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Back2Front
Nov 11th 2008, 07:32 PM
Last night I quoted Matthew 24.

My quote was taken directly off Biblegateway.com NIV.


Matthew 24:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:28;&version=31;)

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the vultures be gathered together.



This morning I revisited the site and I happened to pick the KJV. Note the difference:


Matthew 24:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:28;&version=9;)

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


I want to hear all your theories regarding this. Being that this is specifically an 'end times' scripture, and being that the 'end times' scriptures are very symbolic, this seems to be a a black and white difference that completely destroys any chance of inerrancy. It's funny also that it's actually a reflection of other verses within Matthew 24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024;&version=31;) such as verses 4, 23-24, and 26.


I'm sure this has been discussed before but please indulge me.

quiet dove
Nov 11th 2008, 08:07 PM
I think it means the same thing, I could be wrong, but within the context we have flesh eating birds and it is our perception of vultures vs eagles that is confusing here. But the context indicates flesh eating birds either way, and eagles are flesh eating birds it's just we associate vultures being flesh eating birds of the dead.

I don't think it indicates inaccuracy, probably just the original languages have the same word for a big flesh eating bird and the translators chose vultures in one translation and eagles in another.

David Taylor
Nov 11th 2008, 08:08 PM
Last night I quoted Matthew 24.

My quote was taken directly off Biblegateway.com NIV.


Matthew 24:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:28;&version=31;)

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the vultures be gathered together.


This morning I revisited the site and I happened to pick the KJV. Note the difference:


Matthew 24:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:28;&version=9;)

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


I want to hear all your theories regarding this. Being that this is specifically an 'end times' scripture, and being that the 'end times' scriptures are very symbolic, this seems to be a a black and white difference that completely destroys any chance of inerrancy. It's funny also that it's actually a reflection of other verses within Matthew 24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024;&version=31;) such as verses 4, 23-24, and 26.


I'm sure this has been discussed before but please indulge me.

Both vultures and eagles are birds of prey (will eat carrion)...and are used pretty synonymously throughout scriptures.


Greek Aetos-105


5-times in the NT
Mt 24:28"For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagle (Aetos-105) be gathered together.
Lu 17:37 "And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagle (Aetos-105) be gathered together.
Re 4:7 "And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle (Aetos-105).
Re 8:13 "And I looked, and I heard an eagle (Aetos-105) flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe, to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"
Re 12:14 "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle (Aetos-105), that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. "


If you go back to the Greek OT (LXX-Septuagint), you find these additional 27 examples:

Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen all that I have done to the Egyptians, and I took you up as upon eaglesí (Aetos-105) wings, and I brought you near to myself.
Leviticus 11:13 And these are the things which ye shall abhor of birds, and they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle (Aetos-105) and the ossifrage, and the sea-eagle (Aetos-105) .
Deuteronomy 14:12 And these of them ye shall not eat; the eagle (Aetos-105) , and the ossifrage, and the sea-eagle (Aetos-105) ,
Deuteronomy 28:49 The Lord shall bring upon thee a nation from the extremity of the earth, like the swift flying of an eagle (Aetos-105) , a nation whose voice thou shalt not understand;
Deuteronomy 32:11 As an eagle (Aetos-105) would watch over his brood, and yearns over his young, receives them having spread his wings, and takes them up on his back:
2 Samuel 1:23 Saul and Jonathan, the beloved and the beautiful, were not divided: comely were they in their life, and in their death they were not divided: they were swifter than eagles (Aetos-105) , and they were stronger than lions.
Job 9:26 Or again, is there a trace of their path left by ships? or is there one of the flying eagle (Aetos-105) as it seeks its prey?
Job 39:27 And does the eagle (Aetos-105) rise at thy command, and the vulture (Aetos-105) remain sitting over his nest,
Psalms 103:5 who satisfies thy desire with good things: so that thy youth shall be renewed like that of the eagle (Aetos-105) .
Psalms 119:105 Thy law is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my paths.
Proverbs 23:5 If thou shouldest fix thine eye upon him, he will disappear; for wings like an eagle's (Aetos-105) are prepared for him, and he returns to the house of his master.
For they will suddenly punish the ungodly, and who can know the vengeance inflicted by both? A son that keeps the commandment shall escape destruction; for such an one has fully received it. Let no falsehood be spoken by the king from the tongue; yea, let no falsehood proceed from his tongue. The kingís tongue is a sword, and not one of flesh; and whosoever shall be given up to it shall be destroyed: for if his wrath should be provoked, he destroys men with cords,and devours menís bones, and burns them up as a flame, so that they are not even fit to be eaten by the young eagles (Aetos-105). My son, reverence my words, and receive them, and repent.
Proverbs 30:17 The eye that laughs to scorn a father, and dishonours the old age of a mother, let the ravens of the valleys pick it out, and let the young eagles (Aetos-105) devour it.
Proverbs 30:19 the track of a flying eagle (Aetos-105); and the ways of a serpent on a rock; and the paths of a ship passing through the sea; and the ways of a man in youth.
Isaiah 40:31 but they that wait on God shall renew their strength; they shall put forth new feathers like eagles (Aetos-105); they shall run, and not be weary; they shall walk, and not hunger.
Jeremiah 4:13 Behold, he shall come up as a cloud, and his chariots as a tempest: his horses are swifter than eagles (Aetos-105). Woe unto us! for we are in misery.
Jeremiah 49:16 (29:16) Thine insolence has risen up against thee, the fierceness of thine heart has burst the holes of the rocks, it has seized upon the strength of a lofty hill; for as an eagles (Aetos-105) he set his nest on high: thence will I bring thee down.
Jeremiah 49:22 (29:22) Behold, he shall look upon her as an eagle (Aetos-105), and spread forth his wings over her strongholds; and the heart of the mighty men of Idumea shall be in that day as the heart of a woman in her pangs.
Lamentations 4:19 Our pursuers were swifter than the eagles (Aetos-105) of the sky, they flew on the mountains, in the wilderness they laid wait for us.
Ezekiel 1:10 And the likeness of their faces was the face of a man, and the face of a lion on the right of the four; and the face of a calf on the left of the four; and the face of an eagle (Aetos-105) to the four.
Ezekiel 17:3 and thou shalt say, Thus saith the Lord; A great eagle (Aetos-105) with large wings, spreading them out very far, with many claws, which has the design of entering into Libanusóand he took the choice branches of the cedar:
Ezekiel 17:7 And there was another great eagle (Aetos-105), with great wings and many claws: and, behold, this vine bent itself round toward him, and her roots were turned towards him, and she sent forth her branches towards him, that he might water her together with the growth of her plantation.
Daniel 7:4 The first was as a lioness, and her wings as an eagle's (Aetos-105); I beheld until her wings were plucked, ands she was lifted off from the earth, and she stood on human feet, and a manís heart was given to her.
Hosea 8:1 He shall come into their midst as the land, as an eagle (Aetos-105) against the house of the Lord, because they have transgressed my covenant, and have sinned against my law.
Obadiah 1:4 If thou shouldest mount up as the eagle (Aetos-105), and if thou shouldest make thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the Lord.
Micah 1:16 Shave thine hair, and make thyself bald for thy delicate children; increase thy widowhood as an eagle (Aetos-105); for thy people are gone into captivity from thee.
Habakkuk 1:8 And his horses shall bound more swiftly than leopards, and they are fiercer than the wolves of Arabia: and his horsemen shall ride forth, and shall rush from far; and they shall fly as an eagle (Aetos-105) hasting to eat.

David Taylor
Nov 11th 2008, 08:24 PM
Gupa (Greek) is also translated as vulture.

The word for Owl is a variation...and there are a hole slew of words used for Owl as a bird of prey.

hney, owk, unnets, shalak, yawnshuwph, lylythe, qippowz, bath, stryoin

JesusReignsForever
Nov 11th 2008, 08:38 PM
Matthew 24:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:28;&version=9;)

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.




Where there is something dead that is where the eagles will be to eat it. Eagles as well as most birds are scavengers they eat anything dead or alive. That is all it means.. there is no long theology behind it.

LookingUp
Nov 12th 2008, 02:08 AM
Last night I quoted Matthew 24.


My quote was taken directly off Biblegateway.com NIV.


Matthew 24:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:28;&version=31;)

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the vultures be gathered together.



This morning I revisited the site and I happened to pick the KJV. Note the difference:


Matthew 24:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:28;&version=9;)

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


I want to hear all your theories regarding this. Being that this is specifically an 'end times' scripture, and being that the 'end times' scriptures are very symbolic, this seems to be a a black and white difference that completely destroys any chance of inerrancy. It's funny also that it's actually a reflection of other verses within Matthew 24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024;&version=31;) such as verses 4, 23-24, and 26.


I'm sure this has been discussed before but please indulge me.Some have argued that this is in reference to the bloody war of Armageddon. But we all know that war will result in multiple corpses. Notice that carcase is singular in this verse.

I’d like to point out that those who follow after Christ, (Life), eat of His flesh.

I suggest that the those who follow after Antichrist (Death) eat of his flesh. Wheresoever the Antichrist is, there his followers will gather.

Back2Front
Nov 12th 2008, 08:13 AM
Thank you to all those who have replied so far. To start I'm gonna grab onto the Post by 'lookingUp'. The reason is I am one who knows how to be a false prophet, I can tell you that a con-artist doesn't have to fool 1000 people, he just has to fool a couple of key people who will bring in the 1000's.

What I mean by that is 'LookingUp' has made a few very good statements that I think will help me deflate the lie/con I know well, and that I think many are currently being deceived by. And I must say that the Eagle Vulture thing we are discussing is a mere crumb in that lie.


Notice that carcase is singular in this verse.

This is part of the cash money I was hoping someone would throw out there. In context of the previous warning not to go here or there if they say the Christ is in that place, if one does go, they will find a carcase of an Anti-Christ being feasted on. Gatherings if you will. Whats more, probably feeding the beast only to feast on the beast. Giving because they get something in return. All the while deceived that it is the Christ. Right? Well lets take a look at scripture and what is happening today.

So who are those who are deceived into going to deserts and rooms and such? And where are those places? and what do they look like? Are they icky dark deserty vulturey places? Because we surely know what that looks like. Or do we?

I'll deal with the first of those 4 questions now, as this is what this thread is about. That is to say the Eagle Vulture Scavenger Deceived Feasting on Anti Christ corpse people.

I believe the answer to the 'Who gets fooled' question, starts in verse 5 with the warning about those who will say they are 'The Christ'. Continues in verse 11 about false Prophets, whom I might add are different from the 'Christ Claimers'. Repeats as a warning again in verse 23. Then we come to the 'Who' that smacks us in verse 24. These are the feeders on the corpse. However, here is something I don't think most are taught to consider. Those are also the the verse 5, 11, and 23 people that prophecy falsely and Christ Claim and such. Moreover, those who are taught to want to be the same.

Now look at the very previous chapter. Specifically verses 5-12. I'm just gonna post those and let you all stew on them for a bit, as I'm going to move on to the difference between Eagles and Vultures.


Matthew 23:5-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023:5-12%20;&version=31;)

5 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.' 8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.



I suggest that the those who follow after Antichrist (Death) eat of his flesh. Wheresoever the Antichrist is, there his followers will gather.

Well said. In addition, feasting on his flesh. Literally??? His Flesh??? Maybe in some cases. But what do we know about the flesh and 'being in the flesh' and 'the sins of the flesh'? Please now reconsider the Matthew 23:5-12 verses.

