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mfowler12
Nov 5th 2008, 03:47 PM
With all of the differing opinions of the end times and rapture time frame, what should we, as Christians, be looking for next according to Scripture? Is Israel going to go to war with Gog and Magog next?

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 5th 2008, 06:10 PM
Zechariah 12

Jerusalem's Enemies to Be Destroyed

An Oracle

1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the LORD. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the LORD Almighty is their God.' 6 "On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
7 "The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
Mourning for the One They Pierced

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%2012%20&version=31#fen-NIV-23056a)] of grace and supplication. They will look on [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%2012%20&version=31#fen-NIV-23056b)] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

vinsight4u8
Nov 5th 2008, 06:17 PM
democracy to fail in Iraq
and the Palestinians to fall

mfowler12
Nov 5th 2008, 07:59 PM
Zechariah 12

Jerusalem's Enemies to Be Destroyed

An Oracle

1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the LORD. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the LORD Almighty is their God.' 6 "On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
7 "The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
Mourning for the One They Pierced

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%2012%20&version=31#fen-NIV-23056a)] of grace and supplication. They will look on [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%2012%20&version=31#fen-NIV-23056b)] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

I read that as the final battle where Jesus, Himself, has made His appearance once again. Do you think the second coming is next?


democracy to fail in Iraq
and the Palestinians to fall

Scripture? I do find your answer interesting. I would ask how you think the democracy would fail? Also, does Israel handle the Palestinians themselves or do you include Palestine with Gog/Magog?

DigReal
Nov 6th 2008, 12:28 AM
With all of the differing opinions of the end times and rapture time frame, what should we, as Christians, be looking for next according to Scripture? Is Israel going to go to war with Gog and Magog next?

Personally, I believe EZ38 & 39 (Gog and Magog) is on our horizon. But the conditions described in Ezekiel don't exist yet. Is17 could certainly lead to those conditions, so the destruction of Damascus is what I'm watching for next.

σяєяυииєя
Nov 6th 2008, 03:12 AM
Hello Fowler12,



what should we, as Christians, be looking for next according to Scripture?

But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Acts 3:18-20.

Well the comming of the Holy Spirit upon the church as it was on the early church is to be fulfilled yet.

Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth. Hosea 6:3.

God bless you

mfowler12
Nov 6th 2008, 02:29 PM
Personally, I believe EZ38 & 39 (Gog and Magog) is on our horizon. But the conditions described in Ezekiel don't exist yet. Is17 could certainly lead to those conditions, so the destruction of Damascus is what I'm watching for next.
What conditions are you referring to?

My heart's Desire
Nov 6th 2008, 05:31 PM
I think Ps 83 and Isaiah 17 first maybe. We'll wait and see of course

mfowler12
Nov 6th 2008, 07:11 PM
I think Ps 83 and Isaiah 17 first maybe. We'll wait and see of course

Who do you think that "6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, of Moab and the Hagrites, 7 Gebal, [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%2083&version=31#fen-NIV-15249a)] Ammon and Amalek, Philistia, with the people of Tyre. 8 Even Assyria has joined them to lend strength to the descendants of Lot." are in this present day?

My heart's Desire
Nov 6th 2008, 07:24 PM
Who do you think that "6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, of Moab and the Hagrites, 7 Gebal, [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%2083&version=31#fen-NIV-15249a)] Ammon and Amalek, Philistia, with the people of Tyre. 8 Even Assyria has joined them to lend strength to the descendants of Lot." are in this present day?
Honestly I don't know. But there are plenty of Nations that are close and surround tiny Israel. I know also that the Philistians no longer exist.

mfowler12
Nov 6th 2008, 07:37 PM
Honestly I don't know. But there are plenty of Nations that are close and surround tiny Israel. I know also that the Philistians no longer exist.
I wonder if Pslam 83 was the six day war in Israel? Does anybody have a thought on that?

IBWatching
Nov 6th 2008, 10:10 PM
Personally, I believe EZ38 & 39 (Gog and Magog) is on our horizon. But the conditions described in Ezekiel don't exist yet. Is17 could certainly lead to those conditions, so the destruction of Damascus is what I'm watching for next.

I Agree. I think that the destruction of Damascus will be the "hook" which draws the inter-national alliance to Israel's northern mountains. As far as the alliance goes, Russia just completed the list of nations participating earlier this year.

mizzdy
Nov 6th 2008, 11:28 PM
I wonder if Pslam 83 was the six day war in Israel? Does anybody have a thought on that?


I have studied on this some and I seem to be sitting on the fence about it. A case could be made for this to be future. Having the hamas, fatah, the palestinians in Jordan, the muslin brotherhood all seemingly working together to try and take Israel out could be the fullfillment of Psalms. The Syrians are right in the middle of all of them who in turn is supported by Iran. This 'war' with these could lead to Damascus being taken down. I wonder how much land Israel will get if that happens? :hmm: Would Israel live securely after the palestinian threat is out of the way, its possible they might not have peace but more security with more land between them and their enemies. Would that be the fullfillment for the unwalled reference also that seems to be the state of Israel in Eze 38. Its all interesting and theres almost anything that can ignite the fuse over there.

DigReal
Nov 7th 2008, 12:47 AM
What conditions are you referring to?

I was mostly referring the the sense of peace and security spoken of in Ez38:11 & Ez38:14. That would be a very rare thing for Israel. Events such as Is17 and Ps83 could bring that about (I can't even imagine anything else that could do it).

DigReal
Nov 7th 2008, 12:55 AM
I wonder if Pslam 83 was the six day war in Israel? Does anybody have a thought on that?

I never gave that any thought before, but do find it interesting. :hmm: Just gave Ps83 another read, and agree with mizzdy... especially the part about how anything can light a fuse over there these days. Still, that is an idea worth more thought.

DigReal
Nov 7th 2008, 01:17 AM
I Agree. I think that the destruction of Damascus will be the "hook" which draws the inter-national alliance to Israel's northern mountains. As far as the alliance goes, Russia just completed the list of nations participating earlier this year.

I'm not totally convinced Magog is Russia... I've seen convincing posts it could be part of Turkey. Perhaps Gog is a Russian ruler who works with Turkey? But either way, it seems Russia has to be a part of it. As for the hook, that does lead me back to Russia. I suspect the hook is actually a desire for Israel's technology.

Of course, if Israel should acquire a lot of new land (West Bank, Gaza, Syria, part of Iraq, Jordan) as a result of Ps83 & Is17, that could be a hook, too.

So many possible scenarios in the Middle East these days. :giveup:

IBWatching, what do you have on this alliance list you mention? I don't think I've seen that.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 7th 2008, 05:10 AM
Honestly I don't know. But there are plenty of Nations that are close and surround tiny Israel. I know also that the Philistians no longer exist.The Philistines are the Palestinians. That's where the Romans got the name "Palestine" from when they used it to designate the land's name after the Diaspora.

IBWatching
Nov 7th 2008, 04:07 PM
...IBWatching, what do you have on this alliance list you mention? I don't think I've seen that.

The link I had to an AP article back in August no longer works. You might try googling "Russia" AND "Alliances". Sorry. :)

I solved the "russia" problem some time back. The Prophecy focuses on the leader (Gog) and his alliances. Not necessarily his (Russia's) armies. At this particular point in time, the armies appear to be Muslim. Wouldn't you agree? IOW, the armies involved are not necessarily national. But the leader comes from Russia, IMO.

third hero
Nov 7th 2008, 05:28 PM
With all of the differing opinions of the end times and rapture time frame, what should we, as Christians, be looking for next according to Scripture? Is Israel going to go to war with Gog and Magog next?

Can you say, loaded question?

Well, my answer is fairly simple.

There are a couple of timelines that are detailed inthe Bible. There is a timeline concerning the point when Isral repents of her sin of rejecting her King, another timeline which includes all of that and details the return of the Lord, and there isa timeline concerning the end of the world.

Concerning the first timeline, we are not very close yet, for Israel as a country still rejects Lord Jesus, although they "tolerate" Christians. We are definitely not there yet. The Abomination that Causes Desolation is the catalyst that will bring Israel, or at least the survivors of the ensuing Massacre, to the Lord. That does not happen, according to Matthew's timeline, until the Gospel is preached throughout the world.

According to the signs of the Return of the Lord, which I use Matthew 24 as my map, we are currently in the "you will be hated" section. As we are seeing today, churches are betraying each other and God, inviting the hand of Judgment by accepting blatant blasphemies like ordaining homosexual bishops. Other churches are basing their belief structure on versions of the end times without even considering other viewpoints that, in my opinion, are more scripturally accurate. On top of that, so many who are suppose to be Christians are bringing strife to each other by using less that honorable means to prove their false doctrines, turning times of Bible study into war-zones. Indeed, many are turning away from the faith and are hating one another. At the same time, the Gospel is being preached throughout the world, as even China, North Korea, and other remote places in the world are hearing the Gospel being preached, many of them without their governments' permission.

Concerning the timeline to the end of the world, we are only at the beginning, as we were for the last 1900 years, with only three of the first 7 seals broken. We got a long way to go there.

So there you have it. We are currently in the middle of the road, as God the Father sets this world up for the return of His Son, the forces of this world are consolidating their powers and preparing for their rebellion, which will be led by their king, Satan, and his puppet, the Beast.

third hero
Nov 7th 2008, 05:40 PM
The link I had to an AP article back in August no longer works. You might try googling "Russia" AND "Alliances". Sorry. :)

I solved the "russia" problem some time back. The Prophecy focuses on the leader (Gog) and his alliances. Not necessarily his (Russia's) armies. At this particular point in time, the armies appear to be Muslim. Wouldn't you agree? IOW, the armies involved are not necessarily national. But the leader comes from Russia, IMO.

I agree partially.

To say that Russia is Magog is to be a little too simplistic, especially in light of whom Gog truly is, in my opinion. Gog is, in my opinion, an archangel, in the same vein as Michael. When both are mentioned in the OT, they are called princes, and, like Michael, the title of chief prince is on Gog.

It is my opinion that Magog is initially the area that is mentioned in Ezekiel 38, but for some reason, which I truly can not explain yet, I believe that the area of Magog is not limited to a portion of land, but rather it is tied directly to the Gog.

In my opinion, Gog is not only an archangel, but also a puppet. According to Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 19, Gog is presented as the entire army of the world, fighting against the Lord. Although Revelation 19 does not specificaly mention Gog, the event that is written in Revelation 19 is explained in Ezekiel 39 as to being an event that happens to Gog. IF my logic is correct, then Gog would not represent Russia, but the world under the dominion of the Beast, making the spirit of the Beast Gog, and his land Magog. If I am right, then Magog would then represent the entire world that is under the control of Gog, the archangel, and Satan, his lord.

And so we head to Revelation 20. We find that when Satan is released, Gog makes a reappearance. This time, Gog and Magog represents the entire world who had joined in on Satan attempt to regain control of the world, furthering my hypothesis that Magog is not limited to portions of the earth, but rather whoever is connected with Gog, the spirit of the AntiChrist.

Therefore, it would only make sense that whatever religion or country is alligned against Israel and God's saints are to be called Magog, since they would be under the control of Gog.

I believe that originally, Magog was limited to the area of the Meshech and Tubal, which is currently the Georgian/Southern Russian area. However, the alliances that Magog makes, even in Ezekiel 38, causes me to believe that even then, God was showing Ezekiel and us that Magog is not limited to a portion of the earth, but rather to the people who allign themselves against God, with Satan, and Gog his puppet, leading them.

vinsight4u8
Nov 8th 2008, 06:53 PM
I read that as the final battle where Jesus, Himself, has made His appearance once again. Do you think the second coming is next?



Scripture? I do find your answer interesting. I would ask how you think the democracy would fail? Also, does Israel handle the Palestinians themselves or do you include Palestine with Gog/Magog?


I too see Zechariah chapter 12 as to occur when Jesus returns - and I see Him as returning during the 7th trumpet.
Before this time comes the rest of when Babylon caused the nations to drink of her wrath.
,,,
Rev. 18:3 "For all nations have drunk...of the wrath of her..."
Jer. 25:15 " ...cause all the nations...to drink..."
V16 '...because of the sword that I will send among them."
Ezekiel 38:8 "...in the latter years thou shalt come into the land [that is] brought back from the sword...."
So the time for Babylon as the cup of wrath to the nations - as the sword against the nations has to end first. Then Jesus will free Jerusalem - as in the Come out of her my people part of Rev.18 and Israel will after Armageddon dwell safely.
Jesus must free Jerusalem and the married all changed saints take down the Iraqi man of sin at Armageddon before Israel will dwell safely - which is required before the time of Ezekiel 38:9.

Daniel 9:27 is still ahead of us - as this "he" mentioned that confirms a covenant is the same "he" that Jeremiah places as a Babylonian king.

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week....
Jeremiah 25:11 "And this whole land...serve the king of Babylon...

Okay - note that this prophecy is very specific - serve the king of Babylon.
not the king of Persia
or the Medes
or anywhere else

The nations are to serve the king of Babylon.

the rest of the verse

"...these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."

Now watch how Daniel was confused greatly over this prophecy.
,,,,
Daniel 9:2 "...I understood by...Jeremiah...he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
Why is Daniel so bothered as to this?
Because he knew the Babylonian kingdom lasted from Nebuchadnezzar - the start of Jeremiah's prophecy time and was supposed to continue for seventy years.
Yikes! As about 66.5 years after the Babylonian king time began - Cyrus came and took down the final Babylonian king - but it was too early to fulfill Jeremiah 25:11/ So Daniel prays - he fasts - he supplicates. Daniel wants to know when the Babylonian king will rule again.
Gabriel gets sent for that very reason.
9:23
"...understand the matter..."
V24
"...to finish..."

There is matter that was started in Daniel's day - but it won't get finished - that Jeremiah 25:11 prophecy can't get finished till- what?
Till - a whole new prophecy picture of 70 weeks slides into the matter.

To get that Jeremiah 25:11 matter as to a Babylonian king finished - it will take 70 more weeks.
then the - "he" will desolate Jerusalem
The "he" that Jeremiah had written about and Daniel was supplicating over for understanding.
the Babylonian king


So Daniel knew that one day - Babylon must rise again. Later, we find that Zechariah 6 shows the same thing.
out of the mountains of brass - ,,,as in the Greek Empire area
come horses
horses that go to the land of the north country// Euphrates River and wait
wait and wait - till Iraq one day sets the riders

This Babylonian king sword is yet to come more against the nations - at the 4th seal of Revelation 6.
the death and hell named rider

I see this as being the same man noted in Daniel 11:21 as the vile person.
the king of the north

If we step backward we can see what Scripture shows is to occur before the vile person begins to rule. It shows us that a big war has ended - then the next ruler in Iraq raises taxes - but doesn't live long.

In verse 14 - we find what I see as,,,,

many stand up against the king of the south
///Anwar Sadat
assassinated by his own people
1981

the robbers of thy people exalt themselves
Nov. 15,1988 - declared independence
,, I take this to mean the Palestinians
- but they shall fall

My heart's Desire
Nov 10th 2008, 04:34 AM
The Philistines are the Palestinians. That's where the Romans got the name "Palestine" from when they used it to designate the land's name after the Diaspora.Though part of what you've said is true, the history of the Philistines and the Palestine is quite interesting. I looked it up. The Philistines actually are extinct so Palestinians are not Philistines. Or should I say they are not the ancient Philistines. I won't go further b/c it appears that this is what is the crux of the matter of who should the Land of Israel belong to and the development of a Palestinian state.
We know how that is going.......

mfowler12
Nov 10th 2008, 03:40 PM
Can you say, loaded question?

There are a couple of timelines that are detailed inthe Bible. There is a timeline concerning the point when Isral repents of her sin of rejecting her King, another timeline which includes all of that and details the return of the Lord, and there isa timeline concerning the end of the world.

Concerning the first timeline, we are not very close yet, for Israel as a country still rejects Lord Jesus, although they "tolerate" Christians. We are definitely not there yet. The Abomination that Causes Desolation is the catalyst that will bring Israel, or at least the survivors of the ensuing Massacre, to the Lord. That does not happen, according to Matthew's timeline, until the Gospel is preached throughout the world.

According to the signs of the Return of the Lord, which I use Matthew 24 as my map, we are currently in the "you will be hated" section. As we are seeing today, churches are betraying each other and God, inviting the hand of Judgment by accepting blatant blasphemies like ordaining homosexual bishops. Other churches are basing their belief structure on versions of the end times without even considering other viewpoints that, in my opinion, are more scripturally accurate. On top of that, so many who are suppose to be Christians are bringing strife to each other by using less that honorable means to prove their false doctrines, turning times of Bible study into war-zones. Indeed, many are turning away from the faith and are hating one another. At the same time, the Gospel is being preached throughout the world, as even China, North Korea, and other remote places in the world are hearing the Gospel being preached, many of them without their governments' permission.

Concerning the timeline to the end of the world, we are only at the beginning, as we were for the last 1900 years, with only three of the first 7 seals broken. We got a long way to go there.

So there you have it. We are currently in the middle of the road, as God the Father sets this world up for the return of His Son, the forces of this world are consolidating their powers and preparing for their rebellion, which will be led by their king, Satan, and his puppet, the Beast.

It is a very loaded question but I like to see answers from all end times point of views and discussion accordingly.

Your first time line, the one of Israel accepting Jesus as the Messiah. Does that even happen with the exception of the 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes? I only ask because I don't understand this completely. Also, you mention that the abomination is what brings Israel to the Lord. I don't see where Jesus mentions that in Matthew 24. Could you explain it a little more for me?

Who/what is the beast that is conquering from the first seal? Is the second seal continuous since nations will be against the nations until the final battle when the nations join to defeat Israel? If the second seal is continuous, does that mean the third seal is also?

Do you take the literal meaning that the whole world will know about the Gospel?

Please don't feel that I am trying to disprove your opinion in this subject matter. I know this is a touchy subject and I welcome your answers.

DurbanDude
Nov 12th 2008, 10:28 AM
I am watching another timeline, it is the ten horns of the beast of Rev13:1.

By comparing this beast to that of Daniel 7 ,and the goat and ram of Daniel 8, i have come to the firm conclusion that a beast (animal) represents an empire,and a horn represents an independent political division of that empire. Both Daniel 7 and Revelation indicate that the beast with the ten horns devours the whole earth FIRST before the ten horns arise.(Daniel 7:23.24 Rev 17:12)

Simple deduction,the world must first be organised and regionalised into ten regions before those ten regions give the beast its full power(Rev 17:13). The EU has risen,waiting for the other nine to rise.

When they have risen the bible says that a small horn (small independent power) will rise to take over 3 of the horns directly , and yet the bible also says the small horn will rule the earth.

So all the current economic turmoil is the catalyst to speeding up the process of establishing these 10 unified regions. These regions may adapt over time (EU/Mediteranean Union) and may be established very quickly , I don't know,just looking at what the bible says.

cross+tie
Nov 12th 2008, 12:52 PM
I believe....per Daniel ch.2....the ten toes...split by the iron legs of the roman empire represent five nations from the right foot ( western ) and five from the left foot ( eastern )....a culturally divided kingdom.....yet unity world wide... will come from the religion factor....

DurbanDude
Nov 12th 2008, 02:08 PM
I believe....per Daniel ch.2....the ten toes...split by the iron legs of the roman empire represent five nations from the right foot ( western ) and five from the left foot ( eastern )....a culturally divided kingdom.....yet unity world wide... will come from the religion factor....

This makes sense, a world divided among religious lines.

locboxx
Nov 15th 2008, 08:38 AM
from a literal view of scripture, the rapture should happen next

third hero
Nov 15th 2008, 02:04 PM
It is a very loaded question but I like to see answers from all end times point of views and discussion accordingly.

Your first time line, the one of Israel accepting Jesus as the Messiah. Does that even happen with the exception of the 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes? I only ask because I don't understand this completely. Also, you mention that the abomination is what brings Israel to the Lord. I don't see where Jesus mentions that in Matthew 24. Could you explain it a little more for me?

First, I should tell you that I have found OT prophecies that have not been fulfilled. Mainly because I do not wantto make this post a long one, I'll just break it down quickly. Zechariah 12:10-14 tells of every remnant of Israel mourning and being bitter over the God whom they have pierced. I figured that this is a bonifide prophecy concerning Israel repenting of her sin of rejecting Lord Jesus. This repentence comes at the expense of Jerusalem being attacked, which is shown in the previous 2 verses. Also, in Daniel 9:24, the Lord prophesied to Daniel that He will reconcile his people to Himself. Therefore, as Paul states in Romans 11:26, all Israel shall be saved, and thus God's saving grace for Israel will not be limited to the 144,000 male virgins from all of the tribes of Israel.

Now, in relation to Matthew 24, Lord Jesus warns of an abomination that causes desolation, and tells the inabitants of Judea, (which Jerusalem is located in), to run toward the mountains and do not run back into their houses to get anything. After the people are charged to run, the Great Tribulation begins. In Revelation 12, we see Israel being attacked by the Dragon, and the earth opens to aid Israel in her escape. In Zechariah 14, we see the same thing in verses 1-5. Therefore, I have concluded that Matthew 24:15-28, Revelation 12-14, and Zechariah 14 deal with the same events, namely, the Massacre at Jerusalem, the Lord aiding in the Jews' escape, the Great Tribulation and the Lord's return.

Now to tie it all together. Zechariah 12:10-14 describes what the survivors of the Massacre at Jerusalem will do once they escape from clutches of the Beast, who will have become the Abomination that causes desolation (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4), and thus all of the remnant of Israel shall be saved.


Who/what is the beast that is conquering from the first seal? Is the second seal continuous since nations will be against the nations until the final battle when the nations join to defeat Israel? If the second seal is continuous, does that mean the third seal is also?

Actually, the first four seals are not beasts, but symbols. The horsemen are symbolic for the things in which wil happen. FOr instance, the white horseman is a symbol of the church, who is charged with riding forth, with authority from God (Matthew 28:19-20) to conquer Satan's kingdom and seeking to conquer. This is what we have been doing for the last 2000 years. The second seal represents the increase of wars and wholesale violence throughout the world. As you can see, the horsemen, in my opinion, has been misinterpreted.

In my opinion, all four of the first seals will be continuous until the Lord returns. Fortunately, the fourth seal has not been broken yet, and so we do not have to worry about portions of the earth being given over to death and hell yet.


Do you take the literal meaning that the whole world will know about the Gospel?

Please don't feel that I am trying to disprove your opinion in this subject matter. I know this is a touchy subject and I welcome your answers.

I understand what you are trying to do, and I am happy to share with you what I believe. It is my opinion that the entire world will hear the Gospel, and today, there is not many places left in the world thathas not heard the Gospel. Just about every nation on earth has heard the Gospel preached, and so the nations have either accepted or rejected Lord Jesus, and the scene is just about set.

I hope this helps you a little.

third hero
Nov 15th 2008, 02:07 PM
from a literal view of scripture, the rapture should happen next

What are you going to do if the rapture does not happen?

cwb
Nov 15th 2008, 03:58 PM
What are you going to do if the rapture does not happen?

You mean if the rapture does not before the tribulation, right? The rapture is clearly going to happen as it says in I Thess 4. Whether it is before the tribulation or after the tribulation, it is going to happen.

kenrank
Nov 20th 2008, 04:43 PM
MFowler...mind if I jump in? I don't get into prophecy too much...as you can see by the responses, there are just too many ways to take things. My congregation leader thinks we will never "fully" understand any prophecy until it has happened...at which point you look back at it and smack yourself in the head going, "DOH, why didn't I see that?"

I just wanted to share a prophetic scripture that I haven't seen preached much (at all?) as a prophecy. But, it is one that should not be overlooked. Here it is, I will use the KJV for it:

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

If you'll notice in verse 21, "heaven must receive 'until'," I believe it means, "he won't come back until..." So what is the restitution of all things which God spoke by his prophets of old? For it seems Yahushua (Jesus) will not return until this comes to pass.

I will wait for your answer on that.
Peace.
Ken

quiet dove
Nov 20th 2008, 07:16 PM
MFowler...mind if I jump in? I don't get into prophecy too much...as you can see by the responses, there are just too many ways to take things. My congregation leader thinks we will never "fully" understand any prophecy until it has happened...at which point you look back at it and smack yourself in the head going, "DOH, why didn't I see that?"

I just wanted to share a prophetic scripture that I haven't seen preached much (at all?) as a prophecy. But, it is one that should not be overlooked. Here it is, I will use the KJV for it:

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

If you'll notice in verse 21, "heaven must receive 'until'," I believe it means, "he won't come back until..." So what is the restitution of all things which God spoke by his prophets of old? For it seems Yahushua (Jesus) will not return until this comes to pass.

I will wait for your answer on that.
Peace.
Ken

But does "times of the restitution of all things" imply that He will not return until after, or until that time is at hand/His time to return?

locboxx
Nov 20th 2008, 08:44 PM
What are you going to do if the rapture does not happen?

whatever God tells me

kenrank
Nov 21st 2008, 06:30 AM
But does "times of the restitution of all things" imply that He will not return until after, or until that time is at hand/His time to return?

>>Great question. It would appear the way it is written that he comes as they are being restored. He may even usher the restoration in. However QD, I see a progression of things as it relates to us. For example, the new covenant which we are a part of, as seen in Jer. 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8, has the Torah (Law) written on our hearts. So I would ask, is the Law written on your heart right now?

Personally, I would have to lean toward saying no. In Jer 31:33b-34a, we read:

"After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother"

God promises to write the Law on our hearts, but when he does, there will no longer be a need to teach our neighbor. So we ask the question, " do we need to teach and learn today?" The obvious answer is yes, in fact, isn't that why we are all here? So I see this as a work in progress, while we are now children of God, and part of the new covenant, it is not complete yet.

My opinion QD is this...Paul wrote that when Yahushua returns, we will be changed, made incorruptable. While I see us being given the same type of glorified body Messiah had after the resurrection, I also believe we are incorruptable because the Law of God will be a part of us, inside us, written on our hearts. How can we rebel when His very will is essentially in your DNA...written right on the heart.

When he wrote the commands on stone He asked the Israelites to keep the Law in their hearts. They were unable to do this and continued in sin. This time, God doesn't ask, he just puts them there Himself.

Pretty neat, huh?
Blessings!
Ken

TimothyHarris
Nov 21st 2008, 03:56 PM
Zechariah 12

Jerusalem's Enemies to Be Destroyed

An Oracle

1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the LORD. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the LORD Almighty is their God.' 6 "On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
7 "The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
Mourning for the One They Pierced

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%2012%20&version=31#fen-NIV-23056a)] of grace and supplication. They will look on [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%2012%20&version=31#fen-NIV-23056b)] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.


Could this not be referring to the war that already occurred? Remember, that victory was nothing short of miraculous. Tanks and helicopters just stopped working altogether. No one could understand how Israel won....

Food for thought.