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Firstfruits
Nov 7th 2008, 11:12 AM
If Angels that have been in the presence of God in Heaven can be condemned to Hell because of sin, what about us that have known the way of righteousness and have gone astray?

2 Pet 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Pet 2:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Pet 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

2 Pet 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2 Pet 2:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Lk 12:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Lk 12:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Lk 12:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

If angels can fall and be condemned, what about us?

God bless!

Firstfruits

MercyChild
Nov 7th 2008, 11:19 AM
This is one amazing post, had me think a lot. Thank you for sharing!:)

RogerW
Nov 7th 2008, 12:21 PM
If Angels that have been in the presence of God in Heaven can be condemned to Hell because of sin, what about us that have known the way of righteousness and have gone astray?

2 Pet 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Pet 2:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Pet 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

2 Pet 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2 Pet 2:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Lk 12:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Lk 12:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Lk 12:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

If angels can fall and be condemned, what about us?

God bless!

Firstfruits

Greetings Firstfruits,

You have to remember when "messengers" is translated "angels" the context will determine whether the messenger is a heavenly being or a human being. God has both human and heavenly messengers. In the context of 2Peter 2, was it spirit messengers (angels) or human messengers "Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness"?

This passage is NOT speaking of fallen angels. It is speaking of human beings in the days of Noah, who were to be the messengers of God, but instead they chose to intermingle the godly line (messengers of God) with the ungodly line (daughters of man), and therefore they are held in darkness until the Judgement.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 7th 2008, 12:42 PM
Greetings Firstfruits,

You have to remember when "messengers" is translated "angels" the context will determine whether the messenger is a heavenly being or a human being. God has both human and heavenly messengers. In the context of 2Peter 2, was it spirit messengers (angels) or human messengers "Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness"?

This passage is NOT speaking of fallen angels. It is speaking of human beings in the days of Noah, who were to be the messengers of God, but instead they chose to intermingle the godly line (messengers of God) with the ungodly line (daughters of man), and therefore they are held in darkness until the Judgement.

Many Blessings,
RW

Are you saying that the following are not the same?

Mt 25:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2 Pet 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=65&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 7th 2008, 12:46 PM
This is one amazing post, had me think a lot. Thank you for sharing!:)

Thank you Steyn,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 7th 2008, 04:55 PM
Greetings Firstfruits,

You have to remember when "messengers" is translated "angels" the context will determine whether the messenger is a heavenly being or a human being. God has both human and heavenly messengers. In the context of 2Peter 2, was it spirit messengers (angels) or human messengers "Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness"?

This passage is NOT speaking of fallen angels. It is speaking of human beings in the days of Noah, who were to be the messengers of God, but instead they chose to intermingle the godly line (messengers of God) with the ungodly line (daughters of man), and therefore they are held in darkness until the Judgement.

Many Blessings,
RW

The passage speaks of more than just the days of Noah.

2 Pet 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Pet 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2 Pet 2:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

This speaks of Gods punishment on all those that sin, including the devil and his Angels.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 7th 2008, 05:07 PM
Are you saying that the following are not the same?

Mt 25:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The devil also has messengers. Everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and all of his messengers.



2 Pet 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

In context this passage is referring back to the days of Noah when the sons of God (God's messengers, the line of Seth) did not keep themselves pure, but intermarried with the daughters of men (ungodly line of Cain), thereby causing the Godly line to be defiled. These messengers, when they began to call upon the name of the Lord (birth of Seth), knew they were not to enter into marriage with the ungodly line of Cain. Since they did not keep the Godly line pure they defiled themselves, and are therefore waiting in the grave (the deepest abyss of hell) in darkness unto the Day of Judgment.



Jud 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=65&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Jude is referring to the same time period, and the same reason they have beeen reserved in darkness unto the Day of Judgment.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 7th 2008, 05:10 PM
The passage speaks of more than just the days of Noah.

2 Pet 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Pet 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2 Pet 2:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

This speaks of Gods punishment on all those that sin, including the devil and his Angels.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yes, it does, and it is telling us that just as those in the days of Noah are held in darkness unto the Judgment, so too, the ungodly cities of Sodom and Gomorrha, also those false prophets, and false teachers, who bring damnable heresies in the last days. These will all be reserved for the Day of Judgment.

Many Blessings,
RW

Richard H
Nov 7th 2008, 06:27 PM
If angels fell... what about us? Hmmm.... :hmm:

'Seems like God has things in control. :)
Just remain on the path and cling to Him.
He is able.
Trust and persist.

When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Matthew 19:25,26

For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,
to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
Hebrews 2:16-18

The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him,
since He always lives to make intercession for them.
Hebrews 7:23-25

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Jude 1:24,25

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
"I and the Father are one."
John 10:27-30

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should,
but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is,
because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are called according to His purpose.
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
and these whom He predestined, He also called;
and these whom He called, He also justified;
and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all,
how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died,
yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Who will separate us from the love of Christ?
Romans 8:26-35

Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Romans 7:24 - 8:2

"And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace,
which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
Acts 20:32

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present,
nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing,
will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:38,39

Firstfruits
Nov 7th 2008, 09:01 PM
The devil also has messengers. Everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and all of his messengers.



