PDA

View Full Version : God does not care if we have our "best life now"...



immortality
Nov 6th 2008, 05:59 PM
Joel Osteen and Self-Esteem According to Paul Washer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXcPLnKmBRQ

Your Best Life: Now Or Later? - John MacArthur
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzP4rfQsuSY

Paladin54
Nov 6th 2008, 06:17 PM
We spend too much time livin for this life when we should be livin for the next.

VerticalReality
Nov 6th 2008, 06:27 PM
I honestly think folks are missing out on a lot when they make their entire goal heaven . . .

Our goal right now, and the message of the early church, was that we seek to know Him on an intimate level, and in the process of that experience what Jesus referred to in John 3:16, John 3:36 and John 17:3.

Everlasting life is not just a promise given for after we die. It is to be experienced right now. Everlasting life is God's will being done on earth as it is in heaven.

Now everlasting life does not mean that everything is peachy according to worldly circumstances. However, if we are walking in the Spirit we will not reap what is of the flesh . . . we will reap what is of the Spirit.

What is of the Spirit is everlasting life. What is of the flesh is death. We need to examine what fruit we are producing. Are we producing fruit of the Spirit that leads to life or are we producing fruit of the flesh which leads to death? Depending upon which fruit we are producing we will experience either everlasting life now or death. One or the other.

Dani H
Nov 6th 2008, 06:36 PM
Our life now is Jesus Christ. What is Heaven except more of Jesus everywhere? Why would anyone want to wait until then when we can live fully in Him now?

What is better than the Lord?

No 12 steps this and 7 keys that can, and should, ever take His place. He is sufficient, now, and tomorrow, and next year, and 1000 years from now.

Friend of I AM
Nov 6th 2008, 06:48 PM
God does not care if we have our "best life now"

Lol..sure he does. Just depends on how you define best. Didn't watch the videos, but I've seen Joel Osteen before. I don't really have that much of an issue with him, he does preach positive messsages which are very good and uplifting at times. Still, he does put a huge emphasis though on the God wants you to receive much material prosperity. This might be true to a limited extent, problem being, how does this message really reach poor people who are unable to get out of financial crisis due to circumstances beyond their control? Not sure if this message is the best one to give to the states particularly during this financial crisis we're going through -- maybe he should balance it out a bit -- add more about sharing and helping others receive prosperity. Just some thoughts.

immortality
Nov 6th 2008, 06:59 PM
Didn't watch the videos

please do so...

Friend of I AM
Nov 6th 2008, 07:04 PM
please do so...

I'll try but I used to watch him a lot a few years ago, so I'm not speaking as a guy who doesn't know of him and what he preaches. I'll admit - He is a little too much into the prosperity thing. He does give some really uplifting/good messages from time to time though. I'll admit he does need to balance the whole message out a lot. Who knows what the guy's motive is though. I'm not sure if he's all that different from a lot of churches nowadays, he just has a syndicated show which enables him to reach more people.

immortality
Nov 6th 2008, 07:14 PM
friend of i am, at least watch the first video.

let me know what you think...

immortality
Nov 6th 2008, 07:20 PM
"Whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." [mat 16:25]

Friend of I AM
Nov 6th 2008, 07:21 PM
friend of i am, at least watch the first video.

let me know what you think...

I watched just a bit of it, and it's as I thought. It seems as if the guy is just attacking Olsteen, his book, and his philosophy -- kind of professing the fact that he is preaching a superior doctrine to him. That's really not all that beneficial. The man can preach a more on the contrary to Olsteen without having to tear him down. I'll agree that Olsteen is a bit off on some of his stuff, doesn't mean that all of what he says is not beneficial to the believer. You have to take it in bits, just like we should take the sermon from the guy in the video -- and apply what you hear to diligent study and prayer. This is something we all should do when listening to a sermon from any pastor. All in all, both men need to take the focus off themselves, and put it more on God in their sermons.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

immortality
Nov 6th 2008, 07:29 PM
"For the time will come when people will not tolerate healthy doctrine, but with itching ears will surround themselves with teachers who cater to their people's own desires." [2 tim 4:3]

Whispering Grace
Nov 6th 2008, 07:30 PM
If you would permit me to put a post from my blog on here, it sums up my feelings about "living my best life now".

(It is long, yes...but so is eternity. :D)



I Am Living My Best Life Now


Anyone who thinks being a Christian is easy has absolutely no idea what it means to be a Christian. Either that, or they have a very shallow knowledge of Jesus Christ, but they do not really know Him or walk closely with Him. I believe this with all of my heart, and continue to be more convinced the more I walk with Jesus.

There came a point in my life as a Christian, when I began to really strip away the things of the world and seek God with my whole heart, that my world seemed to fall out from under me. The more I sought the Lord, the more people very close to me disdained me for it. The more I worshiped the Lord and lived for Him, the more every demon in hell seemed to come against me.

I didn't become a Christian and the next day wake up being like Jesus Christ in all ways. Becoming Christ-like has been a slow and sometimes agonizing process, as I have slowly died to all that I have known and been and relearned how to walk and talk and exist in the newness of life. There has been a purging taking place within me that has been neither simple nor easy, as every ounce of who I used to be has been stripped away and replaced with that which pleases the Lord. I have been through a Refiner's fire, been pounded by the Blacksmith's anvil, and molded ceaselessly by the Sculptor's persistent hands, despite oftentimes being as unyielding as the most stubborn and hardened slab of clay.

I have been through times of spiritual poverty, where the Lord seemed a million miles away, when I could not even open my mouth to pray, but would just sit there overwhelmed and overcome and feeling as empty as I had ever felt. And I have experienced times of such spiritual exaltation and ecstasy that I have had to ask the Lord to let up a bit because I felt if I came any more into His presence it would kill me. I have experienced deep, pentrating pain and I have experienced joy so great it could not be contained. I have carried burdens I never thought I would have to bear and I have known peace so unfathomable it defied explanation.

I guess it has been my experience living the day to day life of faith in Jesus Christ that causes me to bristle when I hear these "relevant" and "hip" preachers trying to tell me how to live my "best life now" or giving me the "10 steps to successful living". These last several years have been a lesson in DYING, not in living "my best life now". I have had to learn how to die to myself first to ever begin to live in Christ. To truly live the Christian life, I have had to die to all selfish ambitions and worldly lusts.

I can say in all honesty that I am happier and more fulfilled than I have ever been in my life. And throughout this journey, I have fallen deeply, passionately, and desperately in love with the Lord Jesus Christ. I am living my best life now, because it is not I who live but Jesus Christ who lives in me. I am living successfully because I know I would be without a hope in the world without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, and it is He who holds me up and directs each and every step I take. My life is wonderful because the One I place all of my hope in is faithful and true to His promises.

So all of you modern preachers, you can keep your petty little self help sermons and bubble gum pop psychology. I'll take Jesus Christ and His sufferings any day over an orderly, picture-perfect, problem-free life. I'd rather be crucified with Christ and die to all selfish ambition than have every want and desire satisfied. I would rather wrestle with God and be crushed by Him, if that is what it takes to make me a true and sanctified disciple of Jesus Christ, than follow 10 simple, man-contrived steps to self-satisfaction and instant gratification.

I can live my life without a balanced checkbook, a perfect marriage, and self esteem. I cannot live one second without Jesus Christ.

VerticalReality
Nov 6th 2008, 07:31 PM
"Whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." [mat 16:25]

Precisely. Whoever makes the things of this world their focus and refuses to "lose" the sinful desires of the flesh will not have everlasting life. They, in fact, will reap death. However, those who crucify the desires of this world and of the flesh will gain life and life everlasting.

Lyndie
Nov 6th 2008, 08:37 PM
People forget about a simple little word, no matter what they believe, its BALANCE. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but I refuse to be miserable under the guise of humility. I refuse to walk around with the attitude of 'oh, woe is me." I have the Spirit of the living God inside of me. How dare I be miserable when the Son of God gave His life for me. Misery loves company, and it's not a light to anyone. On the flip side however, I am smart enough to know life is not all roses and cherries.

I haven't read the book, but I have listened to Joel enough to know that he does say that we can live our best life, even in bad circumstances. Its about our attitude and what's in our heart. Its about making the best of what you have with what you've got. That is living your best life. God isn't obligated to give me more, but why would He if all I do is grumble and complain about it anyway? Like I said, preaching that misery is all there is and those with false humility is just as bad as people who preach about life being super all the time.

VerticalReality
Nov 6th 2008, 08:58 PM
People forget about a simple little word, no matter what they believe, its BALANCE. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but I refuse to be miserable under the guise of humility. I refuse to walk around with the attitude of 'oh, woe is me." I have the Spirit of the living God inside of me. How dare I be miserable when the Son of God gave His life for me. Misery loves company, and it's not a light to anyone. On the flip side however, I am smart enough to know life is not all roses and cherries.

I haven't read the book, but I have listened to Joel enough to know that he does say that we can live our best life, even in bad circumstances. Its about our attitude and what's in our heart. Its about making the best of what you have with what you've got. That is living your best life. God isn't obligated to give me more, but why would He if all I do is grumble and complain about it anyway? Like I said, preaching that misery is all there is and those with false humility is just as bad as people who preach about life being super all the time.

I agree with you, Lyndie. A lot of folks are under a false impression that to be a true Christian you must be beat up all the time or suffering from something. A lot of that is as you said . . . false humility. The Christian life is a victorious one.

Friend of I AM
Nov 6th 2008, 09:03 PM
I agree with you, Lyndie. A lot of folks are under a false impression that to be a true Christian you must be beat up all the time or suffering from something. A lot of that is as you said . . . false humility. The Christian life is a victorious one.

Either too much on prosperity or sufferring can come out as pride. Remember it's not entirely about what's said..it's about where the heart is.

theLogos
Nov 7th 2008, 01:51 AM
I honestly think folks are missing out on a lot when they make their entire goal heaven

Missing out?

"Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling , because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord ." 2 Corinthians 5:2-8

"Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things." Colossians 3:1&2

It seems Paul made his goal heaven and I don't think anyone would say he missed out on anything. Of course we make our entire goal heaven! This passage says that is why God has made us!

VerticalReality
Nov 7th 2008, 03:06 AM
Missing out?

"Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling , because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord ." 2 Corinthians 5:2-8

It seems Paul made his goal heaven and I don't think anyone would say he missed out on anything. Of course we make our entire goal heaven! This passage says that is why God has made us!

That passage says nothing about that being Paul's only goal. It is a goal . . . sure. But if that is your only goal then you are missing out on a great deal.

Here's another goal of Paul's . . .



Philippians 3:3-11
For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.


Paul's main goal was to know the Lord Jesus Christ intimately. Paul also stated that this was his prayer for us . . .



Ephesians 3:14-19
For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.


Paul's prayer for us was that we get to know the Lord Jesus Christ on an experiential and intimate level that surpasses just intellectual knowledge. This is the goal we are to strive for. In that comes everlasting life. Everlasting life is not just for when we die and go to heaven. Everlasting life is to be experienced right now . . .

What is this everlasting life?

Jesus told us that those who believe on Him would have everlasting life . . .



John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


When do we have this everlasting life?



John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


Whoever believes on the Son has everlasting life. This is a present reality. It is not just something we have to wait for when we get to heaven. We can experience this everlasting life now.

How are we to experience this eternal life?



John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.


The Word of God states that eternal life comes from knowing God and His Son Jesus Christ. We get to know Him now. As we begin to seek Him and abide in His love we are transformed from glory to glory into His image. In this we will also experience everlasting life now. We will reap of the Spirit and experience the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, faithfulness, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self-control. These are all a result of experiencing everlasting life right now today.

So, if someone is casting all that aside and their entire goal is just making it through this life so that they can get to heaven. Well, they are missing out on a ton of blessing that has been provided for right now.

This is actually one of the bigger hinderances to the spread of the gospel today. The early church preached this intimate relationship with God the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ that would give everlasting life as a present reality. Today's church only preaches that sinners need to turn from their sin or burn in hell. This "do this or else" style of preaching may actually work on a few, but it doesn't produce the same results that the apostles experienced. They preached that we can have an intimate Father/son sort of relationship with the Living God that produces every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus. Today's church preaches that since sinners are living in sin God is ticked off at them and they are going to burn for eternity in a place of torment unless they change their ways. While the latter message is true in and of itself, the former message is what folks need to hear a little more of.

markedward
Nov 7th 2008, 03:12 AM
immortality,

Not trying to be snide or anything but... how many threads have you started that didn't just link to a video or article made by someone else? Being that this is a web forum used for discussion... do you have anything you would like to say? Again, I'm not trying to rail against you; I would just like to see you put in your own words the next time you start a thread, rather than simply dropping in a link.

Lamplighter
Nov 7th 2008, 04:04 AM
It all depends on what part of the earth a Christian lives on.

Christians in the Sudan are starving, being tortured, killed, and dying of all kinds of diseases.

Christians in America have food, jobs, medicine, and freedom to worship without being killed or tortured.

Are American Christians favored by God because of their circumstances?

Are Sudanese Christians somehow less spiritual because of their circumstances? Do they lack faith? Are they less saved?

Believe it or not, God is not an American.

VerticalReality
Nov 7th 2008, 04:13 AM
It all depends on what part of the earth a Christian lives on.

Christians in the Sudan are starving, being tortured, killed, and dying of all kinds of diseases.

Christians in America have food, jobs, medicine, and freedom to worship without being killed or tortured.

Are American Christians favored by God because of their circumstances?

Are Sudanese Christians somehow less spiritual because of their circumstances? Do they lack faith? Are they less saved?

Believe it or not, God is not an American.

The Apostle Paul experienced everything you listed above that the Sudanese are experiencing, minus the diseases part . . . yet he was still getting to know the Lord intimately and experiencing everlasting life.

rrguy
Nov 7th 2008, 05:23 AM
There is a difference between humble & depressed!! God wants us to be Happy yet not afraid to suffer or sacrifice for others. Those who need material comforts for happiness & put them before all others will have issues. IMO it includes these Preachers who have million dollar houses while there are people going hungry. Would that money not be be better spent on a nice modest house & a house for the poor?

9Marksfan
Nov 7th 2008, 01:37 PM
If you would permit me to put a post from my blog on here, it sums up my feelings about "living my best life now".

(It is long, yes...but so is eternity. :D)

AWESOME post - well said!

9Marksfan
Nov 7th 2008, 01:40 PM
I agree with you, Lyndie. A lot of folks are under a false impression that to be a true Christian you must be beat up all the time or suffering from something. A lot of that is as you said . . . false humility. The Christian life is a victorious one.

So rather than being beat up, you think we should be upbeat, like Joel?

Do you see that in the NT?

9Marksfan
Nov 7th 2008, 01:43 PM
The Apostle Paul experienced everything you listed above that the Sudanese are experiencing, minus the diseases part . . .

Sure about that?

VerticalReality
Nov 7th 2008, 02:11 PM
So rather than being beat up, you think we should be upbeat, like Joel?

Do you see that in the NT?

Do I see what in the NT? Victorious Christians? Yes, I see victorious Christians all throughout the NT. I see victorious believers that are experiencing everlasting life regardless of worldly circumstances.

VerticalReality
Nov 7th 2008, 02:11 PM
Sure about that?

Quite sure . . .

BroRog
Nov 7th 2008, 02:52 PM
From my perspective, one of the most important things we can learn as Christians is to be realistic and face life in all honesty. If we are suffering, admit it. If we are happy -- be happy. If we need help, ask for it. If we sin, confess it. If we do good, acknowledge it too.

Some of us are going to be beat up. Others are going to be upbeat. But it isn't an either/or situation. Some of us can find joy, even in the midst of trial. And some of us can find Joy, even in the knowledge that our journey is not yet over.

Honesty is the key. If you aren't upbeat, don't attempt to put on an act. Just know that being sad, lonely, or depressed is not wrong, silly, or spiritually deficient in any way.

Why do we need permission to be ourselves? Peer pressure. The Pharisaical need to look good. The mistaken belief that feeling good is being good.

VerticalReality
Nov 7th 2008, 03:16 PM
Honesty is the key. If you aren't upbeat, don't attempt to put on an act. Just know that being sad, lonely, or depressed is not wrong, silly, or spiritually deficient in any way.

I think folks have to be careful with this, though. Is being depressed sinful or wrong? No, I don't believe it is. However, is God the cause of our depression? Again, no, I don't believe He is. There are times and seasons for everything. If a loved one dies obviously we are going to feel at least a little depressed. However, it's about truth and perspective. That feeling should not lead us on a downward spiral headed towards out of control. As someone said previously . . . the key is balance.


Why do we need permission to be ourselves?

Again, though, I think we have to be careful with this one as well. People can slip into all sorts of depression, anxiety along with numerous other things not of God and just use the excuse, "Well, that's just me." No, that isn't at all you if you are born again. I believe many today are ruled entirely too much by their circumstance. They are so controlled by the world around them that it totally sucks the victory right out of their walk.

BroRog
Nov 7th 2008, 04:10 PM
They are so controlled by the world around them that it totally sucks the victory right out of their walk.

I cringe when I hear people talk about having "victory" in their "walk". Many folks soon discover that Christianity doesn't work. The false hope of victory is soon met with moral, spiritual, and emotional challenges that don't go away, even after days or months of prayer. Living under such false hope usually leads to one of the following: 1) Buy the script and act the part, 2) live in constant discouragement and fear, 3) give up on the faith altogether.

VerticalReality
Nov 7th 2008, 04:21 PM
I cringe when I hear people talk about having "victory" in their "walk". Many folks soon discover that Christianity doesn't work. The false hope of victory is soon met with moral, spiritual, and emotional challenges that don't go away, even after days or months of prayer. Living under such false hope usually leads to one of the following: 1) Buy the script and act the part, 2) live in constant discouragement and fear, 3) give up on the faith altogether.

If you judge victory based upon worldly circumstance then you have a point. However, victory in the Christian walk is not determined by worldly circumstance. While Paul and Silas were in prison they were still victorious. They still praised the Lord and did not allow their worldly circumstance to determine their state of mind. It would have been easy for them to get down and discouraged in the worldly circumstances they were in. However, they chose instead to praise the Lord. They showed what faith does despite circumstance.

All one has to do is read Paul's letter to the church at Philippi and see what I'm talking about. Paul was rejoicing all throughout that letter despite the fact that according to worldly circumstance he had nothing to be joyful about. Those who walk in the Spirit will have this sort of joy regardless of what's going on around them. They will have this sort of peace regardless of their circumstance. That's why it is called the peace that surpasses understanding. Why does it surpass understanding? It does so because according to the carnal mind and the carnal world folks are supposed to be down and discouraged if the world around them dictates that this be so. However, we are in this world but not of it. As born again believers we should be able to experience every spiritual blessing that we have been given in Christ Jesus regardless of the world around us.

It's those who are controlled by the world who do not relate to this very clear message of the gospel.

tt1106
Nov 7th 2008, 04:52 PM
Jesus called his disciples to become Martyrs. I don't belive Jesus called the twelve to be good people and show other people how to be good people. He called the 12 to die for him. Come, follow me.
Can you drink from the same cup that I drink from?
I, for one, have a very long way to go.
Joel Osteen preaches anything but the truth. He is an apostate. He freequently edits bible verses to conform to his sermon message.
He even mixes translations, so it fits into what he wants to say.
Want proof. Watch his show with a bible in your hand. I guarentee it will happen at least once a month.
To live is Christ(torment, witnessing, sacrificing, Bringing people to the Father, despite the cost), to die is gain!

jesuslover1968
Nov 7th 2008, 05:02 PM
people who preach the best life now do so with human wisdom, not the wisdom of God.

VerticalReality
Nov 7th 2008, 05:52 PM
people who preach the best life now do so with human wisdom, not the wisdom of God.

Depends on how it is preached, IMO. I look at my life and service to the Lord and I believe that my life is better than that of some Hollywood type who has all the material wealth they could ask for but are mentally and spiritually in poverty.

There is nothing wrong with a Christian believing that they are living a great life. We should believe that. We have the opportunity to know and commune with the Living God. He is our Father. That is the best life you could possibly have.

9Marksfan
Nov 7th 2008, 05:53 PM
Jesus called his disciples to become Martyrs. I don't belive Jesus called the twelve to be good people and show other people how to be good people. He called the 12 to die for him. Come, follow me.
Can you drink from the same cup that I drink from?
I, for one, have a very long way to go.
Joel Osteen preaches anything but the truth. He is an apostate. He freequently edits bible verses to conform to his sermon message.
He even mixes translations, so it fits into what he wants to say.
Want proof. Watch his show with a bible in your hand. I guarentee it will happen at least once a month.
To live is Christ(torment, witnessing, sacrificing, Bringing people to the Father, despite the cost), to die is gain!

Excellent post - well said!

9Marksfan
Nov 7th 2008, 05:54 PM
Depends on how it is preached, IMO. I look at my life and service to the Lord and I believe that my life is better than that of some Hollywood type who has all the material wealth they could as for but are mentally and spiritually in poverty.

There is nothing wrong with a Christian believing they they are living a great life. We should believe that. We have the opportunity to know and commune with the Living God. He is our Father. That is the best life you could possibly have.

But won't Glory be INFINITELY better?

Lyndie
Nov 7th 2008, 05:59 PM
1Jn:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Pretty self explanatory. I lived for many yrs as a child with alcoholic parents who fought all the time. My life as a child was almost complete misery. I REFUSE to live like that anymore. Why? Because the creator of the universe loves me, he promised to restore what the yrs of the locust have eaten.

Mk 10:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

God has given me promises. I intend to recieve them, now and in the life to come. If you choose to stay miserable, that's up to you. I came to God because I was miserable, not to become miserable.

VerticalReality
Nov 7th 2008, 05:59 PM
But won't Glory be INFINITELY better?

Well, sure . . .

I personally get excited knowing that sin and death will be no more. That's an awesome truth and hope to have. However, my point in this thread is that making that our only goal means that we are going to be giving up a lot that the Lord has made available to His children right now. There's nothing wrong at all with a Christian believing God for all the spiritual blessing that He has already provided us. He has provided for us victory now . . . not just in heaven.



Galatians 1:3-5
Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.



A lot of churches preach that Jesus' sacrifice on that cross was just so that our sins could be forgiven and we could make it to heaven. To me that diminishes what He did. He did so much more than that.

jesuslover1968
Nov 7th 2008, 06:22 PM
Depends on how it is preached, IMO. I look at my life and service to the Lord and I believe that my life is better than that of some Hollywood type who has all the material wealth they could ask for but are mentally and spiritually in poverty.

There is nothing wrong with a Christian believing that they are living a great life. We should believe that. We have the opportunity to know and commune with the Living God. He is our Father. That is the best life you could possibly have.


Oh, I agree with you on this, but I think the OP has a different meaning than what you are seeing. When I see the words, " best life now..." my mind ALWAYS goes to Joel Osteen now. He preaches some things that have absolutely NOTHING to do with KNOWING GOD NOW, but being prosperous now, material wealth, etc.

immortality
Nov 7th 2008, 06:40 PM
immortality,

Not trying to be snide or anything but... how many threads have you started that didn't just link to a video or article made by someone else? Being that this is a web forum used for discussion... do you have anything you would like to say? Again, I'm not trying to rail against you; I would just like to see you put in your own words the next time you start a thread, rather than simply dropping in a link.

sometimes i find it foolish to attempt to be a teacher when there are individuals who can do an infinitely better job.

did you watch the videos, mark? what are your thoughts?

VerticalReality
Nov 7th 2008, 06:42 PM
Oh, I agree with you on this, but I think the OP has a different meaning than what you are seeing. When I see the words, " best life now..." my mind ALWAYS goes to Joel Osteen now. He preaches some things that have absolutely NOTHING to do with KNOWING GOD NOW, but being prosperous now, material wealth, etc.

I think the preaching of God wants everyone to be rich is in error. However, I also think many make a bigger deal out of that than what is needed. Some folks go way overboard with it, but in general I'm not going to get too bent out of shape about someone preaching that God wants us to be financially prosperous. Andrew Wommack, for example, preaches that God wants us to be financially prosperous. He doesn't preach that we should all be rich, but he does believe God will prosper us financially. I do not necessarily agree with him on all of this, but there are other things that he preaches that I think are spot on. In fact, out of all the preachers on television he is one that I see eye to eye with most (That's also considering, though, that I don't see eye to eye with many on television). Again, I'm not saying I agree with him on everything, but I truly believe that he loves the Lord and preaches what he truly believes the Word says. Those talking about the mansions, Bentleys, Armani suits with the Rolex and so on are just deceived. Point is, many folks preach things that don't always line up perfectly with the Word of God. In fact, I feel safe in saying that every preacher you have ever heard preach didn't preach everything with perfect understanding of the Scriptures. It's those who twist things deliberately who have a lot to worry about.

Emanate
Nov 7th 2008, 07:07 PM
He freequently edits bible verses to conform to his sermon message.
He even mixes translations, so it fits into what he wants to say.
Want proof. Watch his show with a bible in your hand. I guarentee it will happen at least once a month.


Once a month? Then he certainly has more credibility than the vast majority of TV preachers. Try Jack Van Impe some time. I guarentee it will happen a few times each show.

tt1106
Nov 7th 2008, 08:05 PM
Once a month? Then he certainly has more credibility than the vast majority of TV preachers. Try Jack Van Impe some time. I guarentee it will happen a few times each show.
I was being generous. :)

Lyndie
Nov 7th 2008, 10:43 PM
I think the preaching of God wants everyone to be rich is in error. However, I also think many make a bigger deal out of that than what is needed. Some folks go way overboard with it, but in general I'm not going to get too bent out of shape about someone preaching that God wants us to be financially prosperous. Andrew Wommack, for example, preaches that God wants us to be financially prosperous. He doesn't preach that we should all be rich, but he does believe God will prosper us financially. I do not necessarily agree with him on all of this, but there are other things that he preaches that I think are spot on. In fact, out of all the preachers on television he is one that I see eye to eye with most (That's also considering, though, that I don't see eye to eye with many on television). Again, I'm not saying I agree with him on everything, but I truly believe that he loves the Lord and preaches what he truly believes the Word says. Those talking about the mansions, Bentleys, Armani suits with the Rolex and so on are just deceived. Point is, many folks preach things that don't always line up perfectly with the Word of God. In fact, I feel safe in saying that every preacher you have ever heard preach didn't preach everything with perfect understanding of the Scriptures. It's those who twist things deliberately who have a lot to worry about.

Good point VR. I think it also depends on a person's definition of prosperity. I don't automatically think "money" when I hear that word. For those that do, well, that's thier issue. I believe God wants me to prosper in my service to Him, in my relationships, in my job (which doesn't mean getting rich, but being favored if I do a good job) and so on. Prosperity to me is being able to pay my bills and have enough left over to be a blessing to others, and enjoy the fruits of my labor.

Dani H
Nov 8th 2008, 02:59 AM
sometimes i find it foolish to attempt to be a teacher when there are individuals who can do an infinitely better job.

did you watch the videos, mark? what are your thoughts?

Well, cutie, how do you know that those people are actually right?

I'd rather see something original from you than pre-chewed messages from somebody else that I can just as well look up myself any time. :)

thepenitent
Nov 8th 2008, 06:42 PM
Once a month? Then he certainly has more credibility than the vast majority of TV preachers. Try Jack Van Impe some time. I guarentee it will happen a few times each show.

You mean those rare instances when his wife lets him talk?

doug3
Nov 9th 2008, 02:21 AM
1Jn:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Pretty self explanatory. I lived for many yrs as a child with alcoholic parents who fought all the time. My life as a child was almost complete misery. I REFUSE to live like that anymore. Why? Because the creator of the universe loves me, he promised to restore what the yrs of the locust have eaten.

Mk 10:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

God has given me promises. I intend to recieve them, now and in the life to come. If you choose to stay miserable, that's up to you. I came to God because I was miserable, not to become miserable.

Amen! That balance referred to earlier.

John 17:3 (KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

immortality
Nov 9th 2008, 03:50 AM
Lyndie, your signature says: "don't be so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good."

in the first video, at 4:21, paul washer says something about that statement. he says it is "the biggest lie that has ever cracked out of hell, because it's been the most heavenly minded men on the face of this earth who did the most - to begin with: the captain of our salvation, jesus chrisit, who was always beholding the father, who was always in communion with him, always thinking heavenly thoughts."

perhaps people want to think that being too heavenly minded is not a good thing, because if they became convinced it was beneficial, then that would mean they would have to be heavenly minded. that is, they use it as an excuse.

the same applies with this preposterous "balance" talk. if you are a true and genuine christian, then god will be absolutely everything in your life - not just a cherry on top of your "balanced" ice cream sundae. like jesus, you will live above the world. heaven will be your home, your goal, your longing.

the following text is jesus instructing christians to store up treasures in heaven, and not on earth - completely contradictory to "your best life now" teachings:

"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." [luke 12:34]

the problem with christians, particularly in america, is that their treasures are on this planet. their aspirations, desires and hearts are not in the heavenly realms, but rather on the earth and its material possessions.

jesuslover1968
Nov 9th 2008, 04:10 PM
I think the preaching of God wants everyone to be rich is in error. However, I also think many make a bigger deal out of that than what is needed. Some folks go way overboard with it, but in general I'm not going to get too bent out of shape about someone preaching that God wants us to be financially prosperous. Andrew Wommack, for example, preaches that God wants us to be financially prosperous. He doesn't preach that we should all be rich, but he does believe God will prosper us financially. I do not necessarily agree with him on all of this, but there are other things that he preaches that I think are spot on. In fact, out of all the preachers on television he is one that I see eye to eye with most (That's also considering, though, that I don't see eye to eye with many on television). Again, I'm not saying I agree with him on everything, but I truly believe that he loves the Lord and preaches what he truly believes the Word says. Those talking about the mansions, Bentleys, Armani suits with the Rolex and so on are just deceived. Point is, many folks preach things that don't always line up perfectly with the Word of God. In fact, I feel safe in saying that every preacher you have ever heard preach didn't preach everything with perfect understanding of the Scriptures. It's those who twist things deliberately who have a lot to worry about.


Well, I have to disagree.
Matthew 19:20-30
20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Jesus makes it clear that financial prosperity is NOT a positive thing when it comes to the things of God. If it weren't FOR GOD, rich men couldn't even get to heaven. It takes GOD to change them, just as it does us. When the Bible teaches us about prosperity and riches, it is not talking about having money...
Matthew 6:22-25
22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 25Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

It is talking about having God. :pp God Bless.

As for your last statement, I would agree. I would also say that the biggest part of preachers that you see on tv are in that category. It's sad but true.

BroRog
Nov 9th 2008, 07:54 PM
It isn't bad when God blesses a man or a woman, giving them everything they need. It isn't bad to be rich and have luxury. What God hates is when we think that our blessings or riches came from us.

I am reminded of the passage in Deuteronomy in which God says,

"Beware that you do not forget the LORD your God by not keeping His commandments and His ordinances and His statutes which I am commanding you today; otherwise, when you have eaten and are satisfied, and have built good houses and lived in them, and when your herds and your flocks multiply, and your silver and gold multiply, and all that you have multiplies, then your heart will become proud and you will forget the LORD your God who brought you out from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.


"He led you through the great and terrible wilderness, with its fiery serpents and scorpions and thirsty ground where there was no water; He brought water for you out of the rock of flint. In the wilderness He fed you manna which your fathers did not know, that He might humble you and that He might test you, to do good for you in the end. Otherwise, you may say in your heart, 'My power and the strength of my hand made me this wealth.' But you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who is giving you power to make wealth, that He may confirm His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day.

Lyndie
Nov 9th 2008, 09:25 PM
Lyndie, your signature says: "don't be so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good."

in the first video, at 4:21, paul washer says something about that statement. he says it is "the biggest lie that has ever cracked out of hell, because it's been the most heavenly minded men on the face of this earth who did the most - to begin with: the captain of our salvation, jesus chrisit, who was always beholding the father, who was always in communion with him, always thinking heavenly thoughts."

perhaps people want to think that being too heavenly minded is not a good thing, because if they became convinced it was beneficial, then that would mean they would have to be heavenly minded. that is, they use it as an excuse.

the same applies with this preposterous "balance" talk. if you are a true and genuine christian, then god will be absolutely everything in your life - not just a cherry on top of your "balanced" ice cream sundae. like jesus, you will live above the world. heaven will be your home, your goal, your longing.

the following text is jesus instructing christians to store up treasures in heaven, and not on earth - completely contradictory to "your best life now" teachings:

"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." [luke 12:34]

the problem with christians, particularly in america, is that their treasures are on this planet. their aspirations, desires and hearts are not in the heavenly realms, but rather on the earth and its material possessions.

Well, I think that also depends on a person's definition. What I mean by my sig is that people can become so caught up with studying, praying, looking under every rock for a demon, and sit and watch the news all day for signs of Jesus' return, instead of 'going into all the world' and preaching the gospel.

Jesuslover, I believe God doesn't condemn us for having money. Yes, it will be hard for some to give it up if they have to. It all depends on where your heart is. I know many people who aren't rich who are greedy.

VerticalReality
Nov 9th 2008, 09:40 PM
Jesus makes it clear that financial prosperity is NOT a positive thing when it comes to the things of God. If it weren't FOR GOD, rich men couldn't even get to heaven. It takes GOD to change them, just as it does us. When the Bible teaches us about prosperity and riches, it is not talking about having money...


The Word of God doesn't say that there is anything wrong with money. It's the love of money that is the problem. The same can be said about prosperity. Prosperity is not the problem. It is the love of prosperity that is the problem. The young man loved his possession more than he loved Jesus. The message was not that all people who have possessions need to run out and sell them in order to follow the Lord Jesus Christ. The message is that there should be nothing in your life that will hinder you from doing the Lord's will. The young man's reaction to what Jesus ordered him to do was clear evidence that his possessions hindered him from doing what the Lord would have him do. However, if it were the possessions themselves then why would the Lord ever provide us with any of them?

Remember . . .

The Lord told the disciples that if they seek ye first the kingdom of God then all those possessions they were in need of would be provided for them. Paul said that God would supply all his need according to His riches in glory through Christ Jesus.

I once heard a preacher say that God doesn't mind if you have stuff as long as stuff doesn't have you.

jesuslover1968
Nov 10th 2008, 03:30 PM
The Word of God doesn't say that there is anything wrong with money. It's the love of money that is the problem. The same can be said about prosperity. Prosperity is not the problem. It is the love of prosperity that is the problem. The young man loved his possession more than he loved Jesus. The message was not that all people who have possessions need to run out and sell them in order to follow the Lord Jesus Christ. The message is that there should be nothing in your life that will hinder you from doing the Lord's will. The young man's reaction to what Jesus ordered him to do was clear evidence that his possessions hindered him from doing what the Lord would have him do. However, if it were the possessions themselves then why would the Lord ever provide us with any of them?

Remember . . .

The Lord told the disciples that if they seek ye first the kingdom of God then all those possessions they were in need of would be provided for them. Paul said that God would supply all his need according to His riches in glory through Christ Jesus.

I once heard a preacher say that God doesn't mind if you have stuff as long as stuff doesn't have you.


Well, that was exactly what I was saying...:lol:...but honestly, how often does that really happen? God Bless.

John146
Nov 10th 2008, 05:57 PM
The Word of God doesn't say that there is anything wrong with money. It's the love of money that is the problem. The same can be said about prosperity. Prosperity is not the problem. It is the love of prosperity that is the problem. The young man loved his possession more than he loved Jesus. The message was not that all people who have possessions need to run out and sell them in order to follow the Lord Jesus Christ. The message is that there should be nothing in your life that will hinder you from doing the Lord's will. The young man's reaction to what Jesus ordered him to do was clear evidence that his possessions hindered him from doing what the Lord would have him do. However, if it were the possessions themselves then why would the Lord ever provide us with any of them?

Remember . . .

The Lord told the disciples that if they seek ye first the kingdom of God then all those possessions they were in need of would be provided for them. Paul said that God would supply all his need according to His riches in glory through Christ Jesus.

I once heard a preacher say that God doesn't mind if you have stuff as long as stuff doesn't have you.And no one had more stuff than Job. But he maintained his faith despite losing all his stuff as well as all his children. That showed that he loved God more than anything. As a result, he was blessed with twice as much stuff and children. If we don't love God and Christ more than we love our stuff or our families then we are not worthy of being His disciples.

1 John 2
15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Matthew 10
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 6
19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

If anyone is accumulating wealth for their own pleasure rather than to give towards helping lead people to Christ and to discipling believers then that shows their hearts are on worldly things rather than heavenly things and that means the love of the Father is not in them and they are not worthy of Christ.