Can you think of any of those places off hand where this might be happening...? Right now...? Today? Places where many are being deceived and gathering thinking they are getting Christ there but are actually just feasting on the corpse of the false Christ? Eagle like people? Because if it were vulture like people that couldn't possibly be you or I. After all vultures are other people, not good God loving folks like us.


Where there is something dead that is where the eagles will be to eat it. Eagles as well as most birds are scavengers they eat anything dead or alive. That is all it means.. there is no long theology behind it.

I understand your point JRF, but I think there is. So bare with me if you wish, and perhaps a deception you might discover.

Wycliffe lived in the 1300's and wrote a translation in the 1380's that was taken from the Latin Vulgate, and translated into Vernacular English so uneducated Europeans could better understand the bible. Here is the verse from that translation.


Matthew 24:28 (http://www.biblekeeper.com/Wycliffe-nt/matthew_24.php)

28 Where euer the bodi schal be, also the eglis schulen be gaderid thidur.


He thought to call them Eagles.

So why would would the modern day, forward thinking, better understood to Americans NIV completely change the animal?

Tell a classroom of American publicly educated 5th graders to do this:

Those who want to be Eagles go to one side of the room, and those who want to be vultures go to the other.

How many do you think will be on the eagle side and how many on the vulture side?

In a con, the con-artist has to gain the confidence and faith of the mark. I often hear Believers say, "Why are you so caught up in the semantics?", and, "That's just splitting hairs". Well, it's in the semantics is where Satan launches his big lies.

So here we are. 2000 years of semantic after semantic after semantic....

And the big lie has landed.

And here is a little clue, a crumb if you will...

Who on earth would ever picture themselves AS A VULTURE???

Comments?

Back2Front
Nov 12th 2008, 08:20 AM
eagles are flesh eating birds it's just we associate vultures being flesh eating birds of the dead.

And not Eagles. We associate Eagles with being us. American or not. Even a Chinaman would rather call himself an Eagle over a vulture.


......the translators chose vultures in one translation and eagles in another.

Exactly! But not on accident. Nothing is an accident when it comes to scripture.


Is anybody getting the whole of what I'm suggesting here?

threebigrocks
Nov 12th 2008, 02:23 PM
And here is a little clue, a crumb if you will...

Who on earth would ever picture themselves AS A VULTURE???

Comments?

That's the bulleye. If you go up to an unbeliever (because as you said these eagles aren't believer) will come out and tell you yep, I'm a vulture. They are unsaved, and don't know they are already on the side of death by the very sin nature they were born with. Whoever isn't for me is against me, correct? More cliche, birds of a feather flock together.

As believers, we know to beware of those who are out to deceive. But those who aren't believers are already deceived and will remain in that deception unless they see a need for a Savior and seek it out.

So the verse from Matthew is simply stating fact firstly and foremost. Where there is a carcass we know, fact, that is where the eagles or vultures (or whatever carion eating animal) is gonna be. Why do they do that? They are hungry - there's dinner I'm gonna go get some food. Physically - that is all it means.

Spiritually it's that we will follow what we feed off of, what we are fed by. Do we feed the wolf of deception or off of the living Word and Bread of Life? Deception only brings death. If you watch Discovery channel at all, you see birds gathering on the ground, circling overhead, just waiting for the chance to get a bite. They will fight over feeding off of what is death.

Death cannot feed off of life if they remain dead. For those pictured in these verses, there is no way to life if they continue in and feed themselves lies and deception. There will come a time where the food of life will no longer be available to them, and they will continue to eat of death, right down to every scrap off the bones.

Back2Front
Nov 12th 2008, 05:52 PM
Some very good thoughts here by threebigrocks so I'm gonna 'feed' off of this.

