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musicmiss
Nov 8th 2008, 11:57 PM
I know this is a widely disagreed upon topic, but I'm wondering if I could get different people's opinions on this question. I feel like I've read alot of verses that state once saved always saved. I also feel like if someone really does get saved, then they won't ever depart from that, otherwise they probably had a false conversion to begin with.

But I also come across a few other verses here and there that make it seem like maybe you can lose your salvation.


So I'm just wondering what other people think about this?

Thanks!

holyrokker
Nov 9th 2008, 06:16 AM
I know this is a widely disagreed upon topic, but I'm wondering if I could get different people's opinions on this question. I feel like I've read alot of verses that state once saved always saved. I also feel like if someone really does get saved, then they won't ever depart from that, otherwise they probably had a false conversion to begin with.

But I also come across a few other verses here and there that make it seem like maybe you can lose your salvation.


So I'm just wondering what other people think about this?

Thanks!

You're right, it's been discussed over and over again, but usually people just posting proof-texts.

A proof-text is a verse cited to give support to a doctrine that is presumed to be true. It's not a good way to discuss a matter of theology.

Rather than looking at particular verses with a presumed implication, we need to study passages in their original context to see what those passages teach us.

Here is an article on the topic that I think is very good. http://revivaltheology.gharvest.com/5_eternal_security/olsonsec.html

Literalist-Luke
Nov 9th 2008, 06:24 AM
I don't think it's possible to prove it one way or the other. The one thing the Bible is clear on is that one must maintain a general lifestyle that is attempting to live in a way so as to glorify God. That doesn't mean we won't make mistakes along the way, sometimes even serious ones, but our general desire will be to live in a way that would be pleasing to God.

Now, having stated that, if somebody has a salvation experience and then doesn't live out that lifestyle, turning their back on it instead, does that mean they were saved and then lost it or rather that they were never really saved in the first place? That's difficult (at best) to answer. The bottom line is that if we turn our back on our Christian walk, the end result is still most likely that we will arrive in the next life unsaved, regardless of whether we ever were in this one or not.

Zack702
Nov 9th 2008, 07:09 AM
The one thing the Bible is clear on is that one must maintain a general lifestyle that is attempting to live in a way so as to glorify God. That doesn't mean we won't make mistakes along the way, sometimes even serious ones, but our general desire will be to live in a way that would be pleasing to God.

Well said!

If you ask me the question shouldn't be "Once save always saved?".
We should never test each others faith.
But rather it should be...
Do we bear the iniquity of sins commited after accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord?

What we need to address is how do we believe? Do we simply say we do? Or do we actually act accordingly.
If somone says they are honest and they steal things when noone is looking then you tell me. Have they been honest? (guilty party present!) I am saved of my guilt when I confess my doings to God and repent and believe in Jesus Christ who was as we are yet overcame for us. But then if I do again a sin and hide it then again I need to confess to God now and more so that I need his help to keep me from that desire.

holyrokker
Nov 10th 2008, 12:16 AM
"How many times can I sin and still be saved?" is like asking your wife "How many affairs can I have and still be married?"

looking4jesus
Nov 10th 2008, 12:33 AM
I don't think it's possible to prove it one way or the other. The one thing the Bible is clear on is that one must maintain a general lifestyle that is attempting to live in a way so as to glorify God. That doesn't mean we won't make mistakes along the way, sometimes even serious ones, but our general desire will be to live in a way that would be pleasing to God.

