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Mysteryman
Nov 11th 2008, 04:51 PM
In I Corinth. 4:1 Paul talks about the "mysteries" and him being a minister of Christ and a steward of the mysteries of God.

I would like to start a discussion on the mysteries, if anyone is interested.

So please let me know, and we can beging this discussion

God Bless - Love IN Christ - M M

Rullion Green
Nov 11th 2008, 05:24 PM
Jump in i'm sure you will get responses :)

Welcome to the board

Mysteryman
Nov 11th 2008, 05:53 PM
In I Corinth. 4:1 Paul talks about the "mysteries" and him being a minister of Christ and a steward of the mysteries of God.

I would like to start a discussion on the mysteries, if anyone is interested.

So please let me know, and we can beging this discussion

God Bless - Love IN Christ - M M

God made the heavens and the earth

God made two great lights, one to rule the day and the other to rule the night

First Adam - Last Adam

Old covenant - New covenant

Romans 1:20 tells us, that if we look at the things God made, we can see or understand the things that are unseen

Lars777
Nov 11th 2008, 06:08 PM
There is the "mystery of the kingdom of God," (Mark 4:11 KJV). How often that is mentioned in Scripture. What does it mean? Well, it means an understanding of God at work in history, how he is working through the events of our day and of the days of the past and how he uses these events that fill the pages of our newspapers to carry out his purposes.

It is the business of a minister of Christ to unfold that to people, and to help them to understand the events the world interprets on other grounds, but which God is intending to use in a quite different way in history and in their lives.

That is the business of a minister of Christ, an under-rower of Christ, a steward of the mysteries of God. There is the "mystery of iniquity" (2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV), of lawlessness.

This is the explanation we desperately need to be reminded of continually, of why we are never able to make any progress when it comes to solving human dilemmas -- why every generation without exception repeats the struggle, problems and difficulties of the previous generation.

Isn't that amazing? We do not have instinct to guide us as the animals do, and we never seem to learn from the past. As the philosopher Hegel put it, "History teaches us that history teaches us nothing." That is why we wrestle endlessly, over and over again, with the same basic struggles and problems. There is no advance. Why?

Because of the mystery of lawlessness, that evil, invisible panoply of remarkable beings, forces that are constantly twisting and distorting the thinking of men.

They lead us down garden paths into error and illusion and cause us to see things out of proportion and out of relationship with reality. We assume that something is true when it is not and act on that basis.

That is why we get mixed up all the time. You will never understand that if you do not understand the mystery of lawlessness. Then there is the counteraction to that -- the "mystery of godliness," (1 Timothy 3:16 KJV). This is the remarkable secret that God has provided by which a Christian is enabled to live right in the midst of the pressures of the world with all of its illusion and all of its danger, not to run away from it but to refuse to conform to it and do so in a loving, gracious way.

What is the secret? It is the secret of an imparted life -- "Christ in you, the hope of glory," (Colossians 1:27b RSV). Christ in you, available to you -- his life, his wisdom, his strength, his power to act available to you -- to enable you to do what you do not think you can do at the moment, but, when you choose to do, you find you have the strength to perform.

That is the mystery of godliness, the most life-transforming doctrine that has ever been set before man, radical in its effect. Then there is the "mystery of the church" (Ephesians 3:1-6), that strange new society that God is building which is to be a demonstration of a totally different life style before a watching world, and which is to repel the impact of the world upon it, and, instead, be an impact upon the world around to change it.

That is a mystery. Those who are called to teach this and preach this in a church congregation are stewards of that mystery, entrusted with it to set it out and to help people to face the facts of life without fear and favor so that all can experience both the ecstasy and the agony of Christian experience.

Mysteryman
Nov 11th 2008, 07:06 PM
The whole Word of God is a mirror image of itself - one the literal, the other the spiritual

Rullion Green
Nov 11th 2008, 07:37 PM
The whole Word of God is a mirror image of itself - one the literal, the other the spiritual

Sounds interesting, any scripture examples we can have a look at ?

Zack702
Nov 11th 2008, 07:50 PM
As time went on the more evident it was that the prophecies were becoming true. Except that they became true in ways people did not imagine. That is why people say God works in mysterious ways. And also the reason why many people debate over them.

It is the reason why the Jews at that time were against Paul. Because it was a prophecy against them at that time to be that way.

After Jesus was resurrected new things were revealed to our hearts. And many people such as Paul began to shine there candle and took away its covering.

However more specificly the mysteries of God that Paul is talking about is perhaps that the spirit that God gives us is greater than any mystery.

Mysteryman
Nov 11th 2008, 07:55 PM
Sounds interesting, any scripture examples we can have a look at ?

