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Thaddaeus
Nov 9th 2008, 01:21 PM
As on many Bible topics, I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, But God has showed me an angle on the once saved always saved issue, that I would like to share with all who will read this thread. To start with, let me say that there are many verses on the left side ( the side that says we can lose our salvation ) that I struggle with. But there are many verses on the right side ( or what I think is the right side, where I can't do anything to lose my salvation,Where I didn't do anything to earn my salvation, Not my works, But Jesus did the work for me, so to say that I can lose my salvation is to say that His works was not good enough for me, !!) that the other side can't answer either. Now here is the angle, I have heard from the left side many many times, that once we have called upon the Name of the Lord ( the key here is if we call upon the name of the Lord, we must then make Him Lord ) but even if we are saved and right before we are called home either way by the grave or the rapture, if we sin just before we are called home we can lose our salvation. IF this is true then would someone please explain the verses

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Now here is the question if we lose our salvation with every little sin, where does Chastisement come in, for if God kicks us out of the Family with every little sin, then there is no need for Him to reprove, rebuke and then chasten us, for we are not sons/daughters but bastards and we have no Father, and we only become sons of God through faith in our adoption by Jesus Christ our big Brother. Please do not over load this thread with all the verses you have, where you believe we can lose our salvation just please keep the thoughts you share to the answering to my one question. if we can lose our salvation by sinning after we come to His knowledge then where does the doctrine of chastisement come in???

Here I go I am saved, but I look at a woman with lust on my mind, that small little voice speaks up and says you know you really shouldn't think like that(reprove). But I keep looking then that voice becomes alot more stern I TOLD YOU YOU REALLY SHOULDN"T BE THINKING LIKE THAT!(rebuke) but this is really a good looking woman Lord, and You really did bless her. Bam here comes out the whip(chastisement), But by the whip I know that I am still one of His because whom He chastens He also loves For the Father chastens His children not the Lost.

Or here I go I look at a woman with lust on my mind, Bam I burn!! For the Father lied when He said those He chastens He also loves.

Now I don't mean to be so blunt here, but I know no other way to express this, it all comes down to our faith and where is, or whom is our faith in.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus is my Author and He is my Finisher of my faith, I didn't write my plan of salvation and I can't keep it. Thats why My faith needs to be In Jesus not in me.

Heb 11:6 (http://bibleforums.org/heb+11:6)Butwithout faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Yes There is a calling for His Children to Live right, so if the righteousness has to exceed the righteousness of scribes and Pharisees , How will any ever enter into heaven? I plea the BLOOD, not my works :pp

godsgirl
Nov 9th 2008, 04:04 PM
I don't think those that know OSAS for the lie it is would even come close to saying that "we lose our salvation with every little sin".

looking4jesus
Nov 9th 2008, 04:38 PM
I don't think those that know OSAS for the lie it is would even come close to saying that "we lose our salvation with every little sin".


Any sin no matter how little is more than enough to keep you out of heaven abd doomed to hell. That is why Jesus came .Salvation is never by works it cannot be so. If you can loose it you never had it to begin with. Jesu dies once and for all for our sins not again and again. Your are born again once and forever. Now you can make a big messed out of your life and God can even take you out of the world and cut your life short but you will stil be saved. The Holy Spirit stays inside you always you can deny him but he will never deny you.

Satans lie is to accused the saved that be careful lest you loose your salvation. this makes a mock of God and brings down what Jesus did on the croos to a effect not of Grace but by works of msn.
God Bless

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 04:48 PM
I don't think those that know OSAS for the lie it is would even come close to saying that "we lose our salvation with every little sin".
Then just how many does it take? Is there a list or a number somewhere?

Yukerboy
Nov 9th 2008, 05:08 PM
I have always believed OSAS, but I believe that OSAS is actually AS. Before you were born, you were either chosen or not. God loved Jacob but hated Esau and this was before either had done anything good or bad, while they were still in the womb.

As for sin causing one to lose salvation, I have mentioned before about lying to your children when you state "Santa Claus is coming to town". It is a lie, a sin, and also misleading little ones. A lot of those against OSAS will justify this saying "That sin isn't bad enough to lose salvation".

Now, I move to one that would be. Suicide.

I think most everyone agree that suicide is a sin. Suicide is certainly a sin that is impossible to repent of. However, Jesus stated there is only one unforgiveable sin.

Either Suicide is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit OR suicide is a forgiveable sin and one that was forgiven when the person who committed it was chosen before he/she was born.

Yuke

looking4jesus
Nov 9th 2008, 05:16 PM
I have always believed OSAS, but I believe that OSAS is actually AS. Before you were born, you were either chosen or not. God loved Jacob but hated Esau and this was before either had done anything good or bad, while they were still in the womb.

As for sin causing one to lose salvation, I have mentioned before about lying to your children when you state "Santa Claus is coming to town". It is a lie, a sin, and also misleading little ones. A lot of those against OSAS will justify this saying "That sin isn't bad enough to lose salvation".

Now, I move to one that would be. Suicide.

I think most everyone agree that suicide is a sin. Suicide is certainly a sin that is impossible to repent of. However, Jesus stated there is only one unforgiveable sin.

Either Suicide is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit OR suicide is a forgiveable sin and one that was forgiven when the person who committed it was chosen before he/she was born.

Yuke

Well said when a person accept Jesus Christ and is saved it is a one time past, present and future event.
god Bless

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 05:22 PM
Well said when a person accept Jesus Christ and is saved it is a one time past, present and future event.
god Bless
I agree. In my mind, when Jesus said He would never leave us or forsake us, He meant that. His word depends on Him and not on us.

CoffeeCat
Nov 9th 2008, 05:36 PM
Here's a question I've got, generally --

If OSAS is true, then what happens in the following scenario: a young person accepts Christ, starts to live for Christ, and then falls away from Christ and stops living for Him or even admitting that He exists. Is this person still saved? Will God pull this person back to Him? Let's assume that this person was actually, genuinely a Christian, and lets not use the argument "well, they must not have been really saved".

This scenario fits many, many people I know. I LIKE the OSAS position and hope that it's true, but this part of it's always bothered me. I'd love to know for sure that God creates us, saves us, and then nothing WE do can change that.... but if someone turns their back on God and walks away, does salvation still hold?

If OSAS is absolutely true, then there are a LOT more saved people walking around in this world today than we or even they would suspect.

looking4jesus
Nov 9th 2008, 05:50 PM
Here's a question I've got, generally --

If OSAS is true, then what happens in the following scenario: a young person accepts Christ, starts to live for Christ, and then falls away from Christ and stops living for Him or even admitting that He exists. Is this person still saved? Will God pull this person back to Him? Let's assume that this person was actually, genuinely a Christian, and lets not use the argument "well, they must not have been really saved".

This scenario fits many, many people I know. I LIKE the OSAS position and hope that it's true, but this part of it's always bothered me. I'd love to know for sure that God creates us, saves us, and then nothing WE do can change that.... but if someone turns their back on God and walks away, does salvation still hold?

If OSAS is absolutely true, then there are a LOT more saved people walking around in this world today than we or even they would suspect.

your last comment first..yes you are probably right but there are a lot more unsaved people walking around that think they are saved also IMO

Yes on your first comment of course, God will bring thta person back ot take him back off this earth either way the Salvation is a done deal.
If you get a chance read my own story in the How do you know when your are saved section. For 25 years I turned away yet God did not turn a inch away from me. The work of th Holy Spirit continues in a saved person regardless of what that person does. The false doctrine that you can loose your salvation is not of God but of Satan. Satan wants all belivers to belive that their salvation in a conditional one based on works not grace.
God Bless

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 05:52 PM
In my opinion? God will try to guide the person back to a family relationship. The measures will be increasing more focused and strict or harsh. If the person continues to rebel, God will take him out of this world rather than "lose" him for etenity or allow him to bring shame on the name of Christ.

Hebrews 6:4-8

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Yukerboy
Nov 9th 2008, 05:55 PM
Let's assume that this person was actually, genuinely a Christian, and lets not use the argument "well, they must not have been really saved".

Hmmm, the old I want you to debate with me, but please don't use your best arguments. :)

Seriously though, that person was never saved.

While I do believe in OSAS and the whole of the TULIP principles, I do not believe in "blessed assurance". Do I know I'm saved? I believe I am and therefore cannot lose it, but if I do reject God in the future, then it is not that salvation was taken away from me, but it was never granted to me to begin with.

Salvation is a gift of God and God's gifts are irrevocable. Romans 12 something...

Yuke

looking4jesus
Nov 9th 2008, 05:58 PM
In my opinion? God will try to guide the person back to a family relationship. The measures will be increasing more focused and strict or harsh. If the person continues to rebel, God will take him out of this world rather than "lose" him for etenity or allow him to bring shame on the name of Christ.

Hebrews 6:4-8

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

I agree 100%
thank you
God bless

looking4jesus
Nov 9th 2008, 06:00 PM
Hmmm, the old I want you to debate with me, but please don't use your best arguments. :)

Seriously though, that person was never saved.

While I do believe in OSAS and the whole of the TULIP principles, I do not believe in "blessed assurance". Do I know I'm saved? I believe I am and therefore cannot lose it, but if I do reject God in the future, then it is not that salvation was taken away from me, but it was never granted to me to begin with.

Salvation is a gift of God and God's gifts are irrevocable. Romans 12 something...

Yuke

Dear Yuke I am new here and I like to make friends with everyone I can so please take no ofense but You nor I nor anyone but God can say if a person is saved or not. we cannot Judge this it is only for God to Judge is a person is truly saved.
God Bless you

Yukerboy
Nov 9th 2008, 06:07 PM
Dear Yuke I am new here and I like to make friends with everyone I can so please take no ofense but You nor I nor anyone but God can say if a person is saved or not. we cannot Judge this it is only for God to Judge is a person is truly saved.
God Bless you

:agree:

100% with you on that, but I even go one step further. Not only can we not judge if a person is saved or not, we cannot even judge if we ourselves are saved.

We are to make our election sure, but there is no guarantee that we are when we have accepted Christ. We may believe we have accepted Him, but until the end, there is no blessed assurance, which is why all those verses preach perseverance to the end.

I do know that God's elect shall persevere to the end. I do not know for a fact that I am one of the elect, or anyone else for that matter.

looking4jesus
Nov 9th 2008, 06:11 PM
:agree:

100% with you on that, but I even go one step further. Not only can we not judge if a person is saved or not, we cannot even judge if we ourselves are saved.

We are to make our election sure, but there is no guarantee that we are when we have accepted Christ. We may believe we have accepted Him, but until the end, there is no blessed assurance, which is why all those verses preach perseverance to the end.

I do know that God's elect shall persevere to the end. I do not know for a fact that I am one of the elect, or anyone else for that matter.

Hmmm can you support that with some scripture pelase..
Because if I understand you you are sayin gthat you are not sure of your own salvation but your hoping it to be so is that correct?
thanks
God Bless

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 06:15 PM
:agree:

100% with you on that, but I even go one step further. Not only can we not judge if a person is saved or not, we cannot even judge if we ourselves are saved.

We are to make our election sure, but there is no guarantee that we are when we have accepted Christ. We may believe we have accepted Him, but until the end, there is no blessed assurance, which is why all those verses preach perseverance to the end.

I do know that God's elect shall persevere to the end. I do not know for a fact that I am one of the elect, or anyone else for that matter.
I disagree with this and here's why:
I John 5
13-These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

looking4jesus
Nov 9th 2008, 06:19 PM
I disagree with this and here's why:
I John 5
13-These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Me tooo

The Bible tells us several ways to confirm that we are God's children and that He is at work in our lives. The main way that we know that we are saved is because God has given us His Spirit, the Holy Spirit, to be with us and in us forever.

(Isaiah 11:2 NIV) The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. The Holy Spirit is at work in the believers life bringing wisdom, knowledge, understanding, power, counsel, and the fear of the Lord; all from God's heart to our heart.

As we hear and obey God's voice speaking to us through His Holy Spirit we are transformed into the image of Christ and we experience the fruit of the Spirit in our life. (Galatians 5:22-25 NIV) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, {23} gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. {24} Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. {25} Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.


God Bless

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 07:13 PM
Here's a question I've got, generally --

If OSAS is true, then what happens in the following scenario: a young person accepts Christ, starts to live for Christ, and then falls away from Christ and stops living for Him or even admitting that He exists. Is this person still saved? Will God pull this person back to Him? Let's assume that this person was actually, genuinely a Christian, and lets not use the argument "well, they must not have been really saved".

This scenario fits many, many people I know. I LIKE the OSAS position and hope that it's true, but this part of it's always bothered me. I'd love to know for sure that God creates us, saves us, and then nothing WE do can change that.... but if someone turns their back on God and walks away, does salvation still hold?

If OSAS is absolutely true, then there are a LOT more saved people walking around in this world today than we or even they would suspect.

Greetings CoffeeCat,

This is why I argue for perserverance of the saints (POTS). When we say once saved always saved it implies no responsibility on the part of the believer. But when we argue for perserverance of the saints, we are saying there is a struggle going on within between the desires of our flesh, the world, and Satan and the Spirit now residing in us. The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Mt 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Armed with this truth, we now look to Christ to complete what He has begun in us (Heb 12:2), in spite of our weakness. We will again and again in this life stumble and fall, and somtimes we will appear to turn our backs on Christ, but the simple truth remains, that IF we have truly been born again of the Spirit of God then we are eternally secure in Him. So, if we look within our own strength to carry us....we will fall....But when we look to Him for strength and assurance we can be strong knowing:

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 07:20 PM
Any sin no matter how little is more than enough to keep you out of heaven abd doomed to hell. That is why Jesus came .Salvation is never by works it cannot be so. If you can loose it you never had it to begin with. Jesu dies once and for all for our sins not again and again. Your are born again once and forever. Now you can make a big messed out of your life and God can even take you out of the world and cut your life short but you will stil be saved. The Holy Spirit stays inside you always you can deny him but he will never deny you.

Satans lie is to accused the saved that be careful lest you loose your salvation. this makes a mock of God and brings down what Jesus did on the croos to a effect not of Grace but by works of msn.
God Bless


Looking4Jesus---If you can loose it you never had it to begin with.


This is a contradiction.

You cannot lose what you never had. If you lost it, then you must have had it.

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 07:24 PM
This is a contradiction.

You cannot lose what you never had. If you lost it, then you must have had it.

Isn't that the whole point Butch? Obviously they never had it, so obviously they did not lose what they did not have. In other words to have salvation, means you cannot lose it, and if you did think it was lost, then you never had it in the first place.

Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 07:25 PM
I have always believed OSAS, but I believe that OSAS is actually AS. Before you were born, you were either chosen or not. God loved Jacob but hated Esau and this was before either had done anything good or bad, while they were still in the womb.

As for sin causing one to lose salvation, I have mentioned before about lying to your children when you state "Santa Claus is coming to town". It is a lie, a sin, and also misleading little ones. A lot of those against OSAS will justify this saying "That sin isn't bad enough to lose salvation".

Now, I move to one that would be. Suicide.

I think most everyone agree that suicide is a sin. Suicide is certainly a sin that is impossible to repent of. However, Jesus stated there is only one unforgiveable sin.

Either Suicide is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit OR suicide is a forgiveable sin and one that was forgiven when the person who committed it was chosen before he/she was born.

Yuke



Yuke--- Before you were born, you were either chosen or not. God loved Jacob but hated Esau and this was before either had done anything good or bad, while they were still in the womb.


Jacob was chosen before He was born to serve. God did not hate Esau before He was born. If you want to know why God hated Esau read the book of Obadiah.

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 07:26 PM
Well said when a person accept Jesus Christ and is saved it is a one time past, present and future event.
god Bless

Can you show a single Scripture that says future sins are preforgiven???

CFJ
Nov 9th 2008, 07:26 PM
Here's a question I've got, generally --

If OSAS is true, then what happens in the following scenario: a young person accepts Christ, starts to live for Christ, and then falls away from Christ and stops living for Him or even admitting that He exists. Is this person still saved? Will God pull this person back to Him? Let's assume that this person was actually, genuinely a Christian, and lets not use the argument "well, they must not have been really saved".



This is exactly what happened to me. I've falled away for 5 years and God pulled me back to Him. Obviously I've made choices, but when looking back, it was not me making these choices, but God working in me. I've made these choices without conciously thinking or reasoning about it, it happened in a spontaneous way.

When looking back, I thank God and God alone for this, there is nothing I can think of, that is worthy in what I've done at the time. Same thing happened when I was saved 5 years earlier, it was God working in me and all the glory is His... and His alone!

All our prayers tells the true side of salvation. Who do we thank for this, our own free will or God's grace?

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 07:29 PM
Here's a question I've got, generally --

If OSAS is true, then what happens in the following scenario: a young person accepts Christ, starts to live for Christ, and then falls away from Christ and stops living for Him or even admitting that He exists. Is this person still saved? Will God pull this person back to Him? Let's assume that this person was actually, genuinely a Christian, and lets not use the argument "well, they must not have been really saved".

This scenario fits many, many people I know. I LIKE the OSAS position and hope that it's true, but this part of it's always bothered me. I'd love to know for sure that God creates us, saves us, and then nothing WE do can change that.... but if someone turns their back on God and walks away, does salvation still hold?



If OSAS is absolutely true, then there are a LOT more saved people walking around in this world today than we or even they would suspect.

Hebrews 3:12 ( KJV ) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

A person can depart from Christ.

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 07:32 PM
In my opinion? God will try to guide the person back to a family relationship. The measures will be increasing more focused and strict or harsh. If the person continues to rebel, God will take him out of this world rather than "lose" him for etenity or allow him to bring shame on the name of Christ.

Hebrews 6:4-8

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

I adjusted you quote.

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 07:34 PM
Dear Yuke I am new here and I like to make friends with everyone I can so please take no ofense but You nor I nor anyone but God can say if a person is saved or not. we cannot Judge this it is only for God to Judge is a person is truly saved.
God Bless you


1 John 5:13 ( KJV ) 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 07:36 PM
:agree:

100% with you on that, but I even go one step further. Not only can we not judge if a person is saved or not, we cannot even judge if we ourselves are saved.

We are to make our election sure, but there is no guarantee that we are when we have accepted Christ. We may believe we have accepted Him, but until the end, there is no blessed assurance, which is why all those verses preach perseverance to the end.

I do know that God's elect shall persevere to the end. I do not know for a fact that I am one of the elect, or anyone else for that matter.



1 John 5:13 ( KJV ) 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 07:37 PM
Can you show a single Scripture that says future sins are preforgiven???

Mr 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 07:39 PM
Hebrews 3:12 ( KJV ) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
A person can depart from Christ.


That verse doesn't say a person in unbelief can depart from Christ, and lose their salvation. It says that an evil heart of UNBELIEF can depart from the living God.

looking4jesus
Nov 9th 2008, 07:40 PM
This is exactly what happened to me. I've falled away for 5 years and God pulled me back to Him. Obviously I've made choices, but when looking back, it was not me making these choices, but God working in me. I've made these choices without conciously thinking or reasoning about it, it happened in a spontaneous way.

When looking back, I thank God and God alone for this, there is nothing I can think of, that is worthy in what I've done at the time. Same thing happened when I was saved 5 years earlier, it was God working in me and all the glory is His... and His alone!

All our prayers tells the true side of salvation. Who do we thank for this, our own free will or God's grace?

Exactly brother in Jesus Christ. This is how it works.
The Holy Spirit will bring you back or God will take you out of the world.
It is as simple as this.
Why some keep such a strong faith that it is by works not grace and by works you can loose what you once had that was given by Grace only is beyond me.
God Bless you
Randy

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 07:42 PM
Isn't that the whole point Butch? Obviously they never had it, so obviously they did not lose what they did not have. In other words to have salvation, means you cannot lose it, and if you did think it was lost, then you never had it in the first place.

Blessings,
RW

Sorry Roger, but this is not true. The statement was if you lost it you never had it. If you lost it then you MUST have had it. You cannot lose what you do not have. I cannot lose a dollar if I don't have a dollar. In order for me to lose a dollar I must possess a dollar. So the statement is a contradiction. If a person loses salvation then they MUST have had salvation.

looking4jesus
Nov 9th 2008, 07:43 PM
Hebrews 3:12 ( KJV ) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

A person can depart from Christ.

Any one can depart but that scripture you quoted is not speaking of a saved person. It is speaking of departing from the knowledge of Gods words and for sure many will hear and only some will follow.
God bless
randy

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 07:47 PM
Sorry Roger, but this is not true. The statement was if you lost it you never had it. If you lost it then you MUST have had it. You cannot lose what you do not have. I cannot lose a dollar if I don't have a dollar. In order for me to lose a dollar I must possess a dollar. So the statement is a contradiction. If a person loses salvation then they MUST have had salvation.

That's the point of the statement!!! They never had it, so how could they lose it??? Like you said, you can't lose what you don't possess!

Let's look more closely at your analogy of a dollar. To lose the dollar you must possess it...correct, how can you lose it if you don't possess it? Answer...you can't! That's the point of the statement. It says you cannot lose what you did not possess, so if you think you were saved and then lost your salvation it must be that you never possessed salvation in the first place! Why? Because salvation is eternally secure!

Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 07:50 PM
Mr 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Where does this speak of future sins??? The Scriptures say all kind of sins will be forgiven.

If you claim the Mark verse means every single sin, then you have universalism, because the Scripture says sons of men not believers. So do you believe every single person who ever lived will be saved?

If you look at the verse from Titus this cannot mean future sins because Paul also said this,


Romans 3:25 ( KJV ) 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

He is a propitiation for sins that are past.

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 08:00 PM
That's the point of the statement!!! They never had it, so how could they lose it??? Like you said, you can't lose what you don't possess!

Let's look more closely at your analogy of a dollar. To lose the dollar you must possess it...correct, how can you lose it if you don't possess it? Answer...you can't! That's the point of the statement. It says you cannot lose what you did not possess, so if you think you were saved and then lost your salvation it must be that you never possessed salvation in the first place! Why? Because salvation is eternally secure!

Blessings,
RW

Salvation is not eternally secure, that is why you do not understand what I am saying, here is the original quote,


If you can loose it you never had it to begin with.

He said if you can loose it you never had, this is a contradiction. If you can lose it you "MUST" have had it.

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 08:03 PM
Any one can depart but that scripture you quoted is not speaking of a saved person. It is speaking of departing from the knowledge of Gods words and for sure many will hear and only some will follow.
God bless
randy

That Scripture is not speaking of a saved person???


Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

I think this descibes a saved person.

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 08:07 PM
Where does this speak of future sins??? The Scriptures say all kind of sins will be forgiven.

If you claim the Mark verse means every single sin, then you have universalism, because the Scripture says sons of men not believers. So do you believe every single person who ever lived will be saved?

Because Christ forgives ALL sin...that makes me a universalist? No, that makes Christ's propitiation for ALL sin complete. Just because Christ's atonement is sufficient to save all men, does not mean that all men will be saved. Christ has atoned for the sins of His people (all of them) on the cross, and Christ is the expiator for the whole world. This means that the blood of Christ shed at Calvary paid the sin debt in full for all who are in Him. And it means that the blood of Christ shed at Calvary satisfied the wrath of God against ALL sin, and for those who die in unbelief their sins too will be done away in the lake of fire at the Judgment.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



If you look at the verse from Titus this cannot mean future sins because Paul also said this,

Romans 3:25 ( KJV ) 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

He is a propitiation for sins that are past.

Either Christ has paid the sin debt for His people in full at the cross, or He is a liar. Would you argue that His sacrifice was not sufficient to save His people from all sins?

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Many Blessings,
RW

looking4jesus
Nov 9th 2008, 08:13 PM
That Scripture is not speaking of a saved person???


Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

I think this descibes a saved person.

No it is speaking of departing a non beliver can depart from hearing the Gospel. Back to the other point All means all sin. Past , present and future.
You see to not belive this means that you wish Jesus to die angain and again and again and you feel that a person needs to be born again and born again and born again that is not how it is or how Gods word shows us it is. It is a once in a lifetime deal my friend and covers you completley-

I have always wonder what is it that makes some people want to belive different? Is it pride in their ownself fro thinking they have been faithful?
the truth is your stil in a fallen body which is full of sin no matter what you do. The only reason your saved is because our God looks at the blood of his Son Jesus and does not see your sin but sees you clean because God is looking through his son Jesus. So no matter what you do by your works it is trash in the eyes of God . It is only through Jesus that you become clense and that is for all your sins not just the past one for God has known his own sheep because you were ever born and your not big enough or god enough to change that so just let it be and praise God that he has chosen you not that you have chosen him.
God Bless you
Randy

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 08:14 PM
That Scripture is not speaking of a saved person???


Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

I think this descibes a saved person.

Though the Apostle referred to them all as "holy brethren" and partakers of Christ, he was very aware that some among them were not in the house of Christ. Hence the warning, to "hear", and not to harden their hearts as the fathers in the wilderness had, and why they would not enter into His rest.

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 08:27 PM
Because Christ forgives ALL sin...that makes me a universalist? No, that makes Christ's propitiation for ALL sin complete. Just because Christ's atonement is sufficient to save all men, does not mean that all men will be saved. Christ has atoned for the sins of His people (all of them) on the cross, and Christ is the expiator for the whole world. This means that the blood of Christ shed at Calvary paid the sin debt in full for all who are in Him. And it means that the blood of Christ shed at Calvary satisfied the wrath of God against ALL sin, and for those who die in unbelief their sins too will be done away in the lake of fire at the Judgment.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



Either Christ has paid the sin debt for His people in full at the cross, or He is a liar. Would you argue that His sacrifice was not sufficient to save His people from all sins?

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

Deal with the verse, It says Christ is a propitiation for sins that are past. When a person gets saved their past sins are forgiven, only their past sins. Christ is a propitiation for all sin, but when you get saved only you past sins are forgiven. Future sins are forgiven when they are confessed.

1 John 1:8-9 ( KJV ) 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John says "IF" we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. If all of our future sins were forgiven when we were saved, what is God going to forgive when we confess??? John was writing to believers, people who were already saved. Why is He telling them that God will forgive their sins if they confess, if all of their sins were forgiven when they were saved???

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 08:32 PM
Though the Apostle referred to them all as "holy brethren" and partakers of Christ, he was very aware that some among them were not in the house of Christ. Hence the warning, to "hear", and not to harden their hearts as the fathers in the wilderness had, and why they would not enter into His rest.

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Blessings,
RW


Roger,

Please tell me how you know what Paul was well aware of. Please tell me how you know what Paul knew.

Do you see what the Scripture say that you bolded? We are Christ's house if we hold fast the confidence to the end. So they have the confidence, they belong to Christ, however, the writer says they will not be Christ's house if they do not hold fast. He makes it clear that they will not remain in Christ if they don't hold fast the confidence that they have.