Now, having stated that, if somebody has a salvation experience and then doesn't live out that lifestyle, turning their back on it instead, does that mean they were saved and then lost it or rather that they were never really saved in the first place? That's difficult (at best) to answer. The bottom line is that if we turn our back on our Christian walk, the end result is still most likely that we will arrive in the next life unsaved, regardless of whether we ever were in this one or not.

there is a option that you left out..
Being saved and not lost it. Just because a person turns their back if they are truly saved does not mean they lost their Salvation, they have walked out of fellowship with Jesus for a season the Holy Spirit will either bring them back to repentence or God will take them out of the world sooner than later. God knows his sheep not one is ever lost even before the birth of one God knows all past , present and future.
thats my take and I am sticking to it..
God Bless:bounce:
Randy

Butch5
Nov 10th 2008, 02:08 AM
there is a option that you left out..
Being saved and not lost it. Just because a person turns their back if they are truly saved does not mean they lost their Salvation, they have walked out of fellowship with Jesus for a season the Holy Spirit will either bring them back to repentence or God will take them out of the world sooner than later. God knows his sheep not one is ever lost even before the birth of one God knows all past , present and future.
thats my take and I am sticking to it..
God Bless:bounce:
Randy

Randy, can you please supply some Scripture support your hyophesis?

Butch5
Nov 10th 2008, 02:25 AM
I know this is a widely disagreed upon topic, but I'm wondering if I could get different people's opinions on this question. I feel like I've read alot of verses that state once saved always saved. I also feel like if someone really does get saved, then they won't ever depart from that, otherwise they probably had a false conversion to begin with.

But I also come across a few other verses here and there that make it seem like maybe you can lose your salvation.


So I'm just wondering what other people think about this?

Thanks!

Hi Musicmiss,

The answer to your question is found in the answer to another question, can a person turn away from Christ? IF you answer this question then, you will have the answer to your question regarding the loss of salvation.
Can a person turn away from Christ?

Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Notice the writer says the Apostle and High Priest of "OUR POFESSION", Jesus Christ.
These "ARE" Christians, the writer say of our profession, the one He is writing to have professed belief in Christ, He goes on to say,

Hebrews 3:12 ( KJV ) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Brethren, unless there is in any of you an evil heart of unbelief. He has just spoken of those in the wilderness who fell because of unbelief. He goes on to say,

Hebrews 3:13-14 ( KJV ) 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

He just said make sure there is not an evil heart of unbelief in you, why? Because we are made partakers of Christ "IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end. So , we see here two verses that tell us a person can turn away from Christ, if someone turns away from Christ then they have not held their confidence steadfast to the end and can loss their salvation

The context here is the Hebrew Christians being told not to return to

looking4jesus
Nov 10th 2008, 02:46 AM
Randy, can you please supply some Scripture support your hyophesis?
Butch I can supply you with pages of scripture that supposrt eternal security but you see my friend that is not the issue.
The issue that I see is with you that you have your heart harden to the doctrine of eternal security. You will never find peace in this unless you find peace in yourself by Gods word. I am living, walking , breathing witness to the truth that the Holy Spirit stays with a saved person. For 25 years I turned my back but the Holy Spirit was always there. Doing the scripture game back and forth will not get you anywhere and will not bring you peace on this. Prayer can help but direct knowledge through revelation by the Holy Spirit works the best. If you take notice of your own reaction when another christian gives you scripture to support OSAS you go a pick at it and bring in some other scripture and so the game play son and on. There is no end to this kind of thing and it will not bring you the truth or the peace that your seeking. One thing to look at is how much dmage is cause to new christians by your belief that they can loose their salvation because of a future sin, in effect you make what God has done a meaning less thing. Jesus did not die and die and die again he did it once and for all. There is lots of scripture showing that God knows his own even before we are born, he knows his own, he knows the past , present and future. You ar estuck on your position because for some reason you feel that works plays a part of salvation and of course it does not , it cannot play a part of salvation for if it did you rendered what Jesu did on the cross to a nothing thing.
Pray that is my advice God will always answer a sincere prayer from his own sheep.
God Bless
Randy

holyrokker
Nov 10th 2008, 02:58 AM
James 1:14-15
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

How does this passage relate to this topic?