In context this passage is referring back to the days of Noah when the sons of God (God's messengers, the line of Seth) did not keep themselves pure, but intermarried with the daughters of men (ungodly line of Cain), thereby causing the Godly line to be defiled. These messengers, when they began to call upon the name of the Lord (birth of Seth), knew they were not to enter into marriage with the ungodly line of Cain. Since they did not keep the Godly line pure they defiled themselves, and are therefore waiting in the grave (the deepest abyss of hell) in darkness unto the Day of Judgment.



Jude is referring to the same time period, and the same reason they have beeen reserved in darkness unto the Day of Judgment.

Many Blessings,
RW

With regards to the following scripture, can you explain what the following represent?

The Dragon.

The third part of the stars of Heaven.

Rev 12:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Is this not the Devil being cast out of heaven?
Did he not draw angels with him in rebelion which were castout with him?

Is 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Is 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Is 14:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Is 14:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

If these scripture are not regarding the Devil and the fallen angels then where in scripture is the mention of the devil and the fallen angel that were cast out of heaven?

Mt 25:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2 Pet 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=65&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 7th 2008, 09:04 PM
If angels fell... what about us? Hmmm.... :hmm:

'Seems like God has things in control. :)
Just remain on the path and cling to Him.
He is able.
Trust and persist.

When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Matthew 19:25,26

For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,
to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
Hebrews 2:16-18

The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him,
since He always lives to make intercession for them.
Hebrews 7:23-25

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Jude 1:24,25

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
"I and the Father are one."
John 10:27-30

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should,
but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is,
because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are called according to His purpose.
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
and these whom He predestined, He also called;
and these whom He called, He also justified;
and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all,
how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died,
yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Who will separate us from the love of Christ?
Romans 8:26-35

Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Romans 7:24 - 8:2

"And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace,
which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
Acts 20:32

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present,
nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing,
will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:38,39

Where or what has happened to the fallen angels that were cast out of Heaven with Satan?

Firstfruits

Richard H
Nov 7th 2008, 11:06 PM
Where or what has happened to the fallen angels that were cast out of Heaven with Satan?

Firstfruits;)

Well, Let's see... :hmm:

'Last I heard, they were being kept in the really hot part of hell - awaiting the judgement throne of God.

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Peter 2:4 KJV

NASB
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
...

then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
2Peter 2:9-11 NASB

jesuslover1968
Nov 7th 2008, 11:19 PM
If Angels that have been in the presence of God in Heaven can be condemned to Hell because of sin, what about us that have known the way of righteousness and have gone astray?

2 Pet 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Pet 2:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Pet 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

2 Pet 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2 Pet 2:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Lk 12:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Lk 12:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Lk 12:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

If angels can fall and be condemned, what about us?

God bless!

Firstfruits

Angels were not offered salvation. We were. Moot point. God Bless. :) :hug:

Butch5
Nov 8th 2008, 01:36 AM
Roger---In context this passage is referring back to the days of Noah when the sons of God (God's messengers, the line of Seth) did not keep themselves pure, but intermarried with the daughters of men (ungodly line of Cain), thereby causing the Godly line to be defiled. These messengers, when they began to call upon the name of the Lord (birth of Seth), knew they were not to enter into marriage with the ungodly line of Cain. Since they did not keep the Godly line pure they defiled themselves, and are therefore waiting in the grave (the deepest abyss of hell) in darkness unto the Day of Judgment.



Roger,

Do you have the first bit of Scripture to support this?

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 02:11 AM
With regards to the following scripture, can you explain what the following represent?

The Dragon.

The third part of the stars of Heaven.

Rev 12:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Is this not the Devil being cast out of heaven?
Did he not draw angels with him in rebelion which were castout with him?

Satan's tail is used as a synonym for false prophets who come to hurt and deceive the Children of God. The tail is the deception from the head. It is what follows the authority of the head and does it's bidding.

Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels [messengers] of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

In this symbolism the tail is those under the authority of satan who do his bidding. i.e., they follow the authority of the head. For example, look at Revelation chapter 9 where it speaks about the bottomless pit being opened and the plague of locusts that had "tails" like scorpions coming forth:


Revelation 9:10 "And had TAILS like unto SCORPIONS, and there were stings in their tails: and their POWER was to hurt men five months."

This is symbolic language to indicate that they are the emissaries of Satan. The tail to "signify" they are under the Authority of the serpent or scorpion. Satan is symbolized in scripture as the scorpion and the Serpent, and likewise those who are of satan. Again, note later on in that same chapter of Revelation we read of the horsemen who had been bound, and were loosed from Euphrates:
Revelation 9:19 "for their POWER is in their mouth, and in their TAILS: for their TAILS were like unto SERPENTS, and had heads, and with them they do hurt."

