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leebee
Nov 7th 2008, 07:16 PM
Here's an example of faith that I recently came across that brings this question into perspective. Ask yourself if you could be so strong.

Would you ever renounce your faith?


Arise, O Lord! Do not let mere mortals defy you! Let the nations be judged in your presence.


Make them tremble in fear, O Lord. Let them know they are merely human.
Psalm 9:19-20 NLT





Forty matryrs

"History knows them as the 40 martyrs of Sebaste. They were soldiers in the famed Twelfth Legion of Rome's imperial army, around A.D. 320. One day the captain informed his troops that Emperor Licinius had sent down an edict commanding all soldiers to offer a sacrifice to his pagan god. Forty of the soldiers were followers of Christ, and they refused.

The emperor decided to make an example of the soldiers, so he marched them onto a frozen lake and stripped them of their clothes. "Renounce your God and you will be spared from death," he told them. Not one man came forward. Throughout the night the men stayed together, singing their song of victory: "Forty Martyrs for Christ."

When morning came, 39 of the men had frozen to death. The one survivor recanted his confession of faith. The officer in charge that night had been so moved by the scene that during his watch he'd come to Jesus, so he broke rank and walked out onto the ice. Stripping his clothes he openly confessed his faith in Christ. He refused to renounce his new faith. When the ordeal was over, the Roman soldiers carried 40 frozen men off of the ice.

In comparison, my life is like a long night on a soft mattress. I may one day be faced with serious consequences for my faith. You may, too. Will we have the strength of character and heart and faith to stand strong just the same?

Pray for strength that they may never overcome you.

Friend of I AM
Nov 7th 2008, 09:18 PM
Interesting piece. I don't know what I would do given those circumstances. I think it's difficult to determine what renouncing one's faith really means in the long run. Aside from an individual receiving God's mercy, I would say at some point we've all faltered in faith in our walks to the point where God may have considered us renouncing our faith in him. I think of Jonah, Peter, and examples of others in the bible who were dealt some difficult times, and were still able to get out of it not based on their ability to have faith, but instead on God's mercy. So perhaps those times where our faith is lacking are more demonstrative of God's love and faith for us, as oppossed to our faith and love for him.

leebee
Nov 7th 2008, 11:22 PM
I can't help but think of the people who have been kidnapped by the extreme muslim terrorists:( in the middle east over the course of the last couple of years. Prime example was Steve Cenetanni, the reporter from CNN. He was forced to renounce his faith as a Christian and convert to Islam while these guys held AK-47s (assult rifles) to his and his photographers head--Basically he had to accept Islam or die. He was put in the position of being a martyr and loved life at that moment instead of God. I can only imagine what was going thru his mind at the time. I honestly cannot tell you if I would have done it any different under the same circumstances. I mean we all say we believe in God, but if it came right down to the guillotine, can we all say that we would choose not to renounce God and let them cut our heads off. Talk about some persecution. I would like to believe that God would intervene in our moment of weakness and give us the strength to stand by our faith, and evert any harm that may come to his followers. I don't know, I just hope and pray that I am never put to that test. God bless.

daughter
Nov 7th 2008, 11:32 PM
I don't know... I know that before I was a Christian I was beaten up on several occasions for my beliefs, had a loaded shot gun shoved in my face, and I would never have renounced my beliefs then. It may be adrenalin. You know what could happen, but the world goes calm, and one step away. I've had broken bones, neck injuries, multiple arrests, etc, as a result of defending animals from hunts and vivisectors.

Really, I hope that God would give me the same, and greater, courage if it came to something of eternal consequence. Now that I'm a Christian, I feel vaguely like I've wasted my life hitherto. I don't think it's courage allowed me to take being beaten up like that... it's just grace. God gave me grace to stand up for what I genuinely believed was right. I know that in terms of eternity what I did isn't as important as sharing the gospel. But I do know that it's possible for a fallible human being like me to stand up for her principles.

If I could do it for a fox, or a guinea pig, or a partridge, I trust that God would give me grace to do it for Him.

It is never us who stands up for His name after all. It's always Him, who gives His children grace to bring glory and honour to His name.

chad
Nov 7th 2008, 11:54 PM
Well you could always renounce your faith for a day. Then when they go away, you would say "Ho Ho - Of course I don't renounce my faith, when I said it I didn't really mean it. The jokes on you sucker."

Of course you wouldn't tell them that or they might come back and put you on the ice again. But it doesn't stop you from re-establishing your faith again.



(Rev 2:12 NIV) "To the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword.

(Rev 2:13 NIV) I know where you live--where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city--where Satan lives.

(Rev 2:14 NIV) Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality.

(Rev 2:15 NIV) Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.

(Rev 2:16 NIV) Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.


Chad :rolleyes:



Here's an example of faith that I recently came across that brings this question into perspective. Ask yourself if you could be so strong.

Would you ever renounce your faith?


Arise, O Lord! Do not let mere mortals defy you! Let the nations be judged in your presence.



