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View Full Version : The Faith of Christ and our Faith in Christ



RogerW
Nov 11th 2008, 01:38 AM
Title: THE FAITH OF CHRIST and OUR FAITH IN CHRIST

Text: Galatians 3:22-26
Date: Saturday Morning — March 8, 2008
Kingsport Sovereign Grace Ministries
Kingsport, TN
Rev. Don Fortner

Introduction: The Scriptures speak to us both about “the faith of Christ” and our “faith in Christ.”

In Galatians 3:19 Paul tells us that the law of God given at Mt. Sinai was given for a specific, designated period of time. — “It was added because of transgressions till the Seed (Christ) should come to whom the promise (the promise of God’s blessing, grace and salvation) was made.” In verse 21 the apostle assures us that the law of God given at Sinai is not in any way against, or contrary to, God’s covenant promise of salvation by Christ, and that it was never intended to produce righteousness. The law is, as Paul puts it in 2nd Corinthians 3:7, “the ministration of death.” It has nothing to do with life. It cannot produce righteousness. — “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” (Galatians 2:21).
Now, let’s read Galatians 3:22-26 together. Listen carefully.

Verse 22 — “But the scripture hath concluded all under sin.” — The whole volume of Holy Scripture and particularly the killing letter of the law of God, declares that all men, all that is in us by nature and all that is done by us, are under the power, dominion and guilt of sin. All the sons and daughters of fallen Adam are defiled, sinful and guilty.

Paul’s language is inclusive of all things relating to all men. — All the members of our bodies. — All the faculties of souls. — All the thoughts of our minds. — All the emotions of our hearts. — All the intentions of our wills. — All our choices. — All our works. — All our services to God and men. — Even all our best works of righteousness, which are but “filthy rags.” — All are sinful and polluted! The Word of God declares that we are guilty and shuts us up as prisoners under the sentence of death, without hope in ourselves. Now, watch this. “That the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” — The promise of life is the promise of eternal life and salvation, of everlasting righteousness and the never ending smile of divine approval. All included in the promise belongs to all who believe.

It is not our believing that fulfilled God’s covenant promise and brought in that blessed righteousness by which we now stand before him in life. The promise is given to all who believe. But the promise was fulfilled and comes to us “by faith of Jesus Christ.” It was Christ to whom the promise was made as our Surety in the everlasting covenant, upon condition of his obedience unto death as our Substitute. And it is Christ who obtained the promise by his faithful fulfillment of his covenant engagements as our Surety (Hebrews 10:5-14).

Verse 23 — “But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.” — What faith is Paul talking about here? Whose faith is this? Is it yours? Is it mine? The faith that came by which we were delivered from the curse of God’s holy law, by which we were justified, is “the faith of Jesus Christ” spoken of in verse 22.

It is this, “the faith of Jesus Christ,” that is revealed to us by the gospel. We are shut up to Christ, the faith that is now revealed in the gospel. Our faith in Christ is not revealed to us, it is given to us and worked in us by the mighty operations of God the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:19-20; 2:8-9; Colossians 1:12). It is Christ (“the faith of Christ”) who is revealed.

When God the Holy Spirit comes to chosen, redeemed sinners in the saving power of his omnipotent grace, he convinces them of all that Christ accomplished by his faithful obedience as our Substitute. When he reveals Christ in a person he convinces him that his sin has been put away by Christ’s atonement, that righteousness has been brought in by Christ’s obedience, and that justice has been satisfied by Christ’s blood (John 16:8-11). And the sinner, being convinced of these things, trusts Christ. Now read verse 24.

Verse 24 — “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” — Be sure to note that our translators put the words “to bring us” in italicized letters to call our attention to the fact that these words were added by them to make the sentence read more smoothly and that there are no corresponding words in the original language of the text. So verse 24 should really read, — “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster unto (or until) Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”

It was the law’s purpose, like a schoolmaster, to direct God’s elect to Christ and make sure they get to Christ. The law was our schoolmaster until Christ came and fulfilled it by his faithful obedience to it and satisfaction of it. Once that was done the schoolmaster’s service ended (Romans 10:4).

Now that the righteousness of the law has been fulfilled by Christ’s obedience in life as our Representative and the justice of the law has been fulfilled by Christ’s satisfaction in his death (Romans 4:25), we can be and are “justified by faith.” Because justification has been accomplished by Christ in the court of heaven we can now be justified in the court of our own consciences by faith in Christ.

Faith looks away from self to Christ, and looking to Christ, we see our justification fully accomplished in him and are justified by him. Trusting Christ, we receive complete, final, full justification in him and have peace with God in him “by whom we have now received the atonement” (Romans 4:25-5:12, 18).

(Romans 4:25) “Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”
(Romans 5:1-12) “Therefore being justified, by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; (4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope: (5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. (6) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. (8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (11) And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
(Romans 5:18) “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

Verse 25 — “But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” — Since faith has come, that is to say, since Christ has come, we are no longer under the law.

Verse 26 — “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.” — Obviously, just as it is in the case of justification, our faith in Christ does not cause God to adopt us as his children. That was done in eternal election (Ephesians1:3-6). Rather, our faith in Christ is the fruit and evidence of our adoption (Galatians 4:6-7) just as it is the fruit and evidence of our justification.

(Galatians 4:4-7) “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. (6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.”

Our faith in Christ is the assurance of our adoption as the children of God. Believing on the Son of God, we stand before God with the confident assurance that we are justified, accepted in Christ, the children of God, “heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ.”

“THE FAITH OF CHRIST”
The Scriptures declare that we are “justified by faith of Jesus Christ.” That means that our justification was totally accomplished by Christ, that it was accomplished outside our experience, altogether without us, by the faith (faithful obedience) of the Lord Jesus Christ as our Substitute.

Paul uses this phrase, “the faith of Christ,” SEVEN TIMES in his writings (Romans 3:22; Galatians 2:16, 20; 3:22; Ephesians 3:12; Philippians 3:9). Every time he speaks of justification accomplished for us, this is the phrase he uses. Let me show you.

(Romans 3:22) “Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”
(Galatians 2:16) “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
(Galatians 2:20) “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”
(Galatians 3:22) “But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.”
(Ephesians 3:12) “In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”
(Philippians 3:9) “And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.”

We have been conditioned to think of faith only in connection with ourselves. We believe in Christ. We trust the Son of God. “He that believeth on the Son of God hath everlasting life.” When we read in the Book of God about “the faith of Christ” we automatically think, “That must just be an odd way of saying ‘faith in Christ.’”

CORRECT TRANSLATION
That is exactly what the vast majority of the commentaries do with this phrase. They tell us, the words, “faith of Christ,” really mean “faith in Christ.” These words, “the faith of Christ,” are commonly treated as though they were a mistranslation of the Greek text; but they are not a mistranslation. I have checked everyone of them carefully. Our translation is correct. Yet, almost every modern English translation (You know, those “great improvements” upon the old, archaic King James Version) mistranslates this phrase and makes it read, “faith in Christ.” I do not think that the mistranslations were made accidentally!

We are told by the commentators and led by the modern translations to believe that the phrase is really just an odd way of saying “faith in Christ” and that it really refers to our faith in Christ. Such recklessness in handling the Word of God, be it deliberate or otherwise, completely alters the meaning of Holy Scripture.

CLEAR DISTINCTION
When Paul speaks of our faith in Christ and of the faith of Christ as distinct things, the distinction is clear and unmistakable. When he speaks of our faith it is obvious (Romans 3:25, 28; 4:5; Galatians 3:26; Colossians 1:4). There’s no ambiguity at all.

(Romans 3:25) “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;”
(Romans 3:28) “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
(Romans 4:5) “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
(Galatians 3:26) “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
(Colossians 1:4) “Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints.”

In these and the dozens of other passages like them, there is no question about whose faith Paul is referring to. He is talking about our faith. And when he draws a distinction between our faith in Christ and the faith of Christ, the distinction is equally obvious (Romans 3:21-22; Galatians 2:15-16; 3:22; Philippians 3:9).

(Romans 3:21-22) “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”
(Galatians 2:15-16) “We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, (16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
(Galatians 3:22) “But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.”
(Philippians 3:9) “And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.”

to be continued:

RogerW
Nov 11th 2008, 01:39 AM
BOTH VITAL
Paul is not simply declaring our faith in Christ twice in the same sentences, just in different ways. He is not being redundant. Not at all! When he speaks of “the faith of Jesus Christ” he is talking about Christ’s faith. When he speaks of our faith in Christ, he is talking about our faith. Both are vital. We could never be saved by our faith in Christ, were it not for the faith of Christ; and we can never be saved by the faith of Christ until we have faith in Christ. Yes, we must have faith in Christ; and our faith in Christ is the result of “the faith of Christ” as our Savior in this world.

OUR FAITHFUL SURETY
“The faith of Jesus Christ” — What exactly does that mean? When the Holy Spirit speaks about “the faith of Jesus Christ” he is referring to our Savior’s faithful performance of all the Father’s will as our covenant Surety, Substitute and Redeemer.

• “The faith of Jesus Christ” refers to our Savior’s fidelity as Jehovah’s righteous Servant.
• It speaks of his faithful performance in our place, as our Substitute, of all that was necessary for the salvation of God’s elect.
• “The faith of Jesus Christ” refers to his faithfulness in accomplishing all that which the Father trusted to his hands as our Mediator (Ephesians 1:12).

FAITH AND FAITHFULNESS
When the Word of God speaks about “the faith of Christ,” the word “faith” speaks both of our Savior’s trust in God as the perfect man and of his faithfulness to God as his Servant. It speaks not only of trust, but also of loyalty and fidelity. We see a clear example of the word faith being used this way in Romans 3:3-4.

(Romans 3:3-4) “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? (4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.”

When Paul speaks here of “the faith of God,” it is obvious that he is referring to the truth, veracity, fidelity and faithfulness of God. In fact, the word commonly translated “faith” in the New Testament is translated “fidelity” in Titus 2:10.

(Titus 2:10) “Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.”

When Paul here exhorts servants to be faithful in all things to their masters, “showing all good fidelity,” the word could be translated, “showing all good faith.” It is in this sense that he uses the phrase “the faith of Jesus Christ.” Our justification was accomplished and eternal redemption was obtained for us by Christ’s faithfulness in doing all that he came here to do for us, according to the will of God (Matthew 1:21; Hebrews 10:1-14).

(Matthew 1:21) “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.”
(Hebrews 10:1-14) “For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (2) For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. (3) But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. (4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: (6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. (7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. (8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; (9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. (10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: (12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. (14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

OUR KINSMAN REDEEMER
As portrayed in the book of Ruth, the Lord Jesus Christ is our Kinsman Redeemer. As Boaz did for Ruth all that she could not do for herself, what we could not do for ourselves Christ has done for us as our Substitute and Savior, as out Kinsman Redeemer. He took our place before the law of God, assumed total responsibility for us, obeyed the law perfectly, bringing in everlasting righteousness and died under the penalty of the law, satisfying all its holy demands by his death upon the cursed tree, when he was made to be sin for us.

Redemption, as described in the law and illustrated in the book of Ruth, required two things on the part of the redeemer. First, the redeemer had to be able and willing to redeem. Second, he had to faithfully perform all that was required by the law to buy back the lost inheritance of his needy kinsman.

The one needing redemption was totally dependent upon the faithfulness of the kinsman redeemer for deliverance. Ruth laid herself down at Boaz’s feet, looking to him alone for everything her soul required. And she found all in him. He would not rest until he had performed the thing.

So it was with us! The debt and penalty of our sins was one from which we could not escape. The righteousness required by God’s holy law we could not perform. — “By the works of the law shall no flesh be justified!” None of our works, no matter how well intentioned, no matter how well performed, can propitiate God’s justice and justify us in his sight. We desperately need and must have a Redeemer, One who is able and willing to do everything required by God’s holy law and justice for us. We must have a Redeemer who is able and willing, but more, — We must have a Redeemer who has actually stepped out onto the stage of time and faithfully performed all the work for us. “Behold the Man!” — Here is our mighty Boaz, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God (Galatians 4:4-5).

(Galatians 4:4-5) “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.”

Thanks be to God for “the faith of Jesus Christ” and the redemption, justification and salvation he accomplished by his faithfulness as our Substitute and Surety!

THE VERSES
Look at the passages in which Paul uses this tremendous phrase — “The faith of Jesus Christ,” and rejoice in the glorious good news of the gospel — redemption obtained and justification accomplished by the faithful obedience of Christ as the sinner’s Substitute.

(Romans 3:21-22) “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”
(Galatians 2:15-16) “We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, (16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
(Galatians 3:22) “But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.”
(Philippians 3:9) “And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”

FREE SALVATION
The “righteousness of God,” justification, the promise of justification unto eternal life, does not come and could never come through something we do. Never! — “Salvation is of the Lord!” It has been accomplished and comes to sinners by “the faith of Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 1:11-12; 3:8-12). It costs our Savior dear; but the salvation he gives is a totally free salvation.

(Ephesians 1:11-12) “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.”
(Ephesians 3:8-12) “Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; (9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, (11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: (12) In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”

By Christ’s faithful obedience unto death in our room and stead, every sinner who trusts him has been made completely worthy of God’s everlasting approval in heaven’s eternal glory, and shall have it. Let us give thanks to our great God for such grace by such a Savior (Colossians 1:12-14).

(Colossians 1:11-14) “Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; (12) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: (13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.”

The life we now have and enjoy in Christ, that eternal life, which is God’s free gift to us, comes to us “by the faith of the Son of God” (Galatians 2:19-20).

(Galatians 2:19-20) “For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. (20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

OUR FAITH IN CHRIST
Does all of this mean that sinners must not be called upon to believe in Christ? Does this mean that “faith in Christ” is unnecessary? Not at all! Our “faith in Christ” is every bit as necessary for our eternal salvation as “the faith of Christ” as our Savior. The Scriptures speak just as often and just as forcefully about our “faith in Christ” as they do of “the faith of Christ” (Acts 3:16; 24:24; Romans 3:25; Galatians 3:26; Ephesians 1:15; Colossians 1:4; 2:5).

(Acts 3:16) “And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.”
(Acts 24:24) “And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.”
(Romans 3:25) “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;”
(Galatians 3:26) “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
(Ephesians 1:15) “Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints.”
(Colossians 1:4) “Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,”
(Colossians 2:5) “For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.”

I call upon you now to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do so with this word from God Almighty to you. — Are you listening? — This is a sure thing. — This is a lead pipe synch. — “He that believeth on the Son of God hath everlasting life.” I say to you exactly what Paul said to the Philippian jailor, when he came trembling and fell down at Paul’s feet, crying, “What must I do to be saved?” — “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved!”

If you trust Christ, you now live “by the faith of the Son of God” who loved you and gave himself for you. You have redemption, righteousness, justification, and eternal life. You have everything included in that magnificently huge word – “SALVATION!” It was all obtained for you by “the faith of Jesus Christ.” Even your faith in him, and mine, were obtained for us by “the faith of Jesus Christ.” No wonder Paul speaks as he does in 1st Corinthians 1:30-31.

(1 Cor 1:30-31) “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: (31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.”

Amen.

Butch5
Nov 11th 2008, 02:30 AM
BOTH VITAL
Paul is not simply declaring our faith in Christ twice in the same sentences, just in different ways. He is not being redundant. Not at all! When he speaks of “the faith of Jesus Christ” he is talking about Christ’s faith. When he speaks of our faith in Christ, he is talking about our faith. Both are vital. We could never be saved by our faith in Christ, were it not for the faith of Christ; and we can never be saved by the faith of Christ until we have faith in Christ. Yes, we must have faith in Christ; and our faith in Christ is the result of “the faith of Christ” as our Savior in this world.

OUR FAITHFUL SURETY
“The faith of Jesus Christ” — What exactly does that mean? When the Holy Spirit speaks about “the faith of Jesus Christ” he is referring to our Savior’s faithful performance of all the Father’s will as our covenant Surety, Substitute and Redeemer.

• “The faith of Jesus Christ” refers to our Savior’s fidelity as Jehovah’s righteous Servant.
• It speaks of his faithful performance in our place, as our Substitute, of all that was necessary for the salvation of God’s elect.
• “The faith of Jesus Christ” refers to his faithfulness in accomplishing all that which the Father trusted to his hands as our Mediator (Ephesians 1:12).

FAITH AND FAITHFULNESS
When the Word of God speaks about “the faith of Christ,” the word “faith” speaks both of our Savior’s trust in God as the perfect man and of his faithfulness to God as his Servant. It speaks not only of trust, but also of loyalty and fidelity. We see a clear example of the word faith being used this way in Romans 3:3-4.

(Romans 3:3-4) “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? (4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.”

When Paul speaks here of “the faith of God,” it is obvious that he is referring to the truth, veracity, fidelity and faithfulness of God. In fact, the word commonly translated “faith” in the New Testament is translated “fidelity” in Titus 2:10.

(Titus 2:10) “Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.”

When Paul here exhorts servants to be faithful in all things to their masters, “showing all good fidelity,” the word could be translated, “showing all good faith.” It is in this sense that he uses the phrase “the faith of Jesus Christ.” Our justification was accomplished and eternal redemption was obtained for us by Christ’s faithfulness in doing all that he came here to do for us, according to the will of God (Matthew 1:21; Hebrews 10:1-14).

(Matthew 1:21) “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.”
(Hebrews 10:1-14) “For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (2) For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. (3) But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. (4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: (6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. (7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. (8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; (9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. (10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: (12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. (14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

OUR KINSMAN REDEEMER
As portrayed in the book of Ruth, the Lord Jesus Christ is our Kinsman Redeemer. As Boaz did for Ruth all that she could not do for herself, what we could not do for ourselves Christ has done for us as our Substitute and Savior, as out Kinsman Redeemer. He took our place before the law of God, assumed total responsibility for us, obeyed the law perfectly, bringing in everlasting righteousness and died under the penalty of the law, satisfying all its holy demands by his death upon the cursed tree, when he was made to be sin for us.

Redemption, as described in the law and illustrated in the book of Ruth, required two things on the part of the redeemer. First, the redeemer had to be able and willing to redeem. Second, he had to faithfully perform all that was required by the law to buy back the lost inheritance of his needy kinsman.

The one needing redemption was totally dependent upon the faithfulness of the kinsman redeemer for deliverance. Ruth laid herself down at Boaz’s feet, looking to him alone for everything her soul required. And she found all in him. He would not rest until he had performed the thing.

So it was with us! The debt and penalty of our sins was one from which we could not escape. The righteousness required by God’s holy law we could not perform. — “By the works of the law shall no flesh be justified!” None of our works, no matter how well intentioned, no matter how well performed, can propitiate God’s justice and justify us in his sight. We desperately need and must have a Redeemer, One who is able and willing to do everything required by God’s holy law and justice for us. We must have a Redeemer who is able and willing, but more, — We must have a Redeemer who has actually stepped out onto the stage of time and faithfully performed all the work for us. “Behold the Man!” — Here is our mighty Boaz, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God (Galatians 4:4-5).

(Galatians 4:4-5) “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.”

Thanks be to God for “the faith of Jesus Christ” and the redemption, justification and salvation he accomplished by his faithfulness as our Substitute and Surety!

THE VERSES
Look at the passages in which Paul uses this tremendous phrase — “The faith of Jesus Christ,” and rejoice in the glorious good news of the gospel — redemption obtained and justification accomplished by the faithful obedience of Christ as the sinner’s Substitute.

(Romans 3:21-22) “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”
(Galatians 2:15-16) “We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, (16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
(Galatians 3:22) “But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.”
(Philippians 3:9) “And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”

FREE SALVATION
The “righteousness of God,” justification, the promise of justification unto eternal life, does not come and could never come through something we do. Never! — “Salvation is of the Lord!” It has been accomplished and comes to sinners by “the faith of Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 1:11-12; 3:8-12). It costs our Savior dear; but the salvation he gives is a totally free salvation.

(Ephesians 1:11-12) “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.”
(Ephesians 3:8-12) “Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; (9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, (11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: (12) In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”

By Christ’s faithful obedience unto death in our room and stead, every sinner who trusts him has been made completely worthy of God’s everlasting approval in heaven’s eternal glory, and shall have it. Let us give thanks to our great God for such grace by such a Savior (Colossians 1:12-14).

(Colossians 1:11-14) “Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; (12) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: (13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.”

The life we now have and enjoy in Christ, that eternal life, which is God’s free gift to us, comes to us “by the faith of the Son of God” (Galatians 2:19-20).

(Galatians 2:19-20) “For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. (20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

OUR FAITH IN CHRIST
Does all of this mean that sinners must not be called upon to believe in Christ? Does this mean that “faith in Christ” is unnecessary? Not at all! Our “faith in Christ” is every bit as necessary for our eternal salvation as “the faith of Christ” as our Savior. The Scriptures speak just as often and just as forcefully about our “faith in Christ” as they do of “the faith of Christ” (Acts 3:16; 24:24; Romans 3:25; Galatians 3:26; Ephesians 1:15; Colossians 1:4; 2:5).

(Acts 3:16) “And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.”
(Acts 24:24) “And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.”
(Romans 3:25) “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;”
(Galatians 3:26) “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
(Ephesians 1:15) “Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints.”
(Colossians 1:4) “Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,”
(Colossians 2:5) “For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.”

I call upon you now to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do so with this word from God Almighty to you. — Are you listening? — This is a sure thing. — This is a lead pipe synch. — “He that believeth on the Son of God hath everlasting life.” I say to you exactly what Paul said to the Philippian jailor, when he came trembling and fell down at Paul’s feet, crying, “What must I do to be saved?” — “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved!”

If you trust Christ, you now live “by the faith of the Son of God” who loved you and gave himself for you. You have redemption, righteousness, justification, and eternal life. You have everything included in that magnificently huge word – “SALVATION!” It was all obtained for you by “the faith of Jesus Christ.” Even your faith in him, and mine, were obtained for us by “the faith of Jesus Christ.” No wonder Paul speaks as he does in 1st Corinthians 1:30-31.

(1 Cor 1:30-31) “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: (31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.”

Amen.

The faith of Christ is the Gospel.

RogerW
Nov 11th 2008, 01:38 PM
The faith of Christ is the Gospel.

Would you mind elaborating a bit Butch?

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 11th 2008, 06:22 PM
Saving faith is not given to people. Yes, without the faithful obedience of Christ to finish what He came to do by dying on the cross for the sins of the whole world, no one could be saved. But scripture does not teach that "the faith of Christ" is irresistibly infused in the few who are chosen by the power of the Holy Spirit and then we proceed to automatically or naturally repent and believe in Him. Scripture teaches that God desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4). God wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9). Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world and not just a few chosen ones.

The reason that not all are saved despite God desiring all to repent and be saved is that God has given people the responsibility to choose who to give their lives and their allegiance to. Joshua indicated that people have the choice of who they wish to serve, whether it's the LORD or a false god (Joshua 24:15). The fact is that many choose to deny Christ.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Now, do these people who deny and reject Christ do so because they have no ability to accept Him? No. Christ wouldn't have died for them if they had no ability to repent and believe in Him. People reject Him because they are not willing to turn from their sins and submit to Him as their Lord and Savior. It isn't that they can not, it's that they will not.

Matt 22
1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matt 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Acts 18
5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ.
6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, “Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

Notice that last passage. Why would it be necessary to reason with people to persuade them to believe the truth of the gospel if people had no choice in the matter? If people did not have any willful choice in the matter then no amount of reasoning could persuade them to believe the truth and therefore reasoning with people would be a waste of time. Also, notice that it was the Spirit who compelled Paul to preach to those people. Did the Spirit not want them to accept the gospel? Did the Spirit have Paul preach to them without giving them the ability to choose to respond favorably to the message? If so, then what a colossal waste of time! But that was not the case. These people were being called to salvation and they willingly chose to reject it. Again, it was not because they could not accept it, but because they would not accept it.

But, again, scripture doesn't teach that people are just suddenly given saving faith out of the blue which leads them to repent and believe in Christ. God's way of reasoning with people and persuading them to believe the truth is through the preaching of the gospel along with the convicting work of the Spirit. While those are obviously powerful forces at work on the hearts and consciences of people, it does not mean that it is irresistible. I showed a few examples of people resisting the call and there are several others.

Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 20:16, Matt 22:14). God doesn't call people who are not able to respond with faith and repentance. That would not make any sense. Yet many who He calls do not answer the call and they willingly reject it. That is by their own free will choice. If they had no ability to choose then why would their rejection of the gospel be on their own heads? How could someone be responsible for not doing something they are not given the ability to do? How could people be condemned for not believing in Christ (John 3:18) if they never have the ability to believe in Christ? That would make no sense whatsoever. People are condemned for not believing in Christ because that was their own willful choice and they are held responsible for making that decision.

John146
Nov 11th 2008, 07:49 PM
RogerW,

I was reading your post with amazement because rarely do we hear of the faith OF Christ. It was nice for someone to understand that the faith OF Christ is the saving faith. Great presentation of the gospel.

However I do have to disagree with the statement that our faith plays a part in our salvation. Our faith (if we have saving faith that is) is a result of salvation and not a cause of. The only faith that can save is Jesus Christ's faith as you pointed out. The bible does command us all to believe but as you stated in your post it is sin tainted and therefore unacceptable to God. Faith from us is a work that we do and as such cannot save us nor help in our salvation in any way. Remember Eph 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If the bible commands us to believe (which it does) then that then is the law. Everything in the bible is the law. Since it is a law and if we try to obey that law thinking that it will aid on our salvation, we are putting ourselves under the law. And as such placing ourselves in debt to do the whole law perfectly. Gal 5:3

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Our faith cannot save nor does it help in salvation. If one thinks we can contribute in any way to our salvation, we are in effect robbing God. How? By robbing Him of some of His glory which doesn't belong to us but to Him only.

Jhn 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Those verses are speaking of the law of Moses. Faith in Christ is not part of the law of Moses. To say that "everything in the Bible is the law" is, well, unbiblical. You certainly have no scripture stating as such.

And, you are taking John 10:1 out of context. In that verse, Jesus is saying that He is the one who enters by the door into the sheepfold and anyone who came before Him is a thief and a robber. Later, He says that He is the door of the sheep. Everyone else who tried to lay claim as being the Messiah or the Savior were thieves and robbers and the sheep who knew Christ was the true Messiah did not follow them.

John 10
1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Nowhere in this passage does it say anything about our faith not being a factor in salvation. But, don't worry, you're not the only one who has misunderstood this parable. Even the disciples didn't understand it when they heard it (verse 6). But we have the benefit of being able to read Jesus' explanation of it.

Notice verse 9. We are required to enter in the door in order to be saved. That means we are required to put our faith and trust in Christ in order to be saved.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 11th 2008, 09:28 PM
Hi Roger!

Thanks for posting this.

It is something that the Lord has been laying on my heart quite a lot recently. This post has helped confirm, and clarify my understanding.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

I pray that you also Keep the faith!!

Teke
Nov 11th 2008, 10:20 PM
Roger, there is "one" faith.

Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.


If a person is in the Body of Christ, the person has the same faith as Christ did, the ONE faith.

RogerW
Nov 12th 2008, 12:49 AM
RogerW,
I was reading your post with amazement because rarely do we hear of the faith OF Christ. It was nice for someone to understand that the faith OF Christ is the saving faith. Great presentation of the gospel.

Greetings MikeyO,

I couldn't agree more. Understanding the faith OF Christ is saving faith, is seldom heard today. I certainly cannot take credit for this sermon that was given on a Sunday morning by Rev Don Fortner.

I think much of the reason there is such lack of understanding whose faith saves us, is because the mistranlation of "of" to "in" in virtually all the modern Bible translations. The only translations that have faithfully translated "faith of Christ" come from those translations using the Textus Receptus or Received Text. Of course most popular among these is our King James Bible, which has been discarded by so many as being too archaic, and not as easy to read as the modern versions.



However I do have to disagree with the statement that our faith plays a part in our salvation. Our faith (if we have saving faith that is) is a result of salvation and not a cause of. The only faith that can save is Jesus Christ's faith as you pointed out. The bible does command us all to believe but as you stated in your post it is sin tainted and therefore unacceptable to God. Faith from us is a work that we do and as such cannot save us nor help in our salvation in any way. Remember Eph 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If the bible commands us to believe (which it does) then that then is the law. Everything in the bible is the law. Since it is a law and if we try to obey that law thinking that it will aid on our salvation, we are putting ourselves under the law. And as such placing ourselves in debt to do the whole law perfectly. Gal 5:3

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Our faith cannot save nor does it help in salvation. If one thinks we can contribute in any way to our salvation, we are in effect robbing God. How? By robbing Him of some of His glory which doesn't belong to us but to Him only.

Jhn 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.



I completely agree that our faith cannot save and that it does not even help in our salvation. I knew the sermon made this questionable, but I felt Rev Fortner had done such an excellent job of making the distinction between saving faith, and our work of faith that it should be posted regardless of its weakness.

I'm glad that you appreciate the post, and it is really great to know that others have also come to understand how our faith works, and Whose faith saves us.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 12th 2008, 12:53 AM
Hi Roger!

Thanks for posting this.

It is something that the Lord has been laying on my heart quite a lot recently. This post has helped confirm, and clarify my understanding.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

I pray that you also Keep the faith!!

Greetings Partaker,

I'm glad the sermon by Rev Fortner helped you to better understand the faith that saves belongs to Christ, and our work of faith after salvation. I pray that you too will keep the faith.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 12th 2008, 12:58 AM
Roger, there is "one" faith.

Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.


If a person is in the Body of Christ, the person has the same faith as Christ did, the ONE faith.

Greetings Teke,

I agree there is one faith, and that is the faith of Christ that first and foremost saves His people, then there is a work of faith that every believer is given through the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit. Even our work of faith, done through the power of the Holy Spirit, is truly the One Faith (His) working in and through us. We claim this faith, and it is called our faith, but it would not exist apart from the one true, saving faith OF Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 12th 2008, 01:23 AM
Would you mind elaborating a bit Butch?

Many Blessings,
RW

Elaborate on what? The faith of Jesus Christ is the gospel, it is the message He came to preach. When we speak of the faith of Jesus Christ, we are speaking of His teachings. It's just like if we as Christians say, we are of the faith. What is "the faith"? It is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Butch5
Nov 12th 2008, 01:27 AM
Can someone please tell me, Why in the world would Jesus need to have faith in anything?

Hebrews 11:1 ( KJV ) 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What does Jesus hope for? What is there that Jesus has not seen?

RogerW
Nov 12th 2008, 02:26 AM
Elaborate on what? The faith of Jesus Christ is the gospel, it is the message He came to preach. When we speak of the faith of Jesus Christ, we are speaking of His teachings. It's just like if we as Christians say, we are of the faith. What is "the faith"? It is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Butch,

The faith of Jesus Christ is revealed to us in the gospel. When a Christian says he is of "the faith" he is of the faith of Jesus Christ as revealed to him through the gospel.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 12th 2008, 02:27 AM
Can someone please tell me, Why in the world would Jesus need to have faith in anything?

Hebrews 11:1 ( KJV ) 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What does Jesus hope for? What is there that Jesus has not seen?

The answer to your question is found in the sermon above.

“The faith of Jesus Christ” — What exactly does that mean? When the Holy Spirit speaks about “the faith of Jesus Christ” he is referring to our Savior’s faithful performance of all the Father’s will as our covenant Surety, Substitute and Redeemer.

• “The faith of Jesus Christ” refers to our Savior’s fidelity as Jehovah’s righteous Servant.
• It speaks of his faithful performance in our place, as our Substitute, of all that was necessary for the salvation of God’s elect.
• “The faith of Jesus Christ” refers to his faithfulness in accomplishing all that which the Father trusted to his hands as our Mediator (Ephesians 1:12).

FAITH AND FAITHFULNESS
When the Word of God speaks about “the faith of Christ,” the word “faith” speaks both of our Savior’s trust in God as the perfect man and of his faithfulness to God as his Servant. It speaks not only of trust, but also of loyalty and fidelity. We see a clear example of the word faith being used this way in Romans 3:3-4.

(Romans 3:3-4) “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? (4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.”

When Paul speaks here of “the faith of God,” it is obvious that he is referring to the truth, veracity, fidelity and faithfulness of God. In fact, the word commonly translated “faith” in the New Testament is translated “fidelity” in Titus 2:10.

(Titus 2:10) “Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.”
---------------------------------------------------------

Faith - pistis
G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis
from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Butch5
Nov 12th 2008, 02:29 AM
Butch,

The faith of Jesus Christ is revealed to us in the gospel. When a Christian says he is of "the faith" he is of the faith of Jesus Christ as revealed to him through the gospel.

Many Blessings,
RW

I agree if you mean the teachings of Jesus Christ as revealed to him through the gospel.

RogerW
Nov 12th 2008, 02:32 AM
I agree if you mean the teachings of Jesus Christ as revealed to him through the gospel.

Why would Christ need the gospel revealed to Him?

John146
Nov 12th 2008, 03:35 PM
What must someone do to be saved?

The doctrine of limited atonement says:


Saving faith is a gift of God and there's nothing you have to do to receive salvation.


Scripture says:


"Repent ye, and believe the gospel".
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved"
"Godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation"
"Whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life".
"He that humbleth himself shall be exalted"
"Whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it"
"Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
"Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me"
"He that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me"
"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"
"When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive"
"To this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."
"Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him"
"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Nowhere does it say that God repents and believes for man. Repeatedly, scripture teaches that it is man's responsibility to do those things. Man must make that decision because God has made man responsible. God desires all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) and to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9). With that being the case, why would He then not give all people the ability to make a decision whether or not to repent and believe in Christ? Would He really desire for someone to repent, believe in Christ and be saved and then proceed to not give them any ability to do so? No.

It can't be said that a person is condemned for not believing in Christ (John 3:18) while at the same time trying to say that the person never had any ability to believe in Christ. Would God really condemn a person to the lake of fire for not believing in Christ when they supposedly were never even given the ability to make a decision to believe in Him? No. That would be unfair, unloving, unmerciful and unjust. But God is fair, loving, merciful and just.

The doctrine of limited atonement contradicts God's character, ignores the passages that say God desires all people to repent and be saved, ignores the passages that teach that Christ died for the sins of all people, and ignores the passages that teach the responsibility of man to make a willful decision regarding the gospel of Christ.

RogerW
Nov 12th 2008, 03:37 PM
Saving faith is not given to people. Yes, without the faithful obedience of Christ to finish what He came to do by dying on the cross for the sins of the whole world, no one could be saved. But scripture does not teach that "the faith of Christ" is irresistibly infused in the few who are chosen by the power of the Holy Spirit and then we proceed to automatically or naturally repent and believe in Him. Scripture teaches that God desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4). God wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9). Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world and not just a few chosen ones.

The reason that not all are saved despite God desiring all to repent and be saved is that God has given people the responsibility to choose who to give their lives and their allegiance to. Joshua indicated that people have the choice of who they wish to serve, whether it's the LORD or a false god (Joshua 24:15). The fact is that many choose to deny Christ.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Now, do these people who deny and reject Christ do so because they have no ability to accept Him? No. Christ wouldn't have died for them if they had no ability to repent and believe in Him. People reject Him because they are not willing to turn from their sins and submit to Him as their Lord and Savior. It isn't that they can not, it's that they will not.

Matt 22
1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matt 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Acts 18
5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ.
6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, “Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

Notice that last passage. Why would it be necessary to reason with people to persuade them to believe the truth of the gospel if people had no choice in the matter? If people did not have any willful choice in the matter then no amount of reasoning could persuade them to believe the truth and therefore reasoning with people would be a waste of time. Also, notice that it was the Spirit who compelled Paul to preach to those people. Did the Spirit not want them to accept the gospel? Did the Spirit have Paul preach to them without giving them the ability to choose to respond favorably to the message? If so, then what a colossal waste of time! But that was not the case. These people were being called to salvation and they willingly chose to reject it. Again, it was not because they could not accept it, but because they would not accept it.

But, again, scripture doesn't teach that people are just suddenly given saving faith out of the blue which leads them to repent and believe in Christ. God's way of reasoning with people and persuading them to believe the truth is through the preaching of the gospel along with the convicting work of the Spirit. While those are obviously powerful forces at work on the hearts and consciences of people, it does not mean that it is irresistible. I showed a few examples of people resisting the call and there are several others.

Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 20:16, Matt 22:14). God doesn't call people who are not able to respond with faith and repentance. That would not make any sense. Yet many who He calls do not answer the call and they willingly reject it. That is by their own free will choice. If they had no ability to choose then why would their rejection of the gospel be on their own heads? How could someone be responsible for not doing something they are not given the ability to do? How could people be condemned for not believing in Christ (John 3:18) if they never have the ability to believe in Christ? That would make no sense whatsoever. People are condemned for not believing in Christ because that was their own willful choice and they are held responsible for making that decision.

Greetings Eric,

These are your same talking points that we have gone round and round on repeatedly. So I would like to change the direction of this discussion with you, if I may. How would you respond or interpret the various passages of Scripture that clearly say "faith OF Christ" if you did not have the many modern versions telling you this really means faith IN Christ? Would you simply disregard them as you appear to be doing now? Or, would you try to understand what "faith OF Christ" means?

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 12th 2008, 04:31 PM
Greetings Eric,

These are your same talking points that we have gone round and round on repeatedly.But you have avoided taking on those passages I quoted directly and you weave your way around them. Maybe some day you will no longer avoid them or brush them aside, take them head on and realize the truth that they teach.


So I would like to change the direction of this discussion with you, if I may. How would you respond or interpret the various passages of Scripture that clearly say "faith OF Christ" if you did not have the many modern versions telling you this really means faith IN Christ? Would you simply disregard them as you appear to be doing now? Or, would you try to understand what "faith OF Christ" means?

Many Blessings,
RWI've already gave my position on that, but I will give you my position, for the sake of argument, based on the assumption that the phrase "faith of Christ" is the accurate translation rather than "faith in Christ".

If that was the case, then certainly it can't be referring to saving faith. Saving faith has to do with believing IN Christ as so many passages make clear (Acts 16:27-34, John 3:15-18, Romans 10:9-10, Gal 3:26, etc.). So, if "faith of Christ" is the best translation in those verses then it would be referring to the faithfulness of Christ. He was faithfully obedient to the Father in accomplishing everything that He was sent to do. Obviously, without His death and resurrection, salvation would not be possible for anyone. Since we know that saving faith is faith IN Christ then we can easily conclude that "the faith of Christ" would not be saving faith as He certainly didn't need to have faith in Himself. Both the faithfulness of Christ in dying on the cross as the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) and faith in Christ are required for salvation.

Also, there are no verses that say that the faith of Christ is given to people and then after the faith of Christ is received people then repent and believe in Him and are saved. It says that "Abraham believed God" and his own faith was counted to him for righteousness and it was his own faith by which he was justified. It couldn't be more clear.

Also, it says "whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" and "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved". Clearly, these verses show that it is the individual person's faith and confession that is required in order to receive salvation and eternal life. Those verses don't even hint at the idea of saving faith being given to someone and neither do any others.

A big reason why you think saving faith is a gift given by God is Ephesians 2:8-9. We've gone over that before, but I believe you are in denial of what is really taught in that passage. In the preceding chapter it indicates that one is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise until AFTER they have put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. I believe it is at that moment when the Holy Spirit indwells us and seals us that we are saved and born of the Spirit. So, being born of the Spirit comes after one puts their faith and trust in Christ.

Paul continues on into Ephesians 2 while giving further explanation as to how a person is saved. He had just talked about people putting their faith and trust IN Christ in the previous chapter. So, what reason is there to think that the faith through which we are saved by grace is not our faith? To be consistent with what he had been previously been teaching, it has to be understood that Ephesians 2:8 is referring to our faith in Christ. Again, other scripture clearly teaches that we are saved by faith in Christ, so there's no reason to think that Ephesians 2:8 is not teaching the same thing as John 3:15-18, Romans 10:9-10 and other passages.

Another thing that has to be taken into account when interpreting Ephesians 2:8-9 is Greek grammar. I'm not an expert in that area, so I'll let someone who is more versed in it than me to explain:

(from http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2297)

Is Faith a Gift from God?

by Eric Lyons (http://www.apologeticspress.org/staff/el), M.Min.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9, emp. added).For centuries, Bible commentators have differed on the precise reference of the pronoun “that” in Ephesians 2:8. Does “that” (touto) refer to faith, as many have stated (e.g., Augustine, Chrysostom, Westcott, Lenski, etc.), or, does “that” refer to salvation from sin? Is faith “the gift of God,” or is this gift salvation by grace through faith?
Admittedly, from a cursory reading of Ephesians 2:8, it may appear that the relative pronoun that has faith as its grammatical antecedent. Those who believe that faith is a gift (i.e., miraculous imposition) from God, often point out that in this verse “faith” is the nearest antecedent of “that” (“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God”). However, when one examines Ephesians 2:8 in the language in which it was written originally (Greek), he finds that the pronoun that (touto) is neuter in gender, while the word faith (pistis) is feminine. Since the general rule in Greek grammar is for the gender and number of a relative pronoun to be the same as its antecedent (Mounce, 1993, p. 111), then some extenuating linguistic circumstance, special idiomatic use, or other mitigating factor would need to be demonstrated to justify linking “that” to “faith.” If such reasonable justification cannot be made, then one is compelled to continue studying the passage in order to know assuredly what “that” gift of God is.
When no clear antecedent is found within a text, Greek scholar William Mounce wisely recommends that the Bible student study the context of the passage in question in order to help determine to what a relative pronoun (like “that”) is referring (1993, p. 111). The overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians is man’s salvation found in Christ.


“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (1:7).
The heavenly “inheritance” is found in Christ (1:11).
After believing in the good news of salvation through Christ, the Ephesians were “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” (1:13).
Sinners are made “alive with Christ” and saved “by grace” (2:5).
Sinners are brought near to God “by the blood of Christ” (2:13).
Paul became a servant of Christ “according to the gift of the grace of God…by the effective working of His power” (3:7).

Not only is the theme of salvation the overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians, but the immediate context of Ephesians 2:8-9 is of salvation, not of faith. These two verses thoroughly document how a person is saved, not how a person believes.