Again, we see the symbolism of power of the tail to hurt people, this time, not as of a scorpion, but as a serpent. You see they "both" represent the people who come under the power and authority of Satan. Both the Scorpion, and the Serpent are symbolic of Satan. The servants of Satan come with his power to hurt, and that's the symbolism of the tail of the Dragon casting down the stars of the Kingdom of heaven. Satan works out his power to Hurt men through his false prophets under his authority as the head. They are the tail.


In Revelation 12 the illustration is that Satan was attacking and bringing down the Congregation of Israel with great violence and warfare, casting Israel's Messengers down. This is what is recorded in:

Matthew 11:12 "and from the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force".
This is the violence in view. This is the Woman in the Kingdom of Heaven having her stars cast down to the earth. Satan is the accuser of the Brethren. That's what Isaiah 40:1 means when speaking of the Coming of Jesus, saying, "Comfort ye Jerusalem, that her warfare is accomplished, the Voice of him that crieth in the Wilderness!" In other words, when John came, he heralded the news that the warfare, the violence in the Kingdom would be completed, because Christ would bring Peace to Jerusalem. The Violence that the Kingdom suffered because of Satan came to an end at the birth of Christ.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/rev12.html



Is 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Is 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Is 14:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Is 14:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

If these scripture are not regarding the Devil and the fallen angels then where in scripture is the mention of the devil and the fallen angel that were cast out of heaven?

Rev 12:7 "and there was war in heaven: Michael and His angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels."


Michael is a signification for Christ. This word is of Hebrew origin and is [miykael], meaning "whom or he, is surely God". It's taken from three root words, [miy] meaning whom or he, [kiy] meaning surely or assuredly, and ['el], meaning God. [miykael] or Michael is Christ who assuredly is God. He is called the Arch (Chief or Head) Messenger because He is the Messenger of the Covenant (Malachi 3:1) who was prophesied to come.

Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts".

He is not an Angel, but a Messenger. The words translated angel and messenger are the exact same words. Christ and His messengers fought, and the Devil and His messengers fought, and Satan and his messengers were defeated by the cross of Christ. Christ strengthened the Covenant by His death (Heb. 9:17).

So often many lose sight of the fact that Revelation is using symbolic language all throughout this chapter. Sun, Moon, Stars, and they being in heaven are all Symbolic of something else, not the Literal heaven, a woman, the sun, or stars. That is quite obvious! The warfare was a Spiritual warfare. When Isaiah says Jerusalem's warfare was accomplished or finished, it wasn't talking about literal war with clubs, swords or literal fighting. It is a warfare infinitely more important. We see this pictured gloriously as Jesus sends the 70 out 2 by 2 with the gospel, and they returned saying Satan couldn't harm them, (ye shall take up serpents) and even the spirits were subject to them. Christ the arch or chief Messenger (not angel) gave his messengers this Power, a prelude to what power they would have because of the cross. Their battle gear was the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God. That was what they fought with. And their victory was assured only in Christ! Listen and hear what Jesus tells His messengers as He sends them out two by two.

Luke 10:16-18 "He that heareth you heareth Me; and he that despiseth you despiseth Me; and he that despiseth Me despiseth Him that sent Me.

Jesus is illustrating that if they fight you, they fight Him, and if they fight Him, they fight against God. i.e., he is telling them they are messengers representing God and any enmity against them is then enmity against God! they are God's army. It Continues in verse 17:

And the 70 returned again with joy, saying, LORD, even the DEVILS are SUBJECT unto us through THY name.

Satan had no power to stand against them by the faith that would be secured by the Cross of Christ. It was by the Power of Christ that the devils were subject to the Messengers of the lord. Christ, the Chief Messenger Michael who assuredly is God, was the reason that they could not stand against these messengers. The 70 Christ sent out rejoiced at this, and note "carefully" in the next verse, Christ's response to their Joy of their Victory over devils:

And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from Heaven."

Satan hadn't literally fallen out of the sky (heaven) Christ is signifying that he has been prevented from harming anyone in the Kingdom (Heaven). And that falling is exactly what the next verses of Revelation chapter 12 is referring to. That Satan now had no power over the army of God, and the kingdom of Heaven would go forth to the world because of it. Satan spiritually is cast out of it, and the bondage wherewith he held men would be broken by the Cross. the accuser would not be able to cast down the stars to the earth. This miracle of the 70 was a picture of what the finished work of Christ would do for the Church. It would destroy (bring Him down/Idle) Satan (Hebrews 2:14) so that the saints could be free from his bondage whereby he held death over them. Christ could now build His Church and the gates of Hell could not prevail over it as Satan is defeated, cast out, and bound that the Lord could free his prisoners or captives and build His Church. The same picture of Joy as the Woman being delivered of the man Child which Jesus talked about. It is a victory by the blood of the lamb as the Kingdom suffered violence, but Christ would bring it peace and Safety.

