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immortality
Nov 5th 2008, 10:12 PM
The Sixth Seal Rapture of the Church
By Peter D. Goodgame


There are several important New Testament passages that connect the rapture of the Church with the Day of the Lord. We are already familiar with the statement given by Jesus:
“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21:34-36)
In this passage Jesus describes the rapture as an escape from the terrible events of "that day" which can only refer to the Day of the Lord. In Paul's explanation of the rapture and the Day of the Lord it seems that he was intimately familiar with the teachings of Jesus on the same subject:
"Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9)
Jesus taught that the Day of the Lord would come "unexpectedly like a trap," and He warned to avoid drunkenness and to always be on watch. Paul also emphasizes the sudden onset of the Day of the Lord, he mentions drunkenness, and he explains that faithful Christians are "sons of the light and sons of the day" who, figuratively speaking, are always on watch and never fall asleep. While Jesus said that faithful believers will "escape all that is about to happen," Paul speaks of unbelievers saying "they will not escape."

In 1 Thessalonians 1:10 Paul refers to Jesus as the One who "rescues us from the coming wrath." The purpose of the rapture is to protect the Church and to be the avenue of escape from the wrath that will fall upon the world during the Day of the Lord. With this relationship between the Church and the Day of the Lord in mind, it should be clear that there will hardly be any amount of time between the rapture and the onset of the Day of the Lord. The rapture comes first and then once the Church is protected the wrath of God will fall. After the rapture there will be no reason for a delay and Paul and Jesus both teach that judgment will come swiftly and suddenly.

The question now arises, if the Day of the Lord begins within the sixth Seal, and if the Church is rescued away from the Day of the Lord's wrath in the nick of time, then shouldn't we be able to find evidence of the rapture in connection with the sixth Seal? We can even go one step further. We can use our own God-given common sense and combine it with our Biblical knowledge to come up with a hypothetical description of what it might look like in heaven immediately after the resurrection and rapture. Here is how I think it might look like:

I think the focus will be on Jesus Christ, first and foremost. He is the foundation of the Church and His unselfish sacrifice is what makes eternal life for all humanity possible. I can't imagine a post-rapture scene without Him in it. Surrounding Jesus will be a huge throng of people, an unimaginable number, from every racial stock and nationality, and from every generation from the past two thousand years. This is what the eye might be expected to behold after the rapture, and the ear will probably be hearing things that are just as fantastic. I can only imagine that the triumphant Church will be praising and worshiping Jesus, and doing the same for God the Father. There will be joy to such a great degree that it brings tears to my eyes just trying to imagine it.

Now I hate to burst a major bubble, but I know that it must be done. This scene does not occur anywhere in the book of Revelation prior to the sixth Seal. The Pre-Trib conclusion is that the heavenly post-rapture scene is unreported in Revelation, and we must assume that it takes place sometime prior to Revelation 4, after which the 24 Elders "represent" the Church in heaven, with Jesus gone missing and causing poor John a long moment of unnecessary and unexplained distress! This simply can't be the truth. The truth is that the post-rapture scene in heaven is described in Revelation and the description, as brief as it is, matches up perfectly with our expectations. Here is how that description begins:
"After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: 'Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' " (Revelation 7:9-10)
This is the group that Jesus said would "escape" the Day of the Lord to "stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36), and this is the group that Paul said would be "rescued" by Jesus from "the coming wrath" (1 Thessalonians 1:10) that would then "be with the Lord forever" (1 Thessalonians 4:17). This is the raptured and resurrected Church from all places and times from throughout the two thousand years of the Church Age.

If the Day of the Lord begins within the sixth Seal, as we have determined, and if the rapture precedes the Day of the Lord, then we must conclude that the rapture of living believers from off of the face of the earth must take place either at the same time as or just before the initial sixth Seal events. My belief is that after Jesus breaks open the sixth Seal He will instantly enter into the earth's atmosphere and call up the saints, first the dead and then the living, and then we will meet the Lord in the air, just as Paul teaches in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18. The sign of the blood red moon is a unique sign found only once in Revelation, and I imagine that the rapture will probably take place at the same time as, or just before, the blood red moon becomes visible. That is why I gave the title of "Red Moon Rising" to both my book and my website. In my book I also refer to this particular rapture scenario as the "Red Moon Rapture" to distinguish it from the commonly taught Pre-Trib model as well as the Pre-Wrath and Post-Trib scenarios. It is a Sixth Seal Rapture, yet it is also a Pre-Trib Rapture model, which will be explained when we move forward into the timeline issues. For now we must still examine more of the evidence that supports a Sixth Seal Rapture.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul is clear that the resurrection of the dead will precede the rapture of the living. We find evidence for just such a resurrection, or at least evidence of preparation for a resurrection, at the very end of the fifth Seal (Revelation 6:11) when the martyred souls are given a gift of white robes. From the beginning of the fifth Seal to the situation after the sixth Seal we see that a change takes place to believers in heaven. In chapter five of my online study (http://www.redmoonrising.com/EndofDays/book5.htm) I write, "Certainly the change from existing under the altar to standing in front of the throne, and from at first not possessing white robes to finally wearing white robes, is evidence of a profound transition, a transition that can only be explained as the rapture and resurrection."

Further evidence for a Sixth Seal Rapture comes from the descriptions of the aftermath of the shaking of the earth. From what Revelation describes it seems that every single person on the face of the earth reacts in fear and terror to the onset of the Day of the Lord. The point is that when the Day of the Lord begins there are are no believers present on the earth. This observation is supported by the subsequent saving and sealing of 144,000 men from the twelve tribes of Israel. In Revelation 14:4 this group is described as "firstfruits" who were "purchased from among men." Characterizing them as "firstfruits" makes sense only if they are the very first human beings led to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ during that brief window in time immediately after the rapture when the world is populated entirely with unbelievers. This new emphasis on Israel that comes on the heals of the sixth Seal also makes sense if the Church Age has just been completed with the rapture and resurrection of the Church.

Viewing the rapture as occurring within the sixth Seal helps to clarify the relationship between the Church (in heaven) and Israel (on earth), and it also perfectly highlights the profound difference between believers and unbelievers and the different fates that each group can expect as a result of the Day of the Lord. Recall that Jesus said that faithful believers will "escape" the terrible events of "that day," while Paul says that unbelievers who are unprepared for the Day of the Lord "will not escape." Paul continues in this line of thinking by saying, "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Paul implies that the Day of the Lord will bring wrath to unbelievers, but true believers will receive salvation, so that "whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him" (5:10). In other words, whether believers are dead or alive we will all be taken up into heaven to be with the Lord.

The warning from Paul is that unbelievers will "not escape" and the implication is that they will "suffer wrath," while the promise to believers is that they will "receive salvation." Now read again the different statements made by each of these two groups in the aftermath of the shaking of the earth that marks the beginning of the Day of the Lord:
"Wrath" for the unbelieving world: “Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, ‘Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?’” (Revelation 6:15-17)


"Salvation" for believers in heaven: “After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count... And they cried out in a loud voice: ‘Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' " (Revelation 7:9-10)

DIZZY
Nov 6th 2008, 02:28 AM
"After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: 'Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' " (Revelation 7:9-10)

This is the group that Jesus said would "escape" the Day of the Lord to "stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36), and this is the group that Paul said would be "rescued" by Jesus from "the coming wrath" (1 Thessalonians 1:10) that would then "be with the Lord forever" (1 Thessalonians 4:17). This is the raptured and resurrected Church from all places and times from throughout the two thousand years of the Church Age.

This is not the rapture of the church, this is speaking of saints who have been martyred during the Tribulation period. When you continue on further in the chapter you will have one of the elders (who represents the chuch) ask who are these and where do they come from. The answer he already knows.

Revelation 7:11-17
11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"

13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

The twenty four elders represent the presence of the church in heaven with Christ. Look back to Rev 4 and you will find the church has already been raptured before any of the seals are opened.

Revelation 4:4
4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

Revelation 5
1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=5&version=31#fen-NIV-30770a)] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."
11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang:
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!" 13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!" 14The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.

The church is raptured and they are in heaven praising the Lord because He was slain and He is the only one who can open the scroll. The scroll is opened and as each seal is removed judgment comes.

1. The one who brings a false peace.
2. Peace is taken away and killing begins.
3. Food become costly because of the wars.
4. Death and famine
5. Saints under the altar who had been killed since the
opening of the second seal.
6. Man realizes that God's wrath has come upon them and they do not repent but instead they try to hide .

Once again the church is in heaven before the seals are open.

Revelation 4

The Throne in Heaven

1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne. 4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. 6Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." 9Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11"You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."

DigReal
Nov 7th 2008, 01:58 AM
An excellent subject, yet only 2 posts?

To start, I'd like to hear more about the 24 elders. I can understand how they might represent the Church, but not why their presence indicates that the Church has already been raptured at this point?

Lady Ashanti
Nov 7th 2008, 05:57 AM
The Sixth Seal Rapture of the Church

By Peter D. Goodgame


There are several important New Testament passages that connect the rapture of the Church with the Day of the Lord. We are already familiar with the statement given by Jesus:

“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21:34-36)

In this passage Jesus describes the rapture as an escape from the terrible events of "that day" which can only refer to the Day of the Lord. In Paul's explanation of the rapture and the Day of the Lord it seems that he was intimately familiar with the teachings of Jesus on the same subject:

"Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9)

Jesus taught that the Day of the Lord would come "unexpectedly like a trap," and He warned to avoid drunkenness and to always be on watch. Paul also emphasizes the sudden onset of the Day of the Lord, he mentions drunkenness, and he explains that faithful Christians are "sons of the light and sons of the day" who, figuratively speaking, are always on watch and never fall asleep. While Jesus said that faithful believers will "escape all that is about to happen," Paul speaks of unbelievers saying "they will not escape."

In 1 Thessalonians 1:10 Paul refers to Jesus as the One who "rescues us from the coming wrath." The purpose of the rapture is to protect the Church and to be the avenue of escape from the wrath that will fall upon the world during the Day of the Lord. With this relationship between the Church and the Day of the Lord in mind, it should be clear that there will hardly be any amount of time between the rapture and the onset of the Day of the Lord. The rapture comes first and then once the Church is protected the wrath of God will fall. After the rapture there will be no reason for a delay and Paul and Jesus both teach that judgment will come swiftly and suddenly.

The question now arises, if the Day of the Lord begins within the sixth Seal, and if the Church is rescued away from the Day of the Lord's wrath in the nick of time, then shouldn't we be able to find evidence of the rapture in connection with the sixth Seal? We can even go one step further. We can use our own God-given common sense and combine it with our Biblical knowledge to come up with a hypothetical description of what it might look like in heaven immediately after the resurrection and rapture. Here is how I think it might look like:

I think the focus will be on Jesus Christ, first and foremost. He is the foundation of the Church and His unselfish sacrifice is what makes eternal life for all humanity possible. I can't imagine a post-rapture scene without Him in it. Surrounding Jesus will be a huge throng of people, an unimaginable number, from every racial stock and nationality, and from every generation from the past two thousand years. This is what the eye might be expected to behold after the rapture, and the ear will probably be hearing things that are just as fantastic. I can only imagine that the triumphant Church will be praising and worshiping Jesus, and doing the same for God the Father. There will be joy to such a great degree that it brings tears to my eyes just trying to imagine it.

Now I hate to burst a major bubble, but I know that it must be done. This scene does not occur anywhere in the book of Revelation prior to the sixth Seal. The Pre-Trib conclusion is that the heavenly post-rapture scene is unreported in Revelation, and we must assume that it takes place sometime prior to Revelation 4, after which the 24 Elders "represent" the Church in heaven, with Jesus gone missing and causing poor John a long moment of unnecessary and unexplained distress! This simply can't be the truth. The truth is that the post-rapture scene in heaven is described in Revelation and the description, as brief as it is, matches up perfectly with our expectations. Here is how that description begins:

"After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: 'Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' " (Revelation 7:9-10)

This is the group that Jesus said would "escape" the Day of the Lord to "stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36), and this is the group that Paul said would be "rescued" by Jesus from "the coming wrath" (1 Thessalonians 1:10) that would then "be with the Lord forever" (1 Thessalonians 4:17). This is the raptured and resurrected Church from all places and times from throughout the two thousand years of the Church Age.

If the Day of the Lord begins within the sixth Seal, as we have determined, and if the rapture precedes the Day of the Lord, then we must conclude that the rapture of living believers from off of the face of the earth must take place either at the same time as or just before the initial sixth Seal events. My belief is that after Jesus breaks open the sixth Seal He will instantly enter into the earth's atmosphere and call up the saints, first the dead and then the living, and then we will meet the Lord in the air, just as Paul teaches in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18. The sign of the blood red moon is a unique sign found only once in Revelation, and I imagine that the rapture will probably take place at the same time as, or just before, the blood red moon becomes visible. That is why I gave the title of "Red Moon Rising" to both my book and my website. In my book I also refer to this particular rapture scenario as the "Red Moon Rapture" to distinguish it from the commonly taught Pre-Trib model as well as the Pre-Wrath and Post-Trib scenarios. It is a Sixth Seal Rapture, yet it is also a Pre-Trib Rapture model, which will be explained when we move forward into the timeline issues. For now we must still examine more of the evidence that supports a Sixth Seal Rapture.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul is clear that the resurrection of the dead will precede the rapture of the living. We find evidence for just such a resurrection, or at least evidence of preparation for a resurrection, at the very end of the fifth Seal (Revelation 6:11) when the martyred souls are given a gift of white robes. From the beginning of the fifth Seal to the situation after the sixth Seal we see that a change takes place to believers in heaven. In chapter five of my online study (http://www.redmoonrising.com/EndofDays/book5.htm) I write, "Certainly the change from existing under the altar to standing in front of the throne, and from at first not possessing white robes to finally wearing white robes, is evidence of a profound transition, a transition that can only be explained as the rapture and resurrection."

Further evidence for a Sixth Seal Rapture comes from the descriptions of the aftermath of the shaking of the earth. From what Revelation describes it seems that every single person on the face of the earth reacts in fear and terror to the onset of the Day of the Lord. The point is that when the Day of the Lord begins there are are no believers present on the earth. This observation is supported by the subsequent saving and sealing of 144,000 men from the twelve tribes of Israel. In Revelation 14:4 this group is described as "firstfruits" who were "purchased from among men." Characterizing them as "firstfruits" makes sense only if they are the very first human beings led to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ during that brief window in time immediately after the rapture when the world is populated entirely with unbelievers. This new emphasis on Israel that comes on the heals of the sixth Seal also makes sense if the Church Age has just been completed with the rapture and resurrection of the Church.

Viewing the rapture as occurring within the sixth Seal helps to clarify the relationship between the Church (in heaven) and Israel (on earth), and it also perfectly highlights the profound difference between believers and unbelievers and the different fates that each group can expect as a result of the Day of the Lord. Recall that Jesus said that faithful believers will "escape" the terrible events of "that day," while Paul says that unbelievers who are unprepared for the Day of the Lord "will not escape." Paul continues in this line of thinking by saying, "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Paul implies that the Day of the Lord will bring wrath to unbelievers, but true believers will receive salvation, so that "whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him" (5:10). In other words, whether believers are dead or alive we will all be taken up into heaven to be with the Lord.

The warning from Paul is that unbelievers will "not escape" and the implication is that they will "suffer wrath," while the promise to believers is that they will "receive salvation." Now read again the different statements made by each of these two groups in the aftermath of the shaking of the earth that marks the beginning of the Day of the Lord:

"Wrath" for the unbelieving world: “Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, ‘Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?’” (Revelation 6:15-17)

"Salvation" for believers in heaven: “After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count... And they cried out in a loud voice: ‘Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' " (Revelation 7:9-10)


1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 (New King James Version)

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 (New King James Version)

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, [apostasy] and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 7th 2008, 06:05 AM
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 (New King James Version)

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 (New King James Version)

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, [apostasy] and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.I'm confused where the conflict is between these verses and the timing of the Sixth Seal Rapture. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/confused.gif

ross3421
Nov 7th 2008, 11:25 AM
An excellent subject, yet only 2 posts?

To start, I'd like to hear more about the 24 elders. I can understand how they might represent the Church, but not why their presence indicates that the Church has already been raptured at this point?

They represent the 12 apostles and the 12 sons of Jacob. 12+12 =24

Re 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Re 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Note they sat on 24 seats........

Re 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

So the 24 elders are just that elders of the church and of Israel. They in no way represent the entire church body as the poster suggests.

DigReal
Nov 8th 2008, 01:48 AM
They represent the 12 apostles and the 12 sons of Jacob. 12+12 =24

Re 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Re 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Note they sat on 24 seats........