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 08:43 PM
No it is speaking of departing a non beliver can depart from hearing the Gospel. Back to the other point All means all sin. Past , present and future.
You see to not belive this means that you wish Jesus to die angain and again and again and you feel that a person needs to be born again and born again and born again that is not how it is or how Gods word shows us it is. It is a once in a lifetime deal my friend and covers you completley-

I have always wonder what is it that makes some people want to belive different? Is it pride in their ownself fro thinking they have been faithful?
the truth is your stil in a fallen body which is full of sin no matter what you do. The only reason your saved is because our God looks at the blood of his Son Jesus and does not see your sin but sees you clean because God is looking through his son Jesus. So no matter what you do by your works it is trash in the eyes of God . It is only through Jesus that you become clense and that is for all your sins not just the past one for God has known his own sheep because you were ever born and your not big enough or god enough to change that so just let it be and praise God that he has chosen you not that you have chosen him.
God Bless you
Randy

No my friend,

The writer of Hebrews makes it quite clear that He is speaking to Christians.

All cannot mean all sin unless you are going to deny what Paul said. Paul Clearly says that God make Christ a propitiation for sins that are Past not future.

Also Pleas answer the the post regarding why John would tell His readers to confess their sins an get forgiveness from God.

You always wonder what makes some people believe differently? The answer would be Scripture. Please show me a single verse of Scripture that states that a believer cannot turn away form God.

What ever good works I do God looks at as trash ????????? Can you show me this from Scripture????? An I 'll say you some time, if you are going to Isaiah, don't bother. That Scripture is Isaiah making a prayer of penitence to God. It is Isaiah who says Israel's righteousness is as filthy rags it is not God making that statement.

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 08:57 PM
Roger,

Deal with the verse, It says Christ is a propitiation for sins that are past. When a person gets saved their past sins are forgiven, only their past sins. Christ is a propitiation for all sin, but when you get saved only you past sins are forgiven. Future sins are forgiven when they are confessed.

Butch,

We can't simply find one verse that satisfies our understanding and ignore the rest of Scripture that shows ALL sins were forgiven at the cross. If Ro 3:25 were the only verse that spoke about forgiveness of sins, then we would be likely to conclude as you do, using only one verse. But what about all the other verses myself and others have directed you to that clearly do not support your opinion that only past sins are forgiven? You'll also notice that those verses that speak of ALL sins as forgiven, say nothing about repenting of them first.

And don't jump to the conclusion that means I don't believe we don't have to repent when we sin. Salvation is of the Lord, and it is not dependent upon our repentance, we repent because we have been saved, not to be saved or to remain saved.



1 John 1:8-9 ( KJV ) 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John says "IF" we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. If all of our future sins were forgiven when we were saved, what is God going to forgive when we confess??? John was writing to believers, people who were already saved. Why is He telling them that God will forgive their sins if they confess, if all of their sins were forgiven when they were saved???

What is John warning against in vs 8?

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Because no one is freed from sin; either from a sinful nature or from the sin that proceeds from the nature of evil. To claim we have no sin is to be deceived (to remain in unbelief), so John tells us to confess our sins instead of denying them because "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Why do we need a Savior if we deny we have sin? What would we need to be saved from, if we do not admit that we have sin?

Many blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 09:04 PM
Roger,

Please tell me how you know what Paul was well aware of. Please tell me how you know what Paul knew.

Do you see what the Scripture say that you bolded? We are Christ's house if we hold fast the confidence to the end. So they have the confidence, they belong to Christ, however, the writer says they will not be Christ's house if they do not hold fast. He makes it clear that they will not remain in Christ if they don't hold fast the confidence that they have.

Butch,

If Paul is the author of Hebrews, we know what he means because he plainly tells us. Again, if this were the only passage of Scripture we had, we might draw the same conclusion you have. But how do you reconcile this with the passages of Scripture that tell us we are eternally secure in Him? Shall we just read the verses that agree with our doctrine, and throw the rest of the Bible away? If our understanding of any passage of Scripture causes contradiction in the Word of God, then there is something wrong with our understanding, because there is nothing wrong with the Word.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Many Blessings,
RW

looking4jesus
Nov 9th 2008, 09:06 PM
No my friend,

The writer of Hebrews makes it quite clear that He is speaking to Christians.

All cannot mean all sin unless you are going to deny what Paul said. Paul Clearly says that God make Christ a propitiation for sins that are Past not future.

Also Pleas answer the the post regarding why John would tell His readers to confess their sins an get forgiveness from God.

You always wonder what makes some people believe differently? The answer would be Scripture. Please show me a single verse of Scripture that states that a believer cannot turn away form God.

What ever good works I do God looks at as trash ????????? Can you show me this from Scripture????? An I 'll say you some time, if you are going to Isaiah, don't bother. That Scripture is Isaiah making a prayer of penitence to God. It is Isaiah who says Israel's righteousness is as filthy rags it is not God making that statement.

First no offense ever ..I mean trash coming from a fallen human being such as we are. Yes we are new creations in Christ however we ares till in a fallen nature and yes we can fall away but this in itself does not mean you loose your salvation. Look at Peter how close he was to our Lord Jesus yet when fear came he deny our lord not once but three times.
god knows how very weak we are this is why he sent his Holy Spirit to reside in us. You are correct we are to confess our sins and be forgiven but even if we forget to do so their is a confessor inside us the Holy Spirit that will do this for us. Belive me in my whole heart I know where you are comming from, to obey God is a great thing, to follow God is a great thing, to be a servent of God is a great thing but greater than all these is the Grace our God has shown us. Once you are convicted and led bt the Holy Spirit to recieved Jesus Christ as your savior for the forgiveness of sins you have now ebetered into a new relationship with God never to go back. You may in your human form go back and even deny him but he willnever deny you you are his forever. When you turn your back on Jesus , Jesus is looking at your back when you turn around they Jesus is looking at you face to face hence the quality of the fellowship of Jesus is correctly by your works but the salvation is sealed forever and ever Amen

God Bless
Randy

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 09:12 PM
Butch,

We can't simply find one verse that satisfies our understanding and ignore the rest of Scripture that shows ALL sins were forgiven at the cross. If Ro 3:25 were the only verse that spoke about forgiveness of sins, then we would be likely to conclude as you do, using only one verse. But what about all the other verses myself and others have directed you to that clearly do not support your opinion that only past sins are forgiven? You'll also notice that those verses that speak of ALL sins as forgiven, say nothing about repenting of them first.

And don't jump to the conclusion that means I don't believe we don't have to repent when we sin. Salvation is of the Lord, and it is not dependent upon our repentance, we repent because we have been saved, not to be saved or to remain saved.

What is John warning against in vs 8?

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Because no one is freed from sin; either from a sinful nature or from the sin that proceeds from the nature of evil. To claim we have no sin is to be deceived (to remain in unbelief), so John tells us to confess our sins instead of denying them because "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Why do we need a Savior if we deny we have sin? What would we need to be saved from, if we do not admit that we have sin?

Many blessings,
RW

Roger it is not Me that is ignoring Scripture. I have not ignored a single Scripture. You on the other hand have not dealt with Romans 3:25.

I said, all sin, refers to all kinds of sins. this fits perfectly with Romans 3:25. I also asked why John would tell His readers to confess their sins and receive forgiveness from God if their sins were already forgiven?

Your interpretation does not fit with Scripture. If all sins means future sins, then please explain why Paul said that Christ was a propitiation for sins that are past. And please explain why John would tell His readers to ask for forgiveness if their sin were already forgiven. Why does God have to cleanse them from all unrighteousness, if they have already been eternally cleansed from all unrighteousness?

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 09:39 PM
First no offense ever ..I mean trash coming from a fallen human being such as we are. Yes we are new creations in Christ however we ares till in a fallen nature and yes we can fall away but this in itself does not mean you loose your salvation. Look at Peter how close he was to our Lord Jesus yet when fear came he deny our lord not once but three times.
god knows how very weak we are this is why he sent his Holy Spirit to reside in us. You are correct we are to confess our sins and be forgiven but even if we forget to do so their is a confessor inside us the Holy Spirit that will do this for us. Belive me in my whole heart I know where you are comming from, to obey God is a great thing, to follow God is a great thing, to be a servent of God is a great thing but greater than all these is the Grace our God has shown us. Once you are convicted and led bt the Holy Spirit to recieved Jesus Christ as your savior for the forgiveness of sins you have now ebetered into a new relationship with God never to go back. You may in your human form go back and even deny him but he willnever deny you you are his forever. When you turn your back on Jesus , Jesus is looking at your back when you turn around they Jesus is looking at you face to face hence the quality of the fellowship of Jesus is correctly by your works but the salvation is sealed forever and ever Amen

God Bless
Randy

I was not offended, I was just pointing out that God does not see our works as trash or filthy rags. And yes it is the grace of God that saves us. However a person can turn from God as I have shown. So many people think our works mean nothing, this is completely wrong. Let me ask you this question, it was Paul who said we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. My question then is this, Does Paul know that we saved by faith??? Let me assume you answer is yes. So, if Paul knows that we are saved by faith, why does He Say this?

Romans 2:4-10 ( KJV ) 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Paul says that everyone will be judged by their works and those who did good will get eternal life, those who do not do good do not get eternal life.

So Paul says we are not saved by works and He says we are saved by works, which is it. These two must be reconciled, we cannot have contradiction in the Scriptures. We must look at the context of these verses to determine what Paul is speaking of. So let's look at the fist one where He says we are not saved by works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 ( KJV ) 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Ephesians 2:10-16 ( KJV ) 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:



They, the Ephesians were afar off and outside the covenants of God. Christ brought them near, how? He broke down the partition, having abolished the enmity. what is the enmity? the law of commandments contained in the ordinances. The works that Paul is speaking of here is the works of the law, He is not speaking of good deeds, that is what we were created for. So Paul is saying here like He does else were that by the works of the law no flesh shall be saved.

Now, in contrast to this notice what Paul says in Romans 2, those who in continuance in well doing (good deeds) seek immortality and eternal life. So Paul says that God "will" judge everyone according to their deeds, those who have done good eternal life, those who have done evil, indignation and wrath. Jesus said the same thing.


Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

looking4jesus
Nov 9th 2008, 09:41 PM
I don't think those that know OSAS for the lie it is would even come close to saying that "we lose our salvation with every little sin".

ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER

Because of the eternal purpose of God toward the objects of His love, because of His freedom to exercise grace toward the meritless on the ground of the propitiatory blood of Jesus Christ, because of the very nature of the divine gift of eternal life, because of the present and unending intercession and advocacy of Jesus Christ in heaven, because of the immutability of the unchangeable covenants of God, because of the regenerating, abiding presence of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of all who are saved, we and all true believers everywhere, once saved shall be kept saved forever. God is a holy and righteous Father and that, since He cannot overlook the sin of His children, He will, when they persistently sin, chasten them and correct them in infinite love; but having undertaken to save them and keep them forever, apart from all human merit, He, who cannot fail, will in the end present every one of them faultless before the presence of His glory and conformed to the image of His Son.
(John 5:24 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+5%3A24); 10:28; 13:1; 14:16–17; 17:11; Rom. 8:29 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Rom.+8%3A29); 1 Cor. 6:19 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Cor.+6%3A19); Heb. 7:25 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Heb.+7%3A25); 1 John 2:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+John+2%3A1)–2; 5:13; Jude 24 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Jude+24))

God Bless
Randy

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 09:55 PM
As on many Bible topics, I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, But God has showed me an angle on the once saved always saved issue, that I would like to share with all who will read this thread. To start with, let me say that there are many verses on the left side ( the side that says we can lose our salvation ) that I struggle with. But there are many verses on the right side ( or what I think is the right side, where I can't do anything to lose my salvation,Where I didn't do anything to earn my salvation, Not my works, But Jesus did the work for me, so to say that I can lose my salvation is to say that His works was not good enough for me, !!) that the other side can't answer either. Now here is the angle, I have heard from the left side many many times, that once we have called upon the Name of the Lord ( the key here is if we call upon the name of the Lord, we must then make Him Lord ) but even if we are saved and right before we are called home either way by the grave or the rapture, if we sin just before we are called home we can lose our salvation. IF this is true then would someone please explain the verses

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Now here is the question if we lose our salvation with every little sin, where does Chastisement come in, for if God kicks us out of the Family with every little sin, then there is no need for Him to reprove, rebuke and then chasten us, for we are not sons/daughters but bastards and we have no Father, and we only become sons of God through faith in our adoption by Jesus Christ our big Brother. Please do not over load this thread with all the verses you have, where you believe we can lose our salvation just please keep the thoughts you share to the answering to my one question. if we can lose our salvation by sinning after we come to His knowledge then where does the doctrine of chastisement come in???

Here I go I am saved, but I look at a woman with lust on my mind, that small little voice speaks up and says you know you really shouldn't think like that(reprove). But I keep looking then that voice becomes alot more stern I TOLD YOU YOU REALLY SHOULDN"T BE THINKING LIKE THAT!(rebuke) but this is really a good looking woman Lord, and You really did bless her. Bam here comes out the whip(chastisement), But by the whip I know that I am still one of His because whom He chastens He also loves For the Father chastens His children not the Lost.

Or here I go I look at a woman with lust on my mind, Bam I burn!! For the Father lied when He said those He chastens He also loves.

Now I don't mean to be so blunt here, but I know no other way to express this, it all comes down to our faith and where is, or whom is our faith in.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus is my Author and He is my Finisher of my faith, I didn't write my plan of salvation and I can't keep it. Thats why My faith needs to be In Jesus not in me.

Heb 11:6 (http://bibleforums.org/heb+11:6)Butwithout faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Yes There is a calling for His Children to Live right, so if the righteousness has to exceed the righteousness of scribes and Pharisees , How will any ever enter into heaven? I plea the BLOOD, not my works :pp

Keith,

The whole issue revolves not around what God can do, and not around a single sin here and there. The issue is turning from Christ. Salvation is lost in turning away from Christ. If we are in Christ, we are forgiven,


Romans 8:1 ( KJV ) 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


The problem is when one is no longer "in" Christ Jesus. The question that needs to be answered is this, can a person turn away from Christ? The Scriptures are clear on this, all of the Scriptures that you speak of saying you can lose your salvation deal with a person turning away from Christ.
God will never leave us, but He won't force us to stay. The places in Scripture that speak of losing your salvation are speaking of people leaving Christ. Paul says in several places, "if" you continue in the faith. In other words, if you don't turn away. Jesus says, he who endures to the end shall be saved. In other words, he who does not turn away. The writer of Hebrews says, we are Christ's house "if" we hold fast our confidence, in other words, if we don't turn away. God is faithful and He will keep His word, however, He will not make us stay against our will.

The verses that you quoted from Hebrews are just that. God chastens His children, as I said if you commit a sin, that does not mean you have been rejected. And you are not rejected every time you sin. You are rejected when you reject Christ.

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 10:00 PM
II Corinthians 1
21-Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
22-who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

How does one become "unsealed" if God did the sealing? I believe you can quench the Spirit for He will not force you to do anything, When we grieve Him, He is silent but He is still there, in our heart.

looking4jesus
Nov 9th 2008, 10:04 PM
II Corinthians 1
21-Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
22-who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

How does one become "unsealed" if God did the sealing? I believe you can quench the Spirit for He will not force you to do anything, When we grieve Him, He is silent but He is still there, in our heart.

Exactly Gods seals unlike man made seasl neevr wear out!
The come with your own lifetime guarantee!!
God Bless
Randy

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 10:08 PM
ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER

Because of the eternal purpose of God toward the objects of His love, because of His freedom to exercise grace toward the meritless on the ground of the propitiatory blood of Jesus Christ, because of the very nature of the divine gift of eternal life, because of the present and unending intercession and advocacy of Jesus Christ in heaven, because of the immutability of the unchangeable covenants of God, because of the regenerating, abiding presence of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of all who are saved, we and all true believers everywhere, once saved shall be kept saved forever. God is a holy and righteous Father and that, since He cannot overlook the sin of His children, He will, when they persistently sin, chasten them and correct them in infinite love; but having undertaken to save them and keep them forever, apart from all human merit, He, who cannot fail, will in the end present every one of them faultless before the presence of His glory and conformed to the image of His Son.
(John 5:24 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+5%3A24); 10:28; 13:1; 14:16–17; 17:11; Rom. 8:29 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Rom.+8%3A29); 1 Cor. 6:19 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Cor.+6%3A19); Heb. 7:25 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Heb.+7%3A25); 1 John 2:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+John+2%3A1)–2; 5:13; Jude 24 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Jude+24))

God Bless
Randy

Who is the author? Why should we believe what He says? What are his credentials? You could post many more passages like that, but they're just someone's opinion. What credentials does he have that we should pay attention to what He says?

Even more importantly, please tell me why it is that I should put my eternal life into what he says. Suppose I follow Him and he is wrong, what happens to me???????

He says God saves us apart from all human effort, so suppose I do nothing my whole life and then at the judgment Jesus says how come you didn't feed the poor, and visit the sick and widows, how come you didn't clothe the naked? And I say because this guy said I didn't have to. What do you think Jesus is going to say????



Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Romans 2:2-10 ( KJV ) 2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

My friend, whenever you see anyone that says your deeds don't matter, run.

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 10:10 PM
II Corinthians 1
21-Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
22-who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

How does one become "unsealed" if God did the sealing? I believe you can quench the Spirit for He will not force you to do anything, When we grieve Him, He is silent but He is still there, in our heart.

You are correct, he will not force you to do anything, including staying with Him if you chose not to. You are sealed, yes, but If you want out God will allow you to go.

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 10:11 PM
Exactly Gods seals unlike man made seasl neevr wear out!
The come with your own lifetime guarantee!!
God Bless
Randy

It is guaranteed on God's part, however He does not force one to stay.

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 10:16 PM
That I disagree with. But, believe as you will. This is an issue I refuse to argue or debate. I will tell you what I believe and why but each person must come to their own understanding in their own way and in God's time.

Romans 8

38-For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39-nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I believe I am one of those "created things".

Thaddaeus
Nov 9th 2008, 10:24 PM
Can you show a single Scripture that says future sins are preforgiven???

Mr 3:28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:


all means past present and future, there's the one verse you ask for

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 10:27 PM
Which sins of yours or mine were past when Jesus said, "It is finished"?

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 10:29 PM
Mr 3:28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:


all means past present and future, there's the one verse you ask for

Keith, as I pointed out if all in this verse means past present and future, you have universalism because it says all sins will be forgiven unto the sons of men.

Can you please reconcile this with Romans 3:25,

Romans 3:25 ( KJV ) 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

If all sins means all kinds of sin then we have no problem.

Also notice Jesus said all sins will be forgiven, He didn't say all sins will be forgiven the moment you believe.

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 10:33 PM
Which sins of yours or mine were past when Jesus said, "It is finished"?

When you believe your past sins are forgiven.

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 10:33 PM
Butch, Jesus paid the price for ALL the sins of the world, It isn't about sin any longer, it's about whether or not you accept the gift of salvation.

I Timothy 4
10-For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

The gift is ineffective if it isn't accepted.

Thaddaeus
Nov 9th 2008, 10:34 PM
Which sins of yours or mine were past when Jesus said, "It is finished"?
it is finished is referring to his work that he had do to while here on earth : to me what does it mean to you? that sin was finished. no way just look around dude, sin is still abound, there were many people other than just you and me Brother I think the man of the right of Christ sins were before (past) and our sins are not forgiven til we call upon the Name of the Lord and the Blood is applied so the sins you did before you called upon the name of the Lord would be our past sins ????

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 10:34 PM
When you believe your past sins are forgiven.
ALL of your sins are forgiven. They have been since Jesus said, "It is finished" - what would He have meant otherwise?

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 10:36 PM
Butch, Jesus paid the price for ALL the sins of the world, It isn't about sin any longer, it's about whether or not you accept the gift of salvation.

I Timothy 4
10-For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

The gift is ineffective if it isn't accepted.

I agree, however sin does still matter. If a preson believes and then lives their life in adultery, they will not be saved. Paul said adulterers will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 10:38 PM
it is finished is referring to his work that he had do to while here on earth : to me what does it mean to you? that sin was finished. no way just look around dude, sin is still abound
Sin is still in the world and will continue to be but the price for it (eternal separation from God) has been paid in full.
Colossians 2

13-When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14-having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 10:38 PM
ALL of your sins are forgiven. They have been since Jesus said, "It is finished" - what would He have meant otherwise?

Did Jesus say all sins are forgiven? What was finished was the work that God had given Him to do.

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 10:40 PM
Sin is still in the world and will continue to be but the price for it (eternal separation from God) has been paid in full.
Colossians 2

13-When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14-having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Cancelled all of their trangressions, it doesn't say anyting about transgressions that will be committed in the future.

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 10:40 PM
I agree, however sin does still matter. If a preson believes and then lives their life in adultery, they will not be saved. Paul said adulterers will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Actually, I believe they are saved, they will just leave this life a whole lot sooner than they would have otherwise.
I think I already posted scripture to that effect earlier.

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 10:41 PM
Did Jesus say all sins are forgiven? What was finished was the work that God had given Him to do.
And what was that work?

Vhayes
Nov 9th 2008, 10:42 PM
Cancelled all of their trangressions, it doesn't say anyting about transgressions that will be committed in the future.
They were ALL in the future.

Butch5
Nov 10th 2008, 02:28 AM
Actually, I believe they are saved, they will just leave this life a whole lot sooner than they would have otherwise.
I think I already posted scripture to that effect earlier.

OK, if they are saved then live in sin they will not be saved at the judgment where we are actually saved. Paul said adulterers will not enter into the kingdom of heaven

Butch5
Nov 10th 2008, 02:29 AM
And what was that work?

He came to preach the gospel of the kingdom

Butch5
Nov 10th 2008, 02:30 AM
They were ALL in the future.

No, All of Pauls sins were not future when Christ died.

Vhayes
Nov 10th 2008, 03:46 AM
OK, if they are saved then live in sin they will not be saved at the judgment where we are actually saved. Paul said adulterers will not enter into the kingdom of heaven
Let's look at those verses in their entirety:
I Corinthians 6

5-I say this to your shame Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren,
6-but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?
7-Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8-On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9-Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10-nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11-Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Paul is talking about the unsaved. He then goes on to say BUT you WERE washed.

If you want to say a person will not enter heaven who has commited adultery, then you will have to say the same thing about anyone who has premarital sex, is jealous of his neighbors new corvette or place their family above God.

Please read Hebrews 6 and tell me what it says to you.

Thanks -
V

Vhayes
Nov 10th 2008, 03:47 AM
He came to preach the gospel of the kingdom
And what IS the gospel?

Vhayes
Nov 10th 2008, 03:48 AM
No, All of Pauls sins were not future when Christ died.
Paul was a Jew. How were Jews saved before Christ was crucified?

Thaddaeus
Nov 10th 2008, 05:58 AM
And what was that work?


Shed the blood so that our sins could be forgiven

Heb 9:22 (http://bibleforums.org/heb+9:22)And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood IS NO REMISSION.

looking4jesus
Nov 10th 2008, 04:38 PM
I found this to explain away the idea that OSAS is a false doctrine. Read on
God Bless
Randy



The Doctrine of Eternal Security

and its Key Passage


Why You Can Not Lose Your Salvation

Why OSAS is True

By

R.A. Coombes

In a related A-O Report article on Bible Translations/Versions we indicated that translating a word or phrase perfectly into another language such as English can be impossible to do perfectly. We mentioned one such example that could be found in Ephesians chapter 2 and verses 8 and 9.
This is one passage in the New Testament Greek that is totally, and completely untranslatable and maintain its exact meaning from the original Greek. This is perhaps the most critical passage in all of the Bible, for it gives us the full, complete formula for eternal life. This passage is so misunderstood and mistranslated that it was decided that it deserved its own special study on a website primarily devoted to Bible Prophecy.
The verse itself is not only a key verse for understanding salvation but also for understanding that salvation is indeed forever, and eternally secure. If you are one who has had doubts (and most have) the technical understanding of this passage should permanently allay such doubts as long as you remember these details. We would encourage you to print out this article and keep it safe for future follow up reference when doubts might creep up or when you run across someone else having doubts. Feel free to pass it around. Download this page into an E-mail and mail it to everyone you know whom you think would benefit from it. This is what it is put here for, to help you and others. So pass it around. Now lets get started with our study.

The passage in question is Ephesians 2:8 which states:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith"...
"For" = "te gar" or "gar" = Strong's code # 1063
The word "For" is a conjunction. It is a "connecting" word. When ever you see a "For" in the Bible and especially in the Apostle Paul's writing - just remember it means: "Hook me onto what went on before" or "Hook me up to what was just written before the "For." Also, "For" connotes the introduction of a reason to what was just said.

SSSSSSSOoooooooooooooooo, when we see the first word in Verse 8, we can say:

"FOR" - [Hook me up to what was said previously because it introduces "reason."
"By Grace" = Xariti (or chariti - as the "X" is a "Ch" sound) Strong's Code #5485
The word can carry a variety of different meanings in its root form - "xaris." Here are some of the lexical definitions as found in various Lexicons such as BAGD, Moulton, Liddell & Scott, Mounce, Thayer, Machen, and also Moulton-Milligan:


#1. That which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness, such as the grace of speech or looks or ability.
#2. Goodwill. lovingkindness, favor. Divine kindness, which is bestowed upon someone who does NOT DESERVE it. Undeserved, Unearned, Unmerited favor. A gift which is totally undeserved, unmerited and unearned by the recipient.' The favor or gift is freely given.
#3. A Divine gift or favor freely given in an over-abundance (as to be limitless) and never-ending.
#4. An act of giving thankfulness or appreciation after receiving a gift. Often applied for the act of prayer before or after a meal.

So, as we examine the definitions, we find that actually definition 2 and 3 are in effect the same for this passage.
Definition #2 merely underscores our prior status as undeserving of the "gift" yet given away freely with the only condition being acceptance being implied. But definition #3, because it is of Divine origin, also connotes to us the understand-ing that this gift is an over-abundant one, limitless, never-ending. This is further underscored by the verb next to it in the sentence sequential order.
Okay, let's now look at the key word, which illustrates our overall point about translation problems that makes this entire phrase, virtually untranslatable for a translation, which is restricted to proper English grammatical structure. We are talking about the next three words "are you saved" which are only two words in the Greek.
The word "saved" is actually made up of two Greek words which form what is called a "perfect participle".
"este" = you are = This is a verb that is an indicative, active present tense, second person plural.
"sesohsmenoi" = having been saved = This is the actual perfect participle. It is in fact a passive perfect participle that is nominative in agreement with its second person plural status.