Here is an example to start with:

One is always the literal

The other is always the spiritual

Circimcision:

On the eight day the male child was literally circumcised

We who are IN Christ - Colossians 2:11 - "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ" = Spiritual

Of course there are many , many , many more, since the "whole" Word of God is a mirror image of itself

There is a principle within the Word of God, that , "the first shall be last --and the last first" < split the statement in half, and notice that the second half of the statement is a mirror image of the first half.

Put your hands together like in prayer. Palms together.

Now open them up , palms up - flat.

Your thumb is first on your left hand, and is last on your right hand. Thus, your right hand is a mirror image of your left hand.

Our bodies are made with the mysteries of God built right into our bodies.

So is it with the Word of God.

Love IN Christ - M M

Rullion Green
Nov 11th 2008, 08:13 PM
Ahh i thought your were alluding to the mystery that was hiddin in the OT namley the Church, and The Gospel.

deep insight there i see parallels running throughout the bible that work on different levels and could be describedas both literal and spiritual.
interesting post :)

Teke
Nov 11th 2008, 10:47 PM
The whole Word of God is a mirror image of itself - one the literal, the other the spiritual

I don't know about "mirror images". There is the uncreated God (being Spirit) which communes (common unity) to the created beings, us.

Because we don't fully understand this except through our experience of God, it is a mystery to us. Just as the mysteries of baptism, communion, marriage etc. are a mystery.

Mysteryman
Nov 11th 2008, 11:02 PM
Mysteries that are hidden are mysteries.

God never asks us to understand a hidden mystery.

That is why he reveals mysteries.

The Mystery was hidden in God. That Christ would be the head of the body of Christ. And that IN Christ there is neither jew nor gentile, nor male nor female, nor bond nor free, but all one IN Christ.

Now that the Mystery has been revealed, it no longer is a mystery. Even though we refernce it as "The Mystery".

The mysteries, that God is a God of two of everything, "was" hidden within the Word of God. Paul used them within his spoken, then written Word.

Paul tells us, that we are to look in a glass darkly. This glass darkly is a mirror. We never knew it , until Paul said it. Yet , many today do not look at what is written. Well, some do, and some do not.

In the book of Rev. , we know that this book is a "revealing". The information given in the book of Revelation is "now revealed".. But before God revealed this information unto John, it was "hidden". Thus it was a "mystery".

For instance - "I am Alpha and Omega"

"The first and the Last"

"The beginning and the end"

If you read chapter one, it reveals to us, that the ....

1. The 7 candle sticks - are

2. The 7 churches

Notice how God uses "two" - One to represent the other.

That is because, the book of Revelation is "hidden" within mysteries.

Now we need to look for the "two" , which shows us that one represents the other. And by the way, this might be a little to soon to get deep into the book of Revelation.

Just trying to make a point early within this conversation.

Love IN Christ - M M

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 12th 2008, 12:32 PM
That's one of the mysteries of GOD :agree: with that...


Mysteries that are hidden are mysteries.

God never asks us to understand a hidden mystery.

That is why he reveals mysteries.

The Mystery was hidden in God. That Christ would be the head of the body of Christ. And that IN Christ there is neither jew nor gentile, nor male nor female, nor bond nor free, but all one IN Christ.

Now that the Mystery has been revealed, it no longer is a mystery. Even though we refernce it as "The Mystery".

The mysteries, that God is a God of two of everything, "was" hidden within the Word of God. Paul used them within his spoken, then written Word.

Paul tells us, that we are to look in a glass darkly. This glass darkly is a mirror. We never knew it , until Paul said it. Yet , many today do not look at what is written. Well, some do, and some do not.

In the book of Rev. , we know that this book is a "revealing". The information given in the book of Revelation is "now revealed".. But before God revealed this information unto John, it was "hidden". Thus it was a "mystery".

For instance - "I am Alpha and Omega"

"The first and the Last"

"The beginning and the end"

If you read chapter one, it reveals to us, that the ....

1. The 7 candle sticks - are

2. The 7 churches

Notice how God uses "two" - One to represent the other.

That is because, the book of Revelation is "hidden" within mysteries.

Now we need to look for the "two" , which shows us that one represents the other. And by the way, this might be a little to soon to get deep into the book of Revelation.

Just trying to make a point early within this conversation.

Love IN Christ - M M

Teke
Nov 12th 2008, 01:10 PM
Mysteryman, you may want to give some other scriptures. The two you've referenced from in 1 Cor. (4:1, 13:12) are on stewardship in relation to gifts and love, love being the eternal one of the two. :)

joztok
Nov 12th 2008, 02:14 PM
Woah! Woah! Woah! Back on topic!
Let's keep the topic on Paul and the mysteries that were given to him to reveal to the church. As Mysteryman said:


In I Corinth. 4:1 Paul talks about the "mysteries" and him being a minister of Christ and a steward of the mysteries of God.I would like to start a discussion on the mysteries, if anyone is interested. So please let me know, and we can beging this discussion
God Bless - Love IN Christ - M M

So I'll start with some of the mysteries he reveals:

Mystery 1: Israel Blinded til the time of Gentiles is Fulfilled

Romans 11:25-27For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."


