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pinky
Nov 8th 2008, 04:50 AM
Luk 23:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=23&v=6&t=KJV#comm/5)And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirreth up the people, teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place.
6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=23&v=6&t=KJV#comm/6)When Pilate heard of Galilee, he asked whether the man were a Galilaean.
7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=23&v=6&t=KJV#comm/7)And as soon as he knew that he belonged unto Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who himself also was at Jerusalem at that time.



Luk 3:1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,





Jesus comes from Nazareth which is in Galilee......

Mar 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan


Jesus first preached the Gospel in Galilee......


Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.


Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,



Jesus performed His first miracles in Galilee.....

Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.


Jesus called His deciples from the 'sea of Galilee'.

Mat 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus sought rest and refuge in Galilee.

Mat 15:29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=15&v=29&t=KJV#29)And Jesus departed from thence, and came nigh unto the sea of Galilee; and went up into a mountain, and sat down there.


Jhn 7:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=7&v=1&t=KJV#1)After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.



After Jesus rose from the dead He appeared to the apostles in Galilee.


Mat 26:32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.


Mat 28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.


Mat 28:10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.




Mat 28:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=28&v=16&t=KJV#16)Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

Kahtar
Nov 8th 2008, 05:24 AM
Seems like you answered your own question. Beyond that, I don't really see the point of your post. Perhaps you can add to it a bit.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 8th 2008, 08:58 AM
I think pinky meant it as a reponse to this thread. Pinky, you might want to repost this there. If that's what you meant, anyway. :D

pinky
Nov 8th 2008, 03:37 PM
Thanks Luke.

:)

diffangle
Nov 8th 2008, 08:41 PM
He was an Israelite from the region of Galilee, like your a Nova Scotian who is Canadian or I'm a Texan who is American... He was a Galilaean who was an Israelite.

pinky
Nov 8th 2008, 09:52 PM
Hi Diffangle.


I see what your saying. Yes, I agree with your point http://www.bible-history.com/maps/galilee_north_palestine.html


Don't you find it interesting though that Jesus was raised in Galilee, started His ministry there, performed His first miracles there, found His first followers there, called His diciples out of the 'sea of Galilee', called His apostles the 'men of Galilee', they were 'appointed' on a mountain in Galilee.......... and He appeared to His deciples in Galilee when He rose from the dead?



Jhn 7:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=7&v=1&t=KJV#1)After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

diffangle
Nov 8th 2008, 10:02 PM
Hi Diffangle.


I see what your saying. Yes, I agree with your point http://www.bible-history.com/maps/galilee_north_palestine.html


Don't you find it interesting though that Jesus was raised in Galilee, started His ministry there, performed His first miracles there, found His first followers there, called His diciples out of the 'sea of Galilee', called His apostles the 'men of Galilee', they were 'appointed' on a mountain in Galilee.......... and He appeared to His deciples in Galilee when He rose from the dead?



Jhn 7:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=7&v=1&t=KJV#1)After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.
Sorry, I'm not sure what's suppossed to be interesting about it. :confused

Fenris
Nov 8th 2008, 10:40 PM
Pinky doesn't think Jesus was Jewish.

pinky
Nov 8th 2008, 10:47 PM
Pinky doesn't think Jesus was Jewish.

Define "Jewish".

ConqueredbyLove
Nov 8th 2008, 10:47 PM
Pinky...

Please see my last reply to you on the thread whether the land was called Israel or Palestine.

diffangle
Nov 8th 2008, 10:52 PM
Pinky doesn't think Jesus was Jewish.
Ahhh, I see. Never mind His lineage laid out in Scripture and I guess Bethlehem isn't part of Judea nor did He teach and live by His Father's Word/Torah. :hmm:


Define "Jewish".
How about you define "Jewish" instead? ;)

pinky
Nov 9th 2008, 11:44 AM
Ahhh, I see. Never mind His lineage laid out in Scripture and I guess Bethlehem isn't part of Judea nor did He teach and live by His Father's Word/Torah. :hmm:


How about you define "Jewish" instead? ;)




I will allow fenris to define 'jewish'.

pinky
Nov 9th 2008, 11:58 AM
Pinky...

Please see my last reply to you on the thread whether the land was called Israel or Palestine.

Hello :).

I read your reply and I agree for the most part. There are other ancient historians who refer to the region as Palestine.

However, I see that Jesus was a resident of Nazereth which was in Galilee.


God bless in Christ,
pinky

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 01:14 PM
However, I see that Jesus was a resident of Nazereth which was in Galilee.


And I am a resident of New York, which is in the United States.

I am also Jewish. Just as Jesus was.

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 01:18 PM
I will allow fenris to define 'jewish'.You will? That's awfully nice of you!:lol:

A Jew is anyone who is descended, on their mother's side, from Abraham, through Isaac and Jacob or one who converts and accepts the covenant.

I think we're more interested in your definition though, since you seem to be taking pains to make sure Jesus is not included.

diffangle
Nov 9th 2008, 02:03 PM
Hello :).

I read your reply and I agree for the most part. There are other ancient historians who refer to the region as Palestine.

You and CBL seem to be overlooking the question of why Palestine isn't mentioned in the Scriptures... why is the land called Israel in the Scriptures? The Scriptures are older writings than any of your historians.



However, I see that Jesus was a resident of Nazereth which was in Galilee.....

..... and Galilee was in Israel.

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 02:39 PM
Incidentally, pinky, you're in good company in believing that Jesus wasn't Jewish. Here's someone else who believed that:


... the Galilean, who later was called the Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who took up His position against Jewry. Galilee was a colony where the Romans had probably installed Gallic legionaries, and it's certain that Jesus was not a Jew....

Who said this? Adolf Hitler.

pinky
Nov 9th 2008, 03:01 PM
You and CBL seem to be overlooking the question of why Palestine isn't mentioned in the Scriptures... why is the land called Israel in the Scriptures? The Scriptures are older writings than any of your historians.

I think the point in the other thread is that many have refered to the region as Palestine for many hundreds of years.........so.........for a history book to say that Jesus was a Palestinian is likely based on this premise.



and Galilee was in Israel.


From Strong's
Galilee = "Circuit"
1) the name of a region of northern Palestine, bounded on the north by Syria, on the west by Sidon, Tyre, Ptolemais and their territories and the promontory of Carmel, on the south by Samaria and on the east by the Jordan. It was divided into Upper Galilee and Lower Galilee.



Also, just to note.....