Now that is all one big mouthful. Wait until you see its meaning translated.
The passive perfect participle means:
-
An action performed at some point in the past. That action has continued up to the present moment at which we read this. It is an action that continues past the moment we read it. It is an action, which continues INFINITELY FOREVER. It is an action that CANNOT BE STOPPED! It is an UNSTOPABLE, UNALTERABLE action.
-
It is an action that started in the past, continues into the present moment and then continues and continues and continues and continues, forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. In fact the English term "etc" or
"etcetera" or the three dot symbol ... ... for infinity could be used and applied literally for this word. So that we can take a look at the word in Greek itself - Sesohsmenoi.
Sesohsmenoi = #4982 =

#1. to save, rescue, preserve safe and unharmed, to keep safe and sound, to rescue as in to rescue from danger or destruction. To bring safely to. To deliver from. To set free from. All can be physical or spiritual in nature or both. To change one's mind - convert.
#2. to save or deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment. To be a partaker of salvation by Christ. To save from eternal, physical, spiritual death. The action of saving is done by someone on behalf of someone else. To be saved requires normally the actions of another who is not in jeopardy.
Sooooooo. Let's put together what we've already got.
For (Reason - hook me onto what just preceded) ... by an undeserved, unearned, unmerited gift, ...
you were saved -- at a point of time in the past that continues up until the present moment and will continue foreever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever ... ...
Actually, to faithfully reproduce the meaning would mean to never stop writing - forever. Now, how are you ever going to translate that into English?????? - The answer is that -- "You can't translate that fully and effectively into English and not have it break the normal English grammar and sentence structure and still be faithfully accurate to the original Greek text. Keep in mind that we haven't even finished with the phrase let alone the original Greek sentence itself.
Now, let's continue. The next word is "through faith".
Through is the Greek word "dia." Dia means "by agency of." It is a channel or a like an electrical conduit or like a pipe.

The following word is "Faith" and in Greek is the word "pisteuoh." = Strong's # 4100 thru 4102.

#1. To believe or to rationally think to be true, to be persuaded of based upon logic or evidence. It is not a "blind" acceptance.
#2. To be convinced or to trust based upon the evidence. A conviction of the truth of anything. A belief. To have a resolute confidence all of which based upon the evidence.

Now lets finish up the thought ... with the phrase in Ephesians 2:8 ... "and not of yourselves. It is a gift of God.
Here the word gift is not "chariti" or "xaris" but instead the word "dohrahn." It is another word the means "gift" in the normal sense.
Then Verse 9 finishes up the thought of verse 8 with ...
"Not of works, lest any man should boast."
The word "not" is self-explanatory and we do not need to go into the meaning of that word. However, "of" is not as it would appear.
"of" = "ek" = while it has various meanings as a preposition, in this usage it is best translated not merely as "of" -- but "OUT OF" because "ek" means "out of" not merely "of."

The next word is "works"
works = "ergohn" = an action. A deed. A work. Anything done or to be done. A duty.

#1. An action. A deed. A work. A duty. A deed.An accomplishment. Task.
#2. A trade. To trade. To work, to labour, to do business, to do something, to perform something. To Strive to perform, to practice,
#3. A worker, a practicer, a trader, a businessman, workman, labourer, an artist, a craftsman, a laborer.



So in this last phrase,

Not of works

means

not out of human effort.

Not out of human activity or activities.

Not out of a deed(s)
Not out of an action or actions
Not out of doing something or doing things
Not out of trades
Not out of works

And to our final phrase, lest any man should boast. Which carries the notion of being proud and boastful or cocky and arrogant, which itself would then be a sin. So, if your efforts could save you it would only be initially because then again you fall into sin by becoming cocky, arrogant, and boastful. So in other words, even if you could help save yourself, you would only fall right back into it again.
All my experiences have shown me that anyone who thinks they can lose their salvation and who challenges an OSAS (once saved always saved) believer is also someone who mixes their own human efforts with that of Jesus cross-work death and resurrection. In turn, they are always arrogant, boastful and cocky in regards to their views. Inside they are full of self-doubt and conflict.
These people fit the description of the Apostle Paul in Galatians 1: 6-9 in which Paul notes that such people are eternally damned because one cannot mix the cross-work of Christ with anything else including their own human efforts.
What we find so insidious in all of this is how a small amount of works can become mixed into the equation, subtly and deceptively. We all have an inner nature that wants to add something into the work that Christ has already done on our behalf. Works is like leaven/yeast. It starts out small and soon takes over everything if left to its own devices.


Lets review our translation of the passage again.
For (Reason - hook me onto what just preceded which was about our unsaved life and His desire to save us and our position in salvation without our earning it) ... by an undeserved, unearned, unmerited gift, ... you were saved -- at a point of time in the past that continues up until the present moment and will continue forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever ... ...through the agency of rationally persuaded belief/conviction (certainty) and not of yourselves. It is a gift of God. Not out of human effort otherwise anyone should boast.

Lets Try that again and reduce some of the clutter.
For by an undeserved, unearned, unmerited gift, you were saved -- at a point of time in the past that continues up until the present moment and will continue forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever through the agency of rationally persuaded belief/conviction and not of yourselves. It is a gift of God. Not out of human effort otherwise anyone should boast.
So there you have it.

Salvation is a process for which you cannot escape.
You cannot escape the process as it is identified in Ephesians 2: 8-9. You, who rest solely on the cross-work of Jesus Christ as a gift freely offered to you (but cost God everything) on the basis of faith alone, you are in an eternal process for which you cannot escape out of. You are eternally saved and secure.
Dont let anyone tell you otherwise and try to rob you of the effective power of your gift of eternal life. If someone does try this, tell them to come see me and explain the Greek passive perfect participle of "sesohsmenoi" and the grammatical law that it adheres to for the meaning of the word. At best all they could do is make up a rule of Greek grammar to try and negate the process action that is infinite in the rule regarding passive perfect participle as applied here in verse 8 for "sesohsmenoi.
In other words, there is no rebuttal to the evidence to what I have just presented. No one who would try to rob you of this truth I have presented has any textual, Greek grammar evidence that can point to the contrary. All they can do is spit into the wind, or maybe they can pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger but they cant mess around (with Jimas in the song by Jim Croce) with this proper translation of Ephesians 2:8 and the word "sesohsmenoi.
Also, remember this lesson. Translations are not perfect in their representation of exactly what was written in the original texts. Translations are imperfect and as such are not suitable for framing and forming the basis for doctrine. All too many churches and individuals use translations for the basis of their doctrines, which can and usually creates all sorts of error.

Vhayes
Nov 10th 2008, 04:44 PM
As I said - people will believe what they will believe - there are points and verses that are strong for both sides of the debate. I know where I stand and I know why.

God will give us the real answer when we get home -
Blessings to all
V

threebigrocks
Nov 10th 2008, 07:30 PM
Which sins of yours or mine were past when Jesus said, "It is finished"?

None. Are you sure Jesus was referring to our sin, or His work He came to this earth to do? Really, He was born to die. His obedience and work on this earth was done, physically.

Vhayes
Nov 10th 2008, 07:57 PM
None. Are you sure Jesus was referring to our sin, or His work He came to this earth to do? Really, He was born to die. His obedience and work on this earth was done, physically.
And I'll ask you the same question - what was His work? What was the goal?

sheina maidle
Nov 10th 2008, 08:03 PM
Salvation is a gift of God and God's gifts are irrevocable. Romans 12 something...
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:29)

Strong's Greek Dictionary
278. ametameletos

ametameletos am-et-am-el'-ay-tos
from 1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of 3338; irrevocable:--without repentance, not to be repented of.

Butch5
Nov 10th 2008, 08:37 PM
I found this to explain away the idea that OSAS is a false doctrine. Read on
God Bless
Randy


Is it right because He wrote it???

Let's see if Jesus agrees,

Nowhere does the Bible say a person cannot turn away from Christ, on the contrary, the Bible warns us not to turn away from Christ. If salvation cannot be lost please explain this passage to me. Were the apostles saved? Jesus said this to John, Matthew, Peter and the other apostles


Mark 9:31 ( KJV ) 31For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.



Mark 9:43-49 ( KJV ) 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Notice Jesus didn't say, if a man's hand offends. He said if "your" hand offends you cut it off, it is better for "you" to enter life maimed than for "you" to go into hell. Jesus said this to the apostles, why would He say this if they could not lose their salvation?????

Butch5
Nov 10th 2008, 08:48 PM
As I said - people will believe what they will believe - there are points and verses that are strong for both sides of the debate. I know where I stand and I know why.

God will give us the real answer when we get home -
Blessings to all
V

There are not verses that support both sides. Scripture only supports one side, the other side is misinterpreting the verses. If Scripture supported both sides it would contradict itself, which it does not. The problem is, OSAS believers quote verses of Scripture that apply to believers, To prove that OSAS is correct they "must" prove that a believer cannot turn away from Christ, which they cannot do. There is not a single Scripture that states a believer cannot turn away, on the contrary there is a multitude of verses that warn against turning away from Christ or the faith. And in particular there is Scripture that explicitly warns a believer "not" to turn away from God. Take notice when you read the verses that people claim support OSAS, every time the verse will be referring to a believer, and the verses that speak of losing you salvation will be warning a person not to turn away from Christ, God, or the faith. What purpose would there be to write the multitude of verses warning against turning away, if a person could not turn away???

sheina maidle
Nov 10th 2008, 08:55 PM
:agree:

100% with you on that, but I even go one step further. Not only can we not judge if a person is saved or not, we cannot even judge if we ourselves are saved.
We will know them by their "fruits"...

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There are many sitting in church pews who believe they are saved and are not. We can know a person is by their "agape" love...

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

This would not include Judas Iscariot however...when Jesus said this it was after Judas had gone out to betray Him.

We are told to "examine ourselves" to be sure we are "in the faith"...

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

The Holy Spirit will give us the "assurance" we are His...

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

We are to make our election sure, but there is no guarantee that we are when we have accepted Christ. We may believe we have accepted Him, but until the end, there is no blessed assurance, which is why all those verses preach perseverance to the end.
If there is no guarantee, how are we to make our election sure? God's Word's is our guarantee...

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

God's Word says that we KNOW we have eternal life...and that assurance comes from the Holy Spirit and not from anything we do.

I do know that God's elect shall persevere to the end. I do not know for a fact that I am one of the elect, or anyone else for that matter.
How sad that you have no assurance of eternal life. It appears you are depending on your own "perserverance" rather than being "kept by the power of God" (1 Peter 1:5).

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

We overcome the tribulation in the world through Christ. We do not have to wait "until the end" to have the "assurance" of eternal life. If we have to wait "until the end", then we make Christ a liar...for He said:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (present tense)

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (present tense)

Vhayes
Nov 10th 2008, 09:29 PM
There are not verses that support both sides. Scripture only supports one side, the other side is misinterpreting the verses. If Scripture supported both sides it would contradict itself, which it does not. The problem is, OSAS believers quote verses of Scripture that apply to believers, To prove that OSAS is correct they "must" prove that a believer cannot turn away from Christ, which they cannot do. There is not a single Scripture that states a believer cannot turn away, on the contrary there is a multitude of verses that warn against turning away from Christ or the faith. And in particular there is Scripture that explicitly warns a believer "not" to turn away from God. Take notice when you read the verses that people claim support OSAS, every time the verse will be referring to a believer, and the verses that speak of losing you salvation will be warning a person not to turn away from Christ, God, or the faith. What purpose would there be to write the multitude of verses warning against turning away, if a person could not turn away???
If you "turn away", you get your behind spanked in order to turn you back again. Turn away long enough to bring Christ to open shame and God will take you out of this world. Does turn away mean "damned"? Once again, read Hebrews chapter 6.

But of course you're right, Butch. All of the scholars who disagree with you haven't spent any time at all. The Holy Spirit can't possibly have taught me a thing, even though I prayed and studied and prayed some more. (Ok - sarcasm off - I hope I didn't offend)

As I said, I will tell you what I believe and why I believe it but that's about it. You obviously have your reasons for believing as you do and thats fine. What really matters is that we allow Jesus to be our focus daily and allow Him to work through us to accomplish His goals.
V

looking4jesus
Nov 10th 2008, 09:42 PM
[quote=Butch5;1862175][/font][/left]


Is it right because He wrote it???

Let's see if Jesus agrees,

Nowhere does the Bible say a person cannot turn away from Christ, on the contrary, the Bible warns us not to turn away from Christ. If salvation cannot be lost please explain this passage to me. Were the apostles saved? Jesus said this to John, Matthew, Peter and the other apostles

Butch,

I have a simple question for you , well a few questions.

1. Do you belive that the Holy Spirit is God?

2. Do you belive that in the moment you are saved that the Holy Spirit comes inside and does the work of the new creation in Christ?

3. If you do belive then where would you get the power to kick out God the Holy Spirt from yourself? It is a serious question because God is inside the believer so how do you kick God out of your life?

I really would like your heartfelt answer because I am wondering if you belive in God the Holy Spirit that resides inside the saved person.

Now please do not quote the scripture that you can quench the Holy Spirit I know this but that is not the same as throwing God out of your life.

Thanks
God Bless
Randy

Partaker of Christ
Nov 10th 2008, 10:17 PM
:agree:

100% with you on that, but I even go one step further. Not only can we not judge if a person is saved or not, we cannot even judge if we ourselves are saved.

We are to make our election sure, but there is no guarantee that we are when we have accepted Christ. We may believe we have accepted Him, but until the end, there is no blessed assurance, which is why all those verses preach perseverance to the end.

I do know that God's elect shall persevere to the end. I do not know for a fact that I am one of the elect, or anyone else for that matter.

Hi Yukerboy!

Many years ago, I use to work in the assurance industry.
Assurance was saving for something that will happen. Old age retirement or death.

Insurance is putting something aside, just in case of something that might happen. Ill health, car accident, damage to your home, theft of goods etc:

Many seem to view the truth of the gospel as an insurance, rather then an assurance.

They have said something like: I believe that Jesus Christ has paid the full price of my sins, but just in case I will do good works.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Col 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words

Partaker of Christ
Nov 10th 2008, 10:46 PM
No my friend,

The writer of Hebrews makes it quite clear that He is speaking to Christians.

All cannot mean all sin unless you are going to deny what Paul said. Paul Clearly says that God make Christ a propitiation for sins that are Past not future.


But again this is were your argument stumbles Butch5.

If propitiation for sins, is only covers for our past sins, then there cannot be forgiveness for any of our future sins.
Without the shedding of blood, there can be 'NO' remission of sins.

You can confess till your blue in the face, if Christ has not propitiated for any of our future sin, there can be no forgiveness.

It does say "He is faithful and just to forgive.
How can God be just to forgive, if the wages of sin have not been paid?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 10th 2008, 11:03 PM
That Scripture is not speaking of a saved person???


Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

I think this descibes a saved person.

No, it speaks to the Jews (who are partakers of the heavenly calling) to consider the Apostle and High Priest of our (the Christian) profession, Christ Jesus.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 10th 2008, 11:32 PM
Roger it is not Me that is ignoring Scripture. I have not ignored a single Scripture. You on the other hand have not dealt with Romans 3:25.

I said, all sin, refers to all kinds of sins. this fits perfectly with Romans 3:25. I also asked why John would tell His readers to confess their sins and receive forgiveness from God if their sins were already forgiven?


Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

God had justifiably passed over former sins.
Sins of the past were merely covered over, by the foreshadowing sacrificing blood of animals.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law
Now that Christ Jesus has become the propitiation of sins, sin is no more passed over, but washed away by His precious blood.

When sins of the passed were covered, they could also be uncovered.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 10th 2008, 11:53 PM
It is guaranteed on God's part, however He does not force one to stay.

Wrong.

When you come to Christ, you surrender yourself to Him. That my friend includes your own will.

You make Him both Lord and Saviour.

This 'free will' to walk away, is a doctrine of devils.

You are now no longer your own, You were bought with a price, and a very high price that was. If anyone believes that you can buy that back, then they are deluded. The price to pay, is the price of a 'perfect' sacrifice for your sins. Even in the old way of sacrifices, the animals had to be perfect, and even then the sins were only covered.

Do you think that you are sufficiently perfect, to buy back what Christ Jesus paid for you?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 11th 2008, 12:02 AM
I agree, however sin does still matter. If a preson believes and then lives their life in adultery, they will not be saved. Paul said adulterers will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

No sin, and no sinner will enter the kingdom of heaven. Not even the spot or stain of sin will enter the kingdom of heaven.

For we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. The corruptible will put on incorruptible, and He shall present us without spot or blemish to the Father.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 11th 2008, 12:04 AM
Did Jesus say all sins are forgiven? What was finished was the work that God had given Him to do.

He came to lay down His life for the sins of the world.
He said it is finished.

Butch5
Nov 11th 2008, 01:25 AM
Wrong.

When you come to Christ, you surrender yourself to Him. That my friend includes your own will.

You make Him both Lord and Saviour.

This 'free will' to walk away, is a doctrine of devils.

You are now no longer your own, You were bought with a price, and a very high price that was. If anyone believes that you can buy that back, then they are deluded. The price to pay, is the price of a 'perfect' sacrifice for your sins. Even in the old way of sacrifices, the animals had to be perfect, and even then the sins were only covered.

Do you think that you are sufficiently perfect, to buy back what Christ Jesus paid for you?

Was the writer of Hebrews deluded?

Hebrews 3:12 ( KJV ) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

In departing from the living God???

Hebrews 10:26-30 ( KJV ) 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

He counted the blood that he was sanctified with an unholy thing???


Hebrews 6:4-8 ( KJV ) 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


If they should fall away???

Was Paul deluded?

Colossians 1:19-23 ( KJV ) 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

To present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable, what? "IF YOU CONTINUE" in the faith. "If you continue" implies that it is possible not to continue.

Butch5
Nov 11th 2008, 01:32 AM
No sin, and no sinner will enter the kingdom of heaven. Not even the spot or stain of sin will enter the kingdom of heaven.

For we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. The corruptible will put on incorruptible, and He shall present us without spot or blemish to the Father.

That's not what we were discussing.

Butch5
Nov 11th 2008, 01:40 AM
He came to lay down His life for the sins of the world.
He said it is finished.

That is jsut a part of why He came, He came to preach the gospel of the kingdom.


Mark 1:38-39 ( KJV ) 38And he said unto them, Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth. 39And he preached in their synagogues throughout all Galilee, and cast out devils.

Butch5
Nov 11th 2008, 01:45 AM
If you "turn away", you get your behind spanked in order to turn you back again. Turn away long enough to bring Christ to open shame and God will take you out of this world. Does turn away mean "damned"? Once again, read Hebrews chapter 6.

But of course you're right, Butch. All of the scholars who disagree with you haven't spent any time at all. The Holy Spirit can't possibly have taught me a thing, even though I prayed and studied and prayed some more. (Ok - sarcasm off - I hope I didn't offend)

As I said, I will tell you what I believe and why I believe it but that's about it. You obviously have your reasons for believing as you do and thats fine. What really matters is that we allow Jesus to be our focus daily and allow Him to work through us to accomplish His goals.
V

I'm not offended, however I stand by what I said, if there is Scripture to support both sides then you have contradiction. How can Scripture say you can and cannot lose salvation??? Does the Holy Spirit tell you Scriptures says one thing and then tell me it means something else?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 11th 2008, 01:50 AM
Was the writer of Hebrews deluded?

Hebrews 3:12 ( KJV ) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

In departing from the living God???

Hebrews 10:26-30 ( KJV ) 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

He counted the blood that he was sanctified with an unholy thing???


Hebrews 6:4-8 ( KJV ) 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


If they should fall away???

Was Paul deluded?

Colossians 1:19-23 ( KJV ) 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

To present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable, what? "IF YOU CONTINUE" in the faith. "If you continue" implies that it is possible not to continue.

Those who are His, will continue.
It is the evidence that you have truly believed with the heart.

Jesus said that if the ground was good, it will produce fruit.

The good ground is "he that heareth the word, and understood it"

Matt 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 11th 2008, 01:53 AM
That is jsut a part of why He came, He came to preach the gospel of the kingdom.


Mark 1:38-39 ( KJV ) 38And he said unto them, Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth. 39And he preached in their synagogues throughout all Galilee, and cast out devils.

It was still a work that He came to do, and He said it was finished.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 11th 2008, 01:55 AM
That's not what we were discussing.

Sure it was.

You said no adulterer shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

Butch5
Nov 11th 2008, 02:03 AM
Randy---
Butch,
I have a simple question for you , well a few questions.
1. Do you belive that the Holy Spirit is God?


The Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Father and the Son. All three are equal in deity, equally divine, however they are not the same person.


Randy---2. Do you belive that in the moment you are saved that the Holy Spirit comes inside and does the work of the new creation in Christ?

When a person believes they are water baptized at this point God cleanses them and then they receive the Holy Spirit


Randy---3. If you do belive then where would you get the power to kick out God the Holy Spirt from yourself? It is a serious question because God is inside the believer so how do you kick God out of your life?

God does not force Himself on anyone, If you turn from Him He will let you go. There are numerous Scriptures that attest to this fact. However there is no Scripture that says a person cannot leave.


Randy---I really would like your heartfelt answer because I am wondering if you belive in God the Holy Spirit that resides inside the saved person.

Yes I believe that Holy Spirit reside in the believer, however He does not control the believer like a robot. The believer with the indwelling Holy Spirit is still capable of committing gross sins, now, if you say that someone cannot kick the Holy Spirit out, how can this same person commit gross sins. My friend God does not stay where He isn't wanted.

Revelation 3:20 ( KJV ) 20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


He only comes in if He is wanted.

OK, I answered your questions, please answer mine.


If salvation cannot be lost please explain this passage to me. Were the apostles saved? Jesus said this to John, Matthew, Peter and the other apostles


Mark 9:31 ( KJV ) 31For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.



Mark 9:43-49 ( KJV ) 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Notice Jesus didn't say, if a man's hand offends. He said if "your" hand offends you cut it off, it is better for "you" to enter life maimed than for "you" to go into hell. Jesus said this to the apostles, why would He say this if they could not lose their salvation?????

BroRog
Nov 11th 2008, 02:04 AM
Not only can we not judge if a person is saved or not, we cannot even judge if we ourselves are saved.

Actually, a believer can know with a great amount of certainty if he or she is saved. I'll show you from scripture if you're interested.

Butch5
Nov 11th 2008, 02:13 AM
Those who are His, will continue.
It is the evidence that you have truly believed with the heart.

Jesus said that if the ground was good, it will produce fruit.

The good ground is "he that heareth the word, and understood it"

Matt 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Just as I thought, you have no argument. You say those that are His will continue. Funny that's not what Jesus said.

Matthew 10:22 ( KJV ) 22And ye shall be hated of all men for my names sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.


Matthew 24:13 ( KJV ) 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 ( KJV ) 13And ye shall be hated of all men for my names sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

You said the one who is saved will endure, but Jesus said the one who endures will be saved. I think you have it backwards my friend.

Butch5
Nov 11th 2008, 02:14 AM
Sure it was.

You said no adulterer shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

We were discussing actions on earth, not whether or not sin can enter into heaven.

Butch5
Nov 11th 2008, 02:15 AM
It was still a work that He came to do, and He said it was finished.

What was finished?

Butch5
Nov 11th 2008, 02:19 AM
But again this is were your argument stumbles Butch5.

If propitiation for sins, is only covers for our past sins, then there cannot be forgiveness for any of our future sins.
Without the shedding of blood, there can be 'NO' remission of sins.

You can confess till your blue in the face, if Christ has not propitiated for any of our future sin, there can be no forgiveness.

It does say "He is faithful and just to forgive.
How can God be just to forgive, if the wages of sin have not been paid?

You did not reconcile the the Scripture. Paul said that He was a propitiation for sins that are past. Please reconcile the Scripture.

Butch5
Nov 11th 2008, 02:21 AM
No, it speaks to the Jews (who are partakers of the heavenly calling) to consider the Apostle and High Priest of our (the Christian) profession, Christ Jesus.

Sorry my friend, it is clear that he is speaking to Christians.

Butch5
Nov 11th 2008, 02:27 AM
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

God had justifiably passed over former sins.
Sins of the past were merely covered over, by the foreshadowing sacrificing blood of animals.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law
Now that Christ Jesus has become the propitiation of sins, sin is no more passed over, but washed away by His precious blood.

When sins of the passed were covered, they could also be uncovered.

And God also passed over your sins before you became a Christian, So your sins were propitiated, however, your future sins are not passed over. For them to be propitiated John says we must confess ours. If we confess our sins He is faith and just to forgive us our sins.

Thaddaeus
Nov 11th 2008, 02:33 AM
PLEASE STOP IT PLEASE !!!!!!!! not a one of you guys discussing this has answered my question, I ask in the orginal thread, Quote


"Please do not over load this thread with all the verses you have, where you believe we can lose our salvation just please keep the thoughts you share to the answering to my one question. if we can lose our salvation by sinning after we come to His knowledge then where does the doctrine of chastisement come in???" I don't think anyone of you even read this thread , you just saw the title and your mouths started watering, if you cannot address my question please stop responding to the thread PLEASE!!!!

We have 8 count them 8 pages of you guys striving over God's Word when is a nough a nough? address my question or go start your own thread!

Butch5
Nov 11th 2008, 02:45 AM
PLEASE STOP IT PLEASE !!!!!!!! not a one of you guys discussing this has answered my question, I ask in the orginal thread, Quote


"Please do not over load this thread with all the verses you have, where you believe we can lose our salvation just please keep the thoughts you share to the answering to my one question. if we can lose our salvation by sinning after we come to His knowledge then where does the doctrine of chastisement come in???" I don't think anyone of you even read this thread , you just saw the title and your mouths started watering, if you cannot address my question please stop responding to the thread PLEASE!!!!

We have 8 count them 8 pages of you guys striving over God's Word when is a nough a nough? address my question or go start your own thread!

I answered your question, it is not by sinning that you lose salvation, unless you live in continual sin, in which case you have turned away from Christ. It is turning away from Christ that causes the loss of salvation. You do not lose salvation everytime you commit a sin. When a believer sins he is chastened by the Lord, if a believer does not respond to the chastening and continues to resist the Lord his heart becomes hardened. At some point his heart becomes so hardened that he no longer cares for the things of God and has turned away. it is at the point of turning away that he has lost salvation.

The Parson
Nov 11th 2008, 02:53 AM
So let's ease up on the doctrines of the devils sorta thing and reason out the matter as the Lord would have us to do. OkeyDokey???

markedward
Nov 11th 2008, 03:12 AM
Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The author of Hebrews directly says here that a person can "be enlightened" and "taste the heavenly gift" and "share in the Holy Spirit" and still "fall away". I think everyone here, though they may not agree on what a Christian exactly is, they will all agree that if a person has "shared in the Holy Spirit" that they are/were a Christian. But Hebrews directly says that a person can partake in this and still end up "falling away". What this is describing, as I see it, is a person who found salvation in Christ, followed and believed genuinely, but eventually turned away from Him adamantly and entirely. Not once saved, always saved. Indeed, every Scripture I've found that refers to "salvation" (in reference to eternal life) points to it as being the reward after the person has died, not something guaranteed to them while they are alive. No external source can deprive a person of their salvation. But the individual can deprive themself of it.

