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JRed E2GO
Nov 10th 2008, 10:13 PM
People don't like to hear about Hell, but I'm here to tell you that if Jesus is not your Lord and Savior then you are on your way to Hell. For those of you who know that Hell exists (trust me, the Bible says it's a real place and the greatest deception that Satan ever achieved was convincing the world that he and Hell didn't exist), you will be upset at this bad news.

You may think that I'm all "gloom-and-doom." Tell me this...If your house were on fire, would you want me to let you know? Of course you would! You'd probably thank me for telling you. Well, if you go to Hell, you will be the one on fire. I'm just trying to help.

So, today I want to spend a little time examing the Lake of Fire. What does God and the Bible say about it? Specifically what is it exactly? What is its purpose? Who is it for? And how does all of this relate to prophecy?

Let's take a look at what the Bible says. Here are a few scriptures that deal with Hell and the Lake of Fire (at the final judgment, Hell, death and those not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire):

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment) - "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Revelation 14:11 - "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night..."

Revelation 20:12,15 - "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Matthew 10:28 - "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Luke 12:5 - "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

Matthew 18:8,9 - "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

Matthew 25:46 - "And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - "Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

Isaiah 66:24 - "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh."

Mark 9:44 (speaking of Hell) - "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Jude 7 - "Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Matthew 22:13 - "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-42 - "The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Revelation 21:8 - "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Psalm 9:17 - "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."

Isaiah 14:99-11,15 (referring to Lucifer) - "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

Daniel 12:2 - "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Psalm 37:20 also shows the ultimate fate of the wicked will be destruction by fire. The "hell fire" that the Bible speaks of will be thousands of degrees hotter than the imaginary "hell fire" of most preachers - which is only hot enough to torment. The biblical "hell fire" will totally consume the disobedient! Notice also that it is God who will burn the wicked up - not Satan or his demons like most think thanks to cartoons, television and film.

The Bible plainly shows that those who have known God's truth and still refuse to obey it, or willfully disobey, will reap the wages of sin - eternal death (Romans 6:23)! This scripture means what it says. The attempts of many theologians to "explain away" death and to "interpret" it as mere "separation from God" cannot be reconciled with Scripture. Death clearly does not mean "eternal life" in the horrifying torments of an eternal "hell." The author of this pagan deception is none other than the father of lies - Satan the Devil (John 8:44)!

Therefore, it is not unreasonable that we should fear God. Jesus Christ Himself says that we are to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Hell. Why? He is the only One who can revoke the judgment by fire. The wages of sin is death by fire. If we want to escape this punishment, we can see that it is closely connected to whether or not we actually fear God.

Surely, this is a frightening place we don't even want to visit - even for a single moment. So why would we want to risk spending eternity in a place like this is we can do something about it? I'm sure that there are some people reading this who probably agree that this is a place they definitely want to avoid, but they'll say something about putting off a decision like that until a later date and time. Friends, you could die tomorrow and if you did before you made a decision for Christ you're lost for good! Don't take that chance!

Speaking of "chance" did you know that us Christians don't believe in mere "chance" or "luck" and instead know that EVERYTHING happens for a reason according to God's own perfect will as well as His own perfect timing? Now, I ask you to consider if knowing that makes you feel like you're here reading this now by "chance" or, do you think that perhaps God led you here and He's hoping to FINALLY get your attention so that He can call you His once and for all and save you from eternal punishment? Just think about that for a moment.

When people ask me why they should even study prophecy let alone care about any of it if it means the entire world is going to come to a catastrophic end, I try to tell them that they need to look at things at a personal level. To take an attitude of "there's no hope!" and simply throw your hands up in the air and shrug your shoulders is not only irresponsible, but it will be the biggest mistake of your life. I cannot stress that enough.

Think of it this way...Would you jump out of an airplane without a parachute? Of course not! Then why in the world would you treat your eternal future with such carelessness when the "parachute" you need is Jesus Christ - a free gift that you simply need to reach out and cling to?

Prophecy was given to us by God so that we would know that what He says is true and that He can ALWAYS be trusted 100% of the time. It's also given to us as a warning so that we may know when our time here is short. It's God's attempt to not only save us, but to save others since the logical conclusion is that once you've recognized your need for forgiveness and a Savior you will want to tell others who are in dire need about their need for Him.

As previously mentioned, there are natural laws to everything in existence. So, just as the law of gravity states that what goes up must come down, God's law says that without seeking forgiveness from our sins, and accepting the free gift of salvation that's available to us, we will be sent to Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity as that's the result and how this law will be fulfilled UNLESS WE PLACE OUR FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST as the One who took our place by sacrificing Himself to atone for our sins. It's as simple (and frightening) as that.

What will you do with this information now that you've been given the knowledge of everlasting life? If you think that it's mere coincidence that you are here reading this right now you're wrong. Christians don't believe in coincidence, chance, or luck. Everything happens for a reason. Everything. Whether we want to acknowledge that fact is immaterial. It is what it is.

Perhaps God is trying to get your attention - again - because all the other times He's reached out to you on a personal and intimate level you didn't have the eyes to see or the ears to hear Him. Open your eyes today! Open you ears today! Don't put off until tomorrow what you can easily take care of today. Why wait? If you died tomorrow are you certain of where you would spend eternity? If you hesitated for even a moment in answering that question than you need Jesus Christ. The good news is that you can know with absolute certainty what would happen if you were to die today, but you need to first acknowledge your sins and recognize your need for forgiveness and salvation.

God loves you so much that He doesn't want to see you end up in that fiery pit and this is His way of trying to get you to see that you have a "Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free-Card" that He's offering to you free of charge.

Will you accept His free gift or go about your own business like so many times before? The choice is yours.

Welcome to the family of Jesus Christ! I look forward to meeting you one day in Heaven!

SOURCE: Look Up Fellowship / www.lookupfellowship.com (http://www.lookupfellowship.com)

*Every fact, quote, and/or article referenced in the above piece is sourced with links, pictures, charts, and video in the original column at this website.

mikebr
Nov 10th 2008, 10:21 PM
Do you believe that the Great Commandment is to love God? Is this your best reason to love Him?

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 11th 2008, 11:34 AM
Mikebr...you are out from the topic...it's about the lake of fire..;)

Firstfruits
Nov 11th 2008, 11:59 AM
With regards to what you have said concerning death the bible tells us that the lake of fire is the second death.

Death clearly does not mean "eternal life" in the horrifying torments of an eternal "hell." The author of this pagan deception is none other than the father of lies - Satan the Devil (John 8:44)!

Rev 2:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Those that go to Gehenna/Hell will be eternaly in the second death.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

mikebr
Nov 11th 2008, 12:48 PM
Mikebr...you are out from the topic...it's about the lake of fire..;)

I was simply asking a question about "the lake of fire."

John146
Nov 11th 2008, 08:21 PM
People don't like to hear about Hell, but I'm here to tell you that if Jesus is not your Lord and Savior then you are on your way to Hell. For those of you who know that Hell exists (trust me, the Bible says it's a real place and the greatest deception that Satan ever achieved was convincing the world that he and Hell didn't exist), you will be upset at this bad news.

You may think that I'm all "gloom-and-doom." Tell me this...If your house were on fire, would you want me to let you know? Of course you would! You'd probably thank me for telling you. Well, if you go to Hell, you will be the one on fire. I'm just trying to help.

So, today I want to spend a little time examing the Lake of Fire. What does God and the Bible say about it? Specifically what is it exactly? What is its purpose? Who is it for? And how does all of this relate to prophecy?

Let's take a look at what the Bible says. Here are a few scriptures that deal with Hell and the Lake of Fire (at the final judgment, Hell, death and those not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire):

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment) - "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Revelation 14:11 - "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night..."

Revelation 20:12,15 - "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Matthew 10:28 - "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Luke 12:5 - "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

Matthew 18:8,9 - "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

Matthew 25:46 - "And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - "Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

Isaiah 66:24 - "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh."

Mark 9:44 (speaking of Hell) - "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Jude 7 - "Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Matthew 22:13 - "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-42 - "The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Revelation 21:8 - "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Psalm 9:17 - "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."

Isaiah 14:99-11,15 (referring to Lucifer) - "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

Daniel 12:2 - "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Psalm 37:20 also shows the ultimate fate of the wicked will be destruction by fire. The "hell fire" that the Bible speaks of will be thousands of degrees hotter than the imaginary "hell fire" of most preachers - which is only hot enough to torment. The biblical "hell fire" will totally consume the disobedient! Notice also that it is God who will burn the wicked up - not Satan or his demons like most think thanks to cartoons, television and film.

The Bible plainly shows that those who have known God's truth and still refuse to obey it, or willfully disobey, will reap the wages of sin - eternal death (Romans 6:23)! This scripture means what it says. The attempts of many theologians to "explain away" death and to "interpret" it as mere "separation from God" cannot be reconciled with Scripture. Death clearly does not mean "eternal life" in the horrifying torments of an eternal "hell." The author of this pagan deception is none other than the father of lies - Satan the Devil (John 8:44)!

Therefore, it is not unreasonable that we should fear God. Jesus Christ Himself says that we are to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Hell. Why? He is the only One who can revoke the judgment by fire. The wages of sin is death by fire. If we want to escape this punishment, we can see that it is closely connected to whether or not we actually fear God.

Surely, this is a frightening place we don't even want to visit - even for a single moment. So why would we want to risk spending eternity in a place like this is we can do something about it? I'm sure that there are some people reading this who probably agree that this is a place they definitely want to avoid, but they'll say something about putting off a decision like that until a later date and time. Friends, you could die tomorrow and if you did before you made a decision for Christ you're lost for good! Don't take that chance!

Speaking of "chance" did you know that us Christians don't believe in mere "chance" or "luck" and instead know that EVERYTHING happens for a reason according to God's own perfect will as well as His own perfect timing? Now, I ask you to consider if knowing that makes you feel like you're here reading this now by "chance" or, do you think that perhaps God led you here and He's hoping to FINALLY get your attention so that He can call you His once and for all and save you from eternal punishment? Just think about that for a moment.

When people ask me why they should even study prophecy let alone care about any of it if it means the entire world is going to come to a catastrophic end, I try to tell them that they need to look at things at a personal level. To take an attitude of "there's no hope!" and simply throw your hands up in the air and shrug your shoulders is not only irresponsible, but it will be the biggest mistake of your life. I cannot stress that enough.

Think of it this way...Would you jump out of an airplane without a parachute? Of course not! Then why in the world would you treat your eternal future with such carelessness when the "parachute" you need is Jesus Christ - a free gift that you simply need to reach out and cling to?

Prophecy was given to us by God so that we would know that what He says is true and that He can ALWAYS be trusted 100% of the time. It's also given to us as a warning so that we may know when our time here is short. It's God's attempt to not only save us, but to save others since the logical conclusion is that once you've recognized your need for forgiveness and a Savior you will want to tell others who are in dire need about their need for Him.

As previously mentioned, there are natural laws to everything in existence. So, just as the law of gravity states that what goes up must come down, God's law says that without seeking forgiveness from our sins, and accepting the free gift of salvation that's available to us, we will be sent to Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity as that's the result and how this law will be fulfilled UNLESS WE PLACE OUR FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST as the One who took our place by sacrificing Himself to atone for our sins. It's as simple (and frightening) as that.

What will you do with this information now that you've been given the knowledge of everlasting life? If you think that it's mere coincidence that you are here reading this right now you're wrong. Christians don't believe in coincidence, chance, or luck. Everything happens for a reason. Everything. Whether we want to acknowledge that fact is immaterial. It is what it is.

Perhaps God is trying to get your attention - again - because all the other times He's reached out to you on a personal and intimate level you didn't have the eyes to see or the ears to hear Him. Open your eyes today! Open you ears today! Don't put off until tomorrow what you can easily take care of today. Why wait? If you died tomorrow are you certain of where you would spend eternity? If you hesitated for even a moment in answering that question than you need Jesus Christ. The good news is that you can know with absolute certainty what would happen if you were to die today, but you need to first acknowledge your sins and recognize your need for forgiveness and salvation.

God loves you so much that He doesn't want to see you end up in that fiery pit and this is His way of trying to get you to see that you have a "Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free-Card" that He's offering to you free of charge.

Will you accept His free gift or go about your own business like so many times before? The choice is yours.

Welcome to the family of Jesus Christ! I look forward to meeting you one day in Heaven!

SOURCE: Look Up Fellowship / www.lookupfellowship.com (http://www.lookupfellowship.com)

*Every fact, quote, and/or article referenced in the above piece is sourced with links, pictures, charts, and video in the original column at this website.Many people are already resigned to there being nothing beyond this life so why would your message have any impact on them? You are teaching a lie. Everlasting punishment means exactly that. Punishment that never ends. Eternal torment means exactly that. Torment that never ends. Those who are in the lake of fire will never rest day nor night (Rev 14:11). If what you were saying was true, they would be resting forever.

Now, if people were convinced that if they reject Christ then they would be punished for eternity then that will make them take notice! But if they are told by people like you that they are going to cease to exist then that is what they already believe, anyway, so your message would not mean anything to them.

Firstfruits
Nov 11th 2008, 08:38 PM
Many people are already resigned to there being nothing beyond this life so why would your message have any impact on them? You are teaching a lie. Everlasting punishment means exactly that. Punishment that never ends. Eternal torment means exactly that. Torment that never ends. Those who are in the lake of fire will never rest day nor night (Rev 14:11). If what you were saying was true, they would be resting forever.

Now, if people were convinced that if they reject Christ then they would be punished for eternity then that will make them take notice! But if they are told by people like you that they are going to cease to exist then that is what they already believe, anyway, so your message would not mean anything to them.

From a Christian point of view, If The Lake of Fire is not as it is written that it will be, then why would we need salvation, since we are all going to go to heaven or not going to exist after we die!!:hmm:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
Nov 11th 2008, 09:30 PM
From a Christian point of view, If The Lake of Fire is not as it is written that it will be, then why would we need salvation, since we are all going to go to heaven or not going to exist after we die!!:hmm:

God bless you!

FirstfruitsI don't quite follow you here, but one more point I'd like to make is that it's described as an everlasting place, so if people just ceased to exist then why would the lake of fire even exist? It was prepared originally for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41). Why would a place be prepared for beings that would supposedly just cease to exist? That would make no sense.

Emanate
Nov 11th 2008, 09:36 PM
From a Christian point of view, If The Lake of Fire is not as it is written that it will be, then why would we need salvation, since we are all going to go to heaven or not going to exist after we die!!:hmm:

God bless you!

Firstfruits


You would rather not exist than have eternal life in Messiah?

chad
Nov 11th 2008, 11:19 PM
There are some apocrypha books that mention the lake of fire. They are not included in the cannon. Also Pauls vision of third heaven also mentions this, but it is also not included in the cannon.


Chad. :rolleyes:

[quote=mikebr;1863070]I was simply asking a question about "the lake of fire."

mikebr
Nov 11th 2008, 11:25 PM
Anywhere from 0.82 to 1.64 people are going to hell each second! This translates into 25,941,000 to 51,882,000 people going to hell every year!

http://www.uark.edu/~cdm/answers/articles/deathrate.htm

mikebr
Nov 11th 2008, 11:27 PM
There are some apocrypha book that mention the lake of fire. They are not included in the cannon. Also Pauls vision of third heaven also mentions this, but it is also not included in the cannon.


Chad. :rolleyes:

[quote=mikebr;1863070]I was simply asking a question about "the lake of fire."

Are you suggesting that I was being untruthful?;)

chad
Nov 11th 2008, 11:33 PM
Nope, just letting people know there are other sources which speak about the lake of fire that are not included in the cannon.

Hope this helps,


Chad. :rolleyes:



Are you suggesting that I was being untruthful?;)[/quote]

chad
Nov 12th 2008, 06:11 AM
Here is some information from Wikipedia.

Hell in Christian Beliefs.

Hell, in Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) beliefs, is a place or a state in which the souls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul) of the unsaved will suffer the consequences of sin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin).

The Christian doctrine of hell derives from the teaching of the New Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament), where hell is typically described using the Greek words Gehenna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna) or Tartarus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus).

Unlike Hades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades_in_Christianity), Sheol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol), or "purgatory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory)" it is eternal, and those damned to hell are without hope. In the New Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament), it is described as the place or state of punishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment) after death or last judgment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_judgment) for those who have rejected Jesus.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-0) In many classical and popular depictions it is also the abode of the devil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan) and of evil spirits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirits).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-1)

Hell is generally defined as the eternal fate of unrepentant sinners after this life.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-2) Hell's character is inferred from biblical teaching, which has often been understood over-literally.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-3)

Souls are said to pass into hell by God's irrevocable judgment, either immediately after death (particular judgment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particular_judgment)) or in the general judgment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_judgment).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-4)

Modern theologians generally describe hell as the logical consequence of the soul using its free will to reject the will of God.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-5) It is considered compatible with God's justice and mercy because God will not interfere with the soul's free choice.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-6)

In some older English translations of the Bible (such as the KJV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KJV)), the word "hell" is used to translate certain words such as sheol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol) (Hebrew) and hades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades) (Greek). These words do not typically refer to the place of eternal punishment, but to the underworld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underworld) or temporary abode of the dead.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-7)







Hell in the New Testament.


The New Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament) depicts "hell", the place of eternal punishment, in a variety of ways. The most common term used for "hell" in the original Greek is γεεννα (gehenna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna)), a direct loan of Hebrew ge-hinnom. The term is however found almost exclusively in the synoptic gospels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_gospels).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-NDBThell-12)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-13)

Gehenna is most frequently described as a place of fiery torment (eg. Matthew 5:22, 18:8-9; Mark 9:43-49) although other imagery is also used such as darkness and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (eg. Matthew 8:12; 22:13).[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-NDBThell-12)

Besides this teaching in the synoptic gospels, the concept of hell is found in other parts of the NT although the term gehenna is not used. The Johannine writings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannine_literature) refer to the destiny of the wicked in terms of "perishing", "death" and "condemnation" or "judgment". St. Paul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle) speaks of "wrath" and "everlasting destruction" (cf. Romans 2:7-9; 2 Thessalonians 1:9), while the general epistles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_epistles) use a range of terms and images including "raging fire" (Hebrews 10:27), "destruction" (2 Peter 3:7), "eternal fire" (Jude 7) and "blackest darkness" (Jude 13). The book of Revelation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation) contains the image of a "lake of fire" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_of_Fire) and "burning sulphur" where the reprobate will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever"(eg. Revelation 20:10).[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-Acute-14)

The New Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament) also uses the Greek word hades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades), usually to refer to the temporary abode of the dead (eg. Acts 2:31; Revelation 20:13).[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-NBDsheol-9) Only one passage describes hades as a place of torment, the parable of Lazarus and Dives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_and_Dives) (Luke 16:19-31 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Luke&verse=16:19-31&src=NIV)).

Jesus here depicts a wicked man suffering fiery torment in hades, which is contrasted with the bosom of Abraham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham), and explains that it is impossible to cross over from one location to the other. Some scholars believe that this parable reflects the intertestamental (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intertestamental) Jewish view of hades (or sheol) as containing separate divisions for the wicked and righteous.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-Acute-14)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-NBDsheol-9) In Revelation 20:13-14 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Revelation&verse=20:13-14&src=NIV) hades is itself thrown into the "lake of fire" after being emptied of the dead.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_in_Christian_beliefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_in_Christian_beliefs)


Chad :rolleyes:

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2008, 08:40 AM
I don't quite follow you here, but one more point I'd like to make is that it's described as an everlasting place, so if people just ceased to exist then why would the lake of fire even exist? It was prepared originally for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41). Why would a place be prepared for beings that would supposedly just cease to exist? That would make no sense.

I agree with you, I was referring to the views that I have seen here.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2008, 08:41 AM
You would rather not exist than have eternal life in Messiah?

As I said to John 146,

I was referring to the views I have seen here on this thread.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Lamplighter
Nov 12th 2008, 10:47 PM
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting(aionios) fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting(aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal(aionios).


In Matt 25 verse 46 the Greek word (aionios) is used for everlasting and eternal.






αἰώνιος

Transliteration

aiōnios

Pronunciation

ī-ō'-nē-os






Outline of Biblical Usage


1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


So, if life with Christ is eternal, so is the punishment for those without Christ. And since we know Christ is not a liar, we can rest assured that the punishment for the wicked is eternal(aionios).

songladyjenn
Nov 14th 2008, 06:14 PM
Here are some articles from bible.org on this:

The Eternal Punishment of the Lost (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=919)

Hell: Spiritual or Physical or Both? (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=405)

What the Bible Says About Hell (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400)


From the last article:


Key Facts About Eternity

(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#); Matthew 25:46 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#); John 5:28 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#); Revelation 20:14,15 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#)).
(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny (Hebrews 9:27 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#)).
(3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them (John 3:16, 36 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#), etc.).


Key Passages About Hell

(1) Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons (Matthew 25:41 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#); Revelation 20:10 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#)).
(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#); Revelation 20:11-15 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#); 21:8).
(3) Hell is conscious torment.


Matthew 13:50 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#) “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Mark 9:48 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#) “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Revelation 14:10 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#) “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”

(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.


Revelation 14:11 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#) “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
Revelation 20:14 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#) “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:15 (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400#) “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”

To read the full thing click the last link :)

Hope these help.

threebigrocks
Nov 14th 2008, 07:10 PM
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting(aionios) fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting(aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal(aionios).


In Matt 25 verse 46 the Greek word (aionios) is used for everlasting and eternal.






αἰώνιος

Transliteration

aiōnios

Pronunciation

ī-ō'-nē-os






Outline of Biblical Usage


1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


So, if life with Christ is eternal, so is the punishment for those without Christ. And since we know Christ is not a liar, we can rest assured that the punishment for the wicked is eternal(aionios).

So it says what it says. ;) That I can agree with!

Firstfruits
Nov 14th 2008, 07:26 PM
So it says what it says. ;) That I can agree with!

If you can understand that then you will also understand this, taken from Isaiah 66:22-24.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

legoman
Nov 15th 2008, 12:06 AM
Firstfruits, and all,

Do you think the Lake of Fire is physical literal fire?

I believe it is symbolic and spiritual.

Everything else in Revelations is symbolic, so why wouldn't the Lake of Fire be symbolic as well?

We know from chapter 1 that the entire book of revelations is "signified".

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

"Signified" means it is "signed" or is in symbols.

What are your thoughts?

Legoman

mikebr
Nov 15th 2008, 01:57 AM
Firstfruits, and all,

Do you think the Lake of Fire is physical literal fire?

I believe it is symbolic and spiritual.

Everything else in Revelations is symbolic, so why wouldn't the Lake of Fire be symbolic as well?

We know from chapter 1 that the entire book of revelations is "signified".

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

"Signified" means it is "signed" or is in symbols.

What are your thoughts?

Legoman

Good question Legoman, I've asked a similar question around these parts before (Which parts of the Revelation is to be taken literal and which parts are symbolic?) and no one really seems to know where one leaves off and the other takes up?

I agree with you that it is symbolic.

Firstfruits
Nov 15th 2008, 12:57 PM
Firstfruits, and all,

Do you think the Lake of Fire is physical literal fire?

I believe it is symbolic and spiritual.

Everything else in Revelations is symbolic, so why wouldn't the Lake of Fire be symbolic as well?

We know from chapter 1 that the entire book of revelations is "signified".

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

"Signified" means it is "signed" or is in symbols.

What are your thoughts?

Legoman

According to the following scriptures what symbol would the lake of fire represent?

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 15th 2008, 01:01 PM
Good question Legoman, I've asked a similar question around these parts before (Which parts of the Revelation is to be taken literal and which parts are symbolic?) and no one really seems to know where one leaves off and the other takes up?

I agree with you that it is symbolic.

Is punishment or God wrath whatever it is going to be regarding the lake of fire something to be lessened because of the unknown?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

legoman
Nov 15th 2008, 01:11 PM
According to the following scriptures what symbol would the lake of fire represent?

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Hi FF,

The brimstone probably has spiritual or symbolic meaning as well. And I'm not saying those who are thrown into it won't be tormented, it just won't be with physical fire.

Verse 14 is kind of the giveaway. If it is a literal fire, how can "death", and "hell" be thrown into it? How could physical fire harm a concept or state? How can you even throw "death" and "hell" into anything unless even the "throwing" itself is symbolic? This is just a symbol meaning there is no more death and no more hell. They are both destroyed by whatever this spiritual fire is.

Legoman

Firstfruits
Nov 15th 2008, 01:16 PM
Hi FF,

The brimstone probably has spiritual or symbolic meaning as well. And I'm not saying those who are thrown into it won't be tormented, it just won't be with physical fire.

Verse 14 is kind of the giveaway. If it is a literal fire, how can "death", and "hell" be thrown into it? How could physical fire harm a concept or state? How can you even throw "death" and "hell" into anything unless even the "throwing" itself is symbolic? This is just a symbol meaning there is no more death and no more hell. They are both destroyed by whatever this spiritual fire is.

Legoman

Would not any thing we say it is, except for that which is written, be an assumption?

Would that not be adding to or taking away from that which is written?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

legoman
Nov 15th 2008, 01:45 PM
Would not any thing we say it is, except for that which is written, be an assumption?

Would that not be adding to or taking away from that which is written?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Well I don't think I was adding or taking away from that which is written.

We know back in chapter 1 verse 1 that this revelation given to John is signified. This means the whole revelation, doesn't it? From chapter 1 to chapter 22! Remember when this was written there would have been no chapter marks separating the text. I believe the chapter/verse numbering was added later to simplify finding things in the text. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Anyway, I take it to read that all chapters from 1 to 22 are "signified" ie. it is written in symbolic and metaphoric terms.

But back to verse 14. If, as you believe, the lake of fire is literal physical fire, how does one literally throw "death" into fire? What would that even do to death? How can physical fire do anything to an abstract concept such as death? It must be symbolic.

Legoman

divaD
Nov 15th 2008, 02:51 PM
What is it with folks who believe that our God is a torturous evil being? No wonder so many people are turned off by Christianity. God is a just God, He's not an evil God that would literally torture humans forever in the lake of fire.

I realize that many of you believe that you understand the Bible with great clarity, but your misunderstanding of the lake of fire says otherwise. Take Revelation 14:10-11 for instance. Anyone that actually takes the time to read these verses in context, would know that this has absolutely nothing to do with the lake of fire in Rev 20, that this torment is because of the bowl judgments, and is only happening to those that worship the beast and it's image. Where do they worship the beast and it's image? On this very earth. Where is the wrath of God poured out? On this very earth. The wrath of God is the torment that these have no rest day nor night from. Day and night signifies earthly time. Day and night was created by God during the six days of creation. It was made for man, not for eternity. Eternity has always existed. There is no day and night in eternity.

Revelation 20:14 tells us exactly what the lake of fire symbolizes for humans...it's the 2nd death. How much clearer can it be? This is what Christ saves us from...the 2nd death. Those that make the 1st resurrection, the 2nd death has no power over them. This simply means that because of Christ, they can never again die(this would be the 2nd death), but they will live forever. The rest will be dead forever, as in they will cease to be alive. It doen't take a rocket scientist to figure out that death is the exact opposite of life.

Let's be honest here. How many of you that actually believe that God will literally torture humans forever in a lake of fire, how many of you are spending every waking moment making sure, by pleading with loved ones that they don't end up there? You should all be down on your hands and knees, tearfully begging your loved ones to accept Christ in order that they don't end up in the lake of fire being tortured forever, if you indeed believe this to be the fate of the lost. I'd be willing to bet that none of you are doing this. Let's face it, not all of our loved ones are going to make it into the kingdom of heaven. So, if you believe that God is going to torture some of your loved ones forever in a lake of fire, then what are some of you doing on the internet wasting precous time discussing doctrines, when you should be down on your hands and knees tearfully begging your loved ones not to end up in the lake of fire being tortured forever? This tells me one of two things, either you don't really believe that God will torture your loved ones forever, or if you do, you really don't care if any of your loved ones end up there, just as long as you don't, that's what really counts, otherwise you wouldn't be able to sleep at the thought of any of your loved oned being tortured forever. I'm sorry if my post offends anyone, but sometimes the truth does just that. But the truth is, by claiming that God is a torturous evil being, well I feel offended by that, and I'm sure God does as well. God is a just God, and a fair God. He will only do what is fair and just. Try reading the Bible with your hearts. That's what it's all about. That's how truth is found.


Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Instead of going to verse 41 and 46, then building a doctrine around those 2 verses, try also reading what is between those 2 verses. That's the msg this passage is putting forth. If you still don't get it, try reading this passage until the truth of it sinks in. And you can't do that without reading the rest of this chapter, nor by ignoring verses 42-45, because you choose to make a doctrine out of verse 41 and 46, thus missing the intent of the msg, because you're only focusing on what happens to some, but not why it happens to some.

Firstfruits
Nov 15th 2008, 03:21 PM
What is it with folks who believe that our God is a torturous evil being? No wonder so many people are turned off by Christianity. God is a just God, He's not an evil God that would literally torture humans forever in the lake of fire.

I realize that many of you believe that you understand the Bible with great clarity, but your misunderstanding of the lake of fire says otherwise. Take Revelation 14:10-11 for instance. Anyone that actually takes the time to read these verses in context, would know that this has absolutely nothing to do with the lake of fire in Rev 20, that this torment is because of the bowl judgments, and is only happening to those that worship the beast and it's image. Where do they worship the beast and it's image? On this very earth. Where is the wrath of God poured out? On this very earth. The wrath of God is the torment that these have no rest day nor night from. Day and night signifies earthly time. Day and night was created by God during the six days of creation. It was made for man, not for eternity. Eternity has always existed. There is no day and night in eternity.

Revelation 20:14 tells us exactly what the lake of fire symbolizes for humans...it's the 2nd death. How much clearer can it be? This is what Christ saves us from...the 2nd death. Those that make the 1st resurrection, the 2nd death has no power over them. This simply means that because of Christ, they can never again die(this would be the 2nd death), but they will live forever. The rest will be dead forever, as in they will cease to be alive. It doen't take a rocket scientist to figure out that death is the exact opposite of life.

Let's be honest here. How many of you that actually believe that God will literally torture humans forever in a lake of fire, how many of you are spending every waking moment making sure, by pleading with loved ones that they don't end up there? You should all be down on your hands and knees, tearfully begging your loved ones to accept Christ in order that they don't end up in the lake of fire being tortured forever, if you indeed believe this to be the fate of the lost. I'd be willing to bet that none of you are doing this. Let's face it, not all of our loved ones are going to make it into the kingdom of heaven. So, if you believe that God is going to torture some of your loved ones forever in a lake of fire, then what are some of you doing on the internet wasting precous time discussing doctrines, when you should be down on your hands and knees tearfully begging your loved ones not to end up in the lake of fire being tortured forever? This tells me one of two things, either you don't really believe that God will torture your loved ones forever, or if you do, you really don't care if any of your loved ones end up there, just as long as you don't, that's what really counts, otherwise you wouldn't be able to sleep at the thought of any of your loved oned being tortured forever. I'm sorry if my post offends anyone, but sometimes the truth does just that. But the truth is, by claiming that God is a torturous evil being, well I feel offended by that, and I'm sure God does as well. God is a just God, and a fair God. He will only do what is fair and just. Try reading the Bible with your hearts. That's what it's all about. That's how truth is found.


Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Instead of going to verse 41 and 46, then building a doctrine around those 2 verses, try also reading what is between those 2 verses. That's the msg this passage is putting forth. If you still don't get it, try reading this passage until the truth of it sinks in. And you can't do that without reading the rest of this chapter, nor by ignoring verses 42-45, because you choose to make a doctrine out of verse 41 and 46, thus missing the intent of the msg, because you're only focusing on what happens to some, but not why it happens to some.

So do you believe that whether or not you are a believer you will be allowed to enter Heaven?

Rev 21:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Will righteousness and unrighteousness dwell together in the kingdom of God?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 15th 2008, 03:25 PM
Well I don't think I was adding or taking away from that which is written.

We know back in chapter 1 verse 1 that this revelation given to John is signified. This means the whole revelation, doesn't it? From chapter 1 to chapter 22! Remember when this was written there would have been no chapter marks separating the text. I believe the chapter/verse numbering was added later to simplify finding things in the text. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Anyway, I take it to read that all chapters from 1 to 22 are "signified" ie. it is written in symbolic and metaphoric terms.

But back to verse 14. If, as you believe, the lake of fire is literal physical fire, how does one literally throw "death" into fire? What would that even do to death? How can physical fire do anything to an abstract concept such as death? It must be symbolic.

Legoman

Since Jesus said it will be so, I believe with God that whatsoever He has decreed said be. With God all things are possible.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

legoman
Nov 15th 2008, 03:30 PM
Since Jesus said it will be so, I believe with God that whatsoever He has decreed said be. With God all things are possible.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Hi Firstfruits,

So do you believe Rev 1:1 which says the whole revelation is signified? That is the words of Jesus as well you know.

Legoman

legoman
Nov 15th 2008, 03:35 PM
What is it with folks who believe that our God is a torturous evil being? No wonder so many people are turned off by Christianity. God is a just God, He's not an evil God that would literally torture humans forever in the lake of fire.

I realize that many of you believe that you understand the Bible with great clarity, but your misunderstanding of the lake of fire says otherwise. Take Revelation 14:10-11 for instance. Anyone that actually takes the time to read these verses in context, would know that this has absolutely nothing to do with the lake of fire in Rev 20, that this torment is because of the bowl judgments, and is only happening to those that worship the beast and it's image. Where do they worship the beast and it's image? On this very earth. Where is the wrath of God poured out? On this very earth. The wrath of God is the torment that these have no rest day nor night from. Day and night signifies earthly time. Day and night was created by God during the six days of creation. It was made for man, not for eternity. Eternity has always existed. There is no day and night in eternity.

Revelation 20:14 tells us exactly what the lake of fire symbolizes for humans...it's the 2nd death. How much clearer can it be? This is what Christ saves us from...the 2nd death. Those that make the 1st resurrection, the 2nd death has no power over them. This simply means that because of Christ, they can never again die(this would be the 2nd death), but they will live forever. The rest will be dead forever, as in they will cease to be alive. It doen't take a rocket scientist to figure out that death is the exact opposite of life.

Let's be honest here. How many of you that actually believe that God will literally torture humans forever in a lake of fire, how many of you are spending every waking moment making sure, by pleading with loved ones that they don't end up there? You should all be down on your hands and knees, tearfully begging your loved ones to accept Christ in order that they don't end up in the lake of fire being tortured forever, if you indeed believe this to be the fate of the lost. I'd be willing to bet that none of you are doing this. Let's face it, not all of our loved ones are going to make it into the kingdom of heaven. So, if you believe that God is going to torture some of your loved ones forever in a lake of fire, then what are some of you doing on the internet wasting precous time discussing doctrines, when you should be down on your hands and knees tearfully begging your loved ones not to end up in the lake of fire being tortured forever? This tells me one of two things, either you don't really believe that God will torture your loved ones forever, or if you do, you really don't care if any of your loved ones end up there, just as long as you don't, that's what really counts, otherwise you wouldn't be able to sleep at the thought of any of your loved oned being tortured forever. I'm sorry if my post offends anyone, but sometimes the truth does just that. But the truth is, by claiming that God is a torturous evil being, well I feel offended by that, and I'm sure God does as well. God is a just God, and a fair God. He will only do what is fair and just. Try reading the Bible with your hearts. That's what it's all about. That's how truth is found.


Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Instead of going to verse 41 and 46, then building a doctrine around those 2 verses, try also reading what is between those 2 verses. That's the msg this passage is putting forth. If you still don't get it, try reading this passage until the truth of it sinks in. And you can't do that without reading the rest of this chapter, nor by ignoring verses 42-45, because you choose to make a doctrine out of verse 41 and 46, thus missing the intent of the msg, because you're only focusing on what happens to some, but not why it happens to some.

Good post divaD.

While I don't 100% agree with your conclusions, you do raise some good points.

1. Is God all-loving? In fact he is the very definition of love.

2. How is it loving for billions to be tortured in physical fire forever?

3. If it is true that anyone could end up in this eternal fire, why aren't we shouting it in the streets, trying to warn anyone and everyone, especially lost family members, of this awful fate?

4. If it is true, why weren't people in the old testament given a better warning? Was Cain told he would be tormented forever in fire when he murdered his brother?

5. Isn't the wages of sin death?

I'm not posting this to promote any particular doctrine. They are valid questions that must be answered to assure our beliefs in Christianity. And you are correct divaD, many people are turned away from Christianity because they do not see a rational answer to these questions.

Legoman

Firstfruits
Nov 15th 2008, 03:49 PM
Hi Firstfruits,

So do you believe Rev 1:1 which says the whole revelation is signified? That is the words of Jesus as well you know.

Legoman

Signified refers to the conveyance of truth by signs and symbols and refers to the visions described throughout the book. Symbols must be either interpreted from something in the context or from other scriptures.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

threebigrocks
Nov 15th 2008, 04:15 PM
If you can understand that then you will also understand this, taken from Isaiah 66:22-24.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Well, it's an eternal view point here, new heaven and new earth is after all is laid under His feet. Then we go on to eternity, our name will go on forever if we are a part of that new heaven and new earth. Plenty of scripture to back that up. And, all through Christ - the seed and His name by which we got there in the first place.

We will worship him not at any one time or during any one season or any appointed time - but forever.

And those who fit into the above - those who gain eternal life and will worship the Lord forever - will look upon the dead flesh of those who were not granted eternal life or who were the goats, the chaff, the spiritually dead because they did not beleive on the One who was sent to save them. They died in their sin, seperated from the Savior. They will be abhorred, to all flesh because of their flesh with does not die and the fire which is upon them is never put out.

Flesh. We are eternal beings with flesh after judgement. All go on eternally. Some to eternal damnation and some to eternal salvation.

Simply, again, what it says.

threebigrocks
Nov 15th 2008, 04:39 PM
Good post divaD.

While I don't 100% agree with your conclusions, you do raise some good points.

1. Is God all-loving? In fact he is the very definition of love.

2. How is it loving for billions to be tortured in physical fire forever?

3. If it is true that anyone could end up in this eternal fire, why aren't we shouting it in the streets, trying to warn anyone and everyone, especially lost family members, of this awful fate?

4. If it is true, why weren't people in the old testament given a better warning? Was Cain told he would be tormented forever in fire when he murdered his brother?

5. Isn't the wages of sin death?

I'm not posting this to promote any particular doctrine. They are valid questions that must be answered to assure our beliefs in Christianity. And you are correct divaD, many people are turned away from Christianity because they do not see a rational answer to these questions.

Legoman

If God loved even evil - wouldn't that make His love for us fairly null and void? If He loves everyone the same, then the very definition of love as we know it isn't true. Evil is the absence of love, and God hates sin. So if our repentance, obedience through Christ's righteousness is to gain us eternal life through faith how can love also allow evil that same reward of holiness? Evil isn't holy.

Good question. Why don't we take the message of salvation and the consequences of not repenting and believing in the one who saves more often? A great many do, but I believe that individually we can do better. Just because we don't see it on our own street corners or on national TV because it's so big doesn't mean the message isn't getting out.

Why weren't people warned more? Goodness, Adam and Even were Cain and Abel's parents! I'm pretty sure they filled them in on what had gone down in the garden! :rolleyes: Thing is - God knew their hearts. That is what He judged. We could take that one step further - why didn't God say to Adam and Even in the garden "Don't eat the fruit - because if you do you will burn for eternity and it won't be any fun and you will be seperated from me, and sentence all mankind, to the same fate if you don't be careful what you do." :confused Legoman, come on! God said don't do it. GOD did. That should have been enough because of the love they had in the garden to keep them from sinning against that 1 and only commandment.

Why didn't love they could see before them keep them from causing the fall of man?

Israel had plenty of guidance too. They saw how things were when they didn't follow God first and foremost, and they saw what happened when they returned to doing so. They had a few back and forth moments there, wouldn't you agree? They knew, God sent people to talk to them through the prophets. The hand of God led them out of Egypt and they still messed it up. Wouldn't you think an entire sea splitting wide open would stick in your head while a pillar of fire held back the enemy would be enough to cause one to fear, repent and never leave the narrow path? Didn't take them long either before sin and the flesh took over and they were more worried about their own hides than trusting in the Lord.

The wages of sin is death. But Christ, as a man on this earth didn't live forever through the flesh. He died too, for us. We are all destined to die from the moment we are born. Every last one of us because of our flesh. it's the flesh that holds us back because it's the flesh that leads us into sin. Until that flesh is dead, we've only got faith and sheer will to follow Christ, crucifying our own flesh and not letting it control us. THat's the old man who lived according to the flesh. We as new men live according to the Spirit - that which cannot die - ever. Only then, once the corruptable flesh we have now is gone, can Christ raise it up as incorruptable. A seed planted cannot live until it first dies.

So our faith in Christ gives us the opportunity to sow that seed to what is eternal salvation or to not accept His promise and remain in unbelief and let that seed die a second death. We let that seed die now, freely, in our flesh just as Christ did. That is love, for there is no greater thing than to lay down our life for another. That is following Christ. We do so now spiritually because we are still stuck in this flesh which will die and trade it through faith for a promise which will not allow us to suffer the second death.

divaD
Nov 15th 2008, 04:58 PM
Good post divaD.

While I don't 100% agree with your conclusions, you do raise some good points.

1. Is God all-loving? In fact he is the very definition of love.

2. How is it loving for billions to be tortured in physical fire forever?

3. If it is true that anyone could end up in this eternal fire, why aren't we shouting it in the streets, trying to warn anyone and everyone, especially lost family members, of this awful fate?

4. If it is true, why weren't people in the old testament given a better warning? Was Cain told he would be tormented forever in fire when he murdered his brother?

5. Isn't the wages of sin death?

I'm not posting this to promote any particular doctrine. They are valid questions that must be answered to assure our beliefs in Christianity. And you are correct divaD, many people are turned away from Christianity because they do not see a rational answer to these questions.

Legoman



Hi legoman. I appreciete your post. Basically what you stated was the reasons behind my post. I was just trying to make a point more than stating a position, even tho I guess I was doing both.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. Does punishing and punishment have the same meaning? Would this verse mean the same thing if it were written like this?

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishing: but the righteous into life eternal.

Since Rev 20:14 tells us that the lake of fire is the 2nd death, then wouldn't this be everlasting punishment? If a human is given a death sentence in a court of law, then executed, wouldn't this be everlasting punishment, in the sense that once this person is dead, and that they can no longer have another chance at life?

Firstfruits
Nov 15th 2008, 05:43 PM
Well, it's an eternal view point here, new heaven and new earth is after all is laid under His feet. Then we go on to eternity, our name will go on forever if we are a part of that new heaven and new earth. Plenty of scripture to back that up. And, all through Christ - the seed and His name by which we got there in the first place.

We will worship him not at any one time or during any one season or any appointed time - but forever.

And those who fit into the above - those who gain eternal life and will worship the Lord forever - will look upon the dead flesh of those who were not granted eternal life or who were the goats, the chaff, the spiritually dead because they did not beleive on the One who was sent to save them. They died in their sin, seperated from the Savior. They will be abhorred, to all flesh because of their flesh with does not die and the fire which is upon them is never put out.

Flesh. We are eternal beings with flesh after judgement. All go on eternally. Some to eternal damnation and some to eternal salvation.

Simply, again, what it says.

Thank you Threebigrocks,

I agree with you.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

legoman
Nov 15th 2008, 06:21 PM
Signified refers to the conveyance of truth by signs and symbols and refers to the visions described throughout the book. Symbols must be either interpreted from something in the context or from other scriptures.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Agreed. So we must look to other scriptures to determine what the lake of fire really is. I think we can safely say it is not a literal lake of physical fire, as the term "lake of fire" is used in no other book in the bible.

God bless you too!

Legoman

legoman
Nov 15th 2008, 06:32 PM
Flesh. We are eternal beings with flesh after judgement. All go on eternally. Some to eternal damnation and some to eternal salvation.


Just curious on this statement TBR. Do you think we will have literal flesh after the resurrection? I thought the whole idea was we would be raised incorruptible with spiritual bodies, not physical fleshly bodies.

Read all of 1 Cor 15. It seems fairly clear. Here are some specific verses:

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.


This is saying we won't have fleshly bodies, but spiritual bodies.

Legoman

Marc B
Nov 15th 2008, 07:03 PM
With regards to what you have said concerning death the bible tells us that the lake of fire is the second death.

Death clearly does not mean "eternal life" in the horrifying torments of an eternal "hell." The author of this pagan deception is none other than the father of lies - Satan the Devil (John 8:44)!

Rev 2:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Those that go to Gehenna/Hell will be eternaly in the second death.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Exactly, you can add to that

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

So where does the immortal soul theory come from?

Malachi 4
1 (http://bible.cc/malachi/4-1.htm) “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 (http://bible.cc/malachi/4-2.htm) “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 (http://bible.cc/malachi/4-3.htm) “You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

The catholic church teaches eternal living torment by the wicked and other churches also believe the same doctrine based mostly on.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Everlasting life in eternal hell fire torment is a stretch from everlasting shame and contempt.

Revelation
7 (http://bible.cc/revelation/20-7.htm) When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 (http://bible.cc/revelation/20-8.htm) and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 (http://bible.cc/revelation/20-9.htm) And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 (http://bible.cc/revelation/20-10.htm) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

It speaks of the beast, false prophet and satan. Nowhere does it say all the wicked people are tormented alive forever.


Yet for some reason some rather believe in eternal living agony than the second death you have alluded to which the Bible plainly states. :confused

Stay away from soul sleep discussions though, it is considered taboo here as I have been told. Hopefully discussing man's eternal fate isn't.

Firstfruits
Nov 15th 2008, 07:08 PM
Agreed. So we must look to other scriptures to determine what the lake of fire really is. I think we can safely say it is not a literal lake of physical fire, as the term "lake of fire" is used in no other book in the bible.

God bless you too!

Legoman

It does not say that everything is a symbol but signs and symbols, for instance things to look for before something happens.

The last thing to expect before those that are cast into the lake of fire is judgment, when the books are opened and those not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire.

Just as we believe Heaven is real then we must also accept that Gehenna is also real.

Mt 23:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Jn 5:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rom 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Mk 3:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Can those that blaspheme against the Holy Spirit ever be forgiven?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

legoman
Nov 15th 2008, 07:08 PM
If God loved even evil - wouldn't that make His love for us fairly null and void? If He loves everyone the same, then the very definition of love as we know it isn't true. Evil is the absence of love, and God hates sin. So if our repentance, obedience through Christ's righteousness is to gain us eternal life through faith how can love also allow evil that same reward of holiness? Evil isn't holy.


This seems to be a fairly hypocritical view of love. Doesn't God command us to love our enemies? By necessity, some of our enemies are probably evil. But God has still commanded us to love them. Yet God would not even hold to His own commandment to love His enemies? Unless you are suggesting it is 'loving' to let his enemies live on in eternal fire forever.

God doesn't necessarily love the 'evil', but he does love the person, who may or may not be evil.

Why would God not love everyone the same? He is no respecter of persons.



Good question. Why don't we take the message of salvation and the consequences of not repenting and believing in the one who saves more often? A great many do, but I believe that individually we can do better. Just because we don't see it on our own street corners or on national TV because it's so big doesn't mean the message isn't getting out.

Why weren't people warned more? Goodness, Adam and Even were Cain and Abel's parents! I'm pretty sure they filled them in on what had gone down in the garden! :rolleyes: Thing is - God knew their hearts. That is what He judged. We could take that one step further - why didn't God say to Adam and Even in the garden "Don't eat the fruit - because if you do you will burn for eternity and it won't be any fun and you will be seperated from me, and sentence all mankind, to the same fate if you don't be careful what you do." :confused Legoman, come on! God said don't do it. GOD did. That should have been enough because of the love they had in the garden to keep them from sinning against that 1 and only commandment.
TBR, we know what God said to Adam & Eve about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He told them when they eat of it, "you will surely die" (Gen 2:16).

Notice what he didn't say: You will surely die, and then I will bring you back to life and throw you into fire that will burn your flesh forever. Your flesh won't actually be consumed, so you will live on forever in this tormenting fire.

So why didn't God give them this warning? I have often wondered this.

And you are assuming that Adam & Eve had the willpower to not sin and resist the serpent. Quite obviously they did not have the necessary willpower to keep themselves from sinning. In fact God meant it to happen that way.



Why didn't love they could see before them keep them from causing the fall of man?
Well this is a whole separate debate, but who's to say it was even possible that Adam & Eve could have not sinned? God is sovereign with complete foreknowledge, so he had already made provision for sin with the lamb of God. Notice though he didn't scrap the plan of creation altogether. Almost as if he intended things to happen that way.

So back to divaD's question:

How is it loving and just and fair for God to watch people being tormented in fire eternally (even if the people are evil)? And what about everyone else up in heaven?

Here is a paradox: If there is no pain and suffering and no tears in heaven, how can someone in heaven be content knowing their loved one is being tormented forever?

These are tough questions.

Legoman

divaD
Nov 15th 2008, 07:42 PM
So do you believe that whether or not you are a believer you will be allowed to enter Heaven?



Will righteousness and unrighteousness dwell together in the kingdom of God?

Firstfruits


In answers to both questions, I would say no. No, I don't believe the above to be true.

Getting back to Matt 25:41 and 46 for a moment.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal

In order to correctly understand this, wouldn't we need other Scripture to define these verses?

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

Isn't this the same everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels? Doesn't verse 14 tell us this is the 2nd death?
If we view death as a seperation from God, then this would mean that everyone is seperated from God at the first death also. What about all of the believers? If death means seperation from God, then what happens to all believers at the first death? Death has to mean what it means, and that would be death. So, if the lake of fire is defined as the 2nd death, then that's what it is, death as in no longer living. How can it mean anything but that?

Yukerboy
Nov 15th 2008, 07:56 PM
Jacob God loved, but Esau God hated. God is love, yet love does hate. Love hates sin. God hates sin. If God is capable of hating one, He is capable of hating anything He so chooses.

Now, the wages of sin is death. Everyone who has sinned deserves death. It is not God lacking where a person is condemned to the second death, where they will be tormented forever and ever. That person got what he/she deserved.

I always said that I'll prove God wrong and there will be a tear in heaven when I don't see my daughter there. However, I know God is right and I am wrong. Therefore, if God judges my daughter to be condemned to hell forever, my only response will be Amen. How? I believe (not scripturally) that God will show the evil of sin for what it truly is. And during the judgement, all men will agree that those who are condemned should be condemned....and those that aren't will know they should have been too.

divaD
Nov 15th 2008, 08:08 PM
Therefore, if God judges my daughter to be condemned to hell forever, my only response
will be Amen.


That has got to be the saddest, most heart breaking thing I have ever read in these forums. If you truly believe that God would torture your daughter forever, yet willing to accept that fact, then there is not much I can say. Truly sad.

Yukerboy
Nov 15th 2008, 08:17 PM
I must accept the fact, or say that God is wrong.

God told the Israelites to kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. Either I must accept that fact, or say God is wrong.

God allowed Satan to kill Job's family just to prove a point. Sure, God gave Job a family later, but I'm thinking I would want the original. Either God was right in allowing Job's children to be killed to prove some point to Satan and I must accept that fact, or I must say God was wrong.

Somethings I don't like about what God has done or will do, but I accept. He knows better than I do.

mikebr
Nov 16th 2008, 01:01 AM
If He loves everyone the same, then the very definition of love as we know it isn't true.

Are you serious? I love all my kids the same, does this in anyway change the definition of love?

mikebr
Nov 16th 2008, 01:05 AM
My biggest problem with this whole discussion is that its our best arguement for loving God. Love me or burn?
Can't we come up with a better reason for the lost to come to Christ?

chad
Nov 16th 2008, 01:05 AM
Some definitions from Wikipedia.

Lake of Fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_of_fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_of_fire)

A lake of fire appears, in both Ancient Egyptian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt) and Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) religion, as a place of after-death punishment of the wicked.


The image was also used by Hippolytus of Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolytus_of_Rome) in about the year 200 and has continued to be used by Christians. (Saint Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170-c. 236) was one of the most prolific writers of the early Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Church). Hippolytus was born during the the second half of the 2nd century, probably in Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome))


Gehenna + Purgatory + Sheol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol)


Gehenna (also gehenom or gehinom) (Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew):גהינום) is the Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish) equivalant to the Christian Purgatory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory).

Purgatory, in the original sense, is the condition or process of purification or temporary punishment in which the souls of those who die in a state of grace are made ready for heaven, an idea that has ancient roots and is well-attested in early Christian literature, while the conception of purgatory as a geographically situated place is largely the achievement of medieval Christian piety and imagination.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory#cite_note-EB-0)


Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades), the gloomy, twilight afterlife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afterlife) of Greek mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology). The word "hades" was in fact substituted for "sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek (see Septuagint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint)). The New Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament) (written in Greek) also uses "hades" to refer to the abode of the dead.

Hades + Hell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell)
In Christian theology, the term hades refers to the abode of the dead or Sheol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol) (also Hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell)), where the dead await Judgment Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Judgment) either at peace or in torment.

legoman
Nov 16th 2008, 01:54 AM
Mk 3:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Can those that blaspheme against the Holy Spirit ever be forgiven?
Firstfruits

Just a side note on Mark 3:29 - is it in contradiction with the previous verse?

Mark 3
28 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

On the one hand verse 28 is saying ALL sins and blasphemies will be forgiven. But then on the other hand verse 29 says there is a sin that will never be forgiven.

Doesn't this seem like a blatant contradiction? What's going on here?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Legoman

Yukerboy
Nov 16th 2008, 02:33 AM
I admit I may going WAY off on a tangent here, but after reading your post, I saw the verses like I've never seen them before.


I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.


I think of men may be extremely key here.


whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven

This sin is not "of men".

Perhaps, just maybe, it is a sin that cannot be committed by man?

I am one who thought that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit had to be intertwined with taking the Mark of the Beast as anyone who does either of these cannot be forgiven or saved.

Now, I'm not so sure...

Firstfruits
Nov 16th 2008, 12:01 PM
Just a side note on Mark 3:29 - is it in contradiction with the previous verse?

Mark 3
28 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

On the one hand verse 28 is saying ALL sins and blasphemies will be forgiven. But then on the other hand verse 29 says there is a sin that will never be forgiven.

Doesn't this seem like a blatant contradiction? What's going on here?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Legoman

Unto whom are the sins that can be forgiven, including blasphemy?

Mk 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Mk 3:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Whatever you do or say against men will be forgiven, but if you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit you will not be forgiven.

There is no contradiction.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 16th 2008, 12:08 PM
I admit I may going WAY off on a tangent here, but after reading your post, I saw the verses like I've never seen them before.



I think of men may be extremely key here.



This sin is not "of men".

Perhaps, just maybe, it is a sin that cannot be committed by man?

I am one who thought that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit had to be intertwined with taking the Mark of the Beast as anyone who does either of these cannot be forgiven or saved.

Now, I'm not so sure...

The key is of men or unto men depending on your translation.

Mk 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Mk 3:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Just a note regarding those that take the mark of the beast, according to what is written they do have the chance to repent and be forgiven but the bible says;

Rev 2:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Rev 9:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 16:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Rev 16:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Nov 16th 2008, 04:35 PM
If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation

I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

According to the verses you have posted, those who take the mark will not repent. Therefore, it is impossible to take the mark and repent.

Also Revelation 16 tells of God's wrath which is referred to in the Scripture above.

Firstfruits
Nov 16th 2008, 05:55 PM
If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation

I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

According to the verses you have posted, those who take the mark will not repent. Therefore, it is impossible to take the mark and repent.

Also Revelation 16 tells of God's wrath which is referred to in the Scripture above.

Because of what is written we cannot say it is impossible for them to repent but it is clear that they will not repent, however I do understand what you mean.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

legoman
Nov 16th 2008, 07:15 PM
That has got to be the saddest, most heart breaking thing I have ever read in these forums. If you truly believe that God would torture your daughter forever, yet willing to accept that fact, then there is not much I can say. Truly sad.

Yes I would have to agree divaD. It is unfortunate many people feel this way.


I must accept the fact, or say that God is wrong.


Agreed, God cannot be wrong. But there are other possibilities here:
- you are wrong in your interpretations
- other people are wrong in their interpretations
- perhaps even the translation of the bible is wrong

Now don't get me wrong, I do believe the bible is inerrant and inspired by God. But only in the original manuscripts in greek & hebrew. All the translations we have are another story. There are many many slightly different translations. Now granted they are all pretty close, but some of them have some not so insignificant differences.




God told the Israelites to kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. Either I must accept that fact, or say God is wrong.
Agreed, we know this is a fact. But you have to understand something here. It is OK and completely acceptable if God feels the need to kill someone. For us humans, it is NOT OK and completely unacceptable to kill someone.

Why is it OK for God to kill someone and its not OK for us? Well, because He is God! He can kill, but then he can come back later and give life! He gives and takes away (or vice versa). He has the power to correct anything. We humans do not have the power.



God allowed Satan to kill Job's family just to prove a point. Sure, God gave Job a family later, but I'm thinking I would want the original. Either God was right in allowing Job's children to be killed to prove some point to Satan and I must accept that fact, or I must say God was wrong.

Somethings I don't like about what God has done or will do, but I accept. He knows better than I do.Again in the case of Job, I suppose it was for a point. Did God "allow" Satan to do what he did? Or did God "plan" for Satan to do what he did? And was it wrong?

I would suggest it was God's intention that Job go through his trials. It was not wrong. It was all good according to his plan.

The reason it was not wrong is because God has the power to correct it all later and make everything right. The reason he put Job through that trial was as a learning experience.

Job wasn't a side bet with satan, or a little science experiment on humanity. Job is the very model for every trial, experience, situation, circumstance that we (everyone) goes through! God has setup and planned all the situations and problems we "get" ourselves into. Why would God do that? Same reason he did it to Job. So we can get experience, become humble, learn what good and evil is, and hopefully triumph and become better ourselves.

Cheers,
Legoman

SpokenFor
Nov 16th 2008, 10:20 PM
The reason he put Job through that trial was as a learning experience.

Job wasn't a side bet with satan, or a little science experiment on humanity. Job is the very model for every trial, experience, situation, circumstance that we (everyone) goes through! God has setup and planned all the situations and problems we "get" ourselves into. Why would God do that? Same reason he did it to Job. So we can get experience, become humble, learn what good and evil is, and hopefully triumph and become better ourselves.


The reason God put Job through all of that was for HIS (God's) glory. God was proving to Satan that despite the trials and tribulations, Job would still praise God.

Why does God throw sinners into hell/the lake of fire for ETERNITY? Because He is just and good and it brings HIM Glory. Would an earthly judge be considered "just" and "good" if he just walked into every prison and let all the criminals go? NO! Because he is just and good, he will make sure that every criminal gets justice - exactly what they deserve. Those who refuse to repent and put their faith entirely in Jesus for their salvation will get exactly what they deserve. The punishment is much more, because God is so much more; it is infinite because He is infinite. We may think he is being "mean" or "unloving" about trivial things, but we must remember that He is holy and pure and he knows every thought and every motive.



Originally Posted by Yukerboy
Therefore, if God judges my daughter to be condemned to hell forever, my only response
will be Amen.

That has got to be the saddest, most heart breaking thing I have ever read in these forums. If you truly believe that God would torture your daughter forever, yet willing to accept that fact, then there is not much I can say. Truly sad.

DivaD: WHY would God absolutely crush is only Son if he was planning to just forgive everyone and let them into heaven later?

Yukerboy has their theology on straight. Yes..we mourn for our unsaved loved ones who die without knowing Christ and we must get on our knees and out into the street to preach the gospel to as many people as we can. But on the day of judgement, each of those we have loved will have their "goodness" and all that we love about them burn up and they will be revealed for the haters of God that they are and we shall rejoice and praise God that he shall give them justice.

It is all for HIS glory.

legoman
Nov 17th 2008, 01:45 AM
The reason God put Job through all of that was for HIS (God's) glory. God was proving to Satan that despite the trials and tribulations, Job would still praise God.


Hi SpokenFor,

We may be getting off-topic here but the story of Job is quite interesting. Yes I agree it was for God's glory - everything God does is for his glory.

But did God really need to prove anything to Satan?

Satan was like a club in God's hand that He used to bring trials and calamity to Job. Job even knew it was God, not Satan, that was ultimately trying him:

Job 23:10 "But He knows the way I take;
When He has tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

Do you agree with my assertion that all trials we face (not just Job's) are brought about in a similar way? We all go through trials and calamity. Satan brings them about. But only by the will of God. God is supreme right?

Legoman

David Taylor
Nov 17th 2008, 08:15 PM
When faithful believers are tried, they come forth as gold. (through Christ's propitated righteousness for us)

unbelievers however, remain eternally lost in their unrepentant sin.

mikebr
Jan 25th 2009, 01:07 PM
When faithful believers are tried, they come forth as gold. (through Christ's propitated righteousness for us)

unbelievers however, remain eternally lost in their unrepentant sin.


What about unfaithful believers? :hmm:

Spirit Driven
Jan 25th 2009, 02:14 PM
Many years ago before God drew me to his Son.....Doctrines like Eternal Torment put me off even wanting to know about God.

These days after being brought to the knowledge of the truth, by God I really do find the threat of Eternal Torment the most Ludicrouse threat deserving of derision.

Only the other day I was discussing with others about how much of Bible scripture would have to be deleted, so that it will not contradict itself if Jesus used the word Eternal.

We all know God never contradicts himself....we do know that error in translation will cause a group of documents compiled into a book...make that book contradict itself.

But God never contradicts himself.....there was a time when I would have enjoyed, cutting the opening posters theology to pieces.

These days however, I no longer enjoy doing that sort of thing.

I think it is ironic that those who for shadow such doom for those who do not believe demonic doctrine as they do....will have that very doom befall themselves.

The Irony of God was not lost on me there....

Grace and Peace to you all.

threebigrocks
Jan 25th 2009, 07:54 PM
What about unfaithful believers? :hmm:

Hell bound to eternal torment. Who and what we serve now is who we will serve for eternity.

Thing is - we've got Christ! Believe and follow Him, and hell won't need to be considered because God is not slack concerning his promise to us.

chad
Jan 25th 2009, 09:46 PM
I have been doing a re-study this morning on the verses related to Hell and what verses they relate to.

In the Old Testament:

She’owl:H7585

The old testament translates hell as she’owl H7585 From 7592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), include. Its accessory and inmates; grave; hell, pit.

In the New Testament:


Geenna:G1067

Hell is translated as Geenna, G1067; gheh’-en-nah of [H1516 and H2011] valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehhena (or Ge-Hinnom) a valley of Jerus., used (fig.) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment; --Hell.

(Mathew 5:22; Mt 5:29; Mt 5:30; Mt 10:28; Mt 18:9, Mt 23:15, Mt 23:33, Mk 9:43, Mk 9:45, Mk 9:47, Lk 12:5, James 3:6)

Haides:G86

Haides, hah’-dance; from G1(as a neg. particle) and G1492 prop. Unseen, i.e. “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls :-- grave, hell.

Used in (Mt 11:23, Mt 16:18, Lk 10:15, Lk 16:23; Acts 2:27, Acts 2:31; Rev 1:18; Rev 6:8; Rev 20:13; Rev 20:14)

Tartaroo:G5020

2 Peter 2:4 from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in Eternal torment:--cast down to hell)


Interestingly enough, in the OT - the word sheol is used for Hell and is the place of the dead. In the NT Geenna or Haides is used, it speaks of the fire in hell/the fire of hell that never goes out in (Mt 5:22; Mt 18:9; Mk 9:43; Mk 9:45; Mk 9:47; James 3:6; Lk 16:23)

Tartaroo used once in 2 Peter 2:4 and describes the deepest abyss of Hades - a place of eternal torment. This is where the angels are held until jugement time.



Interestingly, Mathew 10:28 describes someone who can destory the soul and body in hell. Can the soul and body be destroyed in Hell? Does anybody know who it is, that can destroy both the soul and body in hell?

(Mat 10:28 NIV) Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

mikebr
Jan 25th 2009, 11:54 PM
Hell bound to eternal torment. Who and what we serve now is who we will serve for eternity.

Thing is - we've got Christ! Believe and follow Him, and hell won't need to be considered because God is not slack concerning his promise to us.

What would be your definition of "unfaithful."

I do big guy. But what of the believer who was faithful for 40 years, whose wife was murdered or his child is terminally ill and he turns to drinking and quits going to church. Is your god going to heap hell on top of that?

I'm talking born again, Sunday school pin, singing in the choir, witnessed like a wild fire.

mikebr
Jan 25th 2009, 11:56 PM
I have been doing a re-study this morning on the verses related to Hell and what verses they relate to.

In the Old Testament:

She’owl:H7585

The old testament translates hell as she’owl H7585 From 7592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), include. Its accessory and inmates; grave; hell, pit.

In the New Testament:


Geenna:G1067

Hell is translated as Geenna, G1067; gheh’-en-nah of [H1516 and H2011] valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehhena (or Ge-Hinnom) a valley of Jerus., used (fig.) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment; --Hell.

(Mathew 5:22; Mt 5:29; Mt 5:30; Mt 10:28; Mt 18:9, Mt 23:15, Mt 23:33, Mk 9:43, Mk 9:45, Mk 9:47, Lk 12:5, James 3:6)

Haides:G86

Haides, hah’-dance; from G1(as a neg. particle) and G1492 prop. Unseen, i.e. “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls :-- grave, hell.

Used in (Mt 11:23, Mt 16:18, Lk 10:15, Lk 16:23; Acts 2:27, Acts 2:31; Rev 1:18; Rev 6:8; Rev 20:13; Rev 20:14)

Tartaroo:G5020

2 Peter 2:4 from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in Eternal torment:--cast down to hell)


Interestingly enough, in the OT - the word sheol is used for Hell and is the place of the dead. In the NT Geenna or Haides is used, it speaks of the fire in hell/the fire of hell that never goes out in (Mt 5:22; Mt 18:9; Mk 9:43; Mk 9:45; Mk 9:47; James 3:6; Lk 16:23)

Tartaroo used once in 2 Peter 2:4 and describes the deepest abyss of Hades - a place of eternal torment. This is where the angels are held until jugement time.



Interestingly, Mathew 10:28 describes someone who can destory the soul and body in hell. Can the soul and body be destroyed in Hell? Does anybody know who it is, that can destroy both the soul and body in hell?

(Mat 10:28 NIV) Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Are you aware that Gehenna was a real place as well where fires burned day and night and maggots fed on the corpses that were placed there. Do some research on the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom.

David Taylor
Jan 26th 2009, 12:43 AM
What about unfaithful believers? :hmm:

There are two groups throughout eternity.

Pick which one you think they might go in.

Mark 11:23 Jesus said, "He that is not with me is against me"

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. "

mikebr
Jan 26th 2009, 12:48 AM
There are two groups throughout eternity.

Pick which one you think they might go in.

Mark 11:23 Jesus said, "He that is not with me is against me"

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. "

I already have!:kiss:

threebigrocks
Jan 26th 2009, 01:02 AM
What would be your definition of "unfaithful."

I do big guy. But what of the believer who was faithful for 40 years, whose wife was murdered or his child is terminally ill and he turns to drinking and quits going to church. Is your god going to heap hell on top of that?

I'm talking born again, Sunday school pin, singing in the choir, witnessed like a wild fire.

Being faithful requires having faith, right? Without faith, one is faithless. Without faith in Christ - there is no sacrifice for sin.

Thing is - why did they choose the booze and turning from Him, continuing to rely on faith? What happened? Self control is indeed something that is part of walking the Christian life. Sunday school pin, choir, witness for Christ - doesn't matter. Just as those things are evidence of their faith, the drinking and dispair are evidence that they've fallen and become faithless. They need help by those, if they will accept it, who can help them correct their error and restore their strength.

If they don't get back on the wagon where they fell off, and continue on the fallen path - there is no sacrifice for their sin because they haven't sown to the spirit but to the flesh. If the flesh wins - judgment won't be a good day for that man. If the spirit wins there is redemption for them and an eternity in heaven.

It's a matter of what we sow to and which one we allow to win.

chad
Jan 26th 2009, 01:23 AM
Hi Mikebr,

Thanks, I will do some research on it

Geenna:G1067

Hell is translated as Geenna, G1067; gheh’-en-nah of [H1516 and H2011] valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehhena (or Ge-Hinnom) a valley of Jerus., used (fig.) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment; --Hell.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_Hinnom

The valley is outside the south wall of ancient Jerusalem and stretches from the foot of Mount Zion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Zion) eastward to Kidron Valley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidron_Valley).

In ancient times, children (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child) were sacrificed to the pagan god Molech in Gehenna (either a killing or a simple rite of passing through fire), a practice that was outlawed by King Josiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Josiah) (2 Kings, 23:10). Biblical commentator Rashi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi) explains that priests would bang on drums (Hebrew: tof, tupim) (Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): תופים‎) so fathers would not hear the groans of children being sacrificed. Hence the name Topheth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topheth).
Fires were kept burning and the valley became the garbage dump (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_dump) of the city. The dead bodies of criminals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime), and the carcasses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcass) of animals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal) were also thrown there.


Are you aware that Gehenna was a real place as well where fires burned day and night and maggots fed on the corpses that were placed there. Do some research on the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom.

mikebr
Jan 26th 2009, 12:29 PM
Hi Mikebr,

Thanks, I will do some research on it

Geenna:G1067

Hell is translated as Geenna, G1067; gheh’-en-nah of [H1516 and H2011] valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehhena (or Ge-Hinnom) a valley of Jerus., used (fig.) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment; --Hell.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_Hinnom

The valley is outside the south wall of ancient Jerusalem and stretches from the foot of Mount Zion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Zion) eastward to Kidron Valley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidron_Valley).

In ancient times, children (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child) were sacrificed to the pagan god Molech in Gehenna (either a killing or a simple rite of passing through fire), a practice that was outlawed by King Josiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Josiah) (2 Kings, 23:10). Biblical commentator Rashi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi) explains that priests would bang on drums (Hebrew: tof, tupim) (Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): תופים‎) so fathers would not hear the groans of children being sacrificed. Hence the name Topheth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topheth).
Fires were kept burning and the valley became the garbage dump (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_dump) of the city. The dead bodies of criminals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime), and the carcasses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcass) of animals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal) were also thrown there.


Find out what happened in 70AD. About 800,000 of the very ones that Jesus was talking to were killed and piled there and their bodies were burned. Now I keep hearing that at some point this became a term used for the lake of fire. I have never seen a biblical or historical connection. Jesus and James are the only ones to ever use the term. Paul, John, Peter, Luke.............NEVER mention it. If it was hell wouldn't it make sense to have some biblical consistency?

chad
Jan 26th 2009, 07:23 PM
Ok I will try and find out what happened. I wouldn't mind a bit of help though, maybe a web page, reference or link to where I can find the info?


Thanks


Chad :rolleyes:




Find out what happened in 70AD. About 800,000 of the very ones that Jesus was talking to were killed and piled there and their bodies were burned. Now I keep hearing that at some point this became a term used for the lake of fire. I have never seen a biblical or historical connection. Jesus and James are the only ones to ever use the term. Paul, John, Peter, Luke.............NEVER mention it. If it was hell wouldn't it make sense to have some biblical consistency?

David Taylor
Jan 26th 2009, 09:05 PM
Jesus and James are the only ones to ever use the term (Gehenna). Paul, John, Peter, Luke.............NEVER mention it. If it was hell wouldn't it make sense to have some biblical consistency?

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and James all use the term Gehenna.

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell(Gehenna)."

Mark 9:45 "And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell(Gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

Luke 12:5 "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell(Gehenna); yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

James 3:6 "And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell (Gehenna)."

That's about half of the NT writers using the term (Mat, Mrk, Luk, Jhn, Paul, Pet, Jam, & Jud) ....hardly an example of biblical inconsistency.





The other 4 NT writers simply used other terms to describe eternal Hell...


John:
Revelation 14:10 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever"

Paul:
2 Thess 2:7 "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"

Peter:
II Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Jude:
Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities."


What other NT writer is missing, that hasn't discussed the horrible destiny of the wicked in flames and torment?

Every single N.T. writer is about as clear as they can be in getting the warning out to avoid the destiny of the wicked in the place of eternal torment and suffering.

mikebr
Jan 26th 2009, 09:19 PM
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and James all use the term Gehenna.

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell(Gehenna)."

Mark 9:45 "And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell(Gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

Luke 12:5 "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell(Gehenna); yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

James 3:6 "And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell (Gehenna)."

That's about half of the NT writers using the term (Mat, Mrk, Luk, Jhn, Paul, Pet, Jam, & Jud) ....hardly an example of biblical inconsistency.





The other 4 NT writers simply used other terms to describe eternal Hell...


John:
Revelation 14:10 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever"

Paul:
2 Thess 2:7 "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"

Peter:
II Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Jude:
Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities."


What other NT writer is missing, that hasn't discussed the horrible destiny of the wicked in flames and torment?

Every single N.T. writer is about as clear as they can be in getting the warning out to avoid the destiny of the wicked in the place of eternal torment and suffering.


The greek word was only spoken by Jesus and James. Did you think I was saying that Jesus wrote a gospel. In Matthew Mark and Luke the words are credited to Jesus. Am I wrong that David. I'm not saying that others didn't discuss eternal fire. My point was and is Gehenna was a literal place with literal flames and literal worms. No one seems to want to conceed that.

Is that true?

CommanderRobey
Jan 26th 2009, 09:30 PM
In Revelation, death and hell are cast into hell before the wicked dead are cast in.

The last enemy to be destroyed is death according to God's Word.

This tells me that upon being cast into the lake of fire, death is destroyed. That means that all the wicked dead who are cast into the lake that 'burneth with fire and brimstone' will never ever die in that place. They will burn forever. No annhiliation, for the last enemy to be destroyed is death, not the wicked dead.

mikebr
Jan 26th 2009, 09:35 PM
In Revelation, death and hell are cast into hell before the wicked dead are cast in.

The last enemy to be destroyed is death according to God's Word.

This tells me that upon being cast into the lake of fire, death is destroyed. That means that all the wicked dead who are cast into the lake that 'burneth with fire and brimstone' will never ever die in that place. They will burn forever. No annhiliation, for the last enemy to be destroyed is death, not the wicked dead.


That's a new take. One I haven't heard before. Good as any I reckon.

Welcome to the boards.

CommanderRobey
Jan 26th 2009, 09:46 PM
That's a new take. One I haven't heard before. Good as any I reckon.

Welcome to the boards.

It would make no sense whatsoever to be brought out of the pits of hell only to be annihilated.

It is therefore obvious that in the lake of fire, one would burn forever. Which would line up with the phrase 'And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,'

If they have no rest for ever, how can it be said they are annihilated?

threebigrocks
Jan 26th 2009, 09:48 PM
That's a new take. One I haven't heard before. Good as any I reckon.

Welcome to the boards.

Not new, not at all. It's been in scripture ever since it was revealed to man. What Commander has mentioned - is in Revelation for starters.

The whole of scripture a doctrine makes. ;)

CommanderRobey
Jan 26th 2009, 09:56 PM
Not new, not at all. It's been in scripture ever since it was revealed to man. What Commander has mentioned - is in Revelation for starters.

The whole of scripture a doctrine makes. ;)
Right!

Revelation clearly lays before our eyes the final place of the wicked.

mikebr
Jan 26th 2009, 09:57 PM
Not new, not at all. It's been in scripture ever since it was revealed to man. What Commander has mentioned - is in Revelation for starters.

The whole of scripture a doctrine makes. ;)

The idea that death will be destroyed and therefor nothing will ever be able to die is new to me. I've never thought of it before nor have I ever heard anybody put it that way. I didn't say that it was a new revelation.;)

CommanderRobey
Jan 26th 2009, 10:06 PM
The idea that death will be destroyed and therefor nothing will ever be able to die is new to me. I've never thought of it before nor have I ever heard anybody put it that way. I didn't say that it was a new revelation.;)

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Note: The casting of death and hell into the lake of fire is the second death. Death is destroyed at this point.)

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If the last enemy to be destroyed is death as the Scripture declares, how can it be possible someone will die afterward?

RogerW
Jan 26th 2009, 10:08 PM
The greek word was only spoken by Jesus and James. Did you think I was saying that Jesus wrote a gospel. In Matthew Mark and Luke the words are credited to Jesus. Am I wrong that David. I'm not saying that others didn't discuss eternal fire. My point was and is Gehenna was a literal place with literal flames and literal worms. No one seems to want to conceed that.

Is that true?

Greetings Mike,

I agree, Gehenna or the valley of Hinnom, a valley in Jerusalem was a literal place. Christ, however, uses the word "Gehenna" in a figurative sense to describe the lake of fire. I believe there might be far less confusion if the translators had not translated every usage "hell", instead of "hades" when referencing the place of the dead, or "Gehenna" when referring to the place of everlasting torment.

1067. geenna - of Hebrew origin (1516 and 2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell.

Many Blessings,
RW

threebigrocks
Jan 26th 2009, 10:12 PM
The idea that death will be destroyed and therefor nothing will ever be able to die is new to me. I've never thought of it before nor have I ever heard anybody put it that way. I didn't say that it was a new revelation.;)

I guess I always see it as a new revelation when something I hadn't seen before. Not degrogatory, just simply something new. :)

CommanderRobey
Jan 26th 2009, 10:14 PM
The best sermon I have heard to date on hell and the lake of fire was called 'Hell Without Hell' by Jack van Impe. One can find and listen to it online by googling for it.

chad
Jan 27th 2009, 10:20 AM
Hi Roger,

What do you think of the idea that Hell is made up of different parts.

Sheol - the place where people go when they die. Names used to describe it are - the grave, the pit, the prison.

Gehenna - the place in hell where there is fire and punishment and torments.

Tartaroo - the place in hell where the angels that sinned are incarcerated until judgement time.

The interesting thing is that in the OT, it was believed that all people went to sheol when they died, and it was a place in the depths of the earth.

In the NT, it seems to be the place where hades refers to a place of torment.

There seems to be 2 different beliefs regarding the second death. 1) Final seperaration from God which involves a Spiritual death, followed by a physical death. 2) Everlasting punishment in the lake burning with fire and sulphur.

From the Holman Bible Dictionary.

DEATH, SECOND
Final separation from God; spiritual death following physical death.

Revelation describes the second death with the images of the lake of fire (20:14) and a lake burning with fire and sulphur (21:8).

The second death has no power over those who remain faithful in persecution (2:11), who are martyred (20:6), or for those whose names are written in the book of life (20:15).

Some stress everlasting punishment in literal fire. Others stress the spiritual state of separation from God. Still others interpret the second death in terms of anihilation on the basis of comparison with Matthew 10:28. The alternative is eternal life with God.



Greetings Mike,

I agree, Gehenna or the valley of Hinnom, a valley in Jerusalem was a literal place. Christ, however, uses the word "Gehenna" in a figurative sense to describe the lake of fire. I believe there might be far less confusion if the translators had not translated every usage "hell", instead of "hades" when referencing the place of the dead, or "Gehenna" when referring to the place of everlasting torment.

1067. geenna - of Hebrew origin (1516 and 2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell.

Many Blessings,
RW

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 12:26 PM
Greetings Mike,

I agree, Gehenna or the valley of Hinnom, a valley in Jerusalem was a literal place. Christ, however, uses the word "Gehenna" in a figurative sense to describe the lake of fire. I believe there might be far less confusion if the translators had not translated every usage "hell", instead of "hades" when referencing the place of the dead, or "Gehenna" when referring to the place of everlasting torment.

1067. geenna - of Hebrew origin (1516 and 2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell.

Many Blessings,
RW


Find hades in First Corinthians 15. It may surprise you.

where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'

Translated grave in the KJV. Why? Why wasn't this translated Hell. It was in Luke 16 Lazarus and Dives.

RogerW
Jan 27th 2009, 08:03 PM
Hi Roger,

What do you think of the idea that Hell is made up of different parts.

Greetings Chad,

I believe hell/grave was made up of different parts prior to the cross and resurrection of Christ. That part of hell/grave where unbelievers went, likened to torment and great heat, and that part of hell/grave where all who died in faith, before Christ came, went; the bosom of Abraham. Since Christ conquered death and the grave/hell, setting the captives free from the bondage of the grave and death, Abraham's bosom is no more. Since Christ, all who have been given eternal life and physically die in Christ go immediately to be with Him in soul/spirit essence, otherwise the life we receive in Him could not be eternal. All who die in unbelief go to hell/grave to await the resurrection in the last day, when both death and hell/grave will be cast into the lake of fire.



Sheol - the place where people go when they die. Names used to describe it are - the grave, the pit, the prison.

Sheol is the Hebrew word for the place of the dead/grave. Hades is the Greek word for the place of the dead/grave.



Gehenna - the place in hell where there is fire and punishment and torments.

Translated "hell" in the Greek, a figure or symbolizing the lake of fire, or final judgment for all who die in unbelief.



Tartaroo - the place in hell where the angels that sinned are incarcerated until judgement time.

The deepest abyss of the grave. Perhaps the place of all unbelivers, and where the rich man in the parable may have gone. Although Abraham's bosom no longer exists, this deepest abyss of the grave/hell will not be cast into the lake of fire until the final Judgment.




The interesting thing is that in the OT, it was believed that all people went to sheol when they died, and it was a place in the depths of the earth.

In the NT, it seems to be the place where hades refers to a place of torment.

There seems to be 2 different beliefs regarding the second death. 1) Final seperaration from God which involves a Spiritual death, followed by a physical death. 2) Everlasting punishment in the lake burning with fire and sulphur.

From the Holman Bible Dictionary.

DEATH, SECOND
Final separation from God; spiritual death following physical death.

Revelation describes the second death with the images of the lake of fire (20:14) and a lake burning with fire and sulphur (21:8).

The second death has no power over those who remain faithful in persecution (2:11), who are martyred (20:6), or for those whose names are written in the book of life (20:15).

Some stress everlasting punishment in literal fire. Others stress the spiritual state of separation from God. Still others interpret the second death in terms of anihilation on the basis of comparison with Matthew 10:28. The alternative is eternal life with God.

I see the second death for all who die in unbelief. They were never made spiritually alive (first resurrection/spiritual @ re-birth), so they will have part in the second death; the lake of fire. All who have had part in the first resurrection when they were born again, being made spiritually alive, will be raised to eternal life.

Many Blessings,
RW

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 27th 2009, 08:11 PM
Greetings Chad,

I believe hell/grave was made up of different parts prior to the cross and resurrection of Christ. That part of hell/grave where unbelievers went, likened to torment and great heat, and that part of hell/grave where all who died in faith, before Christ came, went; the bosom of Abraham. Since Christ conquered death and the grave/hell, setting the captives free from the bondage of the grave and death, Abraham's bosom is no more. Since Christ, all who have been given eternal life and physically die in Christ go immediately to be with Him in soul/spirit essence, otherwise the life we receive in Him could not be eternal. All who die in unbelief go to hell/grave to await the resurrection in the last day, when both death and hell/grave will be cast into the lake of fire.



Sheol is the Hebrew word for the place of the dead/grave. Hades is the Greek word for the place of the dead/grave.



Translated "hell" in the Greek, a figure or symbolizing the lake of fire, or final judgment for all who die in unbelief.



The deepest abyss of the grave. Perhaps the place of all unbelivers, and where the rich man in the parable may have gone. Although Abraham's bosom no longer exists, this deepest abyss of the grave/hell will not be cast into the lake of fire until the final Judgment.




I see the second death for all who die in unbelief. They were never made spiritually alive (first resurrection/spiritual @ re-birth), so they will have part in the second death; the lake of fire. All who have had part in the first resurrection when they were born again, being made spiritually alive, will be raised to eternal life.

Many Blessings,
RW


Thank you.. you put that in words better than I could... Well stated...

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 27th 2009, 08:14 PM
In Revelation, death and hell are cast into hell before the wicked dead are cast in.

The last enemy to be destroyed is death according to God's Word.

This tells me that upon being cast into the lake of fire, death is destroyed. That means that all the wicked dead who are cast into the lake that 'burneth with fire and brimstone' will never ever die in that place. They will burn forever. No annhiliation, for the last enemy to be destroyed is death, not the wicked dead.


Correct...... and thanks for your post..

RogerW
Jan 27th 2009, 08:14 PM
Find hades in First Corinthians 15. It may surprise you.

where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'

Translated grave in the KJV. Why? Why wasn't this translated Hell. It was in Luke 16 Lazarus and Dives.

Hi Mike,

1Co 15 is telling us that both death and the grave will be destroyed at the final Judgment. Hades can be translated "hell" or "grave", both mean the place of the dead, or grave. I think a distinction was made with Lazarus and the rich man to show that though Lazarus died physically, he was never in danger of the burning torment that will accompany the rich man in the Judgment. The rich man was buried, but Lazarus was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom.

Many Blessings,
RW

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 11:21 PM
Hi Mike,

1Co 15 is telling us that both death and the grave will be destroyed at the final Judgment. Hades can be translated "hell" or "grave", both mean the place of the dead, or grave. I think a distinction was made with Lazarus and the rich man to show that though Lazarus died physically, he was never in danger of the burning torment that will accompany the rich man in the Judgment. The rich man was buried, but Lazarus was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom.

Many Blessings,
RW

................or "Oh death where is thy sting, oh hell where is thy victory" simply would not cut it.:hmm:

chad
Jan 27th 2009, 11:31 PM
Thanks Roger,

Very well put and easy to understand. :)



Greetings Chad,

I believe hell/grave was made up of different parts prior to the cross and resurrection of Christ. That part of hell/grave where unbelievers went, likened to torment and great heat, and that part of hell/grave where all who died in faith, before Christ came, went; the bosom of Abraham. Since Christ conquered death and the grave/hell, setting the captives free from the bondage of the grave and death, Abraham's bosom is no more. Since Christ, all who have been given eternal life and physically die in Christ go immediately to be with Him in soul/spirit essence, otherwise the life we receive in Him could not be eternal. All who die in unbelief go to hell/grave to await the resurrection in the last day, when both death and hell/grave will be cast into the lake of fire.



Sheol is the Hebrew word for the place of the dead/grave. Hades is the Greek word for the place of the dead/grave.



Translated "hell" in the Greek, a figure or symbolizing the lake of fire, or final judgment for all who die in unbelief.



The deepest abyss of the grave. Perhaps the place of all unbelivers, and where the rich man in the parable may have gone. Although Abraham's bosom no longer exists, this deepest abyss of the grave/hell will not be cast into the lake of fire until the final Judgment.




I see the second death for all who die in unbelief. They were never made spiritually alive (first resurrection/spiritual @ re-birth), so they will have part in the second death; the lake of fire. All who have had part in the first resurrection when they were born again, being made spiritually alive, will be raised to eternal life.

Many Blessings,
RW