Mystery 2: Jesus Christ is the Mystery of God Revealed From Ages Past

Romans 16:25-27 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.


Mystery 3: Foreknowledge of Future Resurrection Life and Transformation

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory."O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?


Mystery 4: Mystery and Foresight of Will God's Will Revealed through Christ and the Holy Spirit

Ephesians 1:7-14 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.


Mystery 5: The Mystery of Marriage Revealed as Christ's Relationship With Creation

Ephesians 5:22-33 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body.
FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.
This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.


Mystery 2 & 4 Revealed spoken again: Mystery and Foresight of Will God's Will Revealed through Christ and the Holy Spirit

Ephesians 3:1-9 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-- if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.
To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;


These are the main mysteries Paul goes on about. He repeats 1, 2 & 4 quite a lot. Mystery 5 on marriage is incredibly insightful in light of what God and Adam spoke to Eve in the garden.

Look at what Adam said of Eve and check out the following:

Genesis 2:23-25 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman, for she was taken out of man."
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

Jesus taught us to take the bread and wine. We are his body. We partake in his life. We are taken out from the earth and made alive in Christ, the Second Adam. We are one flesh. Just as Christ was vulnerable in His love for us, so too can we be vulnerable (naked), in Him and not be ashamed anymore, for he too is more like us then we realise.

Genesis 3:15-16 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her Offspring; He will bruise and tread your head underfoot, and you will lie in wait and bruise His heel.
To the woman He said, I will greatly multiply your grief and your suffering in pregnancy and the pangs of childbearing; with spasms of distress you will bring forth children. Yet your desire and craving will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.

We too, as the church, find enmity with the serpent. In the midst of our enmity with the serpent now though, He will be bruised.
We too, as the church, will be in labor with creation, birthing with the Spirit the Sons and Daughters of God for the Kingdom. Our griefs and sufferings will multiply and the pangs of childbearing with spasms of distress will bring forth God's children/disciples. Yet our desire and cravings when pain strikes us will be for our husband, our Lord Jesus Christ and He will indeed rule over us.

Genesis 3:20 The man called his wife's name Eve [life spring], because she was the mother of all the living.

Just how the church is birthing and nurturing those now ALIVE in Christ. This is why Paul says "This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church."


I hope this blesses you!
Joztok

joztok
Nov 12th 2008, 02:27 PM
Here is an example to start with:

One is always the literal

The other is always the spiritual

Circimcision:

On the eight day the male child was literally circumcised

We who are IN Christ - Colossians 2:11 - "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ" = Spiritual

Of course there are many , many , many more, since the "whole" Word of God is a mirror image of itself

There is a principle within the Word of God, that , "the first shall be last --and the last first" < split the statement in half, and notice that the second half of the statement is a mirror image of the first half.

Put your hands together like in prayer. Palms together.

Now open them up , palms up - flat.

Your thumb is first on your left hand, and is last on your right hand. Thus, your right hand is a mirror image of your left hand.

Our bodies are made with the mysteries of God built right into our bodies.

So is it with the Word of God.

Love IN Christ - M M

Hmm... Interesting. But I think it is much more then that. I would have said on the eighth day the male child was physically circumcised. Circumcision can be talked about literally. We can speak about 'circumcision' metaphorically to describe what the Spirit has done to us spiritually at conversion.

You drew some nice points from your mirror-palm and mirror-body diagram, but once again, through examining the scriptures, there is much more then scripture 'mirroring' itself.

The person of Jesus Christ is revealed through metaphor, parable, images, sculpture, art, design, story, song, poetry, figures, types, symbolism, prophecy, ritual, the creation, the heavens, the church, people, nations, angelic hosts, spirits, demons (their confessions of Him), etc.

Mysteryman
Nov 12th 2008, 03:31 PM
Next lets look at two verses of scripture:

John 3:12

and

Romans 1:20

Mysteryman
Nov 12th 2008, 03:41 PM
When talking about the "Revealed Mysery" , which is the - "Last Adam". Paul uses the first Adam as an example within his explanations.

The first Adam was literal - the Last Adam was spiritual.

The body of Christ is the wife to Christ -- "AS" - the first woman was the wife "of" the first man Adam.

The same holds true, when Paul talks about being circumcised made with the circumcison made without hands. < This is the spiritual < Covenant < New

There was a literal circumcision - Covenant < Old

RogerW
Nov 12th 2008, 04:02 PM
When talking about the "Revealed Mysery" , which is the - "Last Adam". Paul uses the first Adam as an example within his explanations.

The first Adam was literal - the Last Adam was spiritual.

The body of Christ is the wife to Christ -- "AS" - the first woman was the wife "of" the first man Adam.