The Parson
Nov 11th 2008, 03:29 AM
Holy Smokes Pilgrim, that isn't what it says: Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Actually it says it is impossible for that to happen... Not "and then have fallen away" but "If" they shall fall away. I'm glad you pointed this out because I wasn't aware the texts changed so much from the W&H editings of the Alexandrian translation. I am so grateful you pointed this out. What version are you reading???

The Parson
Nov 11th 2008, 03:43 AM
Not trying to derail but I'm fascinated with the scripture markedward posted and the impact of the change. Whichever version you posted from Mark, would you post what Jude 1:24 & 25 reads as?

Below is the King James quotation:
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Thaddaeus
Nov 11th 2008, 04:28 AM
I answered your question, it is not by sinning that you lose salvation, unless you live in continual sin, in which case you have turned away from Christ. It is turning away from Christ that causes the loss of salvation. You do not lose salvation everytime you commit a sin. When a believer sins he is chastened by the Lord, if a believer does not respond to the chastening and continues to resist the Lord his heart becomes hardened. At some point his heart becomes so hardened that he no longer cares for the things of God and has turned away. it is at the point of turning away that he has lost salvation.


afraid you have not answered my question for Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.Joh 17:12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


I don't know how many promises God has made to you concerning your salvation, and how many you have made him to break so that you can lose your salvation. But you have not address my question from scriptures, you can't prove from scriptures where God allows us to walk away from him after chastisement but let me give you some

2th 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:2th 3:2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.2th 3:3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.2th 3:4And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.


notice verse 3 Lord is faithful to keep us from evil Point 1

2pe 2:9 (http://bibleforums.org/2pe+2:9)The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of TEMPTATIONS, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


The Lord knoweth how to deliver us out of temptation, but your God , or should i say your faith in God allows you to not only give in to temptation but do it enough to lose your salvation?


Ga 1:4 (http://bibleforums.org/ga+1:4)Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this PRESENT EVIL world, according to the will of God and our Father:




I think you may have been the one that brought up this verse
Mt 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mt 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Why was these cast out, because they said have we not many wonderful works . not given any credit or glory to Jesus . also they thought it was their works that should be their ticket in not their faith!!
If you want to think that your salvation depends on you , then I don't think I could ever change that . But He is Lord of my salvation and I am giving Him all the credit and glory. if I get in it will be cause of what he did for me not what i did for Him. please again i think 8 no now 9 pages is enough

markedward
Nov 11th 2008, 04:36 AM
Actually it says it is impossible for that to happen... Not "and then have fallen away" but "If" they shall fall away. I'm glad you pointed this out because I wasn't aware the texts changed so much from the W&H editings of the Alexandrian translation. I am so grateful you pointed this out. What version are you reading???Even if it did say "if"... how does that mean it's not possible? If anything, the word "if" would imply even more so that it is possible, because an "if" means there is a conditional clause... an either/or, a fork-in-the-road.

Regardless, nearly every version I've read says "and then" and not "if". I've only found a minority of exceptions (KJV and NIV). And not to get into a KJV vs. everything-else argument, but if the majority of translations read one way (being "and then"), chances are that that is the proper translation.

The Hebrews 6 text doesn't say that it's impossible to happen. Heck, it seems to me that the whole purpose of what was being said was that it was possible to happen, and that the consequences would be dire.

In regards to Jude 1:24-25... again, the KJV (and NIV) seem to differ from most other translations. The "keep you from falling" doesn't mean "keep you from falling away". Most other translations tend to render this as "keep you from stumbling" or "keep you from sinning" or "keep you away from sin". This verse doesn't have to do with eternal security, but rather that God can help a person overcome their sins. Although "keep you from falling" is a fine translation, I find the translation of "keep you from stumbling" to be more accurate to the meaning, at least in regards to the connotation the word "falling" gives off... as evident in you interpreting "keep you from falling" as meaning the same thing "keep you from falling away from salvation". Again, it's not making a promise of eternal security here... it's making a promise that God can provide help in overcoming stumbling over sin.

Yukerboy
Nov 11th 2008, 09:08 AM
if we can lose our salvation by sinning after we come to His knowledge then where does the doctrine of chastisement come in???

For the entertainment value, I shall answer the original question...

It's simple really, Christians no longer sin.

Yuke

Thaddaeus
Nov 11th 2008, 02:00 PM
For the entertainment value, I shall answer the original question...

It's simple really, Christians no longer sin.

Yuke
so there is no more chastisement for if I sin God kicks me out of the family, and I have no Father, so as with most other man made doctrines, we will need to cut the bibical doctrine of Chastisement out. Yukerboy after you came to Christ or became a Christian, have you ever had a bad thought, for Jesus saidMt 5:28 (http://bibleforums.org/mt+5:28)But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to LUST after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

ever knew something good you could do for someone and didn't do it, for the Bible says

Jas 4:17 (http://bibleforums.org/jas+4:17)Therefore to him that KNOWETH TO DO GOOD, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

then yukerboy if you are correct about Christians not sinning what do you do about

1jo 1:7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.1jo 1:8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.1jo 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.1jo 1:10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



your belief loops you into a never ending circle, we all have sinned and we all have sin, so without Jesus to break the loop, we have no hope, we all die in our sins.

1jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Notice they are called my little children, part of the family but if they sin, they weren't told, they were never part of the family , they weren't told to depart from the family or they were not even cast out from the family. but were told to trust Jesus He would take care of it for us PRAISE THE LORD, Thank you Jesus!:pp

but look yukerboy it will be alright we can cut this part out of the Bible also so that you can be right and not God, but wait no I don't think I will cut it out of my Bible. you can if you want for It also says

Ro 3:1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?Ro 3:2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.Ro 3:3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?Ro 3:4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Ro 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)Ro 3:6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?Ro 3:7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?


can't you see that the only way we will enter in is through his righteousness not ours, and by saying what you are saying is that you don't need the righteousness of Jesus for you can do it by yourself

The Parson
Nov 11th 2008, 02:18 PM
Even if it did say "if"... how does that mean it's not possible? If anything, the word "if" would imply even more so that it is possible, because an "if" means there is a conditional clause... an either/or, a fork-in-the-road.

Regardless, nearly every version I've read says "and then" and not "if". I've only found a minority of exceptions (KJV and NIV). And not to get into a KJV vs. everything-else argument, but if the majority of translations read one way (being "and then"), chances are that that is the proper translation.

The Hebrews 6 text doesn't say that it's impossible to happen. Heck, it seems to me that the whole purpose of what was being said was that it was possible to happen, and that the consequences would be dire.

In regards to Jude 1:24-25... again, the KJV (and NIV) seem to differ from most other translations. The "keep you from falling" doesn't mean "keep you from falling away". Most other translations tend to render this as "keep you from stumbling" or "keep you from sinning" or "keep you away from sin". This verse doesn't have to do with eternal security, but rather that God can help a person overcome their sins. Although "keep you from falling" is a fine translation, I find the translation of "keep you from stumbling" to be more accurate to the meaning, at least in regards to the connotation the word "falling" gives off... as evident in you interpreting "keep you from falling" as meaning the same thing "keep you from falling away from salvation". Again, it's not making a promise of eternal security here... it's making a promise that God can provide help in overcoming stumbling over sin.Why on earth go on the definsive Mark? I was simply making an observation. The "if they should fall away" rendered in the old English is exactly the same type of statement as "If it were possible" in Matthew 24:24. I won't go any further as it would cause a versions debate but thought I would point it out. Carry on...

BroRog
Nov 11th 2008, 02:50 PM
PLEASE STOP IT PLEASE !!!!!!!! not a one of you guys discussing this has answered my question, I ask in the orginal thread, Quote


"Please do not over load this thread with all the verses you have, where you believe we can lose our salvation just please keep the thoughts you share to the answering to my one question. if we can lose our salvation by sinning after we come to His knowledge then where does the doctrine of chastisement come in???" I don't think anyone of you even read this thread , you just saw the title and your mouths started watering, if you cannot address my question please stop responding to the thread PLEASE!!!!

We have 8 count them 8 pages of you guys striving over God's Word when is a nough a nough? address my question or go start your own thread!

I think you answered your own question in the OP, and you did a good job of it too, in my opinion. The idea that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith shouldn't be taken lightly, as we rummage through the Bible looking for amo. :)

The argument against OSAS boils down to a simple syllogism.

a. salvation is by faith alone
b. a man can stop believing
c. therefore salvation can be lost.

The arguments in favor of OSAS boil down to a argument against a. that salvation by faith alone, is not an adequate picture of salvation. And arguments against OSAS continue to press point b., that apostasy is always an option.

In my view, these threads continue to argue past each other because they continually focus on their respective portions of the syllogism.

faithfulfriend
Nov 11th 2008, 08:20 PM
1jo 1:7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.1jo 1:8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.1jo 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.1jo 1:10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


Key point to make:
1Jo 5:17 "All unrighteousness is sin:"

Unrighteousness is sin, therefore righteousness is the absence of sin (sinless)

The Bible says, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

These words were written by the apostle John in I John 1:8. The Bible teaches that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and therefore all need a Saviour to reconcile them to God. John addressed this to those claiming they had no guilt, no pollution of sin, and no need of a Saviour. This is not referring to someone that has been born again through the blood of the Lamb and has been cleansed from all unrighteousness (I Jn. 1:9).

John said, These things write I unto you, that ye sin not (I Jn. 2:1). This message is clearly declared throughout his epistles:
. . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. I Jn. 1:7.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. I Jn. 2:4.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sinsWhosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sinIn this the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil . . . I Jn. 3:5-10.

The apostles message is clear and is in accordance with other New Testament writers. Those who would try to use I John 1:8 to uphold their sinning, wrest it contrary to the tenure of all the scriptures.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 11th 2008, 10:12 PM
Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The author of Hebrews directly says here that a person can "be enlightened" and "taste the heavenly gift" and "share in the Holy Spirit" and still "fall away". I think everyone here, though they may not agree on what a Christian exactly is, they will all agree that if a person has "shared in the Holy Spirit" that they are/were a Christian. But Hebrews directly says that a person can partake in this and still end up "falling away". What this is describing, as I see it, is a person who found salvation in Christ, followed and believed genuinely, but eventually turned away from Him adamantly and entirely. Not once saved, always saved. Indeed, every Scripture I've found that refers to "salvation" (in reference to eternal life) points to it as being the reward after the person has died, not something guaranteed to them while they are alive. No external source can deprive a person of their salvation. But the individual can deprive themself of it.

And why would the writer say:

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak

What is it that persuaded [convinced] the writer of better things of them?

Butch5
Nov 12th 2008, 12:53 AM
Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The author of Hebrews directly says here that a person can "be enlightened" and "taste the heavenly gift" and "share in the Holy Spirit" and still "fall away". I think everyone here, though they may not agree on what a Christian exactly is, they will all agree that if a person has "shared in the Holy Spirit" that they are/were a Christian. But Hebrews directly says that a person can partake in this and still end up "falling away". What this is describing, as I see it, is a person who found salvation in Christ, followed and believed genuinely, but eventually turned away from Him adamantly and entirely. Not once saved, always saved. Indeed, every Scripture I've found that refers to "salvation" (in reference to eternal life) points to it as being the reward after the person has died, not something guaranteed to them while they are alive. No external source can deprive a person of their salvation. But the individual can deprive themself of it.


Well said my friend.

Butch5
Nov 12th 2008, 01:13 AM
afraid you have not answered my question for Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.Joh 17:12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


I don't know how many promises God has made to you concerning your salvation, and how many you have made him to break so that you can lose your salvation. But you have not address my question from scriptures, you can't prove from scriptures where God allows us to walk away from him after chastisement but let me give you some

2th 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:2th 3:2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.2th 3:3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.2th 3:4And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.


notice verse 3 Lord is faithful to keep us from evil Point 1

2pe 2:9 (http://bibleforums.org/2pe+2:9)The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of TEMPTATIONS, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


The Lord knoweth how to deliver us out of temptation, but your God , or should i say your faith in God allows you to not only give in to temptation but do it enough to lose your salvation?


Ga 1:4 (http://bibleforums.org/ga+1:4)Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this PRESENT EVIL world, according to the will of God and our Father:




I think you may have been the one that brought up this verse
Mt 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mt 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Why was these cast out, because they said have we not many wonderful works . not given any credit or glory to Jesus . also they thought it was their works that should be their ticket in not their faith!!
If you want to think that your salvation depends on you , then I don't think I could ever change that . But He is Lord of my salvation and I am giving Him all the credit and glory. if I get in it will be cause of what he did for me not what i did for Him. please again i think 8 no now 9 pages is enough

Keith, what have you proven??? I don't think anyone on this board thinks for a minute that God is incapable of saving us or keeping us. All of the verses that you quote speak of believers, God will save and keep believers, it is those who choose to leave that He won't keep. You have not shown where a believer is incapable of turning away.


Keith---If you want to think that your salvation depends on you , then I don't think I could ever change that .



Keith---if I get in it will be cause of what he did for me not what i did for Him.


You won't get in because of what you have done??? Do you know what criteria Jesus gave when He told the disciples who will get into heaven? This is the criteria.


Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Who gets into heaven??? Those who did the works, those that didn't, go into everlasting punishment. If you think we can do nothing fr our salvation what do you make of what Paul said?


Romans 2:3-10 ( KJV ) 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Notice Paul says, God will judge every man according to His deeds. Paul says in continual well doing they are seeking eternal life. So it most definitely does matter what you do.

Thaddaeus
Nov 12th 2008, 05:13 AM
Key point to make:
1Jo 5:17 "All unrighteousness is sin:"

Unrighteousness is sin, therefore righteousness is the absence of sin (sinless)

The Bible says, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

These words were written by the apostle John in I John 1:8. The Bible teaches that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and therefore all need a Saviour to reconcile them to God. John addressed this to those claiming they had no guilt, no pollution of sin, and no need of a Saviour. This is not referring to someone that has been born again through the blood of the Lamb and has been cleansed from all unrighteousness (I Jn. 1:9).

John said, These things write I unto you, that ye sin not (I Jn. 2:1). This message is clearly declared throughout his epistles:
. . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. I Jn. 1:7.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. I Jn. 2:4.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sinsWhosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sinIn this the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil . . . I Jn. 3:5-10.

The apostles message is clear and is in accordance with other New Testament writers. Those who would try to use I John 1:8 to uphold their sinning, wrest it contrary to the tenure of all the scriptures.


1jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


Jesus covers our future sins also well atleast mine sorry That he doesn't cover your also, wait though isn't there no respect of persons with God

Yukerboy
Nov 12th 2008, 09:46 AM
Let me see if I can piece this all together for you to understand where I come from...

First, I start with definitions. What is sin?

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Breaking the law is sin. I agree with that.

Next, do Christians sin?

1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin.

Simple answer. Christians do not sin.

Now, comes the tough one....I'm a Christian, yet I still break the law, therefore I sin, correct?

1 John 3:9 ...he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

What?! Cannot? That means someone who abides in Christ is UNABLE to sin. That means it is impossible to sin if you abide in Christ.

Then, either I do sin and do not abide in Christ, or I do not sin and abide in Christ. If John is correct, then it must be one or the other.

Romans 7:15-20 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to dothis I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Paul says here that we will do the things (sin) we don't want to do (being led by the Spirit), yet not do (good things) what we want to do (being led by the Spirit).

But then Paul explains, it is no longer us (the saved) who does this (sins). It is the sin that abides within us....and that brings us back to John.

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

We have sin. It abides in us. Paul confirms the words of John. However, John also says Christians cannot sin. Paul confirms that by telling us that while we may do that which we don't want to do, it is no longer us who do it, but the sin living within us that does it.

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

So, being led by the Spirit, you are no longer under the law. The definition of sin is breaking the law. Sin has become IMPOSSIBLE since there are no laws a Christian can break.

1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels...

Who are the righteous? Those who abide in Christ. Christ has made them righteous. The law is not made for those who abide in Christ.

So, don't think I am saying holier than thou, or anything like that.

If you are a Christian, you have been washed, sanctified, and justified in one fell swoop. God doesn't make mistakes. He doesn't wash something and let it get dirty again. Nope, once for all time.

Now, much like the people who disagree with OSAS theology will disagree with me and say that "this is just a license to sin".

Paul says we do that which we do not want to do. If we are led by the Spirit, then our spirit has no desire to sin, though the flesh does.

Yuke

Partaker of Christ
Nov 12th 2008, 03:11 PM
Let me see if I can piece this all together for you to understand where I come from...

First, I start with definitions. What is sin?

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Breaking the law is sin. I agree with that.

Next, do Christians sin?

1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin.

Simple answer. Christians do not sin.

Now, comes the tough one....I'm a Christian, yet I still break the law, therefore I sin, correct?

1 John 3:9 ...he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

What?! Cannot? That means someone who abides in Christ is UNABLE to sin. That means it is impossible to sin if you abide in Christ.

Then, either I do sin and do not abide in Christ, or I do not sin and abide in Christ. If John is correct, then it must be one or the other.

Romans 7:15-20 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to dothis I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Paul says here that we will do the things (sin) we don't want to do (being led by the Spirit), yet not do (good things) what we want to do (being led by the Spirit).

But then Paul explains, it is no longer us (the saved) who does this (sins). It is the sin that abides within us....and that brings us back to John.

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

We have sin. It abides in us. Paul confirms the words of John. However, John also says Christians cannot sin. Paul confirms that by telling us that while we may do that which we don't want to do, it is no longer us who do it, but the sin living within us that does it.

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

So, being led by the Spirit, you are no longer under the law. The definition of sin is breaking the law. Sin has become IMPOSSIBLE since there are no laws a Christian can break.

1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels...

Who are the righteous? Those who abide in Christ. Christ has made them righteous. The law is not made for those who abide in Christ.

So, don't think I am saying holier than thou, or anything like that.

If you are a Christian, you have been washed, sanctified, and justified in one fell swoop. God doesn't make mistakes. He doesn't wash something and let it get dirty again. Nope, once for all time.

Now, much like the people who disagree with OSAS theology will disagree with me and say that "this is just a license to sin".

Paul says we do that which we do not want to do. If we are led by the Spirit, then our spirit has no desire to sin, though the flesh does.

Yuke

Hi Yuke!

Great post, and I much agree *to a point* :D

I still believe that we can sin, although not against the law.

The conscience.

1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

We know that we are not under law regards the eating of meat, but for someone who is weak in 'the faith' it is a sin.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

You may notice that to be weak 'in the faith' (this is not weak in their faith), is having a weak conscience.
In my view, this is someone who is not 'consciously' fully free from the law.

Butch5
Nov 12th 2008, 08:54 PM
Yukerboy---1 John 3:9 ...he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

What?! Cannot? That means someone who abides in Christ is UNABLE to sin. That means it is impossible to sin if you abide in Christ.


Instead of saying it is impossible to sin, that can also be read this way. John could be saying that the one who has been born of God does not have permission to sin. He cannot sin because He does not have permission. As in the statement, I cannot go to the party. This person is not physically restrained or incapable, they just don't have permission from their parents.

JesusMySavior
Nov 12th 2008, 09:18 PM
What a touchy topic.

I will say that from my own experience, it is NOSAS but only if what you had with God was not a real conversion. God will go to the ends of the earth to find that lost coin that is hiding in the crack of the world, and I'm living proof of that.

As an ex-backslider, I will say that God scared the living daylights out of me to get my attention. When I wouldn't hear His voice He sent me dreams of almost dying, because I knew I wasn't right with God. In my dreams I would be shaking and praying for my very life and ask that God would forgive me. All I would murmur is "God please please please forgive me don't let me die I'm sorry really I'm sorry please please" and I'd wake up in a sweat.

Had I died then I'm not sure where I would have gone, I'm about 80% sure that I would have gone to heaven, but you couldn't tell it from my lifestyle. You hear about Romans saying that God turned them over to their own lusts to be destroyed...and that almost happened to me. I shudder when I think of where I could be now if God hadn't rescued me.

So, with that being said, I was thinking about the book of James and I thought, if we are saved by faith, why must works account for it? And I finally got it. Around here there's a lot of folk who go drinking and partying and sinning, but say they "believe" in Jesus because it's what they grew up with. It's the Bible belt. I said to myself, I couldn't honestly go up to one of these people without sacrificing the conviction of the Holy Spirit and believe them when they said they knew Christ.

To simply acknowledge and to yield your life to Him are two different things entirely.

So I am a NOSAS, but God will search forever to get you back before He simply turns you over to be destroyed. If you need proof, read the OT about God's gracious mercy to Israel.

Yukerboy
Nov 13th 2008, 05:38 AM
Partaker of Christ, let me think that one over. I see two options.

If I cause a weak brother to perish, then that brother was either never saved (according to OSAS), even though Christ did die for him as Paul states which takes the Limited Atonement domino away...

Or the brother was saved and then lost salvation (according to NOSAS) yet, he loses salvation due to my actions and not his own. I controlled whether the weak brother would be saved or not. He is a brother. He perishes due to my actions. He then becomes unsaved through no fault of his own.

I'm a firm OSAS (though not in the traditional Calvinistic View), but I admit I'm struggling with the Scripture you have presented. Something doesn't seem true, but it's right there in black and white. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's some things in the Bible I disagree with, but I also admit that the Bible is 100% correct so it is I who must be wrong. For instance, God telling the Jews to go the Promised Land and kill every man, woman, and child. I disagree with it, but the Bible knows better than I do. Or Job having his children taken away, but being blessed later with new children. I'd be pretty bitter telling God I want the old children back, but I digress...

Butch, I see what you are saying, but cannot implies inability. Should not would be along the lines of not permitted.

Firstfruits
Nov 13th 2008, 09:09 AM
Partaker of Christ, let me think that one over. I see two options.

If I cause a weak brother to perish, then that brother was either never saved (according to OSAS), even though Christ did die for him as Paul states which takes the Limited Atonement domino away...

Or the brother was saved and then lost salvation (according to NOSAS) yet, he loses salvation due to my actions and not his own. I controlled whether the weak brother would be saved or not. He is a brother. He perishes due to my actions. He then becomes unsaved through no fault of his own.

I'm a firm OSAS (though not in the traditional Calvinistic View), but I admit I'm struggling with the Scripture you have presented. Something doesn't seem true, but it's right there in black and white. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's some things in the Bible I disagree with, but I also admit that the Bible is 100% correct so it is I who must be wrong. For instance, God telling the Jews to go the Promised Land and kill every man, woman, and child. I disagree with it, but the Bible knows better than I do. Or Job having his children taken away, but being blessed later with new children. I'd be pretty bitter telling God I want the old children back, but I digress...

Butch, I see what you are saying, but cannot implies inability. Should not would be along the lines of not permitted.

With regards to the following what do you believe Jesus is saying?

Lk 17:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Nov 13th 2008, 09:41 AM
I think Christ is saying that it is inevitable that offenses will happen and the one that the offenses come through will suffer.

Ichiban
Nov 13th 2008, 09:47 AM
I think Christ is saying that it is inevitable that offenses will happen and the one that the offenses come through will suffer.

Keep in mind: we don't suffer under God's account. God, while sovereign, doesn't rule the Earth. Sometimes, we suffer under our own wrong doings and sometimes we suffer for doing the things God has called us to do. But we can take solace in the fact that God promises our suffering is never to great for Him to overcome.

Firstfruits
Nov 13th 2008, 12:04 PM
I think Christ is saying that it is inevitable that offenses will happen and the one that the offenses come through will suffer.

Thank you Yukerboy,

Does the following show the need for a brother/sister that has sinned to repent in order to be forgiven?

Lk 17:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Lk 17:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Butch5
Nov 13th 2008, 03:42 PM
Partaker of Christ, let me think that one over. I see two options.

If I cause a weak brother to perish, then that brother was either never saved (according to OSAS), even though Christ did die for him as Paul states which takes the Limited Atonement domino away...

Or the brother was saved and then lost salvation (according to NOSAS) yet, he loses salvation due to my actions and not his own. I controlled whether the weak brother would be saved or not. He is a brother. He perishes due to my actions. He then becomes unsaved through no fault of his own.

I'm a firm OSAS (though not in the traditional Calvinistic View), but I admit I'm struggling with the Scripture you have presented. Something doesn't seem true, but it's right there in black and white. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's some things in the Bible I disagree with, but I also admit that the Bible is 100% correct so it is I who must be wrong. For instance, God telling the Jews to go the Promised Land and kill every man, woman, and child. I disagree with it, but the Bible knows better than I do. Or Job having his children taken away, but being blessed later with new children. I'd be pretty bitter telling God I want the old children back, but I digress...

Butch, I see what you are saying, but cannot implies inability. Should not would be along the lines of not permitted.

Hi Yuker,

Yes, it does imply inability. However, it does not necessarily imply physical inability. So to say a Christian cannot sin means he does not have permission is quite acceptable, an it fits readily into the context because John goes on to say, if we do sin. This shows that John did realize that we are capable of sin, so to take his other statement to mean we are incapable doesn't seem to fit the context.

Veretax
Nov 14th 2008, 01:28 PM
Hi Yuker,

Yes, it does imply inability. However, it does not necessarily imply physical inability. So to say a Christian cannot sin means he does not have permission is quite acceptable, an it fits readily into the context because John goes on to say, if we do sin. This shows that John did realize that we are capable of sin, so to take his other statement to mean we are incapable doesn't seem to fit the context.


That's interesting. I don't recall where i read or heard it, but I've heard some say, that if we are saved God's Holy Spirit is within us and that God does not see sin when he looks at us at the end, but he sees Christ instead.

Firstfruits
Nov 14th 2008, 04:02 PM
That's interesting. I don't recall where i read or heard it, but I've heard some say, that if we are saved God's Holy Spirit is within us and that God does not see sin when he looks at us at the end, but he sees Christ instead.

Would that only apply if our sins have been forgiven?

Firstfruits

Veretax
Nov 14th 2008, 04:21 PM
Would that only apply if our sins have been forgiven?

Firstfruits

Here's the question though, not does it apply if our sins are forgiven. But when Christ died, did he pay the debt for all sin for all time? or only those sins that you confess? because if you believe its the later, then in essence you are forced not to live by faith as Paul preaches, but to also live by works. That seems a bit of a contradiction to my understanding of scripture.

So the question is simple. Did Christ's death on the cross pay the debt for the sin of believers for all time regardless of when they were committed? Or do they only pay for those you have confessed at some point in time? Which would imply that many would not be admitted into the Kingdom because of unconfessed Sin, and it seems to me that Confession invalidates the ability of man to be justified by faith and if that was true we would only be saved by our Works, but we know that cannot be true because the Law revealed mans inability to live by the law, because if you break even a piece you have broken it entirety.

It really comes down to one thing to me. Is God's plan of salvation always intended to be through faith? Or through Works? We know from James that those who are believers, who we would call 'saved', should manifest fruit and by works confirm the confession of their faith. Thus if we see someone confess to believe, but their lifestyle says something other, we'd have reason to doubt whether they were really of the Faith.

My heart's Desire
Nov 15th 2008, 04:23 AM
My conclusion to OSAS which I fully believe is this. One either believes God or they just don't and they either trust Him for all of it or they don't believe Him for any of it. :) Short and sweet....this time anyway.

Firstfruits
Nov 15th 2008, 01:10 PM
Here's the question though, not does it apply if our sins are forgiven. But when Christ died, did he pay the debt for all sin for all time? or only those sins that you confess? because if you believe its the later, then in essence you are forced not to live by faith as Paul preaches, but to also live by works. That seems a bit of a contradiction to my understanding of scripture.

So the question is simple. Did Christ's death on the cross pay the debt for the sin of believers for all time regardless of when they were committed? Or do they only pay for those you have confessed at some point in time? Which would imply that many would not be admitted into the Kingdom because of unconfessed Sin, and it seems to me that Confession invalidates the ability of man to be justified by faith and if that was true we would only be saved by our Works, but we know that cannot be true because the Law revealed mans inability to live by the law, because if you break even a piece you have broken it entirety.

It really comes down to one thing to me. Is God's plan of salvation always intended to be through faith? Or through Works? We know from James that those who are believers, who we would call 'saved', should manifest fruit and by works confirm the confession of their faith. Thus if we see someone confess to believe, but their lifestyle says something other, we'd have reason to doubt whether they were really of the Faith.

Since we are taught to live without sin (not saying that we will never sin) we therefore live by faith that God will keep us and strengthen us that we shall not yield to temptation.

What is the prayer Christ taught to His Disciples when they asked Jesus to teach them to pray?

Firstfruits

Butch5
Nov 16th 2008, 03:19 AM
Hi Veritax,

The answer to your question is multi-faceted. However, bear with me and I will show you how works are necessary for salvation. First, notice Paul says we are saved by faith, he doesn't say we are saved by faith only. There is only one verse of Scripture that says "faith only" and it says we are "not" saved by faith only. We saved by faith, Paul also says we are not saved by works. What does Paul mean by "works"? He speaks of two different kinds of works,

Ephesians 2:8-10 ( KJV ) 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Paul contrasts in his writings, works of the Law and good works. We see in Ephesians 2:10 that we were created for good woks. Now Paul says, for by grace are you saved through faith. The key word here is "saved." The Scriptures speak of salvation in three tenses, past (you were saved), present (you are being saved), and future (you shall be saved). When we were saved it was by grace through faith, we did no works, and we did not earn it. We believed what God said in the gospel. Now we are saved, however there is a multitude of conditional verses. Jesus said he who endure to the end shall be saved. This speaks of the future tense of salvation. While by faith we are saved, that saved condition is conditional, that is why Paul makes all of those "if" statements, Jesus tells us "he who endures to the end", and many, many, other statements. We must meet those conditions, some of which are works, as we see in Matthew 25,


Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 7:21 ( KJV ) 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Colossians 1:19-23 ( KJV ) 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

All of these verses and there are many more) are speaking to Christians, once we are "saved" (initially) we "must" do good works or we will not attain that future saved position. I'm sure you will agree that Paul was saved (initially), notice what he says,

Titus 1:1-2 ( KJV ) 1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
He says, "in hope of eternal life," Paul recognizes that he does not yet possess eternal life. Timothy surely was saved,


1 Timothy 6:11-12 ( KJV ) 11But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Paul tells Timothy to follow after, righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness, then tell him to lay hold of eternal life. Timothy was already saved (initially, by faith) yet Paul tells Him to lay hold of eternal life.
Paul tells Timothy to instruct the rich to do good works,

1 Timothy 6:17-19 ( KJV ) 17Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; 18That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
Why should they do good works? what is the reward? That they may lay hold of eternal life.
Paul also tells us here,

Romans 2:3-10 ( KJV ) 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Paul specifically says here that God will judge every man according to his deeds, and he makes it clear that those who do good works are seeking eternal life.
Now, remember it is Paul who tells us that we are saved by faith and not by works, yet here we have Paul saying that by doing good works we attain eternal life. Earlier I said that Paul speaks of two types of works, clearly the good works are necessary for salvation. So what are the works that don't save us? They are the works of hte Law, the Mosaic Law. Paul says several time that, by hte works of the Law no flesh shall be saved.
Now regarding sins being forgiven. When we are inittially saved and baptized our past sins are forgiven, both Peter and Paul state this,

2 Peter 1:9 ( KJV ) 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Romans 3:25 ( KJV ) 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Christ is the propitiation for all of our sins, yet only our past sins were forgiven when we were initially saved, future sins are forgiven through confessing our sins as John says.

1 John 1:8-9 ( KJV ) 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

My heart's Desire
Nov 16th 2008, 04:13 AM
Hi Veritax,


Paul contrasts in his writings, works of the Law and good works. We see in Ephesians 2:10 that we were created for good woks. Now Paul says, for by grace are you saved through faith. The key word here is "saved." The Scriptures speak of salvation in three tenses, past (you were saved), present (you are being saved), and future (you shall be saved). When we were saved it was by grace through faith, we did no works, and we did not earn it. We believed what God said in the gospel. Now we are saved, however there is a multitude of conditional verses. Jesus said he who endure to the end shall be saved. This speaks of the future tense of salvation. While by faith we are saved, that saved condition is conditional, that is why Paul makes all of those "if" statements, Jesus tells us "he who endures to the end", and many, many, other statements. We must meet those conditions, some of which are works, as we see in Matthew 25,


Which if true really would mean that after Christ saves you without conditions, He then makes conditions which a person has to fulfill oneself to keep themselves saved. I don't believe this is true. If it is, then salvation in the end depends on us and Not Christ and Christ's death, burial and resurrection didn't provide the complete sacrifice.
Or does it make Christ an indian giver..."Here is my gift as long as you don't sin, nor forget to confess a sin and continue in good works, but if you don't then I take salvation back from you.....
I don't think so.

To repeat: One either believes God or they just don't and they either trust Him for all of it or they don't believe Him for any of it.

Butch5
Nov 16th 2008, 04:34 AM
Which if true really would mean that after Christ saves you without conditions, He then makes conditions which a person has to fulfill oneself to keep themselves saved. I don't believe this is true. If it is, then salvation in the end depends on us and Not Christ and Christ's death, burial and resurrection didn't provide the complete sacrifice.
Or does it make Christ an indian giver..."Here is my gift as long as you don't sin, nor forget to confess a sin and continue in good works, but if you don't then I take salvation back from you.....
I don't think so.

To repeat: One either believes God or they just don't and they either trust Him for all of it or they don't believe Him for any of it.

Well, instead of "I don't think so", why don't you show me where I have misinterpreted something. Show me where Scripture says we are saved by faith alone. I have given multiple verses of Scripture and could give you many more that say we are not saved with out works, yet you have not even addressed them. Let's just look at two, tell how I have misunderstood them.


Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Romans 2:3-10 ( KJV ) 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Please tell me how I have misunderstood these two passages. Jesus clearly says those who do good deeds will get eternal and those who don't will not get eternal life.

Paul clearly says that God will judge every man according to his deeds. Those who by continual well doing are seeking eternal life.

My heart's Desire
Nov 16th 2008, 05:03 AM
Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Romans 2:3-10 ( KJV ) 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Please tell me how I have misunderstood these two passages. Jesus clearly says those who do good deeds will get eternal and those who don't will not get eternal life.

Paul clearly says that God will judge every man according to his deeds. Those who by continual well doing are seeking eternal life.
For the first verses given, this is the sheep and goat judgment that determines who enters the 1000 yr period of Christ's reign on earth, that is after the great Tribulation.
The Romans 2:3 verse you give makes it sound as if people are saved by their deeds. We know that no one can be saved by their deeds. As Romans 3: 23 says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Therefore, none can be saved by their deeds. If they are saved by deeds after salvation, then we would assume man can be saved by their deed before belief and I don't know many who believe that.

Romans 2:3-10 is making the case that there are NONE who can be saved by their deeds.
We see that clearly in verse 5 & 6
BUT BECAUSE OF your stubborness and unrepentant heart you ARE storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God,
Who will render to each person according to His deeds.
As Romans 3:9-10 also states What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are ALL under sin;
as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one...
Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith aprart from works of the Law.


8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth,

Who is the truth? Is it not the Lord Jesus? And how do we obey Him? We do so by believing in Him. It is those who obey Him by believing in Him for salvation, who are no longer contentious.

Not to mention that it is the stubborn and unrepentant who are storing up God's wrath and who will be judged by their deeds.

To continue: Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.....

The redeemed are no longer judged so those judged according to their deeds are those who didn't believe in Christ. Their deeds are the only things they had to stand on as their name was not in the book of life and they were judged of their deeds.

Butch5
Nov 16th 2008, 05:44 AM
My heart's Desire---For the first verses given, this is the sheep and goat judgment that determines who enters the 1000 yr period of Christ's reign on earth, that is after the great Tribulation.

Jesus says, those who the good deeds will enter eternal life, those who don't will not enter into eternal life. Jesus said nothing about the 1000 year reign.



My heart's Desire---The Romans 2:3 verse you give makes it sound as if people are saved by their deeds.

Yes it does, why? Because that is what it says.


My heart's Desire--- We know that no one can be saved by their deeds. As Romans 3: 23 says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.Therefore, none can be saved by their deeds.

How do we know that???
This verse doesn't say we are not saved by our deeds, it says everyone has sinned.



My heart's Desire--- If they are saved by deeds after salvation, then we would assume man can be saved by their deed before belief and I don't know many who believe that.

Not so, One can only enter into the covenant through faith.


My heart's Desire----Romans 2:3-10 is making the case that there are NONE who can be saved by their deeds.
We see that clearly in verse 5 & 6
BUT BECAUSE OF your stubborness and unrepentant heart you ARE storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God,
Who will render to each person according to His deeds.
As Romans 3:9-10 also states What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are ALL under sin;
as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one...
Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith aprart from works of the Law.


Sorry my friend, on the contrary, Paul says God will judge every man according to his deeds. Paul says those who continue to do good are seeking eternal life. Notice verse 28, justified apart from the "works of the law" not good works, which we were created for.



My heart's Desire---8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth,

Who is the truth? Is it not the Lord Jesus? And how do we obey Him? We do so by believing in Him. It is those who obey Him by believing in Him for salvation, who are no longer contentious.


John 14:21 ( KJV ) 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10 ( KJV ) 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Fathers commandments, and abide in his love.

We obey Him by keeping His commands.



My heart's Desire---To continue: Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.....

The redeemed are no longer judged so those judged according to their deeds are those who didn't believe in Christ. Their deeds are the only things they had to stand on as their name was not in the book of life and they were judged of their deeds.


Yea, the righteous were already judge according to their deeds.

Veretax
Nov 16th 2008, 02:08 PM
Which if true really would mean that after Christ saves you without conditions, He then makes conditions which a person has to fulfill oneself to keep themselves saved. I don't believe this is true. If it is, then salvation in the end depends on us and Not Christ and Christ's death, burial and resurrection didn't provide the complete sacrifice.
Or does it make Christ an indian giver..."Here is my gift as long as you don't sin, nor forget to confess a sin and continue in good works, but if you don't then I take salvation back from you.....
I don't think so.

To repeat: One either believes God or they just don't and they either trust Him for all of it or they don't believe Him for any of it.

This is precisely what I would have replied earlier. I think your misinterpretting that passage in ephesians.

The NKJV reads as follows:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Salvation is a Gift of God, not of Works, and certainly not of ourselves. Therefore if we preach any salvation which requires works, which would be of ourselves, then we preach an entirely different Gospel than Paul was preaching. Now. WHo is the "We" in Verse 10? It is those who are saved. We are his workmanship, and the we who are saved are Created in Christ Jesus. For what? FOr Good works? See there is a difference between saying that I must have faith, but my Good works keep me saved, as you have said, and doing what James said

JAmes 2

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

What is James saying? How exactly do you show your faith without works? Is that even possible? James wasn't done in verse 18 though.

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=James+1&section=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=&NavBook=jas&NavGo=1&NavNextChapter=%3E%3E&NavCurrentChapter=1#F8)

Faith without works is dead? Interesting. Now there are two ways to read this passage one that works keep faith alive as you have said, or two, simply that faith without works is in essence a dead (and utterly useless and empty) faith.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=James+1&section=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=&NavBook=jas&NavGo=1&NavNextChapter=%3E%3E&NavCurrentChapter=1#F9)And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Man is justified before man by works, for only God can know the heart of man. God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac and he was about to before God intervened. This was before the Law of Moses, but clearly Abraham knew that God would provide a way and would not ask this of him if he did not intend to redeem isaac. That's faith, and knowing that, having that faith, he followed through and did what was commanded because he had no doubts of his Lord. And what happened? God provided a substitute, and the test confirmed Abraham's faith in God. Works show to men outwardly what we believe inwardly.

Now we are Christians, and when we come to salvation we are a new creature, as EPH 10 Says, we are created in Christ Jesus, For a Purpose, to do good works. Why? So that our Testimony, which encompasses all of our actions and words would draw others to him. Works do not confirm Salvation, they make manifest the reality of a True saving faith.

Yukerboy
Nov 16th 2008, 02:49 PM
Works is the end result of faith. Faith without works is a dead faith, because faith in Christ must lead to works.

"We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ."

Works are produced by faith
Labor is preceded by love.
Endurance is gained through hope.

You are saved by grace (unmerited favor) through faith (being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see and your work produced by faith), and this not of yourselves (lest any man should boast), but a (irrevocable) gift of God.

As for confessing sins....

You have been cleansed once from ALL unrighteousness. God doesn't go part of the way. He knows the sins you committed in the past, present, and the future.

It is an example I brought up before. Suicide.

If you agree with me that suicide is a sin, then you agree that anyone who successfully committs suicide did not confess of that sin. Yet Christ states there is one sin that is unforgiveable....and it isn't suicide. So somehow suicide is forgiven. It is not because one has repented of it. No, the Christian has repented of his sin nature, crucified to Christ. That doesn't mean the Christian will never do something against the law again.

Yuke

looking4jesus
Nov 16th 2008, 03:11 PM
Works is the end result of faith. Faith without works is a dead faith, because faith in Christ must lead to works.

"We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ."

Works are produced by faith
Labor is preceded by love.
Endurance is gained through hope.

You are saved by grace (unmerited favor) through faith (being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see and your work produced by faith), and this not of yourselves (lest any man should boast), but a (irrevocable) gift of God.

As for confessing sins....

You have been cleansed once from ALL unrighteousness. God doesn't go part of the way. He knows the sins you committed in the past, present, and the future.

It is an example I brought up before. Suicide.

If you agree with me that suicide is a sin, then you agree that anyone who successfully committs suicide did not confess of that sin. Yet Christ states there is one sin that is unforgiveable....and it isn't suicide. So somehow suicide is forgiven. It is not because one has repented of it. No, the Christian has repented of his sin nature, crucified to Christ. That doesn't mean the Christian will never do something against the law again.

Yuke


Yes good example..It is simply past, present and future sins but Butch will never ever agree so this debate with him will go on until he sees for himself the truth..just kidding Butch but one day we will all see the truth for what it is and all of us will have some crow to eat..
God Bless
Randy

Yukerboy
Nov 16th 2008, 03:50 PM
one day we will all see the truth for what it is and all of us will have some crow to eat

When I meet Christ face to face, I plan on Him saying "Well done, good and faithful servant," then afterwards taking me by the shoulders and going through the Bible with me saying "Yuke, you nailed it here, here, and there, but you were WAAAAYYYY off there, there, and here."

Firstfruits
Nov 16th 2008, 06:14 PM
Yes good example..It is simply past, present and future sins but Butch will never ever agree so this debate with him will go on until he sees for himself the truth..just kidding Butch but one day we will all see the truth for what it is and all of us will have some crow to eat..
God Bless
Randy

According to the following scripture where does it mention future sins?

Rom 3:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Do you have scriptures to show otherwise?

Firstfruits

Veretax
Nov 16th 2008, 08:02 PM
According to the following scripture where does it mention future sins?

Rom 3:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Do you have scriptures to show otherwise?

Firstfruits


If its only talking of the Past as if its a Limited Timeline, then how could anyone after Christ find propitiation for sin? Its ridiculuous to think that this is only referring to one time looking back from Christ. Furthermore, Christ died ONCE, not multiple times as was the way of the sacrifices in the temple. Why? Because Christ's sacrifice was a perfect blameless sacrifice.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever believe on him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It doesn't say he who believes and then remains sinless. It says to them who believe.


(Let's also remember God Knows all and has seen our timeline, he is out side our time therefore it is probably all in the past.)

Butch5
Nov 16th 2008, 08:17 PM
Works is the end result of faith. Faith without works is a dead faith, because faith in Christ must lead to works.

"We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ."

Works are produced by faith
Labor is preceded by love.
Endurance is gained through hope.

You are saved by grace (unmerited favor) through faith (being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see and your work produced by faith), and this not of yourselves (lest any man should boast), but a (irrevocable) gift of God.


As for confessing sins....

You have been cleansed once from ALL unrighteousness. God doesn't go part of the way. He knows the sins you committed in the past, present, and the future.

It is an example I brought up before. Suicide.

If you agree with me that suicide is a sin, then you agree that anyone who successfully committs suicide did not confess of that sin. Yet Christ states there is one sin that is unforgiveable....and it isn't suicide. So somehow suicide is forgiven. It is not because one has repented of it. No, the Christian has repented of his sin nature, crucified to Christ. That doesn't mean the Christian will never do something against the law again.

Yuke

Yukerboy,

Why do you try to use human logic to nullify the Scriptures? You can use the suicide argument all you want, Paul and Peter both Clearly say that your past sins are forgiven. John Clearly says "IF" we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. If all of your sins were forgiven when you were saved, what is there for God to forgive? Do you know the gospel better than the apostles? Do you know the gospel better than Jesus? Jesus said,

Matthew 6:14-15 ( KJV ) 14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

If all of your sins were already forgiven how can Jesus say this???

looking4jesus
Nov 16th 2008, 08:24 PM
According to the following scripture where does it mention future sins?

Rom 3:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Do you have scriptures to show otherwise?

Firstfruits

It is there and has been quoted but beating this dead horse is really a waste of time. All sin means all..look up the scripture that says all sin and do not mess with it by putting your own qualifier on it. All means all.
But truly I am done with this debate it is very much nonsense after a while..
Like if God is so powerful can he make a rock he cannot move..
Converstation thta go on so long like this are fruitless or bear bad fruit.
God Bless
randy

Butch5
Nov 16th 2008, 10:01 PM
It is there and has been quoted but beating this dead horse is really a waste of time. All sin means all..look up the scripture that says all sin and do not mess with it by putting your own qualifier on it. All means all.
But truly I am done with this debate it is very much nonsense after a while..
Like if God is so powerful can he make a rock he cannot move..
Converstation thta go on so long like this are fruitless or bear bad fruit.
God Bless
randy

See Randy, this is the problem most Christians have (no offense). You have two Scriptures here and instead of trying to reconcile them with each other, you just ignore the one you don't want in favor of the one you do want.

How can it be all sins and at the same time be past sins? You must reconcile them or ignore one of them.

Which verse are you referring to that says all sins and I will look it up.

Butch5
Nov 16th 2008, 10:12 PM
It is there and has been quoted but beating this dead horse is really a waste of time. All sin means all..look up the scripture that says all sin and do not mess with it by putting your own qualifier on it. All means all.
But truly I am done with this debate it is very much nonsense after a while..
Like if God is so powerful can he make a rock he cannot move..
Converstation thta go on so long like this are fruitless or bear bad fruit.
God Bless
randy

Here is one verse,


Mark 3:28-30 ( KJV ) 28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Here, all sins must mean all kinds of sins, look at the context. All sins and blasphemies shall be given the sons of men, If all sins are forgiven of the sons of men then everyone would be saved, which the Bible clearly says is not the case. So in this case all sins cannot mean every sin, and must mean every kind of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven the sons of men, "EXCEPT" blasphemy of the holy Spirit. This kind of sin will not be forgiven.

Veretax
Nov 17th 2008, 12:59 AM
Yukerboy,

Why do you try to use human logic to nullify the Scriptures? You can use the suicide argument all you want, Paul and Peter both Clearly say that your past sins are forgiven. John Clearly says "IF" we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. If all of your sins were forgiven when you were saved, what is there for God to forgive? Do you know the gospel better than the apostles? Do you know the gospel better than Jesus? Jesus said,

Matthew 6:14-15 ( KJV ) 14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

If all of your sins were already forgiven how can Jesus say this???

I think your missing what he's saying. Its a what if, a hypothetical, but all of our sins are forgiven. It makes no sense that Christ's sacrifice pays for only those sins that we committed in the past (assuming before faith here). It must be the sins of all and is applied as a propitiation for those sins to those who have faith.

However, you have raised a good point. Clearly there is ample evidence from scripture that we are told to confess our sins to God to be forgiven. The question is why? As I've said a few times on this forum, we are new creature sin Christ, those of us who are saved, and when we are made new creatures we are created in Christ for Good Works.

We are called to do these things. Why? To be ambassadors for Christ.



2 Corinthians 5:16-21 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin
We are to do good works, not because it saves us, but to show our testimony, and to draw others to reconcile with God.


I'll end with this thought from Johns first epistle:

1 John 5:10-13 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

BroRog
Nov 17th 2008, 01:26 AM
John Clearly says "IF" we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. If all of your sins were forgiven when you were saved, what is there for God to forgive?

It's easy to confuse "if" with "when". In my view, John isn't saying "when we confess our sins", he is saying "if we confess our sins." The issue for John is not whether we have confessed each and every sin we commit, which in my case would be a herculean task. The significance of his statement comes from his contrasting statement earlier.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The contrast is between those who say they have no sin, and those who confess their sins. And he is making a general descriptive statement not an imperative statement of command. He isn't saying, "Confess each sin as you commit it." Which is how you are taking it. He is trying to describe how he and the other apostles are distinct from the false teachers.

They say they have fellowship with God; so do we. But they walk in darkness and we walk in the light. They say they have no sin; but we confess our sins. We look to Jesus to cleanse us from our sins, and while they call him a liar, saying they have no sins from which to be cleansed.

John is not saying, "catalog all your sins and confess each and every one", and he certainly doesn't say, "if you forget one, you are damned to hell."

Butch5
Nov 17th 2008, 05:02 AM
It's easy to confuse "if" with "when". In my view, John isn't saying "when we confess our sins", he is saying "if we confess our sins." The issue for John is not whether we have confessed each and every sin we commit, which in my case would be a herculean task. The significance of his statement comes from his contrasting statement earlier.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The contrast is between those who say they have no sin, and those who confess their sins. And he is making a general descriptive statement not an imperative statement of command. He isn't saying, "Confess each sin as you commit it." Which is how you are taking it. He is trying to describe how he and the other apostles are distinct from the false teachers.

They say they have fellowship with God; so do we. But they walk in darkness and we walk in the light. They say they have no sin; but we confess our sins. We look to Jesus to cleanse us from our sins, and while they call him a liar, saying they have no sins from which to be cleansed.

John is not saying, "catalog all your sins and confess each and every one", and he certainly doesn't say, "if you forget one, you are damned to hell."

Where did you get the idea that I was saying each and every sin had to be confessed? I never said that. My point was that not every sin we will ever commit was forgiven when we were saved. When we were save our past sins were forgiven, our future sins are forgiven by confessing to God. I never said if you forget to confess a sin, that's it, it's over. Paul says there is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit.

My heart's Desire
Nov 17th 2008, 05:58 AM
Jesus says, those who the good deeds will enter eternal life, those who don't will not enter into eternal life. Jesus said nothing about the 1000 year reign.




Yes it does, why? Because that is what it says.



How do we know that???
This verse doesn't say we are not saved by our deeds, it says everyone has sinned.




Not so, One can only enter into the covenant through faith.



Sorry my friend, on the contrary, Paul says God will judge every man according to his deeds. Paul says those who continue to do good are seeking eternal life. Notice verse 28, justified apart from the "works of the law" not good works, which we were created for.




Who is the truth? Is it not the Lord Jesus? And how do we obey Him? We do so by believing in Him. It is those who obey Him by believing in Him for salvation, who are no longer contentious.


John 14:21 ( KJV ) 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10 ( KJV ) 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Fathers commandments, and abide in his love.

We obey Him by keeping His commands.




Yea, the righteous were already judge according to their deeds.
Focusing on deeds becomes a Works bought Salvation. Fortunately for us, Christ has done all the Work needed to saved sinners who cannot work to please God. The work of God is to believe in His Son.

If keeping His commands makes sure that we remain saved all our lives then please tell me what are all of those commandments that we must continue in doing in order to remain saved. If these insure our salvation then surely everyone knows what they are.

Veretax
Nov 17th 2008, 11:47 AM
Where did you get the idea that I was saying each and every sin had to be confessed? I never said that. My point was that not every sin we will ever commit was forgiven when we were saved. When we were save our past sins were forgiven, our future sins are forgiven by confessing to God. I never said if you forget to confess a sin, that's it, it's over. Paul says there is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit.

Interesting. So all of us live 2000 or so years after Christ was Crucified, thus every sin we have ever committed was in the Future in respect to the Resurrection. So why is it you think that Christ's sacrifice was only sufficient for those we commit before we are saved, if all of our sins were in the future after he Rose from the dead?

Firstfruits
Nov 17th 2008, 01:55 PM
Interesting. So all of us live 2000 or so years after Christ was Crucified, thus every sin we have ever committed was in the Future in respect to the Resurrection. So why is it you think that Christ's sacrifice was only sufficient for those we commit before we are saved, if all of our sins were in the future after he Rose from the dead?

When we come to Christ and we ask for him to forgive our debts/sins Jesus forgives us up to the point of our repentance. If we sin after that we again need to ask forgiveness of our sin we commited after that point.

If all we had to do was repent of our sins and have all, past present and future forgiven at that point then except for Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost we can live as we choose because we are already forgiven of ALL our sins.

For what reason can we not live as we choose if all our sins past present and future are fogiven.

Firstfruits

BroRog
Nov 17th 2008, 02:30 PM
Where did you get the idea that I was saying each and every sin had to be confessed? I never said that. My point was that not every sin we will ever commit was forgiven when we were saved. When we were save our past sins were forgiven, our future sins are forgiven by confessing to God. I never said if you forget to confess a sin, that's it, it's over. Paul says there is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit.

What's your point then? On what basis are your past sins forgiven but not your future sins? And why insist that God will forgive your sins if you confess them but if you forget, or if you don't confess them, God is going to save you any way?

Butch5
Nov 17th 2008, 02:58 PM
What's your point then? On what basis are your past sins forgiven but not your future sins? And why insist that God will forgive your sins if you confess them but if you forget, or if you don't confess them, God is going to save you any way?

I made my point. Christ is the propitiation for all sins, however, it is appropriated conditionally. Only those who believe are able to appropriate this propitiation. When ewe believe, through faith, our past sins are forgiven. Both Peter and Paul make this clear. Where in Scripture do we find any statement saying future sins are pre forgiven? If they were, there would be no reason for John to say "if we confess our sins, He is faith and just to forgive us our sins. John is writing this to believers.