Re 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

So the 24 elders are just that elders of the church and of Israel. They in no way represent the entire church body as the poster suggests.

Thanks, ross3421. That does make some sense to me. If anyone wants to add to that, or post another pov, I'd be most appreciative.

Or, should I start another thread on the 24 elders? My current studies leave me very curious on this subject ( and I don't want to distract from the op).

vinsight4u8
Nov 8th 2008, 07:11 PM
I too believe the rapture occurs during the 6th seal. Job 14 reveals that the heavens must be no more before men can rise - Job told us that he is waiting for his time to be changed.

Job 14:12 "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more..."
In the 6th seal - heaven departs!

Job 14:14 "...all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come."
,,,,
And we know that Job doesn't expect that change to occur with him till the heavens be no more.

Tying this to what Paul wrote - as to we shall all be changed - at the last trump - for the trumpet shall sound

This means the last trumpet must also sound when the heavens are no more time comes.

So in Rev. 7 - we find what occurs not just after the time of the heavens depart - but a whole new scene given to reveal the finer details of what time comes during those seals.
During the seals - comes the great tribulation.

Take Rev. 6 - end it - then let Rev. 7 be told as an "after" part. As in afer John was done watching seals 1-6 get opened - he saw new stuff. This new stuff needs to be placed properly within the previous seals to understand its timing.

Just as - Rev. 17 - is an after type of chapter, so is 18.
At Rev. 18 - the angel that was telling John about the mystery, Babylon city time has ended.
Just as - Rev. 19 - is an "after" type of chapter. A story by itself - that fits in with other prophecy already seen and heard.

The rapture occurs before the 7th seal is opened at the start of chapter 8. Then John sees the same seven angel set again.

Veretax
Nov 12th 2008, 06:47 PM
While I understand why you believe the 24 are the apostles + the sons of Jacob. If they are in heaven physically sitting, why would God bring them to his Throne, but not the rest of his people? I'm having a hard time understanding this point.

MaryFreeman
May 14th 2010, 01:04 AM
I believe the rapture happens BEFORE the seals are opened.... I have several reasons for this.... The true Church is taken away from the tribulation as is evidenced in Revelation 3 with Jesus' kind words to the church at Philadelphia....

The vast crowd without number are those from all nations who died during the tribulation....

Rev 7:9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands.
Rev 7:10 And they were shouting with a mighty shout, "Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne and from the Lamb!"
Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living beings. And they fell before the throne with their faces to the ground and worshiped God.
Rev 7:12 They sang, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and strength belong to our God forever and ever! Amen."
Rev 7:13 Then one of the twenty-four elders asked me, "Who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?"
Rev 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you are the one who knows." Then he said to me, "These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.

Notice in verse 14 the Elder answered his own question.... Stating that "these are the ones who died in the great tribulation...."

Prophecy experts all agree that the tribulation is a seven year period with three sets of seven "judgments".... Seven seals.... Seven trumpets.... And seven vials.... Or bowls.... The first of the four horsemen released with the first seal broken is the Antichrist.... So the rapture happens before the Antichrist is made known.... Because the true church will be spared the "hour of trial" which is to test "those who belong to the world".... Which is not us....

I have a blog called SHOOT'N FROM THE HIP.... And it has my thoughts on the subject.... The entry is "Left behind"....

markedward
May 14th 2010, 02:57 AM
Dead thread...?

DarkMirror
May 14th 2010, 04:38 AM
So there are two raptures then? When Jesus comes as a thief(Rev 7:9), and when Jesus comes in great power and glory(Rev 14:14).

So then there will be two periods of tribulation. Babylon the Harlot and then the beast from the bottomless pit.

MaryFreeman
May 14th 2010, 02:34 PM
So there are two raptures then? When Jesus comes as a thief(Rev 7:9), and when Jesus comes in great power and glory(Rev 14:14).

So then there will be two periods of tribulation. Babylon the Harlot and then the beast from the bottomless pit.Not sure what you are saying.... Rev. 7:9 is the rapture.... Rev. 14:14 is the glorious appearing when Jesus sets foot on Mount Olivet.... And it splits in two.... One happens before the trib.... One happens after....

thedee
May 15th 2010, 01:27 AM
So there are two raptures then? When Jesus comes as a thief(Rev 7:9), and when Jesus comes in great power and glory(Rev 14:14).

So then there will be two periods of tribulation. Babylon the Harlot and then the beast from the bottomless pit.

No, one Rapture and then Second Comming about 7 years later. The seperate events.

Servant89
May 15th 2010, 12:04 PM
There is no pre-trib rapture position seen in Scriptures:

1. Matthew 24:29 states that immediately AFTER the great tribulation of Mat 24:21,29, the 6th seal will be opened (Mat 24:29-31) and then Jesus will come down to resurrect his people that were in heaven and rapture those that will be on earth (Mar 13:27). That means, that when the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17), the GT is over.

2. Rev 6:12-17 states the day of wrath arrives after the 6th seal. Since the great tribulation ends at the 6th seal; that means the day of wrath arrives AFTER the great tribulation.

3. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 is called “the day of the Lord” three verses later (1Th 5:2). But the Bible says the day of the Lord will not come until the 6th seal is open (Acts 2:20, Joel 2:31).

4. The rapture (the day of the Lord) will take place on the day that God’s wrath is poured on earth (2 Thes 1:6-8; Isa 13:9-13; Psalm 18:7-19; Rev 14:13-20).

5. The second coming will be like in the days of Lot, that the SAME DAY that Lot was taken away by angels, on THE SAME DAY fire and brimstone rained on this world (Luke 17:29-30; Gen 19:22).

6. The Church will rest when we get raptured; and that comes after the GT (2Th 1:6-8) on the day that Jesus comes in flaming fire to punish this world.

7. The Bible states the day of wrath arrives at the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:18).

8. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 states that there will be no rapture until FIRST there is a resurrection from the dead. Job 14:12 states there will be no resurrection from the dead until the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17). Therefore, there cannot be any rapture until the 6th seal is open.

9. The Bible mentions the first resurrection (of the righteous) after the seals, trumpets and vials of Revelation… in Rev 20:1-5.

10. The Bible states that Jesus will resurrect his elect (John 6:39,40,44) on the last day. The last day is when time runs out, when time is no more, and that day is clearly stated to arrive at the 7th trumpet (Rev 10:6-7). Ephesians 1:10 states that the second coming (with resurrection and rapture) will occur at the fullness of times (another term for the last day, when there is time no more).

11. According to 1Cor 15:52, the rapture will take place at the last trumpet (not before the first trumpet). The word “last” implies there will be some before and none after. The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet.

12. The Bible states in Acts 3:21 that Jesus must remain in heaven (will not come down to rapture us) until the time of restitution of all things. Webster dictionary defines “restitution” as “something restored back to its original owner”. The 7th trumpet is also the time when all the kingdoms of this world will be restored back to their rightful owner (Jesus Christ, Rev 11:15).

13. 2Thes 2:1-3 states the rapture (our gathering together with Him) will not take place until the antichrist is revealed first (not the other way around).

14. The day that comes as a thief in the night is after the GT, after the 6th seal, after all the trumpets and vials (see Rev 16:15; 2Pe 3:10; Joel 2:1-11). It is definitively not a day before the end of the GT.

15. The rapture should not be a day that takes us by surprise. It should not come as a thief in the night for his elect (1Th 5:2; Rev 3:3; 1Cor 2:9-10). We are not supposed to be in darkness because the deep secrets of God the Father have been made available to us the Church through the Spirit.

16. We should seek first the kingdom of God (Mat 6:33). If we do that, everything else will be added unto us. The time of the kingdom of God is the Great Tribulation (Rev 12:10). The Bible says we must go through much tribulation before entering in the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:22). It also says we are appointed to go through tribulation (1Th 3:3-4). The cross brings power (1Cor 1:18 ). I am exceedingly joyful in tribulation (2Cor 7:4). The disciples were happy to be beaten for the name of Jesus (Acts 5:40-42). If they beat Jesus and crucified him, what would they do to the Church? (See Luk 23:31). The Bible says that in this world we shall have tribulation (John 16:33).

17. The Bible calls it the day of Christ when the bride of Jesus (the Church) is presented to him blameless and spotless (1Th 3:13; 1Cor 1:7-8; Phi 1:6,10; Phi 2:15-16; 2Th 2:1-3; 2Cor 1:14; 1Th 2:19; 1Th 5:23). But 2Th 2:1-3 states that day of Christ will not come until FIRST, there be a falling away and the man of sin be revealed. The falling away has to happen first, then the Antichrist has to be revealed, and then, after the antichrist is revealed, then comes our gathering together with him (the rapture), the day of Christ.

18. In the parables of Matthew 13, there is a prophetic order showing the history of the Church from beginning to end. It starts with the sower and it ends at the second coming (harvest time). Israel represents the treasure that was hidden and then found in 1948 (Exo 19:5; Psalm 135:4). After that one comes the pearl (a pearl is created when a grain of sand irritates the oyster and that speaks of tribulation). After the pearl, comes the net, the end of the world.

19. The Church is refined, made blames and spotless, perfect, through affliction and tribulation, just like Jesus (Heb 2:10; Daniel 11:35; Isa 48:10; 1Pet 4:1; 1Pet 5:10).

20. The greatest revival in history will take place during the GT (Rev 7:14). It does not make sense to see that happen when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way.

21. The specialty of the HS is to comfort God’s people that are going through tribulation (2Cor 1:4). It does not make sense for God to take the Comforter out of the way, to leave and forsake his people (those that died for him during the GT as shown in Rev 7:14) when we need him the most.

22. The blessed hope that Christians look for in Titus 2:13 is eternal life (Tit 1:2; Tit 3:7) which will come after the GT (we are still mortals, eternal life will arrive in the world to come, Mat 10:30).

23. Christians do not look for a rapture before the GT, we look for the coming of the Lord at the end of the GT (2Pet 3:12).

24. The Bible says that God can not lie. But it just so happens, that God said that, when He declared that the blessed hope is eternal life (Tit 1:2).

25. When Jesus comes back in the clouds for us (the Church), the Bible says that every eye shall see him (Rev 1:7).

26. The reason why God send plagues to Egypt was to show he is so powerful, that he can pour plagues on the wicked while sparing his elect, without having to remove his elect from the planet (Exo 11:7). Jesus is against a doctrine that states that God has to remove his elect to protect his people from his own plagues (John 17:15). We need to pray like Jesus.

27. When God promised to KEEP us FROM the hour of temptation (Rev 3:10; the GT), he did not mean removing us from the planet (John 17:15).

28. Parallels: 7th seal = 7th trumpet = 7th vial (they all come with thunders, lightning, voices, a great earthquake and great hail which are the signs of God coming down to earth as shown in Exo 19:16-19).

29. Parallels 6th seal happens at the end of the 6th trumpet = 6th vial. Note: the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial deal with the Euphrates river and Armageddon, which ends at the 6th seal (Rev 9:13-19; Rev 16:12-16). See also Zep 3:8; Zec 12:3-4, and Luke 21:20-25. It is in the midst of the 6th vial that Jesus said that he will come as a thief (Rev 16:15).

30. The Bible says that the 5th seal is almost at the end of the GT (Rev 6:9-11).

31. The Bible is blatantly clear when it states that the Jews are part of the one body of Christ, the Church (1Cor 12:13; Gal 3:28; Eph 2:14-19; Eph 3:4-6; Col 3:11; 1Cor 10:1-4; Act 13:26; Rom 1:16; Rom 3:1-9,24-30; Rom 4:16; Rom chapters 9,10 & 11; Rom 12:1-5). Concerning the truth that the Jews are part of the church, the Bible says: “Let God be true and everyman a liar” (Rom 3:1-4).

32. Everywhere in Scriptures that God shows the rapture, it is shown after the 6th seal or at the day of wrath (Psalm 18; Isa 13; 1Th 3:13; 1Cor 15:52; 2Th 1:6-8; Mat 24:21-31; Rev 14:14-15)

Shalom

thedee
May 16th 2010, 02:19 AM
There is no pre-trib rapture position seen in Scriptures:

1. Matthew 24:29 states that immediately AFTER the great tribulation of Mat 24:21,29, the 6th seal will be opened (Mat 24:29-31) and then Jesus will come down to resurrect his people that were in heaven and rapture those that will be on earth (Mar 13:27). That means, that when the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17), the GT is over.

2. Rev 6:12-17 states the day of wrath arrives after the 6th seal. Since the great tribulation ends at the 6th seal; that means the day of wrath arrives AFTER the great tribulation.

3. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 is called “the day of the Lord” three verses later (1Th 5:2). But the Bible says the day of the Lord will not come until the 6th seal is open (Acts 2:20, Joel 2:31).

4. The rapture (the day of the Lord) will take place on the day that God’s wrath is poured on earth (2 Thes 1:6-8; Isa 13:9-13; Psalm 18:7-19; Rev 14:13-20).

5. The second coming will be like in the days of Lot, that the SAME DAY that Lot was taken away by angels, on THE SAME DAY fire and brimstone rained on this world (Luke 17:29-30; Gen 19:22).

6. The Church will rest when we get raptured; and that comes after the GT (2Th 1:6-8) on the day that Jesus comes in flaming fire to punish this world.

7. The Bible states the day of wrath arrives at the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:18).

8. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 states that there will be no rapture until FIRST there is a resurrection from the dead. Job 14:12 states there will be no resurrection from the dead until the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17). Therefore, there cannot be any rapture until the 6th seal is open.

9. The Bible mentions the first resurrection (of the righteous) after the seals, trumpets and vials of Revelation… in Rev 20:1-5.

10. The Bible states that Jesus will resurrect his elect (John 6:39,40,44) on the last day. The last day is when time runs out, when time is no more, and that day is clearly stated to arrive at the 7th trumpet (Rev 10:6-7). Ephesians 1:10 states that the second coming (with resurrection and rapture) will occur at the fullness of times (another term for the last day, when there is time no more).

11. According to 1Cor 15:52, the rapture will take place at the last trumpet (not before the first trumpet). The word “last” implies there will be some before and none after. The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet.

12. The Bible states in Acts 3:21 that Jesus must remain in heaven (will not come down to rapture us) until the time of restitution of all things. Webster dictionary defines “restitution” as “something restored back to its original owner”. The 7th trumpet is also the time when all the kingdoms of this world will be restored back to their rightful owner (Jesus Christ, Rev 11:15).

13. 2Thes 2:1-3 states the rapture (our gathering together with Him) will not take place until the antichrist is revealed first (not the other way around).

14. The day that comes as a thief in the night is after the GT, after the 6th seal, after all the trumpets and vials (see Rev 16:15; 2Pe 3:10; Joel 2:1-11). It is definitively not a day before the end of the GT.

15. The rapture should not be a day that takes us by surprise. It should not come as a thief in the night for his elect (1Th 5:2; Rev 3:3; 1Cor 2:9-10). We are not supposed to be in darkness because the deep secrets of God the Father have been made available to us the Church through the Spirit.

16. We should seek first the kingdom of God (Mat 6:33). If we do that, everything else will be added unto us. The time of the kingdom of God is the Great Tribulation (Rev 12:10). The Bible says we must go through much tribulation before entering in the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:22). It also says we are appointed to go through tribulation (1Th 3:3-4). The cross brings power (1Cor 1:18 ). I am exceedingly joyful in tribulation (2Cor 7:4). The disciples were happy to be beaten for the name of Jesus (Acts 5:40-42). If they beat Jesus and crucified him, what would they do to the Church? (See Luk 23:31). The Bible says that in this world we shall have tribulation (John 16:33).

17. The Bible calls it the day of Christ when the bride of Jesus (the Church) is presented to him blameless and spotless (1Th 3:13; 1Cor 1:7-8; Phi 1:6,10; Phi 2:15-16; 2Th 2:1-3; 2Cor 1:14; 1Th 2:19; 1Th 5:23). But 2Th 2:1-3 states that day of Christ will not come until FIRST, there be a falling away and the man of sin be revealed. The falling away has to happen first, then the Antichrist has to be revealed, and then, after the antichrist is revealed, then comes our gathering together with him (the rapture), the day of Christ.

18. In the parables of Matthew 13, there is a prophetic order showing the history of the Church from beginning to end. It starts with the sower and it ends at the second coming (harvest time). Israel represents the treasure that was hidden and then found in 1948 (Exo 19:5; Psalm 135:4). After that one comes the pearl (a pearl is created when a grain of sand irritates the oyster and that speaks of tribulation). After the pearl, comes the net, the end of the world.

19. The Church is refined, made blames and spotless, perfect, through affliction and tribulation, just like Jesus (Heb 2:10; Daniel 11:35; Isa 48:10; 1Pet 4:1; 1Pet 5:10).

20. The greatest revival in history will take place during the GT (Rev 7:14). It does not make sense to see that happen when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way.

21. The specialty of the HS is to comfort God’s people that are going through tribulation (2Cor 1:4). It does not make sense for God to take the Comforter out of the way, to leave and forsake his people (those that died for him during the GT as shown in Rev 7:14) when we need him the most.

22. The blessed hope that Christians look for in Titus 2:13 is eternal life (Tit 1:2; Tit 3:7) which will come after the GT (we are still mortals, eternal life will arrive in the world to come, Mat 10:30).

23. Christians do not look for a rapture before the GT, we look for the coming of the Lord at the end of the GT (2Pet 3:12).

24. The Bible says that God can not lie. But it just so happens, that God said that, when He declared that the blessed hope is eternal life (Tit 1:2).

25. When Jesus comes back in the clouds for us (the Church), the Bible says that every eye shall see him (Rev 1:7).

26. The reason why God send plagues to Egypt was to show he is so powerful, that he can pour plagues on the wicked while sparing his elect, without having to remove his elect from the planet (Exo 11:7). Jesus is against a doctrine that states that God has to remove his elect to protect his people from his own plagues (John 17:15). We need to pray like Jesus.

27. When God promised to KEEP us FROM the hour of temptation (Rev 3:10; the GT), he did not mean removing us from the planet (John 17:15).

28. Parallels: 7th seal = 7th trumpet = 7th vial (they all come with thunders, lightning, voices, a great earthquake and great hail which are the signs of God coming down to earth as shown in Exo 19:16-19).

29. Parallels 6th seal happens at the end of the 6th trumpet = 6th vial. Note: the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial deal with the Euphrates river and Armageddon, which ends at the 6th seal (Rev 9:13-19; Rev 16:12-16). See also Zep 3:8; Zec 12:3-4, and Luke 21:20-25. It is in the midst of the 6th vial that Jesus said that he will come as a thief (Rev 16:15).

30. The Bible says that the 5th seal is almost at the end of the GT (Rev 6:9-11).

31. The Bible is blatantly clear when it states that the Jews are part of the one body of Christ, the Church (1Cor 12:13; Gal 3:28; Eph 2:14-19; Eph 3:4-6; Col 3:11; 1Cor 10:1-4; Act 13:26; Rom 1:16; Rom 3:1-9,24-30; Rom 4:16; Rom chapters 9,10 & 11; Rom 12:1-5). Concerning the truth that the Jews are part of the church, the Bible says: “Let God be true and everyman a liar” (Rom 3:1-4).

32. Everywhere in Scriptures that God shows the rapture, it is shown after the 6th seal or at the day of wrath (Psalm 18; Isa 13; 1Th 3:13; 1Cor 15:52; 2Th 1:6-8; Mat 24:21-31; Rev 14:14-15)

Shalom

So if only the beheaded saints in Revelation 20 get resurrected at this time then when do the saints who have died in the past get Resurrected?

Servant89
May 16th 2010, 02:45 AM
So if only the beheaded saints in Revelation 20 get resurrected at this time then when do the saints who have died in the past get Resurrected?

We need to make our theology fit Scripture, not the other way around. If Scriptures states that the GT is over when the 6th seal arrives, that's it. In your quote, the word ONLY appears. But that word is not in Scriptures. Prophecy is like putting together different witnesses. For example, the sign on the cross is not the same in all four gospels. To get the truth, we need to believe they are all telling the truth. If one says, it was written: King of the Jews, it is wrong to interpret that he was saying the sign on the cross said: "Kings of the Jews" and nothing else. That is not so. If another witness says the sign on the cross said: Jesus, King of the Jews, that adds another data point to the event. People record what comes to mind from what they see. To get the truth, we need to put all witnesses together believing all of them are saying the truth. So, just because he is telling us that he saw the souls that died during the GT and that they reigned with Christ for 1,000 years, that does not mean, there were no one else. If I say I saw you and your spouse at the ball game, that does not mean there was no one else there. Does it?

What part do people not understand about the word FIRST? First resurrection means, there was none before. Look at the list of verses provided and you will see the Scriptures are in agreement with itself. They all point to the same story, a story that violates the pre-trib rapture position.

Shalom

thedee
May 16th 2010, 03:27 AM
We need to make our theology fit Scripture, not the other way around. If Scriptures states that the GT is over when the 6th seal arrives, that's it. In your quote, the word ONLY appears. But that word is not in Scriptures. Prophecy is like putting together different witnesses. For example, the sign on the cross is not the same in all four gospels. To get the truth, we need to believe they are all telling the truth. If one says, it was written: King of the Jews, it is wrong to interpret that he was saying the sign on the cross said: "Kings of the Jews" and nothing else. That is not so. If another witness says the sign on the cross said: Jesus, King of the Jews, that adds another data point to the event. People record what comes to mind from what they see. To get the truth, we need to put all witnesses together believing all of them are saying the truth. So, just because he is telling us that he saw the souls that died during the GT and that they reigned with Christ for 1,000 years, that does not mean, there were no one else. If I say I saw you and your spouse at the ball game, that does not mean there was no one else there. Does it?

What part do people not understand about the word FIRST? First resurrection means, there was none before. Look at the list of verses provided and you will see the Scriptures are in agreement with itself. They all point to the same story, a story that violates the pre-trib rapture position.

Shalom

Was not Christ part of the First Resurrection? Was He not the firstfruits? Does not 1 Corinthians 15:23 say "each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits"?

With that being said, the First Resurrection happens in stages. Does that violate scripture? Certainly not.
For Christ is the firstfruits.... and then each one in his own order afterwords. This tells us that the First Resurrection does not all happen at once.

Servant89
May 16th 2010, 06:34 PM
Was not Christ part of the First Resurrection? Was He not the firstfruits? Does not 1 Corinthians 15:23 say "each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits"?

With that being said, the First Resurrection happens in stages. Does that violate scripture? Certainly not.
For Christ is the firstfruits.... and then each one in his own order afterwords. This tells us that the First Resurrection does not all happen at once.

Christ is indeed the firstfruits, he is in a league all by himself. The Scriptures talks about THE (singular) resurrection from the dead of the redeemed, and another singular one for the unrighteous. This is 100% the case in all Scriptures. It is also 100% the case that in all Scriptures, the first resurrection is always located at the same location in time, after the GT, before the wrath. There is only one. Just look at my points # 9 and 10.

9. The Bible mentions the first resurrection (of the righteous) after the seals, trumpets and vials of Revelation… in Rev 20:1-5.

10. The Bible states that Jesus will resurrect his elect (John 6:39,40,44) on the last day. The last day is when time runs out, when time is no more, and that day is clearly stated to arrive at the 7th trumpet (Rev 10:6-7). Ephesians 1:10 states that the second coming (with resurrection and rapture) will occur at the fullness of times (another term for the last day, when there is time no more).

1 Cor 15:23 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Afterwards defines AFTER. It refers to another resurrection that the Bible calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION of the righteous. There is only one and that one comes AFTER Jesus resurrected.

Shalom

thedee
May 16th 2010, 07:22 PM
Christ is indeed the firstfruits, he is in a league all by himself. The Scriptures talks about THE (singular) resurrection from the dead of the redeemed, and another singular one for the unrighteous. This is 100% the case in all Scriptures. It is also 100% the case that in all Scriptures, the first resurrection is always located at the same location in time, after the GT, before the wrath. There is only one. Just look at my points # 9 and 10.

9. The Bible mentions the first resurrection (of the righteous) after the seals, trumpets and vials of Revelation… in Rev 20:1-5.

10. The Bible states that Jesus will resurrect his elect (John 6:39,40,44) on the last day. The last day is when time runs out, when time is no more, and that day is clearly stated to arrive at the 7th trumpet (Rev 10:6-7). Ephesians 1:10 states that the second coming (with resurrection and rapture) will occur at the fullness of times (another term for the last day, when there is time no more).

1 Cor 15:23 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Afterwards defines AFTER. It refers to another resurrection that the Bible calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION of the righteous. There is only one and that one comes AFTER Jesus resurrected.

Shalom

You confuse the trumpet at 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 with the judgement trumpets of Revelation. The trumpet that happens at the rapture is a call to gather His Bride. This is not what the judgement trumpets are.

Also in John 6:39 are you trying to say the "last day" is one day? That would be like saying "hour" in John 5:28,29 is speaking of 1 literal hour. Which it is not.

Servant89
May 16th 2010, 10:00 PM
You confuse the trumpet at 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 with the judgement trumpets of Revelation. The trumpet that happens at the rapture is a call to gather His Bride. This is not what the judgement trumpets are. .

First of all, no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation. That means, it does not belong to the Vatican, it does not belong to anyone in particular it is for the public. It does not belong to me or you. That is why I can not tell you "You are wrong". You see it that way, and it does not bother me. I am not confused. The Bible is in agreement within itself. But the Bible is also in violent disagreement with the pre-trib rapture position. The Bible refers to that rapture trumpet as the last trumpet. The word last implies some came before and none after. If we assume God is not the God of confusion and assume the last trumpet of Revelation (the 7th) is indeed the last trumpet, then things become clear and obvious and everything makes sense.


Also in John 6:39 are you trying to say the "last day" is one day? That would be like saying "hour" in John 5:28,29 is speaking of 1 literal hour. Which it is not.

Again, I am not trying to say anything. My doctrine does not come from the imagination of men. It is the Scripture that says that the last day, the time when time is no longer happens to be located, and what a coincidence!!!! it is placed at the last trumpet, the 7th trumpet of Revelation. What a COINCIDENCE!!!! That the Bible is in agreement with itself!!!! Wow!

God knew before hand that many would not believe that. That is why the angel swore it was the truth.

Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

People should let the Scriptures tell them what to believe.

Amen

Diggindeeper
May 17th 2010, 12:58 AM
I am in total agreement with Servant89. I offer that if we can't believe the words from the very mouth of Christ Jesus, then we best not believe anything else. Regardless of how certain denominations teach, or how they indoctrinate the church members to believe what they teach, we cannot get around the fact that Christ Jesus said:

"After the tribulation...then Christ would return.

Matthew was there, and heard that spoken by Jesus. It's found here:

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark was also there, and heard Jesus say it. Here is how he recorded it:

Mark 13:
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Many of us here had been taught the pre-tribulation rapture, but then, after deep study (some of us have been studying this subject for MANY long years!) we have found it just is not consistent with other scriptures, and especially not fitting at all with how Christ Jesus taught.

Amos_with_goats
May 17th 2010, 03:53 AM
I am in total agreement with Servant89. I offer that if we can't believe the words from the very mouth of Christ Jesus, then we best not believe anything else. Regardless of how certain denominations teach, or how they indoctrinate the church members to believe what they teach, we cannot get around the fact that Christ Jesus said:

"After the tribulation...then Christ would return.

Matthew was there, and heard that spoken by Jesus. It's found here:

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark was also there, and heard Jesus say it. Here is how he recorded it:

Mark 13:
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Many of us here had been taught the pre-tribulation rapture, but then, after deep study (some of us have been studying this subject for MANY long years!) we have found it just is not consistent with other scriptures, and especially not fitting at all with how Christ Jesus taught.

http://www.northcoastjournal.com/020107/NEWS-clapping81.jpg

Amen
.

thedee
May 17th 2010, 01:24 PM
We need to make our theology fit Scripture, not the other way around. If Scriptures states that the GT is over when the 6th seal arrives, that's it. In your quote, the word ONLY appears. But that word is not in Scriptures. Prophecy is like putting together different witnesses. For example, the sign on the cross is not the same in all four gospels. To get the truth, we need to believe they are all telling the truth. If one says, it was written: King of the Jews, it is wrong to interpret that he was saying the sign on the cross said: "Kings of the Jews" and nothing else. That is not so. If another witness says the sign on the cross said: Jesus, King of the Jews, that adds another data point to the event. People record what comes to mind from what they see. To get the truth, we need to put all witnesses together believing all of them are saying the truth. So, just because he is telling us that he saw the souls that died during the GT and that they reigned with Christ for 1,000 years, that does not mean, there were no one else. If I say I saw you and your spouse at the ball game, that does not mean there was no one else there. Does it?

What part do people not understand about the word FIRST? First resurrection means, there was none before. Look at the list of verses provided and you will see the Scriptures are in agreement with itself. They all point to the same story, a story that violates the pre-trib rapture position.

Shalom

So does the event in Revelation 20:5 occur before or after Revelation 19:11-16?

Servant89
May 17th 2010, 10:32 PM
So does the event in Revelation 20:5 occur before or after Revelation 19:11-16?

This is what I believe: The end of Rev 20:5 refers to Rev 20:4. The beginning of Rev 20:5 refers to Rev 20:7-15.

I also believe Rev 19:11-16 happens after Rev 20:4. When a prophecy is given without a reference point, it should be placed where it best fits the Scriptures (without violating any Scriptures).

Shalom

thedee
May 18th 2010, 12:29 AM
This is what I believe: The end of Rev 20:5 refers to Rev 20:4. The beginning of Rev 20:5 refers to Rev 20:7-15.

I also believe Rev 19:11-16 happens after Rev 20:4. When a prophecy is given without a reference point, it should be placed where it best fits the Scriptures (without violating any Scriptures).

Shalom

This is for conversation.... So if you beleive that Rev 19:11-16 occur after Rev 20:4 then why does it say in Revelation 20:1 "Then I saw..."? Wouldn't the flow here from chapter 19 to 20 be one flow meaning one thing after the other?. "then" meaning "after"?

Servant89
May 18th 2010, 12:53 AM
This is for conversation.... So if you beleive that Rev 19:11-16 occur after Rev 20:4 then why does it say in Revelation 20:1 "Then I saw..."? Wouldn't the flow here from chapter 19 to 20 be one flow meaning one thing after the other?. "then" meaning "after"?

You are correct, after he saw Rev 19, then (after God showed him that future event) the Lord showed him Rev 20 (another future event). No where in Scriptures do we see a precedence in prophecy to place thing in chronological order based on the timing that God used to reveal the prophecy to his servant.

Especially, if it violates a clear indication of chronology. For example:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

That gives a clear order of things. This too gives a clear indication of the chronological order things.

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

And this long sentence too gives a clear indication of the chronological order of things.

1Th4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There can not be any rapture, without a resurrection first. There can not be any resurrection until the 6th seal happens first. And the 6th seal can not happen until the GT ends.

Shalom

thedee
May 18th 2010, 02:51 AM
You are correct, after he saw Rev 19, then (after God showed him that future event) the Lord showed him Rev 20 (another future event). No where in Scriptures do we see a precedence in prophecy to place thing in chronological order based on the timing that God used to reveal the prophecy to his servant.

Just for clarity

So it appears you are saying the order of events is Revelation 19:11-21 first then Revelation 20:5? or are you saying Revelation 19:11+ come after Revelation 20:5 like post #25 states?

I think I read you wrong on your last post.

Servant89
May 18th 2010, 08:57 PM
Just for clarity

So it appears you are saying the order of events is Revelation 19:11-21 first then Revelation 20:5? or are you saying Revelation 19:11+ come after Revelation 20:5 like post #25 states?

I think I read you wrong on your last post.


Yes you did read it wrong. One things is the order the revelation that was given to John (God shared Rev 19 before he shared Rev 20) and another totally different thing is where I place those events. I place Rev 19:11-16 immediately after Rev 20:4.

To the Lord one day is as 1,000 years, the 7th day is the Sabbath rest. The 7th millenium will bring a rest from wars on planet earth and it all starts with the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th vial.

That is how I see it.

Shalom

thedee
May 18th 2010, 09:22 PM
Yes you did read it wrong. One things is the order the revelation that was given to John (God shared Rev 19 before he shared Rev 20) and another totally different thing is where I place those events. I place Rev 19:11-16 immediately after Rev 20:4.

To the Lord one day is as 1,000 years, the 7th day is the Sabbath rest. The 7th millenium will bring a rest from wars on planet earth and it all starts with the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th vial.

That is how I see it.

Shalom

So where would you place Revelation 19:6-9?

Servant89
May 19th 2010, 09:14 PM
So where would you place Revelation 19:6-9?

I place it at the beginning of the millenium. But on the honeymoon with the Lord, we will all see better, much better.

Shalom (peace!)

thedee
May 19th 2010, 09:32 PM
I place it at the beginning of the millenium. But on the honeymoon with the Lord, we will all see better, much better.

Shalom (peace!)

How can this be at the beginning of the millenium when at the second comming they are "clothed in fine linen" (Rev 19:14) and we know the Second Comming is before the 1000 years?

What i am trying to get at is this:
Chapter 19 concludes the seven year Tribulation Perid with Christ's coming
Chapter 20 continues with the events of Chapter 19 and it doesn't seem to be any time gap between the two.

Chapter 20 is only the resurrection of the Tribulation saints. Therefore when Christ returns with his armies in chapter 19 He must of taken them prior in order to return with them.

Clearly, the events in Chapter 20 come after the events of Chapter 19. Therefore the events as described in 1 Thes 4 had to of taken place at a prior time.... pre-trib rapture.

Servant89
May 19th 2010, 11:17 PM
How can this be at the beginning of the millenium when at the second comming they are "clothed in fine linen" (Rev 19:14) and we know the Second Comming is before the 1000 years?
What i am trying to get at is this:
Chapter 19 concludes the seven year Tribulation Perid with Christ's coming
Chapter 20 continues with the events of Chapter 19 and it doesn't seem to be any time gap between the two.
Chapter 20 is only the resurrection of the Tribulation saints. Therefore when Christ returns with his armies in chapter 19 He must of taken them prior in order to return with them.

Clearly, the events in Chapter 20 come after the events of Chapter 19. Therefore the events as described in 1 Thes 4 had to of taken place at a prior time.... pre-trib rapture.

From the way I see it, you are letting your theology be the truth by which you measure everything, including the word of God. When the Word of God does not fit your theology, you convince yourself that your theology is true (even though there are no Scriptures to back it up). Let me explain:

Rev 20 calls it the FIRST RESURRECTION, but that violates the pre-trib rapture position and as such, it must be explained away. And people do that by saying, there was one before, there must be one before for the pretrib to be true. But there are none. Job 14:12 states there will be none until the 6th seal. John 6 (and I showed you that) states it is going to happen at the last day (which the Bible states comes at the 7th trumpet), not 7 years before the last day. You said:

<<Clearly, the events in Chapter 20 come after the events of Chapter 19. Therefore the events as described in 1 Thes 4 had to of taken place at a prior time.... pre-trib rapture.>>

Clearly because it does not fit your theology. Clearly because it has to be like that for pretrib to be true. Clearly because you have convinced yourself that millions of Christians and TV preachers can't be wrong. But there are no Scriptures to support it. NONE! A pre-trib rapture can not happen without violating those 32 points I showed you before. You have to explain Scripture away by saying the trumpet is really before the first trumpet of Revelation (When the Scripture calls it the last trumpet). The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet because there are some before and NONE after. But that is how I see it, and I am not the one that determines which is the correct interpretation of prophetic passages. You have to figure it out yourself without man's influence.

Shalom

thedee
May 20th 2010, 01:58 AM
From the way I see it, you are letting your theology be the truth by which you measure everything, including the word of God. When the Word of God does not fit your theology, you convince yourself that your theology is true (even though there are no Scriptures to back it up). Let me explain:

Rev 20 calls it the FIRST RESURRECTION, but that violates the pre-trib rapture position and as such, it must be explained away. And people do that by saying, there was one before, there must be one before for the pretrib to be true. But there are none. Job 14:12 states there will be none until the 6th seal. John 6 (and I showed you that) states it is going to happen at the last day (which the Bible states comes at the 7th trumpet), not 7 years before the last day. You said:

<<Clearly, the events in Chapter 20 come after the events of Chapter 19. Therefore the events as described in 1 Thes 4 had to of taken place at a prior time.... pre-trib rapture.>>

Clearly because it does not fit your theology. Clearly because it has to be like that for pretrib to be true. Clearly because you have convinced yourself that millions of Christians and TV preachers can't be wrong. But there are no Scriptures to support it. NONE! A pre-trib rapture can not happen without violating those 32 points I showed you before. You have to explain Scripture away by saying the trumpet is really before the first trumpet of Revelation (When the Scripture calls it the last trumpet). The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet because there are some before and NONE after. But that is how I see it, and I am not the one that determines which is the correct interpretation of prophetic passages. You have to figure it out yourself without man's influence.

Shalom

On the contrary.... you switch scripture around to fit your point of view.... How much more clear can it get that Revelation 20 comes after Revelation 19? Not only numerically but also texturally. For it say "Then I saw... Then I saw" etc... etc... nkjv

According to your view... Satan is bound(Rev 20) and then Christ returns with all his saints(Rev 19)... No, Christ returns with all His saints(Rev 19) and then Satain is bound(Rev 20).

Servant89
May 20th 2010, 03:35 AM
On the contrary.... you switch scripture around to fit your point of view.... How much more clear can it get that Revelation 20 comes after Revelation 19? Not only numerically but also texturally. For it say "Then I saw... Then I saw" etc... etc... nkjv

According to your view... Satan is bound(Rev 20) and then Christ returns with all his saints(Rev 19)... No, Christ returns with all His saints(Rev 19) and then Satain is bound(Rev 20).

I see why you say that. I do. I understand. But where in Scripture is this rapture 7 years before the second coming? I do not see it.

But one day we will find out. One day all will find out. If you are right, I want to go with you to be with the Lord as soon as possible.

Peace ! (Shalom)

thedee
May 20th 2010, 03:42 AM
I see why you say that. I do. I understand. But where in Scripture is this rapture 7 years before the second coming? I do not see it.

But one day we will find out. One day all will find out. If you are right, I want to go with you to be with the Lord as soon as possible.

Peace ! (Shalom)

Read Proverbs 25:7 then Read Revelation 4:1... see the similarities.... COME UP HERE (nkjv)
2 Thes 2:7-8

Lord Bless

Servant89
May 20th 2010, 03:42 AM
1. Matthew 24:29 states that immediately AFTER the great tribulation of Mat 24:21, the 6th seal will be opened (Mat 24:29-31) and then Jesus will come down to resurrect his people that were in heaven and rapture those that will be on earth (Mar 13:27). That means, that when the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17), the GT is over.
2. Rev 6:12-17 states the day of wrath arrives after the 6th seal. Since the great tribulation ends at the 6th seal; that means the day of wrath arrives AFTER the great tribulation.
3. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 is called “the day of the Lord” three verses later (1Th 5:2). But the Bible says the day of the Lord will not come until the 6th seal is open (Acts 2:20, Joel 2:31).
4. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 states that there will be no rapture until FIRST there is a resurrection from the dead. Job 14:12 states there will be no resurrection from the dead until the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17). Therefore, there cannot be any rapture until the 6th seal is open.

These are passages that clearly state the order of things, in time. And they clearly violate the pretrib rapture position.

Shalom

thedee
May 20th 2010, 04:27 AM
1. Matthew 24:29 states that immediately AFTER the great tribulation

Yes this is the Second Comming not the Rapture. In verse 31 it is the angle gathering them together.. In 1 Thes 4 it is Christ. See the difference? In 1 Thes 4 the Bride is gathered in the air, in Mat 24:31 it is a gathering on earth.

You may ask then who is the elect in Mat 24:31... My answer... Jews. Could this be a fulfillment of Isaiah 65:9-25?


2. Rev 6:12-17 states the day of wrath arrives after the 6th seal. Since the great tribulation ends at the 6th seal; that means the day of wrath arrives AFTER the great tribulation.

Who is the one who opens the first and all the seals? The Lamb of course. Seems to me it is the wrath of the Lamb being He is the one opening the seals.


The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 is called “the day of the Lord” three verses later (1Th 5:2). But the Bible says the day of the Lord will not come until the 6th seal is open

Often "the day of the Lord" is referred to as a day of woe, evil, vengeance from God, of indescribable descrution; "the day of his [God's] wrath" (Psalm 110:5); "a descruction from the Almighty" (Joel 1:15).... Also read Amos 5:18 and Zephaniah 2:2,3

The day of the Lord is clearly not one literal day. The day of the Lord includes the Great Tribulation period and it especially to Israel and involves the messiah coming to her rescue at Armageddon and exeuting judgement upon those who have mistreated her.


The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 states that there will be no rapture until FIRST there is a resurrection from the dead. Job 14:12 states there will be no resurrection from the dead until the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17). Therefore, there cannot be any rapture until the 6th seal is open.

Was not Christ resurrected? Was He not the firstfruits? and then each in his own order afterwords?

Again the events in Revelation 20 come after the events in Revelation 19.

Servant89
May 20th 2010, 09:27 PM
Read Proverbs 25:7 then Read Revelation 4:1... see the similarities.... COME UP HERE (nkjv)
2 Thes 2:7-8 Lord Bless

That is the same approach used by the Vatican to prove that Mary is the mother of all Christians. John was at the cross. The conversation referred just to John. But they say, John repreesents the Church. That is called taking a passage out of context.

Shalom

Servant89
May 20th 2010, 09:33 PM
Yes this is the Second Comming not the Rapture. In verse 31 it is the angle gathering them together.. In 1 Thes 4 it is Christ. See the difference? In 1 Thes 4 the Bride is gathered in the air, in Mat 24:31 it is a gathering on earth.

You may ask then who is the elect in Mat 24:31... My answer... Jews. Could this be a fulfillment of Isaiah 65:9-25?.

This is a typical tactic of pre-tribers, nullifying the word of God and making it null and void of no effect by saying, that is not for us, that passage is for the Jews. But the only Book in the Bible that ends by saying this book is for the gentiles it just so happens is Matthew. What a surprise. God knew what was coming. The point of that passage is that the GT ends with the 6th seal, Did you notice that?


The day of the Lord includes the Great Tribulation period .

No it doesn't. The day of the Lord arrives after the 6th seal.

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Shalom

thedee
May 21st 2010, 02:33 AM
That is the same approach used by the Vatican to prove that Mary is the mother of all Christians. John was at the cross. The conversation referred just to John. But they say, John repreesents the Church. That is called taking a passage out of context.

Shalom

This is what you call a analagy that makes no sense at all.

thedee
May 21st 2010, 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by Servant89

I have another question... When does the seperation of the sheep and goats take place and to whom?

Servant89
May 21st 2010, 10:12 PM
This is what you call a analagy that makes no sense at all.

At the cross was Jesus telling John: Behold your mother (referring to Mary). The Vatican says: John represents the church there, to prove that Mary is the mother of all Christians.

Pretribers look at Rev 4:1 where John is told "Come up hither" and pretribers say: John represents the church there, to prove there is a rapture before the tribulation.

Jn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Shalom

Servant89
May 21st 2010, 10:15 PM
I have another question... When does the seperation of the sheep and goats take place and to whom?

The subject of this thread is the 6th seal. I asked you if you noticed that the GT is over when the 6th seal arrives. Did you notice that?

Shalom

Kingdom Studies
May 22nd 2010, 05:48 AM
New here - Glad to find this place!

I'm very familiar with the 6th seal rapture.
I have some questions though.

Servant89 - you have stated (correctly) that the rapture cannot take place until the 6th seal is opened.
We also know that the rapture takes place as the 7th trumpet begins to sound (Rev. 10:7, 11:15)

Do you mean to say that the seals & trumpets run congruently?

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the "mystery"?

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

We also see after the 6th seal in Rev. 7:15 & 17 that these people of every tribe, nation & tongue are seen standing before the throne and all tears will be wiped away.

HOWEVER, Revelation 15:8 says
Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

And Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
This is when John sees a new heaven & earth.

So I'm trying to figure out the sequence of Seals, Trumpets, vials.
It seems as if the 6th seal rapture is possible, but no one can enter the temple until the last vial is poured out.
If so, where is everyone until that time?

And if the seals and trumpets do not take place at the same time, but are instead in sequential order, How do we account for the remaining time?

I also notice this:
Acts 2:20 - The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Revelation 6:12 - And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

No doubt, the moon turns to blood BEFORE the day of the Lord.
However Matthew 24:29 says Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

It doesn't say the moon turns to blood, it says after the tribulation the moon does not give light.

Because of this, I'm wondering if the 6th seal is NOT the end of the GT.

Servant89
May 22nd 2010, 09:37 AM
Kingdom Studies: Do you mean to say that the seals & trumpets run congruently?

Yes, that is a Hebrew style of writing even though the NT is in Greek (same author). They are in parallel.

For example: Prov 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: (but the list is not a list of 6+7, it is a list of 7).

And if the seals and trumpets do not take place at the same time, but are instead in sequential order, How do we account for the remaining time?

You can't. That is another reason why they have to be in parallel.

Because of this, I'm wondering if the 6th seal is NOT the end of the GT.

Yes it is the end, Mat 24:21-31 states it is.

.................................................. ......The GT ends here>| 2nd coming/rapture (at the 7th plague)

SEALS.....1....2...3....4......................... ...................5........6......7
TRUMPETS ...............................1....2...3....4.... ..5.....6.............7
VIALS............................................. .................123456............7

Rev 16:15: Behold I come as a thief (this statement is located right between the 6th and the 7th vial).

These are my reasons why I put them in parallel:

1. The 7th seal is the same event as the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial. They all have a great earthquake, hail, trumpets, voices and thunders. These are the signs that God is coming down to earth and that was rehearsed already in Exo 19:16-20.

2. Armageddon is both the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial (Euphrates river is the key).

3. We are told the 5th seal is almost at the end (Rev 6:11).

4. Mat 24:21-31 states the GT is over when the 6th seal opens.

5. The wrath arrives at the 7th seal, and the 7th trumpet.

6. There is only one resurrection of the righteous and that happens after the 6th seal.

7. God told us in Rev 16:15 that the day he is coming as a thief in the night is right between the 6th and the 7th vial.

8. For the trumpets and the vials to be inside the GT, they have to be in parallel.

Shalom

Servant89
May 22nd 2010, 09:45 AM
I went through hundreds of hours of research to summarize the location of the rapture/resurrection (as stated in the Bible) in a concise manner in post # 15 in this thread. That one is worth saving and studying.

Shalom

thedee
May 22nd 2010, 01:45 PM
The subject of this thread is the 6th seal. I asked you if you noticed that the GT is over when the 6th seal arrives. Did you notice that?

Shalom

The GT is over when Christ returns with all His Saints in Rev 19.

thedee
May 22nd 2010, 01:46 PM
The subject of this thread is the 6th seal. I asked you if you noticed that the GT is over when the 6th seal arrives. Did you notice that?

Shalom

That is just a slick way to say that you don't know?

When does the seperation of the sheep and goats take place and to whom?

Servant89
May 22nd 2010, 02:11 PM
The GT is over when Christ returns with all His Saints in Rev 19.

That is why we can not reach agreement. The day we both use the Scriptures to argue a point is when we will all agree. Where does it say in the Bible that the GT ends when Christ returns with all his saints? Show the verse please.

I showed you the passage and you do not believe it because it violates your pre-trib belief. Here it is again:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That is when the Bible says the GT ends. That is when GOD said it ends. Believe Him!

Shalom

Servant89
May 22nd 2010, 02:20 PM
That is just a slick way to say that you don't know? When does the separation of the sheep and goats take place and to whom?

I do not particularly care to impress anyone here with my knowledge. Let me prove it to you. I DO NOT KNOW. I ADMIT IT. I do not know when exactly that happens. Matthew 25:31-32 does not give us any reference in time for that. If you know how many months or days after the 6th seal, educate us.

With regards of that being a slick way... no it is not. It is the Jesus way of treating people that just wont answer questions.

Mar 11:28 And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?
29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him?
32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.

Shalom

thedee
May 22nd 2010, 02:25 PM
That is why we can not reach agreement. The day we both use the Scriptures to argue a point is when we will all agree. Where does it say in the Bible that the GT ends when Christ returns with all his saints? Show the verse please.

I showed you the passage and you do not believe it because it violates your pre-trib belief. Here it is again:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That is when the Bible says the GT ends. That is when GOD said it ends. Believe Him!

Shalom

Read verse 30... After the tribulaton Christ will return with all His saints... when Christ is here.... It will be over... or I should say end quickly.

thedee
May 22nd 2010, 02:27 PM
I do not particularly care to impress anyone here with my knowledge. Let me prove it to you. I DO NOT KNOW. I ADMIT IT. I do not know when exactly that happens. Matthew 25:31-32 does not give us any reference in time for that. If you know how many months or days after the 6th seal, educate us.

With regards of that being a slick way... no it is not. It is the Jesus way of treating people that just wont answer questions.

Mar 11:28 And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?
29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him?
32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.

Shalom

My point is this.... If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats.

This is something I also am/need studying more.

Servant89
May 22nd 2010, 02:28 PM
The Bible states in Acts 3:21 that Jesus must remain in heaven (will not come down to rapture us) until the time of restitution of all things.

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Webster dictionary defines “restitution” as “something restored back to its original owner”. The 7th trumpet is also the time when all the kingdoms of this world will be restored back to their rightful owner (Jesus Christ, Rev 11:15).

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

What a coincidence!!! Again, pointing to the last trumpet found in the Bible, the 7th trumpet!!! How many times does the Bible have to repeat the same mesage for people to believe it? You know why they don't believe the Word? The Bible says that when confronted with the choice of holding on to the Word of God, or the traditions of men, that people consistently will prefer the traditions of men (I call it the heard mentality).

Mk 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mk 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is why the word "tradition" in Greek (paradosis) adds up to 666 (it is a satanic tool to nullify the word of God and make it null and void of no effect).

Shalom

Servant89
May 22nd 2010, 02:29 PM
My point is this.... If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats.

This is something I also am/need studying more.

That is a good point and I never thought about it before. I have to consider that.

Shalom

Servant89
May 22nd 2010, 02:33 PM
Read verse 30... After the tribulaton Christ will return with all His saints... when Christ is here.... It will be over... or I should say end quickly.

You do not believe the GT ends in Mat 24:29?

Shalom

Servant89
May 22nd 2010, 02:37 PM
When does the seperation of the sheep and goats take place and to whom?

The following Scriptures point to the idea that not all the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

See also the following Scriptures:

Zec 8:20-23
Mic 4:1-5
Eze 39:2; 37:24-28; 30:1-12; 20:38
Jer 50:16
Isa 66:19; 61:6; 49:22-23; 45:20; 27:13; 24:1,6; 17:12-14; 13:12-14

Shalom

thedee
May 22nd 2010, 02:52 PM
You do not believe the GT ends in Mat 24:29?

Shalom

I believe Mat 24:30 is referring to Christ Second Coming (Rev 19:11-16). I believe the whole point of the Second Coming is to rescue Israel from Armageddon. Then Revelation starts and the 1000 years begin.

This is one of the reason why I believe the Rapture and Second Comming have two totally different purposes.
1) Rapture is to catch His Bride in the air... He does not come to the earth at this point.
2) Second Coming Christ returns with all His saints (including bride) to rescue Israel at Armageddon.... He returns to the earth

I believe that after Revelation 4 it is very Jewish. We do read of the beheaded saints but other than that it is Jewish. For Revelation 4:1 says "After these things" (meta tauta). I believe it is saying after the Church period (Revelation 2 & 3). Because in Revelation 1:19 it says 3 things:
1) which you have seen
2) which are (Church period)
3) which will take place after this (meta tauta) after #2

I appreciate the discussion. I always like hearing others views.

ServantoftheKing
May 22nd 2010, 02:55 PM
My point is this.... If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats.

This is something I also am/need studying more.

This is a good question. Being post-trib amil, I believe that the rapture occurs at the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial. I see these all as separate passages all describing the same point in time. Notice that the judgment of the dead is found in the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:18). The 6th Seal contains the same day of the Lord imagery as found in Matt 24:29-31. The 6th Seal is the Day of the Lord. Joel 2 and Joel 3 contain detailed accounts of the same. Joel 3 even includes a description of the harvest (Joel 3:13-16). The harvest is the same as is described in Matt 13 when Jesus says the wheat and the tares would be allowed to grow until the time of the harvest when all would be gathered then separated at the same time (dead in Christ rise, the living in Christ are raptured, and those that remain and are lost are wiped out at Armageddon). After Armageddon, when all is finished, we go to the white throne judgment as described in Rev. 20 (which is the actual separation of the wheat and the goats).

Does this fit with Paul's description in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53? Yes. He says we are all changed at the last trumpet (I believe that to be the 7th trumpet in which we see the judgment of the dead). Paul even gives us the reason for the changing (rapture). We are not changed to spare us from tribulation, but rather to change us from corruptible to incorruptible bodies for the next event will be us standing before God at the white throne judgment.

Is everyone else wiped out at the Day of the Lord (Armageddon)? Yes. Read what Isaiah says in Isaiah 13:9-13 when he speaks of the Day of the Lord. He says in verse 12, "I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold, and mankind than the gold of Ophir."

Zephaniah writes the following concerning the Day of the Lord: "...and all the earth will be devoured in the fire of His jealousy, for He will make a complete end, indeed a terrifying one, of all the inhabitants of the earth." Joel writes of the Harvest on the Day of the Lord. Isaiah and Zephaniah make it plain that that day will be mankind's last. The 6th Seal is the Day of the Lord (which is why all those on the earth attribute the destruction of the 6th Seal directly to Christ - "hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb.")

Why do I believe this occurs at the end of the thousand years? Well if the 6th Seal and 7th Vial are the same, then it does occur at the end of the thousand years (battle of Gog and Magog described in Rev 20 and also in Ezekiel 38-39). We see the exact same imagery used in Ezekiel 38:18-22 as is used in the 7th Vial. Compare the two and see if you see the same. Rev 20 is a summary chapter of all that leads up to the Day of the Lord.

Note also that the harvest of Rev 14 is the same as Joel 3. In Rev 14 you also see an angel flying saying "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great." Babylon the Great's fall is at the 7th Vial.

I hope that helps with when the separation occurs.

God Bless,

ServantoftheKing

ServantoftheKing
May 22nd 2010, 02:58 PM
I believe Mat 24:30 is referring to Christ Second Coming (Rev 19:11-16). I believe the whole point of the Second Coming is to rescue Israel from Armageddon. Then Revelation starts and the 1000 years begin.

This is one of the reason why I believe the Rapture and Second Comming have two totally different purposes.
1) Rapture is to catch His Bride in the air... He does not come to the earth at this point.
2) Second Coming Christ returns with all His saints (including bride) to rescue Israel at Armageddon.... He returns to the earth

I believe that after Revelation 4 it is very Jewish. We do read of the beheaded saints but other than that it is Jewish. For Revelation 4:1 says "After these things" (meta tauta). I believe it is saying after the Church period (Revelation 2 & 3). Because in Revelation 1:19 it says 3 things:
1) which you have seen
2) which are (Church period)
3) which will take place after this (meta tauta) after #2

I appreciate the discussion. I always like hearing others views.

Or perhaps Rev 1:19 can be interpreted:
1) which you have seen (past from John's perspective)
2) which are (present from John's perspective) - I don't know that we're given enough information here to say this part refers to "the Church Age"
3) which will take place after this (future from John's perspective)

In which case, Rev 4:1-2 is a call only to John to come up and start writing about what the future will hold.

God Bless,

ServantoftheKing

Diggindeeper
May 22nd 2010, 03:36 PM
Or perhaps Rev 1:19 can be interpreted:
1) which you have seen (past from John's perspective)
2) which are (present from John's perspective) - I don't know that we're given enough information here to say this part refers to "the Church Age"
3) which will take place after this (future from John's perspective)

In which case, Rev 4:1-2 is a call only to John to come up and start writing about what the future will hold.

God Bless,

ServantoftheKing

Plus, notice that John (and only John!) was told to 'come up here'. Then, John (and ONLY John) was caught up into heaven.

thedee
May 22nd 2010, 05:56 PM
Plus, notice that John (and only John!) was told to 'come up here'. Then, John (and ONLY John) was caught up into heaven.

But also notice that after John in Revelation 4:1 was told to "come up here" that the Chruch is not mentioned anymore. Yes, there are tribulation saints but I don't believe that is the same group of people in Revleation 2 & 3.

Please also read Proverbs 25:7 and then Read Revelation 4:1.... Take note of "come up here"... nkjv

ServantoftheKing
May 22nd 2010, 06:30 PM
But also notice that after John in Revelation 4:1 was told to "come up here" that the Chruch is not mentioned anymore. Yes, there are tribulation saints but I don't believe that is the same group of people in Revleation 2 & 3.

Please also read Proverbs 25:7 and then Read Revelation 4:1.... Take note of "come up here"... nkjv

thedee,

While it may be true that the word "church" is not found, it is incorrect to say that the Church is not mentioned after Revelation 4. It is true that the phrase "tribulation saints" is not found. There are numerous passages in Revelation where believers are mentioned, but never in the context that they started the tribulation period lost and were saved after the Church suddenly disappeared.

"I saw the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained..." (Rev 6:10)

"...until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also." (Rev 6:11)

"Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads." (Rev 7:3)

See also the following:
Rev7:9-14
Rev 11:18
Rev:12:11
Rev 12:17
Rev 13:7
Rev 13:10
Rev 14:12
Rev 17:6
Rev 18:4
Rev 18:24

You will find believers referred to by other names than the "Church" but there are believers in Revelation. We can't base doctrine on the fact that a single word is not mentioned and then add the phrase "tribulation saints" to make it all fit when "tribulation saints" is not found.

I do know where you are coming from. I once believed as you do. The good thing is, disagreeing on this issue (seeing as how it is not a salvation issue) does not stop you and I from being brethren in Christ.

God Bless,
ServantoftheKing

Amos_with_goats
May 22nd 2010, 06:43 PM
thedee,

While it may be true that the word "church" is not found, it is incorrect to say that the Church is not mentioned after Revelation 4. It is true that the phrase "tribulation saints" is not found. There are numerous passages in Revelation where believers are mentioned, but never in the context that they started the tribulation period lost and were saved after the Church suddenly disappeared.

"I saw the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained..." (Rev 6:10)

"...until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also." (Rev 6:11)

"Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads." (Rev 7:3)

See also the following:
Rev7:9-14
Rev 11:18
Rev:12:11
Rev 12:17
Rev 13:7
Rev 13:10
Rev 14:12
Rev 17:6
Rev 18:4
Rev 18:24

You will find believers referred to by other names than the "Church" but there are believers in Revelation. We can't base doctrine on the fact that a single word is not mentioned and then add the phrase "tribulation saints" to make it all fit when "tribulation saints" is not found.

I do know where you are coming from. I once believed as you do. The good thing is, disagreeing on this issue (seeing as how it is not a salvation issue) does not stop you and I from being brethren in Christ.

God Bless,
ServantoftheKing

Good reply. I am posting both to say AMEN, to what you said but also to the way you said it. :)

I might have just 'repped' you, but mine seem to be continually burnt out.

shootingdead
May 22nd 2010, 08:01 PM
Why do I believe this occurs at the end of the thousand years?ServantoftheKing please can i ask who you think these are?

Revelation 20:4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Servant89
May 22nd 2010, 08:13 PM
But also notice that after John in Revelation 4:1 was told to "come up here" that the Chruch is not mentioned anymore.

Doctrine should be based on what IS in the Bible, not on what IS NOT in the Bible.


Yes, there are tribulation saints but I don't believe that is the same group of people in Revleation 2 & 3.

That is a recurring problem. Whenever the Bible contradits the position, the position remains. It is clear the group are gentiles, not Jews.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

They are not JEWS.

Shalom

thedee
May 22nd 2010, 10:12 PM
Doctrine should be based on what IS in the Bible, not on what IS NOT in the Bible.



That is a recurring problem. Whenever the Bible contradits the position, the position remains. It is clear the group are gentiles, not Jews.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

They are not JEWS.

Shalom

It could be Jews or Gentiles.... not sure what your whole point is here.

If right before the second comming the rapture takes place then when does then marriage and the marriage supper take place?

Kingdom Studies
May 22nd 2010, 10:49 PM
Thank you Servant89.

In revelation, which of the events are in the first half, and which are in the second?

In Matthew 24, Jesus refers to the signs of the last days, but the only "timeframe" that He points to specifically is "when you see the Abomination".
This leaves me wondering if all the events listed in the Seals, Trumpets and bowls are not encompassed wholly in the final 42 months.

Servant89
May 28th 2010, 02:00 AM
Thank you Servant89.

In revelation, which of the events are in the first half, and which are in the second?

In Matthew 24, Jesus refers to the signs of the last days, but the only "timeframe" that He points to specifically is "when you see the Abomination".
This leaves me wondering if all the events listed in the Seals, Trumpets and bowls are not encompassed wholly in the final 42 months.

There is plenty data in history to show that the first four seals occurred already. The fifth seal is at the end of the tribulation (Rev 6:11).

There is plenty data in history to show that the first three trumpets occurred already.

There is no biblical data identifying the beginning of Daniel 70th week as the opening of the seals.

Shalom

Servant89
May 28th 2010, 02:03 AM
It could be Jews or Gentiles.... not sure what your whole point is here.

If right before the second comming the rapture takes place then when does then marriage and the marriage supper take place?

After the second coming. Where does it say that the marriage supper has to happen before the rapture?

Because there will be no rapture until there is a resurrection of the dead first. And that is not going to happen until the 6th seal happens first (Job 14:12). And that in turn will not happen until the GT is over (Mat 24:21,29).

Shalom

thedee
May 28th 2010, 03:02 AM
After the second coming. Where does it say that the marriage supper has to happen before the rapture?

Because there will be no rapture until there is a resurrection of the dead first. And that is not going to happen until the 6th seal happens first (Job 14:12). And that in turn will not happen until the GT is over (Mat 24:21,29).

Shalom

Who said the marriage supper happens before the rapture? Revelation 19:7-9 describes the marraige supper of the Lamb which involves His bride, the Church (Eph 5:23-32). Next, Christ descentds with the armies which are in heaven... clothed in fine linen, white and clean (v14) to confront and destroy Antichrist at Armageddon. The Church clearly is part of this large army.

The saints who are present at the marriage supper of the Lamb and who accompany Christ from heaven to reign on earth must be in their glorified bodies and they must have been taken to heaven previously in order to descent from there with Him at Armageddon.

That this resurrection after Armageddon specifically involveds only "the souls of them" who were martyred by Antichrist is, in fact, another argument for a pre-trib Rapture. It indicates that all other saints have previously been resurrected. Then why wait until this late time for these martyrs to be raised? We are told why. Some of these same souls are seen earlier:

I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Revelation 6:9-11

Since all Great Tribulation martyrs are resurrected together and Antichrist kills believers to the very end their resurrection must await the end of Armageddon.

If the resurrection of believers who lived and died prior to the tribulation took place seven years previously, why is the resurrection in Revelation 20 of those slain by Antichrist called "the first resurrection"? It must be in order to show that these martyrs are part of that company, the Church, which has already been resurrected. It specifically says that they "reign with Him [Christ] a thousand years" (Revelation 20:6) as do the saints of all ages.

Diggindeeper
May 28th 2010, 03:12 AM
I wonder, thedee, exactly how many 'resurrections' do you see in scripture???

thedee
May 28th 2010, 03:13 AM
I wonder, thedee, exactly how many 'resurrections' do you see in scripture???

two. John 5:29

Diggindeeper
May 28th 2010, 03:59 AM
Who said the marriage supper happens before the rapture? Revelation 19:7-9 describes the marraige supper of the Lamb which involves His bride, the Church (Eph 5:23-32). Next, Christ descentds with the armies which are in heaven... clothed in fine linen, white and clean (v14) to confront and destroy Antichrist at Armageddon. The Church clearly is part of this large army.

The saints who are present at the marriage supper of the Lamb and who accompany Christ from heaven to reign on earth must be in their glorified bodies and they must have been taken to heaven previously in order to descent from there with Him at Armageddon.

That this resurrection after Armageddon specifically involveds only "the souls of them" who were martyred by Antichrist is, in fact, another argument for a pre-trib Rapture. It indicates that all other saints have previously been resurrected. Then why wait until this late time for these martyrs to be raised? We are told why. Some of these same souls are seen earlier:

I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Revelation 6:9-11

Since all Great Tribulation martyrs are resurrected together and Antichrist kills believers to the very end their resurrection must await the end of Armageddon.

If the resurrection of believers who lived and died prior to the tribulation took place seven years previously, why is the resurrection in Revelation 20 of those slain by Antichrist called "the first resurrection"? It must be in order to show that these martyrs are part of that company, the Church, which has already been resurrected. It specifically says that they "reign with Him [Christ] a thousand years" (Revelation 20:6) as do the saints of all ages.

The reason i asked is that in the above quote, you name:
1st...a resurrection of believers 7 years prieviously.
2nd...a resurrection after Armageddon specifically involves only "the souls of them" who were martyred by Antichrist

But there is still to be, according to scriptures yet another resurrection of unbelievers, the unjust.


Scriptures only speak of 2 resurrections. That of the JUST and the UNJUST. I am confused about so many 'resurrections' in your pre-trib belief.

thedee
May 28th 2010, 04:35 AM
The reason i asked is that in the above quote, you name:
1st...a resurrection of believers 7 years prieviously.
2nd...a resurrection after Armageddon specifically involves only "the souls of them" who were martyred by Antichrist

But there is still to be, according to scriptures yet another resurrection of unbelievers, the unjust.


Scriptures only speak of 2 resurrections. That of the JUST and the UNJUST. I am confused about so many 'resurrections' in your pre-trib belief.

I understand.

In John 5:29 it speaks of two resurrections. Life(First) and Condemation.

I believe that the First Resurrection happens in stages:
1) Christ
2) Bride of Christ
3) Tribulation saints

An example is Revelation 20 only speaks of the beheaded/tribulation saints who were resurrected.

The Second Resurrection happens after the 1000 year millenium... again Revelation 20.

Raybob
May 28th 2010, 06:50 AM
I understand.

In John 5:29 it speaks of two resurrections. Life(First) and Condemation.

I believe that the First Resurrection happens in stages:
1) Christ
2) Bride of Christ
3) Tribulation saints

An example is Revelation 20 only speaks of the beheaded/tribulation saints who were resurrected.

The Second Resurrection happens after the 1000 year millenium... again Revelation 20.

John 5:29, in context, speaks of one resurrection moment for all.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5:28-29)

thedee
May 28th 2010, 01:40 PM
John 5:29, in context, speaks of one resurrection moment for all.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5:28-29)

I don't think this is speaking of a literal hour. Revelation 20 says there will be 1000 years seperating the two resurrections. Just like the "day of the Lord" is not one literal day.

Diggindeeper
May 28th 2010, 03:45 PM
Resurrection in 'stages' is a teaching that has only been going around for the past few years! Maybe ten or 12. Because the pre-tribulation camp must keep coming up with more and more 'raptures' and 'resurrections' to make it appear that the pretribulation rapture theory is factual.

Strange that you think this is speaking of a literal hour, but you see the thousand year period is a literal interpretation...

When the Bible says, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills" (Psalm 50:10) -- does he stop owning them after the ones on 1,000 hills are counted?

There are more hills than that in Tennessee alone, not even counting the cattle on all the hill all over the world.

thedee
May 28th 2010, 04:07 PM
Resurrection in 'stages' is a teaching that has only been going around for the past few years! Maybe ten or 12.

Oh common that is not true.

In Revelation 20 only the beheaded saints are said to be resurrected. When do all the other saints who have died get resurrected?


Strange that you think this is speaking of a literal hour, but you see the thousand year period is a literal interpretation...

It is called rightly dividing the word of truth.

Of course the 1000 year millenium is 1000 years. In John 5:28 I don't believe hours is a literal hour because Revelation 20 says there is a 1000 year difference in Resurrections.



When the Bible says, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills" (Psalm 50:10) -- does he stop owning them after the ones on 1,000 hills are counted?

I sense sarcasm.

Raybob
May 29th 2010, 03:44 AM
...Of course the 1000 year millenium is 1000 years. In John 5:28 I don't believe hours is a literal hour because Revelation 20 says there is a 1000 year difference in Resurrections...

Jesus didn't say "hours", He said "the hour" or the time will come. What happens, according to Jesus, at that hour or time?

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;...(Joh 5:28-29)

Just who is not included in this resurrection? Those alive when He comes. We know they rise after the dead in Christ from 1Thes. 4. Considering the many verses in the bible that speak of one judgment day or one resurrection day, and only one passage in the entire bible which might be interpreted as the "first" resurrection as being a literal physical one apart from the one on judgment day, to rightly divide the word would be to go with the many passages rather than the one interpretation of one verse, rightly speaking.

Raybob

thedee
May 29th 2010, 04:07 PM
Considering the many verses in the bible that speak of one judgment day

Are you referring to the Great White Throne judgement in Revelation 20:11+? Are you saying those who are in Christ are included in this or is this jut the unsaved?

Raybob
May 29th 2010, 08:36 PM
Are you referring to the Great White Throne judgement in Revelation 20:11+? Are you saying those who are in Christ are included in this or is this jut the unsaved?

Jesus said "ALL" that are in the graves. Daniel said it as well.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:... and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:1-2)

thedee
May 29th 2010, 11:24 PM
Jesus said "ALL" that are in the graves. Daniel said it as well.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:... and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:1-2)

Christains stand at the judgement seat of Christ to receive rewords or suffer loss. The damned will face Christ at the Great White Throne judgement and from there be cast into the lake of fire.

Raybob
May 29th 2010, 11:33 PM
Christains stand at the judgement seat of Christ to receive rewords or suffer loss...

Yes but straight is the way and NARROW is the gate. Many that suffer loss is GREAT loss!

Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
(Luk 13:24-28)

Servant89
May 30th 2010, 12:55 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how people when confronted with the choice of holding on to the Word of God or the Word of man, that they routinely prefer the word of man. And many nullify the Word of God making it null and void of no effect by pointing to the untrustworthiness of word of God and say:

"God lied right there! That is not trully the first resurrection, there is one before that one." or
"God lied right there! That is not the last trumpet, that trumpet in there really goes before the first trumpet, trust me!" or
"God lied right there! That is not really the last day, you can't interpret that as written."

When the word of God violates my theology, I change my theology.

Shalom

Diggindeeper
May 30th 2010, 02:19 AM
Servant89, I tried to rep you, but I gotta spread some around first! I DO give IOU's!

Kingdom Studies
May 30th 2010, 03:53 PM
Servant89 -

Are there any books on eschatology that you would recommend?
I have read so much already, but nothing I've found comes as close as you have to explaining it the way I'm beginning to understand it.

Thanks again!

Servant89
May 31st 2010, 01:31 PM
Servant89 -

Are there any books on eschatology that you would recommend?
I have read so much already, but nothing I've found comes as close as you have to explaining it the way I'm beginning to understand it.

Thanks again!

Yes I do. When it comes to understanding prophecy the best book is the Bible. It is critical that you understand this. When it comes to understanding the signs of the times, you can not count on me. You can not count on any man expert. Why? Because that is precisely what God instructed us. In the big four chapters of the Bible dealing with the signs of the second coming God said: Let no man deceive you (Mat 24; Luk 21; Mar 13; 2Th 2). You are not to trust any man on this subject, not even the greatest man born of women (John the Baptist Mat 11:11), because when people asked John if he was Elijah the prophet he denied it and Jesus had to correct him. That, in spite that the arcangel Gabriel himself was sent to his father, told him that John was going to come in the Spirit and power of Elijan and John even dressed like Elijah. God will not reveal stuff to you on this subject as long as you count on or trust man to guide you on his area. When the disciples failed to get the point about prophesies of Messiah, the Bible does not say that they falied because their teachers did not teach them well, it says it was because they did not know the Scriptures.

Jn 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

We can not get this by looking at the picture on the puzzle box, we need to assemble the puzzle ourselves.

Shalom

thedee
May 31st 2010, 07:54 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how people when confronted with the choice of holding on to the Word of God or the Word of man, that they routinely prefer the word of man. And many nullify the Word of God making it null and void of no effect by pointing to the untrustworthiness of word of God and say:

"God lied right there! That is not the last trumpet, that trumpet in there really goes before the first trumpet, trust me!"

In 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 it talks about the Trumpet:

"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Cor 15:52
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." - 1 Thes 4:16

Why is it that you link this with the judgement Trumpets of Revelation?

Servant89
May 31st 2010, 08:02 PM
In 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 it talks about the Trumpet:

"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Cor 15:52
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." - 1 Thes 4:16

Why is it that you link this with the judgement Trumpets of Revelation?

1. The Bible states that Jesus will resurrect his elect (John 6:39,40,44) on the last day. The last day is when time runs out, when time is no more, and that day is clearly stated to arrive at the 7th trumpet (Rev 10:6-7). Ephesians 1:10 states that the second coming (with resurrection and rapture) will occur at the fullness of times (another term for the last day, when there is time no more).
2. According to 1Cor 15:52, the rapture will take place at the last trumpet (not before the first trumpet). The word “last” implies there will be some before and none after. The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet.
3. The second coming will be like the day of Lot, that the SAME DAY that Lot was taken away by angels, on THE SAME DAY fire and brimstone rained on this world (Luke 17:29-30; Gen 19:22).
4. The Church will rest when we get raptured; and that comes after the GT (2Th 1:6-8) on the day that Jesus comes in flaming fire to punish this world.
5. The Bible states the day of wrath arrives at the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:18).
6. The Bible states in Acts 3:21 that Jesus must remain in heaven (will not come down to rapture us) until the time of restitution of all things. Webster dictionary defines “restitution” as “something restored back to its original owner”. The 7th trumpet is also the time when all the kingdoms of this world will be restored back to their rightful owner (Jesus Christ, Rev 11:15).

Shalom

thedee
May 31st 2010, 08:40 PM
According to 1Cor 15:52, the rapture will take place at the last trumpet (not before the first trumpet). The word “last” implies there will be some before and none after. The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet.

First of all, I don't see any Rapture taking place except for the two witnesses in Revelation 11.
Second it says the rapture will happen at the last trump NOT BEFORE the last trump. In Revelation 11:15-19 (7th trumpet) there is no mention of a rapture.

I do have an opinion on what "trumpet" and "last trumpet" are referring to in 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15. I will try to point it out later but first one to examine your view.

Raybob
May 31st 2010, 08:54 PM
First of all, I don't see any Rapture taking place except for the two witnesses in Revelation 11.
Second it says the rapture will happen at the last trump NOT BEFORE the last trump. In Revelation 11:15-19 (7th trumpet) there is no mention of a rapture.

I do have an opinion on what "trumpet" and "last trumpet" are referring to in 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15. I will try to point it out later but first one to examine your view.

Dee,
You know from 1 Thes. 4 that the dead in Christ rise first. You also know from the words of Jesus that everyone, Christians and all the others are raised the same moment that the dead in Christ rise. It's all the same time.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5:28-29)

Servant89
May 31st 2010, 11:11 PM
Dee,
You know from 1 Thes. 4 that the dead in Christ rise first. You also know from the words of Jesus that everyone, Christians and all the others are raised the same moment that the dead in Christ rise. It's all the same time.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5:28-29)

Excellent point. ANd because the resurrection happens a blinking of an eye earlier, look for the timing of the resurrection and you will find the timing of the rapture.

Shalom

thedee
Jun 1st 2010, 12:38 AM
Excellent point. ANd because the resurrection happens a blinking of an eye earlier, look for the timing of the resurrection and you will find the timing of the rapture.

Shalom

In regards to post #91... please show me where a rapture happens at the 7th trumpet in Revelation??? I only see the two witnesses being being told to "come up here" in Revelation 11.

I want to know the reasoning behind why you link the "Trump" and "last trump" of 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 with the 7th judgement trumpet of Revelation.

kay-gee
Jun 1st 2010, 01:24 AM
I don't think this is speaking of a literal hour. Revelation 20 says there will be 1000 years seperating the two resurrections. Just like the "day of the Lord" is not one literal day.


Yet you remain convinced that this is a literal 1000 years.

all the best...

Servant89
Jun 1st 2010, 01:41 AM
In regards to post #91... please show me where a rapture happens at the 7th trumpet in Revelation??? I only see the two witnesses being being told to "come up here" in Revelation 11.

I want to know the reasoning behind why you link the "Trump" and "last trump" of 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 with the 7th judgement trumpet of Revelation.

1. The rapture (the day of the Lord) will take place on the day that God’s wrath is poured on earth (2 Thes 1:6-8; Isa 13:9-13; Psalm 18:7-19; Rev 14:13-20).
2. The Bible states the day of wrath arrives at the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:18).
3. The second coming will be like the day of Lot, that the SAME DAY that Lot was taken away by angels, on THE SAME DAY fire and brimstone rained on this world (Luke 17:29-30; Gen 19:22).
4. The Church will rest when we get raptured; and that comes after the GT (2Th 1:6-8) on the day that Jesus comes in flaming fire to punish this world.
5. The Bible states that Jesus will resurrect his elect (John 6:39,40,44) on the last day. The last day is when time runs out, when time is no more, and that day is clearly stated to arrive at the 7th trumpet (Rev 10:6-7). Ephesians 1:10 states that the second coming (with resurrection and rapture) will occur at the fullness of times (another term for the last day, when there is time no more).
6. According to 1Cor 15:52, the rapture will take place at the last trumpet (not before the first trumpet). The word “last” implies there will be some before and none after. The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet.
7. The Bible states in Acts 3:21 that Jesus must remain in heaven (will not come down to rapture us) until the time of restitution of all things. Webster dictionary defines “restitution” as “something restored back to its original owner”. The 7th trumpet is also the time when all the kingdoms of this world will be restored back to their rightful owner (Jesus Christ, Rev 11:15).

Shalom

thedee
Jun 1st 2010, 02:23 AM
The rapture (the day of the Lord) will take place on the day that God’s wrath is poured on earth (2 Thes 1:6-8; Isa 13:9-13; Psalm 18:7-19; Rev 14:13-20).

Are you trying to say that the "day of the Lord" is one literal day?


The Bible states the day of wrath arrives at the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:18).

Actually His wrath starts much earlier... Rev 6:16,17


The second coming will be like the day of Lot, that the SAME DAY that Lot was taken away by angels, on THE SAME DAY fire and brimstone rained on this world (Luke 17:29-30; Gen 19:22).

It also says "until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destoryed them all" - Luke 17:27
Wasn't Noah in the ark 7 days before the flood started?

Also, keep in mind that Lot was told to escape or flee to the mountains. It reminded me of Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains". In other words, the jews are told when they see the Antichrist step foot in the temple(abomination of desolation) in the midth of the 70th week of Daniel they are told to get the heck out of there and flee to the mountains. These are jews.


According to 1Cor 15:52, the rapture will take place at the last trumpet (not before the first trumpet). The word “last” implies there will be some before and none after. The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet.

In regards to the "Last Trump" as spoken in 1 Corinthians 15 people who oppose the pre-trib rapture link "the last trump" with the Trumpets in Revelation. I was thinking on what possibly is "the last trump". Being there is a last trump then there must of been a first trump. Here is what I was thinking:

1) Could the last trump be speaking of the feast of trumpets?
2) When the Lord speaks his voice is as a trumpet (Rev 4:1)
3) or consider the following:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." - 1 Thes 4:16

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." - 1 Cor 15:51-52

Notice the people who are alive are changed at the "last trumpet" but the dead in Christ are raised at the "trumpet". So is it possible that the "first trumpet" the dead are raised and at the "last trumpet" we who are alive are caught up?


Shalom

Again, you have yet to show me the Rapture happening at the 7th Trumpet in the book of Revelation.

Diggindeeper
Jun 1st 2010, 03:40 AM
Thedee, here are some scriptures I pray you will study for yourself. Please...

Reveletaion 8:1-
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Verses 6-7
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed.....

Verse 8
8 And the second angel sounded, and.....

Verse 10
10 And the third angel sounded, and.....

Verse 12
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and.....

Verse 13
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!



Revelation 9:1
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw.....

Revelation 9:13-14
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet.....

Revelation 10:7

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

thedee
Jun 1st 2010, 04:25 AM
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The question here is what mystery is being talked about? Romans 11:25; Eph 3:3-11; Col 1:27 - 2:3; Col 4:3 etc etc...

The day will come when all questions will be answered.

Diggindeeper
Jun 1st 2010, 04:40 AM
Again, you have yet to show me the Rapture happening at the 7th Trumpet in the book of Revelation.

But...you wanted to be shown a 'rapture' happening at the 7th trumpet in the book of Revelation. And just before that you asked:

"
Notice the people who are alive are changed at the "last trumpet" but the dead in Christ are raised at the "trumpet". So is it possible that the "first trumpet" the dead are raised and at the "last trumpet" we who are alive are caught up?


I was showing there are ONLY 7 trumpets. All these other people here are showing that the 'dead in Christ MUST rise first...' And THEN, (and ONLY THEN) will those who are still on earth, alive, (who have not yet died), go to be with him.



You seem to be inserting an additional trumpet....

thedee
Jun 1st 2010, 12:27 PM
You seem to be inserting an additional trumpet....

I am inserting a trumpet? Notice I was writting possibilities. I was only suggesting being there was a "last trumpet" then there must of been a first trumpet. Even tho Paul does not come out and say that it was just a thought.


But...you wanted to be shown a 'rapture' happening at the 7th trumpet in the book of Revelation

I am not convinced that a rapture happens at the 7th trumpet in the book of Revelation. Nobody will be able to convince me only though the Word and prayer will I changed on this subject.

Servant89
Jun 1st 2010, 10:21 PM
Are you trying to say that the "day of the Lord" is one literal day? .

Don’t change the subject. The day of the Lord (1Th 4:16-5:2) is also the rapture and it is not happening until the 6th seal. Whether it last 24 hours or 1,000 years it will not happen until the 6th seal is opened first.


Actually His wrath starts much earlier... Rev 6:16,17.

When are people going to stop nullifying the word of God with their interpretation? If the Bible says it is at the 7th trumpet, it is. If it also says it arrives at the 7th seal, that is true too. They are both true because when both occur, there are lightings, and voices, and hail and thunder and a great earthquake, which was rehearsed back in Exo 19:16-19 when God came down. They are the same event (assuming the Bible speaks the truth all the time).


It also says "until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all" - Luke 17:27 Wasn't Noah in the ark 7 days before the flood started? .

Yes, 7 days, not 7 years, not 3.5 years.


Also, keep in mind that Lot was told to escape or flee to the mountains. It reminded me of Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains". In other words, the jews are told when they see the Antichrist step foot in the temple(abomination of desolation) in the midth of the 70th week of Daniel they are told to get the heck out of there and flee to the mountains. These are jews. .

Haven’t you heard this? This is also true!

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


In regards to the "Last Trump" as spoken in 1 Corinthians 15 people who oppose the pre-trib rapture link "the last trump" with the Trumpets in Revelation. I was thinking on what possibly is "the last trump". Being there is a last trump then there must of been a first trump. Here is what I was thinking:
1) Could the last trump be speaking of the feast of trumpets?
2) When the Lord speaks his voice is as a trumpet (Rev 4:1)
3) or consider the following:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." - 1 Thes 4:16
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." - 1 Cor 15:51-52
Notice the people who are alive are changed at the "last trumpet" but the dead in Christ are raised at the "trumpet". So is it possible that the "first trumpet" the dead are raised and at the "last trumpet" we who are alive are caught up? .
Again, you have yet to show me the Rapture happening at the 7th Trumpet in the book of Revelation.

That is amazing, you quoted 1Cor 15:51-52 which says the rapture is at the last trumpet and you refuse to believe it is at the last trumpet in Revelation(the 7th), but without any Scriptural evidence you are ready to believe the resurrection is separated from the rapture by 6 trumpets?

Shalom

thedee
Jun 1st 2010, 10:37 PM
Don’t change the subject. The day of the Lord (1Th 4:16-5:2) is also the rapture and it is not happening until the 6th seal. Whether it last 24 hours or 1,000 years it will not happen until the 6th seal is opened first.

Would you not consider the tribulation period as part of the "day of the Lord"?


When are people going to stop nullifying the word of God with their interpretation?That is what I would like to know.


If the Bible says it is at the 7th trumpet, it is. If it also says it arrives at the 7th seal, that is true tooNo not the 7th seal it is the 6th seal.

If it is the Lamb who breaks the seals open then who's wrath is it? The Lamb's of course. The wrath of God starts at the first seal.


Haven’t you heard this? This is also true!

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.God is turning His focus back to the Jews. What do you think the whole point of Armegeddon is all about?


That is amazing, you quoted 1Cor 15:51-52 which says the rapture is at the last trumpet and you refuse to believe it is at the last trumpet in Revelation(the 7th), but without any Scriptural evidence you are ready to believe the resurrection is separated from the rapture by 6 trumpets?I am also amazed. Revelation does not mention any rapture at the 7th trump. Only the two witnesses are told to "come up here".

In the old testament a trumpet blast could refer to a gathering. What do you think the Rapture is?. It of course is a gathering in the air. Therefore you should see the difference between a a trumpet blast that is a call for a gathering and a trumpet blast that is for judgement. See the difference yet?

Diggindeeper
Jun 2nd 2010, 12:31 AM
Would you not consider the tribulation period as part of the "day of the Lord"?

That is what I would like to know.

No not the 7th seal it is the 6th seal.

If it is the Lamb who breaks the seals open then who's wrath is it? The Lamb's of course. The wrath of God starts at the first seal.

God is turning His focus back to the Jews. What do you think the whole point of Armegeddon is all about?

I am also amazed. Revelation does not mention any rapture at the 7th trump. Only the two witnesses are told to "come up here".

In the old testament a trumpet blast could refer to a gathering. What do you think the Rapture is?. It of course is a gathering in the air. Therefore you should see the difference between a a trumpet blast that is a call for a gathering and a trumpet blast that is for judgement. See the difference yet?

Thedee, where do you see that in scripture? That we should see the difference between a 'trumpet blast that is a call for a gathering and a trumpet blast that is for judgement'???

And no, the time you call the 'great tribulation' is not part of the day of the Lord. Here is what I find according to scripture about the coming 'day of the Lord'.

'Day of the Lord'
1 Thess 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Pet 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Pet 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


Revelation 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Clearly, this all happens at the same time....Show us clearly and plainly scriptures that are contrary to this, in Revelation 11:18. Scriptues that show any rapture BEFORE this.

You see, many of us used to believe as you do, and I think I can speak for many here who can testify that it was not easy to change that belief. But as we saw, more and more, that scripture does not support a private rapture. In fact, the Bible most certainly does not support several resurrections, spaced at different times for different people.

You said back in post #91, "I do have an opinion on what "trumpet" and "last trumpet" are referring to in 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15. I will try to point it out later but first one to examine your view. "

Since several of us have offered our view with scriptures, I think it only fair to give you your chance to explain your statement above, like you said you would do.

Servant89
Jun 2nd 2010, 01:41 AM
Would you not consider the tribulation period as part of the "day of the Lord"?

No! The Bible says it very clear. It is written:

The GT ends with the 6th seal (Mat 24:21,29-31)

The day of the Lord starts AFTER the 6th seal. It is written:

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


If it is the Lamb who breaks the seals open then who's wrath is it? The Lamb's of course. The wrath of God starts at the first seal.

There is no verse that states that. This is what is written, the wrath arrives at the 6th seal.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?God is turning His focus back to the Jews.


I am also amazed. Revelation does not mention any rapture at the 7th trump. Only the two witnesses are told to "come up here".

And who said it has to be shown in Revelation? 1Corinthians 15:51-52 is good enough for me.


In the old testament a trumpet blast could refer to a gathering. What do you think the Rapture is?. It of course is a gathering in the air. Therefore you should see the difference between a a trumpet blast that is a call for a gathering and a trumpet blast that is for judgement. See the difference yet?

Thanks for mentioning the GATHERING, this is what the Bible says about the rapture (what you and I call the gathering together of the saints with Jesus Christ).

2:The 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Shalom

thedee
Jun 2nd 2010, 02:09 AM
Thedee, where do you see that in scripture? That we should see the difference between a 'trumpet blast that is a call for a gathering and a trumpet blast that is for judgement'???


My point is... the trump blast in 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 are a blast to call for a gathering not a judgement blast.

"Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation." - Numbers 10:2-3

"But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm." - Numbers 10:7


And no, the time you call the 'great tribulation' is not part of the day of the Lord

I would disagree. The day of the Lord is not a literal 24 hour day is clear from reading only a few of the references to it. Far too much happens to occur in one day. Frequently "the day of the Lord" is referred to as a day of woe, evil, vengeance from God, of indescribable descrutions: "the day of his wrath" (Psalm 110:5); "a destruction from the Almightly" (Joel 1:15); "great and very terrible, who can abide it?" (Joel 2:11); "woe...darkness and not light" (Amos 5:18); "the day of the Lord's anger" (Zephaniah 2:2,3); "that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble... saith the Lord of hosts" (Malachi 4:1) Such descriptions leave no doubt that the day of the Lord includes the Great Tribulation period.

Also read the entire chapter of Joel 2.


You said back in post #91, "I do have an opinion on what "trumpet" and "last trumpet" are referring to in 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15. I will try to point it out later but first one to examine your view. "

Since several of us have offered our view with scriptures, I think it only fair to give you your chance to explain your statement above, like you said you would do.

Read the last section of post #97

Raybob
Jun 2nd 2010, 02:24 AM
My point is... the trump blast in 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 are a blast to call for a gathering not a judgement blast. Where would you get such an idea? Certainly not from scripture.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
(1Th 4:16-5:3)



"Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation." - Numbers 10:2-3

"But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm." - Numbers 10:7..

Your quotes have OT trumpets. In the OT, there were many trumpets all having specific uses. We are reading the NT. In the entire NT, there are seven trumpets, all in the book of Revelation. The "last trumpet" is also referred to in other places of the NT such as 1Cor 15 but there are no other trumpets mentioned in the entire NT except the seven mentioned in Revelation.

thedee
Jun 2nd 2010, 02:31 AM
2:The 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Shalom

When it says "that day shall not come...." this is not the rapture. This is talking about the day of the Lord which includes the Great Tribulation/Second Comming as post #106 explains. It is saying that the day of the Lord will not come unless the "falling away" and the "man of sin is revelaled" first. These two things must come before "that day" to occur.

The falling away that 2 Thes 2:3 is referring to is as you know apostasia. In order for a full blown apostacy to take place the Chruch I believe must be removed. Will there be any faith found during this full blown apostacy going on (Luke 18:8)...?

Also, I want you to examine a paralled going on in 2 Thes 2:

Verse 3: "a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed"
Verses 7,8 "he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed"

The parallel in verse 3 and verse 7 and 8 are as plain as day. They are both referring to the RAPTURE.... COME UP HERE (Revelation 4:1)

thedee
Jun 2nd 2010, 02:38 AM
Where would you get such an idea? Certainly not from scripture.

What do you think the rapture/harpazō is? It is when Christ calls His bride and we meet in the air. That is a gathering.


Your quotes have OT trumpets. In the OT, there were many trumpets all having specific uses. We are reading the NT. In the entire NT, there are seven trumpets, all in the book of Revelation. The "last trumpet" is also referred to in other places of the NT such as 1Cor 15 but there are no other trumpets mentioned in the entire NT except the seven mentioned in Revelation.

Are we now to ignore what the OT says?

Did you forget about Mat 6:2; 24:31; 1 Cor 14:8; Heb 12:9; Rev 1:10; Rev 4:1

Please do your research. When the Lord speaks His voice is descrbed as a trumpet (Rev 1:10; 4:1).

Raybob
Jun 2nd 2010, 02:58 AM
What do you think the rapture/harpazō is? It is when Christ calls His bride and we meet in the air. That is a gathering.
You had said, "My point is... the trump blast in 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 are a blast to call for a gathering not a judgement blast." The trumpet sounds, then the dead rise. Looks to me like that trumpet announces much more than our gathering.

Are we now to ignore what the OT says?

Did you forget about Mat 6:2; 24:31; 1 Cor 14:8; Heb 12:9; Rev 1:10; Rev 4:1

Please do your research. When the Lord speaks His voice is descrbed as a trumpet (Rev 1:10; 4:1).

"As a trumpet" is not a "trumpet" as in the seven trumpets that sound in Revelation. Yes, there are many references to "as a trumpet" but only 7 "trumpets" that sound with extra NT references to the last trumpet.

Raybob

thedee
Jun 2nd 2010, 03:28 AM
You had said, "My point is... the trump blast in 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 are a blast to call for a gathering not a judgement blast." The trumpet sounds, then the dead rise. Looks to me like that trumpet announces much more than our gathering.

ummm, it is a gathering of the dead saints and we who are alive.

Servant89
Jun 3rd 2010, 09:45 AM
When it says "that day shall not come...." this is not the rapture.

What do you call “OUR gathering together with him”? It is plain as day it is referring to the rapture but because it does not fit your theology, it must not be true, right?


This is talking about the day of the Lord which includes the Great Tribulation/Second Coming as post #106 explains.

Where is that in Scripture? That the day of the Lord includes the GT? Where?


It is saying that the day of the Lord will not come unless the "falling away" and the "man of sin is revelaled" first. These two things must come before "that day" to occur.

AMEN!!! But the day of the Lord will not come until the 6th seal is opened, when the moon turns to blood and the 6th seal is after the GT.

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


The falling away that 2 Thes 2:3 is referring to is as you know apostasia. In order for a full blown apostacy to take place the Chruch I BELIEVE must be removed. Will there be any faith found during this full blown apostacy going on (Luke 18:8)...?

Again, reaching a doctrinal conclusion based on your own understanding and reasoning… haven’t you heard?

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

We know what you believe, but there are no verses to back it up.


Also, I want you to examine a paralled going on in 2 Thes 2:

Verse 3: "a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed"
Verses 7,8 "he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed"

The parallel in verse 3 and verse 7 and 8 are as plain as day. They are both referring to the RAPTURE.... COME UP HERE (Revelation 4:1)

Stay tuned for the day of Christ.

Shalom

Servant89
Jun 3rd 2010, 09:52 AM
THE DAY OF CHRIST IN THE BIBLE

The Bible defines the day of Christ as the day in which the church (his bride) is presented to him spotless, without offense and blameless. Every time this term is presented is showing the same thing.

PHI 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

PHI 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

1CO 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1CO 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

PHI 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

2CO 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus Christ.
1TH 2:19 For what is our hope, our joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?

1TH 5:23 And the very God of peace sactify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1TH 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

DID YOU NOTICE THAT LAST ONE? THE RAPTURE WILL HAPPEN WHEN JESUS COMES BACK WITH ALL HIS SAINTS !

AND HERE IS THE KICKER !!! DEAL WITH IT.

2TH 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2TH 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2TH 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

On the next passage, ask yourself the question, When is it that the church will find rest? What day is that?

2TH 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2TH 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2TH 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2TH 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2TH 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Shalom

thedee
Jun 3rd 2010, 02:54 PM
What do you call “OUR gathering together with him”? It is plain as day it is referring to the rapture but because it does not fit your theology, it must not be true, right?

Yes, when it says "our gathering together to Him" that is the rapture... This is when we meet the Lord in the air.

In 2 Thes 2:2 when it says "the day of Christ" or "the day of the Lord" I don't believe this is the rapture. Today we are in the day of grace (Eph 2). When the day of Grace ends then the day of the Lord begins. Read below on the day of the Lord.


Where is that in Scripture? That the day of the Lord includes the GT? Where?

Again, I will repeat myself cause it is clear you are not reading all the post. Here is what I said earlier:

The day of the Lord is not a literal 24 hour day is clear from reading only a few of the references to it. Far too much happens to occur in one day. Frequently "the day of the Lord" is referred to as a day of woe, evil, vengeance from God, of indescribable descrutions: "the day of his wrath" (Psalm 110:5); "a destruction from the Almightly" (Joel 1:15); "great and very terrible, who can abide it?" (Joel 2:11); "woe...darkness and not light" (Amos 5:18); "the day of the Lord's anger" (Zephaniah 2:2,3); "that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble... saith the Lord of hosts" (Malachi 4:1) Such descriptions leave no doubt that the day of the Lord includes the Great Tribulation period.

Also read the entire chapter of Joel 2.


We know what you believe, but there are no verses to back it up.

That is because you must have selective reading turned on


Again, do you not see the parallel here in 2 Thes 2?

Verse 3: "a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed"
Verses 7,8 "he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed"

The parallel in verse 3 and verse 7 and 8 are as plain as day. They are both referring to the RAPTURE.... COME UP HERE (Revelation 4:1)

Kingdom Studies
Jun 3rd 2010, 05:45 PM
Yes, when it says "our gathering together to Him" that is the rapture... This is when we meet the Lord in the air.



Also, I want you to examine a paralled going on in 2 Thes 2:

Verse 3: "a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed"
Verses 7,8 "he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed"

The parallel in verse 3 and verse 7 and 8 are as plain as day. They are both referring to the RAPTURE.... COME UP HERE (Revelation 4:1)

So the "Gathering" is the rapture, and the "falling away" is the rapture?

Basically, this scripture says that the Rapture (gathering) cannot take place until the Rapture (falling away) takes place first....

No wonder there's so much confusion in this interpretation.

thedee
Jun 3rd 2010, 05:51 PM
Basically, this scripture says that the Rapture (gathering) cannot take place until the Rapture (falling away) takes place first....

No wonder there's so much confusion in this interpretation.

No... "that day" (v3) is speaking of the day of the Lord. I already stated that we are in the day of Grace right now. When the day of Grace ends the day of the Lord begins.

It is saying that "that day" will not happen until the "falling away" happens first..... So the day of the Lord won't being until the Rapture takes place thus ending the day of Grace and starting the day of the Lord.

Verse 3: "a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed"
Verses 7,8 "he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed"

Raybob
Jun 3rd 2010, 06:07 PM
No... "that day" (v3) is speaking of the day of the Lord. I already stated that we are in the day of Grace right now. When the day of Grace ends the day of the Lord begins...

Where do you find a "day of Grace" in scripture? You won't. Where in scripture, would you ever find the grace of God ever ending? You won't. You are clearly reading too much into scripture that isn't there. 2Thes.2 says our gathering won't happen until the apostacia happens (falling away) AND that man of sin be revealed first. It's basic rules of english showing subject, predicate and verb. To read it any other way is to twist what is clearly written, IMO.

thedee
Jun 3rd 2010, 06:12 PM
Where do you find a "day of Grace" in scripture? You won't. Where in scripture, would you ever find the grace of God ever ending? You won't. You are clearly reading too much into scripture that isn't there.

Read Ephesians 2


2Thes.2 says our gathering won't happen until the apostacia happens (falling away) AND that man of sin be revealed first. It's basic rules of english showing subject, predicate and verb. To read it any other way is to twist what is clearly written, IMO.

Did you miss post #116 and the parallel I pointed out? Read it again... I even put the text that parallel in color.

Raybob
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:56 PM
Read Ephesians 2
I did but don't see the grace ending.

Did you miss post #116 and the parallel I pointed out? Read it again... I even put the text that parallel in color.I read it but your colors don't change basic grammar laws dealing with subjects and verbs of sentences.

thedee
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:09 PM
I read it but your colors don't change basic grammar laws dealing with subjects and verbs of sentences.

So you can't see the similiarities here?
Verse 3: "a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed"
Verses 7,8 "he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed"

Do you think verse 3 and verse 7,8 are referring to the same thing?

Raybob
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:18 PM
So you can't see the similiarities here?
Verse 3: "a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed"
Verses 7,8 "he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed"

Do you think verse 3 and verse 7,8 are referring to the same thing?

That is not the subject of the first sentence. The subject is compound, "our gathering" and "day of the Lord. That subject cannot happen until man of sin is revealed. Basic grammar laws. If you deny the basic grammar laws, I can't explain it to you at all.

thedee
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:25 PM
That is not the subject of the first sentence. The subject is compound, "our gathering" and "day of the Lord. That subject cannot happen until man of sin is revealed. Basic grammar laws. If you deny the basic grammar laws, I can't explain it to you at all.

So I guess that is a no. You cannot see the similiarities in this:
Verse 3: "a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed"
Verses 7,8 "he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed"

falling away = he be taken out of the way
man of sin be revealed = then shall that wicked be revealed

simple grammer isn't it? The day of the Lord cannot happen until the (falling away or he be taken out of the way) rapture happens first. When this occurs THEN the man of sin/that wickend will be revealed.

So simple.

Raybob
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:43 PM
So I guess that is a no. You cannot see the similiarities in this:
Verse 3: "a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed"
Verses 7,8 "he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed"

falling away = he be taken out of the way
man of sin be revealed = then shall that wicked be revealed

simple grammer isn't it? The day of the Lord cannot happen until the (falling away or he be taken out of the way) rapture happens first. When this occurs THEN the man of sin/that wickend will be revealed.

So simple.

How can you possibly equate apostacy with a rapture??? You recognize part of the compound subject but not the second part of the subject "our gathering unto Him".

I give up. This has absolutely nothing to do with the OP anyway.

Diggindeeper
Jun 4th 2010, 12:07 AM
So the "Gathering" is the rapture, and the "falling away" is the rapture?

Basically, this scripture says that the Rapture (gathering) cannot take place until the Rapture (falling away) takes place first....

No wonder there's so much confusion in this interpretation.

Kingdom Studies, you are right on target! Just like Raybob has been trying to help thedee to see. It is clear as can be. But there are just many who simply refuse to see it, no matter how clear, precise and plain the Word is! They still must twist it and say it means something else.

This never ceases to amaze me! People can be so indoctrinated they cannot see what is plainly in front of them.

Thedee, are you deliberately ignoring "or gathering together unto him"? Its THAT DAY....the day we are gathered to him...that will NOT come until 2 things happen.
#1 - the apostasy, which means 'falling away' from the truth!
#2- the man of sin is revealed.

THE RAPTURE will not happen, so says the Word of God, until...UNTIL...those 2 things happen first!

thedee
Jun 4th 2010, 01:14 AM
How can you possibly equate apostacy with a rapture???

Like I said in a previous post is that for a full grown apostasy to occur the church will be removed.... henced matching up with what 2 Thes 2:7,8 says.

Servant89
Jun 4th 2010, 01:22 AM
Like I said in a previous post is that for a full grown apostasy to occur the church will be removed.... henced matching up with what 2 Thes 2:7,8 says.

Like all other conclusions from the Pre-trib camp, based on human reasonings, not backed up by Scripture. It is written:

Isa 8:20 To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them.

Shalom

thedee
Jun 4th 2010, 01:26 AM
Thedee, are you deliberately ignoring "or gathering together unto him"? Its THAT DAY....the day we are gathered to him...that will NOT come until 2 things happen.
#1 - the apostasy, which means 'falling away' from the truth!
#2- the man of sin is revealed.

THE RAPTURE will not happen, so says the Word of God, until...UNTIL...those 2 things happen first!

I will go through this again being it seems you havn't read what I said in prior post. I will comment on what I have in black

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,"
This is the rapture

"not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come."

The day of the Lord/Christ begins at the rapture hence includes the Great Tribulation/Second Coming. Here is a prior comment of mind on that day

The day of the Lord is not a literal 24 hour day is clear from reading only a few of the references to it. Far too much happens to occur in one day. Frequently "the day of the Lord" is referred to as a day of woe, evil, vengeance from God, of indescribable descrutions: "the day of his wrath" (Psalm 110:5); "a destruction from the Almightly" (Joel 1:15); "great and very terrible, who can abide it?" (Joel 2:11); "woe...darkness and not light" (Amos 5:18); "the day of the Lord's anger" (Zephaniah 2:2,3); "that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble... saith the Lord of hosts" (Malachi 4:1) Such descriptions leave no doubt that the day of the Lord includes the Great Tribulation period.


"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,"

for that Day = the day of the Lord see comment above

Hence what he is saying in this verse is that the day of the Lord cannot not come until the falling away(which I believe refers to rapture) comes first.

Now in this same verse lets focus on "and the man of sin is revealed". If you read verse 8 it says "And then the lawless one will be revealed".
So when you read verses 7 and 8 you can easily see the parallels:

Verse 3: "the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed"
Verses 7,8 "He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed"

Notice verse 8 says "AND THEN".

So I will ask you. Do you not see the same things in verse 3 as you do in verse 7 and 8?

thedee
Jun 4th 2010, 01:29 AM
Like all other conclusions from the Pre-trib camp, based on human reasonings, not backed up by Scripture. It is written:

Isa 8:20 To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them.

Shalom

Read post #127.... Do you also not see the parallels in 2 Thes 2:3 and 2 Thes 2:7,8?

Diggindeeper
Jun 4th 2010, 01:38 AM
I will go through this again being it seems you havn't read what I said in prior post. I will comment on what I have in black

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,"
This is the rapture

"not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come."

The day of the Lord/Christ begins at the rapture hence includes the Great Tribulation/Second Coming. Here is a prior comment of mind on that day

The day of the Lord is not a literal 24 hour day is clear from reading only a few of the references to it. Far too much happens to occur in one day. Frequently "the day of the Lord" is referred to as a day of woe, evil, vengeance from God, of indescribable descrutions: "the day of his wrath" (Psalm 110:5); "a destruction from the Almightly" (Joel 1:15); "great and very terrible, who can abide it?" (Joel 2:11); "woe...darkness and not light" (Amos 5:18); "the day of the Lord's anger" (Zephaniah 2:2,3); "that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble... saith the Lord of hosts" (Malachi 4:1) Such descriptions leave no doubt that the day of the Lord includes the Great Tribulation period.


"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,"

for that Day = the day of the Lord see comment above

Hence what he is saying in this verse is that the day of the Lord cannot not come until the falling away(which I believe refers to rapture) comes first.

Now in this same verse lets focus on "and the man of sin is revealed". If you read verse 8 it says "And then the lawless one will be revealed".
So when you read verses 7 and 8 you can easily see the parallels:

Verse 3: "the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed"
Verses 7,8 "He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed"

Notice verse 8 says "AND THEN".

So I will ask you. Do you not see the same things in verse 3 as you do in verse 7 and 8?

NO. I absolutely do not see as your opinion states it...

The falling away = the rapture
No way!

Raybob
Jun 4th 2010, 01:42 AM
...The day of the Lord/Christ begins at the rapture hence includes the Great Tribulation/Second Coming...

You most certainly could NEVER find any such notion anywhere in scripture. You will ONLY find that notion in pre-trib commentaries from pre-trib commontators.

raybob

thedee
Jun 4th 2010, 01:44 AM
NO. I absolutely do not see as your opinion states it...

The falling away = the rapture
No way!

My question was do you not see this parallel or the similarities between these verses:

Verse 3: "the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed"
Verses 7,8 "He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed"

thedee
Jun 4th 2010, 01:45 AM
You most certainly could NEVER find any such notion anywhere in scripture. You will ONLY find that notion in pre-trib commentaries from pre-trib commontators.

raybob

Oh, You must of not read what I posted:

The day of the Lord is not a literal 24 hour day is clear from reading only a few of the references to it. Far too much happens to occur in one day. Frequently "the day of the Lord" is referred to as a day of woe, evil, vengeance from God, of indescribable descrutions: "the day of his wrath" (Psalm 110:5); "a destruction from the Almightly" (Joel 1:15); "great and very terrible, who can abide it?" (Joel 2:11); "woe...darkness and not light" (Amos 5:18); "the day of the Lord's anger" (Zephaniah 2:2,3); "that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble... saith the Lord of hosts" (Malachi 4:1) Such descriptions leave no doubt that the day of the Lord includes the Great Tribulation period.

Diggindeeper
Jun 4th 2010, 01:56 AM
Thedee, you might as well toss in the towel.

Anyone reading this thread, whether a member or a guest, can see where you are not making good sense according to scriptures. They can easily make up their own mind.

I am finished trying to reason with you. No scriptures seem to get through. Only your beliefs. Which have not proven to be sound according to scripture.

thedee
Jun 4th 2010, 02:02 AM
Thedee, you might as well toss in the towel.

Anyone reading this thread, whether a member or a guest, can see where you are not making good sense according to scriptures. They can easily make up their own mind.

I am finished trying to reason with you. No scriptures seem to get through. Only your beliefs. Which have not proven to be sound according to scripture.

I only wanted an answer to post #131. If you don't see a parallel or similarity then we are speaking a different language. If you do see the similarities then that is a STRONG case for a pre-trib rapture to happen being the Church would have to be removed in order for the man of sin to be revealed.

All the best.

Raybob
Jun 4th 2010, 02:26 AM
Oh, You must of not read what I posted:

The day of the Lord is not a literal 24 hour day is clear from reading only a few of the references to it. Far too much happens to occur in one day. Frequently "the day of the Lord" is referred to as a day of woe, evil, vengeance from God, of indescribable descrutions: "the day of his wrath" (Psalm 110:5); "a destruction from the Almightly" (Joel 1:15); "great and very terrible, who can abide it?" (Joel 2:11); "woe...darkness and not light" (Amos 5:18); "the day of the Lord's anger" (Zephaniah 2:2,3); "that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble... saith the Lord of hosts" (Malachi 4:1) Such descriptions leave no doubt that the day of the Lord includes the Great Tribulation period.

Not one of those scriptures even implies what you stated as "The day of the Lord/Christ begins at the rapture hence includes the Great Tribulation/Second Coming"

NOT ONE!

thedee
Jun 4th 2010, 02:29 AM
Not one of those scriptures even implies what you stated as "The day of the Lord/Christ begins at the rapture hence includes the Great Tribulation/Second Coming"

NOT ONE!

Did I say any of those references where? No. The point I was making is that "the day of the Lord" it not one literal day.

Raybob
Jun 4th 2010, 02:40 AM
Did I say any of those references where? No. The point I was making is that "the day of the Lord" it not one literal day.

According to Jesus, it all comes down in "one hour" of that one day, if you will receive it.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5:28-29)

The point I made and you cannot possibly refute is, "You most certainly could NEVER find any such notion anywhere in scripture. You will ONLY find that notion in pre-trib commentaries from pre-trib commontators." in reply to your statement, "..The day of the Lord/Christ begins at the rapture hence includes the Great Tribulation/Second Coming..."

thedee
Jun 4th 2010, 02:52 AM
According to Jesus, it all comes down in "one hour" of that one day, if you will receive it.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5:28-29)

The point I made and you cannot possibly refute is, "You most certainly could NEVER find any such notion anywhere in scripture. You will ONLY find that notion in pre-trib commentaries from pre-trib commontators." in reply to your statement, "..The day of the Lord/Christ begins at the rapture hence includes the Great Tribulation/Second Coming..."

But doesn't the book of Revelation state "but the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished" Rev 20:5 ?

Diggindeeper
Jun 4th 2010, 03:07 AM
There is no 1,000 years in this: (The scripture in red.)

Quote Originally Posted by Raybob
According to Jesus, it all comes down in "one hour" of that one day, if you will receive it.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5:28-29)

Raybob
Jun 4th 2010, 03:08 AM
But doesn't the book of Revelation state "but the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished" Rev 20:5 ?

Because of that, and the fact that the bible never contradicts itself, the passage of the "first resurrection" is obviously not about any physical resurrection but about THE FIRST RESURRECTION instead. This is the time when a dead soul becomes alive in Christ when they give their lives to Him. That is the event that gives a soul power over the second death. Certainly no event in the physical world will give anyone power over the second death, only coming alive in Christ can do that.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him...
(Rev 20:6)


Raybob

Diggindeeper
Jun 4th 2010, 03:11 AM
The dead in Christ SHALL rise first....

Cannot get around that.

Not some SHALL RISE now. Some later, after they are martyred. The dead in Christ rise first...no gathering together to meet him in the air...till 'the dead in Christ RISE. First. FIRST.

thedee
Jun 4th 2010, 03:49 AM
Diggindeeper - can you please answer the question in post #131?

kay-gee
Jun 4th 2010, 12:04 PM
My question was do you not see this parallel or the similarities between these verses:

Verse 3: "the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed"
Verses 7,8 "He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed"

First of all...the falling away has been going on since the beginning. (2John 7) (Heb 10:25)

2nd of all....This person is supposed to be sitting in the temple of God. (2Thess 2:4) Since the temple of God is the church (1Peter 2:5) Then this person has to be revealed while the church is still here.

I took the liberty of answering your questions. Hope that helped.

all the best...

notuptome
Jun 4th 2010, 06:17 PM
First of all...the falling away has been going on since the beginning. (2John 7) (Heb 10:25) Yet Paul in 2 Tim 4 speaks of a time, future, when men will not endure sound doctrine and will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears.

2nd of all....This person is supposed to be sitting in the temple of God. (2Thess 2:4) Since the temple of God is the church (1Peter 2:5) Then this person has to be revealed while the church is still here.

I took the liberty of answering your questions. Hope that helped.

all the best...
The same temple from which Christ will rule and reign for a thousand years. A Davidic throne in a Davidic temple as promised to David.

This does not negate the current ruling of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. 1 Cor 6:19-20

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Jun 4th 2010, 06:29 PM
The dead in Christ SHALL rise first....

Cannot get around that.

Not some SHALL RISE now. Some later, after they are martyred. The dead in Christ rise first...no gathering together to meet him in the air...till 'the dead in Christ RISE. First. FIRST.
Some have already resurrected. Christ the first born and the graves that were opened and the saints that slept came out and appeared to many. Mat 27:52-53 Some evidently have already risen now so some will rise later in the rapture some after the tribulation before the thousand year reign. Rev 20:6

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Jun 4th 2010, 06:32 PM
Because of that, and the fact that the bible never contradicts itself, the passage of the "first resurrection" is obviously not about any physical resurrection but about THE FIRST RESURRECTION instead. This is the time when a dead soul becomes alive in Christ when they give their lives to Him. That is the event that gives a soul power over the second death. Certainly no event in the physical world will give anyone power over the second death, only coming alive in Christ can do that.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him...
(Rev 20:6)


Raybob
Did Christ resurrect bodily? What of those in Mat 27:52-53?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Servant89
Jun 5th 2010, 04:42 PM
2Th 1:1-10 states that we will find rest at the second coming with fire, not 7 years before.

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Notice the location of the 7th trumpet in Revelation and notice the location of the next plague, the vials of Revelation, notice the verse location.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded;

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

And what happens between the 7th angel sounding the trumpet and the pouring of the seven vials of wrath? What's between two those two events? A rapture/harvest of believers followed immediately by the wrath of God. Just like it is described every where else in the Bible. Rapture in blue, followed by wrath in red.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Shalom