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Indueseason
Nov 10th 2008, 09:24 PM
:confused Why does the Holy Spirit lead the disciples in Tyre to tell Paul not to go to Jerusalem, yet He compels Paul to go??


NLT Act 20:22 "And now I am going to Jerusalem, drawn there irresistibly by the Holy Spirit, not knowing what awaits me,

NKJV Act 20:22 "And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there,

````````````````````````````

NLT Act 21:4 We went ashore, found the local believers, and stayed with them a week. These disciples prophesied through the Holy Spirit that Paul should not go on to Jerusalem.

NKJV Act 21:4 And finding disciples, we stayed there seven days. They told Paul through the Spirit not to go up to Jerusalem.


:confused Why would the Holy Spirit tell the disciples that Paul shouldn't go, when we know that Paul was meant to go to Jerusalem ??


NTL Act 22:21 "But the Lord said to me, `Leave Jerusalem, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles!' "

NKJV Acts 22:21 "Then He said to me, 'Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.'"

:giveup:this has me stumped, so help would be appreciated. Thanks :hug:

Indueseason
Nov 11th 2008, 02:53 PM
:confused Does no one even have a thought about these scriptures? I've thought about them and prayed about them since yesterday morning, and now it seems my thoughts are just going round in circles :(They just dont make any sense, yet it seems to be a very important subject. :help:

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 11th 2008, 03:23 PM
It's about that, it's it. Paul is suppose to go to Jerusalem to fulfill his
vow just as Samson and the LORD Jesus Christ. The disciples knew it will be dangerous but Paul knew about it.
Judges 13
2 A certain man of Zorah, named Manoah, from the clan of the Danites, had a wife who was sterile and remained childless. 3 The angel of the LORD appeared to her and said, "You are sterile and childless, but you are going to conceive and have a son. 4 Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean, 5 because you will conceive and give birth to a son. No razor may be used on his head, because the boy is to be a Nazirite, set apart to God from birth, and he will begin the deliverance of Israel from the hands of the Philistines."

SINCE, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=9&version=31, HE HAD TO FINISH HIS RACE....http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=4&version=31&context=chapter


:confused Why does the Holy Spirit lead the disciples in Tyre to tell Paul not to go to Jerusalem, yet He compels Paul to go??

NLT Act 20:22 "And now I am going to Jerusalem, drawn there irresistibly by the Holy Spirit, not knowing what awaits me,

NKJV Act 20:22 "And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there,

````````````````````````````

NLT Act 21:4 We went ashore, found the local believers, and stayed with them a week. These disciples prophesied through the Holy Spirit that Paul should not go on to Jerusalem.

NKJV Act 21:4 And finding disciples, we stayed there seven days. They told Paul through the Spirit not to go up to Jerusalem.


:confused Why would the Holy Spirit tell the disciples that Paul shouldn't go, when we know that Paul was meant to go to Jerusalem ??


NTL Act 22:21 "But the Lord said to me, `Leave Jerusalem, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles!' "

NKJV Acts 22:21 "Then He said to me, 'Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.'"

:giveup:this has me stumped, so help would be appreciated. Thanks :hug:

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 11th 2008, 03:26 PM
It's not opposite what the Holy Spirit said but, just the Holy Spirit want to warn Paul of the coming danger when he goes to Jerusalem and the other disciples.;)

Zack702
Nov 11th 2008, 03:31 PM
There is one thing about Paul and that he was willing.

Lets see what the man named Agabus told Paul...

10And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
11And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
12And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.
13Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.

So why does the prophet test Pauls heart? Paul had to be ready. Because there was things that Paul understood that the priests in Jerusalem did not. The spirit made him aware that there was conflict and trials awaiting.

Indueseason
Nov 11th 2008, 04:02 PM
:hug: Thank you Shinichi Kudo and Zack for replying. I still see that the Holy Spirit told Paul one thing and the disciples another. I understand Agabus, he was led by the Holy Spirit to warn Paul of what he would have to face, and it was confirmation to Paul of what the Spirit had told him (Act 20:23) As you said Zack, it would also have been a test for Paul to keep running his race, even with the knowledge of whats to come.