Make them tremble in fear, O Lord. Let them know they are merely human.
Psalm 9:19-20 NLT






Forty matryrs

"History knows them as the 40 martyrs of Sebaste. They were soldiers in the famed Twelfth Legion of Rome's imperial army, around A.D. 320. One day the captain informed his troops that Emperor Licinius had sent down an edict commanding all soldiers to offer a sacrifice to his pagan god. Forty of the soldiers were followers of Christ, and they refused.

The emperor decided to make an example of the soldiers, so he marched them onto a frozen lake and stripped them of their clothes. "Renounce your God and you will be spared from death," he told them. Not one man came forward. Throughout the night the men stayed together, singing their song of victory: "Forty Martyrs for Christ."

When morning came, 39 of the men had frozen to death. The one survivor recanted his confession of faith. The officer in charge that night had been so moved by the scene that during his watch he'd come to Jesus, so he broke rank and walked out onto the ice. Stripping his clothes he openly confessed his faith in Christ. He refused to renounce his new faith. When the ordeal was over, the Roman soldiers carried 40 frozen men off of the ice.

In comparison, my life is like a long night on a soft mattress. I may one day be faced with serious consequences for my faith. You may, too. Will we have the strength of character and heart and faith to stand strong just the same?

Pray for strength that they may never overcome you.

daughter
Nov 8th 2008, 12:07 AM
Well you could always renounce your faith for a day. Then when they go away, you would say "Ho Ho - Of course I don't renounce my faith, when I said it I didn't really mean it. The jokes on you sucker."

Of course you wouldn't tell them that or they might come back and put you on the ice again. But it doesn't stop you from re-establishing your faith again.

Just to clarify... I'm almost certain you're making a joke here... particularly given the verse you post next?

But remember... we're online. Sarcasm doesn't always translate.

So... this is sarcasm, isn't it?:hmm:

Ayala
Nov 8th 2008, 12:13 AM
If it isn't, that would be a terrible witness to the lost.

daughter
Nov 8th 2008, 12:17 AM
Well Jesus says "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." I hope and pray that God would keep that before me constantly, even if I was threatened with death.

When else are we supposed to stand up for Jesus, if not on those occasions when we are challenged to? It's easy to say "I love Jesus" when surrounded by folks who agree with us. It means nothing, it could just be peer pressure.

But to say it when you're despised or threatened for it... that is what counts.

Sorry Chad...

Because you quoted the story of Antipas, the faithful witness... it's obvious you meant to make a rhetorical point.

Richard H
Nov 8th 2008, 12:32 AM
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Jude 1:24,25

chad
Nov 8th 2008, 03:08 AM
Hi Daughter,

Yes, that was a joke in my previous post. I hope I didn't offend anyone.

Back on track. When the early church in Acts were being persucuted under Saul (Paul), it says all except the Apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

(Acts 8:1 NIV) And Saul was there, giving approval to his death. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

(Acts 8:2 NIV) Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him.

(Acts 8:3 NIV) But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.

(Acts 8:4 NIV) Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went.

Stephen died for the faith, but the other believers didn't have to. They scattered and this helped the church grow and spread into other regions.


In Revelation 2:8-11 Jesus says to the Angel of the Church in Smyrna .

(Rev 2:8 NIV) "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

(Rev 2:9 NIV) I know your afflictions and your poverty--yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

(Rev 2:10 NIV) Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

(Rev 2:11 NIV) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.


So thier reward was a crown of life, and everlasting life.

(Rev 2:12 NIV) "To the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword.
(Rev 2:13 NIV) I know where you live--where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city--where Satan lives.

(Rev 2:14 NIV) Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality.

(Rev 2:15 NIV) Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.

Even though the Church is Perganum, did not renounce thier faith, Jesus still had things against them as in Revelation 14:-15.


In regard to Revelation 2:10, If you did renounce your faith, I guess you fail the test?

But if you were faithful to death, you will be rewarded with a crown of life.

Bearing in mind that this was written to the Angel of the Church in Smyrna.


Chad :rolleyes:



Just to clarify... I'm almost certain you're making a joke here... particularly given the verse you post next?

But remember... we're online. Sarcasm doesn't always translate.

So... this is sarcasm, isn't it?:hmm:

BibleGirl02
Nov 8th 2008, 03:11 AM
No, I would never renounce my faith.

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 8th 2008, 07:41 AM
I won't renounce my faith...for the LORD Jesus Christ suffer so much on the cross to redeem me...

By grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of GOD; not the works lest any man should boast Ephesians 2:8-9

paradiseinn
Nov 8th 2008, 07:44 AM
I won't renounce my faith...for the LORD Jesus Christ suffer so much on the cross to redeem me...

By grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of GOD; not the works lest any man should boast Ephesians 2:8-9
:agree::thumbsup::amen:
EXACTLY!!!!

Friend of I AM
Nov 8th 2008, 02:43 PM
I think there are some good points that have been made in here. Just wanted to add that it is important to remember that God is as righteous as he is merciful. The Apostle Paul is an excellent example of someone who essentially was a man working against God, who was used by God to do glorious things. I think we all need to be careful on coming to automatic conclusions of who God will have mercy on given the circumstances. Who really knows the depths of his Love? It's hard to say what will happen to each man in the end, until we've really witnessed it ourselves. I don't know what will happen in the end as I haven't reached the finish line yet. If we are really of God, our hope should be that we see as many people as possible reach that finish line - transformed to the complete righteous/loving image of God full of compassion/mercy/and justice.