Strong's

Old Testament (Hebrew) for "palestine (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/lexiconc.cfm?ss=palestine)"H6429 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H6429) Pĕlesheth pel·eh'·sheth Palestina, Philistia, Philistine, Palestine

Philistia = "land of sojourners"
1) the general territory on the west coast of Canaan or the entire country of Palestine



Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 8
AV (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H6429#) — Palestina (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Palestina*+H6429) 3, Philistia (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria= Philistia*+H6429) 3, Philistine (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria= Philistine*+H6429) 1, Palestine (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria= Palestine*+H6429) 1




Joe 3:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Joe&c=3&v=4&t=KJV#4)Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon , and all the coasts 1552 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1552&t=KJV) of Palestine 6429 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6429&t=KJV)? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head ;



What's interesting in this verse is that 'coasts'1552 is translated as.........

1) circuit, boundary, territory
Galilee = "circuit, district"
2) a territory in Naphtali largely occupied by heathen; a circuit of towns around Kedesh-Naphtali, in which were situated the 20 towns given by Solomon to Hiram king of Tyre as payment for his work in conveying timber from Lebanon to Jerusalem


Mat 4:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=4&v=15&t=KJV#15)The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 03:22 PM
It's pretty funny that the NT goes through such lengths to prove that Jesus was descended from king David and yet somehow he wasn't Jewish...

Dani H
Nov 9th 2008, 03:26 PM
It's pretty funny that the NT goes through such lengths to prove that Jesus was descended from king David and yet somehow he wasn't Jewish...

He was Buddhist, dontcha know? :)

pinky
Nov 9th 2008, 03:30 PM
Incidentally, pinky, you're in good company in believing that Jesus wasn't Jewish. Here's someone else who believed that:



Who said this? Adolf Hitler.

LOL.

I get a chuckle out of the way you play the 'hitler card'.


If Jewish means from the tribe of Judah, then yes, in this regard Jesus would be Jewish. However, there are other definitions of Jewish that do not apply to Christ.

napsnsnacks
Nov 9th 2008, 03:37 PM
I've always had the impression that Jesus, as far as "where are you from" goes, He was a Bethlehemmian or a Bethlehemmite. Lol.

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 03:48 PM
LOL.

I get a chuckle out of the way you play the 'hitler card'.
It doesn't bother you that one of your opinions on Jesus was shared by a genocidal madman who used that opinion to commit genocide? It should....


If Jewish means from the tribe of Judah, then yes, in this regard Jesus would be Jewish. Actually, 'Jewish doesn't just mean 'from the tribe of Judah'. For example, Mordecai in the book of Esther is referred to as 'a Jewish man' even though the very same verse tells us he was from the tribe of Benjamin.

However, there are other definitions of Jewish that do not apply to Christ.Really? Do tell us those other definitions...

Kahtar
Nov 9th 2008, 03:53 PM
Let's see. Jesus was born of Jewish parents according to the flesh. His lineage was of David and Abraham.
He grew up in a Jewish home, listened and learned the religion of the Jews, and lived according to the teaching of the Word of God and the laws of the nation of Israel, of which Galilee was a part.
From my perspective, that makes Him Jewish by blood, by religion, and by national heritage. Can't get much more Jewish than that.
Of course some view 'Judaism' as a separate religion from Christianity, and this I think is where this 'Jesus not being a Jew' comes from.
Others, correctly I might add, view Judaism as the root of Christianity, and that we are grafted into that same root............

pinky
Nov 9th 2008, 03:57 PM
Yes, absolutely He was born in Bethlehem of Judea, the city of David......


Luk 2:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=2&v=4&t=KJV#4)And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)


But He lived most of His earthly life as a resident of the province of Galilee, not Judea...........which I find interesting..........even if others don't. :)

One of the definitions of Jew is a Judean, which was a resident of the territory of Judea.

The semantics of the word Jew can be a bit of a labyrinth me thinks.

pinky
Nov 9th 2008, 04:05 PM
If someone is Jewish by religion......... do they follow the pharisaic traditions?

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 04:06 PM
Yes, absolutely He was born in Bethlehem of Judea, the city of David......


Luk 2:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=2&v=4&t=KJV#4)And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)


But He lived most of His earthly life as a resident of the province of Galilee, not Judea...........which I find interesting..........even if others don't. :)

One of the definitions of Jew is a Judean, which was a resident of the territory of Judea.
Well again, Mordecai is referred to as a 'Jewish man' even though he never lived in Judea or indeed in Israel at all. He lived in Persia. And that's biblical.


The semantics of the word Jew can be a bit of a labyrinth me thinks.

When it helps make your case, a word can mean anything you want. :lol:

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 04:07 PM
If someone is Jewish by religion......... do they follow the pharisaic traditions?
Well, they should.

Didn't Jesus tell his followers to obey the rabbis?

pinky
Nov 9th 2008, 04:25 PM
Does the Jewish religion follow the talmud and other rabbinic texts?

napsnsnacks
Nov 9th 2008, 04:41 PM
Let's see. Jesus was born of Jewish parents according to the flesh.

That isn't exactly correct.

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 04:42 PM
Does the Jewish religion follow the talmud and other rabbinic texts?Jews are supposed to. But one can be a Jew and not follow them, of course...

Richard H
Nov 9th 2008, 04:45 PM
I was born an American.
Should I go elsewhere on this planet, I will still be an American.

How much more will a Jew born of Jewish lineage, of the house of Judah and born in judiah, in Bethlehem, the city of David - remain a Jew?

Speaking of the article: (in the other thread) :blush:
To say that Jesus is Palestinian is to (even unknowingly) claim that He is not the Christ.
The Messiah comes from one bloodline, and the lineage of Esau is not it!

Jesus is not an Amalekite!
His lineage is as a Jew - from the house of Judah and from the whole house of Israel.

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 04:50 PM
Pinky, you'll notice my definition of 'Jew', above, has nothing to do with who if followed or what one believes. So why do you persist in this line of questioning?

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 04:52 PM
Another interesting use of the word 'Jew' in the bible:

Zachariah 8:23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"

napsnsnacks
Nov 9th 2008, 05:01 PM
For those who haven't noticed, Jesus ancestry/genealogy through Joseph is listed but since Joseph was Jesus father by adoption it's more of a who list than a genetic list:

MT 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
MT 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
MT 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
MT 1:4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
MT 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
MT 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
MT 1:7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
MT 1:8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
MT 1:9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
MT 1:10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
MT 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
MT 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
MT 1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
MT 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
MT 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
MT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
MT 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

So, Jesus ancestry is by adoption on Josephs side going back to David because Jesus father was the Holy Spirit and since no ancestry is listed for Mary, Jesus ancestry on her side is only implied.