The same holds true, when Paul talks about being circumcised made with the circumcison made without hands. < This is the spiritual < Covenant < New

There was a literal circumcision - Covenant < Old

Greetings Mysteryman,

Would you say mirrored or reflected image of the same Covenant of Redemption? In other words the old mirrors (some say conceals) what the new makes manifest (the new reveals), but both one and the same?

Many Blessings,
RW

theBelovedDisciple
Nov 12th 2008, 04:29 PM
Paul brought to 'light' and revealed the 'mystery' that Gentiles were also able to OBTAIN the Promises of God.... not only the Jews but Gentiles also...

The Gentiles could 'inherit' the Promises of God .. thru Faith In Christ Jesus..... If Salvation was only for the "Jew"... then I would be unsaved today and so would many other Gentiles who are 'born again'... those who have placed their Trust and Faith in the Completed Work of Jesus the Christ on that bloody tree.....

Jesus foreshadowed that Promise by going about and doing good and healing all those that were oppressed of the devil... He conversed, ate and drank with these people, healed and set free Jews and Gentiles.. When He did these things to the Gentiles.. this infuriated the Religous Leaders of His time... 'they' were the 'chosen' ones of God.. How could He associate with 'sinners'...

This activity by Him during His ministry also foreshawdowed the coming Marriage Supper of the Lamb.. for His Bride.. the True Body of Christ made up of Jews and Gentiles.. those who have placed their Trust and Faith In Jesus Christ... Jesus made it clear... Jews and Gentiles are 'invited' to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb....

Do you have your Invitation?

Mysteryman
Nov 12th 2008, 04:32 PM
Greetings Mysteryman,

Would you say mirrored or reflected image of the same Covenant of Redemption? In other words the old mirrors (some say conceals) what the new makes manifest (the new reveals), but both one and the same?

Many Blessings,
RW
I would say yes to your question. But as long as one is understanding your question correctly.

By "faith" they became circumcised. < Old covenant

By "faith" we "believe" that we are cleansed from the sin of the flesh, = all unrighteousness. < New covenant

Does this anwer you question ?

Love IN Christ - M M

RogerW
Nov 12th 2008, 04:47 PM
I would say yes to your question. But as long as one is understanding your question correctly.

By "faith" they became circumcised. < Old covenant

By "faith" we "believe" that we are cleansed from the sin of the flesh, = all unrighteousness. < New covenant

Does this anwer you question ?

Love IN Christ - M M

Hi Mysteryman,

Yes, I think you get the gist of my question. Circumcision in the old was given to eight day old males who had no faith. So are you speaking of what that physical circumcision symbolized? If you are, is the faith or cleansing from sin found in the new covenant the same the symbolism in the old mirrored? Just trying to point to the One Eternal Covenant found under both the old and new covenant in time, because I believe the mystery Scripture speaks of is bound in the One Covenant. Am I making any sense?

Many Blessings,
RW

Thaddaeus
Nov 12th 2008, 04:50 PM
:hmm:
Mystery
1. A profound secret; something wholly unknown or something kept cautiously concealed, and therefore exciting curiosity or wonder; such as the mystery of the man with the iron mask in France.

Isa 55:8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. Isa 55:9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

here the mystery starts something unknown "why things happen, why God allows things to happen, or why things occurs in scripture. But a mystery can be solved so we dig, we use clues, we cross reference scriptures, we pray, we fast. it is a way God can get us attracted to His Word It is also referred to as a Hidden treasure

Pr 2:1My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;Pr 2:2So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;Pr 2:3Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;Pr 2:4If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;


It didn't say it was an unsolved mystery though

Mt 13:11 (http://bibleforums.org/mt+13:11)He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to KNOW the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

what seperates us from the world? His Spirit that dwells within!


Joh 16:7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.Joh 16:8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:Joh 16:9Of sin, because they believe not on me;Joh 16:10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;Joh 16:11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.Joh 16:12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.Joh 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.Joh 16:14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.Joh 16:15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.


I would loved to explain why some will never know the mysteries but would start another thread by opening that up. But I will guide you in this way

Eph 4:11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;Eph 4:12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:Eph 4:13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Christ gave us the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost works through eph 4:11,
but man has said we don't need the Holy Ghost for we have His Word, but when will it be when we come in unity of the faith, the Word has not done this for man has made it an individual interpretation( we have changed the truth into a lie). The Holy Ghost( which cannot lie) working through the gifts God gave the Church: apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers. see we have kept three gifts; evanangelists, pastors, and teachers, but we know better what we need than God so we don't need the Phophets and the Apostles any more. why keep three? either keep all 5 or else throw all five away. well,if you only have part of the clues or part of the treasure map we may not ever solve the mystery or find the treasure


1jo 2:27 (http://bibleforums.org/1jo+2:27)
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing TEACHETH you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Who abideth in us the Holy Ghost? who suppose to teach us man or the Holy Ghost though man? you really think the Holy Ghost, who is God, has told 100 different denominations a 100 different ways. you really think that God has told us to come together here in debate or come together in accordance to His Word. The Mystery is understanding how God works not how man thinks He works, didn't mean to start another thread but felt this was important clue in the mystery.