Salvation is by grace.
Salvation is through faith.
Salvation is not of yourselves.
Salvation is the gift of God.
Salvation is not of works.

Paul was not giving an exposition on faith in his letter to the Ephesians. Salvation was his focus. Faith is mentioned as the mode by which salvation is accepted. Salvation is through faith. Just as water is received into a house in twenty-first-century America through a pipeline, a sinner receives salvation through obedient faith. The main focus of Paul’s message in Ephesians 2:8-9 was salvation (the living “water that springs up into everlasting life”—cf. John 4:14), not the mode of salvation.
Faith is not a direct gift from God given to some but not others. Rather, as Paul wrote to the church at Rome, “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). Faith in Christ as the Son of God is only found in those who have first heard the Word of God, and then believed (cf. John 20:31).

REFERENCES
Mounce, William D. (1993), Basics of Biblical Greek (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan).

Copyright © 2003 Apologetics Press, Inc. All rights reserved.


He makes the same point I have made before. What is not of our own works? Faith? No. Salvation. What is by grace? Faith? No. Salvation. It is salvation that is by grace, salvation is through faith in Christ, salvation is not of our own works and salvation is the gift of God. Specifically, salvation and eternal life through faith in Christ, by way of God's grace, is the gift of God. That's what we see taught in passages like Romans 6:15-23.

Romans 6
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


It is a gift that must be accepted and received, which is not automatic. Notice in verse 17 above that they "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered" to them. And the gift of God is not saving faith but eternal life, which is eternal salvation. That is what we see taught elsewhere in scripture and there's no reason for Ephesians 2:8-9 to not agree with scripture as a whole.

RogerW
Nov 12th 2008, 06:12 PM
Another thing that has to be taken into account when interpreting Ephesians 2:8-9 is Greek grammar. I'm not an expert in that area, so I'll let someone who is more versed in it than me to explain:

(from http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2297)

Is Faith a Gift from God?

by Eric Lyons (http://www.apologeticspress.org/staff/el), M.Min.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9, emp. added).
For centuries, Bible commentators have differed on the precise reference of the pronoun “that” in Ephesians 2:8. Does “that” (touto) refer to faith, as many have stated (e.g., Augustine, Chrysostom, Westcott, Lenski, etc.), or, does “that” refer to salvation from sin? Is faith “the gift of God,” or is this gift salvation by grace through faith?
Admittedly, from a cursory reading of Ephesians 2:8, it may appear that the relative pronoun that has faith as its grammatical antecedent. Those who believe that faith is a gift (i.e., miraculous imposition) from God, often point out that in this verse “faith” is the nearest antecedent of “that” (“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God”). However, when one examines Ephesians 2:8 in the language in which it was written originally (Greek), he finds that the pronoun that (touto) is neuter in gender, while the word faith (pistis) is feminine. Since the general rule in Greek grammar is for the gender and number of a relative pronoun to be the same as its antecedent (Mounce, 1993, p. 111), then some extenuating linguistic circumstance, special idiomatic use, or other mitigating factor would need to be demonstrated to justify linking “that” to “faith.” If such reasonable justification cannot be made, then one is compelled to continue studying the passage in order to know assuredly what “that” gift of God is.
When no clear antecedent is found within a text, Greek scholar William Mounce wisely recommends that the Bible student study the context of the passage in question in order to help determine to what a relative pronoun (like “that”) is referring (1993, p. 111). The overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians is man’s salvation found in Christ.


“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (1:7).
The heavenly “inheritance” is found in Christ (1:11).
After believing in the good news of salvation through Christ, the Ephesians were “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” (1:13).
Sinners are made “alive with Christ” and saved “by grace” (2:5).
Sinners are brought near to God “by the blood of Christ” (2:13).
Paul became a servant of Christ “according to the gift of the grace of God…by the effective working of His power” (3:7).
Not only is the theme of salvation the overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians, but the immediate context of Ephesians 2:8-9 is of salvation, not of faith. These two verses thoroughly document how a person is saved, not how a person believes.


Salvation is by grace.
Salvation is through faith.
Salvation is not of yourselves.
Salvation is the gift of God.
Salvation is not of works.
Paul was not giving an exposition on faith in his letter to the Ephesians. Salvation was his focus. Faith is mentioned as the mode by which salvation is accepted. Salvation is through faith. Just as water is received into a house in twenty-first-century America through a pipeline, a sinner receives salvation through obedient faith. The main focus of Paul’s message in Ephesians 2:8-9 was salvation (the living “water that springs up into everlasting life”—cf. John 4:14), not the mode of salvation.
Faith is not a direct gift from God given to some but not others. Rather, as Paul wrote to the church at Rome, “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). Faith in Christ as the Son of God is only found in those who have first heard the Word of God, and then believed (cf. John 20:31).


REFERENCES

Mounce, William D. (1993), Basics of Biblical Greek (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan).

Copyright © 2003 Apologetics Press, Inc. All rights reserved.

This is what I like to lovingly refer to as learned theologian Einsteinese!

The over all theme is very clearly the free mercy and grace of God alone in saving sinners. The context shows Who saves, and why and how He is the only One Who can give life to spiritually dead men.

I notice when your reference considers the context surrounding Eph 2:8,9 he inadvertantly leaves out vs 5 especially, but most of the context. Vs 5 - "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)". Neither does he make mention of another verse that tells us faith is by grace. Ro 4:16 " Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,". How can faith be by grace if it comes from ourselves?

Let's look at the context a little differently then your commentary does. Verse four speaks of God being rich in mercy, and great love for us (His people). How does He show this great love for us? He gives us spiritual life because we cannot make ourselves spiritually alive together with Christ. How does He do this? By His grace alone, He saves us. Why doesn't Paul mention here that He can only save us if we place our faith in Him? Because our faith cannot save us. Why? Because He alone raises us up together and makes us sit together in Christ Jesus. Why does He alone, without our faith do this? That He might show the riches of His grace, not by our faith, but through Christ Jesus. [For] (assigning a reason for what He does) by grace we are saved...how? through faith, and [that thing, it, the same] faith not of yourselves: the gift of God. ["it is" does not belong in the text] Why must it be by grace through faith that is not ours? Because faith works, and if it were our work to put our faith in Christ for salvation it would not be of His mercy, or His grace, but our work of faith. Therefore we could boast (as some free will believers do) that we are saved because we turned our hearts to Christ, and others don't.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [the same] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The context surrounding vs 8,9 build upon God's mercy and grace toward sinners, who are spiritually dead and made alive in Christ, because they have no ability to make themselves spiritually alive. But you want us to believe that after showing His mercy and grace toward spiritually dead sinners, then Paul tells us that faith must come from us and is not also the gift of God's mercy and grace? If it is our faith that saves us by His mercy and grace, and faith is not the gift of God, and it is not a work of fallen man, nor apparently, according to you a work of Christ, then why does Paul say not of works, lest any man should boast?



He makes the same point I have made before. What is not of our own works? Faith? No. Salvation. What is by grace? Faith? No. Salvation. It is salvation that is by grace, salvation is through faith in Christ, salvation is not of our own works and salvation is the gift of God.

Eric, none of salvation is by our own works. Faith is absolutely necessary for salvation, and faith works! Therefore saving faith is a gift of God's grace, otherwise no man could be saved.



It is a gift that must be accepted and received, which is not automatic. And the gift of God is not saving faith but eternal life, which is eternal salvation. That is what we see taught elsewhere in scripture and there's no reason for Ephesians 2:8-9 to not agree with scripture as a whole.

Can you show Scripture telling us we cannot be saved unless we accept and receive His free gift of salvation being offered? Especially in light of the revelation you have given that the gift of God is eternal life? How do spiritually dead sinners accept and receive eternal life? I completely agree that Eph 2:8,9 is teaching what we find throughout Scripture, that eternal life is given to all who believe. But I've yet to find a single verse of Scripture telling us that Christ merely offers eternal life, salvation, grace, faith to anyone who will simply accept and receive His offer.

Funny thing about eternal life being given is that just like physical life is not offered but given, so too eternal life is not offered but given.

Many blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 12th 2008, 07:32 PM
This is what I like to lovingly refer to as learned theologian Einsteinese!

The over all theme is very clearly the free mercy and grace of God alone in saving sinners. The context shows Who saves, and why and how He is the only One Who can give life to spiritually dead men.

I notice when your reference considers the context surrounding Eph 2:8,9 he inadvertantly leaves out vs 5 especially, but most of the context. Vs 5 - "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)". Neither does he make mention of another verse that tells us faith is by grace. Ro 4:16 " Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,". How can faith be by grace if it comes from ourselves? It says "to that also which is of the faith of Abraham", not "to that also which is of the faith of Christ". Abraham had his own faith. He was strong in the faith. Abraham was a very humble man. It just so happened that he also had strong faith. That doesn't mean he had anything to boast about.

Rom 4
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

This clearly is speaking of Abraham's own faith. Deny it all you want, but he clearly had his own faith and it was a strong faith.


Let's look at the context a little differently then your commentary does. Verse four speaks of God being rich in mercy, and great love for us (His people). How does He show this great love for us? He gives us spiritual life because we cannot make ourselves spiritually alive together with Christ. How does He do this? By His grace alone, He saves us. Why doesn't Paul mention here that He can only save us if we place our faith in Him? Because he clarifies that later. That's what he had been speaking about in the previous chapter. It says they weren't sealed by the holy Spirit until AFTER they trusted and believed in Christ. He clearly related salvation to trusting and believing in Christ in Ephesians 1 so there's no reason to think he was not expanding on that in Ephesians 2. Also, it's quite noticeable that you had no response for what you were shown regarding the proper understanding of the Greek grammar in Ephesians 2:8-9. I'm not surprised.


Because our faith cannot save us. Why? Because He alone raises us up together and makes us sit together in Christ Jesus.He only does that for those who have faith in Him. You keep leaving out the requirement and responsibility that He gives people to repent and believe in Christ. That is a major weakness in your doctrine.


Why does He alone, without our faith do this? That He might show the riches of His grace, not by our faith, but through Christ Jesus. [For] (assigning a reason for what He does) by grace we are saved...how? through faith, and [that thing, it, the same] faith not of yourselves: the gift of God. ["it is" does not belong in the text] Why must it be by grace through faith that is not ours? Because faith works, and if it were our work to put our faith in Christ for salvation it would not be of His mercy, or His grace, but our work of faith. Therefore we could boast (as some free will believers do) that we are saved because we turned our hearts to Christ, and others don't.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [the same] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The context surrounding vs 8,9 build upon God's mercy and grace toward sinners, who are spiritually dead and made alive in Christ, because they have no ability to make themselves spiritually alive. But you want us to believe that after showing His mercy and grace toward spiritually dead sinners, then Paul tells us that faith must come from us and is not also the gift of God's mercy and grace? If it is our faith that saves us by His mercy and grace, and faith is not the gift of God, and it is not a work of fallen man, nor apparently, according to you a work of Christ, then why does Paul say not of works, lest any man should boast? Faith is not a work of the law or a work of righteousness. It's not including in the works that Paul is speaking about. It is salvation that is by grace, it is salvation that is through faith in Christ, it is salvation that is not of our own works and it is salvation that is the gift of God.

If faith was a good work and we're not saved by good works, then how could we be saved through faith in Christ? How could Jesus say that anyone who believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life if faith in Christ is a work? How could Paul say that anyone who confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and "shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead" is saved if faith was the kind of work he is talking about in Ephesians 2:9?

Eric, none of salvation is by our own works.Exactly. But turning from one's sins and putting one's faith in Christ are not works. They are decisions of the heart. When scripture speaks of not being saved by works it only is in reference to either works of the law or to good works of righteousness and neither repentance nor faith fit into either of those categories.


Faith is absolutely necessary for salvation, and faith works! Therefore saving faith is a gift of God's grace, otherwise no man could be saved. Scripture says that we are not saved by works of the law or by righteous works that we do. Faith is neither of those. That's what you can't seem to understand, for whatever reason.


Can you show Scripture telling us we cannot be saved unless we accept and receive His free gift of salvation being offered? Especially in light of the revelation you have given that the gift of God is eternal life? How do spiritually dead sinners accept and receive eternal life? I completely agree that Eph 2:8,9 is teaching what we find throughout Scripture, that eternal life is given to all who believe. But I've yet to find a single verse of Scripture telling us that Christ merely offers eternal life, salvation, grace, faith to anyone who will simply accept and receive His offer.I've already shown you those. I pointed to Rev 22:17, John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10 and others. I pointed to Matthew 22:1-14, which is all about the gospel of salvation being offered to people while giving examples of people willingly rejecting or accepting the offer. I pointed out the fact that God desires all men to repent and be saved and therefore since not all do repent and are saved, that means they have rejected the chance to be saved that God offers. He would not desire all to repent and be saved if not all had the ability to repent and be saved.


Funny thing about eternal life being given is that just like physical life is not offered but given, so too eternal life is not offered but given. Where is the scripture that compares our receiving physical life with our receiving eternal life? Here is yet another case of you inserting ideas into scripture that aren't there.

Butch5
Nov 12th 2008, 08:59 PM
Why would Christ need the gospel revealed to Him?

That was wrong, I didn't mean that. I meant, the teachings of Christ. Not as revealed to Him.

RogerW
Nov 12th 2008, 08:59 PM
It says "to that also which is of the faith of Abraham", not "to that also which is of the faith of Christ". Abraham had his own faith. He was strong in the faith. Abraham was a very humble man. It just so happened that he also had strong faith. That doesn't mean he had anything to boast about.

Rom 4
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

This clearly is speaking of Abraham's own faith. Deny it all you want, but he clearly had his own faith and it was a strong faith.

Eric,

Abraham had faith by grace...this is what vs 16 tells us, as well as what Eph 2 tells us. Faith is by grace so that the promise might be sure to all the Seed. Not only to the Jews, but also to the Gentiles who have the same faith by grace that Abraham possessed. Who alone gives faith by grace? Can we make ourselves faithful through some imagined grace of our own making? Faith is by grace alone. It cannot be speaking of saving faith that Abraham possesses without grace because then Paul could not say faith is by grace.

Ro 4:16 " Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,". How can faith be by grace if it comes from ourselves?

Abraham had faith by grace that God would keep His promise, therefore it was credited to Him as righteousness. In other words Abraham was justified before God by grace through faith, not of himself, but the gift of God's grace.



Because he clarifies that later. That's what he had been speaking about in the previous chapter. It says they weren't sealed by the holy Spirit until AFTER they trusted and believed in Christ. He clearly related salvation to trusting and believing in Christ in Ephesians 1 so there's no reason to think he was not expanding on that in Ephesians 2. Also, it's quite noticeable that you had no response for what you were shown regarding the proper understanding of the Greek grammar in Ephesians 2:8-9. I'm not surprised.

Eric, shall I bring in my Greek scholar to refute your Greek scholar? What purpose would it serve? It is simply educated men attempting to prove they know more than the next man. They are helpful, but the Bible is its own interpreter, and saving faith can be discerned through searching the Word of God.



Faith is not a work of the law or a work of righteousness. It's not including in the works that Paul is speaking about. It is salvation that is by grace, it is salvation that is through faith in Christ, it is salvation that is not of our own works and it is salvation that is the gift of God.

I have already shown you verses that indicate faith is indeed work. The Greek word translated faith is pistis which means persuasion. Pistis comes from a primary verb peitho. Verbs show action, and action implies faith works. Peitho means to convince by argument. That sounds like work to me. In fact the work of saving faith is to convince or persuade one of the reliance upon Christ for salvation. This is what the Word of God through the power of the Holy Spirit does within the hearts of all who believe through "hearing". Therefore the work involved in bringing us to saving faith is the work of God.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.



If faith was a good work and we're not saved by good works, then how could we be saved through faith in Christ? How could Jesus say that anyone who believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life if faith in Christ is a work? How could Paul say that anyone who confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and "shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead" is saved if faith was the kind of work he is talking about in Ephesians 2:9?

We are saved by good works, just not our good works...God does all the work of causing spiritually dead men to believe. It is the work of God that any believe on Christ.



Scripture says that we are not saved by works of the law or by righteous works that we do. Faith is neither of those. That's what you can't seem to understand, for whatever reason.

We are not saved by righteous works we do, we are saved by righteous works that God does. That's what you can't seem to understand even though Scripture states it clearly.



I've already shown you those. I pointed to Rev 22:17, John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10 and others. I pointed to Matthew 22:1-14, which is all about the gospel of salvation being offered to people while giving examples of people willingly rejecting or accepting the offer. I pointed out the fact that God desires all men to repent and be saved and therefore since not all do repent and are saved, that means they have rejected the chance to be saved that God offers. He would not desire all to repent and be saved if not all had the ability to repent and be saved.

Where is the scripture that compares our receiving physical life with our receiving eternal life? Here is yet another case of you inserting ideas into scripture that aren't there.

But you ignore that Rev 22:17 speaks of those who hear. Only His sheep "hear" Him, and He gives them, not offers them eternal life. And you ignore that Jo 3:16 says whosoever believes. I gave you a verse that clearly tells us that believing is the work of God. You also ignore the context of Ro 10:9,10. The context tells us that none can believe unless they hear, and none can hear without the Word, for faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. And why in the parable of the wedding feast was the one cast out? Because he was not clothed in righteousness. Righteousness means to be justified before God. Only God can clothe us in His righteousness unto salvation.

God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe. But again you ignore the fact that unless God does the work to make us believe no man will repent and believe.

Where is the Scripture that compares receiving physical life with receiving eternal life?

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Nov 12th 2008, 09:58 PM
Greetings Teke,

I agree there is one faith, and that is the faith of Christ that first and foremost saves His people, then there is a work of faith that every believer is given through the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit. Even our work of faith, done through the power of the Holy Spirit, is truly the One Faith (His) working in and through us. We claim this faith, and it is called our faith, but it would not exist apart from the one true, saving faith OF Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

Faith is like grace in that we all receive some, to what extent depends on what we can bear, are able to grasp and contain.

Work of faith is our doing what God created us to do, which is good works for Him. ie. love God, love one another

But we can't regenerate/transform ourselves by this grace and faith, it is a work of God. As I call it, 'transfiguration by grace'. Something which God has done with creation since the beginning. So the creation is manifesting natural revelation about God. That being His regenerative power of Life, which transforms the created (humanity, earthly creation and even the cosmos).


We are saved by good works,
We are saved "for" good works, not "by" good works.

You keep referring to "spiritually dead men". But I can't see spiritually dead anything when it's been created by a life giving Spirit. So I don't see how you come to this conclusion about humanity's spiritual state of being.

RogerW
Nov 13th 2008, 03:03 AM
Faith is like grace in that we all receive some, to what extent depends on what we can bear, are able to grasp and contain.

Hi Teke,

I think it important to make a distinction between that faith that all men have, and saving faith that only elect believers receive. There is a common or saving faith that Scripture speaks of specifically for the elect of God. There is a faith of God's elect in hope of eternal life, promised before the world began. Since the cross this saving faith has been made manifest through preaching of His Word. Paul speaks of this faith as "the common faith", common to all the people of God, a common brotherhood that included Titus, a Gentile, as well as the Jews. This saving faith is called not only "the faith of God's elect", but also "the common faith", "mutual faith", "same spirit of faith", "like precious faith", and "faith delivered unto the saints."

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Tit 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Ro 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.



Work of faith is our doing what God created us to do, which is good works for Him. ie. love God, love one another

Yes, this would be our work of faith in sanctification, but not in salvation. Even our righteousness is but filthy rags, so our work of faith cannot be for salvation. A work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, is the faithful work of the elect of God.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.



But we can't regenerate/transform ourselves by this grace and faith, it is a work of God.

Exactly, we cannot regenrate ourselves by grace through faith, this is indeed the work of God.



Something which God has done with creation since the beginning. So the creation is manifesting natural revelation about God. That being His regenerative power of Life, which transforms the created (humanity, earthly creation and even the cosmos).

Creation does manifest the natural revelation about God; i.e. He exists, and He is worthy to be worshiped and glorified. However regenerative power of life, which transforms us from spiritual death to spiritual life is supernaturally revealed through the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit.



We are saved "for" good works, not "by" good works.

I would argue we are saved by God's good work, for good works.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



You keep referring to "spiritually dead men". But I can't see spiritually dead anything when it's been created by a life giving Spirit. So I don't see how you come to this conclusion about humanity's spiritual state of being.

Something happened after the fall of man. After the fall man became bound by Satan, sin and death. But the man who is made alive through the indwelling Spirit is no longer bound by Satan, sin and death. What has changed? We are still wearing bodies of death, yet we no longer fear death, and in fact even though our bodies die, we never die...why?

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 13th 2008, 03:38 PM
Eric,

Abraham had faith by grace...this is what vs 16 tells us, as well as what Eph 2 tells us. Faith is by grace so that the promise might be sure to all the Seed. Not only to the Jews, but also to the Gentiles who have the same faith by grace that Abraham possessed. Who alone gives faith by grace? Can we make ourselves faithful through some imagined grace of our own making? Faith is by grace alone. It cannot be speaking of saving faith that Abraham possesses without grace because then Paul could not say faith is by grace.

Ro 4:16 " Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,". How can faith be by grace if it comes from ourselves?

Abraham had faith by grace that God would keep His promise, therefore it was credited to Him as righteousness. In other words Abraham was justified before God by grace through faith, not of himself, but the gift of God's grace. Because of God's grace, everyone has the opportunity to be saved by putting their faith in Christ. You continue to try to remove responsibility from people, but scripture teaches that people are responsible to make a decision on whether to repent and believe the gospel or not.


Eric, shall I bring in my Greek scholar to refute your Greek scholar? What purpose would it serve? It is simply educated men attempting to prove they know more than the next man. They are helpful, but the Bible is its own interpreter, and saving faith can be discerned through searching the Word of God. Are you trying to say that understanding Greek grammar isn't important? Your understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9 is based on English grammar and the rules of antecedents. By looking at the Greek grammar we can see that it is salvation that is by grace, salvation is not of our own works, salvation is through faith and salvation is the gift of God.


I have already shown you verses that indicate faith is indeed work. The Greek word translated faith is pistis which means persuasion. Pistis comes from a primary verb peitho. Verbs show action, and action implies faith works. Peitho means to convince by argument. That sounds like work to me. In fact the work of saving faith is to convince or persuade one of the reliance upon Christ for salvation. This is what the Word of God through the power of the Holy Spirit does within the hearts of all who believe through "hearing". Therefore the work involved in bringing us to saving faith is the work of God.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Like I said, faith is not the kind of work that Paul is speaking about in Ephesians 2:9. If it was then that would contradict him saying that we are not saved by works. If faith is the kind of work Paul is talking about in Ephesians 2:8-9 and we're not saved by works, including faith, then that would mean that verses like John 3:16 and Romans 10:9-10 were untrue and should be removed from scripture.

Also, you are misinterpreting John 6:29 and taking it out of context.

John 6
26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Now, you are interpreting this as if it is saying our believing in Christ is God's doing. As if it is God that gives us the faith to believe in Christ. That is not what the verse is saying. You are reading it as if it says "This is the work of God, to give you faith to believe on Him whom He hath sent". You are reading your doctrine into the verse. Read the previous verses. What they are really asking is what it was that God required them to do in order to obtain everlasting life. They asked "what shall we do", not "what shall God do". They were asking how to labor "for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life". Then Jesus answered that they needed to believe on Him whom God had sent. The same answer that Paul and Silas gave to the prison keeper when he asked what he needed to do to be saved (Acts 16:27-34).

Jesus wasn't saying that their believing was God's doing. It was God's requirement and command for them to believe on Him who He had sent. If they truly wanted everlasting life, then that is what they needed to do and there is nothing to suggest that God would do it for them. Just like it says here:

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 John 5
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. God commands "all people everywhere" to repent (Acts 17:30) and to believe on His Son Jesus Christ in order to be saved and obtain everlasting life. This is a decision that every person is expected to make and, whether you like it or not, God does leave it up to each individual to make that decision. He desires that all people would be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Therefore, He did all He had to do in order to provide the way for salvation. He doesn't expect people to make the decision without any help. Not without first giving the world His Word and not without speaking to people's hearts and consciences regarding their sins and need for salvation.

But once people hear the word and are shown that they are sinners in need of salvation they are required to decide whether they want to humble themselves and acknowledge that they are sinners in need of mercy and forgiveness and need Christ to save them or not.


We are not saved by righteous works we do, we are saved by righteous works that God does. That's what you can't seem to understand even though Scripture states it clearly. Repentance and faith aren't the kind of good works that Paul says do not save anyone. Good works are only those things we do AFTER we have already been saved and born of the Spirit. Repentance and faith come BEFORE we are saved and born of the Spirit and before we do any of the good works that God prepared for us to do (Eph 2:10). Those works include the type of things that Jesus describes in Matthew 25:31-46, which has to do with helping "the least of these".


But you ignore that Rev 22:17 speaks of those who hear. Only His sheep "hear" Him, and He gives them, not offers them eternal life.He gives them eternal life only if they repent and believe. You want to remove the responsibility to choose from man but by doing that it would mean that people are condemned for not believing in Christ despite supposedly not ever being given the ability to believe in Christ. That just makes no sense whatsoever.


And you ignore that Jo 3:16 says whosoever believes. I gave you a verse that clearly tells us that believing is the work of God.And I showed you how you misinterpreted that verse.


You also ignore the context of Ro 10:9,10. The context tells us that none can believe unless they hear, and none can hear without the Word, for faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. And why in the parable of the wedding feast was the one cast out? Because he was not clothed in righteousness. Righteousness means to be justified before God. Only God can clothe us in His righteousness unto salvation. We are required to put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. That is what Romans 10:9-10 and John 3:16 teach.


God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe. But again you ignore the fact that unless God does the work to make us believe no man will repent and believe. So, you believe that God commands all people everywhere to do something that He only gives few the ability to do. Your doctrine makes it look like God doesn't know what He's doing.


"Where is the Scripture that compares receiving physical life with receiving eternal life?"

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. What? This passage contrasts being born of the flesh with being born of the Spirit. How does this passage even remotely suggest that being born of the Spirit is analogous to being born of the flesh?

John146
Nov 13th 2008, 04:07 PM
I can’t for the life of me understand why most “Christians” want to take some credit for their salvation. The bible is crystal clear that salvation has nothing to do with our free will, accepting Christ, or our faith. If our faith was required to save us it would mean that God was required to save us because of something we do. We would then have a reason to boast. In the end we would be able to say to God “You needed me after all God! I made you save me because I had faith in you! I am the author of my salvation!” Of course no free willer will admit this but when we break it down to the lowest common denominator, that’s what they are saying. Salvation is not by grace but by works. No, salvation is by grace through faith in Christ.

Mikey says: People are not required to do anything to be saved.

Scripture says:

Acts 16
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

This is the one verse that the whole free will gospel hangs onto to prove their point. “You see! Abraham believed and because of his belief he was saved.” The question is to what is the word “it” referring. Is it refering to Abraham’s belief? No it doesn’t. It refers to the word “righteousness”. Who’s righteousness? Well, when comparing with the rest of scripture it is Christ’s righteousness. You are way off base here. Let's allow scripture to speak for itself.

Romans 4
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Mikey says: It was Christ's righteousness that was counted to Abraham for righteousness.

Scripture says: Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness and the faith of anyone else who "believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly" is also counted for righteousness.


Besides this we are spiritually dead. How can we approach God in spirit when we are spiritually dead? We must worship Him in spirit. A corpse can do nothing. Remember when Jesus raised Lazarus? Why did Jesus raise him in the 1st place? To show a living picture of what salvation is. Did Lazarus believe 1st? I don’t think so. Eze 37 is the valley of dry bones. Another picture of salvation. Did those bones believe 1st? I don’t think so either. There is no reason to compare physical life and death to spiritual life and death. Scripture does not make any analogies between the two so neither should you.


Wait a minute, I know one who believed. Simon the sorcerer believed did he not? Yes he did.

Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Was he saved? I don’t think so. He definitely wasn’t saved. Why? The free willers will say he didn’t really believe. His heart wasn’t right. Well he did believe but he believed of and from himself. “Simon himself believed.” That’s the wrong faith. That’s HIS faith and not Jesus’s faith. Free willers will be right when they say his heart wasn't right before God. God needs to give one a new heart. Is that what is taught here:

Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


What about Paul? He didn’t believe on Jesus either obviously. “Oh he did after Christ appeared to him. That’s why he was saved.” No, he was saved the moment Christ appeared to him. Paul was chosen. Paul didn’t choose Christ.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:He was chosen for a certain purpose. That verse doesn't say he was chosen to salvation. He had a choice of whether to believe in Christ or not just like everyone else. That Christ appeared to him did not make it automatic that he was saved. He already believed in his heart in God and truly wanted to obey God but he was ignorant about Christ because of the teachings of the Pharisees. His understanding of what the Messiah would be like was clouded by the teachings of the Pharisees.

I believe he was different than most of the other Pharisees in that he genuinely wanted to obey God and serve Him but he was ignorant regarding what scripture really taught regarding the Messiah. I believe the Pharisees that Jesus rebuked and called hypocrites had no desire to truly obey God but were instead interested in gaining power and status for themselves.


What about the devils? They definitely believed. “Oh but Jesus didn’t die for any devils.” Absolutely correct. He didn’t. Nor did Christ die for every human being. He came to save HIS PEOPLE. Not everyone.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Remember, faith is a work. No if, ands, or buts about it. We are not saved by our works. Read James 2 carefully. On the suface it seems to say we are. We all know better than that don’t we though. James 2 differentiates between faith and works. If faith was a work then why would James say that faith without works is dead? Faith couldn't possibly be without works if faith itself was the kind of works that James was speaking about or the kind of works that Paul speaks about in Ephesians 2.


RogerW I know that it’s a long lonely road to share truth. Just remember that the world is against you because of the gospel of Jesus. It can be fustrating that people don’t see what is so clear.Agree


Just remember that’s it’s only by the mercy of God that you have truth. God opens whosover’s eye’s He wills and blinds others.You might notice that those who God chooses to open their eyes have already made themselves receptive to the truth while those who He blinds have already blinded themselves. Read Romans 1:18-32 and 2 Thess 2:9-12 for examples of this.

RogerW
Nov 13th 2008, 06:17 PM
I can’t for the life of me understand why most “Christians” want to take some credit for their salvation. The bible is crystal clear that salvation has nothing to do with our free will, accepting Christ, or our faith. If our faith was required to save us it would mean that God was required to save us because of something we do. We would then have a reason to boast. In the end we would be able to say to God “You needed me after all God! I made you save me because I had faith in you! I am the author of my salvation!” Of course no free willer will admit this but when we break it down to the lowest common denominator, that’s what they are saying. Salvation is not by grace but by works.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

This is the one verse that the whole free will gospel hangs onto to prove their point. “You see! Abraham believed and because of his belief he was saved.” The question is to what is the word “it” referring. Is it refering to Abraham’s belief? No it doesn’t. It refers to the word “righteousness”. Who’s righteousness? Well, when comparing with the rest of scripture it is Christ’s righteousness.

Besides this we are spiritually dead. How can we approach God in spirit when we are spiritually dead? We must worship Him in spirit. A corpse can do nothing. Remember when Jesus raised Lazarus? Why did Jesus raise him in the 1st place? To show a living picture of what salvation is. Did Lazarus believe 1st? I don’t think so. Eze 37 is the valley of dry bones. Another picture of salvation. Did those bones believe 1st? I don’t think so either.

Wait a minute, I know one who believed. Simon the sorcerer believed did he not? Yes he did.

Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Was he saved? I don’t think so. He definitely wasn’t saved. Why? The free willers will say he didn’t really believe. His heart wasn’t right. Well he did believe but he believed of and from himself. “Simon himself believed.” That’s the wrong faith. That’s HIS faith and not Jesus’s faith. Free willers will be right when they say his heart wasn't right before God. God needs to give one a new heart.

What about Paul? He didn’t believe on Jesus either obviously. “Oh he did after Christ appeared to him. That’s why he was saved.” No, he was saved the moment Christ appeared to him. Paul was chosen. Paul didn’t choose Christ.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

What about the devils? They definitely believed. “Oh but Jesus didn’t die for any devils.” Absolutely correct. He didn’t. Nor did Christ die for every human being. He came to save HIS PEOPLE. Not everyone.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.


Remember, faith is a work. No if, ands, or buts about it. We are not saved by our works. Read James 2 carefully. On the suface it seems to say we are. We all know better than that don’t we though.

RogerW I know that it’s a long lonely road to share truth. Just remember that the world is against you because of the gospel of Jesus. It can be fustrating that people don’t see what is so clear. Just remember that’s it’s only by the mercy of God that you have truth. God opens whosover’s eye’s He wills and blinds others. It’s only by much prayer and much mercy of God that anyone finds truth. Just some encouragement if you needed it. I sometimes do.

Greetings MikeyO,

You've made some excellent points that unfortunately will be ignored by those of free will...unless, as you say the Spirit opens their eyes and ears to see and hear the truth. Since it is only through the power of the Spirit that any can understand, we look to Him to open the blind eyes and soften the hearts through our steadfast determination to bring the whole truth. Yes, many won't like it, and many will attempt to distort and discredit the message and the messenger, but that cannot stop us from being faithful to what God have graciously given us.

I have to remind myself that I too was once not able to receive the hard truth of God's Soverignty in ALL things...there but by the grace of God go I!

I do thank you for the encouragment. It does help us to keep from being frustrated, just hearing that others too plod along this sometimes lonely road. Thank you too for the feedback on the sermon.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 13th 2008, 06:31 PM
Mikey---Besides this we are spiritually dead. How can we approach God in spirit when we are spiritually dead? We must worship Him in spirit. A corpse can do nothing. Remember when Jesus raised Lazarus? Why did Jesus raise him in the 1st place? To show a living picture of what salvation is. Did Lazarus believe 1st? I don’t think so. Eze 37 is the valley of dry bones. Another picture of salvation. Did those bones believe 1st? I don’t think so either.


Mikey, where does Scripture say we are spiritually dead? You asked what can a corpse do? Let me ask you, did Jesus says you must be resurrected to see the kingdom of heaven or did He say you must be born again? You were born once physically, you must be born again, not resurrected.


Mikey---Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Was he saved? I don’t think so. He definitely wasn’t saved. Why? The free willers will say he didn’t really believe. His heart wasn’t right. Well he did believe but he believed of and from himself. "Simon himself believed." That’s the wrong faith. That’s HIS faith and not Jesus’s faith. Free willers will be right when they say his heart wasn't right before God. God needs to give one a new heart.


You don't believe he was saved??? Why not? He believed and he was baptized, why do you say he wasn't saved?? Now He certainly won't be saved at the judgment because he fell away, but why do you say he was not saved when he met the Scriptural requirements?


Mikey---What about Paul? He didn’t believe on Jesus either obviously. "Oh he did after Christ appeared to him. That’s why he was saved." No, he was saved the moment Christ appeared to him. Paul was chosen. Paul didn’t choose Christ.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:


As was pointed out Paul had the option of whether or not to obey, He states this Himself,

Acts 26:12-19 ( KJV ) 12Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 19Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

Friend of I AM
Nov 13th 2008, 06:32 PM
Oh Lord, the free will debate again. I think most people are under the impression that "free will" means that God does give them some amount of decision making process in whether or not they accept him. Remember the verse - if we deny him, he will deny us. The problem comes with reconciling our will with God's omniscience. I don't think anyone with any mental capacity on this board is able to reconcile this in entirety. We've come up with some pretty good arguments in other threads, but only God knows all the complexities behind this convoluted issue. The bottom line is, with whatever will God has given us, we need to use it to help glorify him as well as uplift one another, instead of tearing each other down. Not really directing this line at anyone here, just something for all of us to think about when having these discussions. God bless in Christ,Stephen

Butch5
Nov 13th 2008, 06:36 PM
Roger,

Here is a link to a post I posted a while ago regardiing this question. The faith of Jesus is the gospel message. When we say we are of "the" faith, we are saying we are of "the" faith of Jesus Christ."

http://thechristiancafe.yuku.com/topic/878/t/Someone-who-knows-Greek.html

RogerW
Nov 13th 2008, 07:09 PM
Oh Lord, the free will debate again. I think most people are under the impression that "free will" means that God does give them some amount of decision making process in whether or not they accept him. Remember the verse - if we deny him, he will deny us. The problem comes with reconciling our will with God's omniscience. I don't think anyone with any mental capacity on this board is able to reconcile this in entirety. We've come up with some pretty good arguments in other threads, but only God knows all the complexities behind this convoluted issue. The bottom line is, with whatever will God has given us, we need to use it to help glorify him as well as uplift one another, instead of tearing each other down. Not really directing this line at anyone here, just something for all of us to think about when having these discussions. God bless in Christ,Stephen

Greetings Friend of I AM,

It is almost a given that when we talk about Biblical doctrine the discussion will eventually turn to that of free will. Why? Because every man born in Adam is born with the belief they have free will in everything until they are taught the truth of God's Sovereignty over ALL things in His creation.

This particular thread was started to show through Biblical proof text that man has not been born with ability to make themselves spiritually alive through their own faith. The question remains, are we saved by grace through our faith, or is faith also given through God's grace. Scripture has convinced myself, and others that salvation from beginning to end is all of the Lord. If I think that my own faith has given me eternal life, then I am fooling myself, because faith is a work, and the only work of faith that saves anyone is Christ's work alone.

These discussions almost always become passionate from both sides, but I don't necessarily agree that they then become a discussion that does not bring glory to God. I don't see the issue of God's saving grace through His saving faith as complex or convoluted. God tells us to study to show ourselves approved unto God, workmen that need not be ashamed, but rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

There would not be any doctrinal division among the church of God unless God allows it to exist. It is when unbiblical doctrine arises that the faithful will search the Word diligently to expose the teaching that does not align with Scripture. That does not mean that every Christian will come to the same conclusion, quite the opposite in fact, but the one thing it does mean is that we have opened His Word, and we are searching the Scripture diligently as He would have us do. Would we be as diligent if no division existed?

While it is true that we need to edify one another, and discuss these differences in love, we must also remain steadfast to proclaim the doctrine we have been convicted is truth. I would rather have discussions with those who I feel are passionate, even if in error, then to try to have a discussion with someone who never opens up the Word of God but has an opinion without any knowledge of the Word of God.

You are right, we should above all else try to remember that we all share in the one body of Christ, therefore share with the right attitude. But, I think when we stop having these discussions over doctrinal differences then we have simply given up the good fight and we may just as well...you fill in the blank.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 13th 2008, 08:08 PM
Butch5,



Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;



Act 8:20-23 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and [in] the bond of iniquity.

Can the bible possibly be any clearer? Pay particular attention to what I underlined. Also your very question is the problem for Simon. He met all scriptural requirements? Well not the one that matters. He needed Christ to have died for him and be ordained to eternal life which he clearly was not. Simon believed and was baptized. All works.



Of course he wasn't disobedient. Why? Because he was saved. A child of God will always strive to obey the commandments of God. It's in their nature now whereas before it was their nature to rebel. Did Paul's act of obedience save him? NO. That came after salvation.

Mikey,

I Used to be a Calvinist, I know all of these arguments. So let's begin,


Mikey---Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Neither of these verses speaks of being Spiritually dead. They speak of being dead is sins. The rich man in Jesus parable was also dead in sins, yet he was alive. Paul uses death here as a metaphor, to show that they could not help themselves. Let's look at what Paul says,


Romans 7:8-13 ( KJV ) 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Paul says he was alive without the law once, so are we to believe that Paul was spiritually alive and then He died spiritually and then He was spiritually alive again? Or how about this, if Paul was chosen before the foundation of the world and was made spiritually alive, how could He then become dead is trespasses and sins? You said in this post that a child of God will always strive to obey God's commands, if this is the case how could Paul become dead in trespasses and sins?


Mikey---Act 8:20-23 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and [in] the bond of iniquity.

Can the bible possibly be any clearer? Pay particular attention to what I underlined. Also your very question is the problem for Simon. He met all scriptural requirements? Well not the one that matters. He needed Christ to have died for him and be ordained to eternal life which he clearly was not. Simon believed and was baptized. All works.



Let's look at a few more verses for context.

Acts 8:13-21 ( KJV ) 13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.




Notice, it says that after Simon believed and was baptized, he continued with Phillip. So, Simon traveled around with Phillip, he saw the signs and wonders that were done. However, he had not yet seen the Holy Spirit. Notice verse 14, it says now when the Apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God they sent Peter and John. So there obviously was a period of time between the time that Simon believed and the time that the Apostles show up in Samaria. Notice Simon saw the signs and miracles that Phillip was doing and nothing is said of his heart not being right with God, yet when He sees that the laying on of hands gives the Holy Spirit, he becomes envious and tries to buy this power from Peter. Obviously his heart at this point is not right with God. Notice what Peter says, you have neither part nor lot in this matter, why? Did Peter say because you have not believed? Does He say because you are not saved? Does he say because you are not baptized? No, He says because your heart is not right before God. So, given that there was some time that elapsed between the time that Simon believed and the when he had this encounter with Peter, it is very plausible that Simon did believe and fell away. So, to say he was never saved is without biblical support. I'm not arguing that He was saved, I am just saying that there is not sufficient evidence to say he was not.





Mikey--- Of course he wasn't disobedient. Why? Because he was saved. A child of God will always strive to obey the commandments of God. It's in their nature now whereas before it was their nature to rebel. Did Paul's act of obedience save him? NO. That came after salvation.




While acts of obedience are not required for initial salvation, they are required to be ultimately saved in the end.




Now, please show Scripture that shows Paul obeyed because he was saved.










Mikey---Did Paul's act of obedience save him? NO. That came after salvation.




Would he have been saved if he disobeyed?