Hebrews 2:14 "..that through death, He might destroy him that hath the power of death, that is the devil, and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage".
That Greek word "destroy" there is [katargeo] and means to make idle or inactive down. To literally make vanish or void. We know Satan was not destroyed in the classic sense of the word as he still goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1st Peter 5:8), but the Kingdom of God is come and has been delivered from bondage to Him and secured from harm by that old serpent because of the Blood of the cross. In the symbolic sense of Revelation, Satan was cast out of heaven (the kingdom) making it secure. The Kingdom which suffered violence is delivered. Satan was the accuser of the brethren by sin, because he held them in bondage with the fear of death hanging over them. But Christ delivered us from that bondage by paying the wages of sin (death) and thus cast the accuser out. By the power of Christ is he conquered and as lightning fell from heaven. When Jesus told the 70 that He saw Satan as lightning (God's judgment) fall from heaven, this is what he was talking about. He saw the Victory of the cross that would destroy satan, cast him out of the Kingdom and thus keep the messengers of He who assuredly is God from harm. The scorpions and serpents were signifying Satan and all power of this enemy.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/rev12.html

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 8th 2008, 07:36 AM
Satan and his angels already fallen angels...
Ezekiel 28:12,17
12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
Isaiah 14:12-14


12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations! 13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=14&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-17942a)]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
Ephesians 2:2
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Firstfruits
Nov 8th 2008, 01:11 PM
Rev 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Angels in Heaven would not have been offered salvation as they were already in the place where we hope to be, but as it shows whether in Heaven or on earth sin has the same consequences, exclusion from Heaven.

Satan is a fallen angel and those that joined with Satan to fight against Jesus are also fallen angels.

If there are no fallen angels then Satan and his angels have not been cast out of Heaven which would contradict that which is written.

Sin is the reason why they were cast out of Heaven, so can sin prevent us from entering Heaven?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 8th 2008, 01:13 PM
Satan and his angels already fallen angels...
Ezekiel 28:12,17
12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
Isaiah 14:12-14


12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations! 13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=14&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-17942a)]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
Ephesians 2:2
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Thank you Shinchi Kudo,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 03:44 PM
Rev 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Angels in Heaven would not have been offered salvation as they were already in the place where we hope to be, but as it shows whether in Heaven or on earth sin has the same consequences, exclusion from Heaven.

Satan is a fallen angel and those that joined with Satan to fight against Jesus are also fallen angels.

If there are no fallen angels then Satan and his angels have not been cast out of Heaven which would contradict that which is written.

Sin is the reason why they were cast out of Heaven, so can sin prevent us from entering Heaven?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Where does Scripture tell us that Satan is an angel? Angel means messenger of God. Is there one place in Scripture that would confirm that Satan is or ever was a messenger of God? Scripture tells us "the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan was cast out"..."he and his messengers"...not angels, but demonic spirit messengers. Satan and his messengers are called false accusers, slanderers, the devil and deceivers, even able to transform themselves into "ministers of righteousness" (2Co 11:15), and Satan is able to make himself appear as a messenger of light (2Co 11:14). But to my knowledge there is not one passage of Scripture to confirm Satan is or ever was a messenger (angel) of God.

Firstfruits
Nov 8th 2008, 04:55 PM
Where does Scripture tell us that Satan is an angel? Angel means messenger of God. Is there one place in Scripture that would confirm that Satan is or ever was a messenger of God? Scripture tells us "the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan was cast out"..."he and his messengers"...not angels, but demonic spirit messengers. Satan and his messengers are called false accusers, slanderers, the devil and deceivers, even able to transform themselves into "ministers of righteousness" (2Co 11:15), and Satan is able to make himself appear as a messenger of light (2Co 11:14). But to my knowledge there is not one passage of Scripture to confirm Satan is or ever was a messenger (angel) of God.

Do you accept that Satan was cast out of Heaven with the angels that followed him? Meaning that being in Heaven does not mean that you are secure there if you sin.

If we can be cast out of Heaven because of sin, will sin exclude us from Heaven?

Knowing that we are lower than the angels do we expect to be treated any differently from those God cast out of Heaven because of sin?

Heb 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Heb 2:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Whatever Satan is there is no doubt that Satan was in Heaven and was cast out because of sin and the same for the angels that were with him.

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 05:17 PM
Do you accept that Satan was cast out of Heaven with the angels that followed him? Meaning that being in Heaven does not mean that you are secure there if you sin.