I have been told that is the main reason that Jews reject Christ is because according to Jewish rules, the line of Jewish-ness follows the father and not the mother.

pinky
Nov 9th 2008, 05:03 PM
Point being that many claim Jesus was a 'religious Jew',ie, that He followed the religion of Judaism.

This is not true.

Judaism is not the OT religion, it is the religion of the pharisees.

So in this religious context, Jesus was definately not 'Jewish'.

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 05:21 PM
I have been told that is the main reason that Jews reject Christ is because according to Jewish rules, the line of Jewish-ness follows the father and not the mother.
You were told wrong.

Tribal affiliation follows the father. Jewishness, or lack thereof, follows the mother.

Anyway, Jews don't reject Jesus because of his lineage. But that's a whole different topic.

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 05:23 PM
Point being that many claim Jesus was a 'religious Jew',ie, that He followed the religion of Judaism.

I never said he was a religious Jew. I said he was a Jew. And since his mother was Jewish, he certainly was Jewish himself.

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 05:30 PM
I'd like to say something if I could please.

I think much confusion comes into discussions such as this because of a couple of things.

It is my understanding that a Jew is a Jew by blood/birth/lineage. They may or may not be an observant or religious Jew. In fact, a Jew could become a Christians (or a Budhist or whatever) and STILL be a Jew by definition of race/ethnicity.

There are people who live in Isreal today who are NOT Jews. There are Jews who love all ovet the world and they are STILL Jews.

It has little or nothing to do with geography and far more to do with
ancestry and lineage, at least in the world as we know it today.

Does that make sense and is it correct?
V

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 05:36 PM
It is my understanding that a Jew is a Jew by blood/birth/lineage. They may or may not be an observant or religious Jew. In fact, a Jew could become a Christians (or a Budhist or whatever) and STILL be a Jew by definition of race/ethnicity.
...

It has little or nothing to do with geography and far more to do with
ancestry and lineage, at least in the world as we know it today.

Not only is it true today, it has always been so.

Richard H
Nov 9th 2008, 05:55 PM
I'd like to say something if I could please.

I think much confusion comes into discussions such as this because of a couple of things.

It is my understanding that a Jew is a Jew by blood/birth/lineage. They may or may not be an observant or religious Jew. In fact, a Jew could become a Christians (or a Budhist or whatever) and STILL be a Jew by definition of race/ethnicity.

There are people who live in Isreal today who are NOT Jews. There are Jews who love all ovet the world and they are STILL Jews.

It has little or nothing to do with geography and far more to do with
ancestry and lineage, at least in the world as we know it today.

Does that make sense and is it correct?
V

Exactamundo! :)

pinky
Nov 9th 2008, 05:56 PM
What about the Khazar nation that converted to Judaism around 800 AD and they and their descendents have since been called 'Jews'.

Or the Edomites that lived in Judea and converted to Judaism and afterward were known as Jews according to Josephus?


What proof do we have that everyone today who is identified as a Jew is really a descendent of ancient Israel?

And more importantly, should Christians put their faith or trust in Abrahamic genealogies?

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 06:01 PM
I don't think Christians are to "be" Jews in the religious sense. Once we become Christians, we are to be one in Christ regardless of our ethnicity. We can keep our traditions if they honor God but beyond that, our citizenship is in heaven.

That's one of the things that bugs me about America. Yes, I am American but I am a Christian first and foremost and only an ambassador of Christ residing in America, This, plainly spoken, ain't home.

Richard H
Nov 9th 2008, 06:02 PM
What about the Khazar nation that converted to Judaism around 800 AD and they and their descendents have since been called 'Jews'.

Or the Edomites that lived in Judea and converted to Judaism and afterward were known as Jews according to Josephus?


What proof do we have that everyone today who is identified as a Jew is really a descendent of ancient Israel?


And more importantly, should Christians put their faith or trust in Abrahamic genealogies?In order of points:
Conversions have nothing to do with it.
What has that got to do with Jesus?
That is one of the things which convinced me the Bible is trustworthy.
If the Bible is not trustworthy - then what hope do we have?

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 06:13 PM
What about the Khazar nation that converted to Judaism around 800 AD and they and their descendents have since been called 'Jews'.Judaism accepts converts

But there are no surviving descendants of the Khazars that we are aware of.


Or the Edomites that lived in Judea and converted to Judaism and afterward were known as Jews according to Josephus?Well, what about them? Again, Judaism accepts converts. And it's a good think too, because king David is descended from a convert- Ruth.



What proof do we have that everyone today who is identified as a Jew is really a descendent of ancient Israel? Ah. well, this is a contemporary problem. During the middle ages, all Jews were 'known' to be descended from the mob who said "His blood be on us and on our children". Today, of course, when these same people try to return to their homeland we doubt they are descended form those people. They are impostors stealing land from it's rightful owners.

So who they are descended from depends on which crime you're trying to pin on them, I guess...:hmm:


And more importantly, should Christians put their faith or trust in Abrahamic genealogies?

I'll leave this question for a Christian to answer.

pinky
Nov 9th 2008, 06:18 PM
Hi Richard,

Approximately 80% of Jews today are ethnically 'ashkenazi'.........


Gen 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah



Many historians claim the Ashkenazi are descendents of the Khazar's.

I'll let inquiring minds explore that subject for themselves.


God bless Richard,
pinky

Richard H
Nov 9th 2008, 06:31 PM
Hi Richard,

Approximately 80% of Jews today are ethnically 'ashkenazi'.........


Gen 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah



Many historians claim the Ashkenazi are descendents of the Khazar's.

I'll let inquiring minds explore that subject for themselves.


God bless Richard,
pinkyHi Pinky, :)

I'm no expert on the Ashkenazi.
But it still has nothing to do with Jesus.

I am concerned though, about not trusting the lineage outlined in the Bible.

Richard

RoadWarrior
Nov 9th 2008, 06:31 PM
...

And more importantly, should Christians put their faith or trust in Abrahamic genealogies?

I think you already know the answer to this one. Our faith is in God, not in genealogies. The God in whom our faith resides is the same God believed in by faithful Jews since the time of Abraham.

There should be no hatred of Jews from anyone who is a true follower of Christ. Whether or not we agree on points of doctrine, we count each other as brothers and sisters. Why not the Jews also, since without them we would not have known to expect Jesus to show up in the first place?

There is a movie I'll recommend to you, it is "Constantine's Sword" which came out in 2007, directed by Oren Jacoby. Christians do not hate Jews naturally, it is something that has been manipulated into history. Jews and Christians have a common enemy, the same one who hates God hates both of us. This enemy has no qualms about inserting himself into the most famous of churches to do his dark deeds.