Teke
Nov 13th 2008, 08:39 PM
Hi Teke,

I think it important to make a distinction between that faith that all men have, and saving faith that only elect believers receive. There is a common or saving faith that Scripture speaks of specifically for the elect of God. There is a faith of God's elect in hope of eternal life, promised before the world began. Since the cross this saving faith has been made manifest through preaching of His Word. Paul speaks of this faith as "the common faith", common to all the people of God, a common brotherhood that included Titus, a Gentile, as well as the Jews. This saving faith is called not only "the faith of God's elect", but also "the common faith", "mutual faith", "same spirit of faith", "like precious faith", and "faith delivered unto the saints."
Hey Roger,

I do not see any difference other than that those with the "common", "mutual", "same" faith, are recognized by their unity of faith. A unity which comes with being in the Body of Christ. As the "elect" are only identified by being in that common unity (communion) with The Body.


Yes, this would be our work of faith in sanctification, but not in salvation. Even our righteousness is but filthy rags, so our work of faith cannot be for salvation. A work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, is the faithful work of the elect of God.


Sounds like you equate righteousness with salvation. I believe everyone is working out their salvation living their lives. Even though how they live those lives differs. A "work of faith in sanctification", to me, means keeping one from sin within the Body of Christ, as He is without sin, and His bride the Church is to be spotless (sanctification relates to cleansing/being clean). That we are able to be in His Body is what would achieve righteousness (meaning right with God).
I am relating righteousness with sanctification, as there couldn't be one without the other.


Creation does manifest the natural revelation about God; i.e. He exists, and He is worthy to be worshiped and glorified. However regenerative power of life, which transforms us from spiritual death to spiritual life is supernaturally revealed through the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit.

Hmm, that is one good perspective. I see that "regenerative power of life" as that which just happens under the direction of God.



I would argue we are saved by God's good work, for good works.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


I'd agree with this. Everything God does is good.


Something happened after the fall of man. After the fall man became bound by Satan, sin and death. But the man who is made alive through the indwelling Spirit is no longer bound by Satan, sin and death. What has changed? We are still wearing bodies of death, yet we no longer fear death, and in fact even though our bodies die, we never die...why?

Many Blessings,
RW

Man freely binds himself to whatever he follows after. Such following can come from, fear of death, coveting, lust etc. Actually the procession of sin, according to scripture, flows from his being faced with death. (Heb. 2:15, death having made us subject, or susceptible to bondage. A bondage that we put ourselves in, since it is not of God)

The reason for death, and that it continues for us, is that it is the manner in which God decided to show that evil is not eternal as He is. It is His power which sets the bounds for evil and it's consequences.

In relation to "the fall" you could say we were wounded by love. But not that we are dead. A person wounded by love can feel dead or like they are dying, but they are not.

John146
Nov 13th 2008, 08:43 PM
Greetings MikeyO,

You've made some excellent points that unfortunately will be ignored by those of free willNo, his points were not ignored at all. They were refuted using scripture. Do you agree with what he said regarding Genesis 15:6? He said Christ's righteousness was counted to Abraham for righteousness despite the fact that Romans 4:3-5 says that it was Abraham's own faith that was counted to him for righteousness and also says that the faith of anyone who believes is counted for righteousness.


..unless, as you say the Spirit opens their eyes and ears to see and hear the truth. Since it is only through the power of the Spirit that any can understand, we look to Him to open the blind eyes and soften the hearts through our steadfast determination to bring the whole truth.So, you think my eyes are blind and my heart is hardened, Roger? Such arrogance on your part. Do you think it was the Spirit who gave Mikey his clearly erroneous interpretation of Genesis 15:6?


Yes, many won't like it, and many will attempt to distort and discredit the message and the messenger, but that cannot stop us from being faithful to what God have graciously given us. And many will use scripture to show why your doctrine is false.

RogerW
Nov 14th 2008, 02:08 AM
No, his points were not ignored at all. They were refuted using scripture. Do you agree with what he said regarding Genesis 15:6? He said Christ's righteousness was counted to Abraham for righteousness despite the fact that Romans 4:3-5 says that it was Abraham's own faith that was counted to him for righteousness and also says that the faith of anyone who believes is counted for righteousness.

According to Gen 15:6 God bestowed righteousness on Abraham as a free gift. Abraham's faith rested upon the grace of God, Who reckoned his faith for righteousness. God counted for righteousness that which Abraham received by faith, the righteousness of Christ.

Ro 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

The Lord reckoned/considered/counted Abraham to be that which in and by himself he was not, justified, because of the certainty that the coming Messiah would by means of His sacrifiece secure this great blessing for Abraham and for all who share Abraham's faith.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

From beginning to end, our right standing with God is God's gift of grace. It is appropriated by God-given faith. (Eph 2:8). Therefore to God belongs all the glory. There is no room for human boasting.



So, you think my eyes are blind and my heart is hardened, Roger? Such arrogance on your part. Do you think it was the Spirit who gave Mikey his clearly erroneous interpretation of Genesis 15:6?

I'm sorry you see me as arrogant for bringing the truth. Are your eyes blind and your heart hardened Eric? I believe those who follow the doctrine of free will are deceived, but each individual must examine their own hearts.



And many will use scripture to show why your doctrine is false.

Eric I understand your passion and conviction, and I don't believe for one moment that you believe you are bringing anything but truth. If you can show me through the Scripture that the doctrine of Sovereign Grace is false, I pray that the Spirit will open my eyes and soften my heart to receive it. But in all honesty I don't believe you can show me this, and sadly as I have said many times before free will forces contradiction upon contradiction unto the Word of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Nov 14th 2008, 02:11 AM
Yes I do say it was Christ's righteousness. Why do I say that? Because grammatically in the Hebrew it can refer to nothing else. The word "it" is a feminine pronoun. What is a pronoun? It's a word that modifies a noun. You are saying that the word "it" modifies "believed". You didn't come out and say it but you must be meaning that if you hold the belief you do about this verse. That is wrong. The word it can only modify one other word in the verse and that's "righteousness". It can't modify "believed" because, well believe isn't a noun is it? Its a verb.

In the Greek language we have a similar situation. The pronoun "it" is 3rd person singular. Which can mean it can be translated as he, she, or it. Any word would work if we didn't know what we do. That it's Christ's righteousness that was accounted to Abraham. So instead of "it" the word should be translated as "He". Capital "H" He. So it should look like this.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and HE was counted unto him for righteousness.

Sometimes we do have to look at grammar to find truth. But when we do find truth, how glorious it is.

The "it" of Romans 4:3 is a reference to Genesis 15:6. Abraham believed the "promise" of 12:1, and he continued to believe it in 15:5. Abraham's faith was living and growing, something dynamic. He was made righteous by this faith. Righteousness is the gift of God through Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:17).

Abraham became righteous in the sight of God. Not thru works (human actions designed to attain righteousness), but through faith. When the Son of God came to Abraham in a vision (Gen. 15:1) and Abraham called Him "Lord God" (Gen. 15:2), the Son proclaimed to Abraham His coming in the flesh. "So shall your descendants be" (Gen. 15:5, "descendants" is literally "seed" which is singular, not plural, referring to Christ. see Gal. 3:16). Because Abraham responded in faith he was accounted righteous, or justified (Rom. 4:5)
Such a relationship transforms a person from being ungodly to being made righteous and godly, as was Abraham.

Butch5
Nov 14th 2008, 02:24 AM
Butch5,



I never have been so I really don't know these arguments from their perspective. Believe it or not I was raised Southern Baptist until I came to truth. I was all about free will and accepting Christ as my saviour. Thank God not anymore.


You did not address anything in my post.

RogerW
Nov 14th 2008, 02:41 AM
Hey Roger,

I do not see any difference other than that those with the "common", "mutual", "same" faith, are recognized by their unity of faith. A unity which comes with being in the Body of Christ. As the "elect" are only identified by being in that common unity (communion) with The Body.

Hi Teke,

The point is that only the "elect" are given this common faith. Every man has natural faith, and this natural faith leaves them without excuse. Natural faith through creation reveals the glory of God. No man can say they didn't know God because God through natural faith is made manifest in them. Natural faith or invisible things of God are clearly understood by the things that God has made, including His power and divinity.

Ro 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

All men naturally believe [have faith] in the existance of God, but that which may be known of Christ and His gospel is revealed supernaturally, and only His elect are given this supernatural or common faith unto salvation.



Sounds like you equate righteousness with salvation. I believe everyone is working out their salvation living their lives. Even though how they live those lives differs. A "work of faith in sanctification", to me, means keeping one from sin within the Body of Christ, as He is without sin, and His bride the Church is to be spotless (sanctification relates to cleansing/being clean). That we are able to be in His Body is what would achieve righteousness (meaning right with God).
I am relating righteousness with sanctification, as there couldn't be one without the other.

Unless we are made righteous through Christ, we are NOT saved. Since we have been imputed with the righteousness of Christ unto salvation, which righteousness is the gift of God's grace, we will continue to grow in faith. Sanctification means to make holy, and this too is accomplished through the power of the Word and Spirit. We are sanctified, (made holy) when we become saved.

Ro 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Ac 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.



Hmm, that is one good perspective. I see that "regenerative power of life" as that which just happens under the direction of God.

Regeneration; i.e. being born again, comes through the power of God by the Word and Holy Spirit.



Man freely binds himself to whatever he follows after. Such following can come from, fear of death, coveting, lust etc. Actually the procession of sin, according to scripture, flows from his being faced with death. (Heb. 2:15, death having made us subject, or susceptible to bondage. A bondage that we put ourselves in, since it is not of God)

No man freely chooses to bind themselves. Every son of Adam is born in bondage to Satan, sin and death.



The reason for death, and that it continues for us, is that it is the manner in which God decided to show that evil is not eternal as He is. It is His power which sets the bounds for evil and it's consequences.

Death, both physical and spiritual comes as the consequence of sin. I do agree that God uses sin and evil to display His power and glory unto all men.

Many Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Nov 14th 2008, 03:20 PM
God is spirit

John 4:19 The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.
John 4:20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship."
John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
John 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.

John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things."
John 4:26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am he."

Teke
Nov 14th 2008, 04:09 PM
Hi Teke,

The point is that only the "elect" are given this common faith. Every man has natural faith, and this natural faith leaves them without excuse. Natural faith through creation reveals the glory of God. No man can say they didn't know God because God through natural faith is made manifest in them. Natural faith or invisible things of God are clearly understood by the things that God has made, including His power and divinity.

Ro 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

All men naturally believe [have faith] in the existance of God, but that which may be known of Christ and His gospel is revealed supernaturally, and only His elect are given this supernatural or common faith unto salvation.

But Roger, read on past verse 21. Romans 1:16 to chapter two's theme is the righteousness of God through faith in Christ. It is human nature to worship, if not the uncreated God, then something created. Refusing to worship God, men first turned inward to their own spiritual center without regard for God, cutting themselves off from light. They then lift up created things as objects of worship.

I have a personal understanding of this. My own father kept his daughters from everything but knowledge. It was like being kept in a tower from the world, only what he allowed were we allowed to know. But I always felt and knew there was something more to creation, that there must be a creator. Foolish as this may sound, at a young age I was drawn to something spiritual about water, so I would sit by the lake and talk to that power I thought was there. So I have experienced this turning to our own spiritual center with my faith. That this is what I was doing did not become apparent to me until later when I was older and God revealed His Son to me and I pursued that. Now I am finally able to say that I have found true worship and it's meaning.


Unless we are made righteous through Christ, we are NOT saved. Since we have been imputed with the righteousness of Christ unto salvation, which righteousness is the gift of God's grace, we will continue to grow in faith. Sanctification means to make holy, and this too is accomplished through the power of the Word and Spirit. We are sanctified, (made holy) when we become saved.

While I wouldn't say I was righteous from my example above. I would say that I was trying to work out my salvation in some manner, albeit wrong.
I can agree that "sanctification means to make holy", as "holy" means set apart for God, and sanctified means cleansed by God.
While we may be made holy, when "saved" as you put it (I rather view salvation as a life long process), that doesn't necessarily mean we are sanctified. We must co-operate with God to become sanctified. Note in your John 17:19 verse it says, "might be sanctified through the truth". A person has to be open and willing for this to happen. And the Acts verse is "to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and give you an inheritance" among them sanctified. You have to grow into those shoes so to speak. The 1 Cor. verse confirms this, in that once we are baptized we are then able to receive "the word of His grace" and begin such sanctification. This has been my experience, and confirms it for me.


Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Ac 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.



Regeneration; i.e. being born again, comes through the power of God by the Word and Holy Spirit.

"Born again" for me relates to baptism. Since regeneration isn't the topic of this thread, I stand by what I previously posted, which is that God regenerates, transforms or transfigures the whole of His creation. Else how would I have found God through His Son.


No man freely chooses to bind themselves. Every son of Adam is born in bondage to Satan, sin and death.

We surely do freely choose as Adam did. I have yet to meet any Christian who says God dragged them to Him. Satan only has opportunity when we sin, as sin opens the door for him. Death is but a part of life, not a bondage.


Death, both physical and spiritual comes as the consequence of sin. I do agree that God uses sin and evil to display His power and glory unto all men.

Many Blessings,
RW

I've never felt dead spiritually, even when I was misguided in my understanding and in sin. Evil was something I feared until I met the Lord God. Now I feel no evil because He is with me. (Psalm 23:4) I have also faced physical death by physical experience, but I knew He was there for me, just as somehow I've always known. There is nothing in this world that I can count on except Him.

Peace be with you
Eve

John146
Nov 14th 2008, 04:16 PM
John146,





Yes I do say it was Christ's righteousness. Why do I say that? Because grammatically in the Hebrew it can refer to nothing else. The word "it" is a feminine pronoun. What is a pronoun? It's a word that modifies a noun. You are saying that the word "it" modifies "believed". You didn't come out and say it but you must be meaning that if you hold the belief you do about this verse. That is wrong. The word it can only modify one other word in the verse and that's "righteousness". It can't modify "believed" because, well believe isn't a noun is it? Its a verb.

In the Greek language we have a similar situation. The pronoun "it" is 3rd person singular. Which can mean it can be translated as he, she, or it. Any word would work if we didn't know what we do. That it's Christ's righteousness that was accounted to Abraham. So instead of "it" the word should be translated as "He". Capital "H" He. So it should look like this.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and HE was counted unto him for righteousness.

Sometimes we do have to look at grammar to find truth. But when we do find truth, how glorious it is.You are completely ignoring Romans 4:5, which refutes what you're saying beyond the shadow of a doubt.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

It couldn't be more clear. This is saying that it is the faith of anyone who "believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly" that is counted for righteousness. Therefore, it was Abraham's faith that was counted unto him for righteousness.

John146
Nov 14th 2008, 04:46 PM
According to Gen 15:6 God bestowed righteousness on Abraham as a free gift. Abraham's faith rested upon the grace of God, Who reckoned his faith for righteousness. God counted for righteousness that which Abraham received by faith, the righteousness of Christ.

Ro 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

The Lord reckoned/considered/counted Abraham to be that which in and by himself he was not, justified, because of the certainty that the coming Messiah would by means of His sacrifiece secure this great blessing for Abraham and for all who share Abraham's faith.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

From beginning to end, our right standing with God is God's gift of grace. It is appropriated by God-given faith. (Eph 2:8). Therefore to God belongs all the glory. There is no room for human boasting. I see that you, too, are in complete denial of what Romans 4:5 clearly says. It says clearly that it is the faith of anyone "that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly" which is counted for righteousness. It couldn't be more clear. No amount of rhetoric and twisting and spinning of the scripture can make it say otherwise.


I'm sorry you see me as arrogant for bringing the truth.No, you are arrogant for saying that your spiritual eyes are open while those who disagree with you are blinded. Who are you to say that? I don't care if you have that opinion, but it is not appropriate to state such a thing as if it was fact. You don't know my heart or the hearts of others who disagree with you, so don't act as if you do.


Are your eyes blind and your heart hardened Eric?No, they are not.


I believe those who follow the doctrine of free will are deceived, but each individual must examine their own hearts. And I believe those who follow your doctrine are deceived into thinking that God predetermined who would believe and who would not, which can easily lead someone to think that we have no responsibility to make any choices and therefore it doesn't really matter what we do because God already predetermined it. This kind of attitude discourages prayer and evangelism and promotes an elitist attitude that says "Thank you, Lord, for choosing me to salvation and not making me like the others who you did not choose to salvation and instead chose to not have any chance at salvation so that they would be punished for eternity in the lake of fire".

Your doctrine also denies clear scripture that says God desires all people to repent and to be saved. You try to say that you believe those things, but if you really did then you would acknowledge that those facts would mean that God would want to give everyone a chance to be saved.


Eric I understand your passion and conviction, and I don't believe for one moment that you believe you are bringing anything but truth. If you can show me through the Scripture that the doctrine of Sovereign Grace is false, I pray that the Spirit will open my eyes and soften my heart to receive it.I already have repeatedly and it's clear that your mind is completely made up on this issue. But I'm not here to convince you to agree with me, but to share what I believe is the truth so that people who are undecided on this issue can take all of the information we share as a whole and make up their own minds.


But in all honesty I don't believe you can show me this, and sadly as I have said many times before free will forces contradiction upon contradiction unto the Word of God. I have shown you this, but your mind is made up so even when I show clear scripture that refutes your view, you come up with fancy ways to deny it.

I have shown how your doctrine forces scripture to contradict itself repeatedly. Scripture says that God desires all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Your doctrine says that God desired only to save (relatively) few. Scripture says that God wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) while your doctrine says that God only gives few the ability to repent.

Scripture says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and instead wants them to turn from their evil ways before it's too late (Ezekiel 18:23, Ezekiel 33:11, Isaiah 55:6-7, etc.). Your doctrine says that everything is done according to God's good pleasure with man not having the responsibility of choice in the matter of salvation. This means that your doctrine says that the death of the wicked is pleasing to God because it pleased Him to not give them a chance to repent, believe and be saved.

Friend of I AM
Nov 14th 2008, 05:08 PM
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

How can Abraham's faith be counted for righteousness? It's a work. Scripture clearly teaches us this. We are not saved by works.

Remember a work of God is faith in itself(John 6:29), thus faith is a work...but not of man..of God. Faith of course comes from God, but it is given to each man by God to a certain measure(Romans 12:3). With the faith that God had given Abraham, he could have chosen not to believe God, and stated that he wouldn't given up his son...but he didn't...thus his faith(or the faith that God had given him..semantics really) was credited to him as righteousnous based on the way in which he used it, he chose to obey God.

God bless,

Stephen

John146
Nov 14th 2008, 05:43 PM
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

How can Abraham's faith be counted for righteousness? It's a work. Scripture clearly teaches us this. We are not saved by works. I can quote the scriptures that state we are not saved by works. I don't think there's any need to because we all know this.

I am not ignoring Rom 4:5. It actually proves what I've been saying. When compared with what I just told you about what "it" refers to and what the passage I just quoted above says, there can be no doubt who's faith it's referring to. I like that you put in bold solution to this discussion we are having. "his faith". Who's faith is "his faith" referring to? None other than Jesus Christ's faith. Let me be so bold as to quote the passage as it is really meant to be interpreted.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, Christ's faith is counted for righteousness. It says "his faith". Whose? All you have to do is read what comes before that. It's clearly referring to the faith of anyone who "believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly". Abraham is among those who "believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly".


It can be no other way. You say I ignored Rom 4 but you are ignoring the fact that grammatically, in the original Hebrew, "it" can't possibly be referring to Abraham's faith. You know it's true because I know that you would be diligent enough to check it out for yourself. As any Christian would do. We should be diligent enough to compare scripture with scripture and I did do that without changing any text. You, on the other hand, took it upon yourself to change the clear meaning of the text in Romans 4:5. You changed it from the faith of any person who ""believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly" to "Christ's faith". The word "his" in that verse points back to "him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly".

RogerW
Nov 14th 2008, 05:58 PM
I see that you, too, are in complete denial of what Romans 4:5 clearly says. It says clearly that it is the faith of anyone "that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly" which is counted for righteousness. It couldn't be more clear. No amount of rhetoric and twisting and spinning of the scripture can make it say otherwise.

Ro 4:16 " Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,".

How can faith be by grace if it comes from ourselves?

1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

We all, like Paul, are in unbelief and unworthy. What does it mean that Christ enabled him, and counted him faithful enough to put into the ministry? "Enabled" means that the strength does not come from Paul, who is in unbelief. How can he be counted faithful? The translation of "faithful" comes from a primary verb that means properly, to lead; by implication, to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specially) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce:--be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.

Paul acknowledges his gratitude to Christ for having imparted strength to him, judging him to be trustworthy or reliable, and appointing him to the ministry. Paul looked not at what was in himself but at what the Lord's grace was doing within him. The enabling, the favorable judging, and the appointing were simultaneous. The grace of our Lord abundantly supplies faith and love which is in Him, not in Paul, and not in us, prior to salvation.

The phrase "with faith and love" indicates the effect of grace in Paul's heart and life. Both faith and love are divine gifts of God's grace in us. It has been said that "grace is the root, faith and love are the trunk, and good works are the fruit of the tree of salvation". All of the Lord, none of man...salvation is of the Lord alone. Faith and love are found in Christ Jesus alone, and they are centered in Him, and flow to His people from Him.

Again, how can faith be of grace and come from within sinners?

Many Blessings,
RW

Friend of I AM
Nov 14th 2008, 06:25 PM
Thank you for the input. I would agree normally with your interpretation but there are 2 types of work in the bible. The work of God and our work. Does faith come from God? Yes, i agree with that. But there is also our work too. We all have inherit faith to some degree in and of ourselves as you stated. Everyone believes in something. But when we try to obey any commands within the bible, it is work that we are doing.

Did God give Abraham faith so he could believe in God and thus get saved? In my growth in the scriptures I did for a short time believe this was the case. Comes down to what came 1st, the chicken or the egg? Did faith produce salvation or did salvation produce faith. Saving faith that is.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

From this passage we can't help but deduce that (saving) faith comes after salvation.

Thx for you comment. It made me think a bit but I have to let scripture show me the answer.

Michael

No problem. It does get confusing after a bit. I'm thinking the saving faith in itself always comes from God and is a work of God. Regarding the chicken egg, I would think the faith is always present..since when we are faithless..he is faithful. Think of Peter sinking in the water. Peter really didn't do any work to save himself in that scenario. Of course one could argue that this is more of an attribute of God's mercy, as oppossed to his faith. Perhaps it possibly represents both. Whatever the case, the Lord is definitely the only savior of men. Despite what measure of faith they have, or how many works they have accomplished within their lives.

God bless,

Stephen

RogerW
Nov 14th 2008, 06:26 PM
Remember a work of God is faith in itself(John 6:29), thus faith is a work...but not of man..of God. Faith of course comes from God, but it is given to each man by God to a certain measure(Romans 12:3). With the faith that God had given Abraham, he could have chosen not to believe God, and stated that he wouldn't given up his son...but he didn't...thus his faith(or the faith that God had given him..semantics really) was credited to him as righteousnous based on the way in which he used it, he chose to obey God.

God bless,

Stephen

Greetings Stephen,

I agree that faith comes from God, and that faith is a work. Therefore, as you have said saving faith is the work of God.

What was the promise God made to Abraham, and he believed God so it was imputed to him for righteousness? There was really no choice at all in this promise to Abraham other than to believe or not believe God. The promise was that he would be a father in his old age, and through his Seed the father of many nations.

Ro 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Ro 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Ro 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Ro 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Ro 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Ro 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

If God gives life to the dead, can He not also give life to Sarah's dead womb? Can He not also give spiritual life to spiritually dead sinners? Can He not raise our bodies from the grave?

What Abraham believed in was hope. His hope was in the promise of God; Abraham's expectation of becoming a father of nations of believers rested completely on the Word of God! He believed God and hoped for the very thing that God said would come to pass. Our hope of redemption is not merely a wish or desire, but expectation based upon the promise of God and the purchase of the Son.

2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
2Th 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Salvation is of the Lord. It is not merely semantics that God gives us faith unto salvation, because if our faith is not given from His faith, His righteousness, His goodness, it is not saving faith at all.

Many Blessings,
RW

Friend of I AM
Nov 14th 2008, 06:34 PM
Greetings Stephen,
Salvation is of the Lord. It is not merely semantics that God gives us faith unto salvation, because if our faith is not given from His faith, His righteousness, His goodness, it is not saving faith at all.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hey Roger,

Oh I agree with you for the most part. I was talking about the faith issue being semantical from a standpoint of how it was used by an individual, not who was ultimately the original giver of it. We know that faith(or saving faith) comes from God. He gives each a measure of faith. So if someone says by chance "his faith" most likely one will always logically think that this is some measure of faith God has given to an individual in the salvation process. I think sometimes we can get caught up with wording, and miss the overall message of salvation as it pertains to man. Ultimately it is indeed a work of God that a man becomes saved.

God bless,

Stephen

John146
Nov 14th 2008, 06:43 PM
Ro 4:16 " Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,".

How can faith be by grace if it comes from ourselves?

1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

We all, like Paul, are in unbelief and unworthy. What does it mean that Christ enabled him, and counted him faithful enough to put into the ministry? "Enabled" means that the strength does not come from Paul, who is in unbelief. How can he be counted faithful? The translation of "faithful" comes from a primary verb that means properly, to lead; by implication, to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specially) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce:--be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.

Paul acknowledges his gratitude to Christ for having imparted strength to him, judging him to be trustworthy or reliable, and appointing him to the ministry. Paul looked not at what was in himself but at what the Lord's grace was doing within him. The enabling, the favorable judging, and the appointing were simultaneous. The grace of our Lord abundantly supplies faith and love which is in Him, not in Paul, and not in us, prior to salvation.

The phrase "with faith and love" indicates the effect of grace in Paul's heart and life. Both faith and love are divine gifts of God's grace in us. It has been said that "grace is the root, faith and love are the trunk, and good works are the fruit of the tree of salvation". All of the Lord, none of man...salvation is of the Lord alone. Faith and love are found in Christ Jesus alone, and they are centered in Him, and flow to His people from Him.

Again, how can faith be of grace and come from within sinners?

Many Blessings,
RWYou always want to dodge the issue. It's not surprising that you'd want to turn attention away from Romans 4:3-5 if you could because your doctrine contradicts what it says. I'm more than willing to respond to what you've said here, but let's finish discussing whose faith Romans 4:3-5 is referring to and then we can move on from there.

Are you still trying to say that it is referring to Christ's faith in that passage and that Abraham's faith was not counted to him for righteousness? In other words, are you still trying to say "his faith" is "Christ's faith" instead of the faith of anyone like Abraham who "believeth on him who justifieth the ungodly"?

When it says "Abraham believed God" it means Abraham had faith in God. Agree? Then it says "and it was counted to him for righteousness". What is "it" that was counted for righteousness? Obviously, Abraham's faith. Then when it says in Romans 4:5 that "his faith is counted for righteousness" how can it be referring to anything but what immediately precedes it, which refers to "him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly"? The "his" in "his faith" is clearly a reference to "him that worketh not, but believeth...".

Partaker of Christ
Nov 14th 2008, 06:52 PM
I see that you, too, are in complete denial of what Romans 4:5 clearly says. It says clearly that it is the faith of anyone "that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly" which is counted for righteousness. It couldn't be more clear. No amount of rhetoric and twisting and spinning of the scripture can make it say otherwise.

Even though it is our own faith, it is faith that is given by God.

All that we are, and all that we have, all that we do, is given by God.

Psa 139:1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
Psa 139:2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar.
Psa 139:3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
Psa 139:4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
Psa 139:5 You have enclosed me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
Psa 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
Psa 139:10 Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
Psa 139:11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night,"
Psa 139:12 Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You.
Psa 139:13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.
Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
Psa 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
Psa 139:17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
Psa 139:18 If I should count them, they would outnumber the sand. When I awake, I am still with You.

RogerW
Nov 14th 2008, 07:02 PM
You always want to dodge the issue. It's not surprising that you'd want to turn attention away from Romans 4:3-5 if you could because your doctrine contradicts what it says. I'm more than willing to respond to what you've said here, but let's finish discussing whose faith Romans 4:3-5 is referring to and then we can move on from there.

Are you still trying to say that it is referring to Christ's faith in that passage and that Abraham's faith was not counted to him for righteousness? In other words, are you still trying to say "his faith" is "Christ's faith" instead of the faith of anyone like Abraham who "believeth on him who justifieth the ungodly"?

When it says "Abraham believed God" it means Abraham had faith in God. Agree? Then it says "and it was counted to him for righteousness". What is "it" that was counted for righteousness? Obviously, Abraham's faith. Then when it says in Romans 4:5 that "his faith is counted for righteousness" how can it be referring to anything but what immediately precedes it, which refers to "him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly"? The "his" in "his faith" is clearly a reference to "him that worketh not, but believeth...".

Eric,

Both Ro 4:16 and now also 1Ti 1:12-14 show that faith is by grace. Either we accept that Ro 4:3-5 MUST confirm what is clearly written or we cause contradiction. Are you denying what Ro 4:16 plainly states, "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace" ? You may continue to cling to your understanding that Ro 4:5 says Abraham's faith justified him before God, but if you do you have to reconcile how faith is by grace and how it can also be Abraham's own faith that justifies him before God.

Do we have righteousness of faith prior to receiving the promise?

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

You have been shown how Ro 4:5 is to be interpreted so that it harmonizes with all of Scripture. There is no need to continue to repeat the same things. Show me how you harmonize the Scripture through your understanding that saving faith originates from spiritually dead sinners?

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Nov 14th 2008, 07:59 PM
Hey Roger,

Oh I agree with you for the most part. I was talking about the faith issue being semantical from a standpoint of how it was used by an individual, not who was ultimately the original giver of it. We know that faith(or saving faith) comes from God. He gives each a measure of faith. So if someone says by chance "his faith" most likely one will always logically think that this is some measure of faith God has given to an individual in the salvation process. I think sometimes we can get caught up with wording, and miss the overall message of salvation as it pertains to man. Ultimately it is indeed a work of God that a man becomes saved.

God bless,

Stephen

Good posts Stephan.:)
That overall message is important. Both grace and faith are uncreated energies with which we participate with God in His creation.

Somebody mentioned the chicken egg thing, and since I've been in the "mutation" thread in A&E it had me thinking :hmm:. The chicken came first for sure. Man was created first and by that creation did faith come to that which is created. Everything God created had life and procreated. So we could say that God's grace being part of the creation of man produced faith (whether that fruit was fruitful or not) from man. A faith which of course is to be directed to God alone.

Following that line of thought, grace comes first, as grace is of God, but faith is of us. The message being that these are the things which work together for our salvation. :)


....it can also be Abraham's own faith that justifies him before God.

It's how he used that faith Roger.

Peace be with you
Eve

RogerW
Nov 14th 2008, 08:19 PM
Good posts Stephan.:)
That overall message is important. Both grace and faith are uncreated energies with which we participate with God in His creation.

Somebody mentioned the chicken egg thing, and since I've been in the "mutation" thread in A&E it had me thinking :hmm:. The chicken came first for sure. Man was created first and by that creation did faith come to that which is created. Everything God created had life and procreated. So we could say that God's grace being part of the creation of man produced faith (whether that fruit was fruitful or not) from man. A faith which of course is to be directed to God alone.

Following that line of thought, grace comes first, as grace is of God, but faith is of us. The message being that these are the things which work together for our salvation. :)

It's how he used that faith Roger.

Peace be with you
Eve

Greetings Eve,

How does God's saving faith through grace work in the believer?

Many Blessings,
RW

threebigrocks
Nov 14th 2008, 08:27 PM
I would rather have discussions with those who I feel are passionate, even if in error, ....

You are right, we should above all else try to remember that we all share in the one body of Christ, therefore share with the right attitude. But, I think when we stop having these discussions over doctrinal differences then we have simply given up the good fight and we may just as well...you fill in the blank.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger, this is a very curious statement here.

We most definitely do share in one body of Christ. We ought to share with the right attitude as we are all under Christ and His righteousness. His sacrafice is what allows us to come to Him and have the hope of salvation. All who believe are covered by His blood and we are not separate by any means. That is the one body, one church and one Lord.

I agree with that, no doubt.

But if we start taking sides and discuss without hearing each other, what does that say about our salvation? Is Christ divided?

Johnn 17 is powerful, as Christ prays for us, the sinners He came to save.

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

This, I will admit is what makes my heart ache for the church. Please, let's discuss, let's enjoy others perspectives, but really in these days - and I mean everyone who believes in Christ, can we afford to not see the value in each other and realize that the other guy isn't always wrong? Christ wants each of us individually and us as a whole to be a light to the world.

Not saying this isn't a civil discussion, not saying anyone is out of line - just taking some wise words and trying to bridge a division.

Teke
Nov 14th 2008, 09:01 PM
Greetings Eve,

How does God's saving faith through grace work in the believer?

Many Blessings,
RW

Hey Roger,
Is this a trick question.<JK>:D
Hmm, let's see, because we have faith we have access to grace (Rom. 5:2)
I mean God doesn't need faith, we do. Since he supplies our needs in this world, we have faith. It's just a matter of us responding to His grace with our faith.

I'm trying to keep this simple since I've been told that sometimes my posts are hard to understand (so technical at times it goes right over the head of the person I'm responding to, for instance if I explain it in Greek :saint:). For things such as grace and faith I think what is most important to understand is that these things are uncreated energies that respond to each other/work together, to bring about our salvation. A synergy.

Get my drift?:)


Peace be with you
Eve


some explanatory quotes

...we have never achieved anything good on our own, but all good things are ours from God by grace, and come as it were from nothingness into being. For 'what do you have which you did not receive?' asks St. Paul - receive, that is, freely from God; 'and if you received it, why do you boast as if you had not received it' (I Cor. 4:7), but had achieved it by yourself? Yet by yourself you cannot achieve anything, for the Lord has said: 'Without Me, you can do nothing' (John 15:5)." St. Peter of Damascus

A man by himself working and toiling at freedom from sinful desires achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself to be very eager and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. God works together with willing souls. But if the person abandons his eagerness, the spirit from God is also restrained. To save the unwilling is the act of one using compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace. 190 AD St. Clement of Alexandria

Human effort is profitless...without help from above, but no one receives such help unless he himself chooses to make an effort. We need always both things, we need the human and the divine, ascetic practice and spiritual knowledge, fear and hope, inward grief and solace, fearfulness and humility, discrimination and love." St. Peter of Damascus

Butch5
Nov 14th 2008, 09:39 PM
Mikey---As you stated, death is a metaphor. Well, here to is the word alive. He is simply saying that when the law was given, he died in his sins. Because without the law, sin isn't sin. Remember sin is transgression of the law. But when was the law 1st given? You would say with Moses probably. That would be incorrect. The law was 1st given in the garden of eden when God told Adam not to eat of the tree. Was it the law as we know it today? No. But none the less it was spoken by God and therefore must be obeyed. Adam didn't obey. One simple command and one tragic fall. Where was Paul in all this? In the loins of Adam. Where were all of us?
In the loins of Adam. Paul and all of us effectively died spiritually in the garden.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Paul died in His sins before He was alive??? How then could he be alive. The law was given to Moses not Adam, sorry. And Romans 5:19 does not say we are sinners because we wee in Adam's loins, I wasn't in Adam's loins and neither was Paul, Romans 5:19 refers to Adam disobeying God and falling under the power of Satan. That is why we are all sinners because of Adam. You have some fanciful interpretations there, would mind going to Scripture and show just how that is?






Mikey---Obviously you believe that we can lose our salvation. Simon could not have acted the way he did if he were a true believer. Comes down to once saved always saved issue which i AM NOT going to get into here. It's not what the thread is about anyway. You said it all when you said he believed and then fell away. He believed of himself and because of such he couldn't possibly have been saved.

Can you show me where in Scripture we find this ability to "believe of ourselves"? You either believe or you don't. How do you know how Simon could or could not have acted?


Mikey---There's plenty of biblical info that says he wasn't saved. Check my previous post for all the areas I underlined. You can't possibly think that at that point in time he could possibly be saved. No way. It's clear. Could he have been saved at some later period in time? Yea sure. But God gave us this account to show that being baptized and believing doesn't save.

I've already shown where your explanation falls short.




Mikey---Wow. Once again we are getting into OSAS. But short answer is we will obey as much as possible if we are saved.

As much as is possible? If it is God that is keeping the believer, why then isn't it perfect obedience? Surely if God is keeping one, then that one could live a sinless life.



Mikey---I think I already given enough evidence to support this. "a chosen vessel" remember?


Chosen for what?


Acts 9:15 ( KJV ) 15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:


Mikey---Hypothetically, yes. In the end he would have ended up obeying anyway. That's what believers do. Remember Jonah? True believer but disobeyed at 1st. Didn't stop him from being saved though.


That's what believers do? Can you show that from Scriptures.

Teke
Nov 14th 2008, 09:49 PM
Where was Paul in all this? In the loins of Adam. Where were all of us?
In the loins of Adam. Paul and all of us effectively died spiritually in the garden

So Adam was impotent. :lol:
Remember he is the earthly man, so that doesn't make everyone spiritually dead. ;)
God is the life giving Spirit of all life.

RogerW
Nov 14th 2008, 09:52 PM
Roger, this is a very curious statement here.

We most definitely do share in one body of Christ. We ought to share with the right attitude as we are all under Christ and His righteousness. His sacrafice is what allows us to come to Him and have the hope of salvation. All who believe are covered by His blood and we are not separate by any means. That is the one body, one church and one Lord.

I agree with that, no doubt.

But if we start taking sides and discuss without hearing each other, what does that say about our salvation? Is Christ divided?

Johnn 17 is powerful, as Christ prays for us, the sinners He came to save.

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

This, I will admit is what makes my heart ache for the church. Please, let's discuss, let's enjoy others perspectives, but really in these days - and I mean everyone who believes in Christ, can we afford to not see the value in each other and realize that the other guy isn't always wrong? Christ wants each of us individually and us as a whole to be a light to the world.

Not saying this isn't a civil discussion, not saying anyone is out of line - just taking some wise words and trying to bridge a division.

Greetings TBR,

These discussions are about doctrinal differences. You seem to be saying, "lets just all get along, and agree to disagree agreeably". I engage in these discussions for the purpose of coming to agreement in doctrine. What do you suppose Paul meant when he warns us of the wolves that enter in among the church, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after themselves?

Ac 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Ac 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Ac 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Ac 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

When we are in agreement in doctrine, there is no division, but when we disagree, having opposing interpretation, we can both be wrong, or one is wrong and the other is right, because the Bible does not contradict. Of course we expose teaching that we have come to believe does not harmonize with all of Scripture. Knowing that we have wolves in sheeps clothing coming into the flock, and some depart from the faith, following doctrines of devils, would you really not want to be warned? Should I not tell you when I see you are not rightly dividing the Word? I want to be told when I have not properly understood.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Discussions on doctrinal differences are not the problem, the problems with these discussions arise out of pride. I know I must check pride in my own life. No one man has a corner on all truth. But when we are convicted through diligent study, prayer and conviction of Spirit that one is coming with an unbiblical doctrine, I believe we are called to sound a warning. Some will receive what we say in gratitude and love, others will show that we have misapplied or overlooked a verse or two that needs to be considered, others will show why we are totally wrong, and then there are those who will not budge, and continue to argue against the Word regardless of being shown that their interpretation causes contradiction into the Word of God.

But we must take the side of truth we have been convicted of. We can stand for the truth as we have so learned, or we can remain silent, and just agree to disagree, and all get along crying peace, peace when there is no peace. We are called to give a reason for the hope that is in us.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 14th 2008, 09:55 PM
Even though it is our own faith, it is faith that is given by God.

All that we are, and all that we have, all that we do, is given by God.

Psa 139:1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
Psa 139:2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar.
Psa 139:3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
Psa 139:4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
Psa 139:5 You have enclosed me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
Psa 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
Psa 139:10 Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
Psa 139:11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night,"
Psa 139:12 Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You.
Psa 139:13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.
Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
Psa 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
Psa 139:17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
Psa 139:18 If I should count them, they would outnumber the sand. When I awake, I am still with You.Yes, God forms us and determines when we are conceived and when we die. There is nothing in there that suggests that God predetermines people to either salvation or damnation without using any criteria such as whether they repent and believe in Christ or not. We are not puppets and are expected to make decisions regarding who we want to serve and give our lives to. You are reading a lot into that text that isn't there.

explicar
Nov 14th 2008, 10:01 PM
This may have already been brought up (didn't have time to read whole post in detail), so I apologise if its a duplicate. The NET bible has a very interesting note on "the faith of Christ" which they translate "faithfulness of Christ". here's the note from Gal. 2.15

Or “faith in Jesus Christ.” A decision is difficult here. Though traditionally translated “faith in Jesus Christ,” an increasing number of NT scholars are arguing that πίστις Χριστοῦ (pisti" Cristou) and similar phrases in Paul (here and in v. 20 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Gal&chapter=2&verse=20); Rom 3:22, 26 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Rom+3:22,+26); Gal 3:22 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Gal&chapter=3&verse=22); Eph 3:12 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Eph&chapter=3&verse=12); Phil 3:9 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Phi&chapter=3&verse=9)) involve a subjective genitive and mean “Christ’s faith” or “Christ’s faithfulness” (cf., e.g., G. Howard, “The ‘Faith of Christ’,” ExpTim 85 [1974]: 212-15; R. B. Hays, The Faith of Jesus Christ [SBLDS]; Morna D. Hooker, “Πίστις Χριστοῦ,” NTS 35 [1989]: 321-42). Noteworthy among the arguments for the subjective genitive view is that when πίστις takes a personal genitive it is almost never an objective genitive (cf. Matt 9:2, 22, 29 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php); Mark 2:5; 5:34; 10:52 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Mark+2:5;+5:34;+10:52); Luke 5:20; 7:50; 8:25, 48; 17:19; 18:42; 22:32 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Luke+5:20;+7:50;+8:25,+48;+17: 19;+18:42;+22:32); Rom 1:8; 12; 3:3; 4:5, 12, 16 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Rom+1:8;+12;+3:3;+4:5,+12,+16) ; 1 Cor 2:5; 15:14, 17 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=1+Cor+2:5;+15:14,+17); 2 Cor 10:15 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=2Co&chapter=10&verse=15); Phil 2:17 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Phi&chapter=2&verse=17); Col 1:4; 2:5 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Col+1:4;+2:5); 1 Thess 1:8; 3:2, 5, 10 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=1+Thess+1:8;+3:2,+5,+10); 2 Thess 1:3 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=2Th&chapter=1&verse=3); Titus 1:1 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Tit&chapter=1&verse=1); Phlm 6; 1 Pet 1:9, 21 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=1+Pet+1:9,+21); 2 Pet 1:5 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=2Pe&chapter=1&verse=5)). On the other hand, the objective genitive view has its adherents: A. Hultgren, “The Pistis Christou Formulations in Paul,” NovT 22 (1980): 248-63; J. D. G. Dunn, “Once More, ΠΙΣΤΙΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΥ,” SBL Seminar Papers, 1991, 730-44. Most commentaries on Romans and Galatians usually side with the objective view.
sn On the phrase translated the faithfulness of Christ, ExSyn 116, which notes that the grammar is not decisive, nevertheless suggests that “the faith/faithfulness of Christ is not a denial of faith in Christ as a Pauline concept (for the idea is expressed in many of the same contexts, only with the verb πιστεύω rather than the noun), but implies that the object of faith is a worthy object, for he himself is faithful.” Though Paul elsewhere teaches justification by faith, this presupposes that the object of our faith is reliable and worthy of such faith.

John146
Nov 14th 2008, 10:12 PM
Eric,

Both Ro 4:16 and now also 1Ti 1:12-14 show that faith is by grace. Either we accept that Ro 4:3-5 MUST confirm what is clearly written or we cause contradiction. Are you denying what Ro 4:16 plainly states, "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace" ?I don't deny what Romans 4:3-5 states, which is that Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness as well as the faith of everyone who "believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly". Therefore, with that clear scripture as a guide, we can easily conclude that the faith that Romans 4:16 is speaking about is our faith. We are saved by God's grace through our faith. Without God's grace in loving the whole world, we would not have the opportunity to believe in Christ and obtain everlasting life. God desires all people to repent and to be saved and He graciously made the way for people to be saved by having His Son die as the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. That is the fact that your doctrine denies.


You may continue to cling to your understanding that Ro 4:5 says Abraham's faith justified him before God,I will always continue to hold that view because it couldn't possibly be more clear. Abraham believed God, which means Abraham had faith in God. And it was counted for righteousness. What was? Obviously, Abraham's faith, what else?


but if you do you have to reconcile how faith is by grace and how it can also be Abraham's own faith that justifies him before God.

Do we have righteousness of faith prior to receiving the promise?

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. The promise is to all who have faith in Christ.

Galatians 3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

How do we become Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise? By having faith in Christ Jesus. It couldn't be more clear. Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). You say we don't have our own faith, so I guess you believe it is impossible for us to please God.


You have been shown how Ro 4:5 is to be interpreted so that it harmonizes with all of Scripture.Not by you


There is no need to continue to repeat the same things. Show me how you harmonize the Scripture through your understanding that saving faith originates from spiritually dead sinners? I've explained several times that being spiritually dead does not mean one is unable to make a moral decision. If you didn't pay attention when I've explained it before, there's no reason to think you would now.

Let's look at it from this angle. Can you explain why Paul spent hours and hours and even days trying to persuade, convince and reason with spiritually dead people to believe the gospel if saving faith is just given to people? Why would any persuasion and convincing be necessary if people are not required to make a decision?

Acts 17
1Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
5But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

Acts 18
1After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
2And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.
3And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
4And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
5And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
6And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Paul told these people who would not be persuaded of the truth that their blood would be upon their own heads. Why? Because they alone are responsible for not believing the truth. It isn't that they couldn't believe the truth as a result of God not giving them the ability. They willfully refused to believe it and accept it (Matt 22:3, Matt 22:37-38).

Partaker of Christ
Nov 14th 2008, 11:17 PM
Yes, God forms us and determines when we are conceived and when we die. There is nothing in there that suggests that God predetermines people to either salvation or damnation without using any criteria such as whether they repent and believe in Christ or not. We are not puppets and are expected to make decisions regarding who we want to serve and give our lives to. You are reading a lot into that text that isn't there.

Well, it is not the first time you have said that to me, is it John.

Psa 139:13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.
Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
Psa 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

What is it to be "formed my inward parts"

to be: "fearfully and wonderfully made"

to be: "skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth"

Teke
Nov 15th 2008, 12:19 AM
This may have already been brought up (didn't have time to read whole post in detail), so I apologise if its a duplicate. The NET bible has a very interesting note on "the faith of Christ" which they translate "faithfulness of Christ". here's the note from Gal. 2.15

Or “faith in Jesus Christ.” A decision is difficult here. Though traditionally translated “faith in Jesus Christ,” an increasing number of NT scholars are arguing that πίστις Χριστοῦ (pisti" Cristou) and similar phrases in Paul (here and in v. 20 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Gal&chapter=2&verse=20); Rom 3:22, 26 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Rom+3:22,+26); Gal 3:22 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Gal&chapter=3&verse=22); Eph 3:12 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Eph&chapter=3&verse=12); Phil 3:9 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Phi&chapter=3&verse=9)) involve a subjective genitive and mean “Christ’s faith” or “Christ’s faithfulness” (cf., e.g., G. Howard, “The ‘Faith of Christ’,” ExpTim 85 [1974]: 212-15; R. B. Hays, The Faith of Jesus Christ [SBLDS]; Morna D. Hooker, “Πίστις Χριστοῦ,” NTS 35 [1989]: 321-42). Noteworthy among the arguments for the subjective genitive view is that when πίστις takes a personal genitive it is almost never an objective genitive (cf. Matt 9:2, 22, 29 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php); Mark 2:5; 5:34; 10:52 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Mark+2:5;+5:34;+10:52); Luke 5:20; 7:50; 8:25, 48; 17:19; 18:42; 22:32 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Luke+5:20;+7:50;+8:25,+48;+17: 19;+18:42;+22:32); Rom 1:8; 12; 3:3; 4:5, 12, 16 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Rom+1:8;+12;+3:3;+4:5,+12,+16) ; 1 Cor 2:5; 15:14, 17 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=1+Cor+2:5;+15:14,+17); 2 Cor 10:15 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=2Co&chapter=10&verse=15); Phil 2:17 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Phi&chapter=2&verse=17); Col 1:4; 2:5 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Col+1:4;+2:5); 1 Thess 1:8; 3:2, 5, 10 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=1+Thess+1:8;+3:2,+5,+10); 2 Thess 1:3 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=2Th&chapter=1&verse=3); Titus 1:1 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Tit&chapter=1&verse=1); Phlm 6; 1 Pet 1:9, 21 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=1+Pet+1:9,+21); 2 Pet 1:5 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=2Pe&chapter=1&verse=5)). On the other hand, the objective genitive view has its adherents: A. Hultgren, “The Pistis Christou Formulations in Paul,” NovT 22 (1980): 248-63; J. D. G. Dunn, “Once More, ΠΙΣΤΙΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΥ,” SBL Seminar Papers, 1991, 730-44. Most commentaries on Romans and Galatians usually side with the objective view.
sn On the phrase translated the faithfulness of Christ, ExSyn 116, which notes that the grammar is not decisive, nevertheless suggests that “the faith/faithfulness of Christ is not a denial of faith in Christ as a Pauline concept (for the idea is expressed in many of the same contexts, only with the verb πιστεύω rather than the noun), but implies that the object of faith is a worthy object, for he himself is faithful.” Though Paul elsewhere teaches justification by faith, this presupposes that the object of our faith is reliable and worthy of such faith.

According to the Greek this is true.:yes:
"Faith in Jesus Christ" is grammatically parallel to "the works of the law", and should be translated "the faith of Jesus Christ". The faith of Christ is the gospel. As the source of works is the law, so the source of faith is Christ. It is faith of Christ-His belief, His trust, His obedience-that justifies us, not our faith as such. Christ's faith is seen in His entire life on earth, not just His more spectacular works. ;)

RogerW
Nov 15th 2008, 02:12 AM
Hey Roger,
Is this a trick question.<JK>:D
Hmm, let's see, because we have faith we have access to grace (Rom. 5:2)
I mean God doesn't need faith, we do. Since he supplies our needs in this world, we have faith. It's just a matter of us responding to His grace with our faith.

Hi Eve,

He supplies our needs, we need faith, therefore who supplies our faith? There is no doubt we have a work of faith after salvation, but saving faith for salvation comes from Him, not from ourselves. Even you say no less in your reply to explicar, "so the source of faith is Christ. It is faith of Christ-His belief, His trust, His obedience-that justifies us, not our faith as such."

I think you and I are having trouble coming to agreement because you view salvation as a process. I too find Scripture speaking as we are being saved, and we will be saved, but I believe we are being saved because we have already been saved, and that we will be saved because we have been saved. When we are born again we are guaranteed (sealed with the Spirit) eternal life in Christ. Even our work of faith after salvation is done through the power of God working in us. Without Him we could do nothing.

Joh 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2Th 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
2Th 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.



I'm trying to keep this simple since I've been told that sometimes my posts are hard to understand (so technical at times it goes right over the head of the person I'm responding to, for instance if I explain it in Greek :saint:). For things such as grace and faith I think what is most important to understand is that these things are uncreated energies that respond to each other/work together, to bring about our salvation. A synergy.

Get my drift?:)
Peace be with you
Eve

I think sometimes your mystical leanings come forth...grace and faith as uncreated energies :hmm: I don't think I want to delve too deeply into this train of thought. :rolleyes:

I believe grace and faith work together in salvation. And even after salvation God's grace supplies us with the faith to do the work we were ordained to. All of salvation from beginning to end is of the Lord alone. What He begins He finishes...He has saved us by grace through His faith, therefore we can rest assured He is continuing this work of grace and saving faith in us, and He will finally save, redeem us bodily when we our bodies are resurrected from the grave in the fullness of time.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Through Him, not through Him by our faith, we have access unto the Father through the Spirit.

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

We are with the saints in the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles, and Jesus Christ, we grow together unto an holy temple in the Lord, not by our faith, but of God through the Spirit.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 15th 2008, 02:38 AM
I don't deny what Romans 4:3-5 states, which is that Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness as well as the faith of everyone who "believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly". Therefore, with that clear scripture as a guide, we can easily conclude that the faith that Romans 4:16 is speaking about is our faith. We are saved by God's grace through our faith.

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace"

That's one way of getting rid of the contradiction your doctrine forces on Scripture. Since Ro 4:16 clearly says that faith is by grace, just change the verse to say we should conclude that the faith by grace is our faith. Trouble with this is that now you have (spiritually dead sinners) having faith by their own grace! How can you conclude we are saved by God's grace through our faith, since faith is by grace? If faith is by grace, and clearly it is, then both faith and grace originate not from God, but from spiritually dead sinners.

Why do you refuse to accept the plain reading of Ro 4:16, as well as 1Ti 1:12-14? You have not harmonized the passage, you have simply created even more disharmony.

Many Blessings,
RW

threebigrocks
Nov 15th 2008, 03:23 AM
But we must take the side of truth we have been convicted of. We can stand for the truth as we have so learned, or we can remain silent, and just agree to disagree, and all get along crying peace, peace when there is no peace. We are called to give a reason for the hope that is in us.

Many Blessings,
RW

Oh I agree, 100%. Agree to disagree is a worldly respect.

But as Christ prayed - let them be one Father as you and I are one. There wasn't any difference between the Father and Son. They were as one as two beings of any sort could possibly be. That is what Christ wants for us.

So how do we marry (without naming the "hot button" topics here) the differences so that we can work toward that oneness in the body, the church? If both sides of any arguement are convinced of their side as strongly as they sometimes are - now what? What does the world see in us (generically speaking) when we come from 100 different directions and don't agree? You hit on pride. That's a factor. Once we can temper that - then what?

And I just realized I've derailed this thread. Good job of it too. :rolleyes:

Teke
Nov 15th 2008, 03:32 PM
Hi Eve,

He supplies our needs, we need faith, therefore who supplies our faith? There is no doubt we have a work of faith after salvation, but saving faith for salvation comes from Him, not from ourselves. Even you say no less in your reply to explicar, "so the source of faith is Christ. It is faith of Christ-His belief, His trust, His obedience-that justifies us, not our faith as such."

Hey Roger,

I believe we are close to meaning the same thing. It's probably just a couple things that everyone in this thread may view in a different manner that causes us to see it the way we do. The two things, eschatology, and our state of being after the fall (in this thread mainly spiritually dead or not).

To further what I was pointing out to Explicar, let me add, and I may have already stated this, we are created with faith. We are not spiritually dead because we have faith. Jesus specifcally looked for peoples faith here on earth, and He wouldn't have been looking for it if it wasn't already there. He wanted to know where it was and what it was in. Jesus examples in Matt. 13 of the kingdom of heaven as treasure and what man does is an example of what I am relating.

In the parables the kingdom of heaven is Jesus, and all that we have is our faith. When we find that treasure or pearl of great price, we sell all we have in that we do not put our faith in anything else except that treasure.
Or compare it to the seed (our faith) that when put in good soil (Lord God) produces greatly. In these type of instances faith is our spiritual state, which is not dead. It might be misdirected, like the all that we have example, or it may be dormant like the seed, but it is there ready to be active for the right reasons when that reason is presented. In this case the reason is Christ. So we put our faith in Christ because He is worthy of our faith in that He has proven Himself to be faithful. It's like a song we sing in my church, "put not your trust (faith) in princes or sons of men, in whom is no salvation", from Psalm 146.


I think you and I are having trouble coming to agreement because you view salvation as a process. I too find Scripture speaking as we are being saved, and we will be saved, but I believe we are being saved because we have already been saved, and that we will be saved because we have been saved. When we are born again we are guaranteed (sealed with the Spirit) eternal life in Christ. Even our work of faith after salvation is done through the power of God working in us. Without Him we could do nothing.

I agree without Him we could do nothing, as we'd be nothing as well. I also agree with the words "we are being saved because we have already been saved", scripture clearly proofs this thought, showing God to eternally faithful. Which is what we are to understand and accept.
So generally speaking, all mankind is saved by God. I do not mean this in the sense of the western concept of universal salvation. But that everyone is saved in the manner that God decides to save them. Not everyone is going to be called to the priesthood. I see God calling those for the priesthood to be ministers to others. In Greek the word "perienchoresis" (from 'perichoresis') which is also associated with Trinitarian theology, is a sharing or exchange (an image of dancing around comes to mind). In the NT we see it in the word "koinonia" as well. There are many Greek words mistranslated in our English bibles, such as "hilasterion" which is translated into quite a few different words, as it is a difficult word to translate.

I wouldn't put it in these words, "we are guaranteed eternal life in Christ". We receive "everlasting" life, there is a difference. As only God is eternal, and we are not. Our everlasting life depends on His eternal life. I think that distinction should be made.



I think sometimes your mystical leanings come forth...grace and faith as uncreated energies :hmm: I don't think I want to delve too deeply into this train of thought. :rolleyes:

If Greek causes your eyes to roll, then no you don't. :lol:
My reason for relating it this way is that in the NT Greek all through Paul's writings is the Greek word "energia"-energy for the English word "work". When Jerome translated the Greek because there was no Latin equivalent he used the word "opus", work. A sculptor creates a statue and that's his "opus". He is not "energizing" within it. You see there is a difference related in the Greek. God is energizing within it. Grace and faith are "energia". Grace relating of God's work, and faith relating of ours. We need this "energia" to worship God. So it's pretty important.


I believe grace and faith work together in salvation. And even after salvation God's grace supplies us with the faith to do the work we were ordained to. All of salvation from beginning to end is of the Lord alone. What He begins He finishes...He has saved us by grace through His faith, therefore we can rest assured He is continuing this work of grace and saving faith in us, and He will finally save, redeem us bodily when we our bodies are resurrected from the grave in the fullness of time.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Through Him, not through Him by our faith, we have access unto the Father through the Spirit.

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

We are with the saints in the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles, and Jesus Christ, we grow together unto an holy temple in the Lord, not by our faith, but of God through the Spirit.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Many Blessings,
RW

As I've shown above, I for the most part agree with you. My wording may differ as I relate to the Greek and Trinitarian theology, but I wouldn't nitpick your words as they are your words. And I'm not here to infringe on your liberty in Christ. He will refine you. :)

RogerW
Nov 15th 2008, 05:29 PM
Hey Roger,

I believe we are close to meaning the same thing. It's probably just a couple things that everyone in this thread may view in a different manner that causes us to see it the way we do. The two things, eschatology, and our state of being after the fall (in this thread mainly spiritually dead or not).

To further what I was pointing out to Explicar, let me add, and I may have already stated this, we are created with faith. We are not spiritually dead because we have faith. Jesus specifcally looked for peoples faith here on earth, and He wouldn't have been looking for it if it wasn't already there. He wanted to know where it was and what it was in. Jesus examples in Matt. 13 of the kingdom of heaven as treasure and what man does is an example of what I am relating.

Hi Eve,

I agree everyone is created with faith. However only the elect, as I have already stated are given the gift of God's grace that is saving faith. The faith we are born with is natural, and earthly, coming not from the Spirit of God, but from natural or physical creation. All men born in Adam are born with a knowledge of God through the things created, as well as our own conscience, even history reveals the glory of God. This is enough to render every man without excuse for not believing the Son, whom was sent from the Father. There is an earthly and there is a spiritual, and not all are spiritual, but only those to whom God has ordained unto eternal life.

I do not believe the parable of the of the hidden treasure represents us looking for and finding Christ. I believe it represents Christ looking for and finding His sheep, then selling (giving His very life) all that He has to own them. In the parable the field is the world, and the elect are the treasure hidden in the world, and the man (Christ) that finds the treasure buys that field (all things will be made new again). Christ came to seek and to save that which is lost, we do not go seeking for Him (Lu 19:10).

If Christ came looking for peoples faith, the only faith He would find is of the flesh, and not of the Spirit.



Or compare it to the seed (our faith) that when put in good soil (Lord God) produces greatly.

The seed is not our faith, it is the Word of God.

Lu 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

The good soil is not the Lord God, it is our good heart that hears the Word and keeps it.

Lu 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.



In these type of instances faith is our spiritual state, which is not dead.

Eve, unless we have been born again of the Spirit, we have physical, earthy life, but we do not have spiritual life.



It might be misdirected, like the all that we have example, or it may be dormant like the seed, but it is there ready to be active for the right reasons when that reason is presented.

Eve, the seed, which is the Word of God is never dormant. It always achieves the purpose for which it has been sent. Whether that is to give life in Christ, or to convict and condemn.



In this case the reason is Christ. So we put our faith in Christ because He is worthy of our faith in that He has proven Himself to be faithful. It's like a song we sing in my church, "put not your trust (faith) in princes or sons of men, in whom is no salvation", from Psalm 146.

Putting our faith, that is natural and of the world, will not bring us life in Christ. The only faith that saves is faith that comes as the gift of God's grace, or His faith, His righteousness. Our own faith will only lead to death.



So generally speaking, all mankind is saved by God. I do not mean this in the sense of the western concept of universal salvation. But that everyone is saved in the manner that God decides to save them. Not everyone is going to be called to the priesthood. I see God calling those for the priesthood to be ministers to others. In Greek the word "perienchoresis" (from 'perichoresis') which is also associated with Trinitarian theology, is a sharing or exchange (an image of dancing around comes to mind). In the NT we see it in the word "koinonia" as well. There are many Greek words mistranslated in our English bibles, such as "hilasterion" which is translated into quite a few different words, as it is a difficult word to translate.

Eve, this is a confused and conflicting statement. We are either born again, have been saved, and therefore receive everlasting life in Christ. Or we are lost, never having been saved, never receiving everlasting life, unless/until God draws us to Christ for salvation. There are only two manner of people in the world. Believers and unbelievers, saved, or lost.


I wouldn't put it in these words, "we are guaranteed eternal life in Christ". We receive "everlasting" life, there is a difference. As only God is eternal, and we are not. Our everlasting life depends on His eternal life. I think that distinction should be made.

Our physical bodies die, and are therefore not eternal, but when we receive the Holy Spirit through re-birth, our life in the Spirit will never die.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.



Grace and faith are "energia". Grace relating of God's work, and faith relating of ours.

Both grace and faith are God's work. Even the faith we are given, the gift of God's grace exists because He is working in and through us. We are His instruments to do His will. We do it, not by compulsion, but because He has given us a new heart, and changed our nature, so now we desire to serve Him in Spirit and truth.

Many Blessings,
RW

drew
Nov 15th 2008, 05:52 PM
Faith from us is a work that we do and as such cannot save us nor help in our salvation in any way. Remember Eph 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
This text is widely misunderstood. The context shows that the "works" being described here are the works of the Law of Moses - the Torah - and not the general category of "good works". People continue to believe that Paul is talking about the catergory of "good works" in general when the context shows that this is simply not the case.

Why do we keep having to repeat the same arguments that show that Torah is in view here?

Well, I suppose this issue must be addressed yet again:

The material that follows 2:8-10 makes no sense if "good works" are in view in 2:8-10. More specifically, if the justification value of "good works" is being denied, why does Paul use a "therefore" transitional in verse 11 to conclude that the Gentile now has access to the covenant promises (including, of course, final justification) specifically because a dividing line between Jew and Gentile has been dissolved? After all, the dividing line is, of course, not the “good works” line, it is the “works of Torah” line.

There is indeed a sense in which the standard reformed reading of this could be salvaged (although this ultimately does not work as we will shortly see). If Paul says “no one is justified by good works, therefore remember that the Jew-Gentile barrier has been destroyed”, he could mean that there is some difference between the Jew and the Gentile in respect to doing good works, but this difference is irrelevant since good works do not justify.

In other words, he could be saying: "Listen you Gentiles, you need not do the good works that the Jews are doing to be saved since good works do not save anyway, therefore...you are not foreigners to the covenants of the promise, etc., etc.)”

But, of course, Paul does not believe this - he believes that Jew and Gentile alike are in sin. So it makes no sense for Paul, if he has really asserted that "good works" do not save, to then say "therefore you Gentiles now have hope since the barrier between Jew and Gentile has been destroyed, etc. etc." Why does this not make sense? Obviously, because Jew and Gentile are on equal footing in respect to "good works" - neither does enough good works to save.

Paul is therefore obviously talking about the works of Torah in 2:8-10. Then the "therefore" stuff makes sense since Torah is indeed the thing that divides Jew from Gentile and is the basis for the Gentile believing that he is on the outside in respect to the covenant promises.

RogerW
Nov 15th 2008, 06:15 PM
[/size]
This text is widely misunderstood. The context shows that the "works" being described here are the works of the Law of Moses - the Torah - and not the general category of "good works". People continue to believe that Paul is talking about the catergory of "good works" in general when the context shows that this is simply not the case.

Why do we keep having to repeat the same arguments that show that Torah is in view here?

Well, I suppose this issue must be addressed yet again:

The material that follows 2:8-10 makes no sense if "good works" are in view in 2:8-10. More specifically, if the justification value of "good works" is being denied, why does Paul use a "therefore" transitional in verse 11 to conclude that the Gentile now has access to the covenant promises (including, of course, final justification) specifically because a dividing line between Jew and Gentile has been dissolved? After all, the dividing line is, of course, not the “good works” line, it is the “works of Torah” line.

There is indeed a sense in which the standard reformed reading of this could be salvaged (although this ultimately does not work as we will shortly see). If Paul says “no one is justified by good works, therefore remember that the Jew-Gentile barrier has been destroyed”, he could mean that there is some difference between the Jew and the Gentile in respect to doing good works, but this difference is irrelevant since good works do not justify.

In other words, he could be saying: "Listen you Gentiles, you need not do the good works that the Jews are doing to be saved since good works do not save anyway, therefore...you are not foreigners to the covenants of the promise, etc., etc.)”

But, of course, Paul does not believe this - he believes that Jew and Gentile alike are in sin. So it makes no sense for Paul, if he has really asserted that "good works" do not save, to then say "therefore you Gentiles now have hope since the barrier between Jew and Gentile has been destroyed, etc. etc." Why does this not make sense? Obviously, because Jew and Gentile are on equal footing in respect to "good works" - neither does enough good works to save.

Paul is therefore obviously talking about the works of Torah in 2:8-10. Then the "therefore" stuff makes sense since Torah is indeed the thing that divides Jew from Gentile and is the basis for the Gentile believing that he is on the outside in respect to the covenant promises.

Greetings Drew,

There is an on-going discussion of this topic; ie the New Perspective on Paul in this thread. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=143873

Perhaps we could keep this thread from being de-railed if you continued this discussion there.

Many Blessings,
RW

Friend of I AM
Nov 15th 2008, 07:13 PM
Good posts Stephan.:)
That overall message is important. Both grace and faith are uncreated energies with which we participate with God in His creation.

Somebody mentioned the chicken egg thing, and since I've been in the "mutation" thread in A&E it had me thinking :hmm:. The chicken came first for sure. Man was created first and by that creation did faith come to that which is created. Everything God created had life and procreated. So we could say that God's grace being part of the creation of man produced faith (whether that fruit was fruitful or not) from man. A faith which of course is to be directed to God alone.

Following that line of thought, grace comes first, as grace is of God, but faith is of us. The message being that these are the things which work together for our salvation. :)



It's how he used that faith Roger.

Peace be with you
Eve

Hey Teke,

You make some interesting points. Jesus himself does profess to the Centurian that he had not seen any faith as great as his in all of Israel. Add to this Abraham, who scriptures state to be the Father of all those with his faith(Jews and Gentiles alike) I think that ultimately, faith(saving faith) in someway is a manifestation of something that God has given to us..and thus one could say that it does originate from him...seeing as to how he gives each man a measure of faith. How we choose to use it is another story altogether.

In Christian Love,

Stephen

Teke
Nov 15th 2008, 08:09 PM
Hi Eve,

I agree everyone is created with faith. However only the elect, as I have already stated are given the gift of God's grace that is saving faith. The faith we are born with is natural, and earthly, coming not from the Spirit of God, but from natural or physical creation. All men born in Adam are born with a knowledge of God through the things created, as well as our own conscience, even history reveals the glory of God. This is enough to render every man without excuse for not believing the Son, whom was sent from the Father. There is an earthly and there is a spiritual, and not all are spiritual, but only those to whom God has ordained unto eternal life.

I do not believe the parable of the of the hidden treasure represents us looking for and finding Christ. I believe it represents Christ looking for and finding His sheep, then selling (giving His very life) all that He has to own them. In the parable the field is the world, and the elect are the treasure hidden in the world, and the man (Christ) that finds the treasure buys that field (all things will be made new again). Christ came to seek and to save that which is lost, we do not go seeking for Him (Lu 19:10).

If Christ came looking for peoples faith, the only faith He would find is of the flesh, and not of the Spirit.



The seed is not our faith, it is the Word of God.

Lu 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

The good soil is not the Lord God, it is our good heart that hears the Word and keeps it.

Lu 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.



Eve, unless we have been born again of the Spirit, we have physical, earthy life, but we do not have spiritual life.



Eve, the seed, which is the Word of God is never dormant. It always achieves the purpose for which it has been sent. Whether that is to give life in Christ, or to convict and condemn.



Putting our faith, that is natural and of the world, will not bring us life in Christ. The only faith that saves is faith that comes as the gift of God's grace, or His faith, His righteousness. Our own faith will only lead to death.



Eve, this is a confused and conflicting statement. We are either born again, have been saved, and therefore receive everlasting life in Christ. Or we are lost, never having been saved, never receiving everlasting life, unless/until God draws us to Christ for salvation. There are only two manner of people in the world. Believers and unbelievers, saved, or lost.

Our physical bodies die, and are therefore not eternal, but when we receive the Holy Spirit through re-birth, our life in the Spirit will never die.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Both grace and faith are God's work. Even the faith we are given, the gift of God's grace exists because He is working in and through us. We are His instruments to do His will. We do it, not by compulsion, but because He has given us a new heart, and changed our nature, so now we desire to serve Him in Spirit and truth.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger, is this a "limited grace" view your presenting?

RogerW
Nov 15th 2008, 09:35 PM
Roger, is this a "limited grace" view your presenting?

Hi Eve,

Hmmm "limited grace", are you referring to "limited atonement"? If this is what you mean, I believe the Bible is very clear that not every man will be saved, therefore limited atonement is clearly taught in Scripture. Unless of course you hold to the unbiblical view of universalism.

Many Blessings,
RW

drew
Nov 15th 2008, 10:13 PM
I believe the Bible is very clear that not every man will be saved, therefore limited atonement is clearly taught in Scripture.
My understanding of the doctrine of limited atonement is this (from wikipedia):

The doctrine states that Jesus Christ's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus)substitutionary atonement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement) on the cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross) is limited in scope to those who are predestined (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination) unto salvation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation)

It is clear that one does not need to believe in this definition of limited atonement to deny universalism.

Yukerboy
Nov 15th 2008, 10:24 PM
The doctrine states that Jesus Christ's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus)substitutionary atonement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement) on the cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross) is limited in scope to those who are predestined (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination) unto salvation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation)

Let's say we agree that this is the definition of limited atonement.

Then to say limited atonement is wrong, that would mean Christ's substitutionary atonement is not limited to those who are predestined unto salvation.

That would then mean that Christ's substitutionary atonement is also for those who are not predestined unto salvation. That statement then means that it is for not just those predestined to salvation, but those predestined to damnation?

That, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is the definition of universalism.

Yuke

RogerW
Nov 15th 2008, 10:31 PM
My understanding of the doctrine of limited atonement is this (from wikipedia):

The doctrine states that Jesus Christ's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus)substitutionary atonement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement) on the cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross) is limited in scope to those who are predestined (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination) unto salvation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation)

It is clear that one does not need to believe in this definition of limited atonement to deny universalism.

Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for the salvation, including faith of His elect which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Mt 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mt 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Mt 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Mt 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Additional Scriptural Support:
Exodus 4:21, 14:4, 8, 17; Deuteronomy 2:30, 9:4-7, 29:4; Joshua 11:19; 1 Samuel 2:25, 3:14; 2 Samuel 17:14; Psalm 105:25; Proverbs 15:8, 26, 28:9; Isaiah 53:11; Jeremiah 24:7; Mt 13:10-15, 44-46, 22:14, 24:22; Luke 8:15, 13:23, 19:42; John 5:21, 6:37, 44, 65, 8:42-47, 10:11, 14, 26-28, 11:49-53, 12:37-41, 13:1, 18, 15:16, 17:2, 6, 9, 18:9, 37; Acts 2:39, 13:48, 18:27, 19:9; Romans 9:10-26, 11:5-10; 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 2:14; 2 Corinthians 2:14-16, 4:3; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 2:1-10; Colossians 2:13; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-14; 2 Timothy 2:20, 25; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 1:3, 14, 2:9, 16 (cp. Galatians 3:29, 4:28-31), 9:28; 1 Peter 2:8; 2 Peter 2:7; 1 John 4:6; Jude 1, 14; Revelation 13:8, 17:8, 15-18, 21:27.

Very clearly limited atonement or particular redemption is taught
throughout Scripture. Assuring that salvation is given to the elect of God
by grace through the gift of faith.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 16th 2008, 04:57 AM
Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for the salvation, including faith of His elect which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Mt 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mt 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Mt 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Mt 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Additional Scriptural Support:
Exodus 4:21, 14:4, 8, 17; Deuteronomy 2:30, 9:4-7, 29:4; Joshua 11:19; 1 Samuel 2:25, 3:14; 2 Samuel 17:14; Psalm 105:25; Proverbs 15:8, 26, 28:9; Isaiah 53:11; Jeremiah 24:7; Mt 13:10-15, 44-46, 22:14, 24:22; Luke 8:15, 13:23, 19:42; John 5:21, 6:37, 44, 65, 8:42-47, 10:11, 14, 26-28, 11:49-53, 12:37-41, 13:1, 18, 15:16, 17:2, 6, 9, 18:9, 37; Acts 2:39, 13:48, 18:27, 19:9; Romans 9:10-26, 11:5-10; 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 2:14; 2 Corinthians 2:14-16, 4:3; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 2:1-10; Colossians 2:13; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-14; 2 Timothy 2:20, 25; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 1:3, 14, 2:9, 16 (cp. Galatians 3:29, 4:28-31), 9:28; 1 Peter 2:8; 2 Peter 2:7; 1 John 4:6; Jude 1, 14; Revelation 13:8, 17:8, 15-18, 21:27.

Very clearly limited atonement or particular redemption is taught
throughout Scripture. Assuring that salvation is given to the elect of God
by grace through the gift of faith.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

I don't feel like putting all of those verses in context tonight, however, there is no limited atonement.

Romans 5:18 ( KJV ) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Limited atonement says that Christ only died for the elect correct??

The elect cannot be lost correct??

All of the elect will be saved correct???

I pose this,


Matthew 19:16-26 ( KJV ) 16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.



23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

The rich young ruler came to Jesus and asked what he needed to do to obtain eternal life. Was he one of the elect? Jesus told him he could be saved. He must have been one of the elect, however according to the disciples response he wasn't saved. The elect can be lost? Didn't the limited atonement secure his salvation?

The rich you ruler came to Jesus and asked what he needed to do to obtain eternal life. Was he one of the elect? From the response of the disciples it appears he was not saved, therefore he was not one of the elect. If he was not one of the elect, why did Jesus tell him he could be saved.

This Roger, is one of the main reasons that I left Calvinism. Your doctrine cannot explain this, either He was elect and not saved, or he was not elect but Jesus told him he could be saved, when in reality there was no chance for him to be saved.

Butch5
Nov 16th 2008, 05:00 AM
Let's say we agree that this is the definition of limited atonement.

Then to say limited atonement is wrong, that would mean Christ's substitutionary atonement is not limited to those who are predestined unto salvation.

That would then mean that Christ's substitutionary atonement is also for those who are not predestined unto salvation. That statement then means that it is for not just those predestined to salvation, but those predestined to damnation?

That, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is the definition of universalism.

Yuke

Universalism says all will be saved. The atonement, can be for all without having universalism.

Yukerboy
Nov 16th 2008, 05:04 PM
2 Corinthians 5:19 gives us a definition of atonement as not imputing their trespasses unto them. If the atonement was for all then all would not have their trespasses imputed onto them. If their trespasses were not imputed unto them, then they have been washed of sin, meaning all are saved.

Either atonement (sins paid for by Christ) is limited or all sins are forgiven and all people are saved.

There is no gray area here. It's limited atonement or universalism. God writes in black and white.

Butch5
Nov 16th 2008, 08:31 PM
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I did read what comes before it. It says "him that justifieth the ungodly". Who is that? Jesus. Then it says "his faith is counted for righteousness". Who's faith? The one that justifieth the ungodly. Jesus. This then harmonizes with what I told you about the translations in Hebrew and Greek. I know you want "his faith" to point to Abraham but that just doesn't square with what I already told you. However since "his faith" is point toward "him that justifieth the ungodly" then all harmonizes perfectly.


Come on now, I only changed it so you could see a little easier what I see it mean. The text stands as it is written just fine. Like I said above, "his" does not point back to Abraham but to "him that justifieth". It's grammatically correct and harmonizes perfectly. The way you want to interpret it ignores the absolute huge problem that we are not justified by works. And faith is a work. It absolutely MUST harmonize with everything the bible has to say and our faith helping to save us just doesn't. But Christ's faith saving us does perfectly with everything the bible has to say.

Mikey,

One problem is that it is not Jesus that justifies the ungodly, it is God. And "his faith" refers to the subject of the sentence, the one being spoken of, which in this case is Abraham.

Butch5
Nov 16th 2008, 08:36 PM
2 Corinthians 5:19 gives us a definition of atonement as not imputing their trespasses unto them. If the atonement was for all then all would not have their trespasses imputed onto them. If their trespasses were not imputed unto them, then they have been washed of sin, meaning all are saved.

Either atonement (sins paid for by Christ) is limited or all sins are forgiven and all people are saved.

There is no gray area here. It's limited atonement or universalism. God writes in black and white.

There is no single verse of Scripture that give a total definition the atonement, just as there is no single verse that gives a definition of salvation. However, just because the atonement is available to all does not mean all will be saved. The atonement is only made effective through belief, therefore the atonement can be offered to all and yet not all accept.

Teke
Nov 16th 2008, 08:59 PM
Hi Eve,

Hmmm "limited grace", are you referring to "limited atonement"? If this is what you mean, I believe the Bible is very clear that not every man will be saved, therefore limited atonement is clearly taught in Scripture. Unless of course you hold to the unbiblical view of universalism.

Many Blessings,
RW

Remember the Greek word I posted on, "perichoresis", same subject as "atonement"/reconciliation. It describes how this was accomplished by the Incarnation.
I do believe grace is universal.


So generally speaking, all mankind is saved by God. I do not mean this in the sense of the western concept of universal salvation. But that everyone is saved in the manner that God decides to save them. Not everyone is going to be called to the priesthood. I see God calling those for the priesthood to be ministers to others. In Greek the word "perienchoresis" (from 'perichoresis') which is also associated with Trinitarian theology, is a sharing or exchange (an image of dancing around comes to mind). In the NT we see it in the word "koinonia" as well. There are many Greek words mistranslated in our English bibles, such as "hilasterion" which is translated into quite a few different words, as it is a difficult word to translate.


Let's say we agree that this is the definition of limited atonement.

Then to say limited atonement is wrong, that would mean Christ's substitutionary atonement is not limited to those who are predestined unto salvation.

That would then mean that Christ's substitutionary atonement is also for those who are not predestined unto salvation. That statement then means that it is for not just those predestined to salvation, but those predestined to damnation?

That, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is the definition of universalism.

Without the foundation of "substitutionary atonement" would such a doctrine as "limited grace" or "limited atonement" still stand? Trinity theology would not agree with such a definition as this western concept, "substitutionary", as in relation to the Trinity that would challenge the dogma that Christ was fully human. Not to mention that it also would paint the OT sacrifices in the wrong manner, they were not substitutes for sin, repentance with faith in God was still necessary for their forgiveness. OT liturgical practice doesn't justify "substitutionary" doctrines.

The Greek word I've pointed out in relation to Trinity theology is what explains the meaning of the Incarnation, Transfiguration, crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ. IOW the gospel that the holy Apostles taught was that Christ assumed our humanity thereby making us right with God. As only God in humanity could offer the perfect sacrifice on behalf of humanity, that being Himself, Who as The Priest did so/performed this.

His participation with mankind is not substitutionary. Nor is His grace limited to accomplish His will.

RogerW
Nov 16th 2008, 09:11 PM
Roger,

I don't feel like putting all of those verses in context tonight, however, there is no limited atonement.

Romans 5:18 ( KJV ) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Just as humanity was subjected to condemnation by the offense of one man (Adam), so too the righteousness of one man (Christ) subjects humanity unto justification of life.

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The words "were made" and "be made" in this verse are important. Adam's sin did not put us on trial and make us only susceptible to sin nor lead us into sin, but by his fall we were actually made sinners. Even so Christ's obedience did not render us saveable nor enable us to be righteous before God by our own works, but we were made righteous and sanctified entirely on the basis of what Christ did.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.




Limited atonement says that Christ only died for the elect correct??

What does the Bible say?

He shall save who? Not all people, but His people.

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

He will justify and bear the iniquities of who? Not all people, but many.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Who will come to Him? Not all people, but those whom the Father gives Him.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Who will He redeem and purify? Not all people, but a peculiar people.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Who is sanctified by the Spirit and sprinkled with the blood of Christ? Not all people, but elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

So according to the Word of God, not the doctrine of limited atonement, not all people will be saved.



The elect cannot be lost correct??

Again, what does the Bible say?

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Life in Him could not be eternal if it could be lost.



All of the elect will be saved correct???

It wouldn't make much sense for Him to elect them, and write their names in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world if He does not save them.



I pose this,

Matthew 19:16-26 ( KJV ) 16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.



23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


The rich young ruler came to Jesus and asked what he needed to do to obtain eternal life. Was he one of the elect? Jesus told him he could be saved. He must have been one of the elect, however according to the disciples response he wasn't saved. The elect can be lost? Didn't the limited atonement secure his salvation?

The rich you ruler came to Jesus and asked what he needed to do to obtain eternal life. Was he one of the elect? From the response of the disciples it appears he was not saved, therefore he was not one of the elect. If he was not one of the elect, why did Jesus tell him he could be saved.

The man's questions expose his heart. Because he kept the law, he thought he had earned eternal life. But Christ knows his heart, and therefore directs the man to examine his heart. The man went away sorrowful because he loved his riches more than he loved the Lord. It is a humble and contrite heart, clothed in the righteousness of Christ that will be rewarded eternal life. But this man was no better than the self-righteous Pharisees, thinking that he could be good enough, put his own faith in Christ for salvation. So he went away sad, because he wasn't willing to humble himself unto the Lord, or beg Christ for mercy and salvation. Salvation is of the Lord Alone!

...what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
...All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?



This Roger, is one of the main reasons that I left Calvinism. Your doctrine cannot explain this, either He was elect and not saved, or he was not elect but Jesus told him he could be saved, when in reality there was no chance for him to be saved.

I am a Christian, who follows the doctrine of Christ as taught in His Word. No man can be saved by their own works. That is why I began this thread. Men in unbelief do not possess saving faith, and when we think that our salvation comes from our faith, then we are, like this man thinking that we can do a good work to obtain eternal life. Because faith is a work, but it is not a work we can do for salvation, but the work of God alone.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 16th 2008, 09:57 PM
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Just as humanity was subjected to condemnation by the offense of one man (Adam), so too the righteousness of one man (Christ) subjects humanity unto justification of life.

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The words "were made" and "be made" in this verse are important. Adam's sin did not put us on trial and make us only susceptible to sin nor lead us into sin, but by his fall we were actually made sinners. Even so Christ's obedience did not render us saveable nor enable us to be righteous before God by our own works, but we were made righteous and sanctified entirely on the basis of what Christ did.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.




What does the Bible say?

He shall save who? Not all people, but His people.

