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INOLVIDABLE
Nov 8th 2008, 10:18 AM
What was created first???
Earth or the angels???
Earth or heaven???

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 8th 2008, 12:22 PM
Genesis 1...angels well, we don't know when GOD created them but they are created for GOD's purpose like in Abraham time to tell him that he will have a child in old age, take Lot and his family away from Sodom and Gemorrah, help Daniel in the Lion Den, stop Abraham from killing Isaac and many more in the Bible. Some worship GOD...send messages to prophet like John the Apostle, Mary the mother of the LORD Jesus Christ, to Zechariah to announce the birth of John the Baptist.


What was created first???
Earth or the angels???
Earth or heaven???

Kahtar
Nov 8th 2008, 01:38 PM
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
(Job 38:4-7)
From this verse we see that the angels, the 'sons of God' sang together and shouted for joy when God created the earth, which means they must have been created before the earth.
Genesis 1:1 indicates that the heaven was made before the earth.

one_lost_coin
Nov 8th 2008, 03:17 PM
Interesting question I did a general internet search to see what was to be said on the matter found this

Q: Were angels created before man? What happened with Lucifer?

Father Stanzione: There is an ongoing debate on the birth of the angels, in the sense that some hold that the angels were created before men, and others that they were created contemporaneously with men...

apparently no formal declaration exists on the topic due to their being no complete revelation from God on the matter.

There are some mystic writtings from Anne Catherine Emmerich about the creation of the angels and the world, but no one is bound to accept them as proof of anything. I have not read them personally but my wife has and she found it interesting.

I found the same basic issue with the heavens and the earth also that I found with the angels and earth.

I am guessing they were created at the same time, that is all of it simultaneously, based on reasons that are very arbitrary and not even convincing to me.

threebigrocks
Nov 8th 2008, 05:21 PM
Well, the date of angels being created is unknown. But kahtar's post above does show, per the OP's question, that heaven and angles existed prior to the creation of the earth and all on it. Someday, we may know but if I never find out - doesn't make anything less or more. ;)

Biastai
Nov 8th 2008, 06:53 PM
"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind."
Proverbs 8:23-31, Wisdom speaking in 1st person (NIV)

The writer of Proverbs would say wisdom was the first of God's creation. Echoes of this idea are found in the apocryphal book of Wisdom and the prologue in the gospel of John.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 8th 2008, 06:54 PM
What was created first???
Earth or the angels???
Earth or heaven???

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth..doesn't really give an exact time as to which one was formed first..lol..confusing no?

So for all we know the heavens could have been created today, and the earth could have been created yesterday...and to God, this could all represent the beginning.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 8th 2008, 06:57 PM
"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind."
Proverbs 8:23-31, Wisdom speaking in 1st person (NIV)

The writer of Proverbs would say wisdom was the first of God's creation. Echoes of this idea are found in the apocryphal book of Wisdom and the prologue in the gospel of John.

Which brings about an interesting question..was God ever without his wisdom? My thought would be that his wisdom was always a part of him. As were his children in a sense...seeing as how in scripture he states.."before you were born I knew you."

Biastai
Nov 8th 2008, 07:05 PM
Which brings about an interesting question..was God ever without his wisdom? My thought would be that his wisdom was always a part of him. As were his children in a sense...seeing as how in scripture he states.."before you were born I knew you."

Exactly. It depends how one sees wisdom. An attribute of God? One with God? A separate entity in the form of a counselor? I lean more towards your view. A careful reading of the reign of David seems to show that whenever David was "inquiring of the Lord," he almost seemed to be inquiring of wisdom as well i.e. military tactics. From what I've read in Bible footnotes, it seems some translations equated king David's "success" with "wisdom."

threebigrocks
Nov 8th 2008, 08:17 PM
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth..doesn't really give an exact time as to which one was formed first..lol..confusing no?

So for all we know the heavens could have been created today, and the earth could have been created yesterday...and to God, this could all represent the beginning.

Well, if satan was in the garden, and we can agree he was cast out of heaven and down to the earth - wouldn't heaven have had to exist before earth?

Lamplighter
Nov 9th 2008, 04:34 AM
In the beginning god created the heaven(shamayim) and the earth('erets)

The Hebrew word shamayim(שמים) means, visible heavens, sky, atmosphere.

The Hebrew word "erets(ארץ) means, land whole earth.

This is not talking about where God the Father is.

Zack702
Nov 9th 2008, 06:18 AM
This is not talking about where God the Father is.

I agree the heaven Genesis talks about is the firmament between the waters. Or that it is space.

The heaven that God dwells in I think is his dwelling place and God sent his spirit into the void to create Earth.

Personaly I think that angels were created after. And that we each will be a angel of Good or a angel of Evil upon our resurrection.
Isn't it true that when we die and are resurrected or if God takes us then we become angel ?

Lamplighter
Nov 9th 2008, 07:03 AM
Personaly I think that angels were created after. And that we each will be a angel of Good or a angel of Evil upon our resurrection.
Isn't it true that when we die and are resurrected or if God takes us then we become angel ?

We will have the same resurrection bodies that Christ has, and Christ is not, nor ever was an Angel.

Where did you get the humans resurrected as Angels idea my friend?

Zack702
Nov 9th 2008, 07:31 AM
Where did you get the humans resurrected as Angels idea my friend?
Psalm 103:20
Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Well just that we either follow angels of good or angels of evil. And when we will be in heaven we will be as angels and not as humans any longer. The Lord of Hosts is his name. And who is his host?
If we follow the OT closely we see that angels were not only spiritual beings but also at times appeared as humans on the Earth. I just think that anyone who the Lord of Hosts raises up to be a angel is a angel.

Or perhaps there are passages that say we will not be after this?

As of now we are humans (not angel) being able to enjoy our fleshy ways yet we are proving ourselves. When we die and are resurrected we will no longer be fleshy but will forever take on our judgement as either evil or good. And so we will join ranks with them who are good or them who are evil and will be as angels.

Kahtar
Nov 9th 2008, 01:41 PM
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (1 Corinthians 6:3 KJV)

Lamplighter
Nov 9th 2008, 06:57 PM
Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.


Remember, Christ is addressing the Pharisees in this passage of scripture on marriage relationships between men and women in Heaven. Christ tells them that there is no marriage relationships in Heaven between men and women, we are like the Angels in Heaven, who do not marry. We are only like the Angels in that we do not marry in Heaven. Always read scripture in light of scripture my friend. Don't pick or chose a passage of scripture in the middle of a chapter, and give it a meaning out of context. Read scripture in light of scripture, to get it's entire context. God bless.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 9th 2008, 07:49 PM
Remember, Christ is addressing the Pharisees in this passage of scripture on marriage relationships between men and women in Heaven. Christ tells them that there is no marriage relationships in Heaven between men and women, we are like the Angels in Heaven, who do not marry. We are only like the Angels in that we do not marry in Heaven. Always read scripture in light of scripture my friend. Don't pick or chose a passage of scripture in the middle of a chapter, and give it a meaning out of context. Read scripture in light of scripture, to get it's entire context. God bless.

I don't think he took it out of context. There isn't necessarily a reference in this passage which points to whether or not Jesus was entirely referring to the concept of us being like angels from a marital or physical standpoint. If we look at the entire chapter of Matthew 22, we see that the Saduccees were the one's adressing Jesus. As referenced in Acts 23:8, the Saduccees did not believe in the resurrection, angels nor spirits. Thus Jesus's response to them fulfilled a two-fold purpose - one, it signified that they were lacking in knowledge regarding the spiritual world around them(something which they were trying to demonstrate he had a lack in knowledge about) as well as taught them that God himself didn't view the concept of marriage from a standpoint of those who have died without him, but instead from a standpoint of those who were currently living within him. Remember God is not the God of the dead, he is a God of the living.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 9th 2008, 07:54 PM
Exactly. It depends how one sees wisdom. An attribute of God? One with God? A separate entity in the form of a counselor? I lean more towards your view. A careful reading of the reign of David seems to show that whenever David was "inquiring of the Lord," he almost seemed to be inquiring of wisdom as well i.e. military tactics. From what I've read in Bible footnotes, it seems some translations equated king David's "success" with "wisdom."

True. Wisdom as well as his love and his faithfulness. In many psalms he goes on to speak about God's unfailing love for his people, as well as his love for all of his creations as a whole.

Lamplighter
Nov 10th 2008, 04:05 AM
I don't think he took it out of context. There isn't necessarily a reference in this passage which points to whether or not Jesus was entirely referring to the concept of us being like angels from a marital or physical standpoint.

The question asked of Christ was about who the woman was married to in Heaven, so yes, the passage is referring to marriage in Heaven.

Biastai
Nov 11th 2008, 04:45 AM
Nobody for the Word/Logos?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."
John 1:1,2 (NIV)

joztok
Nov 11th 2008, 01:52 PM
I am convicted that heaven was made first with the angels. I received an awesome vision about this. God created the heavens and the angels to then demonstrate his glory and power by then creating the earth and the fulness of creation. This is why they live to glorify Him, they see His mighty works daily through us, His creation and whatever glory that is revealed in the heavens only they can see.

It's through creation God reveals himself to us and it's through the heavens God reveals himself to us. The relationship God has with His angels and spirits reveals His glory to us. The relationship we have with God reveals His glory to them. Creation's relationship with God itself reveals God's glory to both man and angel.

Just how the Holy Spirit glorifies the Son and Father, the Son to the Father and Spirit, and the Father to the Spirit and Son, so too does this Heaven/Creation/Man trinity reveal God's glory to the heavenly hosts.

Instrument
Nov 11th 2008, 02:51 PM
What was created first???
Earth or the angels???
Earth or heaven???
The angels. see Job 38: 6-7.