CONSTANTINE’S SWORD, by Oscar-nominated documentarian Oren Jacoby, is an astonishing exploration of the dark side of Christianity, following acclaimed author and former priest James Carroll on a journey of remembrance and reckoning.


George Santayana wrote "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

We do well to study history as well as our Bibles, and make better choices in our behaviors than our ancestors have done.

pinky
Nov 9th 2008, 06:40 PM
Hi Pinky, :)

I am concerned though, about not trusting the lineage outlined in the Bible.

Richard

Just to be clear with you Richard, I DO trust that Christ is of the lineage that scripture claims Him to be, ie, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, Judah.

This lineage is designed to prove He is Messiah. This has been accomplished.

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 06:42 PM
Hi Richard,

Approximately 80% of Jews today are ethnically 'ashkenazi'.........


Gen 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah


Ashkenazi Jews are not descended from Ashkenaz. They are Jews who lived in central or eastern Europe. In Yiddish, 'Ashkenaz' means 'Germany', just as 'Sephard' mean 'Spanish'. Sephardic Jews are not descended from someone named 'Sephard' :lol:



Many historians claim the Ashkenazi are descendents of the Khazar's.Unfortunately, there's not a shred of historical evidence to back that up.

Genetic testing shows that Ashkenazic and Sperhardic Jews are the two groups in the world that are closest genetically. Essentially, a Jew from the middle east is closer genetically to an Ashkenazi Jew than he is to an arab.

Richard H
Nov 9th 2008, 06:44 PM
Just to be clear with you Richard, I DO trust that Christ is of the lineage that scripture claims Him to be, ie, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, Judah.

This lineage is designed to prove He is Messiah. This has been accomplished.That's great to hear, Pinky! :pp

pinky
Nov 9th 2008, 07:13 PM
That's great to hear, Pinky! :pp

In Christ our Lord brother Richard.

:)

pinky
Nov 9th 2008, 08:13 PM
"At the present time we know of no nation under the heavens where Christians do not live. For [Christians are even found] in the lands of Gog and Magog -- who are a Hunnic race and are called Gazari (Khazars)... circumcized and observing all [the laws of] Judaism. The Bulgars, however, who are of the same seven tribes [as the Khazars], are now becoming baptized ." - Christian of Stavelot, in [I]Expositio in Matthaeum Evangelistam, composed circa 864

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 08:56 PM
"At the present time we know of no nation under the heavens where Christians do not live. For [Christians are even found] in the lands of Gog and Magog -- who are a Hunnic race and are called Gazari (Khazars)... circumcized and observing all [the laws of] Judaism. The Bulgars, however, who are of the same seven tribes [as the Khazars], are now becoming baptized ." - Christian of Stavelot, in [I]Expositio in Matthaeum Evangelistam, composed circa 864No one disputes that these people existed. But no serious historian believes than Ashkenazic Jews are descended form them.

Fenris
Nov 9th 2008, 09:09 PM
From Wikipedia-


Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have largely disproven the Khazar origin theory for the vast majority of Jews, including the Ashkenazi.

A 1999 study by Hammer et al, published in the Proceedings of the United States National Academy of Sciences compared the Y chromosomes of Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian Jews with 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. It found that "Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level... The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora." According to Nicholas Wade "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism."

napsnsnacks
Nov 10th 2008, 06:36 AM
Here's one y'all can chew on:

If converting to or adopting the religious doctrines of the Jews makes one a Jew then one who adopts or converts to Christianity also becomes a Jew because Jesus was Jewish and preached the Christian gospel and laid that down as the path for all people.

Hhhmmm?

napsnsnacks
Nov 10th 2008, 07:15 AM
GAL 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
GAL 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
GAL 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
GAL 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Fenris
Nov 10th 2008, 12:21 PM
If converting to or adopting the religious doctrines of the Jews makes one a Jew then one who adopts or converts to Christianity also becomes a Jew because Jesus was Jewish and preached the Christian gospel and laid that down as the path for all people.

Hhhmmm?
Jesus preached Jewish ethics, but he didn't preach Jewish doctrine.

daughter
Nov 10th 2008, 12:28 PM
Ashkenazi Jews are not descended from Ashkenaz. They are Jews who lived in central or eastern Europe. In Yiddish, 'Ashkenaz' means 'Germany', just as 'Sephard' mean 'Spanish'. Sephardic Jews are not descended from someone named 'Sephard' :lol:
Unfortunately, there's not a shred of historical evidence to back that up.

Genetic testing shows that Ashkenazic and Sperhardic Jews are the two groups in the world that are closest genetically. Essentially, a Jew from the middle east is closer genetically to an Ashkenazi Jew than he is to an arab.
Quite... By that logic, any Jew who lived in England and called themselves an "English Jew" would suddenly be descended from Angles, rather than Hebrews... and I think we can agree that this isn't exactly a sensible assumption.

German Jews are not descended from Ashkenaz, whatever language they happen to say the word "German" in. :rolleyes:

pinky
Nov 10th 2008, 05:26 PM
Hello Fenris.


Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have largely disproven the Khazar origin theory for the vast majority of Jews, including the Ashkenazi.

I don't want to start getting into a debate about DNA studies, because these are not conclusive, are reliant on new techniques and as well new research is finding new DNA markers.


Hebrew University geneticist Howard Cedar-"... even though Y chromosomes are considered the best tool for tracing genetic heritage, researchers still don't know what the history is behind the variations. As a result, it is difficult to draw conclusions about genetic affinity.."


Batsheva Bonne-Tamir, a Tel Aviv University geneticist- "the techniques were new and that until the human genome is mapped, it will be difficult to be certain about the conclusions."


Scientists don't agree on all points...



Lea Winerman. "Is Being Jewish All in the Genes?" New Voices: National Jewish Student Magazine 9:3 (January 2001): 8-13. Excerpt:

"The studies of the past several years have provided fascinating insights into Jewish history, but they've hardly closed the book on the question of modern Jews' ancestry. Right now, two separate research groups are taking a more in-depth look at the origins and migration patterns of Eastern European Jews. Michael Hammer and Harry Ostrer are leading one study; Dr. Vivian Moses and Dr. Neil || Bradman are conducting the other at the Center for Genetic Anthropology at University College-London. Vivian Moses suggests that the results of his study might diverge somewhat from what Hammer and his colleagues presented last June. 'I think perhaps we are using more DNA markers than they did,' he says, 'and therefore the results might not be exactly the same. We already have some preliminary indications of a link between [Eastern European Jews and] Slavs.'"