Butch5
Nov 10th 2008, 03:07 AM
Butch I can supply you with pages of scripture that supposrt eternal security but you see my friend that is not the issue.
The issue that I see is with you that you have your heart harden to the doctrine of eternal security. You will never find peace in this unless you find peace in yourself by Gods word. I am living, walking , breathing witness to the truth that the Holy Spirit stays with a saved person. For 25 years I turned my back but the Holy Spirit was always there. Doing the scripture game back and forth will not get you anywhere and will not bring you peace on this. Prayer can help but direct knowledge through revelation by the Holy Spirit works the best. If you take notice of your own reaction when another christian gives you scripture to support OSAS you go a pick at it and bring in some other scripture and so the game play son and on. There is no end to this kind of thing and it will not bring you the truth or the peace that your seeking. One thing to look at is how much dmage is cause to new christians by your belief that they can loose their salvation because of a future sin, in effect you make what God has done a meaning less thing. Jesus did not die and die and die again he did it once and for all. There is lots of scripture showing that God knows his own even before we are born, he knows his own, he knows the past , present and future. You ar estuck on your position because for some reason you feel that works plays a part of salvation and of course it does not , it cannot play a part of salvation for if it did you rendered what Jesu did on the cross to a nothing thing.
Pray that is my advice God will always answer a sincere prayer from his own sheep.
God Bless
Randy


My friend, it is not I that needs to study the Scriptures, if eternal security were true, then you would be able to go directly to Scripture and show a doctrine through the Bible. However you cannot, at best you can proof text with a few verses. However I can start in Genesis and end in Revelation and show continually through the Bible that God says we need to continue in Him or we will be lost.

Also I did not say one loses their salvation by committing a future sin, I said one loses their salvation by turning away from Christ.

Marc B
Nov 10th 2008, 03:41 AM
Bottom line is yes. It is possible to lose our salvation.

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 04:17 AM
Bottom line is yes. It is possible to lose our salvation.

Sorry Marc B, Bottom line is NO! It is not possible to lose our salvation!

looking4jesus
Nov 10th 2008, 11:50 AM
My friend, it is not I that needs to study the Scriptures, if eternal security were true, then you would be able to go directly to Scripture and show a doctrine through the Bible. However you cannot, at best you can proof text with a few verses. However I can start in Genesis and end in Revelation and show continually through the Bible that God says we need to continue in Him or we will be lost.

Also I did not say one loses their salvation by committing a future sin, I said one loses their salvation by turning away from Christ.


Dear Butch,

This is one of the issues in the Bible that you can debate until the day you see Jesus.
There are more than just a few proof-texts. There is direct and real experiences of born again people that have time and time again turned away from Jesus and were brought back by our mighty God, God the Holy Spirit working all the time in them. You have seen it here on this board by other members posting this is exactly what happened to me.

One member turned away for 5 years Butch and admits it was only Gods grace not him that brought him back, for myself it was a bit longer like 25 years. So what say you. are you calling me and others that have had this happen lie rs! I do not think you mean to do that. So what is it Butch. Can you at least see that it must be the saving and preserving power of the Holy Spirit that is doing this work of Grace inside the believer even though the believer may not be believing anymore. One thing for sure the Holy Spirit is God. Just as much God as God the father and God the son Jesus. I for one would never want to say to this God that I do not believe in you or your work to preserve the saved person because I want to believe that one can depart and fall away from you. I would never attempted to Judge our God on what he does. There are way too many real life stories of born again Christians falling completely away from God and being brought back to fellowship by Gods almighty Grace to say that it does not happen and they will lose their Salvation.

The probem as I see it has to do with the belief or maybe the non belief that God, the Holy Spirit comes inside the believer and never leaves.

So if you want to tell God the Holy Spirit otherwise then that is up to you.
For myself I know it to be a fact and as true as the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ saves us it is as true that God the Holy Spirit keeps us.
God Bless
Randy

holyrokker
Nov 10th 2008, 05:10 PM
Sorry Marc B, Bottom line is NO! It is not possible to lose our salvation!
Sorry, the bottom line is that the Church does not agree on this topic. The Bottom line is "Maybe"
The bottom line is that we cannot make such arrogant declarations, because there are indications from Scripture contrary to your claim.
The bottom line is, such a claim on your part is arrogance and pride.

holyrokker
Nov 10th 2008, 05:11 PM
Bottom line is yes. It is possible to lose our salvation.
Sorry, the bottom line is that the Church does not agree on this topic. The Bottom line is "Maybe"
The bottom line is that we cannot make such arrogant declarations, because there are indications from Scripture contrary to your claim.
The bottom line is, such a claim on your part is arrogance and pride.

http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 08:14 PM
Sorry, the bottom line is that the Church does not agree on this topic. The Bottom line is "Maybe"
The bottom line is that we cannot make such arrogant declarations, because there are indications from Scripture contrary to your claim.
The bottom line is, such a claim on your part is arrogance and pride.

Now Holyrokker,

Certainly you don't perceive confidence as arrogance and pride? Either we accept the Bible as our final authority, which repeatedly shows we can have confindence, knowing with blessed assurance that all our sins have been forgiven, and we stand in Christ knowing that He will complete the good work He has begun in us...or we grab verses out of context that appear to teach we can lose what God has eternally secured. Problem with believing we can lose our salvation is that is does not harmonize with all of Scripture...it causes contradiction, and therefore is not true, because Scripture never contradicts.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 10th 2008, 08:29 PM
Now Holyrokker,

Certainly you don't perceive confidence as arrogance and pride? Either we accept the Bible as our final authority, which repeatedly shows we can have confindence, knowing with blessed assurance that all our sins have been forgiven, and we stand in Christ knowing that He will complete the good work He has begun in us...or we grab verses out of context that appear to teach we can lose what God has eternally secured. Problem with believing we can lose our salvation is that is does not harmonize with all of Scripture...it causes contradiction, and therefore is not true, because Scripture never contradicts.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

The same is said of your position.

Nowhere does the Bible say a person cannot turn away from Christ, on the contrary, the Bible warns us not to turn away from Christ. If salvation cannot be lost please explain this passage to me. Were the apostles saved? Jesus said this to John, Matthew, Peter and the other apostles


Mark 9:31 ( KJV ) 31For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.



Mark 9:43-49 ( KJV ) 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Notice Jesus didn't say, if a man's hand offends. He said if "your" hand offends you cut it off, it is better for "you" to enter life maimed than for "you" to go into hell. Jesus said this to the apostles, why would He say this if they could not lose their salvation?????

Lamplighter
Nov 10th 2008, 09:39 PM
"How many times can I sin and still be saved?" is like asking your wife "How many affairs can I have and still be married?"

I have a good friend who's wife cheats on him from time to time, and yet he is still married to her, and they still live together. Infidelity does not end a marriage, divorce does.

musicmiss
Nov 12th 2008, 06:11 AM
there is a option that you left out..
Being saved and not lost it. Just because a person turns their back if they are truly saved does not mean they lost their Salvation, they have walked out of fellowship with Jesus for a season the Holy Spirit will either bring them back to repentence or God will take them out of the world sooner than later. God knows his sheep not one is ever lost even before the birth of one God knows all past , present and future.
thats my take and I am sticking to it..
God Bless:bounce:
Randy


Ok but if they walked away... like lets say doing drugs or something like that, and God takes them away before they have been brought to repentance, then can we really have the assurance tht they are in heaven just because they have professed to know Christ? The bible says that they will know us by our love and our fruit. So if we don't have any of that, than how can we be saved? That's my question in response to your post. I totally see what you're saying though. But it might actually have left me a little more confused haha.


Although then again from everyone else's posts, I kind of see that maybe this isn't something I really NEED to know. Like there's more important things.

sheina maidle
Nov 12th 2008, 08:00 AM
"How many times can I sin and still be saved?" is like asking your wife "How many affairs can I have and still be married?"
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Salvation is not a license to continue in the same lifestyle of sin. We are new creatures in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17)....this doesn't mean we become "sinless", but our desires will change because we love God and desire to obey Him. So, instead of focusing on "how many times we can sin and still be saved", focus on Christ who has delivered us from the penalty and power of sin. Set your affections on Him.

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Colossians 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.