My problem is that the Holy Spirit led the other disciples to believe that Paul wasn't to go, when really he was to go?? Now it may have been a test for Paul, but I'm sure the disciples didn't know this? Wouldn't they have just thought that the Holy Spirit didn't want Paul to go? :confused

9Marksfan
Nov 11th 2008, 07:09 PM
:hug: Thank you Shinichi Kudo and Zack for replying. I still see that the Holy Spirit told Paul one thing and the disciples another. I understand Agabus, he was led by the Holy Spirit to warn Paul of what he would have to face, and it was confirmation to Paul of what the Spirit had told him (Act 20:23) As you said Zack, it would also have been a test for Paul to keep running his race, even with the knowledge of whats to come.

My problem is that the Holy Spirit led the other disciples to believe that Paul wasn't to go, when really he was to go?? Now it may have been a test for Paul, but I'm sure the disciples didn't know this? Wouldn't they have just thought that the Holy Spirit didn't want Paul to go? :confused

We discussed this at our house group a few months ago as we were going through the book - the Spirit had revealed to the disciples that Paul would suffer persecution if he went to Jerusalem - they had drawn a wrong conclusion from the limited revelation that the Spirit gave them (that this meant he was NOT to go) - but He still permitted that, because it would be a good test for Paul - it's fascinating that EVERYONE - including Luke - misinterpreted the Spirit's revelation - ONLY Paul got it right - an encouragement to those of us who often find ourselves a lone voice among many otherwise sound Christians who all disagree with us, especially on a guidance issue.....

Indueseason
Nov 11th 2008, 07:23 PM
We discussed this at our house group a few months ago as we were going through the book - the Spirit had revealed to the disciples that Paul would suffer persecution if he went to Jerusalem - they had drawn a wrong conclusion from the limited revelation that the Spirit gave them (that this meant he was NOT to go) - but He still permitted that, because it would be a good test for Paul - it's fascinating that EVERYONE - including Luke - misinterpreted the Spirit's revelation - ONLY Paul got it right - an encouragement to those of us who often find ourselves a lone voice among many otherwise sound Christians who all disagree with us, especially on a guidance issue.....

I'm sure glad someone has studied this and I thank you for sharing. It makes more sense than where I was ;)

I'm rather uneasy about this bit


but He still permitted that, because it would be a good test for Paul

So you think we can receive insight from the Holy Spirit but still not understand it fully, so that you end up with a wrong understanding?? On top of that, the Lord may allow you to have that understanding without correcting you?? :(How do we know when the Lord is allowing us to have a faulty understanding and when He's not?? :confused

Sorry about all the questions, I think I'm giving myself a nose bleed with it all :blush:

Firstfruits
Nov 11th 2008, 07:31 PM
:confused Why does the Holy Spirit lead the disciples in Tyre to tell Paul not to go to Jerusalem, yet He compels Paul to go??


NLT Act 20:22 "And now I am going to Jerusalem, drawn there irresistibly by the Holy Spirit, not knowing what awaits me,

NKJV Act 20:22 "And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there,

````````````````````````````

NLT Act 21:4 We went ashore, found the local believers, and stayed with them a week. These disciples prophesied through the Holy Spirit that Paul should not go on to Jerusalem.

NKJV Act 21:4 And finding disciples, we stayed there seven days. They told Paul through the Spirit not to go up to Jerusalem.


:confused Why would the Holy Spirit tell the disciples that Paul shouldn't go, when we know that Paul was meant to go to Jerusalem ??


NTL Act 22:21 "But the Lord said to me, `Leave Jerusalem, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles!' "

NKJV Acts 22:21 "Then He said to me, 'Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.'"

:giveup:this has me stumped, so help would be appreciated. Thanks :hug:

According to the following, it was Pauls decision to go to Jerusalem.

Acts 19:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.

I hope that helps.

Firstfruits

Indueseason
Nov 11th 2008, 07:36 PM
According to the following, it was Pauls decision to go to Jerusalem.

Acts 19:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.

I hope that helps.

Firstfruits

But...

NKJV Act 20:22 "And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there,

Seems like he had purposed to go because the Spirit had bound him to go.

:hug: thanks

Firstfruits
Nov 11th 2008, 07:56 PM
But...

NKJV Act 20:22 "And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there,

Seems like he had purposed to go because the Spirit had bound him to go.

:hug: thanks

Because Paul had decided to go it was like a promise to the Holy Spirit, and he was bound by that promise to the Spirit, but it was not the Spirit that bound him to go otherwise the Spirit would have contradicted himself by telling the Disciples one thing and another thing to Paul.

Firstfruits

Indueseason
Nov 11th 2008, 08:03 PM
:lol: Hey, your getting me confused again! Where's that 9Marks gone :)

But ....

Paul being led to go to Jerusalem would fit because a little later the Lord tells him (Act 23:11) That he must testify in Rome. By being led to Jerusalem, the journey was beginning that would take him to Rome.

:hmm:

Zack702
Nov 11th 2008, 08:17 PM
11And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

This is exactly what happened to Paul when he went up.
I don't think anyone err'ed here. They simply wanted Paul to go elsewhere and not up to Jerusalem. Personaly I think they did exactly what they were supposed to do in order to help prepare Paul for what he faced. As soon as he went up they bound him in chains and the Gentiles came in and put him in a trial.

Indueseason
Nov 11th 2008, 08:23 PM
11And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

This is exactly what happened to Paul when he went up.
I don't think anyone err'ed here. They simply wanted Paul to go elsewhere and not up to Jerusalem. Personaly I think they did exactly what they were supposed to do in order to help prepare Paul for what he faced. As soon as he went up they bound him in chains and the Gentiles came in and put him in a trial.

I agree with you. I never had a problem with Agabus since that was only confirming what Paul indeed would go through. It was the other disciples that was my problem :)

Firstfruits
Nov 11th 2008, 08:28 PM
:lol: Hey, your getting me confused again! Where's that 9Marks gone :)

But ....

Paul being led to go to Jerusalem would fit because a little later the Lord tells him (Act 23:11) That he must testify in Rome. By being led to Jerusalem, the journey was beginning that would take him to Rome.

:hmm:

Jesus does not say that he was led but that he had testified in Jerusalem.

Acts 23:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

You could say that Pauls desire to go to Jerusalem led him to go.

After Paul had purposed to go a prophet was sent to tell Paul and the Disciples what would happen to Paul by Going to Jerusalem, Paul was then even more determined to go.

Acts 21:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Nov 12th 2008, 12:38 PM
:lol: Hey, your getting me confused again! Where's that 9Marks gone :)

Here I am! :pp Sorry - politic to spend a bit of time with the trouble and strife last night! :rolleyes:


But ....

Paul being led to go to Jerusalem would fit because a little later the Lord tells him (Act 23:11) That he must testify in Rome. By being led to Jerusalem, the journey was beginning that would take him to Rome.

:hmm:

You hit the nail on the head! You don't need me at all! But here's another pointer:-

And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulation await me. Acts 20:22-23 NKJV

It's fascinating that, while the disciples at Tyre have either misinterpreted the message from the Spirit or simply been called to test Paul (or both), Agabus' prophecy is spot on - but is misinterpreted by all EXCEPT Paul (there is an interesting application here - we all think that God will keep us from suffering - but Paul knows that suffering is the NORM for him - and, in some sense, for every believer) - it's a real lesson to read:-

So when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, "The will of the Lord be done". Acts 21:14 NKJV

I agree that Acts 23:11 is a wonderfully warm confirmation that it WAS God's will for him to go up to Jerusalem - surely if Paul had disobeyed, he would have either been prevented from going there (cf 16:6-10) or would have been rebuked by Christ in 23:11, not encouraged and comforted?

I'll respond to your other post separately.

9Marksfan
Nov 12th 2008, 12:47 PM
I don't think anyone err'ed here. They simply wanted Paul to go elsewhere and not up to Jerusalem.

Isn't that erring? The Spirit had called Paul to go to Jerusalem - the disciples said "Don't go!" - seems pretty clear to me!

9Marksfan
Nov 12th 2008, 01:03 PM
I'm sure glad someone has studied this and I thank you for sharing. It makes more sense than where I was ;)

Glad it was a help - I love Acts - I get more out of it every time I read it - we preached through it at church about 10 years ago too - I drew out the guidance issue at that time - the passage in early ch 16 is fascinating too - Paul got the SPirit's direction wrong not once but TWICE! Great to know he was fallible like us.....:)


So you think we can receive insight from the Holy Spirit but still not understand it fully, so that you end up with a wrong understanding??

Undoubtedly.


On top of that, the Lord may allow you to have that understanding without correcting you?? :(

Yes - but always for a greater purpose!


How do we know when the Lord is allowing us to have a faulty understanding and when He's not?? :confused {/quote]

A tricky one - it depends on whether it's a doctrinal or a guidance matter - doctrinal is clear - if it accords with the whole teaching of the word of God, it's the leading of the Spirit into all truth, esp if it exalts the person and work of Christ (which it's the Spirit's ministry to do). With guidance...... well! NOW you're asking! I think we just have to rely on the sovereignty of God - and make sure we are always seeking His will - He may well permit us to make genuine mistakes, but will use even these as some of the "all things" that work together for our good. I know what you mean, though - I followed what I was sure was His leading in every way four years ago to set up my own business - it bombed spectacularly after 14 months and, while I got another job straight away, I'm now out of work, in my mid-40s, with a wife and two young kids to support, as well as a huge mortgage - and we're about to enter the biggest recession the world has probably ever seen - but I am at peace about everything and know in my heart that God has His hand on things - He will accomplish that which concerns us - for His glory and our great blessing. :)

[quote]Sorry about all the questions, I think I'm giving myself a nose bleed with it all :blush:

No worries - they're good questions!

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2008, 01:09 PM
Isn't that erring? The Spirit had called Paul to go to Jerusalem - the disciples said "Don't go!" - seems pretty clear to me!

With regards to the following, what does it mean if Paul purposed to go and not The Spirit telling him to go?

Acts 19:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Nov 12th 2008, 01:50 PM
With regards to the following, what does it mean if Paul purposed to go and not The Spirit telling him to go?

Acts 19:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

My NKJV has "purposed in the Spirit" (I see the ESV has it too) - but even if it is Paul's spirit, I believe this was a case where (as usual, but not always), He was following the Spirit's direction. It's encumbent upon us to purpose in our spirits to do the Spirit's will, once we know it - it's called active, dependent obedience - we don't "let go and let God".

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2008, 02:25 PM
My NKJV has "purposed in the Spirit" (I see the ESV has it too) - but even if it is Paul's spirit, I believe this was a case where (as usual, but not always), He was following the Spirit's direction. It's encumbent upon us to purpose in our spirits to do the Spirit's will, once we know it - it's called active, dependent obedience - we don't "let go and let God".

If Paul decided in his own spirit even if it was to do the will of God it would therefore not contradict what the Disciples were told by the Spirit.

Firstfruits

Thaddaeus
Nov 12th 2008, 03:13 PM
I am amazed doesn't anyone ever notice capitalization any more

Ac 20:22And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

even though paul referrs to the spirit. it is spelled with a little s not a big S. so Paul was saying that even though the Spirit had told him not to go and later had even warned him of what would happen. Paul was bound under either his spirit for the law or the spirit of tradition. there are many types of spirits mentioned in the Bible spirit of evil, spirit of fear, spirit of love. notice here Ac 21:4And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.

the Spirit with the big S told him not to go, the spirit with the little s told him to go, not the same spirit. He is not the Author of confusion, come on people. when you see a contradition in the scriptures. keep digging til you work it out, pray and fast over it, God will shine light on it. for this is the inspired Word of God, the only contraditions in here are the way we misunderstand what we read. pray for me and I will pray for u for I have misread scriptures in the past before also and as paul I also do what I shouldn't and what I should do, I don't


His spirit had bound him by tradition to Ac 20:16For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

remember when paul said for things I should do, I do not and the thing I do, I should not, this is one of those times and when we all do this, when we do these things we want to do, we self justify them by saying that alot of good can we do by doing this, Paul was flesh just like we all are. read the entire story again with this thought that it was Paul's spirit or the spirit of tradition that had him bound to go to Jerusalem. I think it will keep the Holy Spirit, Holy and not the spirit of confusion. we have to pay attention to the little things people esp the little s's. WOW a whole bible study and no one notices the little s or big S. But even though Paul was not suppose to go, God allow good things to come out of it because we all know

Ro 8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Thaddaeus
Nov 12th 2008, 03:28 PM
9marksfan:Quote:
But ....

Paul being led to go to Jerusalem would fit because a little later the Lord tells him (Act 23:11) That he must testify in Rome. By being led to Jerusalem, the journey was beginning that would take him to Rome.


Ac 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

God was not telling paul it was ok to go to jerusalam but noticed the past tense "for as thou hast testified" it had already happened dude and he was saying; as you went to Jerusalam now you must go to Rome.

RogerW
Nov 12th 2008, 04:31 PM
Here I am! :pp Sorry - politic to spend a bit of time with the trouble and strife last night! :rolleyes:

You hit the nail on the head! You don't need me at all! But here's another pointer:-

And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulation await me. Acts 20:22-23 NKJV

It's fascinating that, while the disciples at Tyre have either misinterpreted the message from the Spirit or simply been called to test Paul (or both), Agabus' prophecy is spot on - but is misinterpreted by all EXCEPT Paul (there is an interesting application here - we all think that God will keep us from suffering - but Paul knows that suffering is the NORM for him - and, in some sense, for every believer) - it's a real lesson to read:-

So when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, "The will of the Lord be done". Acts 21:14 NKJV

I agree that Acts 23:11 is a wonderfully warm confirmation that it WAS God's will for him to go up to Jerusalem - surely if Paul had disobeyed, he would have either been prevented from going there (cf 16:6-10) or would have been rebuked by Christ in 23:11, not encouraged and comforted?

I'll respond to your other post separately.

Greetings Nigel,

You have clearly shown how Paul has properly understood the message from the Spirit that he must go to Jerusalem. I have to say that I don't really see any misunderstanding of the Spirit's message by Paul, the disciples at Tyre, or Agabus. It seems they had all received the same message, that was persecution, chains and likely death awaited Paul in Jerusalem.

I would say the disciples and Agabus were simply attempting to stop Paul from going because they did not want him to be tortured or put to death. But when Paul explained to them that they were breaking his heart, asking him to stay, because he was "ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus", then they saw "he would not be persuaded", saying, "The will of the Lord be done."

There was no mixed message from the Spirit, or any confusion at all. They all knew Paul's fate, but also all accepted that it was the will of God that Paul go there.

Many Blessings,
RW

Indueseason
Nov 12th 2008, 05:17 PM
Glad it was a help - I love Acts - I get more out of it every time I read it - we preached through it at church about 10 years ago too - I drew out the guidance issue at that time - the passage in early ch 16 is fascinating too - Paul got the SPirit's direction wrong not once but TWICE! Great to know he was fallible like us.....:)



Undoubtedly.



Yes - but always for a greater purpose!


How do we know when the Lord is allowing us to have a faulty understanding and when He's not?? :confused {/quote]

A tricky one - it depends on whether it's a doctrinal or a guidance matter - doctrinal is clear - if it accords with the whole teaching of the word of God, it's the leading of the Spirit into all truth, esp if it exalts the person and work of Christ (which it's the Spirit's ministry to do). With guidance...... well! NOW you're asking! I think we just have to rely on the sovereignty of God - and make sure we are always seeking His will - He may well permit us to make genuine mistakes, but will use even these as some of the "all things" that work together for our good. I know what you mean, though - I followed what I was sure was His leading in every way four years ago to set up my own business - it bombed spectacularly after 14 months and, while I got another job straight away, I'm now out of work, in my mid-40s, with a wife and two young kids to support, as well as a huge mortgage - and we're about to enter the biggest recession the world has probably ever seen - but I am at peace about everything and know in my heart that God has His hand on things - He will accomplish that which concerns us - for His glory and our great blessing. :)



No worries - they're good questions!

:hug: Thank you for your insight on this passage of scripture. I have taken your responses to prayer and feel much more at peace with the subject. Studying theses scriptures has helped me to understand, to some degree, other "bigger" questions that I needed some clarity on. Another piece of the puzzle! :pp

You are right about Gods hand of provision. Sheep do not need to concern themselves over where they will live or what they will eat.They do not have to be anxious about the road ahead. They need only heed the shepherds voice and follow the path he leads them on. :)

Thank you to all who shared on this thread! May the Lord bless you!

9Marksfan
Nov 13th 2008, 11:54 AM
If Paul decided in his own spirit even if it was to do the will of God it would therefore not contradict what the Disciples were told by the Spirit.

Firstfruits

Only if God intended their misinterpretation to be a test for Paul.

Firstfruits
Nov 13th 2008, 12:15 PM
Only if God intended their misinterpretation to be a test for Paul.

With regards to the following scripture, God would not test anyone to go against His will.

Jas 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Nov 13th 2008, 12:21 PM
I am amazed doesn't anyone ever notice capitalization any more

Ac 20:22And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

even though paul referrs to the spirit. it is spelled with a little s not a big S.

Not in most of the best translations:-

NIV And now, compelled by the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there.

NASB And now, behold, bound by the Spirit, I am on my way to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there,

ESV And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, constrained by the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to me there,

YLT And now, lo, I -- bound in the Spirit -- go on to Jerusalem, the things that shall befall me in it not knowing,




This really is reaching - where do you get the idea of law or tradition here? Are you saying that he was going back to being a proud Pharisee as he sought to serve Christ? SURELY he would have been severely rebuked by Christ, had that been the case? I accept that he got guidance wrong on occasion (cf ch16) but the Spirit PREVENTED him form going to the "wrong" places. Not here - it was God's will that he go to Jerusalem - as confirmed by Agabus.

[quote]there are many types of spirits mentioned in the Bible spirit of evil, spirit of fear, spirit of love. notice here Ac 21:4And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.

the Spirit with the big S told him not to go, the spirit with the little s told him to go, not the same spirit.

Not at all - as I said, the best transaltions are divided over whether it is Spirit or spirit - surely if it were spirit, he would have said "MY spirit" - why would he say "the spirit"? It just doesn't sound right. Also, "through the Spirit" could just as well mean that they were initially told by the Spirit that Paul would be bound if he went to Jerusalem - so the Spirit was the source of that info - so it was through the Spirit - but like the others later, they misinterpreted what the Spirit said - yet the Spirit did not stop them, because it would be a good test for Paul - so you could say that the revelation of imprisonment at Jerusalem was the perfect will of the Spirit and the misinterpretation was the permissive will of the Spirit.


He is not the Author of confusion, come on people. when you see a contradition in the scriptures. keep digging til you work it out, pray and fast over it, God will shine light on it. for this is the inspired Word of God, the only contraditions in here are the way we misunderstand what we read. pray for me and I will pray for u for I have misread scriptures in the past before also and as paul I also do what I shouldn't and what I should do, I don't

That is a gross misapplication of Rom 7 - are you saying it was sinful of Paul to go to Jerusalem? Disobedient?


His spirit had bound him by tradition to Ac 20:16For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

Where is the tradition? Where is the "in the spirit [of tradition]"? Is it not the case that even IF it is "bound in the spirit", it is because the HOLY Spirit bound him in his own spirit to do so?


remember when paul said for things I should do, I do not and the thing I do, I should not,

You are misquoting and misapplying Rom 7 - here's what Paul really said there - it's not about doing what you want instead of what God wants you to do:-

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. Rom 7:14-20 ESV

So it was sin - evil - for Paul to go to Jerusalem? And he didn't want to go? :confused


this is one of those times and when we all do this, when we do these things we want to do, we self justify them by saying that a lot of good can we do by doing this,

This is the exact opposite of what Paul is saying in Rom 7.


Paul was flesh just like we all are. read the entire story again with this thought that it was Paul's spirit or the spirit of tradition that had him bound to go to Jerusalem.

Even if that is the case, that is not what Rom 7 teaches. Why did the Spirit not stop him as in ch 16? Why did Christ effectively commend him for this sin/evil/disobedience in 23:11?


I think it will keep the Holy Spirit, Holy and not the spirit of confusion.

The Spirit led Christ into temptation - He is free to do a whole bunch of things we don't expect. Stop trying to put Him in a box!


we have to pay attention to the little things people esp the little s's. WOW a whole bible study and no one notices the little s or big S. But even though Paul was not supposed to go, God allow good things to come out of it because we all know

Ro 8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

See above. Of course I noticed the small "s" - if the KJV/NKJV/ASV ARE correct, I believe it was because his spirit was bound and captive to the Holy Spirit's leadings - if we disobey God and go where we're not called, God will either stop us (ch 16) or chasten us (Heb 12) - not commend us.

9Marksfan
Nov 13th 2008, 12:26 PM
9marksfan:Quote:
But ....

Paul being led to go to Jerusalem would fit because a little later the Lord tells him (Act 23:11) that he must testify in Rome. By being led to Jerusalem, the journey was beginning that would take him to Rome.


Ac 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

God was not telling paul it was ok to go to jerusalam but noticed the past tense "for as thou hast testified" it had already happened dude and he was saying; as you went to Jerusalam now you must go to Rome.[/quote]

:B Don't you think I realise that he had already done it? READ the context!

for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

He HAD to testify in Jerusalem (as it was the Spirit's will) and he HAD to testify in Rome! There was no difference between the two - hence the "as....so" framework. It's not as if the testifying in Jerusalem wasn't God's will and the testifying in Rome was - quite the opposite! BOTH were God's will!

9Marksfan
Nov 13th 2008, 12:31 PM
With regards to the following scripture, God would not test anyone to go against His will.

Jas 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

What about God's command to Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? Or this?

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. Matt 4:1 NIV

Walstib
Nov 15th 2008, 04:06 AM
And finding disciples, [91] we stayed there seven days. They told Paul through the Spirit not to go up to Jerusalem. When we had come to the end of those days, we departed and went on our way; and they all accompanied us, with wives and children, till we were out of the city. And we knelt down on the shore and prayed. (Act 21:4-5 NKJV)

I think I am the only one to post this angle....

What if the disciples told Paul not to go on day one of the seven days? The message from the Holy Spirit was not to never go to Jerusalem but to wait some time first. At "the end of those days" Paul went in agreement with both passages.

Maybe this simple???

Joe

9Marksfan
Nov 15th 2008, 06:13 PM
And finding disciples, [91] we stayed there seven days. They told Paul through the Spirit not to go up to Jerusalem. When we had come to the end of those days, we departed and went on our way; and they all accompanied us, with wives and children, till we were out of the city. And we knelt down on the shore and prayed. (Act 21:4-5 NKJV)

I think I am the only one to post this angle....

What if the disciples told Paul not to go on day one of the seven days? The message from the Holy Spirit was not to never go to Jerusalem but to wait some time first. At "the end of those days" Paul went in agreement with both passages.

Maybe this simple???

Joe


You know, I came to that conclusion after I read the verse and before I read your post! Maybe the Spirit is leading BOTH of us! Really good point! It would still leave the disciples (including Luke) with the wrong end of the stick later on, though.....they clearly misinterpreted Agabus' prophecy.

Firstfruits
Nov 15th 2008, 07:19 PM
What about God's command to Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? Or this?

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. Matt 4:1 NIV

Who was it that tempted Jesus?

I will look into Abraham and Isaac.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Zack702
Nov 16th 2008, 12:09 PM
Only if God intended their misinterpretation to be a test for Paul.

What is the interpretation of the prophecy?
That the man would be bound and handed over to the Gentiles.

So maybe the mistake of the disciples is that they saw prophecy as a warning. And perhaps Paul saw it as a revelation.

I think tho that the reason the disciples said "don't go" is because they were exercising the golden rule and I don't see anything wrong with that.

Firstfruits
Nov 16th 2008, 12:34 PM
What about God's command to Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? Or this?

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. Matt 4:1 NIV

As I said regarding Jesus being tempted he was tempted by Satan.

As it is written God did tempt Abraham; Gen 22:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

With regards to the following it was to to prove him and to see if he would obey him.

Deut 8:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

Deut 8:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;

The following refers to being tempted with evil/sin.

Jas 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

With regards to Paul it is not written that the Holy Spirit told Paul to go to Jerusalem, but that he purposed.

Acts 19:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.

Paul decided to that when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, that he would then go to Jerusalem.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Nov 16th 2008, 10:06 PM
What is the interpretation of the prophecy?
That the man would be bound and handed over to the Gentiles.

So maybe the mistake of the disciples is that they saw prophecy as a warning. And perhaps Paul saw it as a revelation.

I agree.


I think tho that the reason the disciples said "don't go" is because they were exercising the golden rule and I don't see anything wrong with that.

Hmm - possibly - but I think (like us) they had the wrong idea about the place of suffering in the Christian's life. Frequently (as here) it is in fact God's will.

9Marksfan
Nov 16th 2008, 10:27 PM
As I said regarding Jesus being tempted he was tempted by Satan.

Of course, but the Spirit led Him specifically for that purpose.


As it is written God did tempt Abraham; Gen 22:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

With regards to the following it was to to prove him and to see if he would obey him.

Yes - and I believe that, unless the disciples from Tyre were prophesying that he should not go at that time, then God permitted their misinterpretation because He wanted to test his obedience to the general principle he had for every city - I didn't say tempt, but test - Satan tempts us to get the worst out of us - God tests us to bring the best out of us - but the two experiences are frequently one and the same....


Deut 8:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

Deut 8:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;

Amen!


The following refers to being tempted with evil/sin.

Jas 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Again, agreed.


With regards to Paul it is not written that the Holy Spirit told Paul to go to Jerusalem, but that he purposed.

See my earlier posts on this. You haven't responded to my post about this being disobedience/evil/sin - why would Christ later stand by him and comfort him if he were being disobedient?!?


Acts 19:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.

Paul decided to that when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, that he would then go to Jerusalem.

Again, see my earlier posts.