Mysteryman
Nov 12th 2008, 05:12 PM
Hi Mysteryman,

Yes, I think you get the gist of my question. Circumcision in the old was given to eight day old males who had no faith. So are you speaking of what that physical circumcision symbolized? If you are, is the faith or cleansing from sin found in the new covenant the same the symbolism in the old mirrored? Just trying to point to the One Eternal Covenant found under both the old and new covenant in time, because I believe the mystery Scripture speaks of is bound in the One Covenant. Am I making any sense?

Many Blessings,
RW
Hi RW

I do my best to read what people say (write) with a grain of salt, so I am sure we understand one another.

Yes, the people who lived in the OT, were cleansed also by the blood of Christ. As long as they didn't commit an unforgiveable sin. Be them of Israel or other nations. But the circumcision made without hands is specifically speaking unto Christians. Christians set the example for others to follow. Not only do we speak the truth, but we are to live the truth ,as an example for others to follow.

The Word of God tells us, that many are called, but few are chosen. I believe the scriptures are telling us, that many will follow our example of living in righteousness. We who are called and chosen, are the one's who are to speak truth and set the example for others to follow.

Love IN Christ - Christ IN - M M

Mysteryman
Nov 12th 2008, 05:17 PM
If we loose our "focus" upon what the Word of God tells us, then we loose "focus" on "how" to receive the truth.

My reason for starting this thread, is to "focus" on what it tells us in John 3:12 and Romans 1:20

Many claim to know and understand the spiritual, but start guessing what the spiritual is saying within the scriptures, because they refused to look at the things that God made.

This is what I want to "focus" upon !

Love IN Christ - Christ IN - M M

Teke
Nov 12th 2008, 09:31 PM
If we loose our "focus" upon what the Word of God tells us, then we loose "focus" on "how" to receive the truth.

My reason for starting this thread, is to "focus" on what it tells us in John 3:12 and Romans 1:20

Many claim to know and understand the spiritual, but start guessing what the spiritual is saying within the scriptures, because they refused to look at the things that God made.

This is what I want to "focus" upon !

Love IN Christ - Christ IN - M M

Hmmm...John 3:12 is a difficult passage. I believe it relates the 'earthly things' as being the mystery of new birth through baptism (v5) and 'heavenly things' as being the eternal generation of the Son from the Father (v13). The new birth is an incomparable spiritual gift, but compared to Christ's eternal birth from the Father, it is earthly.

Romans 1:20 is about 'natural revelation', that is God's energy ("power" v20) and His transcendence (Godhead), revealed through the order of the universe and in humanity. But all freely thwart the truth. In their hardness of heart, the ungodly despise the goodness of God revealed in creation. They refuse to repent.

Mysteryman
Nov 13th 2008, 02:33 PM
We are to look at the things that God made to see the unseen things which are spiritual.

God made the first Adam

The mirror image of this literal man is the spiritual - The Last Adam

Teke
Nov 13th 2008, 05:30 PM
We are to look at the things that God made to see the unseen things which are spiritual.

Can you give an example to further explain?


God made the first Adam

Yes, God created Adam, Adam was not "begotten".


The mirror image of this literal man is the spiritual - The Last Adam

Jesus was fully a human man. Scripture makes no difference between His human nature and ours. As it was God's plan from the beginning to assume our humanity to Himself. Thereby is our communion fully with Him.

Scripture says, the first Adam was "earthly", the last Adam was "spiritual". This is best related in the events of their lives which is a testimony to them both. The first Adam was earthly, in that he was concerned with things pertaining to the earth ie. Eve. The last Adam, Jesus, was concerned with the Spirit, God, and spiritual things.
Both were uncreated, meaning they were not begotten by anyone but God whom Himself is uncreated. Another way of saying this is, they were brought forth, or manifested, by God. First being the image, the last being the Word manifested in the image.

The image without the Word, would be an incomplete image. Just as we are not complete without God.

Zack702
Nov 13th 2008, 07:07 PM
We are to look at the things that God made to see the unseen things which are spiritual.

God made the first Adam

The mirror image of this literal man is the spiritual - The Last Adam

Here is a mirror mystery...
There is no cloud of darkness within the light. Darkness cannot dwell with light.
When darkness reveals what it hides then it can enter the light.
And the light scatters the residue of the darkness as you get closer to the source.

In John 3 it says
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Adam took the fruit that he was to leave. And they hid themselves. Yet the Lord called out to him and said where are you Adam. And Adam and Eve revealed thereselves by saying we are ashamed.
And so if we have done something that we shouldn't have doesn't that make us similar in a way? At least in this manner we are somewhat similar.

