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Old Earther
Nov 6th 2008, 05:37 PM
The purpose of this thread is to challenge my fellow thinking Christians to read a passage in Genesis Chapter 2 and then arrange the events described therein in their proper chronological order.

Here is the passage:

Gen 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Gen 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gen 2:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Gen 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. Gen 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. Gen 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Gen 2:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.


I will now number the events, and it will remain for you folks to place them in their proper chronological order.

1.God places Adam in the garden.
2.God tells Adam that he can eat from every tree except for the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
3.God says that it is not good for Adam to be alone and declares that He will provide Adam with companionship.
4.God creates the animals.
5. God brings the animals to Adam and Adam names them.
6. God puts Adam to sleep.
7. God removes one of his ribs and makes Eve out it.
8. God brings Eve to Adam.

David Taylor
Nov 6th 2008, 06:12 PM
Chronological Order

4.God creates the animals.
1.God places Adam in the garden.
2.God tells Adam that he can eat from every tree except for the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
3.God says that it is not good for Adam to be alone and declares that He will provide Adam with companionship.
5. God brings the animals to Adam and Adam names them.
6. God puts Adam to sleep.
7. God removes one of his ribs and makes Eve out it.
8. God brings Eve to Adam.

The animals were created before Adam and Eve were created...otherwise the list is in chronological order.

1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. "

2:19 and 2:20 are a recaptiulation (not a re-creation) of the introduction of animals because of the focus of the animals not being a sufficient help-meat for Adam, and therefore the decision to create Eve.

Old Earther
Nov 6th 2008, 06:37 PM
Interesting response, David. Thank you.

Let's read the passage again in light of your proposed chronology.


Gen 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Gen 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gen 2:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Gen 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. Gen 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. Gen 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Gen 2:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

So according to you, in order to make tis read chronologically, we'd have to rearrange the passage so that it looks like this:

Gen 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. Gen 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Gen 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gen 2:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Gen 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. Gen 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Gen 2:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Thus, according to you, the text jumps back and forth to different times without notice.

I wonder then how you would arrange the events described in the following passage from chapter 3 which reads much like the passage above.

Gen 3:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Gen 3:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: Gen 3:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Gen 3:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Gen 3:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Gen 3:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Gen 3:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Gen 3:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.



I will number the events, and I ask you to arrange them chronologically.

1. The serpent asks Eve, "Yea, hath God said.."
2. Eve responds by saying that God gave them permission to eat of any tree save for the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
3. The serpent tells Eve that she will not die and that God fears that Eve would become as gods knwoing good and evil.
4. Eve eats from the tree.
5. Eve gives some fruit to Adam and he eats also.
6. Their eyes were opened and they were ashamed at their nakedness.
7. they cover their nudity with fig branches.
8. They hear God in the garden and they hide from Him.

RJ Mac
Nov 6th 2008, 07:09 PM
It is argued that Genesis 1 represents animals as existing before man (24-26), yet Genesis 2 has Adam created before the animals are formed (19). The text of Genesis 2:19 merely suggests that the animals were formed before being brought to man; it says nothing about the relative origins of man and beast in terms of chronology. The critic is reading something into the text that simply is not there. William Green pointed out that when noted scholar Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890), an advocate of the Documentary Hypothesis, first authored his famous commentary on Genesis, he employed this argument as a proof of a discrepancy between Genesis 1 and 2. However, in the last edition of his work, after his knowledge had matured, he repudiated this quibble and argued for the harmony of 2:19 with chapter 1 (Green, 1979, p. 26). Are there differences in the inspired narratives of Genesis 1 and 2? Of course there are. But differences do not necessarily imply contradictions, much less multiple authorship. The real question is this: Is there a purpose to these variations? Indeed there is. Furthermore, there are a number of factors that militate against the notion that Genesis 1 and 2 are independent and contradictory accounts of the creation.
First, careful analysis reveals that there is deliberate purpose in the individuality of these two sections of Scripture. In Genesis 1 there is a broad outline of the events of the creation week, which reaches its climax with the origin of mankind in the very image of God. In Genesis 2 there is the special emphasis upon man, the divine preparation of his home, the formation of a suitable mate, etc. Edward J. Young has a good statement of this matter:
There are different emphases in the two chapters...but the reason for these is obvious. Chapter 1 continues the narrative of creation until the climax, namely, man made in the image and likeness of God. To prepare the way for the account of the fall, chapter 2 gives certain added details about man’s original condition, which would have been incongruous and out of place in the grand, declarative march of chapter 1 (1960, p. 53).This type of procedure was not unknown in the literary methodology of antiquity. Gleason Archer observed that the “technique of recapitulation was widely practiced in ancient Semitic literature. The author would first introduce his account with a short statement summarizing the whole transaction, and then he would follow it up with a more detailed and circumstantial account when dealing with matters of special importance” (1964, p. 118). These respective sections have a different literary motif. Genesis 1 is chronological, revealing the sequential events of the creation week, whereas Genesis 2 is topical, with special concern for man and his environment. [This procedure is not unknown elsewhere in biblical literature. Matthew’s account of the ministry of Christ is more topical, while Mark’s record is more chronological.]


