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Lamplighter
Nov 4th 2008, 10:12 PM
This thread is not a science thread, but rather a discussion on what you think scripture leans more towards on the age of the Universe. By using scripture alone, does the Universe appear to be Billions of years old, or thousands of years old? If there is already a thread on this, sorry for the repeat.

If you already believe in the authority of man made science theories, over the Word of God, then you don't need to worry about this thread, it is opposite of your theological beliefs anyway. This is an authority of scripture over man's ideas thread.

markedward
Nov 4th 2008, 10:28 PM
Young universe.

Old Earther
Nov 4th 2008, 10:30 PM
By using scripture alone, does the Universe appear to be Billions of years old, or thousands of years old?

Neither, for the Scriptures are silent on the issue.



If you already believe in the authority of man made science theories, over the Word of God, then you don't need to worry about this thread, it is opposite of your theological beliefs anyway. This is an authority of scripture over man's ideas thread.

All truth agrees. The word of God will be concord with the truths of science.

Old Earther
Nov 4th 2008, 10:31 PM
Young universe.


Why? Where does the bible say the Earth is young?

markedward
Nov 4th 2008, 10:33 PM
It's your interpretation that the Scriptures are silent on the issue.

It's my interpretation that the Scriptures imply a young earth.

Lamplighter
Nov 4th 2008, 10:42 PM
Why? Where does the bible say the Earth is young?

Where does the Bible say it's billions of years old? You go first.

Lamplighter
Nov 4th 2008, 10:52 PM
My opinion the Biblical text supports a young Earth.

When you add the numbers of years up by the listed ages of the men in Christ's genealogy, you get several thousand years. Christ was alive about 2000 years ago. So as far as the Biblical texts go, it appears the Earth is young according to the genealogy of Christ.

Ok, old Earthers, what scripture do you use to fit billions or several millions of years into Biblical text? Go for it.

jeffweeder
Nov 4th 2008, 11:14 PM
Seems to always come across as young.
The only reason God created the heavens and the earth was for man, and scripture puts man in the garden at the beginning of creation--the foundation of the world

Old Earther
Nov 4th 2008, 11:16 PM
It's my interpretation that the Scriptures imply a young earth


Once again, where does the Bible say the Earth is young?

Old Earther
Nov 4th 2008, 11:17 PM
Where does the Bible say it's billions of years old? You go first.


Re-read my first post in this thread. The Bible is silent on the issue.

Old Earther
Nov 4th 2008, 11:21 PM
When you add the numbers of years up by the listed ages of the men in Christ's genealogy, you get several thousand years. Christ was alive about 2000 years ago. So as far as the Biblical texts go, it appears the Earth is young according to the genealogy of Christ.


Your argument is ultimately based on the assumption that the Genesis accounts of creation are supposed to be taken literally. However, these texts were not intended to be taken literally. To take them literally is to miss the point. Besides, if you want to insist on a literal reading, then how to you reconcile the contradictions between chapter 1 and chapter 2? For instance, the first chapter states that man was created after the animals, whereas the second chapter states the opposite.

Old Earther
Nov 4th 2008, 11:23 PM
The only reason God created the heavens and the earth was for man


Talk about man-centered theology. Why do you believe this?

Athanasius
Nov 4th 2008, 11:29 PM
Besides, if you want to insist on a literal reading, then how to you reconcile the contradictions between chapter 1 and chapter 2? For instance, the first chapter states that man was created after the animals, whereas the second chapter states the opposite.

Do you know what's missing from Genesis 2 that is in Genesis 1? The phrase, "And there was evening and there was morning, one day." (NASB). Could you tell me where in Genesis 2 we're given any indication that the account is to be taken in chronological order according to verse? Chronological order according to verse is quite apparent in Genesis 1... But I'm having a hard time seeing it in Genesis 2; maybe the second chapter is a summary of the first?:rolleyes:

Old Earther
Nov 4th 2008, 11:43 PM
Could you tell me where in Genesis 2 we're given any indication that the account is to be taken in chronological order according to verse?


It's really just a matter of accepting what is right before one's eyes.

Gen 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Gen 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gen 2:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Gen 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. Gen 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. Gen 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Gen 2:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. Gen 2:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

So here is the chronological order, as any unbiased reader can see:

1.God places Adam in the garden.
2.God gives Adam commands.
3.God sees Adam is alone.
4.God creates the animals and brings them to Adam.
5.Adam names the animals.
6.God sees Adam still has not the ideal companionship.
7.God puts Adam to sleep and removes one of his ribs and makes Eve out of the rib.

RJ Mac
Nov 4th 2008, 11:43 PM
There should be a new thread for the Genesis 1 and 2 discussion.


The earth is the center of the universe, everything was created for man.
The sun, moon and stars were created on day 4 for man to mark the seasons.
On day one there was only an empty universe, a lone planet and light, getting us
to realize man is the center of the universe, the focal point, when God is
finished working with man the entire universe shall be rolled up like a scroll and
all the elements will melt, no more physical universe it all disappears and
God's people live with Him in a new creation and the wicked go off to a new
creation as well for all of eternity, away from the presence of God.

The use of the phrase in the beginning dates the world for me. Jesus reminds us
that Adam and Eve were created in the beginning, in that 6 day period Moses
wrote about.

Jn.5:46,47 For if you believed Moses , you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
But if you do not believe his writings how will you believe My words.

RJ

Old Earther
Nov 4th 2008, 11:46 PM
The earth is the center of the universe, everything was created for man.

I can't think of a less humble belief.

The Earth is not the center of our solar system. It is not the center of the galaxy. Yet somehow it is the center of the universe? Where do you get this idea?

jeffweeder
Nov 4th 2008, 11:56 PM
2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;-----(This is speaking past tense ,as birds were created on day 5) ..and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them.


There should be a new thread for the Genesis 1 and 2 discussion.

yes........

Athanasius
Nov 4th 2008, 11:58 PM
It's really just a matter of accepting what is right before one's eyes.

Gen 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Gen 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gen 2:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Gen 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. Gen 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. Gen 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Gen 2:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. Gen 2:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#) And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

So here is the chronological order, as any unbiased reader can see:

1.God places Adam in the garden.
2.God gives Adam commands.
3.God sees Adam is alone.
4.God creates the animals and brings them to Adam.
5.Adam names the animals.
6.God sees Adam still has not the ideal companionship.
7.God puts Adam to sleep and removes one of his ribs and makes Eve out 8.of the rib.

What are you basing the chronology on, simply the order of the verses?

Old Earther
Nov 4th 2008, 11:59 PM
2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;-----(This is speaking past tense ,as birds were created on day 5) ..and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them.


Jeff, I clearly outlined the chronological order of events in Genesis 2. Which part did you disagree with and why? Here it is again:


1.God places Adam in the garden.
2.God gives Adam commands.
3.God sees Adam is alone.
4.God creates the animals and brings them to Adam.
5.Adam names the animals.
6.God sees Adam still has not the ideal companionship.
7.God puts Adam to sleep and removes one of his ribs and makes Eve out of the rib.

jeffweeder
Nov 5th 2008, 12:05 AM
Day 6

1.God places Adam in the garden.
2.God gives Adam commands.
3.God sees Adam is alone.
4.God who had created the animals ,(and the birds the day before), brings them to Adam.
5.Adam names the animals.
6.God sees Adam still has not the ideal companionship.
7.God puts Adam to sleep and removes one of his ribs and makes Eve out of the rib.

markedward
Nov 5th 2008, 12:09 AM
Once again, where does the Bible say the Earth is young?I'm not debating you. I answered the OP's question, so quit trying to challenge me.

Old Earther
Nov 5th 2008, 12:28 AM
What are you basing the chronology on, simply the order of the verses?


Not just that, but the fact that it naturally reads chronologically. In fact, it only makes sense to read it chronologically. For instance, Adam would naturally name the animals after they were brought to him. And the animals would be brought to him after having been created. Look, there is nothing complicated about this. Adam was alone, so God made the animals to keep him company. Then he made Eve. Its so simple that a child would readily understand the order of events.

Old Earther
Nov 5th 2008, 12:30 AM
1.God places Adam in the garden.
2.God gives Adam commands.
3.God sees Adam is alone.
4.God who had created the animals ,(and the birds the day before), brings them to Adam.
5.Adam names the animals.
6.God sees Adam still has not the ideal companionship.
7.God puts Adam to sleep and removes one of his ribs and makes Eve out of the rib.


Not quite.

"And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them"

Clearly, God created the animals when he saw that Adam was lonely.

Athanasius
Nov 5th 2008, 12:41 AM
Not just that, but the fact that it naturally reads chronologically. In fact, it only makes sense to read it chronologically. For instance, Adam would naturally name the animals after they were brought to him. And the animals would be brought to him after having been created. Look, there is nothing complicated about this. Adam was alone, so God made the animals to keep him company. Then he made Eve. Its so simple that a child would readily understand the order of events.

Using your logic and applying it to both accounts:

Genesis 1 - Animals created before man
Genesis 2 - Animals apparently created after man

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Genesis 1 - God didn't want Adam to be lonely, created animals
Genesis 2 - Adan became lonely, God created animals

I'm sorry, but your interpretation of Genesis 2 is strictly eisegetical at this point. Can you show me in the text (not including the order of verses as order of verses does not necessarily intend chronology) where chronological order is stated in Genesis 2? So far all I see is chronology in chapter 1 and a 'recapping of events' in chapter 2.

Noblesurvey
Nov 5th 2008, 12:52 AM
Not just that, but the fact that it naturally reads chronologically. In fact, it only makes sense to read it chronologically. For instance, Adam would naturally name the animals after they were brought to him. And the animals would be brought to him after having been created. Look, there is nothing complicated about this. Adam was alone, so God made the animals to keep him company. Then he made Eve. Its so simple that a child would readily understand the order of events.

Maybe god brought the animals to Adam to be named in the same way God brought the animals to noah to go onto the ark. Are you saying God could't make the animals before Adam because there would be no-one there to name them?

Noblesurvey
Nov 5th 2008, 12:54 AM
Looking at Genesis 2, it seems to be describing Eden, not the whole world... I could be wrong on this though :idea:

Athanasius
Nov 5th 2008, 12:58 AM
Looking at Genesis 2, it seems to be describing Eden, not the whole world... I could be wrong on this though :idea:

That would make things more difficult, I would think.

Old Earther
Nov 5th 2008, 12:59 AM
Using your logic and applying it to both accounts:

Genesis 1 - Animals created before man
Genesis 2 - Animals apparently created after man


Yes, the texts say this.




Genesis 1 - God didn't want Adam to be lonely, created animals


The text does not say that.


Genesis 2 - Adan became lonely, God created animals

Yes, the text says that.


I'm sorry, but your interpretation of Genesis 2 is strictly eisegetical at this point.

How so, exactly?



Can you show me in the text (not including the order of verses as order of verses does not necessarily intend chronology) where chronological order is stated in Genesis 2? So far all I see is chronology in chapter 1 and a 'recapping of events' in chapter 2.


I already outlined the order of events, and you can see with your own eyes that it makes perfect sense. So why don't you tell me what part of my outline is out of order? Here it is again:

1.God places Adam in the garden.
2.God gives Adam commands.
3.God sees Adam is alone.
4.God creates the animals and brings them to Adam.
5.Adam names the animals.
6.God sees Adam still has not the ideal companionship.
7.God puts Adam to sleep and removes one of his ribs and makes Eve out of the rib.

Do you agree that 2 comes after 1? Does 3 come after 2? Go on and explain it away.

Old Earther
Nov 5th 2008, 01:00 AM
Are you saying God could't make the animals before Adam because there would be no-one there to name them?


No, I am simply pointing out the obvious fact that chapter 2 states that the animals were created after Adam.

Athanasius
Nov 5th 2008, 01:21 AM
Yes, the text says that.

Actually no, the text doesn't say that, lets read it again.

Genesis 2:18 (NASB)
18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

The text does not mention Adam becoming lonely. What the text does say, however, is that the LORD God declares, "It is not good for man to be alone". God declaring that it is not good for the man to be alone and the man himself declaring that he is alone are two very different things.

While a significant oversight on your part, it still doesn't reconcile the apparent differences found in the order of creation in Genesis 1 and 2. I actually think the first four verses of Genesis 2 quite clearly state what's going on (a re-counting of creation... In no specific order).

Let's pretend there are no chapter or verse divisions.

God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so. God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

Kind of flows, doesn't it?



How so, exactly?

Reading into the text what isn't said, as I outlined above.



I already outlined the order of events, and you can see with your own eyes that it makes perfect sense. So why don't you tell me what part of my outline is out of order? Here it is again:

1.God places Adam in the garden.
2.God gives Adam commands.
3.God sees Adam is alone.
4.God creates the animals and brings them to Adam.
5.Adam names the animals.
6.God sees Adam still has not the ideal companionship.
7.God puts Adam to sleep and removes one of his ribs and makes Eve out of the rib.

Do you agree that 2 comes after 1? Does 3 come after 2? Go on and explain it away.

The entire outline is out of order... But only because you're trying to put in order an account of creation that was not accounted for chronologically in the first place. It's a recounting of creation (Genesis 1), not a separate creation account, as the first four verses of chapter 2 state.

Lamplighter
Nov 5th 2008, 04:27 AM
It's obvious Adam became lonely for a pet dog, so God created dogs in Genesis 2. Dogs were the last animals created by God, after Adam was created. This sounds about right, no?:hmm:

A dog is man's best friend afterall.:D

RJ Mac
Nov 5th 2008, 04:30 AM
Old Earther states - The earth is not the center of our solar system. It is
not the center of the galaxy. Yet somehow it is the center of the universe?
Where do you get this idea? I can't think of a less humble belief.

Our differences are obvious, you perspective is from the physical world and
my perspective is from a spiritual kingdom. You live by sight, I strive to live
by faith. I know God created this incredible universe for man and when its
time for judgment day, this universe will be destroyed and I look forward to
the new creation that awaits those who look foreword to what awaits His children.

RJ

Lamplighter
Nov 5th 2008, 04:36 AM
Let's see.

New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem are all going to be set up on the 3rd planet from the sun in the Milky Way Galaxy.

Since the eternal kingdom of Christ is going to be on planet Earth, I'd say this makes the Earth the center of the Universe as far as Christ is concerned. And I care more about what Christ thinks, then what any man thinks.

Nihil Obstat
Nov 5th 2008, 05:45 AM
Isa. 45:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=45&verse=18&version=50&context=verse) implies strongly that the earth is YOUNG. - Astro

Lamplighter
Nov 5th 2008, 07:12 AM
Isa. 45:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=45&verse=18&version=50&context=verse) implies strongly that the earth is YOUNG. - Astro

Great scripture. But did he create the Earth to be inhabited in a few days, or in a billion years after he created it? The Bible indicates a few days, but some men would try to cram billions of years in the Bible.

I am truly shocked at how much of the current Darwinian spawned theories are influencing the world view of so many Christians in the disguise of enlightenment and education. It's sad.:cry:

Old Earther
Nov 5th 2008, 04:23 PM
Xel Naga,

Genesis 2:18 (NASB)
18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

There you have it. God said "I will make him a helper..." This means that God had not yet created the animals. No sophistry will get you out of this.

Old Earther
Nov 5th 2008, 04:25 PM
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=45&verse=18&version=50&context=verse)Isa. 45:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=45&verse=18&version=50&context=verse) implies strongly that the earth is YOUNG. - Astro (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=45&verse=18&version=50&context=verse)

How so? Explain.

Athanasius
Nov 5th 2008, 04:25 PM
Xel Naga,

Genesis 2:18 (NASB)
18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

There you have it. God said "I will make him a helper..." This means that God had not yet created the animals. No sophistry will get you out of this.

Come on, now you're stealing my vocabulary. Read the rest of my post.

Old Earther
Nov 5th 2008, 04:45 PM
Read the rest of my post.


I did, and nothing therein addresses the point I made in my last post to you. C'mon, try a bit harder. Some honesty on your part could go a long way.

Athanasius
Nov 5th 2008, 05:45 PM
I did, and nothing therein addresses the point I made in my last post to you. C'mon, try a bit harder. Some honesty on your part could go a long way.



If you don't see where I've addressed you in my previous to last post (and I have), then there's really no point in me going any further with this.

GitRDunn
Nov 5th 2008, 11:27 PM
Isa. 45:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=45&verse=18&version=50&context=verse) implies strongly that the earth is YOUNG. - Astro
Could you elaborate as to how this is because I read it and I see nothing implying either a young or old Earth. Thank you.

Old Earther
Nov 6th 2008, 12:04 AM
Xel Naga,

I beseech you to challenge yourself to re-examine this passage with fresh eyes. When you try to bring your preconceptions to the text as you are doing, you can miss the obvious. Until you can be honest with the text itself, there is no use in me trying to point out what a child can readily see. Don't get me wrong, or I know that you are an intelligent person. Perhaps we can take this up another time. God bless.

Luke34
Nov 6th 2008, 02:35 AM
I don't believe the Bible speaks to either one, as it's not a science textbook. Asking this question is like saying "Is all matter made out of atoms, or not? What does Scripture say?"

RJ Mac
Nov 6th 2008, 03:47 AM
Genesis 2:18 (NASB)
18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

There you have it. God said "I will make him a helper..." This means that God had not yet created the animals. No sophistry will get you out of this.

The only lack of wisdom is this interpretation of the text.

We know God created the birds on day 5, animals on day 6, then man after
the animals. So to interpret this text this way creates a contradiction.

What your saying is, Adam is alone, so God made the animals to be a helper
but no helper could be found amongst the animals, so then God made woman
His last try at satisfying Adam. And people believe this interpretation?
No, because if you can show a contradiction then you simply call the
text a metaphor to explain away the contradiction then teach your
doctrine and wander away from the Truth.

Vs. 19,20 is an insert that simply explains why Adam feels alone, from all the animals
and birds that Adam names, none was a suitable helper. God knew that and Adam had to realize it.

God in His first attempt to make a suitable helper created woman who is the
only perfect helper and God did it right from the first. God did not create
the animals for a helper for men.

It only takes logic to come up with the Truth unless one has an agenda
that one is promoting and then the Word gets real complicated, it has to
so one can teach personal doctrine.

RJ

Old Earther
Nov 6th 2008, 05:21 PM
God in His first attempt to make a suitable helper created woman who is the
only perfect helper and God did it right from the first. God did not create
the animals for a helper for men.

Such dishonesty should have no place in a Christian, but I do understand that we are all sinners.

Let the text speak for itself, rather than inserting your wishes upon the text thereby rendering it unrecognizeable.

Gen 2:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&v=9#comm/18)And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Pretty clear. God saw that man was alone, and created the animals to accompany him.


Gen 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. Gen 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.



Gen 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Gen 2:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Pretty clear. God brings the animals to Adam to be named, but sees that Adam still has nto a companion that was meet for him, so God created Eve out of Adam's rib.

RJ Mac
Nov 6th 2008, 08:05 PM
Such dishonesty should have no place in a Christian, but I do understand that we are all sinners.

As President to be, Mr Obama stated, You can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig.

Mt.7:20 You will know them by their fruits.

Call yourself what you will but I still know what you are.

RJ

BibleGirl02
Nov 7th 2008, 09:41 PM
The Bible supports a young universe. Take a look at the following verse:

Genesis 1:5 NIV God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day.

Clearly the Bible is speaking of 24 hour days when it says there was evening and there was morning, the first day. It does this for all 6 days of creation. Therefore, I must conclude that the universe we live in is a young universe.

GitRDunn
Nov 8th 2008, 02:04 AM
The Bible supports a young universe. Take a look at the following verse:

Genesis 1:5 NIV God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day.

Clearly the Bible is speaking of 24 hour days when it says there was evening and there was morning, the first day. It does this for all 6 days of creation. Therefore, I must conclude that the universe we live in is a young universe.
Yes, but where in the Bible does it say that those days and necessarily 24 hour days as we consider days? God is in eternity so his concept of time is completely different than ours and his days could be any length he wants to say they are.

Also, when the universe first began our solar system's sun wouldn't have existed if you believe in an old universe so this can't even be applied to that.

Lamplighter
Nov 9th 2008, 02:25 AM
Yes, but where in the Bible does it say that those days and necessarily 24 hour days as we consider days?


Gen 1:5 The light is day and the darkness light, and this is the "FIRST" day.

Day + Night = One day. Gen 1:5.

Yukerboy
Nov 9th 2008, 05:20 PM
I believe that the facts must bear out Scripture. Scripture can never be wrong, only our interpretation of it.

Such as when it was proven the earth revolves around the sun. The Scriptures were not wrong, but the way the church had interpreted them.

I believe that beyond a shadow of a doubt, Adam was created 6,000 years ago (give or take a couple centuries).

The earth? Millions, even billions of years old.

In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth.

And the earth became void and without form. (what caused that? I believe there is a huge gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2)

Yuke

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2008, 05:34 PM
In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth.

And the earth became void and without form. (what caused that? I believe there is a huge gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2)
Yuke

Why do you think that?

Yukerboy
Nov 9th 2008, 05:42 PM
I believe that God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning because that is what the Bible says.

I believe that the earth became without form and void because that is what the Bible says.

I believe that there is a huge gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 because that is what the Bible implies.

The Bible talks of cities and such standing before Genesis 1:2. Something happened in between there.

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2008, 05:55 PM
I believe that God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning because that is what the Bible says.

I believe that the earth became without form and void because that is what the Bible says.

I believe that there is a huge gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 because that is what the Bible implies.

The Bible talks of cities and such standing before Genesis 1:2. Something happened in between there.

Where's the implication if you don't mind me asking?

Genesis 1:1-2
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Yukerboy
Nov 9th 2008, 06:03 PM
Something had to happen to make the earth become without form and void.

Genesis doesn't tell us what.

Jeremiah 4 does talk about that time though.

I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2008, 06:18 PM
Something had to happen to make the earth become without form and void.

It couldn't have been created "formless and void"? Whatever it is that phrase means:hmm:



Jeremiah 4 does talk about that time though.

I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 4 is using the language of Genesis, but it isn't describing the earth at that time - read the whole chapter and it's context.

Yukerboy
Nov 9th 2008, 06:25 PM
The only time the earth was without form and void was Genesis 1:2.

God states "I beheld". This is all past tense, the verses before and after this passage are future tense.

Look at the following:

This is what the LORD says:
"The whole land will be ruined,
though I will not destroy it completely."

God basically states "Here's what I saw when the earth was without form and void." then says "I can do it again, though not destroy it completely."

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2008, 06:36 PM
The only time the earth was without form and void was Genesis 1:2.

God states "I beheld". This is all past tense, the verses before and after this passage are future tense.

Look at the following:

This is what the LORD says:
"The whole land will be ruined,
though I will not destroy it completely."

God basically states "Here's what I saw when the earth was without form and void." then says "I can do it again, though not destroy it completely."

The section of Jeremiah 4 you're referencing talks about the destruction of Judah, not what "happened" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 (because nothing happened between these two verses). In fact all of Jeremiah 4 is concerned with the (1) Invasion and (2) Destruction of Judah for its rebellion. Jeremiah 3 discusses the faithlessness of Israel and God's invitation to repentance. This has nothing to do with the creation of the Earth.

...Which is the reason I made a point of saying; what does "formless and void" mean:hmm:

Yukerboy
Nov 9th 2008, 06:48 PM
Isaiah 45:18 states that God did not create the world tohuw and bohuw (without form and void). God said when he beheld the earth tohuw and bohuw (without form and void) that the heavens had no light. That sounds pretty familiar.

God did not create the world void and without form. Therefore, if He did not create it that way, and it was that way, then something happened to make it become that way.

However, if you wish to translate the earth as Judah, the past tense in Jeremiah 4 as a potential future tense and ignore Isaiah 45, that's your call. It's not a salvation issue.

Yuke

Lamplighter
Nov 9th 2008, 07:06 PM
KJV version of Genesis 1:2- And the earth (was) without form, and void

(Was) in the Hebrew is hayah(היה)

It can mean to be, to exist, but it can also mean, come to pass, or fall out.

So God could have created the earth without form and void, or it could have fallen into this condition over time.

Athanasius
Nov 9th 2008, 07:43 PM
Isaiah 45:18 states that God did not create the world tohuw and bohuw (without form and void). God said when he beheld the earth tohuw and bohuw (without form and void) that the heavens had no light. That sounds pretty familiar.

Isaiah 45:18 actually states that God did not create the world in vain - the Hebrew tohuw. You will not actually find "bohuw" in Isaiah 45:18, your "proof text". This still does not remove however your assertion that Isaiah 45:18 seems to suggest that God did not create the earth tohuw (without form), whereas Genesis 1:2 states the earth was tohuw (without form).

Two things can be said about Isaiah 45:18, both of them undermine your assertion.

(1) Isaiah 45:18 in your application - much like Jeremiah - is being taken out of context. If you read Isaiah 45 and it's surrounding chapters you will quickly see that the context of Isaiah 45 is Gods promises in relation to Israel. The message being that God had a purpose in creation and so too does God have a purpose for Israel. The major focusing being that God did not create the earth in vain (tohuw), but to be inhabited.

You are using Isaiah 45:18 as a proof text, taking it out of its context, which is eisegetical and simply bad theology.

(2) What Isaiah is saying in Isaiah 45:18 is this. God created the earth to be inhabited, however, when He initially created the world it was without form; in other words it was without the features that were created on the remaining days of creation - mountains, animals, oceans, people, etc. There is no conflict with Genesis 1 as Genesis 1 says the same thing. The earth was initially formless but as creation progressed it was created with the features we now see it with.



God did not create the world void and without form. Therefore, if He did not create it that way, and it was that way, then something happened to make it become that way.

I believe I addressed this.



However, if you wish to translate the earth as Judah, the past tense in Jeremiah 4 as a potential future tense and ignore Isaiah 45, that's your call. It's not a salvation issue.

As I've been saying, it depends on the context of the verse. Jeremiah 4 is a reference to Judah; Isaiah 45 is a reference to all of Israel. As for whether or not it's a salvation issue, I don't believe it is... Though I never said it was. It is a matter of proper biblical exegesis, however.

Yukerboy
Nov 10th 2008, 06:47 AM
God beheld the earth and it was tohuw yet there were cities but no man.

God states He did not create the world tohuw.

The earth in Genesis 1:2 was tohuw.

These are the facts of what Scripture says.

You are more than welcome to assume what you wish. I will stand by what is stated.

Athanasius
Nov 10th 2008, 07:10 AM
You are more than welcome to assume what you wish. I will stand by what is stated.

What exactly do you mean with your comment, "assume what you wish"? I'm trying to engage you in a study of the scripture you've posted in substantiation of your view - you aren't engaging me; why?

You aren't standing by what is stated, I've shown that much. It's fine though, obviously this isn't something you want to budge on (the view is wrong). Just know that this is a view I'll always refute whenever it's brought up.

Lamplighter
Nov 10th 2008, 09:18 PM
Isaiah 45:18 states that God did not create the world tohuw and bohuw (without form and void). God said when he beheld the earth tohuw and bohuw (without form and void) that the heavens had no light. That sounds pretty familiar.


Isiah 45:18 says that God created the Earth not in vain(tohuw) תהו.

bohuw is nowhere in Isiah 45:18?

Where did you get the idea it was?:confused

liefm
Nov 11th 2008, 11:33 AM
Not just that, but the fact that it naturally reads chronologically. In fact, it only makes sense to read it chronologically. For instance, Adam would naturally name the animals after they were brought to him. And the animals would be brought to him after having been created. Look, there is nothing complicated about this. Adam was alone, so God made the animals to keep him company. Then he made Eve. Its so simple that a child would readily understand the order of events.

Adam wasn't alone, the animals were already with him. His loneliness wasn't based on no creature being with him, even if no creature was with Adam, God is with him. Not to mention the angels. It's not so simple that a child could understand the order of events without any help. Especially if you're trying to reconcile Gen 1 and 2. Otherwise everyone would agree on the same conclusion, if we all were in the same level as a child (intelligently) we would have a hard time understanding (exception: uber child genius':lol: and of course they have to be Baptized and capable of receiving knowledge and understanding from the Spirit if Truth, because the spiritually dead cannot understand what is spiritual :amen:)


I can't think of a less humble belief.

The Earth is not the center of our solar system. It is not the center of the galaxy. Yet somehow it is the center of the universe? Where do you get this idea?

I'll give you a less humble belief: Atheism.


It's really just a matter of accepting what is right before one's eyes.

(http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=11&y=13#)So here is the chronological order, as any unbiased reader can see:

1.God places Adam in the garden.
2.God gives Adam commands.
3.God sees Adam is alone.
4.God creates the animals and brings them to Adam.
5.Adam names the animals.
6.God sees Adam still has not the ideal companionship.
7.God puts Adam to sleep and removes one of his ribs and makes Eve out of the rib.

We shouldn't accept what is written, "right before one's eyes" in Scripture, because if we do, this is an example of what can happen going down that path- Right before our eyes it is written: the wages of sin is death. If we were to read that we would despair, for we know that we have done evil. But it is also written. you have been saved by grace, through faith. Now there is a contradiction (apparently). But the contradiction arises in our fallen mind and understanding, not Scripture. We shouldn't just accept what is directly in our sight, but look through the whole Scripture and the Spirit of God will help us find concord.
No man (with understanding) is unbiased it is impossible. And it isn't innately evil.


Your argument is ultimately based on the assumption that the Genesis accounts of creation are supposed to be taken literally. However, these texts were not intended to be taken literally. To take them literally is to miss the point. Besides, if you want to insist on a literal reading, then how to you reconcile the contradictions between chapter 1 and chapter 2? For instance, the first chapter states that man was created after the animals, whereas the second chapter states the opposite.

"Your argument is ultimately based on the assumption that the Genesis accounts of creation are" not "supposed to be taken literally." ;)

The 1st chapter is a chronological account of the creation of the universe down to Adam. The 2nd chapter is a detailed account of the creation of Man to Woman.

ch.2:8, "...garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed" - God places Adam in Eden.
2:15, "...God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden" - God places Adam in Eden.
In the same paragraph, nevermind a different chapter, there seems to be a contradiction in chronology. The Writer was taking v.8 and expanding the detail of what happened later on in v.15.
As to the man and animals. The animals were created before man in the 1st ch. because it is clear that the 1st ch. works chronologically in space-time. However, in 2:5-6, it's the 3rd day; v.7 states that God formed and made alive man, but we know according to ch.1 that man was not created until the 6th day; v.8 God creates vegetation/plants (garden), but we know that according to ch.1 that vegetation and plants were created in the 3rd day. I'm writing these examples of apparent contradictions (which they are not) because brother, you seem to conclude that man was created before animals in ch.2, for the reason that they (animals) were written after man was.
V.18 states, that it's not good that Adam is alone and that God will make a helper FIT for Adam (which is a foreshadowing of Eve).
V.19 is explaining HOW the animals and birds were formed, not when. For we know that the animals and birds were NOT formed at the same time according to ch.1; they were formed in the 6th and 5th day respectively.
V.20 states the authority that God delegated to Adam; to name. No one else was given that authority except Adam. the v. also stresses that after all the creatures were made, there still wasn't a suitable helper for Adam in creation, and this lack of a suitable helper prepares us for Eve. As God has said that he will create a helper fit for Adam. The animals and birds were not in God's mind as the "helper fit" for Adam, but it was always Eve.

Gen 1:27-28, "27So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
(R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=1&version=47#cen-ESV-27R)) male and female he created them. 28And God blessed them."

"So God created man in his own image,in the image of God he created him;male and female he created them" God created them, but from 2nd chapter, we know that the female was created after the male (since that chapter is a detailed account of man and woman, and the 1st chapter is very concise explanation of the creation of man and woman). 1st chapter, only 2 verses dedicated to the creation of man and woman. 2nd chapter, nearly an entire chapter is used to explain the creation of man to the creation of woman.



Re-read my first post in this thread. The Bible is silent on the issue.

Gen 1:9-13, '9And God said,(G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=1&version=47#cen-ESV-9G)) "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so. 10God called the dry land Earth,[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=1&version=47#fen-ESV-10d)] and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. 11And God said,(H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=1&version=47#cen-ESV-11H)) "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=1&version=47#fen-ESV-11e)] yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth." And it was so. 12The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.'

Clearly it is written as the Earth being made in less than a day and not days or millions of year. The Scripture is not silent.


Xel Naga, Genesis 2:18 (NASB)
18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

There you have it. God said "I will make him a helper..." This means that God had not yet created the animals. No sophistry will get you out of this.

The animals were not created to be Adam's suitable helper. See my reply about the helper and animals in this post.:pray:

Old Earther
Nov 12th 2008, 07:00 PM
The animals were not created to be Adam's suitable helper.


Really?

"And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air..."





It's not so simple that a child could understand the order of events without any help.


Correct!