"The Jewish World: This Week in Israel." Global Jewish Agenda (Jewish Agency for Israel, November 22, 2001). Excerpts:

"A new study by the Hebrew University in Jerusalem reveals: the Kurds are the people closest to the Jews genetically. Scientists who carried out the study, including Prof. Ariella Friedman [sic: Oppenheim] and Dr. Marina Fireman [sic: Faerman], say that according to the findings, the Jews and the Kurds share common ancient forefathers, who lived in the northern part of the Fertile Crescent (a part of contemporary Iraq and Syria). Some moved southward in pre-historic times and settled along the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean. The researchers say that they were surprised to find that the Jews were closer genetically to the Kurds (and to the Turks) than to their Arab neighbors. The findings of the study, which for the first time included a comparison between DNA samples from Jews and DNA samples from Muslim Kurds, also surprised historians such as Prof. Bezalel Bar-Kochba of Tel-Aviv University and Dr. Gunner Lehman of Ben-Gurion University in the Negev, who said: "`It is difficult to explain the findings within the context of the knowledge we have about material and historic culture.'"

Almut Nebel, Dvora Filon, Marina Faerman, Himla Soodyall, and Ariella Oppenheim. "Y chromosome evidence for a founder effect in Ashkenazi Jews." (http://bioanthropology.huji.ac.il/pdf/Nebel%20_2005.pdf) European Journal of Human Genetics 13:3 (March 2005): 388-391.
In the present study of 495 Y chromosomes of Ashkenazim, 57 (11.5%) were found to belong to R-M17. Detailed analyses of haplotype structure, diversity and geographic distribution suggest a founder effect for this haplogroup, introduced at an early stage into the evolving Ashkenazi community in Europe. R-M17 chromosomes in Ashkenazim may represent vestiges of the mysterious Khazars."



So you see Fenris, it really depends on which research one favors.

Do I know for sure that Ashkenazi are descended from turkish khazars?
No.

Do I know for sure they are descended from Abraham?
No

I don't think anyone knows for sure, except God Himself.


If anything is proven by DNA testing, it is that 'Jews' are not a homogenous racial group.

pinky
Nov 10th 2008, 05:32 PM
Quite... By that logic, any Jew who lived in England and called themselves an "English Jew" would suddenly be descended from Angles, rather than Hebrews... and I think we can agree that this isn't exactly a sensible assumption.

German Jews are not descended from Ashkenaz, whatever language they happen to say the word "German" in. :rolleyes:


Eze 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

Eze 38:6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.


Notice the region that these sons of Japeth are from:

According to Strong's;
Magog
Magowg {maw-gogue'}
Magog = "land of Gog"
n pr m

1) the 2nd son of Japheth, grandson of Noah, and progenitor of several tribes northward from Israel
n pr loc

2) the mountainous region between Cappadocia and Media and habitation of the descendants of Magog, son of Japheth and grandson of Noah
----------------------------------------------------------

Gog
Gowg {gohg}
Gog = "mountain"
1) a Reubenite, son of Shemaiah
2) the prophetic prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and Magog
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Meshech
Meshek {meh'-shek}
Mesech or Meshech = "drawing out"
1) son of Japheth, grandson of Noah, and progenitor of peoples to the north of Israel
a) descendants of Mesech often mentioned in connection with Tubal, Magog, and other northern nations including the Moschi, a people on the borders of Colchis and Armenia
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gomer
Gomer {go'-mer}
Gen 10:3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz , and Riphath , and Togarmah.
Gomer = "complete"

n pr m

1) the eldest son of Japheth and grandson of Noah; the progenitor of the early Cimmerians and other branches of the Celtic family


n pr f

2) the unfaithful wife of the prophet Hosea; Hosea's relationship with her was symbolic of God's relationship with wayward Israel

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Togarmah
Towgarmah {to-gar-maw'} or Togarmah {to-gar-maw'}
Togarmah = "thou wilt break her"

n pr m

1) son of Gomer, grandson of Japheth, and great grandson of Noah


n pr terr

2) territory settled by the descendants of Togarmah
a) probably the area known as Armenia

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ashkenaz
'Ashk@naz {ash-ken-az'}

Jer 51:27 ¶ Set ye up a standard in the land, blow the trumpet among the nations, prepare the nations against her, call together against her the kingdoms of Ararat, Minni, and Ashchenaz; appoint a captain against her; cause the horses to come up as the rough caterpillers.

Ashkenaz = "a man as sprinkled: fire as scattered"
1) a descendant of Japheth
2) a northern people, perhaps of Bithynia
-------------------------------------------------------
Ararat
'Ararat {ar-aw-rat'}
Ararat = "the curse reversed: precipitation of curse"
1) a mountainous region of eastern Armenia, between the river Araxes and the lakes Van and Oroomiah, the site where Noah's ark came to rest
2) (TWOT) the mountain where Noah's ark came to rest
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Minni
Minniy {min-nee'}
Minni = "division"
1) a region in Armenia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tubal
Tuwbal {too-bal'} or Tubal {too-bal'}
Tubal = "thou shall be brought"

n pr m

1) son of Japheth and grandson of Noah


n pr terr

2) a region in east Asia Minor
a) perhaps nearly equal to Cappadocia
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, look at a map that locates the regions of Media, Cappadocia, Armenia, and Colchis.

This is the same region the Khazari people are from:

http://www.geocities.com/ayatoles/

pinky
Nov 10th 2008, 05:38 PM
Rev 2:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=2&v=9&t=KJV#9)I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Rev 3:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=3&v=9&t=KJV#9)



Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Here is the TRUE DEFINITION of "Jew".........

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


God Bless,
pinky

Fenris
Nov 10th 2008, 05:50 PM
Hello Fenris.



I don't want to start getting into a debate about DNA studies, because these are not conclusive, are reliant on new techniques and as well new research is finding new DNA markers. The point is that Jews are genetically closer to other Jews than to other groups.



The researchers say that they were surprised to find that the Jews were closer genetically to the Kurds (and to the Turks)Again, not surprising. What this shows is that the Jews are an indigenous middle eastern people.

So you see Fenris, it really depends on which research one favors. Or what they wish to conclude.


Do I know for sure that Ashkenazi are descended from turkish khazars?
No.In fact, even if we agree to the mysterious R-M17 chromosome, it would infer that maybe 10% of Ashkenazic Jews have a Khazak ancestor. If that is where that gene comes from, which is itself uncertain.


Do I know for sure they are descended from Abraham?
NoWell, as I already said, during the middle ages everyone "knew" that Jews were 'Christ-killers'. Now that there is a modern-day state of Israel, too many people "know" that Jews are stealing the Palestinian land, since today's Jews definitely don't descend from biblical Jews.


I don't think anyone knows for sure, except God Himself.I trust my parents with what they taught me. As they trusted theirs. And so on and so on, all the way back to Sinai. Yes, my ancestors were there.