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

He will justify and bear the iniquities of who? Not all people, but many.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Who will come to Him? Not all people, but those whom the Father gives Him.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Who will He redeem and purify? Not all people, but a peculiar people.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Who is sanctified by the Spirit and sprinkled with the blood of Christ? Not all people, but elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

So according to the Word of God, not the doctrine of limited atonement, not all people will be saved.



Again, what does the Bible say?

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Life in Him could not be eternal if it could be lost.



It wouldn't make much sense for Him to elect them, and write their names in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world if He does not save them.



The man's questions expose his heart. Because he kept the law, he thought he had earned eternal life. But Christ knows his heart, and therefore directs the man to examine his heart. The man went away sorrowful because he loved his riches more than he loved the Lord. It is a humble and contrite heart, clothed in the righteousness of Christ that will be rewarded eternal life. But this man was no better than the self-righteous Pharisees, thinking that he could be good enough, put his own faith in Christ for salvation. So he went away sad, because he wasn't willing to humble himself unto the Lord, or beg Christ for mercy and salvation. Salvation is of the Lord Alone!

...what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
...All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?



I am a Christian, who follows the doctrine of Christ as taught in His Word. No man can be saved by their own works. That is why I began this thread. Men in unbelief do not possess saving faith, and when we think that our salvation comes from our faith, then we are, like this man thinking that we can do a good work to obtain eternal life. Because faith is a work, but it is not a work we can do for salvation, but the work of God alone.

Many Blessings,
RW


Roger---I am a Christian, who follows the doctrine of Christ as taught in His Word.


Sorry, I don't think this is so. I am not being mean or disrespectful. Consider this, you posted verses above to answer my questions, however there are many verse that say the opposite. You do not deal with these. One set or the other is out of contex, because two opposing statements cannot be true. To follow Christ's doctrine as taught in His word, you must deal with all of the verses.

You did not answer the statement in my post. You gave an explanation of it, but you did not answer it. Either the rich man was elect and not saved or he was not elect and Jesus said he could be saved, which in reality would not be the case.

You also didn't answer the other post where I showed that Jesus was saying to His disciples, John, matthew, Peter, etc. if your hand causes you to sin cut it off, it is better for you to enter into life maimed that for your whole body to go into hell.

These words were spoken to the apostles, Christ's elect, if they could not be lost, why did Jesus say this to them?

One of the problems Christians have is that their doctrine is more important to them than the Scriptures. Anytime you have a Scripture that stands in opposition to your doctrine, your doctrine should come into question. Sadly, it is usually the other way around, Christians can't fit Scripture into their doctrine so they just ignore or change the Scripture.

As for limited atonement, the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement says that Christ's death was only for those who God had arbitrarily chosen to save before the foundation of the world. I agree that not all will be saved, and that the atonement is limited effectually to those who are saved. However it is available to all, because it is not God who chooses who will be saved but each person as the holy Spirit draws.

Teke
Nov 16th 2008, 10:34 PM
Everyone is working out their salvation in their present life. God's grace provides the salvation in life they work out.
Eschatology comes into play on this subject, because all are resurrected for the final judgment. Whether they be judged by their faith or works.
A limited grace view doesn't allow for all to be resurrected, nor does it allow for all to work out the salvation God has freely given to all of mankind.

RogerW
Nov 17th 2008, 03:56 AM
Sorry, I don't think this is so. I am not being mean or disrespectful. Consider this, you posted verses above to answer my questions, however there are many verse that say the opposite. You do not deal with these. One set or the other is out of contex, because two opposing statements cannot be true. To follow Christ's doctrine as taught in His word, you must deal with all of the verses.

I answered your question, the problem for you is that you cannot reconcile all the apparent contradictions your free will doctrine forces into the Word of God. It is your doctrine that cannot harmonize the whole of Scripture so that it does not contradict. I've given you a number of verses that clearly show that Christ secured salvation (not offered) for only certain people. How do you reconcile these verses with your doctrine that says Christ came to merely offer salvation to every man?



You did not answer the statement in my post. You gave an explanation of it, but you did not answer it. Either the rich man was elect and not saved or he was not elect and Jesus said he could be saved, which in reality would not be the case.

The man could have been elect, but all that we are told is that at this time, he went away sad, showing clearly he loved his money more than he loved the Lord. It is also clear in the passage that the man thought he could purchase salvation through his own works. This clearly shows there was no change of heart, and he was still in unbelief. Could this man have been among the elect of God? Of course he could. How do I know whether or not the Lord opened his ears to hear, and eyes to see? Consider the Jews, who mostly remained in unbelief until after the death and resurrection of Christ. Consider the day of Pentecost when three thousand Jews were saved through one sermon.

Your question presumes to know more than the text supplies. No one has any right to ask if someone is among the elect of God. We preach the gospel of salvation indiscrimately unto all men, and God will add to His kingdom those who shall be saved.



You also didn't answer the other post where I showed that Jesus was saying to His disciples, John, matthew, Peter, etc. if your hand causes you to sin cut it off, it is better for you to enter into life maimed that for your whole body to go into hell.

These words were spoken to the apostles, Christ's elect, if they could not be lost, why did Jesus say this to them?

If we do not abandon the sins we love, but continue to practice sin, it would clearly demonstrate that we are not saved. No one who has been born again will have sin reigning over them. This is evidence they are not born again. This is the same warning to every man who professes to be in Christ. It is better to go to heaven, without enjoying the things that caused us to sin (hands, feet, eyes etc), than to enjoy them here, and then be lost.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.



One of the problems Christians have is that their doctrine is more important to them than the Scriptures. Anytime you have a Scripture that stands in opposition to your doctrine, your doctrine should come into question. Sadly, it is usually the other way around, Christians can't fit Scripture into their doctrine so they just ignore or change the Scripture.

I agree. Since free will doctrine forces so many contradictions upon the Word of God, I am amazed how so many simply ignore or try to change the Scripture to fit their unbiblical beliefs.



As for limited atonement, the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement says that Christ's death was only for those who God had arbitrarily chosen to save before the foundation of the world. I agree that not all will be saved, and that the atonement is limited effectually to those who are saved. However it is available to all, because it is not God who chooses who will be saved but each person as the holy Spirit draws.

You either accept that the Bible teaches limited atonement, or you must embrace universalism...as you have been shown the Bible is black and white. You want to have it both ways. You say atonement is limited to those who are saved, but then you say it is also available to all??? That is a very confused statement. Those darned election and predestination passages must be dealt with. They cause much difficulty for the doctrine of free will.

Your free will doctrine is becoming more confusing. Is salvation by our own free will choosing to place our faith in Christ, or is salvation a work of the Spirit of God as you imply?

It's not enough that free will wants us to believe that spiritually dead sinners have faith to save themselves, but now you want us to believe that Christ did not accomplish salvation on the cross for His people. You say His death merely makes salvation possible if spiritually dead men will only choose. Can you show me a single verse of Scripture that says that Christ offers salvation to any man, if they will simply choose to accept it? Problem is you have no answer for how spiritually dead men, who are in bondage to Satan sin and death can choose to come to Christ for life.

Salvation is of the Lord ALONE! We are saved by grace through faith that is not our own, but the gift of God's grace.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 17th 2008, 04:37 AM
I answered your question, the problem for you is that you cannot reconcile all the apparent contradictions your free will doctrine forces into the Word of God. It is your doctrine that cannot harmonize the whole of Scripture so that it does not contradict. I've given you a number of verses that clearly show that Christ secured salvation (not offered) for only certain people. How do you reconcile these verses with your doctrine that says Christ came to merely offer salvation to every man?



The man could have been elect, but all that we are told is that at this time, he went away sad, showing clearly he loved his money more than he loved the Lord. It is also clear in the passage that the man thought he could purchase salvation through his own works. This clearly shows there was no change of heart, and he was still in unbelief. Could this man have been among the elect of God? Of course he could. How do I know whether or not the Lord opened his ears to hear, and eyes to see? Consider the Jews, who mostly remained in unbelief until after the death and resurrection of Christ. Consider the day of Pentecost when three thousand Jews were saved through one sermon.

Your question presumes to know more than the text supplies. No one has any right to ask if someone is among the elect of God. We preach the gospel of salvation indiscrimately unto all men, and God will add to His kingdom those who shall be saved.



If we do not abandon the sins we love, but continue to practice sin, it would clearly demonstrate that we are not saved. No one who has been born again will have sin reigning over them. This is evidence they are not born again. This is the same warning to every man who professes to be in Christ. It is better to go to heaven, without enjoying the things that caused us to sin (hands, feet, eyes etc), than to enjoy them here, and then be lost.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.



I agree. Since free will doctrine forces so many contradictions upon the Word of God, I am amazed how so many simply ignore or try to change the Scripture to fit their unbiblical beliefs.



You either accept that the Bible teaches limited atonement, or you must embrace universalism...as you have been shown the Bible is black and white. You want to have it both ways. You say atonement is limited to those who are saved, but then you say it is also available to all??? That is a very confused statement. Those darned election and predestination passages must be dealt with. They cause much difficulty for the doctrine of free will.

Your free will doctrine is becoming more confusing. Is salvation by our own free will choosing to place our faith in Christ, or is salvation a work of the Spirit of God as you imply?

It's not enough that free will wants us to believe that spiritually dead sinners have faith to save themselves, but now you want us to believe that Christ did not accomplish salvation on the cross for His people. You say His death merely makes salvation possible if spiritually dead men will only choose. Can you show me a single verse of Scripture that says that Christ offers salvation to any man, if they will simply choose to accept it? Problem is you have no answer for how spiritually dead men, who are in bondage to Satan sin and death can choose to come to Christ for life.

Salvation is of the Lord ALONE! We are saved by grace through faith that is not our own, but the gift of God's grace.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

There is no confusion with my free will doctrine, on the contrary it is your doctrine that cannot be reconciled. Here is what I pose to you, What Scriptures do you say I cannot reconcile? Post them and i will answer them. By the same token I will pose Scripture to you to reconcile. Just as with the my statement above. You still cannot explain why Jesus would warn John and Peter to be careful of sin lest they go to hell, if the elect cannot go to hell.
Same with the rich young ruler, it is not about the ruler, it is about Jesus, Jesus knows who the elect are, if the ruler was not elect, why did Jesus say he could be saved? Wouldn't that be a lie? If the ruler was elect, why wasn't he saved? This is the problem with you doctrine, Scripture says the elect can be lost.


Roger---Can you show me a single verse of Scripture that says that Christ offers salvation to any man, if they will simply choose to accept it?


2 Corinthians 5:19-20 ( KJV ) 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Post your Scriptures.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 17th 2008, 03:35 PM
You can't seperate Jesus and God. Everyone knows that Jesus is God and God is Jesus. We shouldn't even try. If there was a secular sentence that was put together exactly like this one was, you wouldn't say that. You would say that "his faith" could refer to either. The problem is that you want it to point to Abraham. I want it to point to "him that justifieth the ungodly". Who's right? If this was the only scripture in the whole bible then either of us could be right. There would be nothing else to compare it to. But fortunately we have many, many scriptures in the bible. And when compared with the ones that talk about this, It can only be referring to Jesus/God's faith.

We have to look at more than just one scripture of course. When we look and see faith is a work and that our righteousness are as filthy rags and "faith of Christ" statements then we know what the answer must be. "His faith" MUST refer to Jesus.

In parts of the New Testament it's very hard to distinguish between Jesus and God. In the Old Testmament you can make more clear distinctions. There are times within the New Testament when Jesus clearly remarks of his oneness being so close with the Father, that literally it is essentially the Father walking among the disciples(i.e. Have I not been among you so long Philip, the Father and I are one, etc)

At other times, Jesus shows that he and the Father can indeed work independently(i.e. If it be of your will Father, I'm doing my Father's work)

I don't think anyone who states "Jesus is God" is incorrect in asserting this. There are times when the Father refers to the son as "God" and there is a time in scripture where Jesus makes a clear distinction that the Father alone is the only true God. The latter seems to be prevelant throught most of the epistles of John...and throughout the Apostle Paul's epistles.

You'll find that most of the time throughout the scripture...God is not one who is caught up on titles. He knows who is the one true God, thus as many people will say..there may be Lords many..and Gods many on this earth...but there is only one true God..and one true Lord that offer us salvation. Bless you in Christian Love.

Matthew

John146
Nov 17th 2008, 03:46 PM
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace"

That's one way of getting rid of the contradiction your doctrine forces on Scripture. Since Ro 4:16 clearly says that faith is by grace, just change the verse to say we should conclude that the faith by grace is our faith.If not for God's grace then we would have nothing to have faith in. We would have no hope. But because, by God's grace, Christ came to die for the sins of the whole world, all people have the opportunity to receive the free gift of eternal life by God's grace by putting one's complete faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. You want to take responsibility away from man and make man out to be some kind of puppet or robot. But human beings have God-given souls and consciences with which to use to make moral decisions that God expects all people to make. I'm sorry that you can't recognize that.


Trouble with this is that now you have (spiritually dead sinners) having faith by their own grace!Wrong


How can you conclude we are saved by God's grace through our faith, since faith is by grace? If faith is by grace, and clearly it is, then both faith and grace originate not from God, but from spiritually dead sinners. You can see that Abraham's faith is mentioned throughout the chapter. Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness (Romans 4:3). The faith of anyone who "believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly" (Rom 4:5) is also counted for righteousness. It is because of the context of the entire chapter that we can know that it is Abraham's faith and anyone who has faith like him that is in view in Romans 4:16. You have a lot of trouble reading scripture in context. You pluck verses out here and there while ignoring or missing the context.


Why do you refuse to accept the plain reading of Ro 4:16, as well as 1Ti 1:12-14? You have not harmonized the passage, you have simply created even more disharmony.I have explained it in context. You take many verses out of context and form a doctrine out of those.

Yukerboy
Nov 17th 2008, 04:10 PM
it is not God who chooses who will be saved but each person as the holy Spirit draws......One of the problems Christians have is that their doctrine is more important to them than the Scriptures. Anytime you have a Scripture that stands in opposition to your doctrine, your doctrine should come into question.

Hard to believe that one says the first statement and also says the second.

Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

1 Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

2 Thessalonians 2:13 because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.



it is not God who chooses who will be saved but each person as the holy Spirit draws.


And then my favorite.... John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

Let's look at the word "draw"

The Greek word used here is helko. Helko is used throughout the Bible. Drawing a sword in John 18:10. Did the sword choose to be drawn? Drawing a fishing net up in John 21:6. Did the net choose to be drawn up? Acts 16:19 says Paul and Silas were caught and drawn into the marketplace. Here, we find that draw can also mean drag. Acts 21:30 has Paul being dragged out of the temple. Do you think he chose to leave willingly?

It is the Father that draws (drags) you to Christ and this is because no one seeks Him. No one is righteous. If man was left to choose God on his own, no one would choose God.

Yuke

John146
Nov 17th 2008, 04:15 PM
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I did read what comes before it. It says "him that justifieth the ungodly". Who is that? Jesus. Then it says "his faith is counted for righteousness". Who's faith? The one that justifieth the ungodly. Jesus. This then harmonizes with what I told you about the translations in Hebrew and Greek. I know you want "his faith" to point to Abraham but that just doesn't square with what I already told you. However since "his faith" is point toward "him that justifieth the ungodly" then all harmonizes perfectly. This is truly sad. Will you go to any length to twist scripture in order to keep your doctrine afloat? It appears so.

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Your weak attempt to twist Romans 4:5 is laughable. Now, how are you going to twist verse 3? How does the "it" point back to anything but Abraham's faith here? You have no way around this one. Clearly, it was Abraham's faith that was counted unto him for righteousness. Similarly, in verse 5, it is the faith of "him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly" that is credited for righteousness. This is Scripture Interpretation 101 and you're failing the class.

The passage goes along with the rest of scripture. Having faith IN Jesus Christ is a requirement for salvation and justification. It couldn't be more clear.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

None of these say "Receive saving faith from Christ and you will be saved". Yet that is what your doctrine teaches. It takes responsibility away from people. People are required to put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. God does not do that for us. God desires for all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Your doctrine contradicts that by suggesting that He only wanted few to repent and be saved.


Come on now, I only changed it so you could see a little easier what I see it mean. The text stands as it is written just fine. Like I said above, "his" does not point back to Abraham but to "him that justifieth". It's grammatically correct and harmonizes perfectly. The way you want to interpret it ignores the absolute huge problem that we are not justified by works. And faith is a work.It is not the type of work that scripture says does not save or justify us. The type of works that scripture says do not save us are works of the law and good works of righteousness. We are only able to do good works AFTER we have already believed in Christ and have been saved. If our faith was not a component of salvation then the scriptures I quoted above would be false because each speaks of the responsibility of individuals to have faith in Christ in order to be saved. But, of course, they are true.


It absolutely MUST harmonize with everything the bible has to say and our faith helping to save us just doesn't.You'd have to twist the scriptures I quoted as well as many others in order to make scripture say that our faith is not one of the requirements for salvation.


But Christ's faith saving us does perfectly with everything the bible has to say.Christ didn't have faith. Did He need to believe in Himself in order to be saved? Of course not.

John146
Nov 17th 2008, 04:51 PM
Hard to believe that one says the first statement and also says the second.

Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

1 Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

2 Thessalonians 2:13 because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.We were predestined and elected according to the foreknowledge of God (Rom 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2). God knew beforehand who would believe the truth.

Take 2 Thess 2:13, for instance. Let's read the verses that precede it.

2 Thess 2
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Are these people damned because they never had any ability to accept the truth of the gospel of salvation? No. They willfully rejected it. Otherwise they would have been saved. This places all the responsibility for one not being saved on the individual rather than on God for supposedly not giving them the ability to accept the truth of the gospel.


And then my favorite.... John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

Let's look at the word "draw"

The Greek word used here is helko. Helko is used throughout the Bible. Drawing a sword in John 18:10. Did the sword choose to be drawn? Drawing a fishing net up in John 21:6. Did the net choose to be drawn up? Acts 16:19 says Paul and Silas were caught and drawn into the marketplace. Here, we find that draw can also mean drag. Acts 21:30 has Paul being dragged out of the temple. Do you think he chose to leave willingly?

It is the Father that draws (drags) you to Christ and this is because no one seeks Him. No one is righteous. If man was left to choose God on his own, no one would choose God.

YukeThe same word is used in John 12:32.

John 12
30Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33This he said, signifying what death he should die.

You can try to twist this verse if you want, but Jesus said He would draw all people unto Himself. Once people are drawn through the preaching of the word and convicting work of the Spirit they then must make a choice of whether or not to repent and surrender their wills and their lives to Christ. Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 20:16, Matt 22:14). Does God call people that have no ability to believe? No. They willfully reject the gospel despite being called to salvation. People reject Christ because they would not accept Him as Lord and Savior and not because they could not accept Him.

Matt 22
1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matt 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

God desires all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). It's only common sense then that Christ would want to draw all people to Himself. But not all people repent and are saved? Why? Because many willfully choose to reject Christ and choose the temporary pleasures of this life instead. Many decide that they don't want to have to answer to anyone or change their evil ways, so they refuse to surrender their lives and make Jesus the Lord of their lives.

Yukerboy
Nov 17th 2008, 05:31 PM
them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


It is impossible to receive something when it isn't given to you.


all the responsibility for one not being saved (is) on the individual rather than on God

Then I guess they have something to boast of. What made you believe? Were you smarter than those that don't? More righteous? More spiritual before salvation? Or did God draw you of His own sovereign will?


32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

And he does DRAG all men unto him... Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.


2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.


Who were the ones bidden to the wedding? I read this as the Jew.

Romans 11:25 Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Sure, the Jews would not come. They were hardened as God will harden whom he desires to harden.

John146
Nov 17th 2008, 06:02 PM
It is impossible to receive something when it isn't given to you.But it is possible to not receive (reject) something that is offered to you.


Then I guess they have something to boast of. What made you believe? Were you smarter than those that don't? More righteous? More spiritual before salvation? Or did God draw you of His own sovereign will?Where does scripture say that humbling ourselves and acknowledging that we are sinners in need of salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ is something we can boast about? It is when one stops boasting in himself or herself and acknowledges that they are nothing and need forgiveness and salvation through Christ that a person is saved.

Luke 18
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

In this parable, the publican humbled himself and confessed that He was a sinner and asked God to have mercy on him. Did he have any reason to boast after doing so? Of course not. Why would he try to boast after having just humbled himself before the Lord?

It's not my place to compare myself to others and try to say why I believe and others don't. I definitely believe that everyone has the choice of whether to believe or not. It has nothing to do with one person being better than another. It has to do with God loving the world so much that He gave His only Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) so that the whole world could be saved. God desires all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). You doctrine contradicts that fact.


And he does DRAG all men unto him... Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.Come on. That isn't what the context of John 12:32 is about. He was referring to the fact that He would speak to people's hearts and consciences through the Holy Spirit.


Who were the ones bidden to the wedding? I read this as the Jew.

Romans 11:25 Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Sure, the Jews would not come. They were hardened as God will harden whom he desires to harden.And who does He harden? Do you think He just randomly hardens people's hearts for no apparent reason? No. He hardens the hearts of people who have already hardened their own hearts. Pharaoh is one example. You can read passages like Romans 1:18-32 and 2 Thess 2:9-12 for other examples. Again, the Jews that rejected Christ did so because they would not accept Him and not because they could not accept Him.

Yukerboy
Nov 17th 2008, 06:12 PM
that humbling ourselves and acknowledging that we are sinners in need of salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ is something we can boast about?

So, what brought that about was that you were smarter than the others in that you were able to acknowledge you were a sinner in need of salvation, but they weren't. So, you do have something to boast about I guess. Good on you!


But it is possible to not receive (reject) something that is offered to you.


You will never receive something that isn't given to you. You can receive something that is given to you. However, nobody I know of has ever turned down a free gift.


Come on. That isn't what the context of John 12:32 is about. He was referring to the fact that He would speak to people's hearts and consciences through the Holy Spirit.


Ok, we disagree. I think that is EXACTLY what Christ referred to. You are allowed to believe what you want though, I don't see any other place where all men are drawn (dragged) to Christ.


And who does He harden? Do you think He just randomly hardens people's hearts for no apparent reason?

No, I think he has good reason. However, all people are hardened. We don't believe and then come unhardened. No, there is no one righteous. No one seeks after God. He has mercy on whom He chooses and hardens (or leaves hardened) those whom He chooses.

Yuke

John146
Nov 17th 2008, 06:38 PM
So, what brought that about was that you were smarter than the others in that you were able to acknowledge you were a sinner in need of salvation, but they weren't. So, you do have something to boast about I guess. Good on you!Wrong


You will never receive something that isn't given to you. You can receive something that is given to you. However, nobody I know of has ever turned down a free gift.It's only common sense to know that a free gift that's offered can be either accepted or rejected. Many people love their lives and the temporary pleasures of this life too much to turn that down in exchange for eternal life with Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Many people, unfortunately, do not want to humble themselves and answer to anyone under any circumstances. And many think they are just fine the way they are and don't need salvation. That is their choice to think that way.


Ok, we disagree. I think that is EXACTLY what Christ referred to. You are allowed to believe what you want though, I don't see any other place where all men are drawn (dragged) to Christ.You are all alone in your interpretation of that verse. Enjoy.


No, I think he has good reason.And what would that be? What reason would He have for not giving most people any chance to be saved?


However, all people are hardened. We don't believe and then come unhardened. No, there is no one righteous. No one seeks after God. He has mercy on whom He chooses and hardens (or leaves hardened) those whom He chooses.And what is His criteria for choosing who to have mercy on and who to harden? Hint: I already showed you. People don't seek after God if left entirely to themselves, but if He calls people through the preaching of the word and shows them their lost sinful state through the convicting power of the Holy Spirit then people are expected to respond and seek His forgiveness and salvation.

Here is God's message for sinners:

Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

To say that "no one seeks God" and leave it at that is to ignore these passages that say one must seek Him while He may be found. God reaches out to people and He expects people to respond and gives people that responsibility to choose.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Isaiah 66
2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

God looks for people who humble themselves and acknowledge that they are sinners in need of mercy, forgiveness and salvation. Those who choose to reject Him by not answering His call and remaining in their wickedness will eventually either be given over to their wickedness or they will die and then it's too late. That's why it says to "seek the Lord while He may be found". God gives people plenty of chances to repent and believe, but eventually it becomes too late.

Friend of I AM
Nov 17th 2008, 07:09 PM
I think John has made some good points about choice, our faith and involvement in the salvation process, and the ability of us to accept or reject what God has offerred. I think at times all of us can come across as prideful in our testimonies, due to the fact that we are typing on a message board - and don't have the ability to really discern what spirit is motivating an individual to type. All need to take to heart what is said within this forum, and pray to God that he leads them to the truth of his word.

In Christian Love,

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Nov 17th 2008, 07:26 PM
If I offended any or came across rude in any way, I'm sorry.

Michael

Yes you did!! Naw you didn't really offend me...God bless.

John146
Nov 17th 2008, 07:29 PM
What is sad is that you read mine and RogerW’s posts like you read the bible. You pick and choose what you want then act like the rest don’t exist. I have already explained Rom 4:3 to you in a previous post. I changed none of the original Greek text when I explained it to you. Yet you say it’s laughable and sad? I won’t even attempt to explain the other verses to you that you brought up. I would to someone who’s been receptive but obviously you haven’t even considered you’re wrong. It’s amazing. So much pride in your doctrine. So convinced that you’re right even when proof after proof after proof that you’re wrong. From not just me but RogerW and Yukerboy as well. It's not pride. It's that what Romans 4:3-5 is saying is very obvious and requires one to twist it in order for it to not be referring to Abraham's faith and the faith of anyone who "believeth on him who justifieth the ungodly" that is counted for righteousness. It isn't that Abraham or anyone else with faith is righteous in and of themselves. It's that their faith is pleasing to God and that is why God counts their faith for righteousness. Can you show me commentary from any respectable Bible scholar who agrees with you on your interpretation of that passage?



I really didn’t expect any different though. In the very end of it all it’s not my job to convince you of anything. It’s my job to only bring truth, not beat it into someone’s heart. How can the seed I’m sowing take root on stony ground? It’s all up to God who hears and who doesn’t. But of course you don’t believe this. Of course you believe it’s all up to you.Not true. I need God to reveal the truth to me like anyone else. I just happen to agree with scripture that people are held responsible for their beliefs and are rewarded or condemned based on whether or not they believe in Christ (John 3:18).


You believe you can choose to be saved.I believe I had no part in the decision for God to love the world so much that He sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16). I believe since God is impartial and desires all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) this means He would make a way for all people to be saved. And He did.


You believe you can choose to take some credit.No, I don't. I don't believe one can take credit just because they acknowledge that they are a sinner, can't save themselves and want Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Savior.


You believe that you are better than the bible says you are because of those beliefs.I'm glad God is my Judge and not you. I am nothing apart from Christ. But even apart from Christ I had a God-given heart and conscience with which I could use to make moral decisions. Just like everyone else.


In your world, when you’re in heaven, you will be able to boast that you were smart enough to believe when others weren’t.Why? Where does it say that believing has anything to do with one's level of intelligence?


You’ll be able to take pride in your “decision” to follow Christ.Tell me, did the publican in Luke 18:9-14 take pride in his decision to humble himself and ask God for mercy?


When some creature that God created asked how you became saved, you’ll be able to say because of YOUR FAITH. No, it was because of God's grace that salvation was possible to begin with. I will be able to tell them that I realized that I was a lost sinner, couldn't save myself and I called on God for salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ, just as God requires all people to do. There is no room to boast for merely doing what God expects you to do.


Well, in mine and RogerW’s world when we’re in heaven, We won’t be able to take credit for anything. Well know that we had nothing to do with it. We will be very humbled by God’s glorious grace and mercy toward us. When we’re asked by some other creature that God created how we were saved, we’ll say by the grace of God. By His wonderful mercy and grace were we saved. I, too, believe we are saved by God's wonderful mercy and grace. Unlike you, I believe people are responsible for who they choose to give their allegiance and lives to. I don't see people as robots or puppets as you do. Scripture clearly teaches that people are condemned for not believing in Christ (John 3:18). Therefore, you believe that people are condemned for not doing something (believing in Christ) that God did not give them the ability to do. That would be like being condemned for not being able to lift a semi truck over your head or not being able to fly like Superman. You have no answer for why an impartial God would not give most people any chance to be saved.

Scripture says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze 18:23, 33:11) and instead desire that they turn from their evil ways so that they can be saved. Your doctrine says that God couldn't care less if the wicked die because it is His pleasure to let them die in their sins while providing no way out so that they will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

RogerW
Nov 17th 2008, 07:37 PM
2 Corinthians 5:19-20 ( KJV ) 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Post your Scriptures.

I can't believe that you would come to the conclusion that this verse is an offer of salvation if you had not come with a preconcieved determination to find any passage of Scripture to fit your doctrine of free will. You'll have to do better than this. But let me spare you the time and trouble...there is not a single verse in Scripture that makes salvation an offer. Again and again we find salvation is ALWAYS given, not offered, as though it could be accepted or rejected.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life;
Joh 17:2 ...that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Read the verse carefully, it is NOT an offer it is a command, or a plea. And to whom is Paul giving this command or plea? ...it's not unbelievers! READ THE CONTEXT!

It is God who reconciles men to Himself by Jesus Christ. Clearly God is NOT telling spiritually dead sinners to reconcile themselves to Him, after telling us that it is He Who reconciles men through Christ.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

The NT teaches that God restores us to Himself by "putting us in right relations with Himself."

Again, we read, it is God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. After saying twice that God reconciles man to Himself, it is foolish to say this passage tells us that God is telling spiritually dead men to reconcile themselves to God through their free will.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Vs 20..."Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ." In view of what God through Christ has done for sinners, Paul takes most seriously the divine charge to preach and teach the good news of reconciliation. God charges them and us to be faithful preachers of God's message of redemption, of His redeeming love.

Through the gospel message God will give spiritually dead sinners ears to hear, and His gift of faith to believe, that they might have eternal life in Christ. "Be reconciled to God" is a command to do something once for all. The plea, through the message of the gospel goes unto all men. On the basis of Christ's redeeming work, God entreats all people everywhere to listen obediently to His Word of reconciliation.

It is much like the command for all men everywhere to repent and believe. Who will be reconciled, who will believe? The one given ears to hear, and faith to believe through the power of the gospel (Word) and the Holy Spirit. It makes no sense to tell spiritually dead men to be reconciled to God, but it makes perfect sense to tell those who have been given eternal life in Christ to be reconciled to God. Whenever believers fall into sin and seek forgiveness, they have assurance they can turn to Him and find that God's hand remains extended to them always.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 17th 2008, 07:50 PM
If not for God's grace then we would have nothing to have faith in. We would have no hope. But because, by God's grace, Christ came to die for the sins of the whole world, all people have the opportunity to receive the free gift of eternal life by God's grace by putting one's complete faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Eric, you have yet to show where this complete faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior come from? Spiritually dead sinners, in bondage to satan, sin and death do NOT have saving faith! And you have not shown otherwise.



You want to take responsibility away from man and make man out to be some kind of puppet or robot. But human beings have God-given souls and consciences with which to use to make moral decisions that God expects all people to make. I'm sorry that you can't recognize that.

Now you are showing even greater confusion. Salvation is of the Lord! What happens to men when they are born again of the Spirit? They are given new hearts, and new desires, they can now freely choose to serve God. You can liken that to being a robot or puppet if you like, but considering the alternative; i.e. being slaves of Satan, sin and death, it doesn't sound so bad to be puppets of the Lord. What moral decisions can men make while in bondage to satan, sin and death? If God does not choose to give spiritual life to some men (of His own choosing) then no man would make the moral decisions that please God. I'm sorry that you cannot understand that!

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Nov 17th 2008, 07:52 PM
Quote:
Come on. That isn't what the context of John 12:32 is about. He was referring to the fact that He would speak to people's hearts and consciences through the Holy Spirit.

I agree, as John 12:32 relates of Jesus' reference in John 3:14, 8:28.


Ok, we disagree. I think that is EXACTLY what Christ referred to. You are allowed to believe what you want though, I don't see any other place where all men are drawn (dragged) to Christ.

Read the usage of the Greek word "helkuo"='draw' were Jesus uses it in John 6:44 in reference to what He's said in the surrounding verses.
Only those who "see" the Son are drawn to Him, and only God can reveal Him to them, as they must see with the noetic, the eyes of the heart.

If you disagree with this understanding, please give two or three other verses that agree with your understanding of being "dragged" to God.

John146
Nov 17th 2008, 07:54 PM
I can't believe that you would come to the conclusion that this verse is an offer of salvation if you had not come with a preconcieved determination to find any passage of Scripture to fit your doctrine of free will. You'll have to do better than this. But let me spare you the time and trouble...there is not a single verse in Scripture that makes salvation an offer. Again and again we find salvation is ALWAYS given, not offered, as though it could be accepted or rejected.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life;
Joh 17:2 ...that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Read the verse carefully, it is NOT an offer it is a command, or a plea. And to whom is Paul giving this command or plea? ...it's not unbelievers! READ THE CONTEXT!Speaking of context. Who is it that is given eternal life?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Eternal life is given to those who accept the offer by putting their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. That is the way in which the offer is accepted. You always like to leave that part out as if believing in Christ is not required.

Also, passages like Matthew 22:1-14 show that salvation is an offer. It is an invitation to whosoever will accept it (John 3:16, Rev 22:17). Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 20:16, Matt 22:14). You believe that God wastes His time calling many who He never gives any chance to be chosen for salvation. That makes no sense at all. Instead, it is explained that there were those who would not accept the invitation and chose not to come. They would not have been invited/called if they did not have the ability to accept the invitation/respond to the call. That is what your doctrine misses.

John146
Nov 17th 2008, 08:05 PM
Eric, you have yet to show where this complete faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior come from? Spiritually dead sinners, in bondage to satan, sin and death do NOT have saving faith! And you have not shown otherwise.I have shown otherwise repeatedly.

Rom 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Tell me, was the publican in Jesus' parable in Luke 18:9-14 a spiritually dead sinner at the time that he confesses that he is a sinner and asks God for mercy or not?


Now you are showing even greater confusion. Salvation is of the Lord!Yes, it is! None of us died on a cross for the sins of the whole world, did we. There's nothing confusing about that.


What happens to men when they are born again of the Spirit? They are given new hearts, and new desires, they can now freely choose to serve God. You can liken that to being a robot or puppet if you like, but considering the alternative; i.e. being slaves of Satan, sin and death, it doesn't sound so bad to be puppets of the Lord. What moral decisions can men make while in bondage to satan, sin and death?Read Romans 1:18-32. Are people born with no ability to make moral decisions or do their poor decisions make them spiritually blind to the need for salvation? Are people born vain in their imaginations or do they become that way? Are people born with no ability to understand what God has made known to them or do they decide to profess themselves to be wise and decide that they do not need to retain God in their knowledge?


If God does not choose to give spiritual life to some men (of His own choosing) then no man would make the moral decisions that please God. I'm sorry that you cannot understand that! I'm not sorry that I don't agree with your doctrine. I do understand it and I disagree with it. I believe that you are not willing to acknowledge that God desires all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) and that this desire would lead Him to make a way for all people to be saved. But He's not interested in a puppet master to puppet relationship. He wants people to believe in His Son willingly. If He was interested in a puppet master and his puppets type relationship then all people would be saved since we know that He desires all people to be saved.

RogerW
Nov 17th 2008, 08:05 PM
I agree, as John 12:32 relates of Jesus' reference in John 3:14, 8:28.

Read the usage of the Greek word "helkuo"='draw' were Jesus uses it in John 6:44 in reference to what He's said in the surrounding verses.
Only those who "see" the Son are drawn to Him, and only God can reveal Him to them, as they must see with the noetic, the eyes of the heart.

If you disagree with this understanding, please give two or three other verses that agree with your understanding of being "dragged" to God.

Greetings Eve,

When does Christ draw all men to Himself? I don't think that you will argue that all men are drawn to Christ to be saved...but then again, maybe you would? I however am convinced that Scripture clearly shows us not ALL (as inclusive of every man) is drawn to Christ for salvation. Therefore either Yuke is right and ALL (meaning every man) are drawn to Him at the Judgment. OR All simply means ALL who come to Him will be drawn through His cross.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Nov 17th 2008, 08:19 PM
Greetings Eve,

When does Christ draw all men to Himself? I don't think that you will argue that all men are drawn to Christ to be saved...but then again, maybe you would? I however am convinced that Scripture clearly shows us not ALL (as inclusive of every man) is drawn to Christ for salvation. Therefore either Yuke is right and ALL (meaning every man) are drawn to Him at the Judgment. OR All simply means ALL who come to Him will be drawn through His cross.

Many Blessings,
RW
Greetings Roger,
I've already posted the when/how in my previous post.
Please explain yourself from my reference, John 6:44, in reference to John 12:32.
My understanding according to the Greek is that those thus "drawn" are defined in verse 37 of ch 6, as "all" those who are given (without exception). In 12:32 the "all" are not thus defined, and denote "all" (without distinction).
"lifted up" has double meaning, in glorification and judgment

Peace
Eve

RogerW
Nov 17th 2008, 08:19 PM
Speaking of context. Who is it that is given eternal life?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Eternal life is given to those who accept the offer by putting their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. That is the way in which the offer is accepted. You always like to leave that part out as if believing in Christ is not required.

The verses you quote all say "he that believes", not those who accept the offer by putting their faith in Christ. Who will believe? Where does Scripture teach us that salvation is offered, and not given?



Also, passages like Matthew 22:1-14 show that salvation is an offer. It is an invitation to whosoever will accept it (John 3:16, Rev 22:17). Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 20:16, Matt 22:14). You believe that God wastes His time calling many who He never gives any chance to be chosen for salvation. That makes no sense at all. Instead, it is explained that there were those who would not accept the invitation and chose not to come. They would not have been invited/called if they did not have the ability to accept the invitation/respond to the call. That is what your doctrine misses.

All are invited to hear the gospel message, but only those given ears to hear, and faith to believe are given eternal life in Christ.

Every man hearing the gospel and remaining in unbelief are without excuse. They all have knowledge of God, but they all willfully choose to supress this knowledge, because they love the darkness rather than the light. They do not, will not, cannot come to God because they choose to stay in sin and unbelief. Every single man born in Adam would face the same exact fate unless God shows mercy to whosoever He will. God desires a people for Himself, a people to bestow His love upon and to reveal His glory to. Therefore God intervenes in the lives of some men giving them ears to hear His voice, and giving them saving faith to believe...every one of these are given eternal life in Christ.

It's seems the hardest thing for you to understand is that God will have mercy and compassion on whomever He desires, and the rest He leaves in unbelief and darkness. Is it God's fault they are in darkness and unbelief? Hardly! He sent His Son that they might have life, but they willfully choose to remain in ignorance and unbelief. God saves some men or no men would be saved. This is a God of great love, mercy and compassion for His elect people.

When you get to heaven you might dare to ask the Potter just why He chose to save only some men, when He could very well have chosen to save every man. But I will be content in the knowledge that He is the Potter and I am merely the clay, and He can do whatsoever He wants to do with His creation.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 17th 2008, 08:37 PM
Greetings Roger,
I've already posted the when/how in my previous post.
Please explain yourself from my reference, John 6:44, in reference to John 12:32.
My understanding according to the Greek is that those thus "drawn" are defined in verse 37 of ch 6, as "all" those who are given (without exception). In 12:32 the "all" are not thus defined, and denote "all" (without distinction).
"lifted up" has double meaning, in glorification and judgment

Peace
Eve

Greetings Eve,

The "all" in vs 37 is qualified "that the Father giveth me". You make a good point, because the all given are also the all who are drawn. Notice in Jo 12:32 that "men" is in italics, so the verse says "will draw all unto me." Looking at both passages the "all" drawn to Christ, can only be speaking as all who have been drawn to Him through His cross. The same who were given Him of the Father, and drawn by the Father.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Looking at the context of vs 32, seems to agree with the conclusion I've drawn (no pun intended:D).

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 17th 2008, 08:54 PM
I agree, as John 12:32 relates of Jesus' reference in John 3:14, 8:28.

Read the usage of the Greek word "helkuo"='draw' were Jesus uses it in John 6:44 in reference to what He's said in the surrounding verses.
Only those who "see" the Son are drawn to Him, and only God can reveal Him to them, as they must see with the noetic, the eyes of the heart.

If you disagree with this understanding, please give two or three other verses that agree with your understanding of being "dragged" to God.There aren't many verses that use that word, so what you're requesting is a difficult task. If it means to be dragged irresistibly then it could not be speaking of all people because not all people are saved.

My view is that all people are called to salvation but few are chosen to salvation because few answer the call by turning from their sins and putting their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. I've always equated the drawing with the calling, but I would allow for the possibility that people are irresistibly drawn or dragged to Christ after they have put their faith in Him. I still lean towards believing that this "drawing" can be resisted just like the call of salvation can be rejected.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

2 Tim 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Isaiah 63
7I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

John146
Nov 17th 2008, 09:36 PM
The verses you quote all say "he that believes", not those who accept the offer by putting their faith in Christ. Who will believe? Where does Scripture teach us that salvation is offered, and not given? You may not like my answer to that question but it doesn't mean you have to keep asking it as if I haven't already answered it several times. :rolleyes:


All are invited to hear the gospel message, but only those given ears to hear, and faith to believe are given eternal life in Christ. Where does scripture teach this?


Every man hearing the gospel and remaining in unbelief are without excuse. They all have knowledge of God, but they all willfully choose to supress this knowledge, because they love the darkness rather than the light. They do not, will not, cannot come to God because they choose to stay in sin and unbelief.Where does scripture teach that they never have the ability come to God?


Every single man born in Adam would face the same exact fate unless God shows mercy to whosoever He will. God desires a people for Himself, a people to bestow His love upon and to reveal His glory to. Therefore God intervenes in the lives of some men giving them ears to hear His voice, and giving them saving faith to believe...every one of these are given eternal life in Christ. You believe in a partial God, in other words. But the God of the Bible is not partial.


It's seems the hardest thing for you to understand is that God will have mercy and compassion on whomever He desires, and the rest He leaves in unbelief and darkness. Is it God's fault they are in darkness and unbelief? Hardly! He sent His Son that they might have life, but they willfully choose to remain in ignorance and unbelief. God saves some men or no men would be saved. This is a God of great love, mercy and compassion for His elect people. Is it really a willful choice for them to remain in ignorance and unbelief if they have no other choice, as your doctrine would suggest? Since when does a willful "choice" have only one option to choose from?


When you get to heaven you might dare to ask the Potter just why He chose to save only some men, when He could very well have chosen to save every man.I won't have to ask Him that question because that's not how it works. Instead, I will thank Him for being an impartial God and giving everyone, including myself, a chance to be saved through the shed blood of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.


But I will be content in the knowledge that He is the Potter and I am merely the clay, and He can do whatsoever He wants to do with His creation. You are misinterpreting what scripture teaches regarding God being the potter and man being the clay. Nowhere is that analogy used to suggest that God makes some with the ability to believe in Christ while withholding that ability from the rest. It is only used in reference to nations or individuals being used for God's purposes. God desires all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) so it would not make sense for Him to desire all people to be saved and at the same time to make most people with no ability to repent, believe and be saved.

Where is the scripture that says God makes most people in such a way that they have no ability to repent and believe in Christ? Why are many called, but few chosen, Roger? In Matthew 22:1-14, did those who refused to accept the invitation refuse because they could not or because they would not? Your doctrine would say that people rejected Christ because God did not choose for them to accept Him. That clearly contradicts Matthew 22:1-14 as well as the following passage:

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Teke
Nov 17th 2008, 09:39 PM
There aren't many verses that use that word, so what you're requesting is a difficult task. If it means to be dragged irresistibly then it could not be speaking of all people because not all people are saved.

My view is that all people are called to salvation but few are chosen to salvation because few answer the call by turning from their sins and putting their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. I've always equated the drawing with the calling, but I would allow for the possibility that people are irresistibly drawn or dragged to Christ after they have put their faith in Him. I still lean towards believing that this "drawing" can be resisted just like the call of salvation can be rejected.


Hi John,
The only matter we differ on is the soteriological aspect of God. You are making a difference or division in grace where none exists. God's grace is to all creation. Therefore salvation by grace is for everyone. God will save everyone for judgment day, that for certain.

The only distinction I have called into account is those who are called to be ministers of God. God picks who He decides to be His ministers of His grace/salvation. By all counts they would be termed "deacons" in the sense that they are in charge of caring for the household of God, the church.

No one, far as I know, just decides to be a minister in the manner I'm speaking of. But when the Son is revealed to them by the Father they will become His minister, in service to Him (as a deacon does with the church, be they clergy or laity). Undeniably love draws them.

My point in quoting you was to show Yukerboy's response. My question was mainly directed toward him. You and I are not as far apart on God's grace.
Roger, however, is being far more obstinate about this. Maybe God does need to "drag" Him along here. :lol:

Roger's elect view shows a difference between the clergy and laity model, a difference which doesn't exist, in the sense that clergy is the elite and above the laity. If anyone was elite it was Jesus, and He didn't lord over people, so to speak, no elitism there. He gave to all the people, even the ones who could not receive Him.

This Orthodixie woman doesn't see any limited grace or elitism in our Lord God. And my church has been holding ground against this RC concept since the beginning. Calvin himself never held such a view. His was more in line with the Waldensian movement that Rome tried to crush in Italy. Not this twenty first century new doctrine attributed to him.

Peace be with you,
Eve

John146
Nov 17th 2008, 09:44 PM
Hi John,
The only matter we differ on is the soteriological aspect of God. You are making a difference or division in grace where none exists. God's grace is to all creation.I didn't say otherwise


Therefore salvation by grace is for everyone. God will save everyone for judgment day, that for certain.Can you clarify what you're saying here?


The only distinction I have called into account is those who are called to be ministers of God. God picks who He decides to be His ministers of His grace/salvation. By all counts they would be termed "deacons" in the sense that they are in charge of caring for the household of God, the church.

No one, far as I know, just decides to be a minister in the manner I'm speaking of. But when the Son is revealed to them by the Father they will become His minister, in service to Him (as a deacon does with the church, be they clergy or laity). Undeniably love draws them.

My point in quoting you was to show Yukerboy's response. My question was mainly directed toward him. You and I are not as far apart on God's grace.
Roger, however, is being far more obstinate about this. Maybe God does need to "drag" Him along here. :lol:

Roger's elect view shows a difference between the clergy and laity model, a difference which doesn't exist, in the sense that clergy is the elite and above the laity. If anyone was elite it was Jesus, and He didn't lord over people, so to speak, no elitism there. He gave to all the people, even the ones who could not receive Him.

This Orthodixie woman doesn't see any limited grace or elitism in our Lord God. And my church has been holding ground against this RC concept since the beginning. Calvin himself never held such a view. His was more in line with the Waldensian movement that Rome tried to crush in Italy. Not this twenty first century new doctrine attributed to him. Okay.

Teke
Nov 17th 2008, 09:53 PM
Greetings Eve,

The "all" in vs 37 is qualified "that the Father giveth me".

In case you missed my point, that was without exception. Everything is given to the Son by the Father without exception, meaning whether they know it or not.


You make a good point, because the all given are also the all who are drawn. Notice in Jo 12:32 that "men" is in italics, so the verse says "will draw all unto me." Looking at both passages the "all" drawn to Christ, can only be speaking as all who have been drawn to Him through His cross. The same who were given Him of the Father, and drawn by the Father.

Note my point, without distinction, meaning it is not only the Jews who will be called or drawn. So the "all" given is not the "all" drawn. Those who see Him lifted up are the ones drawn. Meaning those whom God reveals the Son to are drawn by the Son.
And this doesn't mean that others do not have salvation because they have not seen the Son, God just hasn't revealed Him to them, it may even be God's way of them working out their salvation through their suffering. This doesn't excuse ministers of Christ from ministering to all people. As their ministry becomes an example to those they minister to, since they are representatives of Christ being part of His Body.

So without exception (meaning even if they haven't seen/known the Son) are all freely given salvation by God. And without distinction does God call His ministers. We see this in the actions of Christ. He went to all people, but sometimes He called His ministers, the holy Apostles, to Himself to speak to them privately, which is one of the benefits we are not to forget about in being His priesthood the Church. :)

Peace be with you,
Eve

Teke
Nov 17th 2008, 10:00 PM
Can you clarify what you're saying here?


This is what the church preaches to mankind. That there will be a final judgment and all will be held accountable. Even Christians must face this.

John146
Nov 17th 2008, 10:04 PM
This is what the church preaches to mankind. That there will be a final judgment and all will be held accountable. Even Christians must face this.Right. But we will inherit the kingdom of the Father (1 Cor 15:50-54, Matt 25:34, Matt 13:43) while unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire (Matt 13:42, Matt 13:50, Matt 25:41, Rev 20:15).

Yukerboy
Nov 17th 2008, 11:04 PM
Only those who "see" the Son are drawn to Him, and only God can reveal Him to them, as they must see with the noetic, the eyes of the heart.

If you disagree with this understanding, please give two or three other verses that agree with your understanding of being "dragged" to God.


Teke, I posted this earlier, but will repost to make it easy.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

Let's look at the word "draw"

The Greek word used here is helko. Helko is used throughout the Bible. Drawing a sword in John 18:10. Did the sword choose to be drawn? Drawing a fishing net up in John 21:6. Did the net choose to be drawn up? Acts 16:19 says Paul and Silas were caught and drawn into the marketplace. Here, we find that draw can also mean drag. Acts 21:30 has Paul being dragged out of the temple. Do you think he chose to leave willingly?

It is the Father that draws (drags) you to Christ and this is because no one seeks Him. No one is righteous. If man was left to choose God on his own, no one would choose God.

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 01:34 AM
Hard to believe that one says the first statement and also says the second.
Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.
Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will
1 Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,
2 Thessalonians 2:13 because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
And then my favorite.... John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.
Let's look at the word "draw"
The Greek word used here is helko. Helko is used throughout the Bible. Drawing a sword in John 18:10. Did the sword choose to be drawn? Drawing a fishing net up in John 21:6. Did the net choose to be drawn up? Acts 16:19 says Paul and Silas were caught and drawn into the marketplace. Here, we find that draw can also mean drag. Acts 21:30 has Paul being dragged out of the temple. Do you think he chose to leave willingly?
It is the Father that draws (drags) you to Christ and this is because no one seeks Him. No one is righteous. If man was left to choose God on his own, no one would choose God.
Yuke

Thank you Yukerboy,

This is exactly what I am talking about. Instead of prooftexting, why don't you put all of these verses in the context that they were written in and explain them?? I will,


Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

Who is Paul speaking of here? The elect. Who are they? Just before this we see Paul saying,

Romans 8:29-30 ( KJV ) 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This gives a description of the elect, these are the ones chosen by God. What does it say concerning these? Those who God foreknew, the Greek word here means "knew before," before what? Before the time that Paul is writing. The people God predetermined would be conformed to the image of His Son, these people God called, He justified, and He glorified. The first thing to notice is that all of the verbs are past tense. All of these things happened prior to Paul writing this epistle to the Romans. These are completed acts of God. But who are these people? Paul says they were called, who are the called? Look at verse 28,

Romans 8:28 ( KJV ) 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

The called, are those that love God. Th Greek word used for called also means invited. So, the elect are those who love God. Were they predestined to love God ? Let's see what Jesus says,

John 14:23-24 ( KJV ) 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

Jesus makes it clear that those who love God, do so of their own free will. Therefore those who are elect are those who choose to love Jesus.
Paul's statements in Romans 8 are thus, in verse 28 Paul is giving encouragement to the Christians at Rome, he tells them not to worry because God works all things together for good to those who love Him. To prove this he makes his following statements, look what God has done for those in the past.Those He knew before (Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, etc.) He had determined before that they would be conformed to the image of His Son. They would be called, Justified, and glorified. See He has done this. Then he says who shall bring any charge against God's elect (you guys in the church at Rome), Cheer up look what God did in the past for Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and David, He'll do the same for you.


Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Paul is making an argument against the idea that God has rejected Israel, He sights Isaiah when Isaiah said to God that there were none left but himself, and God said He had reserved 7000 men. Likewise Paul makes the same assertion that there is still a remnant according to the election of grace. He says, what then? Israel hath not found what she seeks but the election has found it. Who is the election? Those who love God. Paul is speaking here of the Jews, the ones who believe are the election of grace. Israel did not find it because they sought it by the works of the Law. Paul just said if it is of works then it is no more grace. He is saying that Israel sought salvation by works of the law and the election of grace sought it by faith. Paul goes on to say, that those who sought it by works of the law have been blinded. But Paul says, have they stumbled that they should fall? In other words, have they fallen and cannot be saved? Paul says God forbid! He says rather, through their fall, salvation has come to the gentiles, to provoke them, the unbelieving Jews, to jealousy. Paul says, if their fall turns out to be a great thing for the gentiles, how much more will their fullness be? Paul says, if by any means, that is pretty powerful, if by any means, he might provoke them, to get them to imitate him in following Christ that He might save some of them. He goes on to speak of the olive tree and how the natural branches, the unbelieving Jews, were broken off because they did not believe, and the gentiles who believe will be grafted in. He tells them to be careful because if God broke off the natural branches for unbelief, they too could be broken off. He then says that if the natural branches, the unbelieving Jews, do not remain in unbelief but turn and believe, they will be grafted in again.


Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

In this verse Paul is speaking of himself and the believing Jews who were with him. not in verses 3-14 the use of first and second person plural pronouns.

Ephesians 1:3-14 ( KJV ) 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Paul is speaking of two different groups of people, one group in which Paul includes himself is the us, we, our group, the other group is the you, your group. All of the things contained in verses 3-12 pertain to Israel. These were promises made to Israel,

Romans 9:1-5 ( KJV ) 1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

God chose the Jews to be his people and these are promises made to them, which Paul speaks of in Ephesians 1. Also notice what Paul says in Ephesians 1:12, "who first trusted in Christ", it was the Jews who first trusted in Christ. Paul says all of these things pertain to those who first trusted in Christ, that is the Jews. In verse 13 He says, in who you also trusted, when you heard the gospel of your salvation, now he is speaking to the Ephesians. Paul says that you also were sealed into Christ "AFTER" you believed, not before the foundation of the world. Then in verse 14 Paul brings the two groups together and says the holy Spirit is the earnest of "OUR" inheritance.


Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

This verse falls in under the above explanation.



1 Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

1 Thessalonians 1:2-5 ( KJV ) 2We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 3Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

1 Thessalonians 1:2-5 ( YLT ) 2We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, 3unceasingly remembering of you the work of the faith, and the labour of the love, and the endurance of the hope, of our Lord Jesus Christ, in the presence of our God and Father, 4having known, brethren beloved, by God, your election, 5because our good news did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance, even as ye have known of what sort we became among you because of you,

We have already established who the elect are, they are those who love God. What did Jesus say? He who keeps my commands, it is he who loves me. Notice the portions of the text I have bolded, work of faith, labor of love, endurance of the hope. Theses are those who love God, so yes they will be counted among the elect.


2 Thessalonians 2:13 because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

We established in the previous verse that those of the church at Thessalonica were those who love God, therefore they are of the elect. However let us continue to make the point.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-15 ( KJV ) 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

You see they were not damned because they were not chosen, they were damned because they would not accept the love of the truth, the truth that would save them. Those of the church in Thessalonica did receive the truth and therefore are of the elect of God.

Now, let's deal with the word received. The Greek word for received is in the middle voice which means that the action is being performed on them by themselves.

The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament
G1209. δέχομαι dechomai; fut. dexomai, perf. dedegmai (Acts 8:14 with mid. meaning, has received to herself), mid. deponent. To accept an offer deliberately and readily. To take to oneself what is presented or brought by another, to receive. Trans.: (I) Of things: (A) To take, receive, receive into one’s hands (Luke 2:28 implying from his parents; Luke 16:6, 7, "take thy bill" implying back from me; Luke 22:17, "when he received the cup from an attendant" [a.t.]; Eph. 6:17, "and take the helmet of salvation"; Sept.: 2 Chr. 29:16, 22). (B) Generally to receive, accept, e.g., letters (Acts 22:5; 28:21); the grace or the collection (2 Cor. 8:4); whatever was sent from the Philippians (Phil. 4:18). See Sept.: Gen. 33:10; Ex. 29:25; 32:4.

Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries
G1209 δέχομαι dechomai dekh'-om-ahee Middle voice of a primary verb; to receive (in various applications, literally or figuratively):—accept, receive, take. Compare G2983.


James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

James 1:18 ( KJV ) 18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Again let's look at the context, who is James speaking to?

James 1:1 ( KJV ) 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James is speaking to the Jews. Also notice what he says, "that we should be a kind of firstfruits." Let's look at other mentions of firstfruits.

Romans 7:1 ( KJV ) 1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Who were those who know the law, are they not the Jews? Paul starts here speaking to the Jews and continues through chapter 11:13

Romans 8:17-25 ( KJV ) 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Again the Jews

Romans 11:13-18 ( KJV ) 13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Paul here says that if the firstfruit is holy the lump is holy. What is the first fruit? Remember Paul was just speaking of the election of grace, the Jews who had believed, they are the first fruit.
However even if you wanted to apply this verse to the gentiles, it still doesn't prove predestination, James calls them brethren and, of the faith, so they are also the ones who love God, and are therefore of the elect.

continued,

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 01:35 AM
And now for your favorite,



And then my favorite.... John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.
Let's look at the word "draw"
The Greek word used here is helko. Helko is used throughout the Bible. Drawing a sword in John 18:10. Did the sword choose to be drawn? Drawing a fishing net up in John 21:6. Did the net choose to be drawn up? Acts 16:19 says Paul and Silas were caught and drawn into the marketplace. Here, we find that draw can also mean drag. Acts 21:30 has Paul being dragged out of the temple. Do you think he chose to leave willingly?
It is the Father that draws (drags) you to Christ and this is because no one seeks Him. No one is righteous. If man was left to choose God on his own, no one would choose God.


OK, you said God drags or draws men to Christ. So I assume you mean that the one drawn "MUST" come, given the context of the post. So, my question to you is this, is everyone saved?

Jesus said this,

John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The Greek word used here is also helko.

So, we have a dilemma, one of us has our Scripture verse out of context.

I say it is you, here's why.

I would like to explain John 6:37:45, it is not speaking of Calvinistic election.

John 6:37-45 ( KJV ) 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

First let's set the scene, God was setting the scene for the crucifiction, Jesus is speaking to unbelieving Jews. Now these verses did not apply to you or I, when Jesus said this, salvation had not yet come to the gentiles. Jesus himself said,

Matthew 15:24 ( KJV ) 24But he answered and said,I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:5-7 ( KJV ) 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
So these verses only concern the Jews of Jesus day, also notice what Jesus said in verse 40,
John 6:40 ( KJV ) 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No one today will see the Son. Now, Jesus said that no one could come to Him unless the Father draws
Him, this is correct. God was setting up the crucifiction and for that to take place the Jews would have to reject the Messiah, God determined that Christ would die for sins,

Acts 2:23 ( KJV ) 23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

For this to happen the Jews would have to reject the Messiah, so God blinded Israel,

Jesus

Mark 4:11-12 ( KJV ) 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Isaiah

Isaiah 6:9-10 ( KJV ) 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Paul

Romans 11:25 ( KJV ) 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul

Romans 11:8 ( KJV ) 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this
day.

Now had they understood, they would not have crucified the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:8 ( KJV ) 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

So since Israel was blinded NO ONE could come to Christ unless they were drawn by the Father, this is shown is verse 45,

John 6:45 ( KJV ) 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

So prior to the crucifiction all those who were drawn by the father come to Christ and he will in no way cast them out. Jesus said that it was the Fathers will that He should lift them up at the last day, Now the question is what does He mean by "it was the Fathers will that He should lift them up at the last day" is this something that must happen or is it what the Father desires to happen? I say that this is what the Father desires to happen but it doesn't have to happen, let's look at it. First the Calvinist would say that those who are drawn or given to Christ are the elect, So let's see who they are, John 17 tells us who they are,

John 17:2 ( KJV ) 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 17:6-8 ( KJV ) 6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

So we see from John 17 that the ones given to Christ by the Father were the disciples, Now Jesus said He should raise them up at the last day. Is that a guarantee? No,

John 17:12 ( KJV ) 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Now Judas was lost He will not be lifted up at the last day, you can say Judas wasn't saved, but you can't say that Judas wasn't one of those given to Christ by the Father. Judas WAS given to Christ by the Father. So it was the desire of God that all be lifted up, but that did not happen.
Now as I said earlier this all took place so that the crucifiction could take place, after the crucifiction the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles, which is shown by Jesus statement in John 12,

John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So we see that after the crucifiction the gospel has gone out to ALL men, now evryone has the opertunity to receive the Gospel. Which is evidenced in Acts 10,

Acts 10:34-35 ( KJV ) 34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (Gentile)

Acts 2:36-38 ( KJV ) 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
These same people who just a little while ago were crying out for Christ to be crucified were now cut to the heart and asked Peter what they needed to do to be saved. (Jew)

So, this is why it is so important to read and quote the Scriptures "IN" context. This post has take quite a bit of time about 3 hours, and there is not enough time to do this for every post. So I say context, please.

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 01:41 AM
I can't believe that you would come to the conclusion that this verse is an offer of salvation if you had not come with a preconcieved determination to find any passage of Scripture to fit your doctrine of free will. You'll have to do better than this. But let me spare you the time and trouble...there is not a single verse in Scripture that makes salvation an offer. Again and again we find salvation is ALWAYS given, not offered, as though it could be accepted or rejected.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life;
Joh 17:2 ...that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Read the verse carefully, it is NOT an offer it is a command, or a plea. And to whom is Paul giving this command or plea? ...it's not unbelievers! READ THE CONTEXT!

It is God who reconciles men to Himself by Jesus Christ. Clearly God is NOT telling spiritually dead sinners to reconcile themselves to Him, after telling us that it is He Who reconciles men through Christ.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

The NT teaches that God restores us to Himself by "putting us in right relations with Himself."

Again, we read, it is God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. After saying twice that God reconciles man to Himself, it is foolish to say this passage tells us that God is telling spiritually dead men to reconcile themselves to God through their free will.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Vs 20..."Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ." In view of what God through Christ has done for sinners, Paul takes most seriously the divine charge to preach and teach the good news of reconciliation. God charges them and us to be faithful preachers of God's message of redemption, of His redeeming love.

Through the gospel message God will give spiritually dead sinners ears to hear, and His gift of faith to believe, that they might have eternal life in Christ. "Be reconciled to God" is a command to do something once for all. The plea, through the message of the gospel goes unto all men. On the basis of Christ's redeeming work, God entreats all people everywhere to listen obediently to His Word of reconciliation.

It is much like the command for all men everywhere to repent and believe. Who will be reconciled, who will believe? The one given ears to hear, and faith to believe through the power of the gospel (Word) and the Holy Spirit. It makes no sense to tell spiritually dead men to be reconciled to God, but it makes perfect sense to tell those who have been given eternal life in Christ to be reconciled to God. Whenever believers fall into sin and seek forgiveness, they have assurance they can turn to Him and find that God's hand remains extended to them always.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

You don't argue from Scripture, you argue from your presuppositions, Please show me where there is anything in Scripture about anyone being Spiritually dead.

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 02:05 AM
I can't believe that you would come to the conclusion that this verse is an offer of salvation if you had not come with a preconcieved determination to find any passage of Scripture to fit your doctrine of free will. You'll have to do better than this. But let me spare you the time and trouble...there is not a single verse in Scripture that makes salvation an offer. Again and again we find salvation is ALWAYS given, not offered, as though it could be accepted or rejected.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life;
Joh 17:2 ...that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Read the verse carefully, it is NOT an offer it is a command, or a plea. And to whom is Paul giving this command or plea? ...it's not unbelievers! READ THE CONTEXT!

It is God who reconciles men to Himself by Jesus Christ. Clearly God is NOT telling spiritually dead sinners to reconcile themselves to Him, after telling us that it is He Who reconciles men through Christ.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

The NT teaches that God restores us to Himself by "putting us in right relations with Himself."

Again, we read, it is God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. After saying twice that God reconciles man to Himself, it is foolish to say this passage tells us that God is telling spiritually dead men to reconcile themselves to God through their free will.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Vs 20..."Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ." In view of what God through Christ has done for sinners, Paul takes most seriously the divine charge to preach and teach the good news of reconciliation. God charges them and us to be faithful preachers of God's message of redemption, of His redeeming love.

Through the gospel message God will give spiritually dead sinners ears to hear, and His gift of faith to believe, that they might have eternal life in Christ. "Be reconciled to God" is a command to do something once for all. The plea, through the message of the gospel goes unto all men. On the basis of Christ's redeeming work, God entreats all people everywhere to listen obediently to His Word of reconciliation.

It is much like the command for all men everywhere to repent and believe. Who will be reconciled, who will believe? The one given ears to hear, and faith to believe through the power of the gospel (Word) and the Holy Spirit. It makes no sense to tell spiritually dead men to be reconciled to God, but it makes perfect sense to tell those who have been given eternal life in Christ to be reconciled to God. Whenever believers fall into sin and seek forgiveness, they have assurance they can turn to Him and find that God's hand remains extended to them always.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

You say read Scripture in context? My friend, you are not. Look at the post you wrote. Paul says God was in the world reconciling hte world to himself, how? through Christ. How? through the gospel. Paul says that ministry of Reconciliation has not been given to them, the apostles. IT IS NOW THE APOSTLES WHO ARE RECONCILING THE WORLD TO GOD. How by preaching the gospel.

Notice that Jesus is the only one who says, he who has an ear to hear, why? Because during His ministry on earth no one could come to Him unless they were drawn by the Father. However, Jesus ministry on earth was "TO THE JEWS"

Matthew 10:5-7 ( KJV ) 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Matthew 15:24 ( KJV ) 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Salvation came to the gentiles when Peter went to Cornelius. Before that it was to the Jews. That is why Jesus says he who has an ear, because no one of the Jews could come unless God drew them. If you read the long post to Yuckerboy it is explained there in more detail. None of the apostles says he who has an ear, why? because Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself.

John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 02:21 AM
You can't seperate Jesus and God. Everyone knows that Jesus is God and God is Jesus. We shouldn't even try. If there was a secular sentence that was put together exactly like this one was, you wouldn't say that. You would say that "his faith" could refer to either. The problem is that you want it to point to Abraham. I want it to point to "him that justifieth the ungodly". Who's right? If this was the only scripture in the whole bible then either of us could be right. There would be nothing else to compare it to. But fortunately we have many, many scriptures in the bible. And when compared with the ones that talk about this, It can only be referring to Jesus/God's faith.

We have to look at more than just one scripture of course. When we look and see faith is a work and that our righteousness are as filthy rags and "faith of Christ" statements then we know what the answer must be. "His faith" MUST refer to Jesus.

First of all, they are not the same Jesus and the Father are not hte same person, Jesus is God (divine), the Father is God (divine) but they are not the same person.

Secondly, it doesn't matter what anyone wants it to point to, what matters is the language structure that tells us what it points to.

Where is there anything in Scripture that say Jesus or God need or have faith?

I thought faith was a gift?

Where in Scripture does it say our righteousness's are as filthy rags?

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 02:50 AM
Right. But we will inherit the kingdom of the Father (1 Cor 15:50-54, Matt 25:34, Matt 13:43) while unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire (Matt 13:42, Matt 13:50, Matt 25:41, Rev 20:15).

That's one way of putting it. The point of that understanding is everyone will experience God in different ways. The "lake of fire" is perceived as that "sea of glass" before the throne and the shekinah glory in Revelation. Just as Daniel and his friends rejoiced in the fiery furnace, so will the righteous before God, a God who is as a consuming fire, in that His holiness prevents any evil to come near Him. (notice the final chapter of Revelation where the evil ones are still outside the city) So it will be in how we experience God. We'll be within or without.

The final judgment includes a judgment of works.
As long as there are righteous persons on earth God will delay the final judgment. God will decide as He did with Sodom and Gomorrah.

That may be more info than you wanted, but this is what I believe.

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 02:59 AM
Teke, I posted this earlier, but will repost to make it easy.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

Let's look at the word "draw"

The Greek word used here is helko. Helko is used throughout the Bible. Drawing a sword in John 18:10. Did the sword choose to be drawn? Drawing a fishing net up in John 21:6. Did the net choose to be drawn up? Acts 16:19 says Paul and Silas were caught and drawn into the marketplace. Here, we find that draw can also mean drag. Acts 21:30 has Paul being dragged out of the temple. Do you think he chose to leave willingly?

It is the Father that draws (drags) you to Christ and this is because no one seeks Him. No one is righteous. If man was left to choose God on his own, no one would choose God.

:wasup:
I posted on scripture which explains what drawn to God means. You've just given examples of verses that use the word "helko". I asked you for examples of God dragging someone to Him (with or without the Greek word is OK).

RogerW
Nov 18th 2008, 04:21 AM
Thank you Yukerboy,

This is exactly what I am talking about. Instead of prooftexting, why don't you put all of these verses in the context that they were written in and explain them?? I will,

Who is Paul speaking of here? The elect. Who are they? Just before this we see Paul saying,

Romans 8:29-30 ( KJV ) 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This gives a description of the elect, these are the ones chosen by God. What does it say concerning these? Those who God foreknew, the Greek word here means "knew before," before what? Before the time that Paul is writing. The people God predetermined would be conformed to the image of His Son, these people God called, He justified, and He glorified. The first thing to notice is that all of the verbs are past tense. All of these things happened prior to Paul writing this epistle to the Romans. These are completed acts of God. But who are these people? Paul says they were called, who are the called? Look at verse 28,

Romans 8:28 ( KJV ) 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

The called, are those that love God. Th Greek word used for called also means invited. So, the elect are those who love God. Were they predestined to love God ?

Since you went to so much trouble to post your preconcieved free will commentary on all these passages of Scripture, it is only fair that we attempt to show you why we should never come to Scripture to prove our doctrine. We can start here.

You almost have "foreknow" right, but not quite. It means a little more than people God knew before Paul wrote his epistle. You are correct that God does speak of His elect in the past tense. He does this because He knows His elect and He wrote their names in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Since Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, it stands to reason that God sees His predestined elect as though they have already been called, justified and glorified.

"Foreknow" means to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:--foreknow (ordain), know (before). From the foundation of the world God knows His people. But to the unbelievers Christ says, "I never knew you."

Ps 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You ask if those who love God were predestined to love God? A little more of the context helps to answer your question. You might want to look especially at vs 29 which tells us those He foreknew are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. Can we be conformed to the image of Christ without being predestined to love God? I don't think so! Especially when you consider we are being led by the Spirit of God, having received the Spirit of adoption as sons of God, crying Abba Father and patiently awaiting the redemption of our incorruptible, immortal bodies.

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Ro 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Ro 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

It's late, so the other verses will have to wait, but I've no doubt that you have read your preconcieved free will doctrine into the text, rather than allowing the text to be its own interpreter.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 04:59 AM
RogerW---Since you went to so much trouble to post your preconcieved free will commentary on all these passages of Scripture, it is only fair that we attempt to show you why we should never come to Scripture to prove our doctrine. We can start here.

You almost have "foreknow" right, but not quite. It means a little more than people God knew before Paul wrote his epistle. You are correct that God does speak of His elect in the past tense. He does this because He knows His elect and He wrote their names in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Since Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, it stands to reason that God sees His predestined elect as though they have already been called, justified and glorified.


Speculation, no Scripture.

It stands to reason? So, you know what God thinks?

Roger, look at your quote of Rev 13:8, it is the lamb that was slain that is from the foundation of the world. Not the names written in it


"Foreknow" means to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:--foreknow (ordain), know (before). From the foundation of the world God knows His people. But to the unbelievers Christ says, "I never knew you."

There is nothing in the passage or the word Proginosko, that requires or has anything to do with "from the foundation of the world, this is simply interjection.


Acts 26:4-5 ( KJV ) 4My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; 5Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Here Paul says the Jews which knew me from the beginning. The word knew is the same proginosko that is used in Romans 8:29. Surely you will not contend that the Jews knew Paul from the beginning of the world. No, it simply means to knew before.



Roger---You ask if those who love God were predestined to love God? A little more of the context helps to answer your question. You might want to look especially at vs 29 which tells us those He foreknew are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. Can we be conformed to the image of Christ without being predestined to love God? I don't think so! Especially when you consider we are being led by the Spirit of God, having received the Spirit of adoption as sons of God, crying Abba Father and patiently awaiting the redemption of our incorruptible, immortal bodies.

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Ro 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Ro 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


How do any of these Scriptures have anything to do with the ability to love God. These Scriptures speak of people who "already" love God.

The real crux of the matter is your statment below.


Roger---Can we be conformed to the image of Christ without being predestined to love God? I don't think so!


You don't think so, not one of the Scriptures you posted even remotely hinted that a person must be predestined to love God.



Roger---Can we be conformed to the image of Christ without being predestined to love God? I don't think so!

Sure we can, God has predetermined that those who love Him, will be conformed to the image of His Son, however he has not predetermined who will love Him.


Roger---It's late, so the other verses will have to wait, but I've no doubt that you have read your preconcieved free will doctrine into the text, rather than allowing the text to be its own interpreter.

Roger, you needn't bother. I don't need opinion.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 04:34 PM
We established in the previous verse that those of the church at Thessalonica were those who love God, therefore they are of the elect. However let us continue to make the point.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-15 ( KJV ) 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

You see they were not damned because they were not chosen, they were damned because they would not accept the love of the truth, the truth that would save them. Those of the church in Thessalonica did receive the truth and therefore are of the elect of God.

Now, let's deal with the word received. The Greek word for received is in the middle voice which means that the action is being performed on them by themselves.

The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament
G1209. δέχομαι dechomai; fut. dexomai, perf. dedegmai (Acts 8:14 with mid. meaning, has received to herself), mid. deponent. To accept an offer deliberately and readily. To take to oneself what is presented or brought by another, to receive. Trans.: (I) Of things: (A) To take, receive, receive into one’s hands (Luke 2:28 implying from his parents; Luke 16:6, 7, "take thy bill" implying back from me; Luke 22:17, "when he received the cup from an attendant" [a.t.]; Eph. 6:17, "and take the helmet of salvation"; Sept.: 2 Chr. 29:16, 22). (B) Generally to receive, accept, e.g., letters (Acts 22:5; 28:21); the grace or the collection (2 Cor. 8:4); whatever was sent from the Philippians (Phil. 4:18). See Sept.: Gen. 33:10; Ex. 29:25; 32:4.

Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries
G1209 δέχομαι dechomai dekh'-om-ahee Middle voice of a primary verb; to receive (in various applications, literally or figuratively):—accept, receive, take. Compare G2983. I've made this same point several times as well. Those who believe that people have no choice in the matter are not willing to accept what is taught in that passage. It isn't that people are not able to accept the truth. Clearly, that passage implies that they chose to not accept the truth but if they had accepted it they would have been saved. It certainly doesn't even hint at the false idea that they had no ability to accept the truth.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 04:42 PM
Roger,

You don't argue from Scripture, you argue from your presuppositions, Please show me where there is anything in Scripture about anyone being Spiritually dead.I hate to agree with Roger (:D), but what else does being dead in our trespasses and sins mean? Now, being spiritually dead is not the same as being physically dead. People try to make that analogy but scripture does not. We were spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins before we were made spiritually alive (born of the Spirit). That is what it talks about in Ephesians 2. But don't get caught up in semantics. Being spiritually dead does not mean one is incapable of making moral decisions. People like Roger would try to tell you that, but scripture doesn't teach that.

Scripture indicates that we receive the Spirit AFTER we repent and put our faith and trust in Christ and not before (Acts 2:38, Eph 1:12-13). This shows that we are still not yet spiritually alive when we make the decision to repent and put our faith and trust in Christ as our Lord and Savior. Some will try to say that people must be regenerated (born again) and made spiritually alive before we can repent and believe in Christ, but scripture doesn't teach that anywhere.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 04:50 PM
Since you went to so much trouble to post your preconcieved free will commentary on all these passages of Scripture, it is only fair that we attempt to show you why we should never come to Scripture to prove our doctrine. We can start here.

You almost have "foreknow" right, but not quite. It means a little more than people God knew before Paul wrote his epistle. You are correct that God does speak of His elect in the past tense. He does this because He knows His elect and He wrote their names in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Since Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, it stands to reason that God sees His predestined elect as though they have already been called, justified and glorified.

"Foreknow" means to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:--foreknow (ordain), know (before). From the foundation of the world God knows His people. But to the unbelievers Christ says, "I never knew you."

Ps 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You ask if those who love God were predestined to love God? A little more of the context helps to answer your question. You might want to look especially at vs 29 which tells us those He foreknew are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. Can we be conformed to the image of Christ without being predestined to love God? I don't think so! Especially when you consider we are being led by the Spirit of God, having received the Spirit of adoption as sons of God, crying Abba Father and patiently awaiting the redemption of our incorruptible, immortal bodies.

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Ro 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Ro 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

It's late, so the other verses will have to wait, but I've no doubt that you have read your preconcieved free will doctrine into the text, rather than allowing the text to be its own interpreter.

Many Blessings,
RWBeing conformed to the image of Christ is something that begins to occur AFTER we have been born again and saved. Repentance and faith come BEFORE that. Once we are saved the Spirit begins to mold us into the people God wants us to be, which is to be more and more like Christ. That is what God predestines His people to become, like Christ. That does not mean God predestined people to believe in Christ in the first place. He knew beforehand who would believe in Christ and it is those who He knew would believe in Christ that He predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 05:01 PM
Where in Scripture does it say our righteousness's are as filthy rags?Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 05:13 PM
I hate to agree with Roger (:D), but what else does being dead in our trespasses and sins mean?

It means you were useless to God in that state of being, as God is God of the living and not the dead . Ephesians 2 is my favorite scriptures on transfiguration by grace. :)

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 05:19 PM
I've made this same point several times as well. Those who believe that people have no choice in the matter are not willing to accept what is taught in that passage. It isn't that people are not able to accept the truth. Clearly, that passages implies that they chose to not accept the truth but if they had accepted it they would have been saved. It certainly doesn't even hint at the false idea that they had no ability to accept the truth.

You are correct, the problem is that the Calvinist doctrine is built on a foundation of Total Depravity, all of the other tenets are built upon this foundation, therefore if this doctrine fails the entire doctrine of Calvinism fails. That is the reason that Calvinists "will not" ever admit that we have a choice.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 05:20 PM
That's one way of putting it. The point of that understanding is everyone will experience God in different ways. The "lake of fire" is perceived as that "sea of glass" before the throne and the shekinah glory in Revelation.Where do you get that from?


Just as Daniel and his friends rejoiced in the fiery furnace, so will the righteous before God, a God who is as a consuming fire, in that His holiness prevents any evil to come near Him. (notice the final chapter of Revelation where the evil ones are still outside the city) So it will be in how we experience God. We'll be within or without. You speak in such a mystical way that I can barely follow your thought process. Can you try to put what you're saying in more straightforward terms? The "evil ones" will be in the lake of fire. It's not as if they will be outside the city looking in. They will be completely separated from God and the new Jerusalem.


The final judgment includes a judgment of works.
As long as there are righteous persons on earth God will delay the final judgment. God will decide as He did with Sodom and Gomorrah.

That may be more info than you wanted, but this is what I believe.Once again, I'm not really sure what you mean here. If God delayed the final judgment until there were no longer any righteous persons (assume you mean believers) on earth then it seems that day would never come.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 05:23 PM
It means you were useless to God in that state of being, as God is God of the living and not the dead . Ephesians 2 is my favorite scriptures on transfiguration by grace. :)Yes, but it doesn't mean I was not able to recognize my lost sinful state and my need for a Savior.

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 05:28 PM
Yes, but it doesn't mean I was not able to recognize my lost sinful state and my need for a Savior.

Bet that thought never crossed your mind until the Son was revealed to you. I know it didn't cross my mind. I just tried to be a good person and left the rest up to God. Didn't occur to me that my being a good person (self righteousness) was worthless until God revealed the Son to me. That threw me right out of my complacency. :rolleyes:

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 05:35 PM
I hate to agree with Roger (:D), but what else does being dead in our trespasses and sins mean? Now, being spiritually dead is not the same as being physically dead. People try to make that analogy but scripture does not. We were spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins before we were made spiritually alive (born of the Spirit). That is what it talks about in Ephesians 2. But don't get caught up in semantics. Being spiritually dead does not mean one is incapable of making moral decisions. People like Roger would try to tell you that, but scripture doesn't teach that.

Scripture indicates that we receive the Spirit AFTER we repent and put our faith and trust in Christ and not before (Acts 2:38, Eph 1:12-13). This shows that we are still not yet spiritually alive when we make the decision to repent and put our faith and trust in Christ as our Lord and Savior. Some will try to say that people must be regenerated (born again) and made spiritually alive before we can repent and believe in Christ, but scripture doesn't teach that anywhere.

John,

I agree with what you said, except for the Spiritually dead part, here's why. There is not a single verse of Scripture that says anyone is spiritually dead. In Ephesians to where Paul speaks of being dead in trespasses and sins, he is using a metaphor, he does this frequently. Consider what he says in Romans 7,


Romans 7:8-13 ( KJV ) 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Paul's says he was alive with out the law once, then the command came and he died. Clearly this is a metaphor, we wouldn't think Paul was spiritual alive and then spiritually dead when the law came and then spiritually alive when He got saved. I believe it is the same in Ephesians 2, Paul is using a metaphor to say that the Ephesians could do nothing about their lost condition, only Christ cold save them.

Consider also what Jesus said, He said you must be born again. We were born physically an that is corrupted, so we must be born again, this time through the one who is incorruptible. Jesus said we must "born Spiritually", He did not say we must be "resurrected spiritually", the dead must be resurrected not born.

Also consider Jesus parable of the Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man was not saved, yet he was not spiritually dead, as a matter of fact, he asked Abraham to send someone to his brothers, so that they did not end up were he was.

Anyway, that is why I don't buy into the idea that anyone is spiritually dead.

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 05:40 PM
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Hi John,

You have to read the whole thing. It was Isaiah, who was giving a prayer of penitence for "Israel". He was pleading to God on behalf of Israel because of the sins they had committed, He included himself because they were his people, when he says all of "OUR" righteousness's, he is speaking of the nation Israel, not every person who ever lives, not you and me.

RogerW
Nov 18th 2008, 05:44 PM
Speculation, no Scripture.

It stands to reason? So, you know what God thinks?

I know what Scripture teaches. But I understand the difficulty this poses for you. Because if names are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, then clearly God has not only predestined who is written there, but also assures us that all who are written there will be saved. Why? Because they are His predestined elect from the foundation of the world, and Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundaiton of the world.



Roger, look at your quote of Rev 13:8, it is the lamb that was slain that is from the foundation of the world. Not the names written in it

Perhaps you have no knowledge of names being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, so this comes as a surprise to you. This is a doctrine mostly ignored by those of free will. Not only is Christ the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, but all who are among His elect have also been written in His book of life.

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



There is nothing in the passage or the word Proginosko, that requires or has anything to do with "from the foundation of the world, this is simply interjection.

Acts 26:4-5 ( KJV ) 4My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; 5Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Here Paul says the Jews which knew me from the beginning. The word knew is the same proginosko that is used in Romans 8:29. Surely you will not contend that the Jews knew Paul from the beginning of the world. No, it simply means to knew before.

I don't have to contend that the Jews knew Paul from the beginning of the world. It is clearly written in the passage you provide that they knew him from his youth. So what does this CLEAR passage of Scripture tell us? That the Jews are as God, knowing Paul even before he was born? No, the passage tells us that the Jews knew Paul beforehand, that is they knew what manner of life Paul has lived from his youth. In other words they are not only now becoming aquainted with who Paul is. They have known him from the beginning, beforehand, from his youth.

According to Scripture when does God know Paul and His chosen ones?

Ac 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Ga 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

When are we written in His book? Even before we were created in the womb, we were made, and not hidden, but written in His book.

Ps 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Ps 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
Ps 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Ps 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.



How do any of these Scriptures have anything to do with the ability to love God. These Scriptures speak of people who "already" love God.

When did God first love us? Would it not be even before we were created, and when we were written in His book? I never said we love Him before salvation, but unless He first loves us, and then enables us to love Him we cannot love Him. Since a fruit of the Spirit is love, we cannot love as He loves without the Spirit.

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,



You don't think so, not one of the Scriptures you posted even remotely hinted that a person must be predestined to love God.

I suggest you look again!

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 05:55 PM
Bet that thought never crossed your mind until the Son was revealed to you.Sure it did. I've always had a conscience just like all people do. You'd be amazed at what even the most wicked person might think about at times. But many people love earthly pleasures too much to let that kind of thinking dwell for very long in their hearts and minds.


I know it didn't cross my mind. I just tried to be a good person and left the rest up to God. Didn't occur to me that my being a good person (self righteousness) was worthless until God revealed the Son to me. That threw me right out of my complacency. :rolleyes:How exactly did God reveal the Son to you? At that point that the Son was revealed to you do you believe you then had no choice but to put your faith and trust in Him as your Lord and Savior?

Friend of I AM
Nov 18th 2008, 05:57 PM
You are correct, the problem is that the Calvinist doctrine is built on a foundation of Total Depravity, all of the other tenets are built upon this foundation, therefore if this doctrine fails the entire doctrine of Calvinism fails. That is the reason that Calvinists "will not" ever admit that we have a choice.

Well I grew up at a Calvinist Church, although I don't consider myself one. I think many will indeed admit choice regarding salvation. I just don't think they will exert the fact that God is not at any point part of the salvific process. To state that man is entirely responsable for his own salvation is as incorrect as stating that man has no ability to influence or assist in the process of his salvation.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 05:59 PM
John,

I agree with what you said, except for the Spiritually dead part, here's why. There is not a single verse of Scripture that says anyone is spiritually dead. In Ephesians to where Paul speaks of being dead in trespasses and sins, he is using a metaphor, he does this frequently. Consider what he says in Romans 7,


Romans 7:8-13 ( KJV ) 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Paul's says he was alive with out the law once, then the command came and he died. Clearly this is a metaphor, we wouldn't think Paul was spiritual alive and then spiritually dead when the law came and then spiritually alive when He got saved. I believe it is the same in Ephesians 2, Paul is using a metaphor to say that the Ephesians could do nothing about their lost condition, only Christ cold save them.

Consider also what Jesus said, He said you must be born again. We were born physically an that is corrupted, so we must be born again, this time through the one who is incorruptible. Jesus said we must "born Spiritually", He did not say we must be "resurrected spiritually", the dead must be resurrected not born.

Also consider Jesus parable of the Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man was not saved, yet he was not spiritually dead, as a matter of fact, he asked Abraham to send someone to his brothers, so that they did not end up were he was.

Anyway, that is why I don't buy into the idea that anyone is spiritually dead.I'm not going to waste my time on semantics. If you don't want to call being dead in trespasses and sins being spiritually dead then go ahead. But the fact is that we are made spiritually alive when we're born again. If we're not truly spiritually alive until we're born of the Spirit then what are we before that? IMO, spiritually dead.

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 06:00 PM
Hey John,

Where do you get that from?

Revelation 15:2, the liturgy of preparation. (Revelation is a liturgical book in scripture) "Sea of glass" (Rev. 4:6), "mingled with fire" (see Matt. 3:11)

See the sea of glass in Rev. 4:6. The "sea of glass, like crystal" (see Ezek. 1:22-26) surrounding God's throne has a double significance. 1) God is approached by fallen men only through the waters of death which produce life. As Israel journeyed through the Red Sea as if on hard ground, so Christians pass through the waters of baptism, entering into Christ's death and Resurrection. If the sea is not of glass (that is, hard as solid ground), there is death, not new life. 2) God is vast and overpowering, as a sea of light would be. The hosts of angels surround Him (Dan. 7:10) as a sea of purity.

See the reasoning of scripture....


You speak in such a mystical way that I can barely follow your thought process. Can you try to put what you're saying in more straightforward terms? The "evil ones" will be in the lake of fire. It's not as if they will be outside the city looking in. They will be completely separated from God and the new Jerusalem.

Forgive me if I sound mystical when speaking of things pertaining to God. Personally, I take that as a compliment. But forgive me if I'm causing you confusion on the matter.God is mystical (meaning spiritual, since He is The Spirit) IMHO>
I didn't say they weren't in the "lake of fire". (see 2 above)
See Revelation 22:14,15. You get into the city through the "gate".


Once again, I'm not really sure what you mean here. If God delayed the final judgment until there were no longer any righteous persons (assume you mean believers) on earth then it seems that day would never come.

Actually it would seem, that particular day will come and there will only be "two" witnesses on earth before God. The two killed in Revelation.
I'm reasoning from scripture on this. With Sodom and Gomorrah Abraham reasoned with God to save the cities if there were a certain number of righteous persons there (Gen. 18:23), and God agreed in reasoning with him. So I'm just following father Abraham's example.:saint:

Peace be with and your spirit,
Eve

RogerW
Nov 18th 2008, 06:03 PM
Being conformed to the image of Christ is something that begins to occur AFTER we have been born again and saved. Repentance and faith come BEFORE that. Once we are saved the Spirit begins to mold us into the people God wants us to be, which is to be more and more like Christ. That is what God predestines His people to become, like Christ. That does not mean God predestined people to believe in Christ in the first place. He knew beforehand who would believe in Christ and it is those who He knew would believe in Christ that He predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Yes, but we are predestined to be conformed to His image. If we have been predestined to be conformed to His image, how can we not also be predestined to believe? The passage says "we are conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." How can we be among His many brothers unless we believe? To say we are predestined to be comformed to the image of the Son, to be made His brother, then argue we are not predestined to believe is simply ignoring the plain text.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 06:03 PM
Hi John,

You have to read the whole thing. It was Isaiah, who was giving a prayer of penitence for "Israel". He was pleading to God on behalf of Israel because of the sins they had committed, He included himself because they were his people, when he says all of "OUR" righteousness's, he is speaking of the nation Israel, not every person who ever lives, not you and me.Are you suggesting that people are able to be righteous in their own power? What about the scriptures that say "no one is good" and "all have sinned"? If we can have our own righteousness, then please explain to me how that can be the case.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 06:05 PM
Yes, but we are predestined to be conformed to His image. If we have been predestined to be conformed to His image, how can we not also be predestined to believe?Why does the one necessitate the other. Why can't it be that He predestined those who He knew would believe?


The passage says "we are conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." How can we be among His many brothers unless we believe? To say we are predestined to be comformed to the image of the Son, to be made His brother, then argue we are not predestined to believe is simply ignoring the plain text.No, it is not. If you're going to make a claim like that you might want to try backing it up with clear scripture instead of just giving your opinion and insisting that it's fact.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 06:13 PM
Hey John,

Revelation 15:2, the liturgy of preparation. (Revelation is a liturgical book in scripture) "Sea of glass" (Rev. 4:6), "mingled with fire" (see Matt. 3:11)

See the sea of glass in Rev. 4:6. The "sea of glass, like crystal" (see Ezek. 1:22-26) surrounding God's throne has a double significance. 1) God is approached by fallen men only through the waters of death which produce life. As Israel journeyed through the Red Sea as if on hard ground, so Christians pass through the waters of baptism, entering into Christ's death and Resurrection. If the sea is not of glass (that is, hard as solid ground), there is death, not new life. 2) God is vast and overpowering, as a sea of light would be. The hosts of angels surround Him (Dan. 7:10) as a sea of purity.

See the reasoning of scripture....Is that all you have for evidence that the lake of fire is the same entity as the sea of glass? I still don't see how you come to that conclusion.


Forgive me if I sound mystical when speaking of things pertaining to God. Personally, I take that as a compliment.Didn't you say you were once part of a cult or something similar? Please don't be offended, but it seems that whatever it was still has some influence on your way of thinking.


But forgive me if I'm causing you confusion on the matter. God is mystical (meaning spiritual, since He is The Spirit) IMHO>
I didn't say they weren't in the "lake of fire". (see 2 above)
See Revelation 22:14,15. You get into the city through the "gate".And the only ones allowed entry are those whose names are in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Actually it would seem, that particular day will come and there will only be "two" witnesses on earth before God. The two killed in Revelation.
I'm reasoning from scripture on this. With Sodom and Gomorrah Abraham reasoned with God to save the cities if there were a certain number of righteous persons there (Gen. 18:23), and God agreed in reasoning with him. So I'm just following father Abraham's example.:saint:I don't agree with your interpretation of the two witnesses and I have a feeling I don't agree much with your interpretation of end times doctrine at all.

Eric

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 06:18 PM
To state that man is entirely responsable for his own salvation is as incorrect as stating that man has no ability to influence or assist in the process of his salvation.I agree wholeheartedly with that.

RogerW
Nov 18th 2008, 06:23 PM
Roger,

You say read Scripture in context? My friend, you are not. Look at the post you wrote. Paul says God was in the world reconciling hte world to himself, how? through Christ. How? through the gospel. Paul says that ministry of Reconciliation has not been given to them, the apostles. IT IS NOW THE APOSTLES WHO ARE RECONCILING THE WORLD TO GOD. How by preaching the gospel.

Notice that Jesus is the only one who says, he who has an ear to hear, why? Because during His ministry on earth no one could come to Him unless they were drawn by the Father. However, Jesus ministry on earth was "TO THE JEWS"

Matthew 10:5-7 ( KJV ) 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 15:24 ( KJV ) 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Salvation came to the gentiles when Peter went to Cornelius. Before that it was to the Jews. That is why Jesus says he who has an ear, because no one of the Jews could come unless God drew them. If you read the long post to Yuckerboy it is explained there in more detail. None of the apostles says he who has an ear, why? because Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself.

John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

How many different plans of salvation will you have us believe? You want us to believe that God saves the Jews through Christ in one manner, but then changes the way He saves Gentiles after the cross?

Perhaps the apostles never say "he who has an ear", but they certainly do have an awful lot to say about hearing. Who are these "other sheep" that Christ must bring, who shall "hear My voice", and be of one fold with one Shepherd among the sheep from the nation?

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Seems that whoever believes must first "hear" His voice. How do they hear? Supernaturally, through the power of the gospel and Holy Spirit.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 18th 2008, 06:34 PM
You are correct, the problem is that the Calvinist doctrine is built on a foundation of Total Depravity, all of the other tenets are built upon this foundation, therefore if this doctrine fails the entire doctrine of Calvinism fails. That is the reason that Calvinists "will not" ever admit that we have a choice.

I can't argue for or against Calvinism, but Scripture clearly shows us the choices we make are freely made. It is not a matter of whether our choices are freely made or not, but who is our master when making these free choices? When we are in bondage to satan, sin and death the only choices we freely make are against the Lord. When we have been delivered from the bondage to satan, sin and death the only choices we freely make are for the Lord. When in unrighteousness we are in the flesh, and while in the flesh we can do nothing good, holy or righteous. After being made righteous, we now how the Spirit of God Who guides us unto all truth, love, holiness and righteousness.

No problem with free choices, simply a problem with who is guiding us in making those choices.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 06:53 PM
Is that all you have for evidence that the lake of fire is the same entity as the sea of glass? I still don't see how you come to that conclusion.

I'm not coming to any conclusion that there is any other fire in heaven beside that of God.


Didn't you say you were once part of a cult or something similar? Please don't be offended, but it seems that whatever it was still has some influence on your way of thinking.

:o I certainly never said I came from any cult. I am a Christian of the ancient faith the Lord God called me to. Eastern Orthodox may be mystical, but their certainly not a cult (I assume you mean this in a derogatory manner). They are the same ancient teachings of Jesus and the Apostles with no new flavor added. Your at liberty to accept them or not.


And the only ones allowed entry are those whose names are in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Those written there enter in through one of the twelve gates.

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


I don't agree with your interpretation of the two witnesses and I have a feeling I don't agree much with your interpretation of end times doctrine at all.

Eric

That's cool. My understanding isn't the popular Protestant dispensational one.

Peace be with you Eric,
Eve

RogerW
Nov 18th 2008, 07:06 PM
Why does the one necessitate the other. Why can't it be that He predestined those who He knew would believe?

Because Eric, that would make man sovereign in salvation. If God predestines those whom He knows will believe, then God is dependent upon fallen man to save a people for Himself. Salvation would not be all of grace, but because God knew some would believe. Don't you see how that makes salvation man's doing, and not of grace? Why do only some men, of their own will believe and the rest don't? Does it have anything to do with the condition of fallen men?



No, it is not. If you're going to make a claim like that you might want to try backing it up with clear scripture instead of just giving your opinion and insisting that it's fact.

Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 07:07 PM
Sure it did. I've always had a conscience just like all people do. You'd be amazed at what even the most wicked person might think about at times. But many people love earthly pleasures too much to let that kind of thinking dwell for very long in their hearts and minds.

Then I guess you had the benefit of someone preaching to you. I didn't.


How exactly did God reveal the Son to you? At that point that the Son was revealed to you do you believe you then had no choice but to put your faith and trust in Him as your Lord and Savior?

No I don't believe I had no choice. My experience was more like falling in love. Both sad and joyful.
I didn't choose or call Him, He chose and called me.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 07:10 PM
I'm not coming to any conclusion that there is any other fire in heaven beside that of God.Okay, but do you believe the lake of fire is a place of torment and punishment?


:o I certainly never said I came from any cult. I am a Christian of the ancient faith the Lord God called me to. Eastern Orthodox may be mystical, but their certainly not a cult (I assume you mean this in a derogatory manner). They are the same ancient teachings of Jesus and the Apostles with no new flavor added. Your at liberty to accept them or not.Notice that I asked a question and didn't accuse you. I wasn't sure if it was you or someone else that had said that. I'm not trying to say that the Eastern Orthodox Church is a cult. Sorry if I came across that way. I truly couldn't remember what you had said about your background and who it was that said they used to be in a cult. That's why I asked instead of just assuming that it was you. Someone recently said that in one of these threads but my memory is obviously fuzzy on that.


Those written there enter in through one of the twelve gates.

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.That's fine. My point was just to show that those who are in the lake of fire are not allowed entry and never will be, but I think you probably don't agree with that. ;)

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 07:19 PM
Then I guess you had the benefit of someone preaching to you. I didn't.I didn't have the benefit of anyone preaching to me clearly. I'm not sure if I ever heard anyone preach the need to repent and surrender our lives to Christ before I was saved, but I believe it was revealed to me that is what God expects us to do.


No I don't believe I had no choice. My experience was more like falling in love. Both sad and joyful.
I didn't choose or call Him, He chose and called me.This is where we disagree. It is possible to be called but not to be chosen. Jesus said that "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt 20:16, Matt 22:14). If you read the parable of Matthew 22:1-14 you can see that people were invited to the wedding but some were not willing to come and refused. It isn't as though they didn't have the choice or else why would they have even been invited?

That parable is about the offer of salvation that many willingly refuse to accept. When someone is called they are responsible to repent and put their faith and trust in Christ. Did you repent and believe when you felt called? That was my experience and may have been yours but that is not the experience of everyone who is called. It is possible for someone to choose to not answer the call by refusing to accept the gospel of Christ and the offer of eternal life through faith in Christ.

Isaiah 66
2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 07:50 PM
Okay, but do you believe the lake of fire is a place of torment and punishment?

Yes, by your understanding.
My understanding is that there is no "place" in heaven apart from God. When a person "can't stand the heat" as they say, they will be in a state of torment and/or punishment.



That's fine. My point was just to show that those who are in the lake of fire are not allowed entry and never will be, but I think you probably don't agree with that. ;)

They are not allowed entry. Never is a long time, so I don't know about that. Ezekiel says some things pertaining to those (the "zadok"=righteous one) close to the Lord who can come out to minister to only certain persons, those being family members. A dispensational view would see this in an earthly manner. I don't take sides on the issue. It's up to God.

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 08:01 PM
This is where we disagree. It is possible to be called but not to be chosen. Jesus said that "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt 20:16, Matt 22:14). If you read the parable of Matthew 22:1-14 you can see that people were invited to the wedding but some were not willing to come and refused. It isn't as though they didn't have the choice or else why would they have even been invited?

That parable is about the offer of salvation that many willingly refuse to accept. When someone is called they are responsible to repent and put their faith and trust in Christ. Did you repent and believe when you felt called? That was my experience and may have been yours but that is not the experience of everyone who is called. It is possible for someone to choose to not answer the call by refusing to accept the gospel of Christ and the offer of eternal life through faith in Christ.



I don't disagree with that. He could've been calling me all along, I just didn't hear any audible voice. Like I said, I thought being a good person was enough. Apparently God wanted more than that.

I felt bad, don't know if that was repenting. I felt bad that I didn't know the Son except in manger depictions at Christmas. I cried about it for a few days. Then I went to find out what I needed to do for Him. Later I was baptized after I read about Jesus being baptized.
IOW I wasn't immediately filled with all sorts of great knowledge about God. I just wanted to know what He wanted from me. I grew up the eldest child, and the eldest child always does whatever their parents want to please them. So I just wanted to please Him.

Is something wrong with that?

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 08:06 PM
Because Eric, that would make man sovereign in salvation. If God predestines those whom He knows will believe, then God is dependent upon fallen man to save a people for Himself. Salvation would not be all of grace, but because God knew some would believe. Don't you see how that makes salvation man's doing, and not of grace?No, I don't. Don't you see how your view removes responsibility from man?


Why do only some men, of their own will believe and the rest don't? Does it have anything to do with the condition of fallen men? It has to do with being given the ability to choose.


Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,Here you go taking scripture out of context again. What was "according to the working of his mighty power"? Our faith? No.

Eph 1
15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

The working of his mighty power has to with the Father raising Christ from the dead and setting Him at His own right hand in heaven, not with giving us saving faith. I don't see anything there that says we were predestined to believe. I see Paul saying that he heard about their faith in the Lord Jesus. He talks about God giving them understanding and wisdom so that they would know Him better. This is speaking about people who are already believers and not about anyone being predestined by God to believe.


Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?The arm of the Lord is revealed to those who believe. Again, I don't see how this says that people are predestined to believe.


Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.Again, what is the context? Is it saying that Paul was sent to open only certain people's eyes and only turn certain people from darkness to light? No, it was his intention to lead everyone he preached to from darkness to light. That is why he spent many hours and even days trying to persuade people to believe (Acts 17-18). He knew that everyone had the capability of believing and that's why he spent all that time trying to persuade them instead of giving up after a short time.

Acts 26
15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
19Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

This passage shows that Paul was sent to teach that people are required to have faith in Christ and to repent and turn to God. The way in which people are delivered from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God is by hearing the word preached and responding with repentance and faith. People are required to make a willful decision to respond with repentance and faith or not.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 08:13 PM
I don't disagree with that. He could've been calling me all along, I just didn't hear any audible voice. Like I said, I thought being a good person was enough. Apparently God wanted more than that. Yeah, I know people that think being a good person is enough. Unfortunately, their definition of being a good person is rather liberal and quite flawed. No one is good and all have sinned. That is what "good people" need to realize. I happen to believe it is a willful choice that all people must make to acknowledge that they are sinners in need of mercy, forgiveness and salvation or not. Christ came to call sinners to repentance (Matt 9:13, Mark 2:17, Luke 5:32). Therefore, since all people are sinners, He came to call all people to repentance.


I felt bad, don't know if that was repenting.Feeling bad comes just before repentance which leads to salvation.

2 Cor 7
9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.


I felt bad that I didn't know the Son except in manger depictions at Christmas. I cried about it for a few days. Then I went to find out what I needed to do for Him. Later I was baptized after I read about Jesus being baptized.
IOW I wasn't immediately filled with all sorts of great knowledge about God. I just wanted to know what He wanted from me. I grew up the eldest child, and the eldest child always does whatever their parents want to please them. So I just wanted to please Him.

Is something wrong with that?Of course not.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 08:24 PM
Yes, by your understanding.
My understanding is that there is no "place" in heaven apart from God. When a person "can't stand the heat" as they say, they will be in a state of torment and/or punishment.The lake of fire is a place where people are cast, is it not? It may not be a physical place as we know physical places now, but still a place separate from God. A place that was originally prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41).


They are not allowed entry. Never is a long time, so I don't know about that.That is what scripture teaches. It mentions "everlasting fire", "everlasting punishment" and "no rest day nor night" forever and ever. It's not pleasant to think about, but we have to accept what scripture teaches. This shows how urgent it is to reach the lost while there is still time because this temporary life is the only chance people get for salvation. It is appointed for people to die once and then the judgment (Hebrews 9:27).

Jude 1
21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 10:59 PM
Yeah, I know people that think being a good person is enough. Unfortunately, their definition of being a good person is rather liberal and quite flawed. No one is good and all have sinned. That is what "good people" need to realize. I happen to believe it is a willful choice that all people must make to acknowledge that they are sinners in need of mercy, forgiveness and salvation or not. Christ came to call sinners to repentance (Matt 9:13, Mark 2:17, Luke 5:32). Therefore, since all people are sinners, He came to call all people to repentance.

I agree with you. But without that revelation of God on the Son I doubt many can realize it (it's so personal), I wouldn't have. And I believe that is alright, as that is where God wants them to be. Lot of responsibility comes with being a Christian. Everyone isn't always ready for that.


Feeling bad comes just before repentance which leads to salvation.

2 Cor 7
9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.


Sure the sorrow came first, but then baptism came and things seemed better. After the honeymoon was over the real work began. :)
Been at it some twenty five years now.

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 11:32 PM
The lake of fire is a place where people are cast, is it not? It may not be a physical place as we know physical places now, but still a place separate from God. A place that was originally prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41).
Matt. 25:41 is a parable.
I don't believe any place is separate from God. He created every "place".
Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Do you think He created a place to purposefully torture people?


That is what scripture teaches. It mentions "everlasting fire", "everlasting punishment" and "no rest day nor night" forever and ever. It's not pleasant to think about, but we have to accept what scripture teaches. This shows how urgent it is to reach the lost while there is still time because this temporary life is the only chance people get for salvation. It is appointed for people to die once and then the judgment (Hebrews 9:27).

Jude 1
21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.



Do you take analogical use of metaphor as literal? I don't.

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 01:04 AM
Roger---I know what Scripture teaches. But I understand the difficulty this poses for you. Because if names are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, then clearly God has not only predestined who is written there, but also assures us that all who are written there will be saved. Why? Because they are His predestined elect from the foundation of the world, and Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Perhaps you have no knowledge of names being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, so this comes as a surprise to you. This is a doctrine mostly ignored by those of free will. Not only is Christ the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, but all who are among His elect have also been written in His book of life.

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


Roger,
Look at the Greek language concerning these verses, the phrase, "from the foundation of the world". You cannot tell from the language structure whether it refers back to the names written or to the book of life. So, for you to apply it to the names written is not correct. Now, it may apply to it, but we do not know which one it applies to. However if you look at Rev. 13:8 it says, the book of life of the lamb, which was slain from the foundation of the world. Again, from the language structure we cannot tell which it refers to, but according to Rev. 13:8 it is the lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world, and the book belongs to Him, therefore, it would most likely be the book of life that is from the foundation of the world and not the names written.



Roger---I don't have to contend that the Jews knew Paul from the beginning of the world. It is clearly written in the passage you provide that they knew him from his youth. So what does this CLEAR passage of Scripture tell us? That the Jews are as God, knowing Paul even before he was born? No, the passage tells us that the Jews knew Paul beforehand, that is they knew what manner of life Paul has lived from his youth. In other words they are not only now becoming acquainted with who Paul is. They have known him from the beginning, beforehand, from his youth.

According to Scripture when does God know Paul and His chosen ones?

Ac 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Ga 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

When are we written in His book? Even before we were created in the womb, we were made, and not hidden, but written in His book.

Ps 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Ps 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
Ps 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Ps 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.


God knows everyone before they were born, you are using these verses to try to prove a point, that they were not intended to prove. Just because God knows everyone before they were born "does not" mean that this is what Paul means when he writes in Romans 8 :29. You are taking this out of context. Why do you need to go to the OT to try to prove what Paul is saying?

Roger,
Psalm 139 says , all my members were written in the book. How do you draw from this, that every believers name is written in hte lamb' book of life? How do you know this is the lamb's book of life?

Revelation 20:11-12 ( KJV ) 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Their is more than one book, the book in Psalm 139 is not called the book of life. Now, it may be the book of life but we don't know. However this is really a moot point because the names can be removed.

Revelation 3:5 ( KJV ) 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This one definitely "IS" the book of life and the names "CAN" be removed.


Roger---When did God first love us? Would it not be even before we were created, and when we were written in His book? I never said we love Him before salvation, but unless He first loves us, and then enables us to love Him we cannot love Him. Since a fruit of the Spirit is love, we cannot love as He loves without the Spirit.
1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


Roger,
You are off topic. Where do the verses you quoted, even hint at the idea that anyone is predestined to love God? It's not about who loved who first.

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 01:06 AM
Well I grew up at a Calvinist Church, although I don't consider myself one. I think many will indeed admit choice regarding salvation. I just don't think they will exert the fact that God is not at any point part of the salvific process. To state that man is entirely responsable for his own salvation is as incorrect as stating that man has no ability to influence or assist in the process of his salvation.

I never said that man could save himself.

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 01:27 AM
Are you suggesting that people are able to be righteous in their own power? What about the scriptures that say "no one is good" and "all have sinned"? If we can have our own righteousness, then please explain to me how that can be the case.

Righteousness is a declaration, it is not a thing. being self righteous means that we ting we are good or better than others. Our being righteous regarding salvation, is a declaration from God. God declares us righteous.
To be declared righteous we must do something, let's say we have faith in Christ, God declares that as a righteous act on our part. When Abraham offered Issac, God said that was righteous, because Abraham believed God. So, clearly we can do things that God considers righteous. Consider Zacharias and Elizabeth,

Luke 1:5-6 ( KJV ) 5There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Luke records that Zacharias and Elizabeth were righteous, walking in "ALL" the commandments and ordinances of the Lord. This was before Christ, so it wasn't the righteousness of Christ. So, yes we can be righteous, but it is a declaration from God when we obey Him. Now, they were not perfect, and I'm sure they were not without sin. However God did declare them righteous.

Now concerning the verses in Romans, consider this,


Romans 3:8-12 ( KJV ) 8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. 9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Notice the Scripture does not say there is none good, it says that there is none that "DO" good. That is a big difference. You can go into a prison and say that none of these people do good, However, does that mean that they are incapable of doing good? Certainly not, it just means that they do not choose to do good.

And yes all have sinned, however that does not mean that God will not consider us righteous, as with Zacharias and Elizabeth. Also consider this, Jesus said when the rich young ruler questioned Him that God alone is good.If Jesus didn't accept that comment that He was good what chance is there that we are good?

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 01:50 AM
How many different plans of salvation will you have us believe? You want us to believe that God saves the Jews through Christ in one manner, but then changes the way He saves Gentiles after the cross?

Perhaps the apostles never say "he who has an ear", but they certainly do have an awful lot to say about hearing. Who are these "other sheep" that Christ must bring, who shall "hear My voice", and be of one fold with one Shepherd among the sheep from the nation?

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Seems that whoever believes must first "hear" His voice. How do they hear? Supernaturally, through the power of the gospel and Holy Spirit.

Many Blessings,
RW

No my friend, look, Jesus said He had only come to Israel. So, His ministry, was to the Jews. He said, to the Jews, no one can come to me except the father draw him. Now, His earthly ministry ended when He went to the cross. Before this, He said, If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. This is clearly a reference to the cross. So Clearly this drawing by the Father stopped at the cross, and from that point "ALL" are drawn. So salvation is the same for everyone. Prior to the cross, God was preparing the crucifiction, that is why the Jews were blinded. If they were not blinded Christ would not have been crucified, Paul makes this clear.

1 Corinthians 2:6-8 ( KJV ) 6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

This is why God was drawing certain people during Christ's ministry. If God had revealed the plan to everyone, then Christ would not have been Crucified, Paul clearly states this.

Concerning the other sheep, I suspect that these are the gentiles, however, He does not tell us, so all we can do is speculate.

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 01:58 AM
I can't argue for or against Calvinism, but Scripture clearly shows us the choices we make are freely made. It is not a matter of whether our choices are freely made or not, but who is our master when making these free choices? When we are in bondage to satan, sin and death the only choices we freely make are against the Lord. When we have been delivered from the bondage to satan, sin and death the only choices we freely make are for the Lord. When in unrighteousness we are in the flesh, and while in the flesh we can do nothing good, holy or righteous. After being made righteous, we now how the Spirit of God Who guides us unto all truth, love, holiness and righteousness.

No problem with free choices, simply a problem with who is guiding us in making those choices.


Many Blessings,
RW

Can you support this with Scripture? I mean can you go to Scripture an show where this is the case, not just post a bunch of verses saying no one can do good. Paul said whoever you serve, is your master. He didn't say whoever is your master you serve.

RogerW
Nov 19th 2008, 02:48 AM
Roger,
Look at the Greek language concerning these verses, the phrase, "from the foundation of the world". You cannot tell from the language structure whether it refers back to the names written or to the book of life. So, for you to apply it to the names written is not correct. Now, it may apply to it, but we do not know which one it applies to. However if you look at Rev. 13:8 it says, the book of life of the lamb, which was slain from the foundation of the world. Again, from the language structure we cannot tell which it refers to, but according to Rev. 13:8 it is the lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world, and the book belongs to Him, therefore, it would most likely be the book of life that is from the foundation of the world and not the names written.

There is no mention of the Lamb in Rev 17:8. Which is why I quoted it. This appears to be a new doctrine for you. By comparing Rev 17:8 and 13:8 we discover that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. I know you don’t want to accept the plain language of Scripture, but there is no denying what the verses very clearly say. You don’t want to receive them because then you would have to explain how elect names are written in the book of life for salvation from the foundation of the world, and how your doctrine of free will tells us we are saved through our free will, and putting our faith in Christ. This is why those who follow the doctrine of free will typically ignore elect names written in His book of life from the foundation of the world, and probably why this is a new doctrine for you.



God knows everyone before they were born, you are using these verses to try to prove a point, that they were not intended to prove. Just because God knows everyone before they were born "does not" mean that this is what Paul means when he writes in Romans 8 :29. You are taking this out of context. Why do you need to go to the OT to try to prove what Paul is saying?

I wouldn’t deny that God knows every human born. He would have to since all the works done in the flesh are recorded in books in heaven (Rev 20:12). But the Lord Jesus Christ knows His sheep, and says of those who are not His sheep, “I never knew you: depart from Me.” Unbelievers and believers alike are known by God, but the Lord knows His own, and those remaining in unbelief; workers of iniquity, He never knew.

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Roger,
Psalm 139 says , all my members were written in the book. How do you draw from this, that every believers name is written in hte lamb' book of life? How do you know this is the lamb's book of life?

Because this is a Psalm of David, a man after God’s own heart. David is among the elect of God, and therefore written in His book of life from the foundation of the world.



Revelation 20:11-12 ( KJV ) 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Their is more than one book, the book in Psalm 139 is not called the book of life. Now, it may be the book of life but we don't know. However this is really a moot point because the names can be removed.

Revelation 3:5 ( KJV ) 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This one definitely "IS" the book of life and the names "CAN" be removed.

I’m really surprised that you would read this text so superficially. The verse says, “I will NOT blot out his name out of the book of life.” This is a sure promise to those who overcome, they can rest assured they will not be blotted out of His book, but instead He will confess their name (from the book) before the Father and before His angels. How can you say names can be blotted out, when clearly this is a sure promise they will not be blotted out?



Roger,
You are off topic. Where do the verses you quoted, even hint at the idea that anyone is predestined to love God? It's not about who loved who first.

There is no man so blind as the one who refuses to see!

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 19th 2008, 03:21 AM
Can you support this with Scripture? I mean can you go to Scripture an show where this is the case, not just post a bunch of verses saying no one can do good. Paul said whoever you serve, is your master. He didn't say whoever is your master you serve.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 03:37 AM
Roger---There is no mention of the Lamb in Rev 17:8. Which is why I quoted it. This appears to be a new doctrine for you. By comparing Rev 17:8 and 13:8 we discover that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. I know you don’t want to accept the plain language of Scripture, but there is no denying what the verses very clearly say. You don’t want to receive them because then you would have to explain how elect names are written in the book of life for salvation from the foundation of the world, and how your doctrine of free will tells us we are saved through our free will, and putting our faith in Christ. This is why those who follow the doctrine of free will typically ignore elect names written in His book of life from the foundation of the world, and probably why this is a new doctrine for you.

Sorry my friend, this is not new doctrine to me, I used to be a Calvinist and Have spent years dissecting their doctrines. (not difficult)

I notice you make no mention of anything in my post,you just reject it. As I said, look at the original language, you "CANNOT" tell from the language structure whether the phrase "from the foundation of the world" refers back to the names written, or to the book of life. It could refer to either one, so for you to use it and say it refers to the names written in not being fair to the text. It could possible refer to the names written, but WE DON"T KNOW. However you choose to use it to support your doctrine even though it may not.


Roger---I wouldn’t deny that God knows every human born. He would have to since all the works done in the flesh are recorded in books in heaven (Rev 20:12). But the Lord Jesus Christ knows His sheep, and says of those who are not His sheep, “I never knew you: depart from Me.” Unbelievers and believers alike are known by God, but the Lord knows His own, and those remaining in unbelief; workers of iniquity, He never knew.

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Roger, what does this have to do with the way Paul uses the word proginosko in Romans 8:29?


Roger---Because this is a Psalm of David, a man after God’s own heart. David is among the elect of God, and therefore written in His book of life from the foundation of the world.

That is not what the Psalm said. It said David's members were written in the book, how does this translate into the elect being written in the in the book of life before the foundation of the world? Even if David's name was written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, how does this translate into the elect being written there from the foundation of the world?




Roger---I’m really surprised that you would read this text so superficially. The verse says, “I will NOT blot out his name out of the book of life.” This is a sure promise to those who overcome, they can rest assured they will not be blotted out of His book, but instead He will confess their name (from the book) before the Father and before His angels. How can you say names can be blotted out, when clearly this is a sure promise they will not be blotted out?

I didn't read it superficially, it says, he who overcomes, will not be blotted out of the book. That means that the one who DOESN'T overcome WILL be blotted out of the book. And since it was written to the church at Sardis, it was written to believers. So, according to Jesus the elect CAN have their names blotted out of the book.




Roger---There is no man so blind as the one who refuses to see!

This is the typical Calvinist response when the doctrine fails.

You have not shown where anyone is predestined to love God.

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 04:07 AM
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Many Blessings,
RW

OK, the only free choices we can make when lost are against God and when saved only for God?


Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

What does this verse have to do with making free will choices?


Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Where does this say we can only make choices against God? We know all have sinned.

Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit

Where does this say we can only make choices against God? Those of the flesh do think on the things of the flesh, however, how does that say we can only make choices against God?

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be

The carnal mind is enmity against God, yes, but again how does that preclude a person from choosing to do something for God?

Let's look at all three of these verses from Romans 8
Paul is speaking to the Jewish believers at the church in Rome.


Romans 8:5-16 ( KJV ) 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Paul is telling these believers if they live after the flesh the will die. So, this alone shows that what you wrote cannot be. Paul says that they who are believers CAN make a decision against God.

RogerW
Nov 19th 2008, 04:09 AM
Sorry my friend, this is not new doctrine to me, I used to be a Calvinist and Have spent years dissecting their doctrines. (not difficult)

I notice you make no mention of anything in my post,you just reject it. As I said, look at the original language, you "CANNOT" tell from the language structure whether the phrase "from the foundation of the world" refers back to the names written, or to the book of life. It could refer to either one, so for you to use it and say it refers to the names written in not being fair to the text. It could possible refer to the names written, but WE DON"T KNOW. However you choose to use it to support your doctrine even though it may not.

It may be difficult to tell whether Rev 13:8 refers to the Lamb slain, or the names written from the foundation of the world. Which again, is why I quoted Rev 17:8 also, which has no mention of the Lamb, but only the names written from the foundation of the world. WE DO KNOW! You just do not want to accept the plain text. You would rather pretend the verse is ambiguous then to admit that names were written from the foundation of the world.



I didn't read it superficially, it says, he who overcomes, will not be blotted out of the book. That means that the one who DOESN'T overcome WILL be blotted out of the book. And since it was written to the church at Sardis, it was written to believers. So, according to Jesus the elect CAN have their names blotted out of the book.

This is a strange way to interpret Scripture. You argue from silence??? That's absurd! Read the whole context, which shows the few faithful in Sardis are the ones who overcome. It is a sure promise worded in strongly negative terms to assure faithful Christians in Sardis. It assures them they are absolutely safe and secure in Christ. Their names have been recorded in the book of life and they will never be erased. Elsewhere God testifies to His people, "See, I have engraved you on the palms of My hands" (Isa 49:16). He is inseparably linked to them, for they are the apple of His eye (Deut 32:10; Ps 17:8; Zec 2:8).



This is the typical Calvinist response when the doctrine fails.

No, actually this is a comment meant to try to get you to stop reading your free will doctrine into the Scripture and get you to actually see what I have said. But you would rather label anyone who dares to show your free will doctrine for the heresy it is. I have given you abundance of Scripture, and so has Yuke, and Mikey0, and you REFUSE to see the plain truth presented to you from the Word of God. You are more interested in being right, then having truth. So be it!

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 04:56 AM
Roger---It may be difficult to tell whether Rev 13:8 refers to the Lamb slain, or the names written from the foundation of the world. Which again, is why I quoted Rev 17:8 also, which has no mention of the Lamb, but only the names written from the foundation of the world. WE DO KNOW! You just do not want to accept the plain text. You would rather pretend the verse is ambiguous then to admit that names were written from the foundation of the world.

OK, the Greek Scholars are wrong and you are right.

It's not about the Lamb, it's about "the names written" and "the book of life" and both appear in 13:8 and 17:8

As I said, we can't say whether the phrase "from the foundation of the world" refers to "the names written" or to "the book of life".


Roger---This is a strange way to interpret Scripture. You argue from silence??? That's absurd! Read the whole context, which shows the few faithful in Sardis are the ones who overcome. It is a sure promise worded in strongly negative terms to assure faithful Christians in Sardis. It assures them they are absolutely safe and secure in Christ. Their names have been recorded in the book of life and they will never be erased. Elsewhere God testifies to His people, "See, I have engraved you on the palms of My hands" (Isa 49:16). He is inseparably linked to them, for they are the apple of His eye (Deut 32:10; Ps 17:8; Zec 2:8).

Nothing strange, just logical implication. If the overcomers are not blotted out, then those who do not over come will be. Just logical implication. If the elect cannot be blotted out, then there is no reason to even mention it.



Roger---No, actually this is a comment meant to try to get you to stop reading your free will doctrine into the Scripture and get you to actually see what I have said. But you would rather label anyone who dares to show your free will doctrine for the heresy it is. I have given you abundance of Scripture, and so has Yuke, and Mikey0, and you REFUSE to see the plain truth presented to you from the Word of God. You are more interested in being right, then having truth. So be it!


I am not reading anything into Scripture, you can claim that all day long. It seems the less proof you have the more you say it.

You have given me Scripture as has Yuke and Mieky0, and I have put your Scriptures in context and shown that they "DO NOT" support your doctrine. Roger, I held your doctrines, as I said I used to be a Calvinist. I understand them and I know their weakness. The doctrine is founded on the tenet of Total Depravity, which cannot be proven in Scripture. Martin Luther and Calvin got it wrong.

You on the other hand cannot tell me why Jesus would tell John and Peter, two of the elect, to be careful that they do not end up in hell.

You cannot tell me why the rich young ruler, who if elect, was not saved. And if not elect, why did Jesus tell him he could be saved.

In the parables, Jesus says to the disciples, to you it is given to understand the things of the kingdom of God, but to them who are without, it is taught in parables, that seeing they may not see and hearing the may not hear, lest they understand and be converted and I should forgive their sins. Here again, Jesus says them who are without, those who are not elect, yet Jesus says if they understood and were converted he would forgive their sins. How could this be for those who are not elect. You see, you find situations all over the Bible like this. How can Jesus say that the unelect can be saved, if, according to your doctrine the unelect can't be saved???

drew
Nov 19th 2008, 05:56 AM
It may be difficult to tell whether Rev 13:8 refers to the Lamb slain, or the names written from the foundation of the world. Which again, is why I quoted Rev 17:8 also, which has no mention of the Lamb, but only the names written from the foundation of the world. WE DO KNOW! You just do not want to accept the plain text. You would rather pretend the verse is ambiguous then to admit that names were written from the foundation of the world.
Let me, for the moment, concede that names were indeed written from the foundation of the world. This only requires us to accept fore-knowledge, not pre-destination. Although there is a lot of intuitive appeal to the argument that "if God fore-knows he must also pre-destine", but there are powerful arguments that this is not the case and that fore-knowledge does not necessitate pre-destination.

John146
Nov 19th 2008, 01:53 PM
I agree with you. But without that revelation of God on the Son I doubt many can realize it (it's so personal), I wouldn't have. And I believe that is alright, as that is where God wants them to be. Lot of responsibility comes with being a Christian. Everyone isn't always ready for that.Are you saying that it's alright for someone to not be a Christian or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

John146
Nov 19th 2008, 01:59 PM
Matt. 25:41 is a parable.
I don't believe any place is separate from God. He created every "place".
Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Do you think He created a place to purposefully torture people?No, but people will be in torment in the lake of fire. That is what scripture says. Does that make you uncomfortable? I don't believe God will be torturing them. I believe they will be in torment and will be weeping and gnashing their teeth because they will realize that they are separated from God forever and they won't have any more chances for eternal life in God's kingdom.


Do you take analogical use of metaphor as literal? I don't.No. I don't believe that verse was speaking of pulling people out of literal fire. My point in posting that passage was that scripture indicates that reaching the lost is an urgent thing. There is a spiritual war going on over people's souls and, unfortunately, doctrines like limited atonement help make people oblivious to that fact and remove any sense of urgency in reaching the lost.

John146
Nov 19th 2008, 02:07 PM
Righteousness is a declaration, it is not a thing. being self righteous means that we ting we are good or better than others. Our being righteous regarding salvation, is a declaration from God. God declares us righteous.
To be declared righteous we must do something, let's say we have faith in Christ, God declares that as a righteous act on our part. When Abraham offered Issac, God said that was righteous, because Abraham believed God. So, clearly we can do things that God considers righteous. Consider Zacharias and Elizabeth,

Luke 1:5-6 ( KJV ) 5There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Luke records that Zacharias and Elizabeth were righteous, walking in "ALL" the commandments and ordinances of the Lord. This was before Christ, so it wasn't the righteousness of Christ. So, yes we can be righteous, but it is a declaration from God when we obey Him. Now, they were not perfect, and I'm sure they were not without sin. However God did declare them righteous.

Now concerning the verses in Romans, consider this,


Romans 3:8-12 ( KJV ) 8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. 9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Notice the Scripture does not say there is none good, it says that there is none that "DO" good. That is a big difference. You can go into a prison and say that none of these people do good, However, does that mean that they are incapable of doing good? Certainly not, it just means that they do not choose to do good.

And yes all have sinned, however that does not mean that God will not consider us righteous, as with Zacharias and Elizabeth. Also consider this, Jesus said when the rich young ruler questioned Him that God alone is good.If Jesus didn't accept that comment that He was good what chance is there that we are good?I pretty much agree with what you're saying, if I'm understanding you correctly. None of us are good but God can declare things that we do as being righteous. Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness. That doesn't mean he was good or wasn't a sinner, but it does mean that God will reward someone's faith and count it to them for righteousness. Without faith it is impossible to please God. All people have the ability to have faith, but it's a willful choice that must be made.

John146
Nov 19th 2008, 03:06 PM
Nothing strange, just logical implication. If the overcomers are not blotted out, then those who do not over come will be. Just logical implication. If the elect cannot be blotted out, then there is no reason to even mention it.I agree. Also, for anyone who thinks that it's not possible for someone to have their name blotted out of the book of life, they would have to do some fancy twisting of this verse:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

And what about this passage:

Deut 29
18Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
19And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
20The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.


And this one:

Exodus 32
31And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 03:32 PM
I pretty much agree with what you're saying, if I'm understanding you correctly. None of us are good but God can declare things that we do as being righteous. Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness. That doesn't mean he was good or wasn't a sinner, but it does mean that God will reward someone's faith and count it to them for righteousness. Without faith it is impossible to please God. All people have the ability to have faith, but it's a willful choice that must be made.

That is exactly what I am saying.

John146
Nov 19th 2008, 03:38 PM
No, actually this is a comment meant to try to get you to stop reading your free will doctrine into the Scripture and get you to actually see what I have said. But you would rather label anyone who dares to show your free will doctrine for the heresy it is.Heresy?

Heresy: an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma; an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards

The dogma or generally accepted belief of the early church was a belief in free will. See this link: http://www.inplainsite.org/html/church_fathers_and_free_will.html

Here is another one: http://www.jarom.net/greekdad.php


I have given you abundance of Scripture, and so has Yuke, and Mikey0, and you REFUSE to see the plain truth presented to you from the Word of God. You are more interested in being right, then having truth. So be it!All I see is that you have given an abundance of misinterpretations of scripture.

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 04:40 PM
Heresy?

Heresy: an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma; an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards

The dogma or generally accepted belief of the early church was a belief in free will. See this link: http://www.inplainsite.org/html/church_fathers_and_free_will.html

Here is another one: http://www.jarom.net/greekdad.php

All I see is that you have given an abundance of misinterpretations of scripture.

Hi Eric,

Yes, the early church is a wealth of information and it is clear that they believed in free will. I have tried not to bring the early church into the discussion because a lot of people just reject what they have to say. However, even from an historical point we have to ask, why did they believe in free will and not the doctrines of predestination.

Here is a quote from Justin Martyr,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the layer the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone.

Here is section from Irenaeus, He was writing to refute the doctrines of the Gnostics, This can be found in His work, Against Heresies.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1




Chap. XXXVII.—Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.


4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1 Cor. 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1 Pet. 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph. 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph. 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1 Cor. 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? [B]But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God. 5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith 520 be it unto thee;” (Matt. 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Matt. 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Matt. 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (John 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Matt. 23:37, 38)

Here is a snippet from Tullian, in his writing, against Marcion,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3


Well, then, it was proper that God should be known; it was no doubt a good and reasonable thing. Proper also was it that there should be something worthy of knowing God. What could be found so worthy as the image and likeness of God? This also was undoubtedly good and reasonable. Therefore it was proper that (he who is) the image and likeness of God should be formed with a free will and a mastery of himself; so that this very thing—namely, freedom of will and self-command—might be reckoned as the image and likeness of God in him. For this purpose such an essence was adapted to man as suited this character even the afflatus of the Deity, Himself free and uncontrolled

Hippolytus, in his book, A Refutation of All Heresies.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5

For it is in regard of our desiring anything that is wicked, or our meditating upon it, that what is evil is so denominated. Evil had no existence from the beginning, but came into being subsequently. Since man has free will, a law has been defined for his guidance by the Deity, not without answering a good purpose. For if man did not possess the power to will and not to will, why should a law be established? For a law will not be laid down for an animal devoid of reason, but a bridle and a whip; (Psalms 32:9) whereas to man has been given a precept and penalty to perform, or for not carrying into execution what has been enjoined.

John146
Nov 19th 2008, 04:53 PM
Hi Eric,

Yes, the early church is a wealth of information and it is clear that they believed in free will. I have tried not to bring the early church into the discussion because a lot of people just reject what they have to say. We shouldn't take what they have to say as scripture, but I wanted to point out that if the free will doctrine was heresy then there was a lot of early church fathers that were believing in heresy. There are some issues that people try to say that the early church fathers mostly agreed upon that turns out they were divided on it when you take a closer look. That's when I start having an issue with bringing the early church fathers into the discussion. But in this case they seem to have been mostly in agreement on the free will doctrine until Augustine came around. I can't find any writings of early church fathers before Augustine that didn't believe in free will.

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 05:04 PM
We shouldn't take what they have to say as scripture, but I wanted to point out that if the free will doctrine was heresy then there was a lot of early church fathers that were believing in heresy. There are some issues that people try to say that the early church fathers mostly agreed upon that turns out they were divided on it when you take a closer look. That's when I start having an issue with bringing the early church fathers into the discussion. But in this case they seem to have been mostly in agreement on the free will doctrine until Augustine came around. I can't find any writings of early church fathers before Augustine that didn't believe in free will.

Yes, that is the way I have seen it also. You are correct, they should not be put on the same level with Scripture. As you have pointed out they were pretty much in agreement on this issue and given the fact that they were pretty much all over the region and not localized shows that this was the teaching of the whole church in general.

RogerW
Nov 19th 2008, 05:52 PM
Heresy?

Heresy: an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma; an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards

The dogma or generally accepted belief of the early church was a belief in free will. See this link: http://www.inplainsite.org/html/church_fathers_and_free_will.html

Here is another one: http://www.jarom.net/greekdad.php

All I see is that you have given an abundance of misinterpretations of scripture.


Hi Eric,

Yes, the early church is a wealth of information and it is clear that they believed in free will. I have tried not to bring the early church into the discussion because a lot of people just reject what they have to say. However, even from an historical point we have to ask, why did they believe in free will and not the doctrines of predestination.



I have no intention of going through all the writings of the early church fathers, so in curiosity I breifly search through the Hall of History re: early church fathers, and quickly found two writings that seem to prove that they too believe that salvation is of the Lord!

Clement of Rome [A.D. 30-100]

Chapter XXXII.—We are justified not by our own works, but by faith.
All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ignatius [A.D. 30-107]

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians
Shorter and Longer Versions

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning Literally, “before the ages.” of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united These words may agree with “glory,” but are better applied to the “Church.” and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Nov 19th 2008, 06:10 PM
Are you saying that it's alright for someone to not be a Christian or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

Yes, it is alright. I had a hard time understanding this for a while as well.
God just gives and gives to mankind, whether they are Christian or not. He wants us to see His goodness without coercion (the act of compelling by force of authority).


No, but people will be in torment in the lake of fire. That is what scripture says. Does that make you uncomfortable? I don't believe God will be torturing them. I believe they will be in torment and will be weeping and gnashing their teeth because they will realize that they are separated from God forever and they won't have any more chances for eternal life in God's kingdom.

No. I don't believe that verse was speaking of pulling people out of literal fire. My point in posting that passage was that scripture indicates that reaching the lost is an urgent thing. There is a spiritual war going on over people's souls and, unfortunately, doctrines like limited atonement help make people oblivious to that fact and remove any sense of urgency in reaching the lost.

The "spiritual war going on over people's souls" is a war they fight within themselves. Just as the "kingdom is within" us and that is where the battle begins.

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The Greek for "within you" can also be translated "among you" or "in your midst".

As for reaching the lost, are they lost from God. Are we not to pray for one another as well as them, IOW all humanity, to come to His saving grace. There is nothing we can do beyond this.
The churches message is His message, "repent for the kingdom."

There is One able to save and to destroy. paraphrased from James 1:21
Jesus never said He would save anyone who didn't want to be saved. We are all sacrifices which God prepares.

John146
Nov 19th 2008, 09:02 PM
I have no intention of going through all the writings of the early church fathers, so in curiosity I breifly search through the Hall of History re: early church fathers, and quickly found two writings that seem to prove that they too believe that salvation is of the Lord!

Clement of Rome [A.D. 30-100]

Chapter XXXII.—We are justified not by our own works, but by faith.
All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ignatius [A.D. 30-107]

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians
Shorter and Longer Versions

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning Literally, “before the ages.” of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united These words may agree with “glory,” but are better applied to the “Church.” and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.

Many Blessings,
RWMy early church fathers could beat up your early church fathers. ;)

Teke
Nov 19th 2008, 09:12 PM
Perhaps "free agent" is a better term than "free will". That is, to keep from confusing who's "will" we're talking about. :spin:

John146
Nov 19th 2008, 09:13 PM
Yes, it is alright. I had a hard time understanding this for a while as well.
God just gives and gives to mankind, whether they are Christian or not. He wants us to see His goodness without coercion (the act of compelling by force of authority). Do you not have any concern for the lost?


The "spiritual war going on over people's souls" is a war they fight within themselves.There's a war within between the flesh and the spirit but also there is a spiritual enemy that is looking for opportunities to devour people. Should we not be concerned about that?


As for reaching the lost, are they lost from God. Are we not to pray for one another as well as them, IOW all humanity, to come to His saving grace. There is nothing we can do beyond this. Do you think prayer is not important or does not make any difference? Also, there is more we can do than that. Paul spent hours and even days trying to persuade people to believe in Christ. Were his efforts in vain?


The churches message is His message, "repent for the kingdom."

There is One able to save and to destroy. paraphrased from James 1:21
Jesus never said He would save anyone who didn't want to be saved.Of course He doesn't. People willingly choose whether or not they want to be saved.


We are all sacrifices which God prepares.What do you mean by that?

John146
Nov 19th 2008, 09:18 PM
Perhaps "free agent" is a better term than "free will". That is, to keep from confusing who's "will" we're talking about. :spin:It doesn't matter too much what we call it, does it? As long as we understand what the issue is that we're discussing. I think everyone here understands that the issue comes down to whether or not salvation is offered to everyone which implies that everyone has the ability to accept it or if God gives salvation to the few chosen while not giving it to the rest for reasons that only He understands and are not given in scripture. What we call those two opposing views doesn't matter all that much as long as we understand what the views are.

Teke
Nov 19th 2008, 09:26 PM
Do you not have any concern for the lost?

There's a war within between the flesh and the spirit but also there is a spiritual enemy that is looking for opportunities to devour people. Should we not be concerned about that?

Do you think prayer is not important or does not make any difference? Also, there is more we can do than that. Paul spent hours and even days trying to persuade people to believe in Christ. Were his efforts in vain?

Of course He doesn't. People willingly choose whether or not they want to be saved.

What do you mean by that?

Of course I believe prayer makes all the difference.

Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

What else does one do when hanging on a cross but pray.

And of course I am concerned with the things of God which includes the lost and the downtrodden (prey of the devil). And I don't believe anything the Apostles did was in vain. But it is with my faith that I must fight this battle.
Don't we all know if God could bring us to salvation in Him then He is capable of bringing others. How would He do this besides us first being examples of His salvation, by our working out our own salvation. We have to get the stick out of our eye if we are to help another. Matt. 7:3, Lk. 6:41

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

And what I meant by all being sacrifices.
Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Salt both preserves and makes fire burn brighter.

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 09:30 PM
I have no intention of going through all the writings of the early church fathers, so in curiosity I breifly search through the Hall of History re: early church fathers, and quickly found two writings that seem to prove that they too believe that salvation is of the Lord!

Clement of Rome [A.D. 30-100]

Chapter XXXII.—We are justified not by our own works, but by faith.
All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ignatius [A.D. 30-107]

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians
Shorter and Longer Versions

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning Literally, “before the ages.” of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united These words may agree with “glory,” but are better applied to the “Church.” and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger, put these in context.

The quote from Clement is speaking of being justified not saved. It doesn't say they were predestined to be saved. It says they were justified, how? by faith. Read the whole letter and you will see that He does not hold to your idea of predestination.

Here is chapter 7, to see why they were justified.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Chap. VII.—An Exhortation to Repentance.

These things, beloved, we write unto you, not merely to admonish you of your duty, but also to remind ourselves. For we are struggling on the same arena, and the same conflict is assigned to both of us. Wherefore let us give up vain and fruitless cares, and approach to the glorious and venerable rule of our holy calling. Let us attend to what is good, pleasing, and acceptable in the sight of Him who formed us. Let us look stedfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious that blood is to God, which, having been shed for our salvation, has set the grace of repentance before the whole world. Let us turn to every age that has passed, and learn that, from generation to generation, the Lord has granted a place of repentance to all such as would be converted unto Him. Noah preached repentance, and as many as listened to him were saved. (Gen. 7; 1 Pet. 3:20; 2 Pet. 2:5) Jonah proclaimed destruction to the Ninevites; (Jonah 3) but they, repenting of their sins, propitiated God by prayer, and obtained salvation, although they were aliens [to the covenant] of God.



The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Full of holy designs, ye did, with true earnestness of mind and a godly confidence, stretch forth your hands to God Almighty, beseeching Him to be merciful unto you, if ye had been guilty of any involuntary transgression. Day and night ye were anxious for the whole brotherhood, (1 Pet. 2:17) that the number of God’s elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

And again, in another place, [the Scripture] saith, "With a harmless man thou shalt prove thyself harmless, and with an elect man thou shalt be elect, and with a perverse man thou shalt show thyself perverse." (Ps. 18:25, 26) Let us cleave, therefore, to the innocent and righteous, since these are the elect of God.

And regarding Ignatius, in the passage you quoted He. says it is the church that is predestined, not individuals.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Having obtained good proof that thy mind is fixed in God as upon an immoveable rock, I loudly glorify [His name] that I have been thought worthy [to behold] thy blameless face, which may I ever enjoy in God! I entreat thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to press forward in thy course, and to exhort all that they may be saved.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Now I beseech thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to add [speed] to thy course, and that thou ever pray for all men that they may be saved,


Context, context, context.

Teke
Nov 19th 2008, 09:32 PM
It doesn't matter too much what we call it, does it? As long as we understand what the issue is that we're discussing. I think everyone here understands that the issue comes down to whether or not salvation is offered to everyone which implies that everyone has the ability to accept it or if God gives salvation to the few chosen while not giving it to the rest for reasons that only He understands and are not given in scripture. What we call those two opposing views doesn't matter all that much as long as we understand what the views are.

I believe I've made my stance clear on this. Salvation is freely offered to all. Everyone has the ability to accept that salvation when they are ready.

John146
Nov 19th 2008, 10:15 PM
Of course I believe prayer makes all the difference.

Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

What else does one do when hanging on a cross but pray.

And of course I am concerned with the things of God which includes the lost and the downtrodden (prey of the devil). And I don't believe anything the Apostles did was in vain. But it is with my faith that I must fight this battle.
Don't we all know if God could bring us to salvation in Him then He is capable of bringing others. How would He do this besides us first being examples of His salvation, by our working out our own salvation. We have to get the stick out of our eye if we are to help another. Matt. 7:3, Lk. 6:41

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

And what I meant by all being sacrifices.
Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Salt both preserves and makes fire burn brighter.There, that was better. You were much more clear in what you believe in this post than the previous one. :)

John146
Nov 19th 2008, 10:16 PM
I believe I've made my stance clear on this.Well, not to me. But you have made yourself clear now and I appreciate that.


Salvation is freely offered to all. Everyone has the ability to accept that salvation when they are ready.Yes, or otherwise it couldn't be said that God desired all to repent and to be saved.

RogerW
Nov 20th 2008, 07:53 PM
Roger, put these in context.

The quote from Clement is speaking of being justified not saved. It doesn't say they were predestined to be saved. It says they were justified, how? by faith. Read the whole letter and you will see that He does not hold to your idea of predestination.

Oh yeah if memory serves me, you believe that we are not saved until we persevere. You speak of salvation in tenses. So do you also believe we can be justified and not be saved?

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I agree that Scripture speaks of salvation in tenses, meaning since we have been saved, we are being saved, and therefore we will be saved; i.e. raised bodily to glory. Can you prove that Clement agreed with your understanding of salvation, instead of mine? Because the context you give shows a call to repentance to them he calls "beloved" and he also speaks of their salvation in a past tense, "Let us look stedfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious that blood is to God, which, having been shed for our salvation, has set the grace of repentance before the whole world."

Would you not agree that there is still a need for a call to repentance after salvation? We still choose to sin at times even though we have been saved (justified; rendered just or innocent), therefore it stands to reason we must often be converted (turned again) to Christ through repentance.

All that you have shown in context regarding what Ignatius wrote is that Ignatius exhorted ("I entreat thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed") believers to press on for the cause, because through their faithfulness to the gospel others too may be saved.

Your context does nothing to disprove Ignatius both believed and taught the doctrines of predestination and election.

You have also used the writings of Justin Martyr A.D. 100-165 to prove the church fathers taught free will. Were you aware of Justin's famous thesis? He believed that the philosophers, being enlightened by the divine Logos, were in some sense Christians without knowing it. He stated, "For we worship and love, next to God, the Logos, who comes from the unbegotten and ineffable God, since it was for our sake that he became a human being, in order that he might share in our sufferings and bring us healing. For all writers were able to see the truth darkly, on account of the implanted seed of the Logos which was grafted into them." He argued that anyone who tries to act according to this Logos can be thought of as a Christian - including Socrates. This aspect of Justin's teaching would be repudiated by most other writers of the patristic period, who felt that he had gone too far in his attempts to relate faith and philosophy.

Justin also once said that it is unnecessary for believers to give an account of the Christian faith. It is sufficient to say, "We have come to the faith." Justin Martyr searched for answers on vital issues among various philosophies, and finally found his "contentment" in Platonism.

The church fathers faced the question: "Who is Jesus Christ?" Either Jesus was God and still is, or he is not and never has been. They answered questions that our generation should be asking again. That's why the study of the church fathers is relevant. But like every writing they must be discerned through the Scripture, and where they are found lacking, they must be discarded. We cannot simply say that they were closer to Christ and therefore they have greater discernment. They lived in a time of overwhelming decadence and persecution, and heresy that crept into the church at her beginning was their greatest challenge.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Nov 20th 2008, 08:08 PM
"heresy that crept into the church at her beginning was their greatest challenge."

I'd say that spiritual battle hasn't stopped. :)

I can assure you Roger, the EF's didn't hold any predestination view like we see now-a-days. As far as they were concerned you were predestined by Christ.

RogerW
Nov 20th 2008, 10:10 PM
"heresy that crept into the church at her beginning was their greatest challenge."

I'd say that spiritual battle hasn't stopped. :)

I can assure you Roger, the EF's didn't hold any predestination view like we see now-a-days. As far as they were concerned you were predestined by Christ.

I agree Eve! The same battle against heresy has been on-going from the beginning of the church in history.

Who teaches now-a-days that predestination is not by Christ? The Scripture clearly confirms this!

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 20th 2008, 10:18 PM
Oh yeah if memory serves me, you believe that we are not saved until we persevere. You speak of salvation in tenses. So do you also believe we can be justified and not be saved?

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I agree that Scripture speaks of salvation in tenses, meaning since we have been saved, we are being saved, and therefore we will be saved; i.e. raised bodily to glory. Can you prove that Clement agreed with your understanding of salvation, instead of mine? Because the context you give shows a call to repentance to them he calls "beloved" and he also speaks of their salvation in a past tense, "Let us look stedfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious that blood is to God, which, having been shed for our salvation, has set the grace of repentance before the whole world."

Would you not agree that there is still a need for a call to repentance after salvation? We still choose to sin at times even though we have been saved (justified; rendered just or innocent), therefore it stands to reason we must often be converted (turned again) to Christ through repentance.

All that you have shown in context regarding what Ignatius wrote is that Ignatius exhorted ("I entreat thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed") believers to press on for the cause, because through their faithfulness to the gospel others too may be saved.

Your context does nothing to disprove Ignatius both believed and taught the doctrines of predestination and election.

You have also used the writings of Justin Martyr A.D. 100-165 to prove the church fathers taught free will. Were you aware of Justin's famous thesis? He believed that the philosophers, being enlightened by the divine Logos, were in some sense Christians without knowing it. He stated, "For we worship and love, next to God, the Logos, who comes from the unbegotten and ineffable God, since it was for our sake that he became a human being, in order that he might share in our sufferings and bring us healing. For all writers were able to see the truth darkly, on account of the implanted seed of the Logos which was grafted into them." He argued that anyone who tries to act according to this Logos can be thought of as a Christian - including Socrates. This aspect of Justin's teaching would be repudiated by most other writers of the patristic period, who felt that he had gone too far in his attempts to relate faith and philosophy.

Justin also once said that it is unnecessary for believers to give an account of the Christian faith. It is sufficient to say, "We have come to the faith." Justin Martyr searched for answers on vital issues among various philosophies, and finally found his "contentment" in Platonism.

The church fathers faced the question: "Who is Jesus Christ?" Either Jesus was God and still is, or he is not and never has been. They answered questions that our generation should be asking again. That's why the study of the church fathers is relevant. But like every writing they must be discerned through the Scripture, and where they are found lacking, they must be discarded. We cannot simply say that they were closer to Christ and therefore they have greater discernment. They lived in a time of overwhelming decadence and persecution, and heresy that crept into the church at her beginning was their greatest challenge.

Many Blessings,
RW


First of all, I didn' put the church fathers forth to prove anything, I was merely agreeing with Eric and gave him some additional quotes. It is clear if you read the writings of Ignatius and Clement that they did not hold to your doctrine. Yes, they speak of election and predestination, but not in the sense that you do. As I said they believed that everyone has a chance to be saved. Regarding Justin, you will need to supply the source where you got the info, because I have not seen it. However, he still believed that everyone could be saved and he believed that people do have a choice.

Teke
Nov 21st 2008, 01:07 PM
I agree Eve! The same battle against heresy has been on-going from the beginning of the church in history.

Who teaches now-a-days that predestination is not by Christ? The Scripture clearly confirms this!

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Many Blessings,
RW

I suppose it is in how one words the concept. I've been here a while, and I've seen plenty who believe individually they are predestined. As if God knew them before the foundation of the world like God knew Christ.
What they seem to miss is the "us" part, and that part is the church. As it is the church which is predestined in Christ, which is a collective of persons and not just individuals. His sovereignty is over the collective, not the particular individual persons of the collective. This is because this collective is only recognized by the person of the Son.

So it is the belief that some have, that God knew them personally before the foundation like Christ, that I disagree with. My reasoning for disagreeing with such a thought, is that line of thought, has a person seeing themselves as preconceived or begotten like the Son.

John146
Nov 21st 2008, 03:04 PM
what happens to those in the world who have not heard of Christ? or those raised as Muslim, Hindu etc? How can that conditioning as a child who grows to be an adult who believes in another religion be changed so that they are saved?

TLRead Romans 1:16-32. All people have a knowledge of God. It says "that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them...even his eternal power and Godhead" (Rom 1:19-20). It is everyone's responsibility to use that knowledge to be thankful to God and to glorify Him for who He is (Rom 1:21). But many choose to not retain God in their knowledge (Rom 1:28) and to not thank Him or glorify Him. They become vain in their imaginations (Rom 1:21) and become fools (Rom 1:22). That is by their own choice to not be thankful, not to glorify God, to change "the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things", to change "the truth of God into a lie" and to worship and serve "the creature more than the Creator". It isn't as if they aren't given any opportunity to repent. God only gives them over to their sin after giving them plenty of chances to repent. They are without excuse (Rom 1:20). I believe those who choose to retain God in their knowledge will have the gospel preached to them. God will lead someone to bring it to them so that they have an opportunity to respond to it.

Also, there probably are a lot less people that haven't heard the gospel than you realize.

Romans 10
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

As for those who are brought up to be Hindus or Muslims, if they are truly seeking the truth rather than allowing themselves to be brainwashed, then they can be persuaded through hearing the gospel. It depends on someone's heart, whether they have hardened it towards God or not. Good looks at people's hearts. He will lead people who have humbled themselves to Himself through the gospel of Christ and will leave those who exalt themselves and think they have no need for a Savior in their sins.

Isaiah 66
2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Luke 18
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 21st 2008, 04:19 PM
what happens to those in the world who have not heard of Christ? or those raised as Muslim, Hindu etc? How can that conditioning as a child who grows to be an adult who believes in another religion be changed so that they are saved?

TL

The answer for everyone you've mentioned is I don't know. We are not presently with God administering his judgements with him. We have to be careful not to believe that just because one has great knowledge of scriptures, that God automatically has determined that individual to be his. This is why we should all ideally pray that God has mercy on all of mankind with whatever judgements he has in store for us...as we don't know the eventual future for every man. Remember that it states in scripture, blessed are the merciful..for they will receive mercy.

RogerW
Nov 21st 2008, 05:14 PM
I suppose it is in how one words the concept. I've been here a while, and I've seen plenty who believe individually they are predestined. As if God knew them before the foundation of the world like God knew Christ.

What they seem to miss is the "us" part, and that part is the church. As it is the church which is predestined in Christ, which is a collective of persons and not just individuals. His sovereignty is over the collective, not the particular individual persons of the collective. This is because this collective is only recognized by the person of the Son.

So it is the belief that some have, that God knew them personally before the foundation like Christ, that I disagree with. My reasoning for disagreeing with such a thought, is that line of thought, has a person seeing themselves as preconceived or begotten like the Son.

Greetings Eve,

I don't think anyone who embraces the biblical doctrine of predestination would argue against those predestined being "The Church Victorious"! Yes, the true Church will be a Whole or Compete Church. It makes no sense to say the true Church is not made up of unique individuals. How can She be The Church and not consist of heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, the first born among many brethren? God wrote names of individuals, who will become the Church Victorious. These are found in the church militant, or the church in time in this world. How can the True Church not consist of individuals since in the fullness of time God will reward everlasting life to those names written in the Lambs Book of Life?

Again, I don't know of anyone who embraces the biblical doctrine of predestination as having been begotten as Christ alone is. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "preconceived."

The Bible teaches that God does indeed know His predestined elect from the foundation of the world. How could He write their names in His book of life if He does not know who they will be? God chose them (predestined, elect), therefore He assures they will be created in the womb, and born in time. They are not chosen based upon who they will be, but they will be, based upon the fact that they were chosen. It isn't about the one chosen, but about God choosing them and creating them to be whatever He desires. We are all simply clay in the Potters hand to do with whatsoever He pleases.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 21st 2008, 05:34 PM
what happens to those in the world who have not heard of Christ? or those raised as Muslim, Hindu etc? How can that conditioning as a child who grows to be an adult who believes in another religion be changed so that they are saved?

TL

Greetings TurboLung,

Welcome to the community!

Eric (John 146) has pointed you to that passage in Ro 1 that shows us that all men have been given a knowledge of God. This is revealed to every man through nature, or natural creation. Also our consciences tell us there is a God. But fallen man instead of worshipping God and giving Him all glory turn the truth of God into a lie, and they all worship and serve the created instead of the Creator.

Every man born in Adam, that is born of flesh and blood are born in this fallen condition. If the only knowledge that man ever receives is what he knows from creation, conscience and history, it is enough to tell them they should love God, and therefore when they don't they are without excuse. No man will be able to stand in the Judgment claiming they didn't know God. The truth is that every man knows God, and knows He is worthy to be worshipped and praised, but they love their sin more then they love God. Therefore the are without excuse and will be condemned in the Judgment.

The Bible tells us regarding fallen man, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Ro 3:10-12). No one in their fallen condition will seek God for life. This is why Christ must come to seek and to save His lost (Lu 19:10). It really does not matter what religion or country you grow up in, if you have been ordained unto eternal life (Acts 13:48), then the Lord will find His lost sheep (Lu 15:6; Jo 10:1-18), and they will "hear" and be given the gift of God's grace, faith to believe, and turn to Him for life, and not one of them will be lost.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Nov 22nd 2008, 03:38 PM
Greetings Eve,

I don't think anyone who embraces the biblical doctrine of predestination would argue against those predestined being "The Church Victorious"! Yes, the true Church will be a Whole or Compete Church. It makes no sense to say the true Church is not made up of unique individuals. How can She be The Church and not consist of heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, the first born among many brethren? God wrote names of individuals, who will become the Church Victorious. These are found in the church militant, or the church in time in this world. How can the True Church not consist of individuals since in the fullness of time God will reward everlasting life to those names written in the Lambs Book of Life?

Again, I don't know of anyone who embraces the biblical doctrine of predestination as having been begotten as Christ alone is. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "preconceived."

The Bible teaches that God does indeed know His predestined elect from the foundation of the world. How could He write their names in His book of life if He does not know who they will be? God chose them (predestined, elect), therefore He assures they will be created in the womb, and born in time. They are not chosen based upon who they will be, but they will be, based upon the fact that they were chosen. It isn't about the one chosen, but about God choosing them and creating them to be whatever He desires. We are all simply clay in the Potters hand to do with whatsoever He pleases.

Many Blessings,
RW

By preconceived I mean some prior created state, in which God knew them individually before the creation. The manner in which such views are presented varies.

God knows who "they" will be only by Christ.

Are you saying God wrote "His book of life" before creation?

RogerW
Nov 22nd 2008, 06:17 PM
By preconceived I mean some prior created state, in which God knew them individually before the creation. The manner in which such views are presented varies.

God knows who "they" will be only by Christ.

I think we agree here. It wasn't that God knows me, or you as we are. In other words He didn't choose us because He knew that we would freely choose Him. In fact He knows the exact opposite, that no man can freely choose Him. To be known of Him assures we will be born and that we will be created in Christ. Consider John the Baptist for example. Not that we are all indwelt by the Spirit from the womb, but that His chosen elect will be made in the likeness of Christ because God has ordained it in eternity past. We aren't chosen because we are better in any way, but simply to show that God in His providence will have mercy and compassion on whosoever He wills. Not determined by anything good or bad in us.



Are you saying God wrote "His book of life" before creation?

Yes!

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

If our name is not found in the book of life at the Judgment, then we will be cast into the lake of fire.

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:04 AM
Roger, why would God write names in the book before creation if He concluded us all in disobedience? (Romans 11:32)
Seems the names could only be written if one was "found", "in Christ."

RogerW
Nov 23rd 2008, 06:46 PM
Roger, why would God write names in the book before creation if He concluded us all in disobedience? (Romans 11:32)
Seems the names could only be written if one was "found", "in Christ."

Hi Eve,

The elect are found in Christ from the foundation of the world. Remember He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and all who are in Him are in through Covenant promise. Christ is the means of the Covenant Promise established in heaven before creation. The moment the names were written in His book of life, it was as though they had already been born in time, and saved in Him.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Nov 24th 2008, 01:27 AM
Hi Eve,

The elect are found in Christ from the foundation of the world. Remember He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and all who are in Him are in through Covenant promise. Christ is the means of the Covenant Promise established in heaven before creation. The moment the names were written in His book of life, it was as though they had already been born in time, and saved in Him.

Many Blessings,
RW
Hey Roger,

The subject of predestination is difficult for any religion. But I don't believe it settles the issue of "assurance".

What is your view or opinion in regards to "assurance" in relation to your view on predestination? Is it, one in which in order to possess assurance of salvation, you must believe you have salvation?
Such reasoning has been called "fiducial faith". And that is completely subjective, just as the Mormon "burning in the bosom".


The moment the names were written in His book of life, it was as though they had already been born in time, and saved in Him.

How does this work with Jesus' words that He would confess us before the Father if we confess Him before man. (Matt. 10:38, Lk 12:8) Why would He need to confess us if we're already in the book? And why would other scriptures indicate that one could be "blotted out" of that book.

Ex: Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Couldn't the book just be a book of everyone who ever has life?

Peace,
Eve

RogerW
Nov 24th 2008, 03:32 AM
Hey Roger,
The subject of predestination is difficult for any religion. But I don't believe it settles the issue of "assurance".
What is your view or opinion in regards to "assurance" in relation to your view on predestination? Is it, one in which in order to possess assurance of salvation, you must believe you have salvation?
Such reasoning has been called "fiducial faith". And that is completely subjective, just as the Mormon "burning in the bosom".

Hi Eve,

We certainly do have assurance based on firm faith. How do we know the faith we have will not fail? Because the faith we have is given us from God. It is when we put assurance in our natural faith that we fail. But we know that we have been saved by grace through faith that is not our own, but the gift of God's grace, that no man may boast. (Eph 2:5,8,9) I'm not familiar with the Mormon "burning in the bosom".



How does this work with Jesus' words that He would confess us before the Father if we confess Him before man. (Matt. 10:38, Lk 12:8) Why would He need to confess us if we're already in the book? And why would other scriptures indicate that one could be "blotted out" of that book.

Ex: Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Couldn't the book just be a book of everyone who ever has life?
Peace,
Eve

If you look at the context of the passages from Mt 10 and Lu 12 you find Christ is making reference to Judgment Day. I'm not sure how you are defining "confess" before My Father, but what the word means - to assent i.e. covenant, acknowledge:--con- (pro-)fess, confession is made, give thanks, promise. Christ will not be making them known unto the Father for the first time, but rather making good on His covenant promise.

Mt 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mt 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mt 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mt 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Lu 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
Lu 12:3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
Lu 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Lu 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Lu 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
Lu 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Lu 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Lu 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

On the Day of Judgment Christ will present the Church victorious unto the Father.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Mt 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Eve, you must read Rev 3 in context. This passage is not a threat to those who overcome it is a sure promise. This is another promise to overcomers/believers that at the Judgment Christ will confess (to assent i.e. covenant, acknowledge:--con- (pro-)fess, confession is made, give thanks, promise) his name before the Father. These are words of comfort that overcomers will NOT be blotted out of His book. They have His promise!

Re 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Re 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Re 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Re 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Re 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

There are more book(s) in heaven beside the Book of Life. The dead; i.e. those who remain in unbelief will be judged according to what is written in the book(s). But the Book of Life is a scroll where only the names of those who enter into everlasting life are written.

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Eve, we will be spending the thanksgiving week with family, so I won't be able to contribute anymore to our discussion until weeks end. I'll check back to see if there is anything more you would like to discuss. Have a wonderful thanksgiving.

May God Richly Bless You and Yours,
RW

kenrank
Nov 24th 2008, 06:22 AM
I would like to go back to the first post in this thread. Two quick points though. First, God doesn't change, he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Commands given even 4000 years ago and called everlasting, must still be everlasting. Second, no Apostolic writing can or does contradict the Tanach. (OT)

The Galations verses here, I think, are misunderstood. While I love the KJV and use it as much as always, I also have come to appreciate The Scriptures, and use it for these posts because it is simply clearer.

Gal 3:17 Now this I say, Torah, that came four hundred and thirty years later, does not annul a covenant previously confirmed by Elohim in Messiah, so as to do away with the promise.


>> The above verse is clear that the promise is not done away with by Torah.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance is by Torah, it is no longer by promise, but Elohim gave it to Aḇraham through a promise.

>> Many take this to say Torah conflicts with the promise. However, all it is saying is that the inheritence is NOT by Torah, but by the promise YHWH gave to Abraham.

Gal 3:21 Is the Torah then against the promises of Elohim? Let it not be! For if a law had been given that was able to make alive, truly righteousness would have been by Torah.


>> Here it clearly states that the Torah is not against the promise. It points out that Torah alone can't make righteous. No works save...Adam sinned and the result was death. Sin = Death. The opposite had to happen...only one without sin, who lived Torah perfectly could undo the damage of Adam's sin. Messiah did this...born without sin, lived without sin...this defeated the penalty of sin. This "fulfilled the Law." But it did not do away with that which defines sin.

Gal 3:24 Therefore the Torah became our trainer unto Messiah, in order to be declared right by belief.
Gal 3:25 And after belief has come, we are no longer under a trainer.


The word for schoolmaster in the KJV is paidagōgos which can mean schoolmaster, trainer, teacher. A teacher teaches, and what is taught does not disappear when the teacher leaves. You still know how to count, and you will never forget, despite no longer having the teacher. Messiah did not come to destroy the Law, he came to fulfill it. These are his words on Torah:

Mat 5:17Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete.


>> Where do we get the notion that the Law was nailed to his cross when his own words declare this wasn't why he came? The only scripture using any form of nailing anything to the cross was Paul in Col. 2 where the condemnation or death (sin) was nailed to the cross. Here is more of what Messiah said about the now obsolete (?) Law:

Mat 5:18 "For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done


>> Is the earth still here? If it is, so must be the Law.


Mat 5:19 "Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.


>> So if we do and teach others the Law, we are called great in the Kingdom, and if we break or teach against the Law, we are called the Least?


Mat 5:20"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the reign of the heavens." (Kingdom of God)


>> He rebukes the scribes and Pharisees often, but not for keeping the law. Instead, he rebuked them for adding to them and taking away from them. They made the Law a burden, King David called it a delight. (Ps. 119:77) There is a misunderstanding concerning the Law. No, it does not save, we are saved by grace through faith and not of anything we can do. But when we become a child of God, he expects our obedience. Paul is quoted often as teaching against keeping the laws of God, but that would be in complete contradiction to three things.


1. The everlasting Law itself
2. The words of Messiah who said he didn't come to destroy the law
3. Pauls own words.


When Paul was arrested for teaching against the Law of Moses ( he was arrested at the end of the time of purification, his taking the vow of a Nazirite as seen in Numbers 6), but Paul denied "ever" teaching against Torah. I can share many verses where Paul is seen keeping aspects of the Law, including him saying to continue keeping the Feast of Passover.


The gospel is this:


Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Above is what Messiah preached. We are to repent, turn away from our ungodly ways, and turn back to His ways, for the Kingdom is at hand. Seeing he was so adament about the Law (God's will for His people, that which defines what he does and doesn't expect of us) still being here and not destroyed...maybe as a people, we Christians should take a second look at all of this.

Peace and blessings.
Ken

kenrank
Nov 24th 2008, 03:45 PM
I would like to add to what I shared before. Not wanting to write too much, I left too many holes.

We all know the phrase "under the law." Paul says we are not under the law. Many take that to mean the Law is dead and gone, nailed to the cross, not applicable to today...that's is not what he is saying!

Let me give you an example using modern terms. Let's say I get pulled over for doing 60mph in a 45. I am guilty under the law. However, the officer for whatever reason decides to cut me a break and doesn't write me a ticket, he "pardons" me from the penalty.

In scipture, "under the law" is an idiomatic phrase. When one sins or transgresses the law, he will be judged according to the tenants of the Law. That is what "under the law" means. When Yahushua (Jesus) was resurrected, he gained the right to perfect all of creation, and everyone or anyone in it.

We WERE "under the law" (tried and convicted) but have been set free of eternal condemnation. (pardoned) A pardon is the removal of the judgement, not the abrogation of the legal edict. In other words, the penalty for my not being upright before the law has been removed, but the law is still in place.

When the officer pardoned me on the spot, he removed the penalty I would have faced. (probably a fine) However, the speeding laws are still in place. Many Christians don't understand Paul when he said, "we are not under the law but under grace." Indeed, we are under grace and NOT under the law....we have been pardoned...but again, but that doesn't abrogate the law itself. We cannot go forth and kill, steal, lie, or serve other gods.

That is the direction we must take if we believe the law is gone. The law defined what sin is, and without it, we have lawlessness...something scripture said we have have in the latter days. If there is no law, then nobody can say we can't steal or lie. Yes, I know, Yahushua said there are two great commands, love God and neighbor. But he also said that "on these two hang ALL the law and the prophets." How so? If we love God we will serve no other, we will not make graven images and bow to them. If we love God we will not take his name in vain, (*) and will rest as he did from his works. Likewise, if we love our neighbor, we will not steal from him, kill him, covet his new John Deere lawn Tractor, nor take his wife. This is what all the Law and prophets hanging on these two commands means. God created these laws and called them everlasting...to think they were changed later means either God DOES change or everlasting doesn't mean everlasting...or both.

(*) - I have been studying taking God's name in vain. Some believe it is saying God ___. But since "God" is not His name but a title, that makes little sense. Some believe just saying it is taking it in vain...which is why you see people calling him HaShem (the name) or writing it like this: G_d. This is not correct either. Others think it has to be "said" a certain way, pronounced properly, or it is taken in vain. I can share many verses that show that taking his name in vain comes from NOT being obediant. His name represents his character, his attributes, and his authority. His NAME is on His commands...and when we are disobediant to them, we take his name in vain.

Sorry for the length of these two posts.
Ken