Satan, a demonic spirit, but not a messenger of God (angel) was cast out of heaven with other demonic spirits that followed him. If you read Rev 12 in context you find that this casting out occured at the birth of the New Testament church in history. This is a picture of Christ going there (heaven) after the cross to prepare a place for His people. This is all very sumbolic language.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Prior to being cast out of heaven, Satan stood before God accusing our brothers and sisters in Christ. Therefore Christ went there to remove Satan and his demonic host as proof that He was victorious on the cross, and had risen from the dead just as He promised He would.

Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Those being accused before God were OT saints, such as Job (Job 1:9), and Moses (Jude 1:9). These all died in faith, never having received the promise (Heb 11:39). But now that Christ has gone to the cross in victory, and arisen from the dead, all those OT saints can ascend (Eph 4:9,10) into heaven because Christ has prepared heaven for them and us too. Satan is cast out, so he can no longer accuse the faithful Christians before God as he once had before Christ was victorious at the cross and ressurected from the dead.

Since the cross the only thing that shall enter into the holy city of God that comes down out of heave are they which are written in the Lamb's Book of Life, and nothing that defiles, is abominable, or makes a lie.

Re 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 8th 2008, 05:38 PM
Satan, a demonic spirit, but not a messenger of God (angel) was cast out of heaven with other demonic spirits that followed him. If you read Rev 12 in context you find that this casting out occured at the birth of the New Testament church in history. This is a picture of Christ going there (heaven) after the cross to prepare a place for His people. This is all very sumbolic language.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Prior to being cast out of heaven, Satan stood before God accusing our brothers and sisters in Christ. Therefore Christ went there to remove Satan and his demonic host as proof that He was victorious on the cross, and had risen from the dead just as He promised He would.

Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Those being accused before God were OT saints, such as Job (Job 1:9), and Moses (Jude 1:9). These all died in faith, never having received the promise (Heb 11:39). But now that Christ has gone to the cross in victory, and arisen from the dead, all those OT saints can ascend (Eph 4:9,10) into heaven because Christ has prepared heaven for them and us too. Satan is cast out, so he can no longer accuse the faithful Christians before God as he once had before Christ was victorious at the cross and ressurected from the dead.

Since the cross the only thing that shall enter into the holy city of God that comes down out of heave are they which are written in the Lamb's Book of Life, and nothing that defiles, is abominable, or makes a lie.

Re 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Many Blessings,
RW

Satan was not alway sinful other wise he would not have been in Heaven where there is no sin.

Is 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Is 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Is 14:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Is 14:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

The angels that were cast out with him were not always sinful until they joined with Satan.

Rev 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,Rev 12:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

It was not until they had sinned that they were cast out.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 06:06 PM
Satan was not alway sinful other wise he would not have been in Heaven where there is no sin.

Is 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Is 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Is 14:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Is 14:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Firstfruits,

This passage in Isaiah when read in context speaks of the king of Babylon, a man, not a spirit being.

Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;



The angels that were cast out with him were not always sinful until they joined with Satan.

Angels are messengers of God. Why would God cast out His own spirit messengers? Those messengers cast out were messengers of Satan, not angels.

Angels is translated from the Greek word aggelos - from aggello (probably derived from 71; compare 34) (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:--angel, messenger.

As you can see by the definition the word translated angels in Rev 12 should have simply been translated messengers, then the context would show us whether these messengers were angels or spirit messengers of God, or human messengers of God such as John the Baptist, or whether they were some other kind of messengers, not of God at all, but belonging to Satan; i.e. his demonic hosts.

The devil is a murderer and liar from the beginning. There has never been a time in his existance when he did not sin.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



Rev 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,Rev 12:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


It was not until they had sinned that they were cast out.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 8th 2008, 06:18 PM
Firstfruits,

This passage in Isaiah when read in context speaks of the king of Babylon, a man, not a spirit being.

Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;



Angels are messengers of God. Why would God cast out His own spirit messengers? Those messengers cast out were messengers of Satan, not angels.

Angels is translated from the Greek word aggelos - from aggello (probably derived from 71; compare 34) (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:--angel, messenger.

As you can see by the definition the word translated angels in Rev 12 should have simply been translated messengers, then the context would show us whether these messengers were angels or spirit messengers of God, or human messengers of God such as John the Baptist, or whether they were some other kind of messengers, not of God at all, but belonging to Satan; i.e. his demonic hosts.

The devil is a murderer and liar from the beginning. There has never been a time in his existance when he did not sin.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Is the King of Babylon Lucifer?

Did the king of Babylon fight with Jesus in Heaven?

Was the king of babylon cast out of Heaven with his angels?

Did Satan not start in Heaven along with those that rebelled with him?

Has that which was in Heaven and sinned been cast out of Heaven?

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 06:27 PM
Is the King of Babylon Lucifer?

Did the king of Babylon fight with Jesus in Heaven?

Was the king of babylon cast out of Heaven with his angels?

Did Satan not start in Heaven along with those that rebelled with him?

Has that which was in Heaven and sinned been cast out of Heaven?

Firstfruits

Perhaps it would be helpful for you to do a little research yourself on the meaning of Lucifer. It seems you are very passionate, perhaps too emotional regarding this topic. So I doubt you will be open to receiving anything I have to say, since it has become clear that you have not accepted anything I have already offered. Perhaps you could ask yourself, why couldn't Satan have been in heaven with his demonic hosts before the cross? Is he not a spirit being, created by God?

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 8th 2008, 06:45 PM
Perhaps it would be helpful for you to do a little research yourself on the meaning of Lucifer. It seems you are very passionate, perhaps too emotional regarding this topic. So I doubt you will be open to receiving anything I have to say, since it has become clear that you have not accepted anything I have already offered. Perhaps you could ask yourself, why couldn't Satan have been in heaven with his demonic hosts before the cross? Is he not a spirit being, created by God?

Many Blessings,
RW

The thread is about "If angels can fall" which I believe you have agreed with in your last sentance, that if Satan and his angels were cast out of Heaven they are in fact fallen.

why couldn't Satan have been in heaven with his demonic hosts before the cross? Is he not a spirit being, created by God?

I understand what Lucifer means and he is described as being in Heaven before he was cast out of Heaven. The reason I asked concerning The king of Bablylon is that the King of Bablylon has not been cast out of Heaven.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 06:50 PM
The thread is about "If angels can fall" which I believe you have agreed with in your last sentance, that if Satan and his angels were cast out of Heaven they are in fact fallen.

why couldn't Satan have been in heaven with his demonic hosts before the cross? Is he not a spirit being, created by God?

I understand what Lucifer means and he is described as being in Heaven before he was cast out of Heaven. The reason I asked concerning The king of Bablylon is that the King of Bablylon has not been cast out of Heaven.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

To my knowledge there is not a single passage of Scripture to prove the assumption that God's messengers (angels) have ever fallen. I also do not believe you can biblically prove that Satan was ever an angel of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 8th 2008, 06:59 PM
To my knowledge there is not a single passage of Scripture to prove the assumption that God's messengers (angels) have ever fallen. I also do not believe you can biblically prove that Satan was ever an angel of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

If they have been cast out of Heaven, are they still in right standing with God or have they not fallen from His grace/salvation to be reserved for judgment and hell?

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 09:37 PM
If they have been cast out of Heaven, are they still in right standing with God or have they not fallen from His grace/salvation to be reserved for judgment and hell?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits, Satan and his messengers were never in right standing with God. Remember hell was created for the devil and his messengers (not angels). None of the spirit hosts of heaven were chosen to receive His grace in salvation. The Lords angels are His ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for those who are heirs of salvation, but they are not chosen to be His heirs...only humans were chosen, and only humans were created in His image.

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels [messengers]:

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

God created all things, including this one called serpent, the devil, the beast, demon, slanderer, accuser, satan etc. Therefore, since God is the Creator and He created this evil one, it is clear that God has a purpose for having created him. Evil and sin is permitted to exist to accomplish God's purpose in redeeming a people for Himself. As soon as the Kingdom of God is complete, then God will not longer have any purpose for satan or his messengers, then all sin and evil will be no more. You have to remember that sin and evil too, also declare the glory of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 8th 2008, 11:42 PM
Firstfruits, Satan and his messengers were never in right standing with God. Remember hell was created for the devil and his messengers (not angels). None of the spirit hosts of heaven were chosen to receive His grace in salvation. The Lords angels are His ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for those who are heirs of salvation, but they are not chosen to be His heirs...only humans were chosen, and only humans were created in His image.

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels [messengers]:

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

God created all things, including this one called serpent, the devil, the beast, demon, slanderer, accuser, satan etc. Therefore, since God is the Creator and He created this evil one, it is clear that God has a purpose for having created him. Evil and sin is permitted to exist to accomplish God's purpose in redeeming a people for Himself. As soon as the Kingdom of God is complete, then God will not longer have any purpose for satan or his messengers, then all sin and evil will be no more. You have to remember that sin and evil too, also declare the glory of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Before Satan was cast out of Heaven was he not in right standing with God?

God would not have allowed him to be in Heaven if he was not without sin in the first place.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 12:22 AM
Before Satan was cast out of Heaven was he not in right standing with God?

God would not have allowed him to be in Heaven if he was not without sin in the first place.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

Firstfruits,

Satan is a spirit being. Are you arguing on assumption, or can you show biblically that God did not allow Satan access to heaven? I showed you in another post how the devil accused the brethren BEFORE GOD. If he wasn't in heaven how did he accuse them before God?

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

High - epouranios - from 1909 and 3772; above the sky:--celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high.

3772 - ouranos - perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 9th 2008, 11:16 AM
Firstfruits,

Satan is a spirit being. Are you arguing on assumption, or can you show biblically that God did not allow Satan access to heaven? I showed you in another post how the devil accused the brethren BEFORE GOD. If he wasn't in heaven how did he accuse them before God?

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

High - epouranios - from 1909 and 3772; above the sky:--celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high.

3772 - ouranos - perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky.

Many Blessings,
RW

Satan and his angels had access to heaven until the war, then access was denied. Revelation 12:7-9;

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

We know that Satan had access to the precence of God in Heaven, Job 1:6,7; Job 2:1,2;

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1 Pet 5:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Access to Satan and his angels is now denied.

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

The accuser has been cast down.

Rev 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

I hope that answers your question.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

jesuslover1968
Nov 9th 2008, 04:36 PM
Rev 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Angels in Heaven would not have been offered salvation as they were already in the place where we hope to be, but as it shows whether in Heaven or on earth sin has the same consequences, exclusion from Heaven.

Satan is a fallen angel and those that joined with Satan to fight against Jesus are also fallen angels.

If there are no fallen angels then Satan and his angels have not been cast out of Heaven which would contradict that which is written.

Sin is the reason why they were cast out of Heaven, so can sin prevent us from entering Heaven?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yes, sin CAN prevent us from entering Heaven. But those of us who are saved have salvation and God doesn't see our sin anymore, all He sees is Jesus. It is really sad when you have absolutely no assurance that you are saved.
1 John 2


1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Gal. 3:19-22
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Heb. 8:5-10

5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

hebrews 9:10-15

10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:22-28
22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Jeremiah 31:32-34

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Firstfruits
Nov 9th 2008, 06:27 PM
Yes, sin CAN prevent us from entering Heaven. But those of us who are saved have salvation and God doesn't see our sin anymore, all He sees is Jesus. It is really sad when you have absolutely no assurance that you are saved.
1 John 2


1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Gal. 3:19-22
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Heb. 8:5-10

5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

hebrews 9:10-15

10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:22-28
22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Jeremiah 31:32-34

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Your last line says it all, for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

If after we have been forgiven of our sin we have committed, and we continue without sin, that is agreed, but if we then sin after we have been forgiven we need to confess our sin and repent that our sin is forgiven. If that were not so those in Christ would never have to worry about sinning and its consequences.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 9th 2008, 08:36 PM
Knowing that angels that once had access to Heaven no longer have a place in Heaven because of sin;

Rev 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Why should we expect any different judgment form God if we sin and our sin is not confessed and forgiven?

Did God spare Satan and his angels?

2 Pet 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Firstfruits

jesuslover1968
Nov 10th 2008, 03:22 PM
Your last line says it all, for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

If after we have been forgiven of our sin we have committed, and we continue without sin, that is agreed, but if we then sin after we have been forgiven we need to confess our sin and repent that our sin is forgiven. If that were not so those in Christ would never have to worry about sinning and its consequences.

Firstfruits

so you think because we HAVE to repent that we can lose our salvation? Is that what you are saying?

jesuslover1968
Nov 10th 2008, 03:27 PM
2 Pet 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

As I said in another post...context, context...really, this verse is talking about the UNSAVED...UNGODLY...NOT the righteous, excepting Noah and Lot, who GOD is able to save...well, READ THE WHOLE PASSAGE...;) :)
2 Peter 2


1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb

Firstfruits
Nov 10th 2008, 04:15 PM
As I said in another post...context, context...really, this verse is talking about the UNSAVED...UNGODLY...NOT the righteous, excepting Noah and Lot, who GOD is able to save...well, READ THE WHOLE PASSAGE...;) :)
2 Peter 2


1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb

When you read the whole passage it tells us that no one is safe in their sins, not even the angels that were cast out of heaven with Satan.

Rev 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Firstfruits

jesuslover1968
Nov 10th 2008, 04:22 PM
When you read the whole passage it tells us that no one is safe in their sins, not even the angels that were cast out of heaven with Satan.

Rev 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Firstfruits


Did it not even occur to you that angels and humans are NOT the same? We were not created the same. They were NOT offered salvation, we were.
That passage does not tell us that we are not safe. It tells those who are not saved that they are not safe.

Firstfruits
Nov 10th 2008, 04:38 PM
Did it not even occur to you that angels and humans are NOT the same? We were not created the same. They were NOT offered salvation, we were.
That passage does not tell us that we are not safe. It tells those who are not saved that they are not safe.

Can you tell me when humans went to heaven and and have been cast out with regards to the following scripture?

Jn 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Firstfruits

jesuslover1968
Nov 10th 2008, 04:51 PM
Can you tell me when humans went to heaven and and have been cast out with regards to the following scripture?

Jn 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Firstfruits

what is your point? If anything, it just proves mine further. We are not the same as angels, and never will be.

Firstfruits
Nov 10th 2008, 07:45 PM
what is your point? If anything, it just proves mine further. We are not the same as angels, and never will be.

