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sheina maidle
Nov 6th 2008, 11:57 PM
God made three major kinds of promises in the Abrahamic Covenant.

First, there were personal promises to Abraham. God vowed to: bless Abraham and to make him a blessing to others (Genesis 12:2); to make his name great (Genesis 12:2); to give him many physical descendants (Genesis 13:16; 15:4-5; 17:6); to make him a father of a multitude of nations (Genesis 17:4-5); to give him the land of Canaan for and everlasting possession (Genesis 13:14-15, 17; 15:7; 17:8); and to bless those who blessed Abraham and curse those who cursed him (Genesis 12:3)

Second, God made national promises concerning Israel. God promised: to make a great nation of Abraham's physical descendants (Genesis 12:2); to give the land of Canaan from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates to Abraham's physical descendants forever (Genesis 12:7; 13:14-15; 15:18-21; 17:8); and to give the Abrahamic Covenant to his descendants for an everlasting covenant (Genesis 17:7, 19). The fact that God promised to give Abraham's physical descendants the land of Canaan forever and the covenant for an everlasting covenant demands that Israel never perish as a people. Should Israel ever perish as a nation, it could not possess the land forever, and its Abrahamic Covenant could not be everlasting.

Third, God made universal promises which would affect all peoples of the world. God vowed that: all families of the earth would be blessed through Abraham's physical line of descent (Genesis 12:3; 22:18; 28:14). Great spiritual blessing has been made available to all peoples through Jesus Christ and the Jews.

Taken from "There Really Is A Difference: A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology" by Dr. Renald E. Showers, pgs. 57-58

The Parson
Nov 7th 2008, 01:49 AM
Just so ya know ya'll. The title of this thread is not an invitation to start a Word of Faith defense free for all. :D Please follow the OP with the direction of this thread.

Jim1
Nov 7th 2008, 02:04 AM
In Galatians 3, Paul says that the inheritance of the promises goes to Christ and in turn to those who belong to Him. In verse 3:16, the passage that he quotes in support of this logic is Genesis 13:15 and/or 17:8 in the LXX, which is the land promise. So the idea that the Church gets some of the promises whereas unbelieving Israel gets the rest of the promises is not Biblical. The saints (believers in Christ) are the children of the promise, the heirs. Period. There is no alternative inheritance.

sheina maidle
Nov 7th 2008, 04:02 AM
In Galatians 3, Paul says that the inheritance of the promises goes to Christ and in turn to those who belong to Him. In verse 3:16, the passage that he quotes in support of this logic is Genesis 13:15 and/or 17:8 in the LXX, which is the land promise. So the idea that the Church gets some of the promises whereas unbelieving Israel gets the rest of the promises is not Biblical. The saints (believers in Christ) are the children of the promise, the heirs. Period. There is no alternative inheritance.
The Abrahamic Covenant is an unconditional covenant...which means that the promises are dependant on the faithfulness of God to His Word, not upon human obedience. The Abrahamic Covenant was established by God with Abraham and his physical descendants, Isaac, Jacob, and the people of Israel. God did not promise the Church a land...the promise/inheritance of the saints is an eternal inheritance:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, (1 Peter 1:3-4)

The promises to the Church are not earthly, but spiritual. Unbelieving Israel will not remain in unbelief...and when they turn back to the Lord after the Tribulation (Romans 11:27)...it is at that time when the their inheritance of the land will be fulfilled, when Jesus Christ will set up His earthly Kingdom and rule and reign for 1,000 years.

Emanate
Nov 7th 2008, 04:19 PM
As a side note, does anyone remember the seal of the covenant of faith?

David Taylor
Nov 7th 2008, 05:27 PM
The promises to the Church are not earthly, but spiritual.

Unbelieving Israel will not remain in unbelief...and when they turn back to the Lord


"when they turn back to the Lord"...
...they too, will become members of the Church.

The Church isn't a racial group; it is a faithful group of all people, tribes, tongues, and nations....who belong to and follow Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3:21 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. "

drew
Nov 7th 2008, 06:06 PM
Second, God made national promises concerning Israel. God promised: to make a great nation of Abraham's physical descendants (Genesis 12:2); to give the land of Canaan from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates to Abraham's physical descendants forever (Genesis 12:7; 13:14-15; 15:18-21; 17:8); and to give the Abrahamic Covenant to his descendants for an everlasting covenant (Genesis 17:7, 19). The fact that God promised to give Abraham's physical descendants the land of Canaan forever and the covenant for an everlasting covenant demands that Israel never perish as a people.
The problem with this view is that it does not harmonize with Paul. Paul comes to the startling realization that promises stated to be for Israel have been delivered - not to Israel - but to Jesus, and through him to His people. And the notion that Israel has any special status in the present is entirely inconsistent with Paul's repeated argument as to how the Jew and the Gentile have exactly the same status in the post-resurrection world

We need to look at the entire scriptural story. Here is how Paul makes sense of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus and thus discerns the true intent behind all the promises made to Israel:

Instead of poltitical vindication for Israel in front of the pagan nations, Jesus is vindicated against the powers of sin and death.

Instead of from political exile for Israel, Jesus is returned from exile into death.

And, instead of Palestine for Israel, Jesus is raised as the lord of all the world.

drew
Nov 7th 2008, 06:11 PM
God did not promise the Church a land....
Paul clearly thinks otherwise. Here in this text from Romans 8, Paul identifies the "inheritance" of the church. And it is indeed a "land". It is not Palestine, but the entire world, to be ultimately re-made as our eternal home:

16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. 18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28123i)] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

drew
Nov 7th 2008, 06:16 PM
The promises to the Church are not earthly, but spiritual.
I suggest that this statement leverages off a deep, yet fundamentally mistaken dualist conception of God's world. The problem is that we look at promise written by Hebrew people through eyeglasses that have been purchased at Plato's eyeglass store.

There is no "spirit vs earthly" dichotomy in Christain theology. There is a "new creature vs Old creature" dichotomy however. Raised in a culture deeply influenced by Platonic (Greek) ideas, we read that Greek dualism (there is a "physical" domain and there is a "spiritual" domain) back into the texts of the Scriptures and thereby misread them.

drew
Nov 8th 2008, 12:18 AM
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, (1 Peter 1:3-4)
Obviously, this is an argument of the form: the promises of the land are for Israel and the promises for the church are ones related to "heaven". Well, we know that Paul and the other New Testament writers do not hold the view that the final destination of the believer is "heaven" - it is a remade and transformed physical world (Romans 4, Romans 8:18 and following, Rev 22, and others).

So this argument that "the land is for Israel, the church gets heaven" is not correct.

And here is how to make sense of the above text you have posted: Suppose I invite a friend over for some cold iced tea. I tell him that I have "iced tea reserved in the fridge" for him - that is his "inheritance" or reward for coming to visit me.

Does he need to get into the fridge to drink the iced tea? Of course not - we take the iced tea out of the fridge and drink it in the living room.

Same with this text. An inheritance is being "stored" for us in heaven. But, as per Rev 22 and the account of heaven descending to earth, the ultimate inheritance is not heaven, but a renewed and transformed world (or earth).

sheina maidle
Nov 8th 2008, 08:51 PM
Obviously, this is an argument of the form: the promises of the land are for Israel and the promises for the church are ones related to "heaven". Well, we know that Paul and the other New Testament writers do not hold the view that the final destination of the believer is "heaven" - it is a remade and transformed physical world (Romans 4, Romans 8:18 and following, Rev 22, and others).

So this argument that "the land is for Israel, the church gets heaven" is not correct.

And here is how to make sense of the above text you have posted: Suppose I invite a friend over for some cold iced tea. I tell him that I have "iced tea reserved in the fridge" for him - that is his "inheritance" or reward for coming to visit me.

Does he need to get into the fridge to drink the iced tea? Of course not - we take the iced tea out of the fridge and drink it in the living room.

Same with this text. An inheritance is being "stored" for us in heaven. But, as per Rev 22 and the account of heaven descending to earth, the ultimate inheritance is not heaven, but a renewed and transformed world (or earth).
The point of discussion (not argument) is the faithfulness of God in keeping His promises (through the Abrahamic Covenant) to the nation of Israel. I am attempting to present the Dispensational Theology teaching of this covenant, (which makes a definite distinction between the Church and Israel) as compared to the Covenant Theology teaching (which does not make a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church).