In Christian Love,

Stephen

leebee
Nov 8th 2008, 04:24 PM
I was beaten up on several occasions for my beliefs, had a loaded shot gun shoved in my face,... I've had broken bones, neck injuries, multiple arrests, etc, as a result of defending animals from hunts and vivisectors.


If I could do it for a fox, or a guinea pig, or a partridge, I trust that God would give me grace to do it for Him.


Daughter, I have a question, And in no way do I mean to offend here But I cannot understand why a human would risk their life for any animal? I love animals myself and I have trained dogs throughout my life. I'm a member of the St.Petersburg kennel club, as well as the American kennel club. I've owned birds, iguanas, ferrets, hamsters(when I was a child), and probabley other animals that I can't think of right now. Point being -I love animals, however, I would have never put my life or any one elses in jepardy for them. Didn't God put us in charge of them to use at our own discretion? I'm not advocating cruelty by any means but I'm ok with hunting for food. If someone wants to hunt for sport thats too bad, but again I would not take a shotgun in the face for a bird or a guinea pig, fox, or any other animal by any means, I would pray that God judges them(the shotgun holders) not too harshley for they know not what they do. This is one of the problems that I have With PETA, they seem to put animals above humans. To me this is an offense aginst our Lord and his creation. Again no offence, really:), just something I can't understand. God bless you for your kind heart, truely.

always
Nov 8th 2008, 04:48 PM
I think on the disciples, the night they arrested Jesus, they lived, slept, walked and ministered with HIM and loved HIM. Peter, stated firmly HE would be there with him.

But when times got hard, when the flesh was attacked by fear

Matt 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.



Our ultimate sacrifice is to give our lives to him through repentence, the soldier that recounted his confession, had only to repent.

I believe in my heart that Jesus is Lord, and HE knows my heart

leebee
Nov 8th 2008, 05:07 PM
I believe in my heart that Jesus is Lord, and HE knows my heart


Very encouraging I don't know why, but I had forgotten about Peter. Along with the Lord knowing our hearts He has to know that we are only Human and not perfect. Thanks for the input Always. God bless.:hug:

Richard H
Nov 8th 2008, 05:08 PM
I think on the disciples, the night they arrested Jesus, they lived, slept, walked and ministered with HIM and loved HIM. Peter, stated firmly HE would be there with him.

But when times got hard, when the flesh was attacked by fear

Matt 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.



Our ultimate sacrifice is to give our lives to him through repentence, the soldier that recounted his confession, had only to repent.

I believe in my heart that Jesus is Lord, and HE knows my heart
Amen. God does know your heart.

And we should remember that it was Peter who got out of the boat and tried to walk to Jesus.
When Peter denied Jesus, the Holy Spirit had not come upon him yet.

We now have the Spirit of Christ and He will enable us to do that which is our calling.
He is able to keep His lambs and not let us totally fall.
Especially not in such a crucial moment which will bring glory to God.

always
Nov 8th 2008, 05:40 PM
Amen. God does know your heart.

And we should remember that it was Peter who got out of the boat and tried to walk to Jesus.
When Peter denied Jesus, the Holy Spirit had not come upon him yet.

We now have the Spirit of Christ and He will enable us to do that which is our calling.
He is able to keep His lambs and not let us totally fall.
Especially not in such a crucial moment which will bring glory to God.


Have to give you an Amen, Richard!

minnesotaice
Nov 10th 2008, 12:13 PM
I don't think anyone knows what they are going to do until it happens. That is why we need to pray continuously that the Lord will strengthen our faith. The martyrs who survived torture have stated that God gave them something miraculous to get them through what they went through.

Read the book "Tortured for Christ" by Richard Wurmbrand. The details of what happened to him are shocking but the book has a message of hope. He talks about indescribable things that happened to him but also talks about how the Lord got him through years of torture.

The truth is that in our lifetime, this could happen in America, we just don't know. We need to have our faith built up now.

manichunter
Nov 10th 2008, 11:39 PM
How could I, I do that often everyday whenever I lack trust in the small things, hence how is it any different than any other time when I fell to trust.

Richard H
Nov 11th 2008, 12:35 AM
I don't think anyone knows what they are going to do until it happens. That is why we need to pray continuously that the Lord will strengthen our faith. The martyrs who survived torture have stated that God gave them something miraculous to get them through what they went through.

Read the book "Tortured for Christ" by Richard Wurmbrand. The details of what happened to him are shocking but the book has a message of hope. He talks about indescribable things that happened to him but also talks about how the Lord got him through years of torture.

The truth is that in our lifetime, this could happen in America, we just don't know. We need to have our faith built up now.That's very encouraging that God will strengthen us as needed.

And yes! Whether it is near or not -we should all be seeking to trust God even more and believing that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
(Hebrews 11:6)