I want to preface though. I'm not talking to the actively deceived or those who are choosing to be deceived. My points and comments are to those who seek the the truth about our Lord Messiah and nothing else. Moreover, I'm talking to those who seek FROM him and NOWHERE else. So please examine your consciences and intents of your hearts.

Furthermore, I give my time and energy here freely. I share as I'm compelled by the Holy Spirit to do so. I want nothing from any of you in return, other than for all of you to follow Christ only, and not me or anyone else.

Lastly, I reject all offers of praise including monetary. I don't have a Ministry, Website, nor am I writing a book. I hope and have faith in him to provide for me plenty of oil for my lamp to see the Bridegroom on his return. I'm just here to get you to have enough cash to be able to show up with plenty of your own. (Matthew 25:1-13) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2025:1-13;&version=31;)


That's the bulleye. If you go up to an unbeliever (because as you said these eagles aren't believer)

But think and fool others to believe they are a believer, thus making them this:

Matthew 24:11,24

11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

After all who isn't impressed by an Eagle? This is where eagles and vultures and their differences becomes very important and carters to an active deception that's thousands of years in the making.


They are unsaved, and don't know they are already on the side of death by the very sin nature they were born with. Whoever isn't for me is against me, correct? More cliche, birds of a feather flock together.

Fitting cliche. But where do they flock? Remember this war, this deception, it's a spiritual one that surrounds us. Not to cause fear in any one, but here is some scripture that clues us in;


Matthew 10:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:21-22;&version=31;)

21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


Matthew 10:34-36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:34-36;&version=31;)

34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'


Matthew 24:40-41 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:40-41;&version=31;)

40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.





As believers, we know to beware of those who are out to deceive.

Yes but many are purposefully not taught how to identify what those deceivers actually look like. After all who needs to be taught anything when they are first handed a shroud of presumption.


But those who aren't believers are already deceived and will remain in that deception unless they see a need for a Savior and seek it out.

Who wants to be a vulture? Who wants to be an eagle? Who needs an actual savior when there are so many eagles to be impressed by who claim and presume to be bringing us the savior, then cause us to believe they can?


So the verse from Matthew is simply stating fact firstly and foremost. Where there is a carcass we know, fact, that is where the eagles or vultures (or whatever carion eating animal) is gonna be. Why do they do that? They are hungry - there's dinner I'm gonna go get some food. Physically - that is all it means.

Yes. Bullseye! But it's disguised to be Spiritual, thus the deception. And in fact it is Physical and in the flesh, but it is touted to be the Spiritual and is a lie that so many eat of, as they are deceived by it.


Spiritually it's that we will follow what we feed off of, what we are fed by.

YES! Well put!

But I must point out there is a huge difference between what we actually feed off of, and what we potentially are deceived into presuming to feed off of.


Do we feed the wolf of deception or off of the living Word and Bread of Life?

A poignant question we should constantly be asking ourselves about ourselves and about others. But that's not to insight paranoia as the lord protects his true watchmen.

That said, we know paranoia is another sign of deception.


They will fight over feeding off of what is death.

Very well put!

And yet another sign of deception. But are they huge fights, or little nit picky underhanded backstabbing ones that lead to the huge ones?

Everyones afraid of Nukes, but nobody seems to be afraid of the plants that manufacture them.

Using that analogy, anyone know of any nuke plants in their lives?

ehhem...

Our sudden need to trust only God, after a life of being taught to trust men and their take on God, which is the false God, is why this happens:


Matthew 24:10-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:10-12;&version=31;)

10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,


We were never commanded to trust each other or put our faith in men, yet we have. We have only been commanded to trust in God and put our faith in him, yet we haven't. We have been commanded to tell each other to do so, yet our intentions are disguised as such, and in fact we ask others to put their faith and trust in us and our version of the truth.

The biggest deception is when we tell another that giving to us, means that they are giving to God.

The sign of that deception is the Idols that have been created, with what has been given, and it is called God,... or of God,... or in God,... or through God,... or any variation of presumption within and without.