If anything is proven by DNA testing, it is that 'Jews' are not a homogenous racial group.
If anything, it proves that Jews are a homogeneous group. Jews indigenous to the middle east are closer, genetically, to European Jews than to their arab neighbors. Amazing.

Fenris
Nov 10th 2008, 05:59 PM
Again, from wikipeda (I hate dueling quotes)

I bolded the material I found particularly interesting-


Alleged Khazar ancestry of Ashkenazim

The theory that all or most Ashkenazi ("European") Jews might be descended from Khazars (rather than Semitic groups in the Middle East) dates back to the racialism of late nineteenth century Europe, and was frequently cited to assert that most modern Jews aren't descended from Israelites and/or to refute Israeli claims to territory also sought by Palestinians. It was first publicly proposed in lecture given by Ernest Renan on January 27, 1883, titled "Judaism as a Race and as Religion." It was repeated in articles in The Dearborn Independent in 1923 and 1925, and popularized by racial theorist Lothrop Stoddard in a 1926 article in the Forum titled "The Pedigree of Judah", where he argued that Ashkenazi Jews were a mix of people, of which the Khazars were a primary element. Stoddard's views were "based on nineteenth and twentieth-century concepts of race, in which small variations on facial features as well as presumed accompanying character traits were deemed to pass from generation to generation, subject only to the corrupting effects of marriage with members of other groups, the result of which would lower the superior stock without raising the inferior partners." This theory was adopted by British Israelites, who saw it as a means of invalidating the claims of Jews (rather than themselves) to be the true descendants of the ancient Israelites, and was supported by early anti-Zionists.

In 1951 Southern Methodist University professor John O. Beaty published The Iron Curtain over America, a work which claimed that "Khazar Jews" were "responsible for all of America's — and the world's — ills beginning with World War I". The book repeated a number of familiar antisemitic claims, placing responsibility for U.S. involvement in World Wars I and II and the Bolshevik revolution on these Khazars, and insisting that Khazar Jews were attempting to subvert Western Christianity and establish communism throughout the world. The American millionaire J. Russell Maguire gave money towards its promotion, and it was met with enthusiasm by hate groups and the extreme right. By the 1960s the Khazar theory had become a "firm article of faith" amongst Christian Identity groups. In 1971 John Bagot Glubb (Glubb Pasha) also took up this theme, insisting that Palestinians were more closely related to the ancient Judeans than were Jews. According to Benny Morris:

Of course an anti-Zionist (as well as an anti-Semitic) point is being made here: The Palestinians have a greater political right to Palestine than the Jews do, as they, not the modern-day Jews, are the true descendants of the land's Jewish inhabitants/owners.

The theory gained further support when the novelist Arthur Koestler devoted his popular book The Thirteenth Tribe (1976) to the topic. Koestler's historiography has been attacked as highly questionable by many historians; it has also been pointed out that his discussion of theories about Ashkenazi descent is largely unsupported; to the extent that Koestler referred to place-names and documentary evidence his analysis has been described as a mixture of flawed etymologies and misinterpreted primary sources. Commentors have also noted that Koestler mischaracterized the sources he cited, particularly D.M. Dunlop's History of the Jewish Khazars (1954).

Koestler himself was pro-Zionist based on secular considerations, and did not see alleged Khazar ancestry as diminishing the claim of Jews to Israel, which he felt was based on the United Nations mandate, and not on Biblical covenants or genetic inheritance. In his view, "The problem of the Khazar infusion a thousand years ago ... is irrelevant to modern Israel". In addition, he was apparently "either unaware of or oblivious to the use anti-Semites had made to the Khazar theory since its introduction at the turn of the century."

Nevertheless, in the Arab world the Khazar theory still enjoys popularity among some anti-Zionists and antisemites; Such proponents argue that if Ashkenazi Jews are primarily Khazar and not Semitic in origin, they would have no historical claim to Israel, nor would they be the subject of God's Biblical promise of Canaan to the Israelites, thus undermining the theological basis of both Jewish religious Zionists and Christian Zionists. In the 1970s and 80s the Khazar theory was also advanced by some Russian chauvinist antisemites, particularly the historian Lev Gumilyov, who portrayed "Judeo-Khazars" as having repeatedly sabotaged Russia's development since the 7th century.

According to Bernard Lewis:

This theory… is supported by no evidence whatsoever. It has long since been abandoned by all serious scholars in the field, including those in Arab countries, where the Khazar theory is little used except in occasional political polemics.

DNA Evidence

Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have largely disproven the Khazar origin theory for the vast majority of Jews, including the Ashkenazi.

A 1999 study by Hammer et al, published in the Proceedings of the United States National Academy of Sciences compared the Y chromosomes of Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian Jews with 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. It found that "Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level... The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora." According to Nicholas Wade "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism."

A 2001 study by Nebel et al found Eu 19 chromosomes, which are very frequent in Eastern Europeans (54%-60%) at elevated frequency (12.7%) in Ashkenazi Jews. The authors hypothesized that these chromosomes could reflect low-level gene flow from surrounding Eastern European populations, or, alternatively, that the Ashkenazi Jews with Eu 19 might be descendants of Khazars.

A 2005 study by Nebel et al, based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe. However, 11.5% of male Ashkenazim were found to belong to R-M17, the dominant Y chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europeans, suggesting possible gene flow. The authors hypothesized that "R-M17 chromosomes in Ashkenazim may represent vestiges of the mysterious Khazars". They concluded "However, if the R-M17 chromosomes in Ashkenazi Jews do indeed represent the vestiges of the mysterious Khazars then, according to our data, this contribution was limited to either a single founder or a few closely related men, and does not exceed ~ 12% of the present-day Ashkenazim.

Fenris
Nov 10th 2008, 06:04 PM
Eze 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

Eze 38:6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

Ah. So you don't know if today's Jews are Khazarian or not, but you're certain that Ezekiel was propheszing against us. :rolleyes::lol:

napsnsnacks
Nov 12th 2008, 11:24 PM
Jesus preached Jewish ethics, but he didn't preach Jewish doctrine.

You missed the point completely.

The point was just because a Jew espouses any particular religious point of view, particularly one familiar to them or their history, does that make you a Jew for accepting it or believing it?

The answer is no because Christians would all suddenly be Jews for accepting Christ as Messiah.

Being a Jew is a matter of being of the line of the tribe of Judah and not a matter of adopting Jewish oriented religion. They were Gods chosen people because it was their line of people that He selected to eventually produce the Messiah.

Who is of the tribe of Judah anymore no one knows for real.