Veretax
Nov 17th 2008, 03:14 PM
When we come to Christ and we ask for him to forgive our debts/sins Jesus forgives us up to the point of our repentance. If we sin after that we again need to ask forgiveness of our sin we commited after that point.

If all we had to do was repent of our sins and have all, past present and future forgiven at that point then except for Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost we can live as we choose because we are already forgiven of ALL our sins.

For what reason can we not live as we choose if all our sins past present and future are fogiven.

Firstfruits


I think you are misunderstanding me. I am not saying that we should not confess, and should not strive for what is right and Good, I am saying that the purpose of such after we have come to the faith, is NOT to maintain salvation.

When we are saved we are a new creature, Christ is the cornerstone and foundation upon which we must build. The reason we must be careful of our actions, and try to keep a short account with God, is not to maintain the foundation, but so that what we build upon it is strong and will endure through future testing.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


It also is clear that if we build in error, if we build with those things that are temporary, earthly, or perishable, we shall suffer loss, yet we shall be saved as through Fire. There is a principle in scripture, particularly the NT about rewards. Christ Said as much:

Matthew 16:24-28
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Paul reminds us that each one's labor is unique and each will be rewarded accordingly.

1 Corinthians 3:5-10
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.

Paul also warned us to not let anyone cheat us of our rewards. Why? Because some will come to deceive us and will try to lead us astray.

Colossians 2:16-19
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

So we need to do our service for the Lord, and be careful that its not for men as seen below:

Colssians 3:22-25

22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.

We are to do these things for God, not for eye service as men-pleasers, but with sincerity Fearing God.

In Hebrews we are warned about neglecting our salvation:

Heb 2:1-4

Hebrews 2:1-4
1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?


Clearly, there is a reward/Consequence for good and also sinful behavior, but for Believers, this does not remove salvation, it will be a suffered Loss.

Hebrews 10:32-39

32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: 37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


Again here, those who draw back the Lord has no Pleasure in, but clearly, there is some reward for believers.


John Also warned about losing our rewards

2 John 1:7-9
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.


Clearly continuing in Sin after Faith is not what the Lord intends for us to do.

Romans is a great discourse on this subject of rewards:

Romans 6:1-5
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Clearly, we who are baptized into Christ Jesus will be raised in the likeness of his resurrection. We as believers have been made like him, by being rendered dead unto sin and alive unto righteousness... For as we will see here our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with. We who are believers are no longer Slaves of Sin.


Rom 6:6-10


6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.



Wow, the death taht He (Christ) died, he died to sin once for all, bu the life that He Lives He Lives to God. Wow powerful verse there. Clearly Christ died for sin Once for all. There can be no doubt of this, once for all time.

Rom 6:11-14
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


Because we are free from sin we should not let it reign in our mortal bodies. We do not have to obey it where before we were slaves unto sin. Sin does not have dominion over us anymore, we are no longer under the law, but now we are under grace.


Rom 6:15-23

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Now that we are set free from Sin, we have the fruit to Holineess, and the end, everlasting life. Clearly, Believers are who Paul is talking about. Salvation once accepted is not a gift that can be lost. That doesn't mean we have excuse or license to sin, far from it, but This is clear from the bible


Let us not forget what Peter also reminded us.

1 Peter 1:6-9
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.


Rejoice, for we who believe have been Freed from sin, and now we can go about the labors Christ has set before us with Joy, knowing that we shall inherit the rewards for our actions.

Firstfruits
Nov 17th 2008, 03:43 PM
I think you are misunderstanding me. I am not saying that we should not confess, and should not strive for what is right and Good, I am saying that the purpose of such after we have come to the faith, is NOT to maintain salvation.

When we are saved we are a new creature, Christ is the cornerstone and foundation upon which we must build. The reason we must be careful of our actions, and try to keep a short account with God, is not to maintain the foundation, but so that what we build upon it is strong and will endure through future testing.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


It also is clear that if we build in error, if we build with those things that are temporary, earthly, or perishable, we shall suffer loss, yet we shall be saved as through Fire. There is a principle in scripture, particularly the NT about rewards. Christ Said as much:

Matthew 16:24-28
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Paul reminds us that each one's labor is unique and each will be rewarded accordingly.

1 Corinthians 3:5-10
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.

Paul also warned us to not let anyone cheat us of our rewards. Why? Because some will come to deceive us and will try to lead us astray.

Colossians 2:16-19
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

So we need to do our service for the Lord, and be careful that its not for men as seen below:

Colssians 3:22-25

22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.

We are to do these things for God, not for eye service as men-pleasers, but with sincerity Fearing God.

In Hebrews we are warned about neglecting our salvation:

Heb 2:1-4

Hebrews 2:1-4
1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?


Clearly, there is a reward/Consequence for good and also sinful behavior, but for Believers, this does not remove salvation, it will be a suffered Loss.

Hebrews 10:32-39

32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: 37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


Again here, those who draw back the Lord has no Pleasure in, but clearly, there is some reward for believers.


John Also warned about losing our rewards

2 John 1:7-9
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.


Clearly continuing in Sin after Faith is not what the Lord intends for us to do.

Romans is a great discourse on this subject of rewards:

Romans 6:1-5
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Clearly, we who are baptized into Christ Jesus will be raised in the likeness of his resurrection. We as believers have been made like him, by being rendered dead unto sin and alive unto righteousness... For as we will see here our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with. We who are believers are no longer Slaves of Sin.


Rom 6:6-10


6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.



Wow, the death taht He (Christ) died, he died to sin once for all, bu the life that He Lives He Lives to God. Wow powerful verse there. Clearly Christ died for sin Once for all. There can be no doubt of this, once for all time.

Rom 6:11-14
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


Because we are free from sin we should not let it reign in our mortal bodies. We do not have to obey it where before we were slaves unto sin. Sin does not have dominion over us anymore, we are no longer under the law, but now we are under grace.


Rom 6:15-23

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Now that we are set free from Sin, we have the fruit to Holineess, and the end, everlasting life. Clearly, Believers are who Paul is talking about. Salvation once accepted is not a gift that can be lost. That doesn't mean we have excuse or license to sin, far from it, but This is clear from the bible


Let us not forget what Peter also reminded us.

1 Peter 1:6-9
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.


Rejoice, for we who believe have been Freed from sin, and now we can go about the labors Christ has set before us with Joy, knowing that we shall inherit the rewards for our actions.

If as you say we need to confess/repent if we sin after we have already been saved, does that imply that there is a danger if we do sin and do not repent/confess?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Nov 17th 2008, 03:51 PM
we can live as we choose because we are already forgiven of ALL our sins

Amen and absolutely. As Paul said we do that which we do not want to do. If we are led by the Spirit, then our spirit has no desire to sin, though the flesh does.

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

These are three actions taken at once at the time of salvation. You become justified, sanctified, and washed in one fell swoop.

Just as Paul points out that it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Then, Paul later in the same book says no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law.

No one will follow all the law. All have sinned. Christ washes His own from all unrighteousness. All means all. Not just past, but all.

See my post earlier on what sin is. Trespassing the law. It is impossible to trespass the law when you are no longer under that law. Thus, showing why John tells us that it is impossible for one who abides in Christ to sin.

Yuke

Veretax
Nov 17th 2008, 04:04 PM
If as you say we need to confess/repent if we sin after we have already been saved, does that imply that there is a danger if we do sin and do not repent/confess?

Firstfruits


I thought I covered that in my last post. Sin hinders our relationship with God, and its not just breaking the Law either, its devoting our time to things we should not, buying things we should not etc.

I believe building with the wrong materials results in a loss of potential rewards. If I wasn't clear on that I'm sorry, but I felt it necessary in my last post to lay out how I believe the bible speaks on this matter. We are already forgiven from Sin, but that by no means means that Sin after Salvation does not have its consequences. We who believe are saved, the ultimate wage from Sin (as seen at the end of revelation) is taken away.

Firstfruits
Nov 17th 2008, 04:20 PM
I thought I covered that in my last post. Sin hinders our relationship with God, and its not just breaking the Law either, its devoting our time to things we should not, buying things we should not etc.

I believe building with the wrong materials results in a loss of potential rewards. If I wasn't clear on that I'm sorry, but I felt it necessary in my last post to lay out how I believe the bible speaks on this matter. We are already forgiven from Sin, but that by no means means that Sin after Salvation does not have its consequences. We who believe are saved, the ultimate wage from Sin (as seen at the end of revelation) is taken away.

If sin after salvation does not prevent us from entry into heaven which is our goal, then what consequences do we have to worry about as long as we get to Heaven?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Nov 17th 2008, 04:23 PM
1 Corinthians 3:14-15 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Veretax
Nov 17th 2008, 05:47 PM
If sin after salvation does not prevent us from entry into heaven which is our goal, then what consequences do we have to worry about as long as we get to Heaven?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy already answered that for you :D


1 Corinthians 3:14-15 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Firstfruits
Nov 17th 2008, 07:01 PM
Yukerboy already answered that for you :D

But that does not say anything about losing anything that would prevent us from remaining as we are, sinning or not sinning.

If we know that nothing we do will prevent us from getting to Heaven then once we are saved we have no need to change our life style because we will still go to Heaven.

Is there or is there not a reason to change?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 17th 2008, 07:05 PM
1 Corinthians 3:14-15 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Thanks Yukerboy,

Since the only thing we have is to believe on the Lord and we will be saved, if after we have been saved we turn away from the truth, because we have already been saved will we still go to Heaven?

Veretax
Nov 17th 2008, 07:14 PM
Thanks Yukerboy,

Since the only thing we have is to believe on the Lord and we will be saved, if after we have been saved we turn away from the truth, because we have already been saved will we still go to Heaven?

See here's where I disagree. A changed life is evidence of a changed heart. a Life that is unchanged makes salvation suspect at least to those around us. Plus, I'm a firm believer that when we are recreated in Christ, he immediately begins to make repairs and break us of our many Sin habbits.. I've known folks who were addicts of one kind or another, and when they got saved, they suddenly were able to overcome those addictions. Many of them had tried before and failed. That to me is because of the power of Christ within us. Also, people that have this attitude, "I've got faith, I don't have to do nothing else." Are going to be rather embarrassed when Christ starts handing out rewards at the end, and they end up with nothing, but a single admissions pass.




But that does not say anything about losing anything that would prevent us from remaining as we are, sinning or not sinning.

If we know that nothing we do will prevent us from getting to Heaven then once we are saved we have no need to change our life style because we will still go to Heaven.

Is there or is there not a reason to change?

Firstfruits


Not according to Hebrews. Hebrews says it is impossible for someone who has "tasted of the heavenly gift" and turned away, to renew them again to repentance.

Firstfruits
Nov 17th 2008, 07:38 PM
See here's where I disagree. A changed life is evidence of a changed heart. a Life that is unchanged makes salvation suspect at least to those around us. Plus, I'm a firm believer that when we are recreated in Christ, he immediately begins to make repairs and break us of our many Sin habbits.. I've known folks who were addicts of one kind or another, and when they got saved, they suddenly were able to overcome those addictions. Many of them had tried before and failed. That to me is because of the power of Christ within us. Also, people that have this attitude, "I've got faith, I don't have to do nothing else." Are going to be rather embarrassed when Christ starts handing out rewards at the end, and they end up with nothing, but a single admissions pass.






Not according to Hebrews. Hebrews says it is impossible for someone who has "tasted of the heavenly gift" and turned away, to renew them again to repentance.

So then what does it mean to turn away? Would you agree that if you were not saved in the first place you could not turn away from something you never had?

Why would you renew someone to righteousness if they were never there in the first place?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits

Veretax
Nov 17th 2008, 08:09 PM
Here's the verse:

Heb 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, F26 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=heb+6:6&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1#F26) to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.


What I am saying is if you Believe it possible to lose salvation, this verse seems pretty clear that for those who were once enlightened and had become partakers of the Holy Spirit, if they fall away to renew them again to Repentance. Notice the ending language: since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.


This is why I've been saying Christ died once for the sins of man, and is sufficient for all sins in all time. Now, I will add that there are some who argue about the interpretation of this passage, but I think its pretty simple to understand.


If you are not saved, meaning as paul says you are slaves of Sin, how can you turn away from rigtheousness/salvation if in effect you are already turned away from it? We are running in circles here, and I don't think this is a difficult concept. If a person is not saved, they are slaves to sin.

Now, In the passage I cite from Hebrews, it says its impossible to renew such a person. I am of the belief that this sort of thing is quite rare in the church.

Yukerboy
Nov 17th 2008, 10:39 PM
I'll be honest, Hebrews 6:4-6 is the most difficult passage in the whole Bible for me to reconcile with.

The whole 1 John thing that most NOSAS bring up about a Christian not being able to sin, I have shown that John has said it is impossible for a Christian who is saved to sin. Can't be done. It is not that we shouldn't, but that we no longer have the ability. And Paul agrees with and proves that point.

And I know where Firstfruits is going. The whole License to sin mentality. We do have license to sin, to do as we so choose without any loss of salvation. But we, being a new creature in Christ, have had the old creature crucified. We no longer do that which we want to do, but we do that which we don't want to do.

As for Hebrews 6:4-6...I don't know, I don't have an answer, but I can not break down a foundation I have found to be in harmony with all of the New Testament save for this passage. Neither OSAS nor NOSAS has less faults than one passage. I will take that.

Yuke

BroRog
Nov 17th 2008, 11:06 PM
I made my point. Christ is the propitiation for all sins, however, it is appropriated conditionally. Only those who believe are able to appropriate this propitiation. When ewe believe, through faith, our past sins are forgiven. Both Peter and Paul make this clear. Where in Scripture do we find any statement saying future sins are pre forgiven? If they were, there would be no reason for John to say "if we confess our sins, He is faith and just to forgive us our sins. John is writing this to believers.

First, I'm not the only one to point out that all of our sins are in the future relative to the cross. So your distinction between past sins and future sins is really meaningless.

Second, your interpretation of 1John needs work because John is not giving a command, i.e. confess each sin as you do it. He is making a comparison between those who say they have no sin and those who confess their sins, which is descriptive not prescriptive.

So, what is at stake? Why do you insist that our future sins are not pre-forgiven? Is there some reason why you need this to be true?

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 02:53 AM
I'll be honest, Hebrews 6:4-6 is the most difficult passage in the whole Bible for me to reconcile with.

The whole 1 John thing that most NOSAS bring up about a Christian not being able to sin, I have shown that John has said it is impossible for a Christian who is saved to sin. Can't be done. It is not that we shouldn't, but that we no longer have the ability. And Paul agrees with and proves that point.

And I know where Firstfruits is going. The whole License to sin mentality. We do have license to sin, to do as we so choose without any loss of salvation. But we, being a new creature in Christ, have had the old creature crucified. We no longer do that which we want to do, but we do that which we don't want to do.

As for Hebrews 6:4-6...I don't know, I don't have an answer, but I can not break down a foundation I have found to be in harmony with all of the New Testament save for this passage. Neither OSAS nor NOSAS has less faults than one passage. I will take that.

Yuke

Well, if you have a hard time with Hebrews 6:4-6, what do you do with,

Hebrews 10:25-30 ( KJV ) 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

This person was sanctified by tghe blood of Christ, yet it says he has trampled the Son of God underfoot and counted the blood an unholy thing.

This alos present a problem with your idea that a Christian cannot sin.

How about this one,

Hebrews 10:38-39 ( KJV ) 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The writers says that He is not of them who draw back to perdition. Remeber Judas was a son of perdition.

How about this one,

2 Peter 2:1-2 ( KJV ) 1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

BroRog
Nov 18th 2008, 03:23 AM
Well, if you have a hard time with Hebrews 6:4-6, what do you do with,

Hebrews 10:25-30 ( KJV ) 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

This person was sanctified by tghe blood of Christ, yet it says he has trampled the Son of God underfoot and counted the blood an unholy thing.

This alos present a problem with your idea that a Christian cannot sin.

How about this one,

Hebrews 10:38-39 ( KJV ) 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The writers says that He is not of them who draw back to perdition. Remeber Judas was a son of perdition.

How about this one,

2 Peter 2:1-2 ( KJV ) 1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

If Paul was talking exclusively about himself, then why did he use the first person plural "we"? Why do you read the conditionals as emphatic imperatives and ignore statements like "we are convinced otherwise of you?"

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 03:29 AM
If Paul was talking exclusively about himself, then why did he use the first person plural "we"? Why do you read the conditionals as emphatic imperatives and ignore statements like "we are convinced otherwise of you?"

He wasn't speaking of just Himself, I didn't say He was speaiing of just Himself. However He is one of the the group "we."

BroRog
Nov 18th 2008, 03:31 AM
He wasn't speaking of just Himself, I didn't say He was speaiing of just Himself. However He is one of the the group "we."

No doubt. So who are the others? His readers or someone else?

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 03:49 AM
First, I'm not the only one to point out that all of our sins are in the future relative to the cross. So your distinction between past sins and future sins is really meaningless.

Second, your interpretation of 1John needs work because John is not giving a command, i.e. confess each sin as you do it. He is making a comparison between those who say they have no sin and those who confess their sins, which is descriptive not prescriptive.

So, what is at stake? Why do you insist that our future sins are not pre-forgiven? Is there some reason why you need this to be true?

BroRog,

This is clear, all of our sins were future at the cross, however this has "nothing" to do with what I said. What I said was, all of "OUR" past sins were forgiven when we believed. The sins we committed "before" we were saved, these are the past sins. God overlooked our sins before we were saved, Paul says that Christ, through faith, is a propitiation for our past sins, the ones we committed before we were saved. He makes "no" mention of future sins being forgiven. Peter also says this,


2 Peter 1:5-11 ( KJV ) 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

He was purged of his "OLD" sins, he doesn't say all sins, he doesn't say future sins, he says old sins.


Romans 3:24-25 ( KJV ) 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To be a propitiation for sins that are "past." He desn't say all sins, he doesn't say future sins, he says past sins.


BroRog---So, what is at stake? Why do you insist that our future sins are not pre-forgiven? Is there some reason why you need this to be true?


It is what Scripture says. Is there some reason you need it not to be true?

Veretax
Nov 18th 2008, 11:37 AM
BroRog,

This is clear, all of our sins were future at the cross, however this has "nothing" to do with what I said. What I said was, all of "OUR" past sins were forgiven when we believed. The sins we committed "before" we were saved, these are the past sins. God overlooked our sins before we were saved, Paul says that Christ, through faith, is a propitiation for our past sins, the ones we committed before we were saved. He makes "no" mention of future sins being forgiven. Peter also says this,


2 Peter 1:5-11 ( KJV ) 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

He was purged of his "OLD" sins, he doesn't say all sins, he doesn't say future sins, he says old sins.


Romans 3:24-25 ( KJV ) 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To be a propitiation for sins that are "past." He desn't say all sins, he doesn't say future sins, he says past sins.



It is what Scripture says. Is there some reason you need it not to be true?


So your saying that Christ's sacrifice on the Cross only saves from Sin's before we are saved? If that is so then why do we not only try to save people right on the cusp of death. Why push to evangelize the lost if they are just going to have to live according to the law after they are saved? Does the Law save?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 18th 2008, 03:15 PM
BroRog,

This is clear, all of our sins were future at the cross, however this has "nothing" to do with what I said. What I said was, all of "OUR" past sins were forgiven when we believed. The sins we committed "before" we were saved, these are the past sins. God overlooked our sins before we were saved, Paul says that Christ, through faith, is a propitiation for our past sins, the ones we committed before we were saved. He makes "no" mention of future sins being forgiven. Peter also says this,


2 Peter 1:5-11 ( KJV ) 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

He was purged of his "OLD" sins, he doesn't say all sins, he doesn't say future sins, he says old sins.


Romans 3:24-25 ( KJV ) 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To be a propitiation for sins that are "past." He desn't say all sins, he doesn't say future sins, he says past sins.



It is what Scripture says. Is there some reason you need it not to be true?

Hi Butch

Paul speaks of sins past, in that they were never taken away, they were only covered. If animals sacrificed could take away our sins, then we would not have needed Jesus Christ to come.

sheina maidle
Nov 18th 2008, 03:22 PM
So your saying that Christ's sacrifice on the Cross only saves from Sin's before we are saved? If that is so then why do we not only try to save people right on the cusp of death. Why push to evangelize the lost if they are just going to have to live according to the law after they are saved? Does the Law save?
Great points! Amen!

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:1-2)

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1 Peter 2:24)

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

These verses (and there are more) specifically state that Jesus died and shed His blood for the sins of the whole world...either His blood was and is sufficient to cover ALL sin (past, present, and future) or every person is still "dead in trespasses and sin" (Eph. 2:1), without hope of eternal salvation (on their way to hell).

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)

Praise the Lord!

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 04:21 AM
So your saying that Christ's sacrifice on the Cross only saves from Sin's before we are saved? If that is so then why do we not only try to save people right on the cusp of death. Why push to evangelize the lost if they are just going to have to live according to the law after they are saved? Does the Law save?


No, you are only getting part of what I said. The post you are responding to was to clarify a point in another post. Christ is a propitiation for all of our sins, however, when we believe, only our past sins, sins we committed before we were saved are forgiven. Someone said, when we are saved all of our sins, past, present, and future are forgiven. There is no mention of future sins being forgiven at the time when we're saved. Christ is a propitiation for our future sins, however they were not forgiven back at the time we were saved. That is what Paul and Peter are saying.

Veretax
Nov 19th 2008, 12:52 PM
No, you are only getting part of what I said. The post you are responding to was to clarify a point in another post. Christ is a propitiation for all of our sins, however, when we believe, only our past sins, sins we committed before we were saved are forgiven. Someone said, when we are saved all of our sins, past, present, and future are forgiven. There is no mention of future sins being forgiven at the time when we're saved. Christ is a propitiation for our future sins, however they were not forgiven back at the time we were saved. That is what Paul and Peter are saying.

Well I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on that point.

1Jo 2:2 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+2:2&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+2:2&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1)And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
It seems to me that you need to remember who John is writing to here. Christians. Christ is the Propitiation of the sins of believers, AND it is clear he is also the propitiation for the whole world. That to me seems to cover ALL sin save for the one unpardonable one that was specifically mentioned by Christ.

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 01:23 PM
Well I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on that point.

1Jo 2:2 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+2:2&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+2:2&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1)And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
It seems to me that you need to remember who John is writing to here. Christians. Christ is the Propitiation of the sins of believers, AND it is clear he is also the propitiation for the whole world. That to me seems to cover ALL sin save for the one unpardonable one that was specifically mentioned by Christ.


I agree with you. It does cover all sin.

Firstfruits
Nov 19th 2008, 02:57 PM
I agree with you. It does cover all sin.

What I would say here is that Jesus can without doubt forgive all sin except one. If we therefore sin we know we can call upon Jeus to forgive us of sins that we have commtted, not yet to commit.

Firstfruits

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 03:41 PM
What I would say here is that Jesus can without doubt forgive all sin except one. If we therefore sin we know we can call upon Jeus to forgive us of sins that we have commtted, not yet to commit.

Firstfruits

That is the point I was trying to get across.

BroRog
Nov 20th 2008, 12:33 AM
That is the point I was trying to get across.

If we appropriate our propitiation by faith, and I agree with you here, then why can't I believe, by faith (as you put it) that my future sins are forgiven? I don't have to ask for forgiveness in the future because I already have faith in the promise that they will be forgiven. Why ask for something I already have?

I suspect that you have something else in mind laying behind your point about future sins. Are you afraid that if you accept that your sins will be forgiven that you will take a lax attitude toward sin?

Butch5
Nov 20th 2008, 02:11 AM
If we appropriate our propitiation by faith, and I agree with you here, then why can't I believe, by faith (as you put it) that my future sins are forgiven? I don't have to ask for forgiveness in the future because I already have faith in the promise that they will be forgiven. Why ask for something I already have?

I suspect that you have something else in mind laying behind your point about future sins. Are you afraid that if you accept that your sins will be forgiven that you will take a lax attitude toward sin?

Not at all, however, you have put your finger on it, when you said, will be forgiven. As long as we remain in Christ they will be forgiven.

What do you assume there is some reason other than Scripture, for my belief? This is not the first time you have asked that.

angel_fire
Nov 20th 2008, 07:21 AM
Wow, my head was spinning after reading for a few hours. Great post!!!

Veretax
Nov 20th 2008, 11:37 AM
Not at all, however, you have put your finger on it, when you said, will be forgiven. As long as we remain in Christ they will be forgiven.

What do you assume there is some reason other than Scripture, for my belief? This is not the first time you have asked that.



Wait, so your saying. Not sure if I'm getting this correctly, but.... That when we put our faith in Christ in our life time all sin in our past is forgiven, but now your saying that if we don't continue in Christ? If we don't remain? That will be taken away? Where is that taught in scripture?

And why would God/Christ tell us he is faithful and just to forgive our sins.. If he's not going to forgive us because we "slipped up"?




Do you not realize that Christ forgave the paralytic sins, even though that's not what he asked for?

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


It doesn't say, only if we remain in him,

Mt 9:2

2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you."

That so marveled the pharisee's that Jesus then said.
Mt 9:6 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mt+9:6&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+9:6&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1)But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."


I just fail to see where this is taught? The passage in 1st John teaches that if we confess he is faithful and just to forgive. It really gives no qualification about something else having to be done to be forgiven, nor should it for that would make our salvation one of works, and it isn't.

My heart's Desire
Nov 20th 2008, 08:01 PM
If we appropriate our propitiation by faith, and I agree with you here, then why can't I believe, by faith (as you put it) that my future sins are forgiven? I don't have to ask for forgiveness in the future because I already have faith in the promise that they will be forgiven. Why ask for something I already have?


Not to forget to mention that we see the verse through our eyes. We know our past sins, yet we don't know our future ones until they happen. Dare we forget that the moment the Lord Jesus saved us, God already knows the sins of the future as if they had already been committed and forgiven for a believer? When we confess our sins, do we really think that God didn't know about the sin until we committed it and confessed it? Is confession not for the continuation of unbroken fellowship? A riff between loved ones can cause a break in fellowship but doesn't break blood relationship.

Butch5
Nov 21st 2008, 12:03 AM
[quote=Veretax;1874496]Wait, so your saying. Not sure if I'm getting this correctly, but.... That when we put our faith in Christ in our life time all sin in our past is forgiven, but now your saying that if we don't continue in Christ? If we don't remain? That will be taken away? Where is that taught in scripture?

quote]


We are not actually saved until the judgment, That is when we will ultimately be declared righteous or unrighteous. When we believe, God counts it as righteousness, we are not righteous, we are declared righteous by God. Now, once we are saved (by faith no works), we are in a relationship with God in Christ. Jesus says if you remain "in me", I will remain in you and the father will remain in you. He then says, if a man does not remain in me, he is cast off. So, once we enter into this relationship, (by grace no works) we are to remain "in Him". To remain "in Him" requires action on our part. Jesus said, he who keeps my commands, it is he who loves me, he who does not keep them does not love me.


John 14:23-24 ( KJV ) 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

So, what are Jesus sayings?

Luke 6:27-38 ( KJV ) 27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Matthew 5:23 ( KJV ) 23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;




37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: 38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.




These are the sayings Jesus told us to keep, if we keep them we love Him, if we don't He says we don't love Him. These are also the same things that Jesus gave as the criteria He will use in the judgment,





Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.




So while we are initially saved by faith without works, Jesus makes it clear that if we are going to be saved at the final judgment we need to do these. It is clear that there are works we must do in order to be saved.




Concerning, 1 John. Notice John is writing this to Christians, if every sin that they will ever commit was forgiven when they were saved, why is John saying, if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.? There would be no need for forgiveness if it was already done.




Also consider Jesus words,




Matthew 18:27-35 ( KJV ) 27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.




forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:




Jesus said if they didn't forgive others then God would not forgive them. And Jesus said this to the disciples, so obviously all sin was not forgiven at salvation. The final judgment will be made at the final judgment.




continued,

Butch5
Nov 21st 2008, 12:04 AM
Concerning Righteousness. If God declares us righteous when we are saved, is it permanent? Are we considered irrevocable justified? No. Consider what God said through Ezekiel,




Ezekiel 3:16-21 ( KJV ) 16And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.




Ezekiel 33:10-20 ( KJV ) 10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. 13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. 17Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. 18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 19But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. 20Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.




This verse is powerful,




13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.




God has declared Him righteous, He calls him a righteous man and says he shall surely live. Is that not declared righteous? Yet God say in the day he trusts in his own righteousness (himself) and commits iniquity, he will die. So clearly, according to God, if He declares a man righteous, it is not permanent. The man must continue in being righteous or he will die.

TravisJ
Nov 21st 2008, 12:10 AM
On Judgement Day, some people will have to find out that God can not stand the presents of sin.... Its like a stench to His nostrils.... who wants to be around someone who smelt like a skunk? No one... And why would God bring you in heaven when you have Sin all over you? He won't... If you were saved, and have sinned and you did not repent from it you are not saved... Paul says he dies daily, he repents daily so he wont have any sin in his life...

Is Judas Iscariot going to heaven? He betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, didn't Jesus say it would be better if he would not have been born... and it said he repented himself.. but did not find godly repentance, like Peter... and why did Jesus say "Go and sin no more"?

The Bible does not contradict itself... if people would accept what it teaches and not try to use God's Word against itself to fit peoples beliefs... it works together and you would see what it means.. but people would look at John 3:16 and say they are saved just reading that one scripture, and not do anything else, and same goes with this once saved always saved...

God's people perish because of the lack of knowledge... It tears me up to see people who believe this false doctrine... Just like how my heart goes out to the lost souls, so does my heart goes out to blinded followers of the false-doctrine...

Butch5
Nov 21st 2008, 12:31 AM
On Judgement Day, some people will have to find out that God can not stand the presents of sin.... Its like a stench to His nostrils.... who wants to be around someone who smelt like a skunk? No one... And why would God bring you in heaven when you have Sin all over you? He won't... If you were saved, and have sinned and you did not repent from it you are not saved... Paul says he dies daily, he repents daily so he wont have any sin in his life...

Is Judas Iscariot going to heaven? He betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, didn't Jesus say it would be better if he would not have been born... and it said he repented himself.. but did not find godly repentance, like Peter... and why did Jesus say "Go and sin no more"?

The Bible does not contradict itself... if people would accept what it teaches and not try to use God's Word against itself to fit peoples beliefs... it works together and you would see what it means.. but people would look at John 3:16 and say they are saved just reading that one scripture, and not do anything else, and same goes with this once saved always saved...

God's people perish because of the lack of knowledge... It tears me up to see people who believe this false doctrine... Just like how my heart goes out to the lost souls, so does my heart goes out to blinded followers of the false-doctrine...

I have to agree with you.

:amen:

TravisJ
Nov 21st 2008, 12:43 AM
It just hurts me to see people who believe this...

BroRog
Nov 21st 2008, 01:03 AM
It just hurts me to see people who believe this...

What are you talking about and why does it hurt?

TravisJ
Nov 21st 2008, 02:57 AM
What are you talking about and why does it hurt?


Why are people so hard at understanding... I am not hurt because of any manner of offense or anything like that... I hurt because people they are lost, and i just begin to think on how the churches are today.. and compare them in the beginning churches.. and how much compromise happened... I may be over people's heads or maybe not i just... agree or disagree, it don't matter. In the book of Proverbs.. God said my people perish because of the lack of knowledge... and they have the lack of knowledge because they are not taught the truth, bits and pieces told here and there... You can't complete a puzzles by just bits and pieces... So how can a Christian grow when he is only fed a small amount?

I'm just gonna stop i'm sorry i just think to much, and I know a lot of people don't understand.. sometimes its those things between you and God.. its hard to explain to others.. but any ways..

God bless you all, and have a hand of protection over all.
In Jesus Name :)

looking4jesus
Nov 21st 2008, 03:04 AM
Why are people so hard at understanding... I am not hurt because of any manner of offense or anything like that... I hurt because people they are lost, and i just begin to think on how the churches are today.. and compare them in the beginning churches.. and how much compromise happened... I may be over people's heads or maybe not i just... agree or disagree, it don't matter. In the book of Proverbs.. God said my people perish because of the lack of knowledge... and they have the lack of knowledge because they are not taught the truth, bits and pieces told here and there... You can't complete a puzzles by just bits and pieces... So how can a Christian grow when he is only fed a small amount?

I'm just gonna stop i'm sorry i just think to much, and I know a lot of people don't understand.. sometimes its those things between you and God.. its hard to explain to others.. but any ways..

God bless you all, and have a hand of protection over all.
In Jesus Name :)

Are you saying you feel hurt because of the OSAS doctrine?
Knowledge is only a part of all this my friend Satan has tons of Knowledge. But I think I know what you mean.
God bless you too
Randy

My heart's Desire
Nov 21st 2008, 06:47 AM
Concerning Righteousness. If God declares us righteous when we are saved, is it permanent? Are we considered irrevocable justified? No. Consider what God said through Ezekiel,




Ezekiel 3:16-21 ( KJV ) 16And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.




Ezekiel 33:10-20 ( KJV ) 10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. 13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. 17Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. 18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 19But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. 20Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.




This verse is powerful,




13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.





God has declared Him righteous, He calls him a righteous man and says he shall surely live. Is that not declared righteous? Yet God say in the day he trusts in his own righteousness (himself) and commits iniquity, he will die. So clearly, according to God, if He declares a man righteous, it is not permanent. The man must continue in being righteous or he will die.


If God declares a man righteous, then you think these verses say that a man's unrighteousness undos God's declaration? Well, lets see how this would work. A man is declared righteous by God, past sins forgiven, the man sins and becomes unrighteous. The man asks forgiveness, doesn't sin that sin again and God declares him righteous again until the man sins another sin, once again the man asks forgiveness, God declares him righteous again and etc etc. So, this verse means either God declares a man righteous over and over again as long as the man maintains that righteousness himself or God declares a man righteous until that man sins, and then he dies lost forever?
If you ask me that pretty well puts the righteousness in mans hand and not God's and if so, why did Christ die for us?
Speaking of that...how sinless and for how long does it take for God to declare one as being righteous? How many sins does it take for God to condemn someone forever?
Romans tells me that it took just one transgression of man to condemn man, but that the gift of God is not like that at all.
Romans tells me that one transgression resulted in condemnation to ALL MEN, but through the one act of righteousness (the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) resulted in justification of life to all men. One man sinned and all became sinners, the ONE man Jesus Christ obeyed and many are made righteous.

My heart's Desire
Nov 21st 2008, 07:38 AM
It is just so black and white to me. Christ has either saved someone or He has not. It seems quite impossible to me that God would save just to lose someone afterwards and for whatever reason man gives he is saying that God is not able on His own to completely save someone Himself all by Himself. That He needs help by making a man maintain his own salvation in one way or the other. As if what God starts He needs man to complete.
Galations 5:4 tells me "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified (declared guiltless) by law; you have fallen from grace (unmerited favor). Are these people who have once known Christ and are now lost because they try to keep the law? No! They were seeking to be justified by the law in the first place and that is the reason they are severed from Him because they had it backwards. They cannot come to Christ as long as they are trying to be justified by the law.
If man could keep the whole law then would he not be considered sinless? But Scripture tells us that man cannot keep the law. So you cannot be declared guiltless or righteous by keeping the law (no sin) after salvation either. And why is that? That is because if it were possible to keep the law, then man would not need the unmerited favor of God through the work of Christ to become righteous!
That is why I believe in OSAS. To me to believe otherwise is to doubt God's ability to totally SAVE!

Veretax
Nov 21st 2008, 01:49 PM
If God declares a man righteous, then you think these verses say that a man's unrighteousness undos God's declaration? Well, lets see how this would work. A man is declared righteous by God, past sins forgiven, the man sins and becomes unrighteous. The man asks forgiveness, doesn't sin that sin again and God declares him righteous again until the man sins another sin, once again the man asks forgiveness, God declares him righteous again and etc etc. So, this verse means either God declares a man righteous over and over again as long as the man maintains that righteousness himself or God declares a man righteous until that man sins, and then he dies lost forever?
If you ask me that pretty well puts the righteousness in mans hand and not God's and if so, why did Christ die for us?
Speaking of that...how sinless and for how long does it take for God to declare one as being righteous? How many sins does it take for God to condemn someone forever?
Romans tells me that it took just one transgression of man to condemn man, but that the gift of God is not like that at all.
Romans tells me that one transgression resulted in condemnation to ALL MEN, but through the one act of righteousness (the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) resulted in justification of life to all men. One man sinned and all became sinners, the ONE man Jesus Christ obeyed and many are made righteous.

Bingo I love this passage in John 10:


John 10:22-38 22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one." 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
I will take this one steps further. Christ says that we should do the things he did right? Christ here says. 7 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

If a person claims to be Christian, to know the path, but he doesn't do the things of God. Christ himself said do not believe him. Therefore Works are going to happen if you are saved, they are a testimony of what Christ has wrought within us.


I'm going to exit this conversation now. My HDD on my notebook at home died last night and it may be sometime till I can replace the machine. It was fun while it lasted though.


God Bless

Tim

BroRog
Nov 21st 2008, 02:38 PM
Why are people so hard at understanding... I am not hurt because of any manner of offense or anything like that... I hurt because people they are lost, and i just begin to think on how the churches are today.. and compare them in the beginning churches.. and how much compromise happened... I may be over people's heads or maybe not i just... agree or disagree, it don't matter. In the book of Proverbs.. God said my people perish because of the lack of knowledge... and they have the lack of knowledge because they are not taught the truth, bits and pieces told here and there... You can't complete a puzzles by just bits and pieces... So how can a Christian grow when he is only fed a small amount?

I'm just gonna stop i'm sorry i just think to much, and I know a lot of people don't understand.. sometimes its those things between you and God.. its hard to explain to others.. but any ways..

God bless you all, and have a hand of protection over all.
In Jesus Name :)

Travis, I don't think you are alone in grieving for the church. It's natural for those who love Christ to love what Christ loves and be concerned. Don't be embarrassed to think this way. Many others are praying for the church too. But don't lose hope either because the Holy Spirit also makes intercession for those in Christ.

Butch5
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:41 AM
My Heart---If God declares a man righteous, then you think these verses say that a man's unrighteousness undos God's declaration? Well, lets see how this would work. A man is declared righteous by God, past sins forgiven, the man sins and becomes unrighteous. The man asks forgiveness, doesn't sin that sin again and God declares him righteous again until the man sins another sin, once again the man asks forgiveness, God declares him righteous again and etc etc. So, this verse means either God declares a man righteous over and over again as long as the man maintains that righteousness himself or God declares a man righteous until that man sins, and then he dies lost forever?
If you ask me that pretty well puts the righteousness in mans hand and not God's and if so, why did Christ die for us?
Speaking of that...how sinless and for how long does it take for God to declare one as being righteous? How many sins does it take for God to condemn someone forever?
Romans tells me that it took just one transgression of man to condemn man, but that the gift of God is not like that at all.
Romans tells me that one transgression resulted in condemnation to ALL MEN, but through the one act of righteousness (the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) resulted in justification of life to all men. One man sinned and all became sinners, the ONE man Jesus Christ obeyed and many are made righteous.

You have to understand that being declared justified, means that God has counted an act as ,righteous. The Bible says there is none righteous, we are never righteous, we only get declared or counted righteous. The Scripture clearly says that a man can turn from his righteousness. Now, I have nowhere mentioned sins, so I don't know where you got the idea that I inferred that a person was declared righteous and then sinned and was declared unrighteous. It says when a man "turns" from his righteousness, when he stops living a righteous life, not when he commits a sin. Abraham was counted righteous, he sinned, God did 't say today you are righteous, but yesterday you were not, but the day before. No, Abraham sinned, but he walked with God and lived a righteous life, that is why he was declared righteous.


My Heart---If you ask me that pretty well puts the righteousness in mans hand and not God's and if so, why did Christ die for us?

That's what He said, if a righteous man turns from "his" righteousness, "his" righteousness will not save him in the day that he commits iniquity. Christ died for us because none of us are righteous.


My Heart---Speaking of that...how sinless and for how long does it take for God to declare one as being righteous? How many sins does it take for God to condemn someone forever?

This argument is fallacious, as I said it is not about how many sins, it is a matter of turning.

Butch5
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:56 AM
It is just so black and white to me. Christ has either saved someone or He has not. It seems quite impossible to me that God would save just to lose someone afterwards and for whatever reason man gives he is saying that God is not able on His own to completely save someone Himself all by Himself. That He needs help by making a man maintain his own salvation in one way or the other. As if what God starts He needs man to complete.
Galations 5:4 tells me "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified (declared guiltless) by law; you have fallen from grace (unmerited favor). Are these people who have once known Christ and are now lost because they try to keep the law? No! They were seeking to be justified by the law in the first place and that is the reason they are severed from Him because they had it backwards. They cannot come to Christ as long as they are trying to be justified by the law.
If man could keep the whole law then would he not be considered sinless? But Scripture tells us that man cannot keep the law. So you cannot be declared guiltless or righteous by keeping the law (no sin) after salvation either. And why is that? That is because if it were possible to keep the law, then man would not need the unmerited favor of God through the work of Christ to become righteous!
That is why I believe in OSAS. To me to believe otherwise is to doubt God's ability to totally SAVE!


My Heart---It is just so black and white to me. Christ has either saved someone or He has not. It seems quite impossible to me that God would save just to lose someone afterwards and for whatever reason man gives he is saying that God is not able on His own to completely save someone Himself all by Himself. That He needs help by making a man maintain his own salvation in one way or the other. As if what God starts He needs man to complete.

No one is actually saved until the judgment, When we say we are saved, we mean we have been placed in a relationship with Christ. Nothing in my statement implies that God is not able, the question is, is man willing? God needs no help to save anyone, however He has told us what criteria He is going to use when He saves us.


My Heart---Galatians 5:4 tells me "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified (declared guiltless) by law; you have fallen from grace (unmerited favor). Are these people who have once known Christ and are now lost because they try to keep the law? No! They were seeking to be justified by the law in the first place and that is the reason they are severed from Him because they had it backwards. They cannot come to Christ as long as they are trying to be justified by the law.

You have contradicted yourself here. How can they be severed if they were never attached to Christ? These were believers, and Paul is telling them that if the y seek to be justified by the law, Christ will not profit them. But what does this have to do with good works? I never said a person had to keep the law, I said a person had to do good works.


My Heart---If man could keep the whole law then would he not be considered sinless? But Scripture tells us that man cannot keep the law. So you cannot be declared guiltless or righteous by keeping the law (no sin) after salvation either. And why is that? That is because if it were possible to keep the law, then man would not need the unmerited favor of God through the work of Christ to become righteous!

Even if man could keep the law perfectly, he still would need God's grace to be saved, because mankind was under the power of darkness and needed to be ransomed from the power of darkness.

My heart's Desire
Nov 22nd 2008, 05:44 AM
No one is actually saved until the judgment, Right. My Sin was judged at the Cross and when I believed I was saved so therefore I was saved at the judgment and am no longer under condemnation. Therefore, only those who are lost are found at the judgment seat of Christ. Christians are rewarded or have lack of rewards for their good works at the Bema Seat, and doesn't involve their salvation at all.

My heart's Desire
Nov 22nd 2008, 06:26 AM
The Scripture clearly says that a man can turn from his righteousness. Now, I have nowhere mentioned sins, so I don't know where you got the idea that I inferred that a person was declared righteous and then sinned and was declared unrighteous. It says when a man "turns" from his righteousness, when he stops living a righteous life,
But are you not? When a man turns from his righteousness does that NOT involve sin? If he stops living a righteous life does he live a life of sin? The whole passage of Ezekiel that is referred to involves sin and righteousness.
See, that's the whole thing. When one believes in Christ, He declares Sinners as being righteous. He doesn't say become righteous so that God can declare one as being such.
If I remember correctly, you were trying to use the passage in Ezekiel as proof that if one turns from his righteousness by sinning that he loses his salvation.

Firstfruits
Nov 22nd 2008, 07:21 PM
You have to understand that being declared justified, means that God has counted an act as ,righteous. The Bible says there is none righteous, we are never righteous, we only get declared or counted righteous. The Scripture clearly says that a man can turn from his righteousness. Now, I have nowhere mentioned sins, so I don't know where you got the idea that I inferred that a person was declared righteous and then sinned and was declared unrighteous. It says when a man "turns" from his righteousness, when he stops living a righteous life, not when he commits a sin. Abraham was counted righteous, he sinned, God did 't say today you are righteous, but yesterday you were not, but the day before. No, Abraham sinned, but he walked with God and lived a righteous life, that is why he was declared righteous.



That's what He said, if a righteous man turns from "his" righteousness, "his" righteousness will not save him in the day that he commits iniquity. Christ died for us because none of us are righteous.



This argument is fallacious, as I said it is not about how many sins, it is a matter of turning.

What is your understanding of the following?

Righteousness,

Unrighteousness,

Sin,

Thanks,

Firstfruits

Butch5
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:16 AM
But are you not? When a man turns from his righteousness does that NOT involve sin? If he stops living a righteous life does he live a life of sin? The whole passage of Ezekiel that is referred to involves sin and righteousness.
See, that's the whole thing. When one believes in Christ, He declares Sinners as being righteous. He doesn't say become righteous so that God can declare one as being such.
If I remember correctly, you were trying to use the passage in Ezekiel as proof that if one turns from his righteousness by sinning that he loses his salvation.

Turning from righteousness is not accomplished with just one sin. It is a the way you live. If a man turns from living a righteous life to living an unrighteous life then yes he will be lost. God clearly say that. No one is righteous, however when a man lives as God commands, God will consider him righteous.

Butch5
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:19 AM
What is your understanding of the following?

Righteousness,

Unrighteousness,

Sin,

Thanks,

Firstfruits

Live as God commands.

A declaration.

A declaration.

Not living as God commands.

Butch5
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:26 AM
Right. My Sin was judged at the Cross and when I believed I was saved so therefore I was saved at the judgment and am no longer under condemnation. Therefore, only those who are lost are found at the judgment seat of Christ. Christians are rewarded or have lack of rewards for their good works at the Bema Seat, and doesn't involve their salvation at all.

Where does Scripture say your sin was judged at the cross?

Christians are only going to receive rewards???

Is eternal life one of the rewards? Jesus gives us the criteria that He will use at the judgment,

Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

sheina maidle
Nov 23rd 2008, 05:26 AM
Where does Scripture say your sin was judged at the cross?

Christians are only going to receive rewards???

Is eternal life one of the rewards? Jesus gives us the criteria that He will use at the judgment,

Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:31-46 is the Judgment of the Nations....it has nothing to do with salvation during the dispensation of grace.

My heart's Desire
Nov 23rd 2008, 05:44 AM
Turning from righteousness is not accomplished with just one sin. It is a the way you live. If a man turns from living a righteous life to living an unrighteous life then yes he will be lost. God clearly say that. No one is righteous, however when a man lives as God commands, God will consider him righteous.
So the way one lives decides if they will be saved or not? Then why did Christ die if we could live righteously?
But there is none who are good or righteous. Those who are saved have Christ righteousness not their own.
God commands man to Believe in His Son Who died for their sins.

I'm not trying to be argumentive but I'm trying to see the difference between your point of view and the view or views that says for example the rest of your life:
You must keep the law to be saved, or
You must be sinless to be saved, or
You must live a certain way to be saved, or
You must confess and turn from every sin to be saved, or
You must do good works to be saved. etc.
Your view sounds similiar to many of these views to which I would disagree on.
My view simply sees that ONCE Christ saves you in this lifetime, you are saved forever for believing His Word and His Work is what saves.

Butch5
Nov 23rd 2008, 06:02 AM
Matthew 25:31-46 is the Judgment of the Nations....it has nothing to do with salvation during the dispensation of grace.

Oh, so countries are going to be cast into the lake of fire? Which Countries do you suppose will be judged righteous? How do countries get eternal life?

No, this is individuals, the word translated nations is ethnos and also means people. This is the criteria that Jesus will use to judge His people.

Butch5
Nov 23rd 2008, 06:36 AM
So the way one lives decides if they will be saved or not? Then why did Christ die if we could live righteously?
But there is none who are good or righteous. Those who are saved have Christ righteousness not their own.
God commands man to Believe in His Son Who died for their sins.

I'm not trying to be argumentive but I'm trying to see the difference between your point of view and the view or views that says for example the rest of your life:
You must keep the law to be saved, or
You must be sinless to be saved, or
You must live a certain way to be saved, or
You must confess and turn from every sin to be saved, or
You must do good works to be saved. etc.
Your view sounds similiar to many of these views to which I would disagree on.
My view simply sees that ONCE Christ saves you in this lifetime, you are saved forever for believing His Word and His Work is what saves.


The problem is that most of the church today teaches that once you are saved that is it, it's a done deal. However, this ignores a lot of Scripture. Most people run to Ephesians 2:8-9 or Romans 4. However, they ignore other Scriptures that should be added to this. Paul is the one who expounds on being saved by faith, so if Paul says we are saved by faith then we can believe that he knows what it means to be saved by faith. Paul said we are saved by faith, not of works lest any man should boast. Paul also said,

Romans 2:3-9 ( KJV ) 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

So, Paul makes it clear that God judges everyone according to their works. Notice He says that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life. This is the same guy who said we are not saved by works. So obviously good works are not the works Paul references in Ephesians. That leaves the works of the Law. We no that no flesh is saved by the works of the Law, Paul states this many times. If you read on in Ephesians 2 Paul speaks of Christ abolishing the Law.

Consider what else Paul says,


Romans 16:25-27 ( KJV ) 25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Notice that Paul says according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ. So we have to look at the preaching of Jesus Christ, When we do we see Jesus saying,

John 14:23-24 ( KJV ) 23Jesus answered and said unto him,If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Fathers which sent me.


John 15:4-6 ( KJV ) 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luke 6:27-31 ( KJV ) 27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also. 30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

Luke 6:35-36 ( KJV ) 35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Luke 6:37-38 ( KJV ) 37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: 38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

So we see that Jesus does give us commands, and as I have shown these things are what He is going to judge us on, as He says in Matthew 25.

Concerning righteousness, I don't see where Christ's righteousness is transferred to us, I think that idea is wrong, notice what Jesus says,

Matthew 5:20 ( KJV ) 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

He says unless "YOUR" righteousness exceeds that of hte Pharisee's. He doesn't say unless you have my righteousness.

Firstfruits
Nov 23rd 2008, 08:26 PM
Live as God commands.

A declaration.

A declaration.

Not living as God commands.

Thanks Butch5,

With regards to the following scripture how many transgressions did Adam commit to cause us to be separated from God?

Rom 5:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Thank you,

Firstfruits

My heart's Desire
Nov 23rd 2008, 09:28 PM
The problem is that most of the church today teaches that once you are saved that is it, it's a done deal. However, this ignores a lot of Scripture. Most people run to Ephesians 2:8-.Well, it is true. Once one is saved they really are. Still, please tell me your view of what saves and keeps one saved until death? I got the scriptures you give, but tell me what you believe keeps one saved until death? Requirements?

My heart's Desire
Nov 23rd 2008, 10:37 PM
Where does Scripture say your sin was judged at the cross?

. Here in Hebrews are some. Heb. 10:5 Therefore when He comes into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;
6. In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure.
7.Then I said, "Behold, I have come (in the scroll of the Book it is written of Me) to do Your will, O God.'"
9. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

12. But He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time , sat down at the right Hand of God,

14. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

16.
17. "And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."


--------------------
1 Corinthains 6: 9,11

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators...........
11. Such WERE some of you; but you WERE washed, but you WERE sanctified, but you WERE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
12. All things are lawful for me but not all things are profitable.

angel_fire
Nov 23rd 2008, 11:05 PM
Yes, Love covers over a multitude of sin or sins. Love rules all, over all. Great example of this, what Christ is trying to say to the legal maniacs. Listen all who think they live a sin free life and who think that by sinning you somehow loose your salvation. '

Jesus Anointed by a SINFUL WOMEN. LUKE 8:36-50

1 1 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot1) 2 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot2) When he had finished all his words to the people, he entered Capernaum. 2 A centurion 3 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot3) there had a slave who was ill and about to die, and he was valuable to him. 3 When he heard about Jesus, he sent elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and save the life of his slave. 4 They approached Jesus and strongly urged him to come, saying, "He deserves to have you do this for him, 5 for he loves our nation and he built the synagogue for us." 6 And Jesus went with them, but when he was only a short distance from the house, the centurion sent friends to tell him, "Lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof. 4 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot4) 7 Therefore, I did not consider myself worthy to come to you; but say the word and let my servant be healed. 8 For I too am a person subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to another, 'Come here,' and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it." 9 When Jesus heard this he was amazed at him and, turning, said to the crowd following him, "I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith." 10 When the messengers returned to the house, they found the slave in good health. 11 5 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot5) Soon afterward he journeyed to a city called Nain, and his disciples and a large crowd accompanied him. 12 As he drew near to the gate of the city, a man who had died was being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow. A large crowd from the city was with her. 13 When the Lord saw her, he was moved with pity for her and said to her, "Do not weep." 14 He stepped forward and touched the coffin; at this the bearers halted, and he said, "Young man, I tell you, arise!" 15 The dead man sat up and began to speak, and Jesus gave him to his mother. 16 Fear seized them all, and they glorified God, exclaiming, "A great prophet has arisen in our midst," and "God has visited his people." 17 This report about him spread through the whole of Judea and in all the surrounding region. 18 6 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot6) The disciples of John told him about all these things. John summoned two of his disciples 19 and sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who is to come, or should we look for another?" 20 When the men came to him, they said, "John the Baptist has sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who is to come, or should we look for another?'" 21 At that time he cured many of their diseases, sufferings, and evil spirits; he also granted sight to many who were blind. 22 And he said to them in reply, "Go and tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind regain their sight, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the good news proclaimed to them. 23 And blessed is the one who takes no offense at me." 7 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot7) 24 8 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot8) When the messengers of John had left, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John. "What did you go out to the desert to see--a reed swayed by the wind? 25 Then what did you go out to see? Someone dressed in fine garments? Those who dress luxuriously and live sumptuously are found in royal palaces. 26 Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27 This is the one about whom scripture says: 'Behold, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, he will prepare your way before you.' 28 I tell you, among those born of women, no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." 29 (All the people who listened, including the tax collectors, and who were baptized with the baptism of John, acknowledged the righteousness of God; 30 but the Pharisees and scholars of the law, who were not baptized by him, rejected the plan of God for themselves.) 31 9 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot9) "Then to what shall I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? 32 They are like children who sit in the marketplace and call to one another, 'We played the flute for you, but you did not dance. We sang a dirge, but you did not weep.' 33 For John the Baptist came neither eating food nor drinking wine, and you said, 'He is possessed by a demon.' 34 The Son of Man came eating and drinking and you said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' 35 But wisdom is vindicated by all her children." 36 10 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot10) 11 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot11) A Pharisee invited him to dine with him, and he entered the Pharisee's house and reclined at table. 37 Now there was a sinful woman in the city who learned that he was at table in the house of the Pharisee. Bringing an alabaster flask of ointment, 38 she stood behind him at his feet weeping and began to bathe his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them, and anointed them with the ointment. 39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, that she is a sinner." 40 Jesus said to him in reply, "Simon, I have something to say to you." "Tell me, teacher," he said. 41 "Two people were in debt to a certain creditor; one owed five hundred days' wages 12 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot12) and the other owed fifty. 42 Since they were unable to repay the debt, he forgave it for both. Which of them will love him more?" 43 Simon said in reply, "The one, I suppose, whose larger debt was forgiven." He said to him, "You have judged rightly." 44 Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give me water for my feet, but she has bathed them with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You did not give me a kiss, but she has not ceased kissing my feet since the time I entered. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she anointed my feet with ointment. 47 So I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven; hence, she has shown great love. 13 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot13) But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little." 48 He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." 49 The others at table said to themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50 But he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."


We dont add nor do we subtract, Jesus did not tell this women "Sin No More", No he said your Faith has saved you.

My heart's Desire
Nov 23rd 2008, 11:31 PM
Christians are only going to receive rewards???

Is eternal life one of the rewards?
1 Corinthians 3:13,14 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15.If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


Titus 2:5 He saved us, Not on the basis of deeds WHICH WE HAVE DONE IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, but according to HIS MERCY, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior


Let's see. According to Titus, Christ saved us but that had nothing to do with deeds done in righteousness by us. If our righteousness doesn't save us to begin with then how can it keep us saved?

And at the reward ceremony if you will, the man is still saved even if his work is burned up.

WritingRose
Nov 23rd 2008, 11:49 PM
Any sin no matter how little is more than enough to keep you out of heaven abd doomed to hell. That is why Jesus came .Salvation is never by works it cannot be so. If you can loose it you never had it to begin with. Jesu dies once and for all for our sins not again and again. Your are born again once and forever. Now you can make a big messed out of your life and God can even take you out of the world and cut your life short but you will stil be saved. The Holy Spirit stays inside you always you can deny him but he will never deny you.

Satans lie is to accused the saved that be careful lest you loose your salvation. this makes a mock of God and brings down what Jesus did on the croos to a effect not of Grace but by works of msn.
God Bless

I agree with everything you've said here, except that I don't believe a saved person would deny the Holy Spirit, or the Father or the Son. I truly don't believe that they would truly deny them in their heart. Maybe once, out of panic like Peter did. But not truly, truly deny the Lord.

~Rose

Butch5
Nov 23rd 2008, 11:58 PM
Thanks Butch5,

With regards to the following scripture how many transgressions did Adam commit to cause us to be separated from God?

Rom 5:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Thank you,

Firstfruits


One. However, Adam didn't live in a sinful world and was not under the covenant of grace.

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 12:00 AM
Well, it is true. Once one is saved they really are. Still, please tell me your view of what saves and keeps one saved until death? I got the scriptures you give, but tell me what you believe keeps one saved until death? Requirements?

Abiding in Christ, to follow Him until death. To keep His commands as He said.

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 12:01 AM
Here in Hebrews are some. Heb. 10:5 Therefore when He comes into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;
6. In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure.
7.Then I said, "Behold, I have come (in the scroll of the Book it is written of Me) to do Your will, O God.'"
9. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

12. But He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time , sat down at the right Hand of God,

14. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

16.
17. "And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."


--------------------
1 Corinthains 6: 9,11

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators...........
11. Such WERE some of you; but you WERE washed, but you WERE sanctified, but you WERE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
12. All things are lawful for me but not all things are profitable.


Sin was judged at the cross, however were our indidviual sins reconciled at the cross?

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 12:08 AM
Yes, Love covers over a multitude of sin or sins. Love rules all, over all. Great example of this, what Christ is trying to say to the legal maniacs. Listen all who think they live a sin free life and who think that by sinning you somehow loose your salvation. '

Jesus Anointed by a SINFUL WOMEN. LUKE 8:36-50

1 1 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot1) 2 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot2) When he had finished all his words to the people, he entered Capernaum. 2 A centurion 3 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot3) there had a slave who was ill and about to die, and he was valuable to him. 3 When he heard about Jesus, he sent elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and save the life of his slave. 4 They approached Jesus and strongly urged him to come, saying, "He deserves to have you do this for him, 5 for he loves our nation and he built the synagogue for us." 6 And Jesus went with them, but when he was only a short distance from the house, the centurion sent friends to tell him, "Lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof. 4 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot4) 7 Therefore, I did not consider myself worthy to come to you; but say the word and let my servant be healed. 8 For I too am a person subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to another, 'Come here,' and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it." 9 When Jesus heard this he was amazed at him and, turning, said to the crowd following him, "I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith." 10 When the messengers returned to the house, they found the slave in good health. 11 5 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot5) Soon afterward he journeyed to a city called Nain, and his disciples and a large crowd accompanied him. 12 As he drew near to the gate of the city, a man who had died was being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow. A large crowd from the city was with her. 13 When the Lord saw her, he was moved with pity for her and said to her, "Do not weep." 14 He stepped forward and touched the coffin; at this the bearers halted, and he said, "Young man, I tell you, arise!" 15 The dead man sat up and began to speak, and Jesus gave him to his mother. 16 Fear seized them all, and they glorified God, exclaiming, "A great prophet has arisen in our midst," and "God has visited his people." 17 This report about him spread through the whole of Judea and in all the surrounding region. 18 6 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot6) The disciples of John told him about all these things. John summoned two of his disciples 19 and sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who is to come, or should we look for another?" 20 When the men came to him, they said, "John the Baptist has sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who is to come, or should we look for another?'" 21 At that time he cured many of their diseases, sufferings, and evil spirits; he also granted sight to many who were blind. 22 And he said to them in reply, "Go and tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind regain their sight, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the good news proclaimed to them. 23 And blessed is the one who takes no offense at me." 7 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot7) 24 8 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot8) When the messengers of John had left, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John. "What did you go out to the desert to see--a reed swayed by the wind? 25 Then what did you go out to see? Someone dressed in fine garments? Those who dress luxuriously and live sumptuously are found in royal palaces. 26 Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27 This is the one about whom scripture says: 'Behold, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, he will prepare your way before you.' 28 I tell you, among those born of women, no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." 29 (All the people who listened, including the tax collectors, and who were baptized with the baptism of John, acknowledged the righteousness of God; 30 but the Pharisees and scholars of the law, who were not baptized by him, rejected the plan of God for themselves.) 31 9 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot9) "Then to what shall I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? 32 They are like children who sit in the marketplace and call to one another, 'We played the flute for you, but you did not dance. We sang a dirge, but you did not weep.' 33 For John the Baptist came neither eating food nor drinking wine, and you said, 'He is possessed by a demon.' 34 The Son of Man came eating and drinking and you said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' 35 But wisdom is vindicated by all her children." 36 10 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot10) 11 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot11) A Pharisee invited him to dine with him, and he entered the Pharisee's house and reclined at table. 37 Now there was a sinful woman in the city who learned that he was at table in the house of the Pharisee. Bringing an alabaster flask of ointment, 38 she stood behind him at his feet weeping and began to bathe his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them, and anointed them with the ointment. 39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, that she is a sinner." 40 Jesus said to him in reply, "Simon, I have something to say to you." "Tell me, teacher," he said. 41 "Two people were in debt to a certain creditor; one owed five hundred days' wages 12 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot12) and the other owed fifty. 42 Since they were unable to repay the debt, he forgave it for both. Which of them will love him more?" 43 Simon said in reply, "The one, I suppose, whose larger debt was forgiven." He said to him, "You have judged rightly." 44 Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give me water for my feet, but she has bathed them with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You did not give me a kiss, but she has not ceased kissing my feet since the time I entered. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she anointed my feet with ointment. 47 So I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven; hence, she has shown great love. 13 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke7.htm#foot13) But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little." 48 He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." 49 The others at table said to themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50 But he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."


We dont add nor do we subtract, Jesus did not tell this women "Sin No More", No he said your Faith has saved you.

Actually Jesus did tell people to go and sin no more. However, if a person cannot lose their salvation, would you please explain why Jesus told John, Peter, Matthew, and the rest of the discipels to be careful that thye do not end up in hell?


Mark 9:43-50 ( KJV ) 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Jesus said this to His disciples, why?

paidforinfull
Nov 24th 2008, 12:13 AM
The Scriptures state:
Ro 8:39 - neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now, I believe this 'anything else in all creation' includes myself. Even I, myself, cannot remove me from the Lord's Hand - He simply won't allow it.

I really do believe that a reborn Christian can backslide, but he/she cannot turn their backs on God. God will always bring them back into a right relationship with Himself. Somebody who truly falls away from God, was never really saved in the first place.

And how to remain saved - eternally? Become saved - truly saved. One needs to accept Jesus Christ as Redeemer and Lord of your life. After you have done this, your whole life will be committed to Him, and you will desire to do His will, and be obedient to Him. The Holy Spirit will work in you to achieve this. Of course, you have to work with God, but you will really and truly desire it so.

This doesn't mean that you will become perfect overnight. Salavation is instantaneous, but sanctification takes a lifetime (excuse the cliche, but it happens to be true). It does mean, though, that you will become more and more like Jesus.

God bless.

paidforinfull
Nov 24th 2008, 12:19 AM
[QUOTE=Butch5;1879012]Actually Jesus did tell people to go and sin no more. However, if a person cannot lose their salvation, would you please explain why Jesus told John, Peter, Matthew, and the rest of the discipels to be careful that thye do not end up in hell?
QUOTE]

Hi Butch - Jesus told the disciples this because He had not yet died for their sins, and they would not have been redeemed by His Blood (at that stage), if they should fall into sin. (This actually did happen to Judas who sinned and died unredeemed.)

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 12:20 AM
My heart's Desire---1 Corinthians 3:13,14 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15.If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


Titus 2:5 He saved us, Not on the basis of deeds WHICH WE HAVE DONE IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, but according to HIS MERCY, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior

Hi My Heart,

The verses in 1 corinthians are speaking of teachers in the church, how they build up the church will determine their rewards.

The verse in Titus says that we were not saved by our works of righteousness, which is correct. Notice Paul says God saved us, past tense, when we came to Christ we were saved by grace without works, [initial salvation]. However Jesus speaks not of the time when we were saved (the time when we were placed in relationship with Him.)[Initial salvation], but of the future when we will be saved. This is our actual salvation, when Christ raises us from the dead, it is at this point that we will be judged, according to what we have done. It is between our initial salvation (grace, no works) and our ultimate salvation (at the judgment) That we must do these good works. Jesus clearly said He who endures to the end shall be saved. Once we are int the relationship, it is then that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

My heart's Desire
Nov 24th 2008, 12:48 AM
Sin was judged at the cross, however were our indidviual sins reconciled at the cross?
Of Course they were! What does the sins of the world mean? All Sins But does that mean that all the world is saved? No. Only those who believe it have their individual sins reconciled in Christ. We are going in circles now.

Either people believe they are saved and forgiven unto eternal life forever or people believe they have to merit their salvation either before or after in one way or the other.

My heart's Desire
Nov 24th 2008, 12:54 AM
Hi My Heart,

The verses in 1 corinthians are speaking of teachers in the church, how they build up the church will determine their rewards.

The verse in Titus says that we were not saved by our works of righteousness, which is correct. Notice Paul says God saved us, past tense, when we came to Christ we were saved by grace without works, [initial salvation]. However Jesus speaks not of the time when we were saved (the time when we were placed in relationship with Him.)[Initial salvation], but of the future when we will be saved. This is our actual salvation, when Christ raises us from the dead, it is at this point that we will be judged, according to what we have done. It is between our initial salvation (grace, no works) and our ultimate salvation (at the judgment) That we must do these good works. Jesus clearly said He who endures to the end shall be saved. Once we are int the relationship, it is then that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Some of what you give is true, but yet beyond the second that God saves us because of Jesus Christ and makes us a new creation, what works will keep us in His family and saved until the end?
It says nothing about it being only for teachers in the church. It does describe soul winners and we all should be. Jesus Christ is our foundation and we built upon that foundation with work which is rewarded.

Ok, once again I ask. As a saved son or daughter of God, which good works and how many do we have to do to merit eternal life? Or going the other way, how far away from God does His child have to turn away in order to be kicked out of God's family by God? I would think that people would want this information in order to work out their salvation if they intend to be saved after death.

My heart's Desire
Nov 24th 2008, 01:35 AM
Hi My Heart,

Notice Paul says God saved us, past tense, when we came to Christ we were saved by grace without works, [initial salvation]. However Jesus speaks not of the time when we were saved (the time when we were placed in relationship with Him.)[Initial salvation], but of the future when we will be saved. This is our actual salvation, when Christ raises us from the dead, it is at this point that we will be judged, according to what we have done. It is between our initial salvation (grace, no works) and our ultimate salvation
Just to clarify, what you say above I have no disagreement with except that the judgment for rewards is called the Bema seat. It is not the Great white Throne at the end.
It will only be judgment of our works but not our salvation and only believers will be before that Bema seat.
I believe one is saved, being saved and will be saved also. It is God's work. 1 Corth. 1:7-8
So that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8. who WILL also CONFIRM you to the END, BLAMELESS in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 02:08 AM
Just to clarify, what you say above I have no disagreement with except that the judgment for rewards is called the Bema seat. It is not the Great white Throne at the end.
It will only be judgment of our works but not our salvation and only believers will be before that Bema seat.
I believe one is saved, being saved and will be saved also. It is God's work. 1 Corth. 1:7-8
So that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8. who WILL also CONFIRM you to the END, BLAMELESS in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus makes is clear that the judgement in Matthew 25 is for eternal life and He says it is according to what we have done. if you want to call eternal life a reward, if guess you can but it is clearly based on what we have done.

The verses that you quoted from 1 Corinthians are true, however they only pertain to those who believe. They do not reference a person who believes then leaves the faith.

My heart's Desire
Nov 24th 2008, 02:12 AM
They do not reference a person who believes then leaves the faith.
A person who is born again cannot become unborn.

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 02:17 AM
Some of what you give is true, but yet beyond the second that God saves us because of Jesus Christ and makes us a new creation, what works will keep us in His family and saved until the end?
It says nothing about it being only for teachers in the church. It does describe soul winners and we all should be. Jesus Christ is our foundation and we built upon that foundation with work which is rewarded.

Ok, once again I ask. As a saved son or daughter of God, which good works and how many do we have to do to merit eternal life? Or going the other way, how far away from God does His child have to turn away in order to be kicked out of God's family by God? I would think that people would want this information in order to work out their salvation if they intend to be saved after death.

The works are those that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 25.

Corinthians is speaking of teachers, Paul is speaking of the building of the church at Corinth. He says he laid the foundation and Apollos built on it. Then he says if any man builds on this foundation his works will be tested by fire.

Regarding how many works, there is not a number. However consider the parable of the talents, one man was given 5, one man 2 and another 1. When the master came back the first man gave the original 5 and 5 more and was praised, the second man gave his 2 and 2 more and he likewise was praised. The third man had buried his and returned only the original talent, and the master called him a wicked servant and he was cast into utter darkness and where there is gnashing of teeth. The two who returned talents were equally praised, it was the one who did nothing that was condemned.

So, it all depends on what you are given by God, He will determine how much.

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 02:22 AM
Of Course they were! What does the sins of the world mean? All Sins But does that mean that all the world is saved? No. Only those who believe it have their individual sins reconciled in Christ. We are going in circles now.

Either people believe they are saved and forgiven unto eternal life forever or people believe they have to merit their salvation either before or after in one way or the other.

The propitiation for you sins was made at the cross. If your sins were reconciled why does Peter say repent and be baptised for the remission of sins. The method was procured at the cross, however, the application is procured through baptism.

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 02:23 AM
A person who is born again cannot become unborn.

There is no need to be unborn, one only need reject Christ.

My heart's Desire
Nov 24th 2008, 02:25 AM
Jesus makes is clear that the judgement in Matthew 25 is for eternal life and He says it is according to what we have done. .Exactly. Except that this judgment is judgment of different people than the Church. These are those who have lived thru the Tribulation period and are now before King Jesus being judged for the way they treated His brethren the Jews, during the trib. Those being judged are from all the nations. Nations in the Bible usually always means "Gentiles". The sheep will then enter the millenial kingdom,

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 02:29 AM
Exactly. Except that this judgment is judgment of different people than the Church. These are those who have lived thru the Tribulation period and are now before King Jesus being judged for the way they treated His brethren the Jews, during the trib. Those being judged are from all the nations. Nations in the Bible usually always means "Gentiles". The sheep will then enter the millenial kingdom,

The word ethnos is also tranlated people.

Please show me from Scripture where the judgment in Matthew 25 is those of the tribulation.

My heart's Desire
Nov 24th 2008, 02:37 AM
There is no need to be unborn, one only need reject Christ.
Ok, so if you only have to reject Christ to be lost, then why do you have to be reborn to be saved? If it only had to do with acceptance or rejection by man then why does Christ say you must be born again in order to be saved and if He does say that and He does then it follows to reject Christ you have to become unborn, which would basicly mean that you are undoing everything Christ did for you, to you and on your behalf.

My heart's Desire
Nov 24th 2008, 02:49 AM
The word ethnos is also tranlated people.

Please show me from Scripture where the judgment in Matthew 25 is those of the tribulation.
Matt. 25:31 says this judgment is when He comes in His glory, and when He sits on His throne. All nations are gathered before Him so these people must be alive at the time.
Verse 34 says the sheep are told to inherit the kingdom that is prepared for you. They will go into the 1000 yr kingdom when Christ reigns on earth.
There are No books opened to judge their deeds as they are at the time of the white throne in Rev. 20:11. Only the dead will be there at the throne judgment.
I'm pre trib so I'd be arguing from that POV and that would lead us away from the Once saved always saved post made in the beginning.
If we stick to our beginning subject (OP)then we will more clearly bring out the work of Christ on our behalf in salvation issues which is always a profitable discussion.
Suffice to say that I do not believe Matt 25 is describing those saved in this present Church Age.

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 04:46 AM
Matt. 25:31 says this judgment is when He comes in His glory, and when He sits on His throne. All nations are gathered before Him so these people must be alive at the time.
Verse 34 says the sheep are told to inherit the kingdom that is prepared for you. They will go into the 1000 yr kingdom when Christ reigns on earth.
There are No books opened to judge their deeds as they are at the time of the white throne in Rev. 20:11. Only the dead will be there at the throne judgment.
I'm pre trib so I'd be arguing from that POV and that would lead us away from the Once saved always saved post made in the beginning.
If we stick to our beginning subject (OP)then we will more clearly bring out the work of Christ on our behalf in salvation issues which is always a profitable discussion.
Suffice to say that I do not believe Matt 25 is describing those saved in this present Church Age.


Ok, why must these people be alive at the time of this judgment?

Just because Jesus does not mention any books does not mean it cannot be the same judgment.

I would be arguing this from a post trib position.

My heart's Desire
Nov 24th 2008, 04:56 AM
Ok, why must these people be alive at the time of this judgment?

When Jesus says all Nations are gathered does He describe a resurrection? If not, then they must already be alive and living in many nations.

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 08:19 PM
When Jesus says all Nations are gathered does He describe a resurrection? If not, then they must already be alive and living in many nations.

Just because He doesn't mention the resurrection does not mean that He is talking about a different judgment.

I don't understand why people form doctrine based on what is not said in Scripture.

Free_from_sin
Nov 25th 2008, 12:24 AM
As on many Bible topics, I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, But God has showed me an angle on the once saved always saved issue, that I would like to share with all who will read this thread. To start with, let me say that there are many verses on the left side ( the side that says we can lose our salvation ) that I struggle with. But there are many verses on the right side ( or what I think is the right side, where I can't do anything to lose my salvation,Where I didn't do anything to earn my salvation, Not my works, But Jesus did the work for me, so to say that I can lose my salvation is to say that His works was not good enough for me, !!) that the other side can't answer either. Now here is the angle, I have heard from the left side many many times, that once we have called upon the Name of the Lord ( the key here is if we call upon the name of the Lord, we must then make Him Lord ) but even if we are saved and right before we are called home either way by the grave or the rapture, if we sin just before we are called home we can lose our salvation. IF this is true then would someone please explain the verses

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Now here is the question if we lose our salvation with every little sin, where does Chastisement come in, for if God kicks us out of the Family with every little sin, then there is no need for Him to reprove, rebuke and then chasten us, for we are not sons/daughters but bastards and we have no Father, and we only become sons of God through faith in our adoption by Jesus Christ our big Brother. Please do not over load this thread with all the verses you have, where you believe we can lose our salvation just please keep the thoughts you share to the answering to my one question. if we can lose our salvation by sinning after we come to His knowledge then where does the doctrine of chastisement come in???

Here I go I am saved, but I look at a woman with lust on my mind, that small little voice speaks up and says you know you really shouldn't think like that(reprove). But I keep looking then that voice becomes alot more stern I TOLD YOU YOU REALLY SHOULDN"T BE THINKING LIKE THAT!(rebuke) but this is really a good looking woman Lord, and You really did bless her. Bam here comes out the whip(chastisement), But by the whip I know that I am still one of His because whom He chastens He also loves For the Father chastens His children not the Lost.

Or here I go I look at a woman with lust on my mind, Bam I burn!! For the Father lied when He said those He chastens He also loves.

Now I don't mean to be so blunt here, but I know no other way to express this, it all comes down to our faith and where is, or whom is our faith in.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus is my Author and He is my Finisher of my faith, I didn't write my plan of salvation and I can't keep it. Thats why My faith needs to be In Jesus not in me.

Heb 11:6 (http://bibleforums.org/heb+11:6)Butwithout faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Yes There is a calling for His Children to Live right, so if the righteousness has to exceed the righteousness of scribes and Pharisees , How will any ever enter into heaven? I plea the BLOOD, not my works :pp

Now hold up, where does it say that God's chastening comes into play when we sin? He chastens us by teaching us and refining us, making us into better people, leading us into further truth, helping us mature as Christians. We don't need God's voice to say "That's wrong, stop it" when we sin, that's what He gave us a conscience is for. In fact, God saying "That's wrong, stop it" isn't even a form of correction. In the bible when He pleaded with Israel to turn from their sins, He said "repent, or else", and when they didn't stop He cut them off. It's the same today for us when we sin; we think a lustful thought, for example, immediately our conscience tells us we have done wrong, at that point we have the option to repent or else lose our relationship with God. If we don't repent then we have cut ourselves off from God. One sin will cut us off if we don't repent for it, and if we do repent, as soon as we do our position in God's kingdom is reinstated. But if we are in a state of unrepentant sin we cannot claim to have a relationship with God for our sin has separated us from Him. "Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." Isaiah 59:1,2.

Let's have a look at your lust analogy,

According to you when we lust there's a voice in our heads that says "Psst, don't do that", then we keep lusting and it says "Hey, don't think that!" and so on, and this is all the punishment for our sins we are to receive. But that's not quite how God's word puts it. Let's have a look-- "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." James 1:15.

It does not say "when lust hath conceived, it brings forth a little voice that says 'you really shouldn't be doing that.'" No. The instant lust is conceived in our mind it brings forth sin, and sin brings forth immidiate spiritual death (see also Romans 6:23, & Ezekiel 18:20).

So, yes, one sin separates us from God. But God always gives us the opportunity to repent. Think about it, a guy's at the mall, and a beautiful scantily dressed woman walks by. As soon as he notices how tastelessly dressed she is, he has the choice to (a) look away and remove temptation from before him, or (b) keep looking. Say he choose option B. He just had one opportunity to avoid sin, and he didn't take it, he's done wrong. Now his conscience kicks in, he knows he should look away, but again, he has the choice to keep looking and start lusting, or to repent for not looking away in the first place. He chooses to keep looking, there goes an opportunity to repent. As he continues to lust he continues also to know that what he is doing is wrong, and second by second he's making a decision not to repent. The lady moves on, he decides to leave the mall. As he's walking toward the exit he still knows he did wrong, he can repent, but he doesn't. He walks outside the mall, steps into the street, gets hit by a car and dies. Now did he have an opportunity to repent for his sin before he died? Yes. Did he take it? No. So if he goes to hell because of that sin, is it in any way unjust? No. From the instant he chose to sin intil the second before he died he had space to repent, and he didn't take it.
"And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not." Revelation 2:21. We shouldn't sin in the first place, but if we do, God gives space for repentance, and it's up to us whether or not we take it.

Ekeak
Nov 25th 2008, 03:52 AM
I pray that you're right, Thaddaeus, but here's some 'left' (or perhaps right) verses for you. Now by these, I don't mean to judge anyone, but I mean to forward what has been presented to me as the Truth (I'm Southern... err... I think Southern but maybe just Baptist) and there sure have been masses of Saints.

Romans 9:20-24 (New King James Version)

New King James Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=50) (NKJV) Copyright 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. (http://nelsonbibles.com/)
http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=94 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=94) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=30)

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

My heart's Desire
Nov 25th 2008, 05:44 AM
Just because He doesn't mention the resurrection does not mean that He is talking about a different judgment.

I don't understand why people form doctrine based on what is not said in Scripture.
It is called comparing scripture with scripture. You can only go by what is common to 2 passages, but also with what is missing is also helpful in deciding which event or time frame something is speaking of.