Second, there is clear evidence that Genesis 2 was never an independent creation account. There are simply too many crucial elements missing for that to have been the case. For instance, there is no mention in Genesis 2 of the creation of the Earth, and there is no reference to the oceans or fish. There is no allusion to the Sun, Moon, and stars, etc. Archer has pointed out that there is not an origins record in the entire literature collection of the ancient Near East that omits discussing the creation of the Sun, Moon, seas, etc. (1982, p. 69). Obviously, Genesis 2 is a sequel to chapter 1. The latter presupposes the former and is built upon it.
Even Howard Johnston, who was (at least in part) sympathetic to the Documentary Hypothesis, conceded:
The initial chapter [Genesis 1] gives a general account of the creation. The second chapter is generally declared by critics to be a second account of the creation, but, considered in the light of the general plan, that is not an accurate statement. Evidently the purpose of this chapter is to show that out of all the creation we have especially to do with man. Therefore only so much of the general account is repeated as is involved in a more detailed statement concerning the creation of man. There is a marked difference of style in the two accounts, but the record is consistent with the plan to narrow down the story to man (1902, p. 90).The following summary statement by Kenneth Kitchen is worthy of notice:
It is often claimed that Genesis 1 and 2 contain two different creation-narratives. In point of fact, however, the strictly complementary nature of the “two” accounts is plain enough: Genesis 1 mentions the creation of man as the last of a series, and without any details, whereas in Genesis 2 man is the centre of interest and more specific details are given about him and his setting. There is no incompatible duplication here at all. Failure to recognize the complementary nature of the subject-distinction between a skeleton outline of all creation on the one hand, and the concentration in detail on man and his immediate environment on the other, borders on obscurantism (1966, pp. 116-117, emp. in orig.).CONCLUSION
One final but forceful point should be made. In Matthew 19:4-5, the Lord Jesus combined quotations from Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. He declared: “He who made them from the beginning made them male and female [1:26], and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh [2:24].” If the liberal viewpoint is true, how very strange that Christ should have given not the slightest hint that the two accounts involved a multiple authorship and contradictory material! Obviously, the Son of God did not endorse the modern Documentary Hypothesis.


When the texts of Genesis 1 and 2 have been considered carefully, one thing is clear: an objective evaluation reveals no discrepancies, nor is a dual authorship to be inferred. Devout students of the Bible should not be disturbed by the fanciful, ever-changing theories of the liberal critics. It is wise to remember that the Word of God was not written for the benefit of “scholars,” but for the common person. The Scriptures assume that the average person is able to understand the message and to know that the source is divine.


Article By Wayne Jackson
apologeticspress.org/articles/2194

Old Earther
Nov 6th 2008, 07:26 PM
The text of Genesis 2:19 merely suggests that the animals were formed before being brought to man; it says nothing about the relative origins of man and beast in terms of chronology.


Actually, the text places the formation of the animals immediately after God declares that He will (note that it says he will create the animals, not that he already did) create animals for Adam's companionship.

What you need to do is put away your preconceptions and let the text speak for itself. Look at the passage with fresh eyes, as a child would:

Gen 2:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=kjv&x=8&y=10#) And the LORD God said, not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. [I]Gen 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=kjv&x=8&y=10#) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.

Athanasius
Nov 6th 2008, 07:45 PM
Old Earther, I'm getting tired of either being accused myself - or you accusing others- of being unable to put aside our presuppositions when viewing scripture. I've already demonstrated (in a previous thread on this same topic) that you read into the text and are just as "guilty" of anything you seem to believe we're doing wrong; lets, as you would say, be honest for a minute.

This is a situation more or less the equivolent of Genesis 1:1-2 in which the KJV translated verse 2 as beginning with the word 'and', a word that shouldn't be there as it indicates something 'happened' between verses 1 and 2. The same is true of Genesis 2:18-19. Let's compare translations, I think I'm right...

Genesis 2:18-19 (NASB)
18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

19Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

Genesis 2:18-19 (KJV)

18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

The NASB begins verse 19 with the word 'out', not the word 'and' as the KJV begins it. Likewise, the NKJV begins verse 19 with the word 'out' (omitting the 'and'). Interestingly the NIV begins verse 19 with the words 'Now the Lord...' No one else find this just a little significant if not often overlooked? You see here's the difference - verse 19 as translated in the NASB does not give a chronological time frame of the creation of man in relation to animals (or animals in relation to man). In verse 18 we see God declaring that it is not good that 'the man' should be alone and in verse 18 we are told that out of the ground God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air. However, without the inclusion of the word 'and', we are not given any indication (unless one first presuppositions Genesis 1) of when these animals were created - we are simply told how God created these animals. We are not told if it is before the creation of man or after.

That's the difficulty of the KJV translation in using the word 'and'. It indicates that the beasts of the field and the fowl of the air were created after God declaring it not good for the man to be alone. Thus the view has arisen that Genesis 2 is a separate (not complimentary) account of creation, in opposition to Genesis 1. That seems significant to me, thought I should point it out.

David Taylor
Nov 6th 2008, 07:51 PM
Interesting response, David. Thank you.

Let's read the passage again in light of your proposed chronology.


Gen 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Gen 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gen 2:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Gen 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. Gen 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. Gen 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Gen 2:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

So according to you, in order to make tis read chronologically, we'd have to rearrange the passage

Thus, according to you, the text jumps back and forth to different times without notice.

No jumping around or rearranging; just a parenthetical insert about the animal creation; in the middle of chapter 2, that restates their creation account as it occured in chapter 1.

It is chronoligical as written, with the understanding that the red-highlighted part is a parenthetical recapitulation.

Gen 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Gen 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gen 2:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gen 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. Gen 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.) Gen 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Gen 2:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&t=KJV&x=7&y=12#) And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

The reader who carefully reads and understand the chapter 1 narrative has no difficulty in seeing the red-highlighted section above is a recapitulation of prior events....with the main focus on Adam's search for a proper help-mate as he looked through all the animals; never finding one; then finally God determining to create Eve thereafter.

The entire red-highlighted area could be summarized down to say, "Adam search through all the animals of God created on Day 6, but didn't find any that were a suitable help-mate for himself"....that is the intent of that parenthetical recapitulation.





I wonder then how you would arrange the events described in the following passage from chapter 3 which reads much like the passage above.

Gen 3:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Gen 3:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: Gen 3:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Gen 3:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Gen 3:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Gen 3:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Gen 3:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Gen 3:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&c=3&t=KJV&x=11&y=12#) And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.



I will number the events, and I ask you to arrange them chronologically.

1. The serpent asks Eve, "Yea, hath God said.."
2. Eve responds by saying that God gave them permission to eat of any tree save for the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
3. The serpent tells Eve that she will not die and that God fears that Eve would become as gods knwoing good and evil.
4. Eve eats from the tree.
5. Eve gives some fruit to Adam and he eats also.
6. Their eyes were opened and they were ashamed at their nakedness.
7. they cover their nudity with fig branches.
8. They hear God in the garden and they hide from Him.


Sure...


1. The serpent asks Eve, "Yea, hath God said.."
2. Eve responds by saying that God gave them permission to eat of any tree save for the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
3. The serpent tells Eve that she will not die and that God fears that Eve would become as gods knwoing good and evil.
4. Eve eats from the tree.
5. Eve gives some fruit to Adam and he eats also.
6. Their eyes were opened and they were ashamed at their nakedness.
7. they cover their nudity with fig branches.
8. They hear God in the garden and they hide from Him.

If I didn't overlook anything, I believe your summary 1-8 here, is in correct chronological order.

I guess a clearer response, would be to put the first 3 chapters together in chronological order (as opposed to 2 differing accounts); in a similar way that folks sometimes will order the gospels in chronological order; since each tells slightly a different telling of the same chronology.

I'll do that in a followup post, not to make this one too long.

Old Earther
Nov 6th 2008, 07:58 PM
No jumping around or rearranging; just a parenthetical insert about the animal creation; in the middle of chapter 2, that restates their creation account as it occured in chapter 1.

It is chronoligical as written, with the understanding that the red-highlighted part is a parenthetical recapitulation.


Can you find one example of a parenthetical recapitulation that is inserted into the text in a similar way?

Aside the need to force the passage to match up with the order of creation as given in chapter 1, I do not see a reason to read the text as you do. A straight-forward reading gives no such indication. Rather, the text reads in the same way that chapter 3 reads: chronologically. You may argue that 'tis not what it seems, but it remains for you to justify this argument.

Old Earther
Nov 6th 2008, 08:04 PM
The NASB begins verse 19 with the word 'out', not the word 'and' as the KJV begins it. Likewise, the NKJV begins verse 19 with the word 'out' (omitting the 'and'). Interestingly the NIV begins verse 19 with the words 'Now the Lord...' No one else find this just a little significant if not often overlooked? You see here's the difference - verse 19 as translated in the NASB does not give a chronological time frame of the creation of man in relation to animals (or animals in relation to man). In verse 18 we see God declaring that it is not good that 'the man' should be alone and in verse 18 we are told that out of the ground God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air. However, without the inclusion of the word 'and', we are not given any indication (unless one first presuppositions Genesis 1) of when these animals were created - we are simply told how God created these animals. We are not told if it is before the creation of man or after.




Actually, even without the word "and", the sequence is obvious. God says it is not good for man to be alone, so he creates the animals and brings them to him. Were your reading correct, then why mention the creation of the animals at this point? Why wouldn't the text note that God saw that man was alone and simply brought them to Adam? Instead, the text inserts the creation of the animals at this point. You need to explain this.

David Taylor
Nov 6th 2008, 08:11 PM
The black text shows the outline framework in chronological order; as given from chapter 1.

The red highlights, shows where chapters 2 and 3 fit within the chronological order given from chapter 1.

Perfect Harmony in God's Word about the Creation Story!

2:19-20 (in blue) is the only recapitulation; pointing back the beginning of Day 6 when the animals were created before Adam and Eve.



BOOK:Genesis
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
2:19b and every fowl of the air
1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
2:19a And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27a So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
2:11The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole and of Havilah, where there is gold;
2:12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 2:13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
2:19c and brought them (animals) unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
1:27b male and female created he them.
2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

crawfish
Nov 6th 2008, 08:18 PM
David, you've got a little problem there. :)

David Taylor
Nov 6th 2008, 08:28 PM
Can you find one example of a parenthetical recapitulation that is inserted into the text in a similar way?

Aside the need to force the passage to match up with the order of creation as given in chapter 1, I do not see a reason to read the text as you do.
Sure it does.

If you start reading in chapter 1, you see on Day 6 the animals were created before Adam and Eve.

Then in chapter 2, you see the discussion turns to focus on why Eve was created out of Adam, it was because the animals who were created before her didn't fulfill the need for a helpmate that Adam needed.

It makes perfect sense to do a recapitulation about the creation of the animals; because Moses is doing a comparison of Adam's desire for a help-mate; and contrasting that the animals that were available to him weren't sufficient.

David Taylor
Nov 6th 2008, 08:32 PM
David, you've got a little problem there. :)

Was it the birds not being with the birds that troubled you? If so, I moved them up(if not, care to share?)

crawfish
Nov 6th 2008, 08:33 PM
Was it the birds not being with the birds that troubled you? If so, I moved them up(if not, care to share?)

Your timeline has Adam naming the animals before he was created.

Athanasius
Nov 6th 2008, 08:37 PM
Actually, even without the word "and", the sequence is obvious. God says it is not good for man to be alone, so he creates the animals and brings them to him. Were your reading correct, then why mention the creation of the animals at this point? Why wouldn't the text note that God saw that man was alone and simply brought them to Adam? Instead, the text inserts the creation of the animals at this point. You need to explain this.

The text presuppositions order from Genesis 1, hence its disregard of order. Without the word 'and' (the only refutation of my suggestion coming from a study of the actual Hebrew) there is no inherent chronological order present in a reading of Genesis 2:18-19.

David Taylor
Nov 6th 2008, 08:41 PM
Your timeline has Adam naming the animals before he was created.

OK, duhhh on my part....to focused on the animals, didn't give Adam his just diligence.

Thanks.

That keeps everything nice and neat with the already establish chronology of both chapter 1 and 2; with the only portion being parenthetical recapitulation; being the phrase about the creation of animals, and of birds from the beginning of 2:19.

divaD
Nov 6th 2008, 09:24 PM
What you need to do is put away your preconceptions and let the text speak for itself. Look at the passage with fresh eyes,
as a child would:




Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.



I agree, let the text speak for itself. so, what does the text tell us?



And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.


The first thing that we have to keep in mind here, we're talking about the creator of all, who obviously plans and thinks ahead. The LORD God doesn't want the man to be alone, so He's going to make a help meet for him(as in hasn't happened as of yet).


And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

This is why we need to go back to Genesis ch 1 to see when out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air. In ch 2 we learn how the LORD God made the animals. In Ch 1, we learn when the the LORD God made them. We learned that the the LORD God formed these animals on days 5 and 6, before man was created. Simple enough.


And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.


It simply appears that the LORD God had not yet fulfilled His promise in Genesis 2:18. Surely none of us actually believe that Adam was to find his help meet in the animal kingdom? Surely none of us believe that the LORD God made all these animals in order to find a suitable help meet for Adam, then realized that He wasn't able to, so then the LORD God reverts to plan B, the woman?


And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.


Here we see in black and white that the LORD God fulfilled Genesis 2:18, just like He said He would.

I'm not sure what your views are on Genesis ch 1 and 2, but I choose not to make difficulty out of them. I simply choose to let Scripture speak for itself, and to let Scripture answer Scripture. Since I know that the Lord God is a God that plans ahead, then I know that it was always the intention of the Lord God to fulfill Genesis 2:18 via Genesis 2:21. Verse 21 wasn't an afterthought nor an alternate plan.

crawfish
Nov 6th 2008, 09:41 PM
OK, duhhh on my part....to focused on the animals, didn't give Adam his just diligence.

Thanks.

That keeps everything nice and neat with the already establish chronology of both chapter 1 and 2; with the only portion being parenthetical recapitulation; being the phrase about the creation of animals, and of birds from the beginning of 2:19.

Your timeline is still a little troubled, because rather than taking Genesis 1 out of sequence you do so with Genesis 2. I think it's impossible to read both purely literally and make sense of them; the best answer (from a literalist standpoint) is to have some poetic license applied to Genesis 2.

Old Earther
Nov 7th 2008, 01:24 AM
The text presuppositions order from Genesis 1, hence its disregard of order.


This is your assertion, but you need to back it up. You will have to account for the fact that Genesis 1 represents a separate text from Genesis 2. The two chapters are not written by the same author.



Without the word 'and' (the only refutation of my suggestion coming from a study of the actual Hebrew) there is no inherent chronological order present in a reading of Genesis 2:18-19.


What is the Hebrew word for "and"? ;)

The chronological order is readily obvious to those who let the text speak for itself. For instance, consider that the passage depicts God saying that it is not good for man to be alone and then depicts God creating the animals out of the ground. Or, for isntance, consider that the text has Adam naming the animals after the text states that God created the animals.

faroutinmt
Nov 7th 2008, 02:20 AM
Old Earther,

I am interested in knowing what you believe to be the actual sequence of events in the creation of the heavens and the earth, whether from literal or allegorical interpretation. I've read through some of these posts and other threads, but didn't find an outline of your perspective.

If you have already shared it, can you direct me to the post? If not, would you mind briefly stating what you believe to be a correct interpretation of the Genesis account of creation?

Thanks!

Athanasius
Nov 7th 2008, 02:57 AM
This is your assertion, but you need to back it up. You will have to account for the fact that Genesis 1 represents a separate text from Genesis 2. The two chapters are not written by the same author.

For the sake of space I'm just going to quote the last verse of Genesis 1, though the entire chapter is presupposed in the first four verses of Genesis 2:

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1-4
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

As for who wrote Genesis 1 and 2... Just to be clear, I'm assuming you're referring to the Wellhausen documentary hypothesis?



What is the Hebrew word for "and"? ;)

Didn't realize there was a Hebrew word for "and" :rolleyes:



The chronological order is readily obvious to those who let the text speak for itself. For instance, consider that the passage depicts God saying that it is not good for man to be alone and then depicts God creating the animals out of the ground. Or, for isntance, consider that the text has Adam naming the animals after the text states that God created the animals.

Lets clear up that "and" before we start jumping back to this assertion.

Old Earther
Nov 7th 2008, 03:28 PM
Didn't realize there was a Hebrew word for "and" :rolleyes:
Bingo! But what then do we do with this comment of yours?

"Without the word 'and' (the only refutation of my suggestion coming from a study of the actual Hebrew) there is no inherent chronological order present in a reading of Genesis 2:18-19. "

;)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Earther http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1857707#post1857707)
The chronological order is readily obvious to those who let the text speak for itself. For instance, consider that the passage depicts God saying that it is not good for man to be alone and then depicts God creating the animals out of the ground. Or, for isntance, consider that the text has Adam naming the animals after the text states that God created the animals.

Lets clear up that "and" before we start jumping back to this assertion.


What I wrote above is not merely an assertion. Check the passage in Genesis 2 again and you will see that what I wrote above is true. Explain it.

Athanasius
Nov 7th 2008, 03:36 PM
Bingo! But what then do we do with this comment of yours?

"Without the word 'and' (the only refutation of my suggestion coming from a study of the actual Hebrew) there is no inherent chronological order present in a reading of Genesis 2:18-19. "

;)

A study of the Hebrew would determine whether or not the inclusion of 'and' in the English translation (and as all modern translation do not include this and, I'll assert it should not be there) should be there.



What I wrote above is not merely an assertion. Check the passage in Genesis 2 again and you will see that what I wrote above is true. Explain it.

As I said, without the 'and' there is no inherent chronology in verse 19 alone. There's also debate as to whether or not "formed" should be translated "had formed"; present to past tense. I'm reading the verses at face value... All I see is re-capitulation.

divaD
Nov 7th 2008, 03:53 PM
Here's something rather interesting imo, something that I've noticed.


Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made


Now anyone can argue all they want, and claim these verses don't mean what they mean, and that the Lord God once again starting creating, even tho the text clearly states that He rested from all the work in which He created and made. This alone is proof text that Genesis 2 takes place during the 6 days of creation and that it's not a seperate creation. But this is not the interesting thing that I've noticed.


Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,


This is the interesting verse that I noticed. Noticed where it's inserted.
Right before the forming of man. This verse proves that Genesis 2 occurs within the Genesis 1 outline. How can one know? First of all, do a phrase search on 'These are the generations of'. This is what comes up.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Genesis 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

Genesis 11:10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:

Genesis 11:27 Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot.

Genesis 25:12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:

Genesis 25:19 And these are the generations of Isaac, Abraham's son: Abraham begat Isaac:

Genesis 36:1 Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.

Genesis 36:9 And these are the generations of Esau the father of the Edomites in mount Seir:

Genesis 37:2 These are the generations of Jacob. Joseph, being seventeen years old, was feeding the flock with his brethren; and the lad was with the sons of Bilhah, and with the sons of Zilpah, his father's wives: and Joseph brought unto his father their evil report.

Ruth 4:18 Now these are the generations of Pharez: Pharez begat Hezron,



In each and every case here, the descendants are always listed following this phrase, never before. So, why should we interpret Genesis 2:4 any differently? Wouldn't the correct interpretation for this verse be descendants, as in Adam and Eve? Wouldn't they be the decendants of the heavens and of the earth, since the Lord God specifically made the heavens and the earth for them and their descendants, iow, for mankind? And since the Lord God Himself created and formed the man, then this would make the man a direct descent from God.


Genesis 2:4 These are the descendants of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,


If we interpret this verse in this manner, then we undoubtedly know that the forming of the man and woman takes place within the creation week, because we know that God rested from all the work in which He created and made on day 7. Nowhere in the text does it ever state that God finished resting from creating and making, and then resumed those type of works. It also seems obvious in this text that 'day' should be interpreted in a broader sense, as in during that period of time known as creation week, and shouldn't be interpreted as one literal day.

divaD
Nov 7th 2008, 06:05 PM
Were your reading correct, then why mention the creation of the animals at this point?
Why wouldn't the text note that God saw that man was alone and simply brought them to Adam? Instead, the text inserts the
creation of the animals at this point. You need to explain this.


I believe that you are simply misunderstanding the meaning. If what you're suggesting is correct, in which God didn't want the man to be alone, so He decides to make some animals for him, then how do you explain all of the animals that God created and made on days 5 and 6, which are clearly documented? According to your interpretation, then how could the man be truly all alone when there were already other animals present before God formed the man? Obviously when God said that He didn't want the man to be all alone, it was God's intention to make a woman for him. That's logical and exactly what the text states. To say that God didn't want the man to be alone, when there were already other animals present, so God then decides to make some more animals in order that the man wouldn't be alone, not only is that is illogical, it's also not what the text is stating.

The point is, when God said that He would make a help meet for the man, the plan was always going to be the woman. Even tho the text doesn't come right out and say it, some of us can deduce from what is written, that God more than likely brought these animals in pairs, the male and female of each kind.

And since we already know from Genesis ch 1 that God made the animals on days 5 and 6 before He makes man, then some of us can also deduce from Genesis 2:19-20 that this is when this occured.

Old Earther
Nov 12th 2008, 06:54 PM
A study of the Hebrew would determine whether or not the inclusion of 'and' in the English translation ... should be there.


Right. The thing is, xel naga, that chapter 3 reads just like chapter 2 with regards to how the story flows sequentially. You have ignored this fact.


(and as all modern translation do not include this and, I'll assert it should not be there)

All?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Earther http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1858244#post1858244)
What I wrote above is not merely an assertion. Check the passage in Genesis 2 again and you will see that what I wrote above is true. Explain it.

As I said, without the 'and' there is no inherent chronology in verse 19 alone. There's also debate as to whether or not "formed" should be translated "had formed"; present to past tense. I'm reading the verses at face value... All I see is re-capitulation.


Just look at where this event is placed relative to the other events described in the passage. The order of the text make perfect sense. Again, a child can see that the text details the creation of Adam, followed by an attestation to Adam being alone, followed by the formation of the animals, followed by Adam naming the animals, followed by the creation of Eve, etc.

divaD
Nov 13th 2008, 12:57 AM
I will now number the events, and it will remain for you folks to place them in their proper chronological order.

1.God places Adam in the garden.
2.God tells Adam that he can eat from every tree except for the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
3.God says that it is not good for Adam to be alone and declares that He will provide Adam with companionship.
4.God creates the animals.
5. God brings the animals to Adam and Adam names them.
6. God puts Adam to sleep.
7. God removes one of his ribs and makes Eve out it.
8. God brings Eve to Adam.


I just noticed something here, why didn't you include in the list, the forming of Adam? This would be a major event and would seem relevant to the chronology. If these were the choices:

1.God forms Adam.
2.God places Adam in the garden.
3.God tells Adam that he can eat from every tree except for the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
4.God says that it is not good for Adam to be alone and declares that He will provide Adam with companionship.
5.God creates the animals.
6. God brings the animals to Adam and Adam names them.
7. God puts Adam to sleep.
8. God removes one of his ribs and makes Eve out it.
9. God brings Eve to Adam.

Then I would put them in order as such, mainly because I would also use the outline of events in Genesis ch 1 as a reference, since Genesis ch 1 and ch 2 are the same events.

5.God creates the animals.
1.God forms Adam.
2.God places Adam in the garden.
3.God tells Adam that he can eat from every tree except for the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
4.God says that it is not good for Adam to be alone and declares that He will provide Adam with companionship.
6. God brings the animals to Adam and Adam names them.
7. God puts Adam to sleep.
8. God removes one of his ribs and makes Eve out it.
9. God brings Eve to Adam.