Emanate
Nov 13th 2008, 07:17 PM
Yes, I think you get the gist of my question. Circumcision in the old was given to eight day old males who had no faith.
Many Blessings,
RW


Paul called circumcision the seal of justification by faith.

Mysteryman
Nov 13th 2008, 07:39 PM
There are many more mysteries within the Word of God. But the most simple to understand is that God is a God of two of everything. One the literal, the other the spiritual.

First Adam - literal < Neither Jew nor gentile

Last Adam - Figurative - Spiritual - Those IN Christ - Christ as the head of the body, and IN Christ there is neither jew nor gentile, but all one in Christ.

First Adam - Neither bond nor free

Last Adam - Neither bond nor free

First Adam - Neither circumcison, nor uncircumcison

Last Adam - Neither circimcison nor uncircumcison availeth anything, but faith which worketh by love

Love IN Christ - M M

tgallison
Nov 13th 2008, 07:41 PM
[QUOTE] Yes, the people who lived in the OT, were cleansed also by the blood of Christ. As long as they didn't commit an unforgiveable sin. Be them of Israel or other nations. But the circumcision made without hands is specifically speaking unto Christians. Christians set the example for others to follow. Not only do we speak the truth, but we are to live the truth ,as an example for others to follow.

Do you agree that the circumcision made without hands applies spiritually to the Old Testament as well as the New Testament?

Mysteryman
Nov 13th 2008, 08:05 PM
[quote=Mysteryman;1864734]



Do you agree that the circumcision made without hands applies spiritually to the Old Testament as well as the New Testament?

I would say yes, and I will use these verses of scripture as a reference that they were looking towards the future with the promises that were made.

I Corinthians 10:4

Hebrews 11:13 - "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth"

Emanate
Nov 13th 2008, 08:45 PM
[quote=Mysteryman;1864734]
Do you agree that the circumcision made without hands applies spiritually to the Old Testament as well as the New Testament?


Circumcision of the heart is indeed a Torah principle.

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Y'shua provided for us, this circumcision by writing the Torah of YHWH onto our hearts.

Teke
Nov 14th 2008, 01:45 AM
Paul called circumcision the seal of justification by faith.

What portion of scripture are you referring to?

Mysteryman
Nov 14th 2008, 11:38 AM
We are getting slightly off topic here.

The "mysteries" were hidden within the Word of God, "as" the "Revealed Mystery" was as well. Paul told us, that the "hidden Mystery" was not longer hidden, but now "Revealed".

In like manner, that is what I am trying to explain. Not the Revealed Mystery,as it has already been revealed.

I am talking about the "mysteries".

God is a God of two of everything, and one is the literal and the other is the spiritual , hidden behind a figure of speech.

There are however certian hidden pieces of information about the Revealed Mystery, that we can attain by knowing the "mysteries".

For instance, when one says that they are "born again". What kind of an explanation would you give for that phrase ?

Would you give your so called spiritual understanding, which might lack knowledge ? Or would you give your spiritual background of knowledge which might come from a certain denomination or TV evangilist ?

Or would you be able to give a "full" explanation from the scriptures, "using" the tools that God has told us to use ?

If you have forgotten what those tools were. Let me remind you once again.

Romans 1:20 & John 3:12

So, what is a literal "birth" like ? Water then blood, correct ?

That is the literal.

So what is the Spiritual ?

I will not give the answer at this time. Lets see if you can use the tools, that you look through a glass darkly. (mirror image)

IN Christ - M M

Zack702
Nov 14th 2008, 01:00 PM
God is a God of two of everything, and one is the literal and the other is the spiritual , hidden behind a figure of speech.

For instance, when one says that they are "born again". What kind of an explanation would you give for that phrase ?

Would you give your so called spiritual understanding, which might lack knowledge ? Or would you give your spiritual background of knowledge which might come from a certain denomination or TV evangilist ?

Or would you be able to give a "full" explanation from the scriptures, "using" the tools that God has told us to use ?


It is much better to use the things that God has plainly given us than hidden things that we ourselves figure it out.

Here is a mystery that is revealed.
There is only one God and God is just, loving and righteous.

The only detail I think we really need is that we must seek the one God who is just, loving and righteous. God has spent thousands of years trying to get us to take hold of these characteristics. Many wars and many times of suffering he has endured for us to show us the truth. While many were all against it being very wicked and worshiping idols and nature and being very ignorant because of it. Yet God showed us but a little truth about him and his spirit and that little truth settled into the hearts of prophets and scribes who both reasoned with it and struggled against it.

Veretax
Nov 14th 2008, 02:09 PM
:hmm:
Mystery
1. A profound secret; something wholly unknown or something kept cautiously concealed, and therefore exciting curiosity or wonder; such as the mystery of the man with the iron mask in France.

Isa 55:8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. Isa 55:9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

here the mystery starts something unknown "why things happen, why God allows things to happen, or why things occurs in scripture. But a mystery can be solved so we dig, we use clues, we cross reference scriptures, we pray, we fast. it is a way God can get us attracted to His Word It is also referred to as a Hidden treasure

Pr 2:1My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;Pr 2:2So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;Pr 2:3Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;Pr 2:4If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;


It didn't say it was an unsolved mystery though

Mt 13:11 (http://bibleforums.org/mt+13:11)He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to KNOW the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

what seperates us from the world? His Spirit that dwells within!


Joh 16:7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.Joh 16:8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:Joh 16:9Of sin, because they believe not on me;Joh 16:10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;Joh 16:11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.Joh 16:12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.Joh 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.Joh 16:14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.Joh 16:15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.


I would loved to explain why some will never know the mysteries but would start another thread by opening that up. But I will guide you in this way

Eph 4:11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;Eph 4:12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:Eph 4:13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Christ gave us the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost works through eph 4:11,
but man has said we don't need the Holy Ghost for we have His Word, but when will it be when we come in unity of the faith, the Word has not done this for man has made it an individual interpretation( we have changed the truth into a lie). The Holy Ghost( which cannot lie) working through the gifts God gave the Church: apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers. see we have kept three gifts; evanangelists, pastors, and teachers, but we know better what we need than God so we don't need the Phophets and the Apostles any more. why keep three? either keep all 5 or else throw all five away. well,if you only have part of the clues or part of the treasure map we may not ever solve the mystery or find the treasure


1jo 2:27 (http://bibleforums.org/1jo+2:27)
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing TEACHETH you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Who abideth in us the Holy Ghost? who suppose to teach us man or the Holy Ghost though man? you really think the Holy Ghost, who is God, has told 100 different denominations a 100 different ways. you really think that God has told us to come together here in debate or come together in accordance to His Word. The Mystery is understanding how God works not how man thinks He works, didn't mean to start another thread but felt this was important clue in the mystery.

I have one problem with you saying we've tossed aside some of the offices. First let me deal with Prophecy/prophets:

1 Cor 13:4-13

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. 13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


The bible makes it clear that at some point Prophecy would cease, not that foretelling of the future would stop, but that God would no longer use it as a means to reach his people. In Israel's OT days it was primarily the levites and priests who had access to the Scrolls. The average person did not have easy access to the knowledge of God contained in scripture. Thus God would periodically send prophets to call those who were of the covenant but did not know these things. What is the point of prophecy? for the edification of the body. We do not need new revelation or prophecy because we have the completion of the bible at our disposal. That is what I believe is being referenced when it is said "that which is perfect has come." (Also note that it cites that tongues would cease, why? because Tongues were intended as a sign to the Jews.)


In Isaiah 28, the Day the Lord shall reign is described for Israel, and that the people of Ephraim will be drunk, and the land filthy. That they will have erred with wine and just generally unclean. Then Isaiah says this.

Isaiah 28:9-13
9 "Whom will he teach knowledge? And whom will he make to understand the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just drawn from the breasts? 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little." 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people, 12 To whom He said, "This is the rest with which You may cause the weary to rest," And, "This is the refreshing"; Yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the Lord was to them, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little," That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught.

Again, the concept of a people with a Foreign tongue is meant as a sign for the Jews, not just that they would be conquered, but that God would speak to these foreign people. That is what Tongues were meant for as a gift, as a sign to the Jews, a sign that God's word was opened to those who were not of the nation of Israel.


In Isaiah 33, The jews were present a vision of the future, of the coming future Jersualem (20 Look upon Zion, the city of our appointed feasts; Your eyes will see Jerusalem, a quiet home, A tabernacle that will not be taken down; Not one of its stakes will ever be removed, Nor will any of its cords be broken. ) yet one of the signs given of this time is one of people of obscure speech, beyond their perception, and of a stammering tongue they cannot understand. It was a sign to the Jews.


19 You will not see a fierce people, A people of obscure speech, beyond perception, Of a stammering tongue that you cannot understand.


Also note that early in 1 Cor Paul makes it clear there are diverse gifts, all by on spirit. not everyone has "knowledge" or any of the other gifts.


Now you also mentioned apostles. I ask you who were the apostles? Were they not those who had visibly seen the Resurrected Christ? (even paul?) There were many saved after Pentecost, but how many are named as apostles, not too many. I'd argue that there is no basis by which the office of Apostle is passed down and that ended with Paul in essence. So I hereby dispute your argument that we as Christians simply threw out the gift of prophets or apostles. These were not gifts given by man, but by God, if they are gone they would have to be by God's will. (remember Elijah, when in the mountain he wished to die, but God tolld him there were I think 700 whom have never bowed to the baals that were reserved to him as a remnant, and we know that even after Elijah God brought many other Prophets to his people before and even while they were in captivity in Babylon). So if Apostles or Prophets are ordained by God, the only reason I can find why we do not have them today, is because we have God's word in the canon of scripture now. The apostles and prophets were necessary to reveal the word of the Lord to the people, but we have that word now contained in the beauty that is scripture.


As for denominations, the divisions many are in fact man made, also some are satan's doing. Many churches are divided over minor issues of interpretation, but some are divided over clear doctrinal differences which on one hand could be heresy and another the truth. I do believe however that over time if a church or denomination becomes stagnant, lax in their doctrine, or cold, that the Lord will preserve a remnant, and if that means starting a new 'denom' to preserve the truth, then God certainly can do that. The problem comes in determining which divisions are of man and which are of God. (and it is way to vast a subject to tackle in one post)

BroRog
Nov 14th 2008, 02:23 PM
Just a quick note on

Mt 13:11 (http://bibleforums.org/mt+13:11)He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to KNOW the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

It is important for us to pay attention to whom Jesus is talking. When he says it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries, he refers to his Apostles, not to anyone who reads this passage. And it is important to know that the Apostles already explained these "mysteries" to us in their writings.

I know how much we love a mystery, but with regard to what we need to know to live godly lives, we have all we need. Attend to Peter's words here,

Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

As time is short, best not to play head games with the Bible.

Mysteryman
Nov 14th 2008, 02:42 PM
Actually, the problem in division, is the "lack of kowledge" more so than a "greater knowledge".

Many splits have come from seeing something different. But seeing something different in no way means that they see with a greater spiritual enlightenment.

There are two churches within the Word of God. 1. The building and 2. The body

It is in your lack of knowledge or spiritual insight that determinds your ability to recognize the two churches. They are to opporate as one, but have two specific purposes.

The body is for fellowship, and the building is for knowledge unto the body.

Apostles , Prophets and Jesus Christ who is the chief corner stone is the foundation of truth. Christ as the head of the body, is for fellowship and revelation pertaining to the nine manifestation of the Spirit.

If you read Ephesians 4:10 thru 14 you will notice this.

In the body, we are brothers and sisters in the Lord.

In the building we are "brethren",. In Ephesians 2:19 it deals with the buidling. And it states - "We are no more strangers , but fellow citizens, with the saints. And in verse 20 it tells us what we are built upon. > Apostles and Prophets, and Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone.

As it states in verse 21 - "groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord"
In verse 22 it states - "In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit"

When the Word of God talks about be grounded in truth, it is talking about the "foundation" of the building. The building builds upon truth.

The body builds upon fellowship. They both work together as one.

But you "must" be able to recognize the different aspects of each church.

What are their purpose, set within the scriptures.

Jesus said - "Upon this rock I will build my church" < Notice the word "build". A building. This is not talking about the body. It is talking about the building. Jesus Christ was talking about building truth. Jesus said, that if you destroy this temple , which is his body, that in three days he would build it up again. That is exactly what he did. After being raised from the dead, he built upon the word of God , the truths of the Word. He continued to teach and preach unto a certain small group. Those whom he knew, and those whom he choose.

He was finishing his teaching , just before he ascended into heaven , to sit at the right hand of the Father. He was "building"

Love IN Christ - M M

Teke
Nov 14th 2008, 05:50 PM
Just a quick note on

Mt 13:11 (http://bibleforums.org/mt+13:11)He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to KNOW the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

It is important for us to pay attention to whom Jesus is talking. When he says it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries, he refers to his Apostles, not to anyone who reads this passage. And it is important to know that the Apostles already explained these "mysteries" to us in their writings.

I know how much we love a mystery, but with regard to what we need to know to live godly lives, we have all we need. Attend to Peter's words here,

Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

As time is short, best not to play head games with the Bible.

Yes indeed Bro Rog. It was given to the holy Apostles who in turn passed the teachings on both written and oral.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word meaning oral teachings not written, or our epistle meaning the written teachings.

How does one find this out, by tracing from where the teacher who teaches was taught from. There are records of who the Apostles taught and who those the Apostles taught in turn taught teachings to. There was a time when I thought little of this, until I actually researched it and found it to be true. Albeit, everyone will not be able to receive this truth.

As to "prophets", they too exist still. They are not as many believe future tellers, since the promise has been fulfilled and revealed in Christ, but moral teachers (which is also what the prophets were and lived by) who actually live the life that Jesus called us all to, they also defend the faith's dogma of Christ. Since all of us are not able to live such lives, there are not many prophets. A person would be blessed to meet just one in their life time by chance, unless they sought one out.
There is a good book written by a sociologist who sought one out for answers.

Teke
Nov 14th 2008, 05:59 PM
There are two churches within the Word of God. 1. The building and 2. The body


Mysteryman it looks more and more to me like you are heading into the area of dualism.

1Cr 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Emanate
Nov 15th 2008, 10:32 PM
What portion of scripture are you referring to?


Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: