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Chellee
Nov 6th 2008, 08:20 PM
Hello, everyone. :)
On another message board that I frequent (not Biblical), a discussion has come up about religion and Christianity. Many points are coming up against Christianity, and I feel confident in my reply to each point except one:
Scientists say it's a solid fact that dinosaurs and humans never co-existed. While I don't personally believe this to be true, I am uncertain how to respond to this, and I'd rather not give an answer regarding this if I don't know what I'm talking about. :P
Any assistance on this topic would be great; thanks! :D

David Taylor
Nov 6th 2008, 08:49 PM
All ancient cultures from Europe, to South America, to Australia, to China, to Africa have similar representations of dragons.

These developed independently with each culture, long before the cultures intermingled and knew of one another like they do today.

Ever wondered why nearly all ancient cultures had dragons, and what do they look similar too?

teddyv
Nov 6th 2008, 09:05 PM
Hello, everyone. :)
On another message board that I frequent (not Biblical), a discussion has come up about religion and Christianity. Many points are coming up against Christianity, and I feel confident in my reply to each point except one:
Scientists say it's a solid fact that dinosaurs and humans never co-existed. While I don't personally believe this to be true, I am uncertain how to respond to this, and I'd rather not give an answer regarding this if I don't know what I'm talking about. :P
Any assistance on this topic would be great; thanks! :D

I guess I can't be of help since I agree that dinosaurs and humans did not coexist. Based on the best scientific evidence this is true. If you are going to attempt to refute this scientifically you have your work cut out for you.

th1bill
Nov 6th 2008, 10:10 PM
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-trail.htm

... The link above will help you with the existing evidence that scientists refuse to deal with.
... Then there is the truth that Dinosaurs are mentioned and described more than once in the scriptures and that is on top of the truth that the dinosaurs are at this moment walking the earth along-side mankind. It is known by science that lizards do not cease to grow until they die. Before Adam sinned there was no death and they just grew until they were huge and now they die much sooner. Like most things in this world, common sense must be applied.

GitRDunn
Nov 6th 2008, 10:16 PM
Well, I feel that it could be possible either way and I can explain how it doesn't have to contradict the Bible and could still be true that they didn't co-exist, then even if you don't necessarily believe it as true, you could show them that Christianity doesn't necessarily contradict it. If you would rather not take this approach that's fine, but if you would, please say so.

Jeffinator
Nov 7th 2008, 05:48 AM
Job 40:15-24

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16 Lo now, his strength [is] in his loins, and his force [is] in the navel of his belly.
17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18 His bones [are as] strong pieces of brass; his bones [are] like bars of iron.
19 He [is] the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his
sword to approach [unto him].
20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22 The shady trees cover him [with] their shadow; the willows of the brook
compass him about.
23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, [and] hasteth not: he trusteth that he
can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
24 He taketh it with his eyes: [his] nose pierceth through snares.

Sounds like a dinosaur to me

BrckBrln
Nov 7th 2008, 05:54 AM
All ancient cultures from Europe, to South America, to Australia, to China, to Africa have similar representations of dragons.

These developed independently with each culture, long before the cultures intermingled and knew of one another like they do today.

Ever wondered why nearly all ancient cultures had dragons, and what do they look similar too?

Don't you know that dragons are just the evolutionary mashing of snakes, big cats, and birds; the three things our ancestors (apes and whatnot) feared the most? Or something like that. :rolleyes: :rofl:

Luke34
Nov 7th 2008, 06:12 AM
On another message board that I frequent (not Biblical), a discussion has come up about religion and Christianity. Many points are coming up against Christianity, and I feel confident in my reply to each point except one:
Scientists say it's a solid fact that dinosaurs and humans never co-existed. And they're right. But I fail to see how that's a point against Christianity, rather than just against young-earth creationism.

markedward
Nov 7th 2008, 04:29 PM
Try browsing this website.

http://s8int.com/dinolit1.html

Apparently ancient pottery depicts many animals that resemble various dinosaurs... (re: humans made the pottery). There's about 70 or so pages on the site.

Rufus_1611
Nov 7th 2008, 04:40 PM
Hello, everyone. :)
On another message board that I frequent (not Biblical), a discussion has come up about religion and Christianity. Many points are coming up against Christianity, and I feel confident in my reply to each point except one:
Scientists say it's a solid fact that dinosaurs and humans never co-existed. The smart people once said that all swans are white.


While I don't personally believe this to be true, I am uncertain how to respond to this, and I'd rather not give an answer regarding this if I don't know what I'm talking about. :P
Any assistance on this topic would be great; thanks! :D The Biblical evidence should be your primary foundation, such as what Jeffinator posted. However, since these folks may not believe in the Bible, you might take a look at the research done on the Paluxy River (http://www.rae.org/paluxy.html) here in Texas.

th1bill
Nov 7th 2008, 05:09 PM
Luke,
... I'm sorry but you seem to be as young as your avatar makes you out to be and you have stepped into the middle of a mistake once more. The web site I gave to this young lady proves, without a question, that your assurance of the dinos and humans not living together is not true. I understand that what you have said is exactly what is taught in school but I also know that the teaching of a point has never made it fact. According to the current teaching in school, evolution is a fact, when the opposite is true. You will not even get a scientist, in that field of study, to defend the idea, only teachers. With the advent of the Internet and the effort to put everything known onto it there is abundant information, freely, available and you, really, need to begin to research your ideas before you post them.

markedward
Nov 7th 2008, 05:27 PM
I'm sorry but you seem to be as young as your avatar makes you out to be and you have stepped into the middle of a mistake once more.Do you really find it obligatory to insult people just because you disagree with them? This is completely unnecessary of you to do. Age has nothing to do with it, and your assumption that he hasn't done any research is simply arrogant - if you don't know him personally you have absolutely no right to assume anything about him or what research he has (or hasn't) done. If he had said the same thing and was ten, twenty or thirty years older, would you still have made a deal about his age? No. Age is irrelevant in this discussion, so to point it out and use it as a way to discredit him is just malicious.

crawfish
Nov 7th 2008, 06:04 PM
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-trail.htm

... The link above will help you with the existing evidence that scientists refuse to deal with.
... Then there is the truth that Dinosaurs are mentioned and described more than once in the scriptures and that is on top of the truth that the dinosaurs are at this moment walking the earth along-side mankind. It is known by science that lizards do not cease to grow until they die. Before Adam sinned there was no death and they just grew until they were huge and now they die much sooner. Like most things in this world, common sense must be applied.

Not dealt with? Scientists successfully disputed that long ago. Even AIG (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp)says you shouldn't use it as an argument.

th1bill
Nov 7th 2008, 07:29 PM
Do you really find it obligatory to insult people just because you disagree with them? This is completely unnecessary of you to do. Age has nothing to do with it, and your assumption that he hasn't done any research is simply arrogant - if you don't know him personally you have absolutely no right to assume anything about him or what research he has (or hasn't) done. If he had said the same thing and was ten, twenty or thirty years older, would you still have made a deal about his age? No. Age is irrelevant in this discussion, so to point it out and use it as a way to discredit him is just malicious.
... What you have maliciously attacked was meant for enlightenment. Your purpose?
... When I was young I thought as a youngster, when I matured, I became slow to open my mouth.

Chellee
Nov 7th 2008, 07:33 PM
Wow, thanks so much everyone for all your replies! There is a lot of great info here, to be sure. Thanks! :)

σяєяυииєя
Nov 7th 2008, 07:34 PM
Hello Chelle,


What I have believed is that they [dinos] were created somehow by the people living before the flood when dinos were wiped out.

Take Care

Chellee
Nov 7th 2008, 07:36 PM
I guess I can't be of help since I agree that dinosaurs and humans did not coexist. Based on the best scientific evidence this is true. If you are going to attempt to refute this scientifically you have your work cut out for you.

Thanks for your reply. Can you explain your thoughts on creation according to the Bible if you believe they did not co-exist? (I'm not asking to argue or give you an attitude or anything, I would genuinely like your point of view) :)

Chellee
Nov 7th 2008, 07:40 PM
Well, I feel that it could be possible either way and I can explain how it doesn't have to contradict the Bible and could still be true that they didn't co-exist, then even if you don't necessarily believe it as true, you could show them that Christianity doesn't necessarily contradict it. If you would rather not take this approach that's fine, but if you would, please say so.

Hi, thanks for your reply. I'd love to hear your explanation. My goal with these people (on the other message board) is to hopefully make them think twice about the Bible, since so many easily dismiss it as being inaccurate, contradictory to science, etc. So really any point of view on this subject would be welcome. :)

Lamplighter
Nov 7th 2008, 08:14 PM
Thousands of dinosaur species are still living today, they are just the smaller species. The larger dinosaurs died out 1000's of years ago due to habitat changes after the flood of Noah. Same thing happened to the larger mammals. The giant mammal species died out due to habitat changes. 6 animal species go extinct every day here on Earth to to habitat changes, mostly caused by man. If it were not for animal conservation laws around the world, all of the wild African jungle animals would be dead by now. All of the non domesticated animals here in the USA would be dead by now. This is the case all around the world. Mankind due to their sin, has caused the extinction of almost every non domesticated animal on the planet. It's no big surprise that we have very few non-domesticated wild animals left.

crawfish
Nov 7th 2008, 08:14 PM
... Alright, let's see your case. Please, invalidate the data.

Here's the answer on TalkOrigins. You can get more detail than you probably want by drilling down into the links.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html

What I read there, plus the fact that AIG is distancing itself from the argument somewhat, should make one leery about considering the human footprint assessment fact, or even a strong likelihood. It's not like it's new or anything - we've had the prints for 40 years. If scientists are not paying attention to it it's probably because they see no reason to.

markedward
Nov 7th 2008, 08:16 PM
... What you have maliciously attacked was meant for enlightenment. Your purpose?I attacked? You were using his age as a manner to discredit his contribution to the discussion. You made assumptions about his maturity and his knowledge on the subject. All you were trying to do was debase him. I merely pointed this out.

Saying that your ageism is unnecessary (since it's not) and your assumptions about his knowledge are arrogant (that's what assumptions are: a person pretending to know what they don't know, which is arrogant) is not malicious nor an attack. It's showing that what you said against him was completely uncalled for.

I'm fine with you pointing out that "school teachers say this" and "the website said this", but using his age as a counter-point and pretending to know something about him is just wrongful to do.

But whatever. You can claim I "maliciously attacked" you for pointing this out. Just try to stop yourself from debasing someone else on the sole point of their age, and don't pretend like you know the extent of someone else's knowledge when you really don't.

crawfish
Nov 7th 2008, 08:18 PM
Hi, thanks for your reply. I'd love to hear your explanation. My goal with these people (on the other message board) is to hopefully make them think twice about the Bible, since so many easily dismiss it as being inaccurate, contradictory to science, etc. So really any point of view on this subject would be welcome. :)

There are two ways to go about this: 1) convince them that the bible IS strong science and mcuh scientific thought is wrong, or 2) convince them that the bible doesn't teach science.

Non-Christians, especially those with a scientific bent, are not going to be impressed by weak or misunderstood evidence. It's better to avoid the former option if you don't have a really strong understanding of the underlying issues.

crawfish
Nov 7th 2008, 08:19 PM
I attacked? You were using his age as a manner to discredit his contribution to the discussion. You made assumptions about his maturity and his knowledge on the subject. All you were trying to do was debase him. I merely pointed this out.

Don't be too hard on him - I think he's going senile.






p.s. I'm only joking here. Honest. ;)

GitRDunn
Nov 7th 2008, 11:15 PM
Hi, thanks for your reply. I'd love to hear your explanation. My goal with these people (on the other message board) is to hopefully make them think twice about the Bible, since so many easily dismiss it as being inaccurate, contradictory to science, etc. So really any point of view on this subject would be welcome. :)
Ok, well before I say anything allow me to just say that I don't feel I can be sure whether God performed creationism or theistic evolution (God-controlled evolution) because we as humans don't know enough, all we know is that God controlled it. If you take the beginning of Genesis literally then you have to come to the conclusion of creationism because that is the only way everything could have come about it 6 Earth days, but the problem is, where does the Bible say that the beginning of Genesis is literal? It doesn't and because of this you can interpret it metaphorically like this. God is "living" (not sure if living is the right word but regardless) in eternity, so time doesn't mean to him what it means to us, so why do the "days" at the beginning of Genesis necessarily mean 24 hours on Earth? A day to God could be any length he wanted to say they were and could easily be billions of years. With this in mind, evolution would then be possible (as God controlled) because there would be enough time for it to happen. If evolution could be true by this reasoning (and scientific evidence does strongly support evolution) then dinosaurs could have evolved and died off long before humans ever lived and thus they wouldn't have lived together. You see, the Bible doesn't have to contradict science and science doesn't have to contradict the Bible.

Luke34
Nov 8th 2008, 12:36 AM
Luke,
... I'm sorry but you seem to be as young as your avatar makes you out to be and you have stepped into the middle of a mistake once more. The web site I gave to this young lady proves, without a question, that your assurance of the dinos and humans not living together is not true. That thing? The only thing it demonstrated is that there are some things somewhere that sorta look vaguely like human footprints. As mentioned, this exact specific claim has been debunked by real scientists to such a degree that the creationists who produced a film on it have taken said film out of circulation. And if Answers in Genesis calls an argument outdated or unscientific, you know you're in trouble.

Also, I don't see what being young has to do with it, since I have the support of pretty much every scientist in the world.


I understand that what you have said is exactly what is taught in school but I also know that the teaching of a point has never made it fact. According to the current teaching in school, evolution is a fact, when the opposite is true. You will not even get a scientist, in that field of study, to defend the idea, only teachers. Since when has there been a strict "scientist/teacher" dichotomy? And I'm not sure if you mean that no scientists will defend evolution or that none will defend non-coexistence for humans and dinosaurs, but remember that over 99% of scientists in the relevant fields accept evolution. You can believe whatever you want about dinosaurs, but don't pretend that the scientific community doesn't believe the exact opposite.


With the advent of the Internet and the effort to put everything known onto it there is abundant information, freely, available and you, really, need to begin to research your ideas before you post them. The Internet's great and all, but that doesn't mean every unscientific creationist site is a wellspring of useful information.

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 8th 2008, 01:19 PM
I not sure about Dinosaurs but evolution is invalid...http://www.expelledthemovie.com/ to my point of view...maybe I will ask GOD the next time I met him.

th1bill
Nov 8th 2008, 01:40 PM
I attacked?
I went back and I read the post once more and while I am guilty of admitting that he speaks as a very young man, I did not flame him and I stayed on subject. You, on the other hand are off subject and you are flaming me as though to get me into a fight with you. Continue the flaming and I'll report you.

th1bill
Nov 8th 2008, 01:45 PM
Don't be too hard on him - I think he's going senile.






p.s. I'm only joking here. Honest. ;)
You have repeatedly flamed me and I have not reported you in the past from this point forward that will no longer be true. And as for my years you might find it interesting to do a Bible study on wisdom. But in this string, get off me and stick to the subject.

th1bill
Nov 8th 2008, 02:17 PM
Luke, I do not keep articles for proof-texting, such habits are inconsistent with life in small dwellings but I have read Newspaper and Journal Articles of the scientific community attempting to develop new and more reasonable theories for both the origin of the world and the appearance of man on the earth because both lack credibility and irrefutable evidence.

As for the presence of super lizards before the flood and in man's presence, as a Christian, you need to ask yourself a very basic question and it must be settled before you begin to place your positioning in the eternal realm on the teachings of non-believers and those that would call themselves by what I consider to be a misnomer, Liberal Christian. All the way back to Abram there has been one method of salvation and that is through "faith." Just as Abram believed and became Abraham, every believer since has lived by faith and not by sight. The natural man has never agreed with the Word of God and the follower of God is called upon to believe as a small child.

Before I was 14 I believed everything my father told me, because it was him that told me. From the time my son was six months old until he was about 14, he believed everything I told him because I was his dad. Now, in my mid-sixties I believe every word of the scriptures because my Heavenly Father has said so. I therefore live the eternal life, right this moment, because I live by faith in God and I live, understanding that everything I do and everything I think and say is a reflection on the Holy God I serve.

The Bible has settled the question of the super lizards for me, because God said so.

RZ06
Nov 8th 2008, 05:27 PM
I don't know much about this, but something I wanted to share that my husband just told me about as I was showing him the site th1bill shared, is about firmament. He searched for info about it so I could read and I wanted to share it.

THis goes w/ the site th1bill posted, about the big footprints and how large people got.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament

The firmament was a layer of water above the ground that was said to have been apart in keeping people alive, so they never died...Hence how big they grew...

Firmament is the usual English translation of the Hebrew "raqiya`" (pronounced rkē'ah) meaning an extended solid surface or flat expanse, considered to be a hemisphere above the ground.[1] The word is derived from the Hebrew raqa, meaning "to spread out" by stamping, stretching, beating, or making broad.[2], e.g. the process of making a metal bowl by hammering metal flat, or "to make a spreading (of clouds)". Thus, in the Bible, Elihu asks Job “Can you beat out [raqa] the vault of the skies, as he does, hard as a mirror of cast metal (Job 37:18)?” In the Vulgate, the word firmamentum is used, which in Classical Latin means a strengthening or support. For Jewish and Christian astronomers familiar with Greek astronomy, the firmament was the eighth sphere carrying the fixed stars and surrounding the seven spheres of the planets in the geocentric model.

The word is mentioned in the King James Bible, in the course of the creation story of (Genesis 1:6–8):

God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

The Jewish Encyclopaedia describes the Firmament as follows:

"The Hebrews regarded the earth as a plain or a hill figured like a hemisphere, swimming on water. Over this is arched the solid vault of heaven. To this vault are fastened the lights, the stars. So slight is this elevation that birds may rise to it and fly along its expanse."[1]

The book of Genesis goes on to mention lights being placed in the firmament (Genesis 1:14-17):

And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth": and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: the stars also.

The Sun and Moon were thought to move in and out of the Firmament dome through a series of openings (reflecting the apparent movement of their rising and setting points throughout the year). This is explained in considerable detail in the Book of Enoch (the following is an excerpt):

This is the first commandment of the luminaries: The sun is a luminary whose egress is an opening of heaven, which is (located) in the direction of the east, and whose ingress is (another) opening of heaven, (located) in the west. I saw six openings through which the sun rises and six openings through which it sets. The moon also rises and sets through the same openings, and they are guided by the stars; together with those whom they lead, they are six in the east and six in the west heaven. All of them (are arranged) one after another in a constant order. There are many windows (both) to the right and the left of these openings. First there goes out the great light whose name is the sun; its roundness is like the roundness of the sky; and it is totally filled with light and heat. The chariot in which it ascends is (driven by) the blowing wind. The sun sets in the sky (in the west) and returns by the northeast in order to go to the east; it is guided so that it shall reach the eastern gate and shine in the face of the sky (1 Enoch 72:2-5).

Biblical references to this cosmology (specifically, the notion of a solid Firmament with Heaven above it) include the creation of the Firmament in Genesis 1:6; God opening windows in the Firmament in Genesis 7:11 to let water rain down, and closing them again in Genesis 8:2; the construction of a tall tower to reach Heaven in Genesis 11:4; celestial warehouses for snow and hail in Job 38:22, the sky as a strong crystalline material in Job 37:18 and Ezekiel 1:22; the sky as a tent in Isaiah 40:22; stars as small objects attached to the Firmament (which can fall off) in Daniel 8:10, Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:25, Revelation 6:13, Revelation 8:10, Revelation 9:1 and Revelation 12:4 (it is sometimes claimed that these "falling stars" are meteors, but the swipe of a dragon's tail dislodges "one-third of all the stars in the sky" in Revelation 12:4).

The heavens are "rolled back like a scroll" in Revelation 6:14: however, as stars are apparently still being knocked off the Firmament in subsequent verses, it is unclear which layer is being removed at this point.

The Book of Baruch elaborates on the Tower of Babel story, with the builders reaching the Firmament and attempting to pierce it:

And they took a gimlet, and sought to pierce the heaven, saying, Let us see (whether) the heaven is made of clay, or of brass, or of iron. When God saw this He did not permit them, but smote them with blindness and confusion of speech, and rendered them as thou seest. (3 Baruch 3:7-8)

GitRDunn
Nov 8th 2008, 06:00 PM
I don't know much about this, but something I wanted to share that my husband just told me about as I was showing him the site th1bill shared, is about firmament. He searched for info about it so I could read and I wanted to share it.

THis goes w/ the site th1bill posted, about the big footprints and how large people got.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament

The firmament was a layer of water above the ground that was said to have been apart in keeping people alive, so they never died...Hence how big they grew...

Firmament is the usual English translation of the Hebrew "raqiya`" (pronounced rkē'ah) meaning an extended solid surface or flat expanse, considered to be a hemisphere above the ground.[1] The word is derived from the Hebrew raqa, meaning "to spread out" by stamping, stretching, beating, or making broad.[2], e.g. the process of making a metal bowl by hammering metal flat, or "to make a spreading (of clouds)". Thus, in the Bible, Elihu asks Job “Can you beat out [raqa] the vault of the skies, as he does, hard as a mirror of cast metal (Job 37:18)?” In the Vulgate, the word firmamentum is used, which in Classical Latin means a strengthening or support. For Jewish and Christian astronomers familiar with Greek astronomy, the firmament was the eighth sphere carrying the fixed stars and surrounding the seven spheres of the planets in the geocentric model.

The word is mentioned in the King James Bible, in the course of the creation story of (Genesis 1:6–8):

God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

The Jewish Encyclopaedia describes the Firmament as follows:

"The Hebrews regarded the earth as a plain or a hill figured like a hemisphere, swimming on water. Over this is arched the solid vault of heaven. To this vault are fastened the lights, the stars. So slight is this elevation that birds may rise to it and fly along its expanse."[1]

The book of Genesis goes on to mention lights being placed in the firmament (Genesis 1:14-17):

And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth": and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: the stars also.

The Sun and Moon were thought to move in and out of the Firmament dome through a series of openings (reflecting the apparent movement of their rising and setting points throughout the year). This is explained in considerable detail in the Book of Enoch (the following is an excerpt):

This is the first commandment of the luminaries: The sun is a luminary whose egress is an opening of heaven, which is (located) in the direction of the east, and whose ingress is (another) opening of heaven, (located) in the west. I saw six openings through which the sun rises and six openings through which it sets. The moon also rises and sets through the same openings, and they are guided by the stars; together with those whom they lead, they are six in the east and six in the west heaven. All of them (are arranged) one after another in a constant order. There are many windows (both) to the right and the left of these openings. First there goes out the great light whose name is the sun; its roundness is like the roundness of the sky; and it is totally filled with light and heat. The chariot in which it ascends is (driven by) the blowing wind. The sun sets in the sky (in the west) and returns by the northeast in order to go to the east; it is guided so that it shall reach the eastern gate and shine in the face of the sky (1 Enoch 72:2-5).

Biblical references to this cosmology (specifically, the notion of a solid Firmament with Heaven above it) include the creation of the Firmament in Genesis 1:6; God opening windows in the Firmament in Genesis 7:11 to let water rain down, and closing them again in Genesis 8:2; the construction of a tall tower to reach Heaven in Genesis 11:4; celestial warehouses for snow and hail in Job 38:22, the sky as a strong crystalline material in Job 37:18 and Ezekiel 1:22; the sky as a tent in Isaiah 40:22; stars as small objects attached to the Firmament (which can fall off) in Daniel 8:10, Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:25, Revelation 6:13, Revelation 8:10, Revelation 9:1 and Revelation 12:4 (it is sometimes claimed that these "falling stars" are meteors, but the swipe of a dragon's tail dislodges "one-third of all the stars in the sky" in Revelation 12:4).

The heavens are "rolled back like a scroll" in Revelation 6:14: however, as stars are apparently still being knocked off the Firmament in subsequent verses, it is unclear which layer is being removed at this point.

The Book of Baruch elaborates on the Tower of Babel story, with the builders reaching the Firmament and attempting to pierce it:

And they took a gimlet, and sought to pierce the heaven, saying, Let us see (whether) the heaven is made of clay, or of brass, or of iron. When God saw this He did not permit them, but smote them with blindness and confusion of speech, and rendered them as thou seest. (3 Baruch 3:7-8)
Ok, so I'm a bit confused, are you saying you believe in the "holes in the firmament" for how the sun and moon rise and set? Also, are you saying that you believe the firmament is close enough to the ground that it is possible for birds to fly to it? I'm not trying to attack you or anything, I'm just to better understand what you are saying. Also, what does this have to do with dinosaurs? I'm sorry if I missed the connection.

Edit:

You have repeatedly flamed me and I have not reported you in the past from this point forward that will no longer be true. And as for my years you might find it interesting to do a Bible study on wisdom. But in this string, get off me and stick to the subject.
Calm down, I don't think that he meant any flaming towards you, that is why he said he was joking. A joke isn't flaming, it was just a friendly joke.

crawfish
Nov 8th 2008, 07:56 PM
Calm down, I don't think that he meant any flaming towards you, that is why he said he was joking. A joke isn't flaming, it was just a friendly joke.

Thanks, GitRDunn. I'll re-emphasize that I was just trying to diffuse a tense conversation with some humor. I mean no offense to anyone, and I respect both the wisdom of those older than me and the opinions of those younger than me.

Luke34
Nov 8th 2008, 09:40 PM
Luke, I do not keep articles for proof-texting, such habits are inconsistent with life in small dwellings but I have read Newspaper and Journal Articles of the scientific community attempting to develop new and more reasonable theories for both the origin of the world and the appearance of man on the earth because both lack credibility and irrefutable evidence. Evolution does not address the origin of the world. That's cosmology. And your claim that any significant number of scientists dissent from evolution by natural selection as the best explanation for the observed history of life on earth is simply not true; evolution is as well- and widely accepted as a scientific theory can be among scientists.


Before I was 14 I believed everything my father told me, because it was him that told me. From the time my son was six months old until he was about 14, he believed everything I told him because I was his dad. Now, in my mid-sixties I believe every word of the scriptures because my Heavenly Father has said so. I therefore live the eternal life, right this moment, because I live by faith in God and I live, understanding that everything I do and everything I think and say is a reflection on the Holy God I serve.

The Bible has settled the question of the super lizards for me, because God said so.
[/COLOR] I don't believe that every word in the Bible should be read literally, because that is missing the point as thoroughly as reading the entire thing as an allegory/myth would be. Since I know that some parts of the Bible, if read literally, contradict reality--e.g. the earth does not have "four corners"--I could not read the entire Bible as scientific fact without feeling like I was intentionally warping the truth. It's not like a literal reading is de facto better than an allegorical one, so if there's no reason to treat the entire book allegorically, there's no reason to do so literally.

kevinvr
Nov 14th 2008, 02:11 AM
I have been struggling with these questions too for some time. Yesterday one of my third graders asked me if there will be dinosaurs in heaven. My reply was "I don't know".
Isaiah 11 speaks of the calf and lion, wolf and sheep, but is this clear biblical evidence that animals will be in heaven? Are dinosaurs included?
Please excuse my limited knowledge on this issue, but I haven't had time to study it yet.
Question 1. How big are the biggest dinosaur fossils that have been found?
Question 2. Will there be dinosaurs in heaven?

I have only just started out on this board so please tell me if I should start a new thread or if these questions have been answered please point me to the answers.
God bless

Lamplighter
Nov 14th 2008, 04:24 AM
I have been struggling with these questions too for some time. Yesterday one of my third graders asked me if there will be dinosaurs in heaven. My reply was "I don't know".
Isaiah 11 speaks of the calf and lion, wolf and sheep, but is this clear biblical evidence that animals will be in heaven? Are dinosaurs included?
Please excuse my limited knowledge on this issue, but I haven't had time to study it yet.
Question 1. How big are the biggest dinosaur fossils that have been found?
Question 2. Will there be dinosaurs in heaven?

I have only just started out on this board so please tell me if I should start a new thread or if these questions have been answered please point me to the answers.
God bless

Dinosaurs are still living today, only they are the smaller species of Dinosaurs. Turtles, Sharks, Crocodiles, Snails, Insects, etc... are still alive today. The real question is, why are the gigantic species of Dinosaurs all extinct?

GitRDunn
Nov 14th 2008, 05:12 AM
Dinosaurs are still living today, only they are the smaller species of Dinosaurs. Turtles, Sharks, Crocodiles, Snails, Insects, etc... are still alive today. The real question is, why are the gigantic species of Dinosaurs all extinct?
Those aren't dinosaurs in the normal sense of the word, all of those (except perhaps a loch ness monster or two) are long dead.

From http://www.digonsite.com/drdig/dinos/31.html:
"In 1841, Sir Richard Owen coined the word "dinosaur" to identify the fossils of extinct reptiles. It traces its origins to the Greek words deinos, meaning "terrible" or "fearfully great," and sauros, meaning "lizard.""

I don't know that there are any lizards today (and snails, insects, sharks are not even reptiles, which is what dinosaurs were) that could necessarily be described as "fearfully great", they are all dead and all that is left of them are fossils. The reason they are all dead is because of a great natural disaster that killed them all.


I have been struggling with these questions too for some time. Yesterday one of my third graders asked me if there will be dinosaurs in heaven. My reply was "I don't know".
Isaiah 11 speaks of the calf and lion, wolf and sheep, but is this clear biblical evidence that animals will be in heaven? Are dinosaurs included?
Please excuse my limited knowledge on this issue, but I haven't had time to study it yet.
Question 1. How big are the biggest dinosaur fossils that have been found?
Question 2. Will there be dinosaurs in heaven?

I have only just started out on this board so please tell me if I should start a new thread or if these questions have been answered please point me to the answers.
God bless
1: This site (http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/allabout/Extremes.html) contains lists of all the extremes of dinosaurs you could imagine, biggest ones, smallest ones, etc., but to answer your question quickly, here is what is said on this site about the biggest bones ever found (these are single bones):

LARGEST FOSSIL BONES FOUND
The largest fossil bones found are from the giant sauropods (http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/glossary/Sauropod.shtml) and include the 8 feet (2.45 m) long shoulder blade of the Ultrasauros (http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/dinos/Ultrasauros.shtml), Brachiosaurus (http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/dinos/Brachiosaurus.shtml) thigh bones over 6 feet (1.8 m) long, and neck vertebrae of Seismosaurus (http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/dinos/Seismosaurus.shtml) that are over 6 feet (1.8 m) long.

Question 2: I wish I could be of more help on this one, but I truly don't know. I've often wondered if there won't be animals in Heaven, and if there are animals then why not dinosaurs? As for Isiah 11, I'm no Bible scholar, but I've heard different mentions that maybe they aren't actual animals and are symbolic of other things (i.e.- Jesus is sometimes referred to as the Lamb). Hopefully someone else can help you out more on this one.

God Bless!

σяєяυииєя
Nov 14th 2008, 05:28 AM
Interesting stuff Git,


LARGEST FOSSIL BONES FOUND
The largest fossil bones found are from the giant sauropods and include the 8 feet (2.45 m) long shoulder blade of the Ultrasauros, Brachiosaurus thigh bones over 6 feet (1.8 m) long, and neck vertebrae of Seismosaurus that are over 6 feet (1.8 m) long.

Do you think any one of those, could belong to the animal mentioned in the book of Job?

Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?

Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?

Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.

Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?

Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.

His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.

One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.

They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.

By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.

Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.

Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron
Job 41:1-4, 8,9, 14-20

Go well

Yukerboy
Nov 14th 2008, 09:30 AM
I have been struggling with these questions too for some time. Yesterday one of my third graders asked me if there will be dinosaurs in heaven. My reply was "I don't know".

I love what Billy Graham had told a 6th grader who had her puppy run over by a car.

She asked him if she would see her beloved puppy in heaven.

He said "not a chance kiddo, get out of here."

OK, I'm kidding! He actually said "Honey, if you want him there, he'll be there."

That was perfect. In heaven, if all is perfect, then any desire (including old pets) will be fulfilled.

So, if you are in heaven and you want to see a dinosaur, you will see a dinosaur.

Yuke

GitRDunn
Nov 15th 2008, 10:31 PM
Interesting stuff Git,



Do you think any one of those, could belong to the animal mentioned in the book of Job?

Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?

Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?

Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.

Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?

Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.

His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.

One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.

They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.

By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.

Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.

Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron
Job 41:1-4, 8,9, 14-20

Go well
I truly don't know. I haven't done any study on these verses and in just reading them right now, I don't know whether to say it is speaking about one animal (and if so which one) or if it is symbolic of something that isn't an animal and is utilizing personification.

σяєяυииєя
Nov 16th 2008, 12:06 AM
Alright,

By the way I am spanish and in the spanish Bible I do use often, I would say there are more times when Leviathan is mentioned. Thanks any way.

See you around Git

GitRDunn
Nov 16th 2008, 04:11 AM
Alright,

By the way I am spanish and in the spanish Bible I do use often, I would say there are more times when Leviathan is mentioned. Thanks any way.

See you around Git
Are you saying it is used more times in this verse or elsewhere in the Bible? If so, do you know where at and how it contrasts to an English translation? Sorry I couldn't be more help and I hope to see you around more too.

σяєяυииєя
Nov 16th 2008, 04:43 AM
Well in Biblegateway,

Looked it up and then came up:

1. Job 3:8
May those who curse days curse that day, those who are ready to rouse Leviathan.
Job 3:7-9
2. Job 41:1
"Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?
Job 41:1-3
3. Psalm 74:14
It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave him as food to the creatures of the desert.
Psalm 74:13-15
4. Psalm 104:26
There the ships go to and fro, and the leviathan, which you formed to frolic there.
Psalm 104:25-27
5. Isaiah 27:1
[ Deliverance of Israel ] In that day, the LORD will punish with his sword, his fierce, great and powerful sword, Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; he will slay the monster of the sea.
Isaiah 27:1-3


See you later GIƬЯDЦПП

kevinvr
Nov 16th 2008, 12:57 PM
Thanks for the links and interesting info. I will check it out.
God Bless.
:)

GitRDunn
Nov 21st 2008, 10:15 PM
Thanks for the links and interesting info. I will check it out.
God Bless.
:)
Sure thing, I'm glad to help.