I will even bet that antichrist will claim to be of the line of Judah.

RoadWarrior
Nov 12th 2008, 11:46 PM
...

Who is of the tribe of Judah anymore no one knows for real.

...

Oddly enough, when it comes to persecution of the Jews, the persecutors don't seem to have any problem finding them....

napsnsnacks
Nov 16th 2008, 01:30 AM
Oddly enough, when it comes to persecution of the Jews, the persecutors don't seem to have any problem finding them....

Even their persecutors have no proof they're Jews except one source:

I don't want to sound crass but it's their own fault since you got so many millions of them saying they are Jews when they aren't and/or that they are of the tribe of Judah when they can't prove it so by the very act of claiming to be Jews invites their slaughter by those who would just as soon see all Jews dead.

Go talk to the Nazis or the KKK and fake being Jewish and see what you get (don't actually do that since it's figurative). Proof being extant, you're in deep trouble based on nothing more than your claims.

The best way to stop that is to stop saying they are Jews without proof.

Then suddenly antisemitism flies right out the window because there aren't any Jews to persecute.

It's insanity feeding insanity, delusion feeding delusion.

Suddenly the burden falls on the antisemites/racists to go out of their way to prove the ones they are after are Jews.

Given that, even with DNA tests I seriously doubt that most racists or racist leaders could prove how pure they are in order to support their superiority. More delusion.

So if people would stop faking to be Jews and if they are of the tribe of Judah stop claiming such without proof then the antisemites have no cause.

It all vanishes into thin air and it may sound crass, they invite this persecution upon themselves.

Edit to add:

Here is an example:

My second great grandmother was a full blooded Cherokee. Do I have any proof of that? No, it was too long ago. Was she listed on the official Cherokee Rolls at the time accounting was taken of the Cherokee? No. Does the Cherokee Nation recognize me as one of theirs? No. Why? I'm not descended from a name on the Rolls.

Regardless, that woman being a full blooded Cherokee is a matter of fact in the family.

Let's assume for a moment that there was a big thing going on against the Cherokee that would be like the thing against the Jews.

Why would I go out of my way to play into the Cherokee haters hands by making claims to being what I cannot prove? There aren't interested in proof, they just need the claim, provable or not, so I get a bullet in the head or thrown in the oven. I had made my own life miserable, or what little was left of it after making the claim right?

It would be my own fault.

Force the haters to prove that the people they hate are actually the people they hate.

Everything else on both sides is just insanity.

There isn't anything overtly about me that could be considered Cherokee so I have known many racists in my days that had nothing against me.

What would have happened had I told them that my second great grandmother was a full blooded Cherokee?

That question is self explanatory.

This hate for everybody else that doesn't share the same skin color or have other skin colors in their line of family only exists in the mind.

Ok, let's say I just lied about all this that I added. From the beginning up to this sentence the supremacists had hate in their heart for me then suddenly they are second guessing the hate.

Hate is a blinding delusion regardless if one has facts to support their hate or not.

Fenris
Nov 16th 2008, 04:19 AM
Even their persecutors have no proof they're Jews except one source:

I don't want to sound crass but it's their own fault since you got so many millions of them saying they are Jews when they aren't and/or that they are of the tribe of Judah when they can't prove it so by the very act of claiming to be Jews invites their slaughter by those who would just as soon see all Jews dead.

Go talk to the Nazis or the KKK and fake being Jewish and see what you get (don't actually do that since it's figurative). Proof being extant, you're in deep trouble based on nothing more than your claims.

The best way to stop that is to stop saying they are Jews without proof.

My parents tell me I'm a Jew because their parents told them and on and on. What would qualify as 'proof' for you?


Then suddenly antisemitism flies right out the window because there aren't any Jews to persecute.
So it's the Jew's fault that antisemitism exists?:rolleyes:



So if people would stop faking to be Jews and if they are of the tribe of Judah stop claiming such without proof then the antisemites have no cause.
There's no polite way to say this- telling people who are Jews that they are 'faking it' could itself be viewed as antisemitic.

Fenris
Nov 16th 2008, 04:28 AM
You know what, napsacks? Who people think Jews are or aren't is really irrelevant. Jews believe that we are here on this earth to fulfill God's will, as He communicated to our ancestors at Sinai. If antisemites don't like that, it's their problem.

For you to insinuate the the Holocaust was the fault of the Jewish people themselves is beyond the pale of civilized behavior.

Kahtar
Nov 16th 2008, 05:09 AM
So all the Jews in Israel and elsewhere should just stop claiming that they are Jews, and all their problems will go away? Wow, what a concept.:hmm:
Guess that same logic would work with Christians, as well, ey? Just stop claiming to be a Christian, and all our persecutions and problems will just go away.






Reality check!:cool:

RoadWarrior
Nov 16th 2008, 06:27 AM
So all the Jews in Israel and elsewhere should just stop claiming that they are Jews, and all their problems will go away? Wow, what a concept.:hmm:
Guess that same logic would work with Christians, as well, ey? Just stop claiming to be a Christian, and all our persecutions and problems will just go away.






Reality check!:cool:

Except for that one little detail ... the Lord knows those who are His. He always has and He always will.

Fenris
Nov 16th 2008, 02:09 PM
Except for that one little detail ... the Lord knows those who are His. He always has and He always will.
God commands me to follow the bible- but I shouldn't follow the Law, because it would be too provocative for antisemites to deal with!:lol:

napsnsnacks
Nov 16th 2008, 05:44 PM
My parents tell me I'm a Jew because their parents told them and on and on. What would qualify as 'proof' for you?

I knew someone would pop in, ignoring my comments about the evils of racism and racists groups and make a comment such as yours as if I were after the Jews and needed proof of Jewishness. See, you got the disease because you attempted to turn the tables on me and put me on the defense regardless of my stance against racism.

See, I don't need proof that you are a Jew though you make it sound like I do, you do or they do since they are the ones making the claims. You make the claim, you supply the proof.

Since you or they are the ones who need the proof, you or they are asking me to take your word for it and I can't do that.

What is going on with that is reverse psychology by those who claim to be Jews is that they make all these claims of being Jews with no proof and it is me and the rest of the word that is on the hot seat to DISPROVE IT. It is a con game because if any effort is made to prove they aren't they all start chanting antisemite, antisemite, antisemite. It is a trap. So who would be so diabolical?

Whether you are a Jew or not is of no interest to me. If that is where your family came from that is between you and them but you need to stop for a minute and think about the dangers, as if you are standing before God as He sees and hears everything you do and claim to be a Jew without proof. If you can show that you are of the tribe of Judah then fine. If not, then you are running the risk of proclaiming something to the rest of the world that you yourself may not even know whether it's true or not. Given that, if you have no proof, why would you endanger yourself to be in this category:

REV 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Is it worth the risk? What type of pride drives someone to make claims that they cannot substantiate? They cannot even prove it to themselves yet they want the rest of the world to blindly accept it.