It is true that men and angels are not the same, however Satan and the angels were cast out of Heaven because of sin, so there is one thing that affects all and that is sin, unless you have another reason why Satan and his angels were cast out of Heaven.

Sin caused a third of Gods angels to fall.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Nov 10th 2008, 08:25 PM
It is true that men and angels are not the same, however Satan and the angels were cast out of Heaven because of sin, so there is one thing that affects all and that is sin, unless you have another reason why Satan and his angels were cast out of Heaven.

Sin caused a third of Gods angels to fall.

Firstfruits


I had always heard that Angels did not have free will.

jesuslover1968
Nov 10th 2008, 09:31 PM
I had always heard that Angels did not have free will.


If angels didn't have free will, they wouldn't be able to fall. They DID fall, so they have free will.

jesuslover1968
Nov 10th 2008, 09:37 PM
It is true that men and angels are not the same, however Satan and the angels were cast out of Heaven because of sin, so there is one thing that affects all and that is sin, unless you have another reason why Satan and his angels were cast out of Heaven.

Sin caused a third of Gods angels to fall.

Firstfruits

Where angels and humans differ, PERTAINING TO SIN...is that humans were offered salvation, angels were not. :) Nowhere in scripture will you find an angel being offered salvation. Even the angels that fell are in chains of darkness until the judgement...
2 Peter 2:4-6
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
Jude 1:6-7
6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Notice that Sodom and Gomorrha and the fallen angels are used as examples for us to follow when we are UNGODLY....:)

Emanate
Nov 10th 2008, 09:45 PM
If angels didn't have free will, they wouldn't be able to fall. They DID fall, so they have free will.


So angels were free to worship God, or not. Thank you.

jesuslover1968
Nov 10th 2008, 09:57 PM
So angels were free to worship God, or not. Thank you.
yes. I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not, it's hard to tell sometimes...lol, but I will ask this question...does satan worship God, or does he worship himself?

Firstfruits
Nov 11th 2008, 08:51 AM
Where angels and humans differ, PERTAINING TO SIN...is that humans were offered salvation, angels were not. :) Nowhere in scripture will you find an angel being offered salvation. Even the angels that fell are in chains of darkness until the judgement...
2 Peter 2:4-6
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
Jude 1:6-7
6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Notice that Sodom and Gomorrha and the fallen angels are used as examples for us to follow when we are UNGODLY....:)

Angels did not need to be offered salvation, they were already in Heaven. For us to get to where they were we need salvation.

Sin will prevent us from entry to Heaven, just as sin exculded Satan and those that followed him.

Rev 21:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

jesuslover1968
Nov 12th 2008, 05:02 PM
Angels did not need to be offered salvation, they were already in Heaven. For us to get to where they were we need salvation.

Sin will prevent us from entry to Heaven, just as sin exculded Satan and those that followed him.

Rev 21:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Apparently you are missing the point entirely. Angels WOULD need to be offered salvation if they were to be saved after sin. That is what I am saying. They are not humans, nor were they ever meant to be treated like them.
in light of the verse above, how do you take these?

Romans 3:20-25
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 5:10-15

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2008, 07:56 PM
Where angels and humans differ, PERTAINING TO SIN...is that humans were offered salvation, angels were not. :) Nowhere in scripture will you find an angel being offered salvation. Even the angels that fell are in chains of darkness until the judgement...
2 Peter 2:4-6
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
Jude 1:6-7
6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Notice that Sodom and Gomorrha and the fallen angels are used as examples for us to follow when we are UNGODLY....:)

I have said before that the angels that fell were already in Heaven so they would not have been offered salvation, they were already in Heaven where our salvation will take us.

They are no longer in Heaven because they sinned, God did not spare those in his service because of sin, what can we in his service expect if we sin an repent not?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 13th 2008, 09:02 AM
Both Angels and those that believe and trust in Christ are Sons of God.

Job 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=38&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Jn 1:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rom 8:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Phil 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 Jn 3:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 Jn 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

If therefore we are Sons of God as were the Angels that were cast out of Heaven, we, as they did, can fall.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 16th 2008, 12:40 PM
Both Angels and those that believe and trust in Christ are Sons of God.

Job 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=38&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Jn 1:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rom 8:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Phil 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 Jn 3:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 Jn 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

If therefore we are Sons of God as were the Angels that were cast out of Heaven, we, as they did, can fall.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Satan and the angels that followed him chose to go against Gods will for this they were cast out of Heaven.

Where do we stand if we choose to go against Gods will?

If we sin, as did Satan and those that followed him, against the will of God?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 20th 2008, 03:26 PM
Satan and his angels already fallen angels...
Ezekiel 28:12,17
12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
Isaiah 14:12-14


12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations! 13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=14&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-17942a)]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
Ephesians 2:2
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Hi Shinichi,

As you have not been here that long we cannot as yet contact you, so thanks for the friendship offered.

God bless you!!!

Firstfruits