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Old Earther
Nov 4th 2008, 11:29 PM
This thread is intended to provoke thoughtful discussion amongst believers regarding what doctrines are neccessary for a Christian to believe.

What doctrines must we believe to be saved? Is there a checklist?

JesusReignsForever
Nov 4th 2008, 11:31 PM
Never Mind Doctrines believe the Bible KJV or NKJV is what I suggest

Athanasius
Nov 4th 2008, 11:33 PM
Never Mind Doctrines believe the Bible KJV or NKJV is what I suggest

This is a bad answer.

Old Earther
Nov 4th 2008, 11:36 PM
Never Mind Doctrines believe the Bible KJV or NKJV is what I suggest


A doctrine is an idea. To believe the Bible is to believe the ideas in the Bible. The question is, what Biblical teachings must be believed for salvation?

Old Earther
Nov 4th 2008, 11:36 PM
xel naga,

I'd be interested in any contributions you might have.

Athanasius
Nov 4th 2008, 11:39 PM
xel naga,

I'd be interested in any contributions you might have.

Might have to wait until tomorrow until I get around to it, late where I'm living ;\ But I will get around to it.

JesusReignsForever
Nov 4th 2008, 11:41 PM
This is a bad answer.

according to you. and I dont appreciate you telling me this who are you to tell me anything? People get caught up in doctrines the bible will set a solid foundation unmoveble unshakable because it is grounded in Jesus. Some of these people in this forum are supposedly christians I swear my eye brows are always raised when I read the things these people say out of there mouths. Full of hate and that is so not of God.

watchinginawe
Nov 4th 2008, 11:51 PM
Essentials:

Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in Jesus Christ.

By Grace alone through Faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

Other essentials:

The sinful condition of man

The Holiness of God

The judgment of God

The divinity of Jesus Christ (who Jesus Christ claimed to be, is He able to save us)

The sinless life of Jesus Christ

The crucifixion and burial of Jesus Christ

The resurrection of Jesus Christ

The resurrection of the Saints

The giving of the Holy Ghost (basically, belief in the Spiritual and the person of God the Holy Ghost)

I am sure I may have overstated according to some and altogether missed other obvious doctrines, but this should get the ball rolling.

God Bless!

Athanasius
Nov 4th 2008, 11:51 PM
according to you. and I dont appreciate you telling me this who are you to tell me anything? People get caught up in doctrines the bible will set a solid foundation unmoveble unshakable because it is grounded in Jesus.

I'll answer the who I am first: I'm the person that has to make sure any doctrine, teaching, philosophy or 'way of life' otherwise extrapolated from scripture and 'taught' here is in fact scripturally sound and not heretical. Here's the problem with what you said: the Bible can say anything you want it to say. Takes a poor exegetic and a bad hermeneutic, but most people won't know any better. Heretical beliefs did not pop out of thing air, usually you will find them fully substantiated in the Bible, even those that reference extra-biblical sources.

I'm not accusing you of having a bad hermeneutic, a poor exegetic or teaching something heretical.

Now, if you say 'Follow the Bible because its foundation is solid, immovable and grounded in Jesus', I'll agree with you, but I'll also do two things. I'll firstly point out that you're following doctrine based on 2 Timothy 3:16-17. I'll secondly ask a question: what does the Bible say and how do we know it's saying it? Even in your answer ("never mind doctrine"), you're following doctrine. There is nothing wrong with doctrine, so long as it stays Biblical (which to a degree your advice was).

Doctrines are simply the systematic excogitation of scripture; when scripturally sound they are a good thing, when not, they are bad. We could try answering the question again. Instead of "What doctrines must one believe to be saved?" you could ask, "What does the Bible say one must believe to be saved?" It is the same question.

watchinginawe
Nov 5th 2008, 12:00 AM
I want to add that I personally believe the set of doctrines in order for one to repent, believe, and be saved is minimal and is altogether confirmed by God Himself in the presentation and hearing of the Gospel. An understanding of the doctrines in my previous post are necessary for Christians to answer to anyone who asks for the reason of our hope.

I will stick with the bare essential being saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ and all which is implied by these. I believe that repentance is part of coming to faith.

God Bless!

Butch5
Nov 5th 2008, 04:02 AM
This thread is intended to provoke thoughtful discussion amongst believers regarding what doctrines are neccessary for a Christian to believe.

What doctrines must we believe to be saved? Is there a checklist?

The gospel of the kingdom as preached by Jesus Christ.

Lamplighter
Nov 5th 2008, 04:43 AM
There is only one God - Isaiah 43:10 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_43.htm#10%C2%A0); 44:6 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_44.htm#6%C2%A0),8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_44.htm#8%C2%A0); John 17:3 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_17.htm#These); 1 Cor. 8:5-6 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Cor/1cor_8.htm#1%C2%A0); Gal. 4:8-9 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gal/gal_4.htm#But)
God is a Trinity - 2 Cor. 13:14 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Cor/2cor_13.htm#14%C2%A0); 1 Pet. 1:2 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Pet/1Pet_1.htm#1%C2%A0)
There are no Gods before or after God - Isaiah 43:10 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_43.htm#10%C2%A0)
God knows all things - 1 John 3:20 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1John/1John_3.htm#if)
God is all powerful - Psalm 115:3 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Psalms/Psalm_115.htm#3%C2%A0)
God is everywhere - Jer. 23:23,24 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Jer/Jer_23.htm#23%C2%A0)
God is sovereign - Zech. 9:14 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Zech/Zech_9.htm#14%C2%A0); 1 Tim. 6:15-16 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Tim/1Tim_6.htm#15%C2%A0)
God is spirit - John 4:24 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_4.htm#Spirit)
God created all that exists - Gen. 1:1 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_1.htm#1%C2%A0); Isaiah 44:24 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_44.htm#24%C2%A0)
Spirit does not have a body of flesh and bones - Luke 24:39 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Luke/luke_24.htm#Beh)
God has always been God - Psalm 90:2 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Psalms/Psalm_90.htm#1)
Jesus is God - John 1:1 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_1.htm#In),14 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_1.htm#An); 10:30-33 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_10.htm#I%20a); 20:28 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_20.htm#Thomas); Col. 2:9 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Col/col_2.htm#him); Phil. 2:5-8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Phil/phil_2.htm#th); Heb. 1:8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Heb/Heb_1.htm#But)
Jesus became a man - Phil. 2:5-8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Phil/phil_2.htm#th)
Jesus has two natures: divine and human - Col. 2:9 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Col/col_2.htm#him); 1 Tim. 2:5 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Tim/1Tim_2.htm#er)
Jesus was sinless - 1 Pet. 2:22 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Pet/1Pet_2.htm#22%C2%A0)
Jesus is the only way to God the Father - John 14:6 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_14.htm#him); Matt. 11:27 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_11.htm#are); Luke 10:22 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Luke/luke_10.htm#22%C2%A0)
The Holy Spirit is God - Acts 5:3-4 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_5.htm#But)
The Holy Spirit is not a force. He is alive - Acts 13:2 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_13.htm#2%C2%A0)
The Bible is inspired by God - 2 Tim. 3:16 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Tim/2Tim_3.htm#given)
All people have sinned - Rom. 3:23 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Romans/rom_3.htm#Fo), 5:12 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Romans/rom_5.htm#Much)
Man did not evolve, he was created - Gen. 1:26 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_1.htm#And)
Adam and Eve were real people - Gen. 3:20 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_3.htm#14%C2%A0); 5:1 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_5.htm#1%C2%A0); 1 Tim. 2:13 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Tim/1Tim_2.htm#12%C2%A0)
Death entered the world because of Adam's sin - Rom. 5:12-15 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Romans/rom_5.htm#Much)
Sin separates us from God - Isaiah 59:2 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_59.htm#your)
Jesus died for all our sins - 1 John 2:2 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1John/1John_2.htm#he); 2 Cor. 5:14 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Cor/2cor_5.htm#13%C2%A0); 1 Pet. 2:24 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Pet/1Pet_2.htm#Wh)
Jesus' sacrifice was a substitution, for us - 1 Pet. 2:24 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Pet/1Pet_2.htm#Wh)
Jesus rose from the dead in His physical body - John 2:19-21 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_2.htm#Je)
Those who reject Jesus will go to Hell - Rev. 20:11-15 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_20.htm#And)
Hell is a place of fiery punishment - Matt. 25:41 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_25.htm#he); Rev. 19:20 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_19.htm#20%C2%A0)
Hell is eternal - Matt. 25:46 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_25.htm#go)
The unsaved go to hell forever - Rev. 21:8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_21.htm#8%C2%A0)
Salvation is a free gift of God - Rom. 4:5 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Romans/rom_4.htm#Bu); 6:23 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Romans/rom_6.htm#the); Eph. 2:8-9 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Eph/eph_2.htm#gr)
The Bible is the Word of God - 2 Tim. 3:16 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Tim/2Tim_3.htm#given)
Jesus will return visibly to earth - Acts 1:11 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_1.htm#An)
Christians will be raised from the dead when Jesus returns - 1 Thess. 4:14-17 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Thess/1Thess_4.htm#10%C2%A0)
There will be a rapture (being caught up into the clouds with Jesus) -
1 Thess. 4:14-17 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Thess/1Thess_4.htm#10%C2%A0)
There will be a final judgment - 2 Pet. 3:7 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Pet/2Pet_3.htm#Whe)
The damned will be thrown into a lake of fire - Rev. 20:15 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_20.htm#15)
Satan will be cast into the lake of fire - Rev. 20:10 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_20.htm#And)
There will be a new heavens and a new earth - 2 Pet. 3:13 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Pet/2Pet_3.htm#9%C2%A0); Rev. 21:1 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_21.htm#1%C2%A0)

I'd also like to add the virgin birth. If Christ was not born of a virgin, then he was born of the seed of a man, and therefore not God.

BrckBrln
Nov 5th 2008, 05:15 AM
There is only one God - Isaiah 43:10 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_43.htm#10%C2%A0); 44:6 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_44.htm#6%C2%A0),8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_44.htm#8%C2%A0); John 17:3 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_17.htm#These); 1 Cor. 8:5-6 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Cor/1cor_8.htm#1%C2%A0); Gal. 4:8-9 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gal/gal_4.htm#But)
God is a Trinity - 2 Cor. 13:14 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Cor/2cor_13.htm#14%C2%A0); 1 Pet. 1:2 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Pet/1Pet_1.htm#1%C2%A0)
There are no Gods before or after God - Isaiah 43:10 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_43.htm#10%C2%A0)
God knows all things - 1 John 3:20 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1John/1John_3.htm#if)
God is all powerful - Psalm 115:3 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Psalms/Psalm_115.htm#3%C2%A0)
God is everywhere - Jer. 23:23,24 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Jer/Jer_23.htm#23%C2%A0)
God is sovereign - Zech. 9:14 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Zech/Zech_9.htm#14%C2%A0); 1 Tim. 6:15-16 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Tim/1Tim_6.htm#15%C2%A0)
God is spirit - John 4:24 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_4.htm#Spirit)
God created all that exists - Gen. 1:1 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_1.htm#1%C2%A0); Isaiah 44:24 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_44.htm#24%C2%A0)
Spirit does not have a body of flesh and bones - Luke 24:39 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Luke/luke_24.htm#Beh)
God has always been God - Psalm 90:2 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Psalms/Psalm_90.htm#1)
Jesus is God - John 1:1 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_1.htm#In),14 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_1.htm#An); 10:30-33 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_10.htm#I%20a); 20:28 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_20.htm#Thomas); Col. 2:9 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Col/col_2.htm#him); Phil. 2:5-8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Phil/phil_2.htm#th); Heb. 1:8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Heb/Heb_1.htm#But)
Jesus became a man - Phil. 2:5-8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Phil/phil_2.htm#th)
Jesus has two natures: divine and human - Col. 2:9 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Col/col_2.htm#him); 1 Tim. 2:5 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Tim/1Tim_2.htm#er)
Jesus was sinless - 1 Pet. 2:22 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Pet/1Pet_2.htm#22%C2%A0)
Jesus is the only way to God the Father - John 14:6 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_14.htm#him); Matt. 11:27 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_11.htm#are); Luke 10:22 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Luke/luke_10.htm#22%C2%A0)
The Holy Spirit is God - Acts 5:3-4 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_5.htm#But)
The Holy Spirit is not a force. He is alive - Acts 13:2 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_13.htm#2%C2%A0)
The Bible is inspired by God - 2 Tim. 3:16 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Tim/2Tim_3.htm#given)
All people have sinned - Rom. 3:23 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Romans/rom_3.htm#Fo), 5:12 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Romans/rom_5.htm#Much)
Man did not evolve, he was created - Gen. 1:26 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_1.htm#And)
Adam and Eve were real people - Gen. 3:20 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_3.htm#14%C2%A0); 5:1 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_5.htm#1%C2%A0); 1 Tim. 2:13 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Tim/1Tim_2.htm#12%C2%A0)
Death entered the world because of Adam's sin - Rom. 5:12-15 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Romans/rom_5.htm#Much)
Sin separates us from God - Isaiah 59:2 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_59.htm#your)
Jesus died for all our sins - 1 John 2:2 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1John/1John_2.htm#he); 2 Cor. 5:14 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Cor/2cor_5.htm#13%C2%A0); 1 Pet. 2:24 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Pet/1Pet_2.htm#Wh)
Jesus' sacrifice was a substitution, for us - 1 Pet. 2:24 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Pet/1Pet_2.htm#Wh)
Jesus rose from the dead in His physical body - John 2:19-21 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_2.htm#Je)
Those who reject Jesus will go to Hell - Rev. 20:11-15 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_20.htm#And)
Hell is a place of fiery punishment - Matt. 25:41 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_25.htm#he); Rev. 19:20 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_19.htm#20%C2%A0)
Hell is eternal - Matt. 25:46 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_25.htm#go)
The unsaved go to hell forever - Rev. 21:8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_21.htm#8%C2%A0)
Salvation is a free gift of God - Rom. 4:5 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Romans/rom_4.htm#Bu); 6:23 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Romans/rom_6.htm#the); Eph. 2:8-9 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Eph/eph_2.htm#gr)
The Bible is the Word of God - 2 Tim. 3:16 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Tim/2Tim_3.htm#given)
Jesus will return visibly to earth - Acts 1:11 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_1.htm#An)
Christians will be raised from the dead when Jesus returns - 1 Thess. 4:14-17 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Thess/1Thess_4.htm#10%C2%A0)
There will be a rapture (being caught up into the clouds with Jesus) -
1 Thess. 4:14-17 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Thess/1Thess_4.htm#10%C2%A0)
There will be a final judgment - 2 Pet. 3:7 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Pet/2Pet_3.htm#Whe)
The damned will be thrown into a lake of fire - Rev. 20:15 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_20.htm#15)
Satan will be cast into the lake of fire - Rev. 20:10 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_20.htm#And)
There will be a new heavens and a new earth - 2 Pet. 3:13 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Pet/2Pet_3.htm#9%C2%A0); Rev. 21:1 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_21.htm#1%C2%A0)

I'd also like to add the virgin birth. If Christ was not born of a virgin, then he was born of the seed of a man, and therefore not God.

I think we need to be careful not to go crazy with this. Do you really think believing hell is eternal is a doctrine we must believe in to be saved? I mean, that's like me saying one has to believe in unconditional election for salvation. It may be important but not essential for salvation.

Lamplighter
Nov 5th 2008, 07:04 AM
Do you really think believing hell is eternal is a doctrine we must believe in to be saved?

No, this is not essential to be saved, but it's true none the less, and there is no need for a Christian to deny the truth about Hell's eternity. In Matt 25:46 Christ says the punishment for the wicked is everlasting. The Greek word used in this verse is (aionios) which means: without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be.

Hell is either eternal, or Christ is a liar.

Levin
Nov 5th 2008, 08:47 AM
I think we should look back into history a bit for a good answer. I personally would consider someone orthodox if they affirmed the Apostles Creed:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

However, I think that the whole "descended into hell" thing is debatable, but the rest is solid. I also think that someone should believe in the inerrancy of scripture; I don't know how anyone can come to true knowledge of God any other way, but I'm just going to stick with the Apostle's creed for now.

Levin

thepenitent
Nov 5th 2008, 06:55 PM
This thread is intended to provoke thoughtful discussion amongst believers regarding what doctrines are neccessary for a Christian to believe.

What doctrines must we believe to be saved? Is there a checklist?

Paul answers that question: ""if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Rom 10:9

Yukerboy
Nov 9th 2008, 05:31 PM
Paul answers that question: ""if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Rom 10:9

:agree:

Nail on head. Ditto. This is a good answer. Etc...etc...

BroRog
Nov 9th 2008, 06:12 PM
This thread is intended to provoke thoughtful discussion amongst believers regarding what doctrines are neccessary for a Christian to believe.

What doctrines must we believe to be saved? Is there a checklist?

Since you asked for thoughtful answers, let me insert this thought into the discussion. :)

I think the Biblical picture is that we are saved when we are "born from above", "born again", "born of the spirit" and etc. At the time this takes place, we may hold and affirm all kinds of wrong doctrines and erroneous beliefs. But as we mature in Christ and continue to seek wisdom and knowledge from his word, we change our minds over time and, with the help of the Holy Spirit come to learn the truth about ourselves, our neighbor and our God.

Consequently, I wouldn't say that there are certain doctrines that we must believe in order to be saved. The journey, for some, may begin with an acknowledgment of the simple truth that God exists. And as a man (or woman) walks down the lonely road of faith, he will continue to confront the truth in whatever way Holy Spirit deems necessary to bring that convert along in faith.

It's easy to think of Christianity as the communion of those who have answered "yes" on a test. Jesus is Lord? Yes. Jesus born of a virgin? Yes. Jesus rose from the dead? Yes. But Christianity is also confronting certain issues that our Lord made important. Are we humble? Are we "first seeking the kingdom"? Do we fear God? Do we love God? Have we repented? Do we continue to persevere under trial?

Yukerboy
Nov 9th 2008, 06:33 PM
My favorites are:

Old earth/young earth.
Free Will/TULIP
Rapture/Non-Rapture/Pre-mid-post

I've been on each side of each of these. I've always loved pointing out that these were not salvation issues, and how those who are so determined to push their views will tell you that their side is backed by the Bible so if you believe the opposite side, you don't believe in the Bible and are therefore unsaved.

I guess that's just a longer way of saying I agree with Brorog on "I wouldn't say that there are certain doctrines that we must believe in order to be saved"

crawfish
Nov 9th 2008, 10:40 PM
I'm a bit unnerved that so many people seem to think that salvation depends on more than our acceptance of God's grace. There are certainly things I think are important to our full submission to Christ - repentance, confession, baptism - but I do not have the perspective or wisdom to possibly judge anybody who felt that God had granted His grace to them, even without doing those things.

I also don't believe God depends on perfect understanding to be saved. Do we need to search all our lives for the perfect denomination, the perfect church, one that you can know is correct in all ways? Good luck, I've never found one. And if you did attempt that search, it would likely distract you from the true mission that God has given to us all:

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Lamplighter
Nov 10th 2008, 09:32 PM
I also don't believe God depends on perfect understanding to be saved. Do we need to search all our lives for the perfect denomination, the perfect church, one that you can know is correct in all ways? Good luck, I've never found one. And if you did attempt that search, it would likely distract you from the true mission that God has given to us all:


This is so true brother.

DaveS
Nov 11th 2008, 03:11 AM
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Faith in the substitutionary, atoning death and in the resurrection of Christ, these are the 'doctrines' "by which ye are saved". These are the doctrines which if not held, render all else "believing in vain".

liefm
Nov 11th 2008, 06:39 AM
Hi brothers and sisters, and et al,

Justification and Sanctification (2 VERY important doctrines)
Apostle's Creed, Athanasian Creed, and Nicene Creed (3 Very Important Ecumenical Creeds)

"17. Holy Scripture sums up all its teachings regarding the love of God to the world of sinners, regarding the salvation wrought by Christ, and regarding faith in Christ as the only way to obtain salvation, in the article of justification. Scripture teaches that God has already declared the whole world to be righteous in Christ, Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:18-21; Rom. 4:25; that therefore not for the sake of their good works, but without the works of the Law, by grace, for Christ's sake, He justifies, that is, accounts as righteous, all those who believe, accept, and rely on, the fact that for Christ's sake their sins are forgiven. Thus the Holy Ghost testifies through St. Paul: "There is no difference; for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," Rom. 3:23, 24. And again: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law," Rom. 3:28.
18. Through this doctrine alone Christ is given the honor due Him, namely, that through His holy life and innocent suffering and death He is our Savior. And through this doctrine alone can poor sinners have the abiding comfort that God is assuredly gracious to them. We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion all doctrines whereby man's own works and merit are mingled into the article of justification before God. For the Christian religion is the faith that we have forgiveness of sins and salvation through faith in Christ Jesus, Acts 10:43.
19. We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion not only the doctrine of the Unitarians, who promise the grace of God to men on the basis of their moral efforts; not only the gross work-doctrine of the papists, who expressly teach that good works are necessary to obtain justification; but also the doctrine of the synergists, who indeed use the terminology of the Christian Church and say that man is justified "by faith," "by faith alone," but again mix human works into the article of justification by ascribing to man a co-operation with God in the kindling of faith and thus stray into papistic territory." -http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2681 (quote is from this site; about Justification)



Shorter Answer: For someone who have never heard the Gospel; what they must do is hear
or read the Good News and allow (even this is from God, for every good and pure thing has it's origin from Him; the Most High that is. Therefore we can't boast or confess that we, by ourselves without God's grace have allowed the Spirit of Christ to bring us into salvation. It is only because of His love, grace, and mercy that we're even able to "allow") the Holy Spirit to work through the words being transmitted in either form, or any other.
That Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, suffered and died for our sins, was resurrected for our salvation (showing the Father's acceptance of Christ sacrifice and atonement), and sits in God's right hand in Glory and Power, where he will judge the living and the dead.

Mark 13:13, "And you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." (bold applied) SANCTIFICATION***

Mark 16:16, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but(D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:16;&version=47;#cen-ESV-24881D)) whoever does not believe will be condemned." (bold applied) Not absolutely necessary (baptism), however, if a person heard the Gospel and does NOT want to be baptize in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, I would be doubtful of their salvation. But if a person is near death and for some reason can't be baptized and then dies, if they had have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ (God and Man) and what God has done for us sinners, it is enough to be saved.
John 14:6, 'Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'

Acts 16:30-31, '30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."' (bold applied)

Rom 8:23-25, "Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently." (bold applied)

Rom 10:8-10, 'But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=10&verse=8&end_verse=10&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-28182a)] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.' (bold applied)

1 Cor 15:1-3, "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-28706a)]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures," (bold applied)


Eph 2:8, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—" (bold applied)


Tit 3:4-6, "But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior," (bold applied)


2 Thes 2:10-11, "and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie" (bold applied)


Heb 10:39, "But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls." (bold applied)

liefm
Nov 11th 2008, 08:31 AM
There are certainly things I think are important to our full submission to Christ - repentance, confession, baptism - but I do not have the perspective or wisdom to possibly judge anybody who felt that God had granted His grace to them, even without doing those things.

If a lost sheep is in a cult, false religion/personal belief, etc. should we not guide them to the Truth by the power of the Spirit of Truth, according to the inerrant Word? The Holy Spirit uses 3 tools (Sacraments) in these Last Days for salvation and sanctification; namely, The Word, Baptism, and the Lord's Supper. These are the means of Grace.


I also don't believe God depends on perfect understanding to be saved. Do we need to search all our lives for the perfect denomination, the perfect church, one that you can know is correct in all ways? Good luck, I've never found one. And if you did attempt that search, it would likely distract you from the true mission that God has given to us all:

I'd like to first address a different issue (though it's related to the question). Belief and Faith. Belief: does not have to do with the Triune God, or Hope.We can believe in some things that we can see, touch, smell, etc.
Faith: has to do with God, a gift from God alone (we can't produce it by ourselves). It is the assurance or deed (as in a land/property deed) of things hoped for, things we can't see (Rom 8:24-25, Heb 11:1-3).

Whatever the means that is used to transmit the Gospel, the receiver must
understand what he is hoping for, that is Jesus Christ (and who this Jesus Christ is: 2nd person of the Trinity [VERY important doctrine]; God and man, now and forever) suffered and died for our sins (that is just the beginning for some, or they were baptized first as their beginning in the narrow road, where a few walk by faith).
The Bride is not perfect right now, only when Christ returns and makes everything new, will she be perfect.


I think the Biblical picture is that we are saved when we are "born from above", "born again", "born of the spirit" and etc. At the time this takes place, we may hold and affirm all kinds of wrong doctrines and erroneous beliefs. But as we mature in Christ and continue to seek wisdom and knowledge from his word, we change our minds over time and, with the help of the Holy Spirit come to learn the truth about ourselves, our neighbor and our God.

I agree that a person can begin with wrong doctrine/beliefs, BUT when God causes them to die and they still don't have the Truth, then it is too late for them to be saved. They have refused God's gracious and merciful calling, but preferred to listen, read, (or any other means to receive knowledge) to wicked and ungodly information. They listen to things that only affirm their wickedness and that only tingle their ears. Like attracts to like. What does good have in common with evil?
Can someone be, '"born from above", "born again", "born of the spirit"', while holding heretical/wrong doctrines or beliefs? Such as that Jesus Christ is not the only begotten Son of God, but that there are many begotten "Sons"?; or that Christ was not the begotten Son of God. etc and be saved?
There are essential doctrines to be held in faith.
If someone new said that they believed that Jesus Christ, suffered and died for our sins, [2]but if he was later told that Jesus Christ is Both God and man, the only begotten Son of God, the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity, and refused to believe. If he were to die, he would die in his sins. His spirit was never alive or regenerated by the Holy Spirit, for it is written that the natural man does not accept the things from God, or can understand spiritual things, because they are spiritually discerned. If however, no one told him of [2], then our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ would know if that man was part of his flock and not a goat; if Jesus knew him. For it is written,

"On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you;depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" (bold applied)


And as a man (or woman) walks down the lonely road of faith, he will continue to confront the truth in whatever way Holy Spirit deems necessary to bring that convert along in faith.


No one can begin to walk in the road of faith, without God in them, without understanding some essential doctrines. Before setting the first step in the first brick of the road of faith( gift of God), the Holy Spirit is calling and urging sinners to come to a right understanding of Him, to lead them to the road and to empower them to persevere and grow in the Truth, walking in the narrow road, until their race is over.

watchinginawe
Nov 11th 2008, 01:13 PM
The Holy Spirit uses 3 tools (Sacraments) in these Last Days for salvation and sanctification; namely, The Word, Baptism, and the Lord's Supper. These are the means of Grace.I'm not sure I understand the mixing in of "tools" and "means" with the later two of these.

For the first, the Word, allowing that you mean the Gospel, then I agree that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth (or hears, believes, and continues in faith) (Romans 1:16). I'm not sure that I remember ever seeing the Gospel referred to as a sacrament though. I'm not sure that fits.

For Baptism, I concede that there are differences of opinion and the side of difference that I fall on is that baptism is a sacrament but not a "means". I also do not believe that grace is conferred in absence of belief (infant baptism) nor conditionally or through the rite of water baptism. I think we can skip that discussion unless you feel that belief in baptism is an essential doctrine (means) of salvation.

Regarding the Lord's Supper, can you expand on your thoughts regarding how grace is conferred in this rite?

God Bless!

crawfish
Nov 11th 2008, 01:43 PM
If a lost sheep is in a cult, false religion/personal belief, etc. should we not guide them to the Truth by the power of the Spirit of Truth, according to the inerrant Word? The Holy Spirit uses 3 tools (Sacraments) in these Last Days for salvation and sanctification; namely, The Word, Baptism, and the Lord's Supper. These are the means of Grace.


I didn't say we shouldn't continue to seek the truth, or not teach it to others. I believe what I believe for good reasons, and I will defend it and I will teach it. A heart open to God will have the humility to change its belief if it finds it is in error. I will, however, not judge the saved status of any other Christian - that is God's work.

I would argue with you about the sacraments, though. They are tools of obedience, not grace.

JesusPhreak27
Nov 11th 2008, 02:22 PM
Paul answers that question: ""if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Rom 10:9


:agree:

What he said! That is ALL that is "REQUIRED" now our hearts and actions should change after we submit ourselves but in many situations people's hearts and actions dont.

That is where the different levels of heaven that Paul talks about come into play....

BroRog
Nov 11th 2008, 02:33 PM
I agree that a person can begin with wrong doctrine/beliefs, BUT when God causes them to die and they still don't have the Truth, then it is too late for them to be saved. They have refused God's gracious and merciful calling, but preferred to listen, read, (or any other means to receive knowledge) to wicked and ungodly information. They listen to things that only affirm their wickedness and that only tingle their ears. Like attracts to like. What does good have in common with evil?

The OP asks about the content of our faith in terms of a prerequisite belief, stated in the positive. What must we believe? You have raised an entirely different question, stated in the negative, i.e. the truths and doctrines we reject. If you ask me, "does a man need to know that it was Jesus who saved him?", I would have to say, "no, God is saving men and women who don't necessarily know the story about Jesus." But if you ask me, "having heard the story about Jesus and having rejected him, is that man saved?", the answer is "no, he has rejected the only true son of God."

See the difference?

We are judged based on the truths we reject, not based on how much we know.


Can someone be, '"born from above", "born again", "born of the spirit"', while holding heretical/wrong doctrines or beliefs? Such as that Jesus Christ is not the only begotten Son of God, but that there are many begotten "Sons"?; or that Christ was not the begotten Son of God. etc and be saved?

The answer is yes, since he has been born again. This is a critical distinction that we can't take lightly. A person does not birth themselves, his new birth is an activity of God on his behalf. And God says that when he gives birth, he always brings the birth to full term.


There are essential doctrines to be held in faith.
If someone new said that they believed that Jesus Christ, suffered and died for our sins, [2]but if he was later told that Jesus Christ is Both God and man, the only begotten Son of God, the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity, and refused to believe. If he were to die, he would die in his sins.

Why did you choose this particular doctrine to emphasize? Do we have only one essential doctrine? Why does belief in the efficacy of Jesus death on the cross take a back seat to the Trinity doctrine? Are you saying that Jesus death and resurrection are secondary to the Trinity doctrine?

Interesting.


His spirit was never alive or regenerated by the Holy Spirit, for it is written that the natural man does not accept the things from God, or can understand spiritual things, because they are spiritually discerned.


We seem to be getting to your essential point, which is, that the acceptance or rejection of the Trinity Doctrine is the litmus test of whether or not a man is truly saved, which you assert is a doctrine that only the regenerate can affirm.

Again, I find your emphasis on this one particular doctrine very interesting, and curious as if you are suggesting that the natural man is fully capable of making affirmation of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, but it takes a true rebirth in order to affirm the Trinity Doctrine.

liefm
Nov 12th 2008, 01:19 AM
Mal 2:5-9, 'My covenant with him was one of life and peace, and I gave them to him. It was a covenant of fear, and he feared me. He stood in awe of my name. 6 True instruction was in his mouth, and no wrong was found on his lips. He walked with me in peace and uprightness, and he turned many from iniquity. 7For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and people should seek instruction from his mouth, for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8But you have turned aside from the way. You have caused many to stumble by your instruction. You have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says the LORD of hosts, 9and so I make you despised and abased before all the people, inasmuch as you do not keep my ways but show partiality in your instruction."' (Bold and italics added)

Ps 101:3, 7, "3 I will not set before my eyes anything that is worthless. I hate the work of those who fall away; it shall not cling to me.", "7 No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house..."

Mt 10:32-33, '32(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2010:32-33;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-23450A)) So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33but(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2010:32-33;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-23451B)) whoever denies me before men,(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2010:32-33;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-23451C)) I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven'; 24:10, "And then many will fall away[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2024:10;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#fen-ESV-23964a)] and(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2024:10;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-23964A)) betray one another and hate one another.";12, "And because lawlessness will be increased,(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2024:12;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-23966A)) the love of many will grow cold." Rev 3:16, "So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth"
Heb 12:16-17, "that no one is(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=heb%2012:16-17;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-30212A)) sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=heb%2012:16-17;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-30213B)) afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears."
2 Pe 2:20, "For if,(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Pe%202:20;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-30504A)) after they have escaped the defilements of the world(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Pe%202:20;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-30504B)) through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome,(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Pe%202:20;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-30504C)) the last state has become worse for them than the first."

2 Cor 13:5, "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith.(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Cor%2013:5;&version=47;31;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-29032A)) Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Cor%2013:5;&version=47;31;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-29032B)) Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!"
2 Thes 2:10, "and with all wicked deception for(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thes%202:10;&version=47;31;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-29655A)) those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."
1 Ti 4:1, "Now(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Ti%204:1;&version=47;31;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-29732A)) the Spirit expressly says that(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Ti%204:1;&version=47;31;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-29732B)) in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Ti%204:1;&version=47;31;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-29732C)) deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,"



The OP asks about the content of our faith in terms of a prerequisite belief, stated in the positive. What must we believe? You have raised an entirely different question, stated in the negative, i.e. the truths and doctrines we reject. If you ask me, "does a man need to know that it was Jesus who saved him?", I would have to say, "no, God is saving men and women who don't necessarily know the story about Jesus." But if you ask me, "having heard the story about Jesus and having rejected him, is that man saved?", the answer is "no, he has rejected the only true son of God."

See the difference?

We are judged based on the truths we reject, not based on how much we know.

Hi brother, we must believe that Jesus Christ suffered and died for our sins (a starting point; the prerequisite or minimum belief, if however they were to later on encounter and reject essential doctrine i.e. Jesus is God and man, the only begotten Son, then we agree that he is not saved).
2 Thes1:8-9,"in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thes1:8-9;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-29641B)) who do not know God and on those who(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thes1:8-9;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-29641C)) do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will suffer the punishment of(D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thes1:8-9;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-29642D)) eternal destruction,(E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thes1:8-9;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-29642E)) away from[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thes1:8-9;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#fen-ESV-29642a)] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,"




The answer is yes, since he has been born again. This is a critical distinction that we can't take lightly. A person does not birth themselves, his new birth is an activity of God on his behalf. And God says that when he gives birth, he always brings the birth to full term.

I agree, we shouldn't take salvation lightly. Can we not reject Grace? yes, we can. They may have once been in the Truth, but they chose to reject the Truth, by holding on to heretical beliefs, then when they die; they fall into condemnation, showing that they never were known by Jesus Christ. Was not Satan, been in the Truth, but he chose to reject the Truth, and he was condemned, even more so for him because of his knowledge and understanding of God was great, he fell from a great height. Satan knew God, he is a better theologian than any of us, yet it is not enough to intellectually acknowledge God or the Truth, It is written, even the demons believe in God- and shudder. They believe in in our Lord Jesus, yet salvation is not theirs. Or Judas Iscariot who was one of the Twelve, yet he is in Hell. It is written, 1 Jn 2:19,
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Jn%202:19;&version=47;31;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-30553B)) if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out,(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Jn%202:19;&version=47;31;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-30553C)) that it might become plain that they all are not of us." , 24, "Let(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Jn%202:24;&version=47;31;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-30558A)) what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Jn%202:24;&version=47;31;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-30558B)) you too will abide in the Son and in the Father."

I believe that people can fall from grace, in their own fault. For it is written, that God desires all men to be saved.
It is written that if you don't abide in Christ and in His love, then you will be cut off from the Vine and thrown into everlasting fire. Abide in His love to the end.

"God says that when he gives birth, he always brings the birth to full term",
Brother, I've read something similar to that in the Word, can you please find the verse?:pray:



Why did you choose this particular doctrine to emphasize? Do we have only one essential doctrine? Why does belief in the efficacy of Jesus death on the cross take a back seat to the Trinity doctrine? Are you saying that Jesus death and resurrection are secondary to the Trinity doctrine?

Interesting.

Brother, I have not chosen to emphasize a particular doctrine (which I believe you think that it's only the Trinity)yet, I wrote, "There are essential doctrines to be held in faith." not there is one.
From what I gather from your quote above, you seem to have thought that I gave, "Jesus death on the cross take a back seat to the Trinity doctrine", If you would re-read my post, I wrote, "Jesus Christ is Both God and man, the only begotten Son of God, the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity", I was witting about Jesus Christ and His Divinity, as well as His manhood, the Trinity was last on the sentence. My focus was on Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour, and not on the Trinity. I wrote of the Trinity last at the sentence because, It is an essential doctrine when one encounters it. But
not absolutely necessary to be saved. But if one does encounter the Trinity, and then rejects it, I would be in serious doubt as to their salvation and try to bring them back to the Way. Because, The Father sent the Son, the Son atoned for our sin, and the Holy Spirit sanctifies us and helps us persevere to the end in the Truth. They all are our Salvation and have roles to play.


We seem to be getting to your essential point, which is, that the acceptance or rejection of the Trinity Doctrine is the litmus test of whether or not a man is truly saved, which you assert is a doctrine that only the regenerate can affirm.

Again, I find your emphasis on this one particular doctrine very interesting, and curious as if you are suggesting that the natural man is fully capable of making affirmation of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, but it takes a true rebirth in order to affirm the Trinity Doctrine.

Look at my above reply. I have yet to express my, "essential point(s)" [s added]. I'm sorry brothers and sisters for not being clear or concise, please forgive me:):pray:
The natural man, cannot in and by himself, accept Christ death and resurrection, for to him, it is folly, neither can he understand the things of the Spirit, for he is spiritually dead (The Holy Spirit hasn't entered him and it is God who reveals to us the spiritual, not the natural man, for he wars against God). Never mind the Trinity, we need to know and recieve the Gospel of Christ first, then can we begin to grow and abide in our Lord Jesus Christ.


I didn't say we shouldn't continue to seek the truth, or not teach it to others. I believe what I believe for good reasons, and I will defend it and I will teach it. A heart open to God will have the humility to change its belief if it finds it is in error. I will, however, not judge the saved status of any other Christian - that is God's work.

I would argue with you about the sacraments, though. They are tools of obedience, not grace.

Hi brother,

What do you mean "tools of obedience, not grace."?

The Sacraments according to the Lutheran Confessions are; Baptism, Absolution, and Holy communion/Lord's Supper.
They are grace because they come from God for our salvation and sanctification. It (Sacraments) is not something man has made, but they are rites commanded by God with the promise of grace.

Is it not written, that those who call themselves Christian, but from their actions and beliefs, are not, that we should have nothing to do with them (after we have warned them several times and bring them to the authorities of the Church, to try to bring them back to the faith, and they persist and spread their lies and own ideas), to excommunicate them, for the purpose that the Devil may inflict harm to him, that he may repent of his sins and come back to the Church. If left unchecked their fathers yeast will work through the whole batch of dough, corrupting and if possible removing the remnant of Christianity, that it no longer is Christianity, but a watered-down belief, without God.



I'm not sure I understand the mixing in of "tools" and "means" with the later two of these.

For the first, the Word, allowing that you mean the Gospel, then I agree that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth (or hears, believes, and continues in faith) (Romans 1:16). I'm not sure that I remember ever seeing the Gospel referred to as a sacrament though. I'm not sure that fits.

For Baptism, I concede that there are differences of opinion and the side of difference that I fall on is that baptism is a sacrament but not a "means". I also do not believe that grace is conferred in absence of belief (infant baptism) nor conditionally or through the rite of water baptism. I think we can skip that discussion unless you feel that belief in baptism is an essential doctrine (means) of salvation.

Regarding the Lord's Supper, can you expand on your thoughts regarding how grace is conferred in this rite?

God Bless!

Hi brother,
I'm sorry about writing the Word being a Sacrament, I had it confused with Absolution. I used the word "means, tools" for the purpose of explaining the how the Holy Spirit works for salvation and sanctification. The Holy Spirit comes to a person in Baptism and Lord's Supper (LS). For baptism to usher in the person in the Way, for the LS for sanctification (you can think of it as ultra rich spiritual food, for our growth in Christ).

I think Baptism is an essential doctrine, because it is written, that it is necessary for salvation (Baptism is one of two ways, the other is hearing/receiving the Gospel of peace. A person is either baptized as a baby, and grows in knowledge of the Gospel and Truth; or hears/receives the Gospel, then is later baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) (Mark 16:16), that God's grace is offered as a free gift to us in Baptism (Tit 3:4-7), that children should be baptized (Acts 2:38-39). Infants are to be baptized because salvation is offered in Baptism, by God's grace.

The Lords Supper. 1st I'd like to write that Baptism and the Gospel is what the Spirit of Truth uses to usher people in the narrow road. Absolution and the LS, is used for Sanctification. Again Baptism, Absolution, and the LS are grace from God because He commanded them for our salvation and sanctification by grace.
Grace is conferred in the LS, when we accept firmly by faith that our sins our forgiven us, for the sake of Jesus Christ alone, and not by works. That His body and blood are truly present in this sacrament (1 Cor 10:15-16; Mat 26:26-28; 1 Cor 11:26-28).
At least 3 purpose of the LS: to publicly proclaim Christ's death, assurance of the forgiveness of sins, and spiritual strength and rest.

There are those also who should not eat and drink the LS, as it is written, 1 Cor 11:28-29, 10:21; Acts 2:42; Matt 5:23-24; Rom 16:17.

God's blessings brothers!:pray:

liefm
Nov 12th 2008, 01:20 AM
If anyone is interested about the Sacraments or in the teaching and confession of Lutheran doctrine, I suggest you start with The Augsburg Confession and It's Apology. The Small and Large Catechism.

'If we call Sacraments "rites that have the command of God, and to which the promise of grace has been added," it is easy to decide what are the true Sacraments. For rites instituted by human beings will not be called true Sacraments. For human authority cannot promise grace....signs set up without God's command are not signs of sure grace, even though signs perhaps instructs the unlearned or admonish about something. Therefore, Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution (which is the Sacrament of Repentance) are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God's command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament....It has been well said by Augustine that a Sacrament is a visible Word, because the rite is received with the eyes and is, as it were, a picture of the Word, illustrating the same thing as the Word. The result of both is the same. (Ap Xlll 3-5)
It is more important to understand how the Sacraments are to be used....So we teach that in the use of the Sacraments, faith should be added. Faith should believe these promises and received the promise things offered in the Sacrament. The reason is plain and thoroughly grounded. The promise is useless unless it is received by faith. The Sacraments are signs of the promises.... What advantage would these miracles an promises be to an unbeliever? Here we speak of special faith that believes the present promise that the forgiveness of sins is offered. This use of the Sacrament consoles godly and alarmed minds. (Ap Xlll 18-22)' - The Augsburg Confession and It's Apology study guide, pg 76-77.

watchinginawe
Nov 12th 2008, 01:42 AM
A person is either baptized as a baby, and grows in knowledge of the Gospel and Truth;I would like to examine two cases here. One, the child who is not baptized but grows in knowledge of the Gospel and Truth; and two, the child who is baptized but does not grow in knowledge of the Gospel and Truth. It seems that baptism is not the difference maker IMO. It is growing in knowledge of the Gospel and Truth that is the difference maker.

II Tiomothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

God Bless!

kenrank
Nov 19th 2008, 04:01 PM
Many have added so much to the message of salvation. Here is where the ministry of Yahushua (Jesus) started:

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

The message is to repent, to turn away from ANY practice that is not centered around the one true God of the scriptures.

Many say that salvation begins with a prayer by a sinner. I disagree! Why would one who is not a believer pray for anything? Why would one who has not repented (turned away from) false practices or worldy lusts say a sinner's prayer? Answer, they wouldn't. Going from unbelieving to believing, going from an un-repented life to one focused on the God of Scripture is step one. You have to take that step before you would even be willing to confess or ask anything of God.
Peace.
Ken

RabbiKnife
Nov 19th 2008, 04:05 PM
1. God is God and I am not.
2. I trust God for my eternal life even if I don't understand anything else about it or how that happens.

I think God can take care of the rest. If there is anything more specific than that, I think God can get me to that point.

liefm
Nov 20th 2008, 03:06 AM
I would like to examine two cases here. One, the child who is not baptized but grows in knowledge of the Gospel and Truth; and two, the child who is baptized but does not grow in knowledge of the Gospel and Truth. It seems that baptism is not the difference maker IMO. It is growing in knowledge of the Gospel and Truth that is the difference maker.

II Tiomothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

God Bless!



I'm currently in another forum, when this came up, you may find it useful,

"I might also submit P Baseleys book.

"See, barely is a person born

into the kingdom of sins and death through his physical birth, when God

also receives him into the lap of his mercy in holy Baptism and bears him

again through holy Baptism, as a child of God and a citizen of his heavenly

kingdom, without him doing anything else, yes, even without his knowing

anything about it.

But you will say, what good does that do us? Haven’t we lost the

Holy Ghost, who has been poured out on us abundantly in holy Baptism,

and with it the life that is from God, and haven’t we fallen again into the

kingdom of sins and of death? It is, my friends, unfortunately, all too true,

that almost all people, who have been born again through holy Baptism as

children, have in later years again lost the seed of the second birth from

their hearts through shallowness, sins, heresies and unbelief, and thereby

ceased to be children of God." Dr CFW Walther pg 340

I am reminded of:
Formula of Concord: Solid Declaration, art. ii, par. 67 - [CONVERSION] 69 When the baptized act against their conscience, allowing sin to rule in them, they grieve the Holy Spirit in them and lose Him [Ephesians 4:30]. They do not need to be rebaptized. But they must be converted again, as has been said well enough before.[i][i]



Smalcald Articles- part 3 Definiton of Manifest = –adjective 1. readily perceived by the eye or the understanding; evident; obvious; apparent; plain: a manifest error.


43 So it is necessary to know and to teach this: When holy people—still having and feeling original sin and daily repenting and striving against it—happen to fall into manifest sins (as David did into adultery, murder, and blasphemy [2 Samuel 11]), then faith and the Holy Spirit have left them. 44 The Holy Spirit does not permit sin to have dominion, to gain the upper hand so it can be carried out, but represses and restrains it from doing what it wants [Psalm 51:11; Romans 6:14]. If sin does what it wants, the Holy Spirit and faith are not present. 45 For St. John says, “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning … and he cannot keep on sinning” [1 John 3:9]. And yet it is also true when St. John says, “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” [1:8]." ---- http://www.lutherquest.org/cgi-bin/discus40/show.cgi?13/13 (website where I got the quote). :)

watchinginawe
Nov 20th 2008, 03:19 AM
I'm currently in another forum, when this came up, you may find it useful,

"Formula of Concord: Solid Declaration, art. ii, par. 67 - [CONVERSION] 69 When the baptized act against their conscience, allowing sin to rule in them, they grieve the Holy Spirit in them and lose Him [Ephesians 4:30]. They do not need to be rebaptized. But they must be converted again, as has been said well enough before.[i][i]" ---- http://www.lutherquest.org/cgi-bin/discus40/show.cgi?13/13 (website where I got the quote). :)


Thanks for the post.

I just noticed you added more info. I am glad to read of the Lutheran doctrine of continuing in the Lord and of repentance and faith when we don't. Thanks again.

:hmm: I will say that I used to believe that one should have a "conversion experience" as in being born again Spiritually as an adult. I have come to respect, mostly through interaction in these forums, that there are those who just loved the Lord from even a child and never left. I have further come to respect that as superior to that which I trampled through to come to the Lord, though I wouldn't take anything back on my experience.

God Bless!

RevLogos
Nov 20th 2008, 03:21 AM
Many say that salvation begins with a prayer by a sinner. I disagree! Why would one who is not a believer pray for anything? Why would one who has not repented (turned away from) false practices or worldy lusts say a sinner's prayer? Answer, they wouldn't. Going from unbelieving to believing, going from an un-repented life to one focused on the God of Scripture is step one. You have to take that step before you would even be willing to confess or ask anything of God.
Peace.
Ken


I was saved only about a year and a half ago. Ironically, I had been reading the Qur'an (to come to a better understanding of world politics). I felt the Holy spirit tug at me. Whack me upside the head really. He said: "Hey, you, remember me? Do you know that you now have read more of the Qur'an than the Bible? You know more about Islam than Christianity? How about you start reading the Bible for a change?"

So I did. After 25 years of being a backslidden, lightweight, lukewarm, agnostic and completely lost "Christian", I started reading the Bible. And I was saved.

2Co 9:15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!

The point of all this is that I didn't do anything to be saved. God came to me. Salvation is a gift from God. We don't have to first come to understand and believe all of these doctrines. We have only to open our heart and listen to the Holy Spirit. Let him come in and do his work.

Eph 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.

A free gift from God. It wasn't until after I was saved that I studied Scripture and learned that though the gift was free to me, like a gift card at a store, it was paid for by someone.

matthew94
Nov 20th 2008, 05:41 AM
You must believe that God exists
You must believe that God cares
You must believe that Jesus is who He said He is (Lord, Son of God)
You must believe that Jesus died and rose again

But Christianity is more about FOLLOWING Christ than it is believing perfectly about Christ. As you GO, you'll learn to KNOW more about God. I suspect that anyone following Christ long enough will start to grasp more complex truths like the trinity, justification by grace through faith that works, etc. But the core essentials are listed above.

kenrank
Nov 20th 2008, 12:51 PM
I went back over this thread to read what all the others said. Some of you have quite a list of things we need to believe in to be "saved." The problem is, I don't see a big list of things we need to believe in for you to become a child of the Most High. I see simplicity not doctrine in regards to salvation.

We study to show ourselves approved a workman unto God AFTER we take those initial steps. We drink milk before we eat meat, crawl before we run. Some of the things posted here as items necessary to believe in to be "saved" are meat issues.

Yahushua (Jesus) preached "repent, for the Kingdom of heaven of at hand." We are told we need to believe in Messiah...but I don't see where it says we have to believe he is God in order to be saved? I don't see where we have to believe many of the things listed to be "saved." Those meaty issues is not for salvation, but for your own edification...to build you up so that you have a better working understanding of God and His Word so that he can use you to teach others.

Peace.
Ken

Rufus_1611
Nov 20th 2008, 01:17 PM
...

What doctrines must we believe to be saved? Is there a checklist? The only doctrine one must believe to be saved is the doctrine that one must believe to be saved.

Marc B
Nov 20th 2008, 01:51 PM
Where does it say in scripture that you have to believe in the trinity doctrine to be saved?

kenrank
Nov 20th 2008, 02:06 PM
The only doctrine one must believe to be saved is the doctrine that one must believe to be saved.

Well said! I could have saved myself time and went your route!:B
Ken

kenrank
Nov 20th 2008, 02:08 PM
Where does it say in scripture that you have to believe in the trinity doctrine to be saved?

It doesn't, but you knew that already. Here is one better, I don't think anyone is saved yet. When Messiah returns we are saved, redeemed, changed and made incorruptable. But that is probably semantics, so we can let that go.
Peace.
ken

BroRog
Nov 20th 2008, 02:31 PM
The sacraments are just a man made attempt at religion which have nothing at all to do with Jesus Christ or God the father.

Semi-tortured
Nov 20th 2008, 05:12 PM
You must believe that God exists
You must believe that God cares
You must believe that Jesus is who He said He is (Lord, Son of God)
You must believe that Jesus died and rose again

But Christianity is more about FOLLOWING Christ than it is believing perfectly about Christ. As you GO, you'll learn to KNOW more about God. I suspect that anyone following Christ long enough will start to grasp more complex truths like the trinity, justification by grace through faith that works, etc. But the core essentials are listed above.

This.


Minimum characters needed.

Back2Front
Nov 20th 2008, 11:14 PM
Just be careful of any doctrine that seems to offer you personal license to judge yourself as saved, that allows others to judge you as saved, or that allows you to judge others as saved. Salvation is something that is completely worked out between you and God and one day, like with all of us, God will judge you.

When it all comes down to it, whether or not you pass or fail the test, it is really out of your hands. What is in your hands is whether or not your first willing to take the test, and what tools you're using to study for it.

looking4jesus
Nov 21st 2008, 02:34 AM
It is easy but you need to be careful about mixing works with Grace.
Look it is the Holy Spirit alone that brings a person to Jesus by convicting of their sins and geniune repenting. It is not hard at all but you must allow the Holy Spirit to work inside you. Gods works are Grace

God Bless
Randy

Back2Front
Nov 21st 2008, 03:25 AM
GOD is our judge and we are in a race to heaven and the bible is our rules, if we are to compete and win the prize we must follow the rules. Jesus says if you love me you will keep my commands.

The Disciple

Yep. Yes. Yes sir. :D

Marc B
Nov 25th 2008, 04:44 PM
No, this is not essential to be saved, but it's true none the less, and there is no need for a Christian to deny the truth about Hell's eternity. In Matt 25:46 Christ says the punishment for the wicked is everlasting. The Greek word used in this verse is (aionios) which means: without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be.

Hell is either eternal, or Christ is a liar.

Death is everlasting too.
Rev 14 (http://bible.cc/revelation/20-14.htm) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

How does death equal eternal life in the lake of fire?

RevLogos
Nov 26th 2008, 04:33 PM
So let me ask, is there a difference between what one must believe to be saved, and what one must believe to be Christian?

When I was saved, I had not studied the Bible very much. I didn't know the trinity from the tribulation. I did have faith in God, and I did come to understand that I was inherently evil, and I needed a savior. I had grown up in a Christian country so I knew that Jesus was thought to be a savior. So I prayed to God and asked for his help. I got it, but one of the first things I believe God told me to do was to read the Bible.

I must be thick headed because it took several months after that to understand how Jesus' death could bring salvation to me and others. But understanding intellectually the doctrine around the mechanics of salvation is not quite so necessary as simply having faith and trust salvation is possible.

So I tend to think that from the perspective of only what one must believe to be saved, it is faith in God; it is an understanding that we are inherently evil, and we must have a savior to be reconciled to God; and it is a burning desire to be reconciled to God.

That begs the question, if I had not known the name "Jesus" could I still be saved? I think the answer is yes, but that the Holy Spirit would then lead me to Jesus.

What do you think?

kenrank
Dec 2nd 2008, 02:51 AM
So let me ask, is there a difference between what one must believe to be saved, and what one must believe to be Christian?

When I was saved, I had not studied the Bible very much. I didn't know the trinity from the tribulation. I did have faith in God, and I did come to understand that I was inherently evil, and I needed a savior. I had grown up in a Christian country so I knew that Jesus was thought to be a savior. So I prayed to God and asked for his help. I got it, but one of the first things I believe God told me to do was to read the Bible.

I must be thick headed because it took several months after that to understand how Jesus' death could bring salvation to me and others. But understanding intellectually the doctrine around the mechanics of salvation is not quite so necessary as simply having faith and trust salvation is possible.

So I tend to think that from the perspective of only what one must believe to be saved, it is faith in God; it is an understanding that we are inherently evil, and we must have a savior to be reconciled to God; and it is a burning desire to be reconciled to God.

That begs the question, if I had not known the name "Jesus" could I still be saved? I think the answer is yes, but that the Holy Spirit would then lead me to Jesus.

What do you think?

Want to know what I REALLY think? :) I don't think anyone alive right now is saved....YET. I think we can call ourselves Messianic or Christian...I think we indeed can become a child of God, belong to God. But salvation happens at Messiah's return. That's what I really think.

Now, I don't see salvation as a doctrinal issue...it is a heart issue between a man (or woman) and God. Have you turned away from the lusts of the world and centered your existence on God? If so, regardless of where you are at in knowledge, I think you have met the criteria. Remember what Messiah preached:

Matt 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

That's the message, that's the Good News. We are called to turn away from every aspect of our life that does not center itself on God, and simply make God the centerpiece of our lives. Doctrine, the "studying to show ourselves approved a workman unto God," comes AFTER we repent. Following the commands, being obediant to the will of God...these come after we repent.

Peace.
Ken

dawnpatrol
Dec 5th 2008, 10:37 PM
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:9

4HeavensSake
Dec 14th 2008, 04:09 AM
Joh 6:47 Verily,G281 verily,G281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 He that believethG4100 onG1519 meG1691 hathG2192 everlastingG166 life.G2222

Rom 10:9 ThatG3754 ifG1437 thou shalt confessG3670 withG1722 thyG4675 mouthG4750 the LordG2962 Jesus,G2424 andG2532 shalt believeG4100 inG1722 thineG4675 heartG2588 thatG3754 GodG2316 hath raisedG1453 himG846 fromG1537 the dead,G3498 thou shalt be saved.G4982

Act 2:21 AndG2532 it shall come to pass,G2071 that whosoeverG3956 G3739 G302 shall call onG1941 theG3588 nameG3686 of the LordG2962 shall be saved.G4982

1Jn 5:13 These thingsG5023 have I writtenG1125 unto youG5213 that believeG4100 onG1519 theG3588 nameG3686 of theG3588 SonG5207 of God;G2316 thatG2443 ye may knowG1492 thatG3754 ye haveG2192 eternalG166 life,G2222 andG2532 thatG2443 ye may believeG4100 onG1519 theG3588 nameG3686 of theG3588 SonG5207 of God.G2316

These verses sum it up for me

mccain22
Dec 14th 2008, 05:36 AM
There is no checklist. The only thing is being born again through and belief in what the Lord Jesus Christ is done. Once we enter into that relationship he will teach us through his word as we grow in him.

voicenthewildernes
Dec 21st 2008, 07:56 PM
It is not by works ye are saved. Very simple answer! Any attempt by anyone to follow Doctrine of man or even Doctrine contained in the Bible proclaimed fervently by Paul, also a man will not bring you salvation. The one simplest way to know that you are saved is by hearing Him who has chosen you. Jesus chooses the saved we have no part in that decision. Once Jesus has chosen you it is the will of His Father that He not lose anything He has given to Him. Read the book of John and read a firsthand accounting from a man who walked with Jesus. Upon His return there will no longer be ANY Doctrine of man. Look at the bigger picture. Read the book of John then Revelation. The glory of man is as filthy rags to the LORD. So never think that there is a process of works that gets you to salvation. Jesus has judgment over the entire world. It is through His Holy Spirit that His are Sealed. Being Sealed is the mark of the Lord of who is His and a reassurance to those marked as being saved. This is a hurdle that those who say you can lose your salvation can't get over. John tells us that Jesus will never lose us because God has willed it to be that way.


Voice

Beukeboom
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:34 AM
May I ask one simple question that may or may not matter?

Okay two questions... :)

What doctrines did the criminal on the cross next to Jesus believe or even know when he was saved in the final moments of his life?

I don't mean to be a stick in the mud, but from reading that account it seems obvious to me that the criminal didn't know about the Trinity, didn't know about Jesus' deity, didn't know about doctrines in general but he had faith that Jesus would not allow him to be condemned for all eternity.

So, can someone be saved without knowing a single doctrine other than having faith in Jesus to save them?

Okay, THREE questions...I'm feeling like I'm doing homage to the Monty Python "Spanish Inquisition" sketch. :)

It seems to me, and maybe I'm wrong, I'm just a simple Christian layperson after all, that maybe it's the sincere faith one has in Jesus Christ is what saves you and that learning about Biblically sound doctrine is important in growing as a Christian and is a part of sanctification, right?

Okay...four...FOUR questions....

:rofl:

[Please excuse my sense of humor invading such a serious topic. I truly am not trying to make light of this topic. My questions are sincere. My method is a bit goofy, however.]

RevLogos
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:15 PM
Okay, THREE questions...I'm feeling like I'm doing homage to the Monty Python "Spanish Inquisition" sketch. :)


Okay...four...FOUR questions....

:rofl:


The 3 questions were from the Ogre guarding the bridge weren't they? I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
Our two weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency....
Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...
and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....
Our four... no...
Amongst our weapons... Amongst our weaponry...
are such elements as fear, surprise...
I'll come in again.



[Please excuse my sense of humor invading such a serious topic. I truly am not trying to make light of this topic. My questions are sincere. My method is a bit goofy, however.]Now you are accused of heresy on three counts - heresy by thought, heresy by word, heresy by deed, and heresy by action - four counts. Do you confess? If you don't confess, we will poke you with soft cushions!

RevLogos
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:28 PM
May I ask one simple question that may or may not matter?

Okay two questions... :)

What doctrines did the criminal on the cross next to Jesus believe or even know when he was saved in the final moments of his life?

I don't mean to be a stick in the mud, but from reading that account it seems obvious to me that the criminal didn't know about the Trinity, didn't know about Jesus' deity, didn't know about doctrines in general but he had faith that Jesus would not allow him to be condemned for all eternity.



More seriously....

The criminal knew enough of Jesus to know who He was when he saw him hanging on the cross. He knew he was a retched sinner. He knew that he needed a savior. A few words on the cross is not enough for us to tell what's in his heart, but Jesus knew.

That's the only doctrine he would have known.

When I look back at my own salvation, I didn't know much more than that thief on the cross. I didn't know the trinity from the tribulations.

Had the thief been taken down from the cross, he would have dedicated the remainder of his life to Christ. That's the only way we would know.

Dani H
Dec 22nd 2008, 08:36 PM
John 8:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=8&verse=24&version=50&context=verse)
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Romans 10:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=10&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

John 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

It's not about a doctrine. It's about a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ. To be saved, one would have to believe:

1. God is real.
2. Sin is real.
3. Jesus is real, and what He did is real.
4. That His death and resurrection was enough in order to remove sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness and to put us in a place of fellowship with God, where we are changed from people who at the depths of them actually care about Who God is and what He has to say and how He wants us to live, day in and day out.

It all hinges on the reality of these things, at the very core of it.