If one cannot prove they're a Jew then they are running the risk of committing blasphemy. You can claim to be of any other race and it doesn't matter to God but claiming to be a Jew without proof is big trouble.

Adopting the traditional religious articles of Jewish religion does not make one a Jew or else how could you explain who these people are:

REV 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

The church, even today, refuses to understand or recognize who these people are:

REV 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Why? Because if they do they will be accused of every piece of antisemitism there is and that is a stigma no one wants so they avoid their own scriptures.

Currently we can't choose who they are but yet it can only be those or part of those who say they are Jews. REV 2:9 is a sub-group of the whole group who say they are Jews.

That is the very control these people

REV 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

have over the church. Hence the church will never see it coming when it happens.



So it's the Jew's fault that antisemitism exists?

No. You are twisting the context of my statements. My point was that they knowingly play right into the hands of antisemites just like the Black community plays into the hands of racists by adopting the n word as a casual reference to themselves. Only they are to blame for that.



There's no polite way to say this- telling people who are Jews that they are 'faking it' could itself be viewed as antisemitic.

They are faking it. How else could you explain that any person who is not Jewish that happened to adopt the Torah or Talmud as their religious practice, even if it were a Chinaman or an African or a White person, suddenly calls themselves a Jew?

That is faking being a Jew because the biblical context of a Jew is a person of the tribe of Judah.

napsnsnacks
Nov 16th 2008, 05:47 PM
So all the Jews in Israel and elsewhere should just stop claiming that they are Jews, and all their problems will go away? Wow, what a concept.:hmm:
Guess that same logic would work with Christians, as well, ey? Just stop claiming to be a Christian, and all our persecutions and problems will just go away.


No, I clearly stated that the cause of the antisemites and racists would go up in smoke.

My words are purposely being twisted out of context since this is the second time.

napsnsnacks
Nov 16th 2008, 06:00 PM
Except for that one little detail ... the Lord knows those who are His. He always has and He always will.

That is what is important. Only God knows who in our modern day is in the ancestral line of the tribe of Judah.

Never agree or disagree that a person who says they are a Jew is or isn't.

As for those people who make such claims and cannot prove it, they are on the hook to either be correct or be guilty of blasphemy of wrongly claiming to be a Jew. That is between them and God but in the end they will be found out and the world will be a witness to it when the time coms.

A historic event in Revelations no less that the church ignores completely. In fact, the church honors and heaps blessing on anyone who says they are a Jew. Bad news.

The church should remain neutral on the matter, don't agree and don't disagree.

They got no proof but look at the risk they are running.

Plus they make the claims and then demand that the rest of the world to say yes its true or no its not so the ones who are not are dragging those who agree with them without proof into a bees nest.

I never agree or disagree with a person when they say they are a Jew because if I go either way I stumbled because theres no proof and in that I was party to the blasphemy.

They have no proof they are Jews and anyone else is accused of being an antisemite if they try to prove the claims to be wrong so those who claim to be Jews end up having their cake and eating it too.

It's a trap because you run the high risk of blasphemy by agreeing with them that they are Jews without proof and are an antisemite if you try to prove they are not.

Fenris
Nov 16th 2008, 07:52 PM
I knew someone would pop in,I'm not 'popping in'. I'm the person your post was addressed to.


ignoring my comments about the evils of racism and racists groups and make a comment such as yours as if I were after the Jews and needed proof of Jewishness. See, you got the disease because you attempted to turn the tables on me and put me on the defense regardless of my stance against racism.I have a disease because I defend my position? You're obviously not used to having peopel disagree with you I guess.


See, I don't need proof that you are a Jew though you make it sound like I do, you do or they do since they are the ones making the claims. You make the claim, you supply the proof.Why do I need to prove anything? I live by my beliefs, as you do with yours.


Since you or they are the ones who need the proof, you or they are asking me to take your word for it and I can't do that.Why should I care what you think of me?


What is going on with that is reverse psychology by those who claim to be Jews is that they make all these claims of being Jews with no proof and it is me and the rest of the word that is on the hot seat to DISPROVE IT. It is a con game because if any effort is made to prove they aren't they all start chanting antisemite, antisemite, antisemite. It is a trap. So who would be so diabolical?The fact that my claim to be a Jew bothers you should tell me what exactly?


Whether you are a Jew or not is of no interest to me. Great, then we have no problem.


REV 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Is it worth the risk? What type of pride drives someone to make claims that they cannot substantiate? They cannot even prove it to themselves yet they want the rest of the world to blindly accept it.Actually, we'd rather the world just left us alone. But that, apparently, is too much to ask.


If one cannot prove they're a Jew then they are running the risk of committing blasphemy. You can claim to be of any other race and it doesn't matter to God but claiming to be a Jew without proof is big trouble.Why? And better, why do you care? If I want to commit blasphemy, that's between me and God.





REV 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.You really like this verse, don't you?






They are faking it. How else could you explain that any person who is not Jewish that happened to adopt the Torah or Talmud as their religious practice, even if it were a Chinaman or an African or a White person, suddenly calls themselves a Jew?Well, we do accept coverts.


That is faking being a Jew because the biblical context of a Jew is a person of the tribe of Judah.Which is what I am.

Fenris
Nov 16th 2008, 08:02 PM
Anyway, being Jewish means more than just lineage. It also means living up to certain standards of behavior, as set forth in the bible. You're asking people to give up their cherished beliefs and their ethics and morals, in exchange for their temporary physical safety. There's another word for that: cowardice.

quiet dove
Nov 16th 2008, 08:30 PM
Fenris, I reckon I have the same disease? I'm not Jewish, but I cannot prove what I say I am bloodline wise. I mean I know what my parents told me but I haven't had any blood work done to prove it.

I'm a little puzzled why someone would claim to be Jewish if they are not, considering the growing antisemitism in the world. And telling someone to deny their Jewishness is like telling a Christian to deny the Gospel, at least, as Fenris stated, that is how he feels about it.

I would think separating the Jews from the ones faking it would be the same as separating the true believers from the ones faking it, stick a gun in their face.

And Fenris, just have to add, I sure would like to see that gun in your face on account of you being a believer in Jesus. Had to put a plug in for Jesus here. :hug:

Fenris
Nov 16th 2008, 10:05 PM
Quiet dove, I love American Christians. We can be the best of friends without agreeing on every single thing. :hug: