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Junos
Nov 11th 2008, 09:28 PM
Hello Everyone,

I'm researching the requirements if you will, for a Pastor. Everywhere I've looked treats Elders and Pastors interchangeably. I don't think this is correct. I know the requirements for Elder/Deacon, 1 Tim. 3:2 and Titus 1:6 and I know that Peter says of himself and the other elders to "Be shepherds of God's flock", and I know that a Pastor is a shepherd but I don't think that Elders/pastor is one in the same. The responsibilities of an Elder and Pastor are different. Biblical information required please. :)

Anyone have any insight on this?

Thanks All,

Junos

mcgyver
Nov 11th 2008, 09:39 PM
Hi Junos,

You've posted in an area of the board that is reserved for non-Christians to ask questions of our faith, so I'm moving this to Bible Chat where you can get some answers.

Thanks.

RoadWarrior
Nov 11th 2008, 09:46 PM
How about this one:

1 Pe 5:2-3
2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; 3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;
NKJV

Junos
Nov 11th 2008, 09:52 PM
How about this one:

1 Pe 5:2-3
2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; 3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;
NKJV

That's my main quesiton. I don't think this verse actually means to call them pastors if you will? My thought is Elder/Pastor are two different positions. I'm looking for more on this, I don't want to just settle.

Thank you for you answer. :)

RoadWarrior
Nov 11th 2008, 10:40 PM
That's my main quesiton. I don't think this verse actually means to call them pastors if you will? My thought is Elder/Pastor are two different positions. I'm looking for more on this, I don't want to just settle.

Thank you for you answer. :)

I agree that the positions in a church are different, elder and pastor. Some would argue that the pastor must also be an elder, but that you can be an elder without also being a pastor.

I thought you had answered for yourself what the requirements were for elders. I was responding to your question about pastors. I believe that pastor and shepherd have the same meaning, in terms of the position of the person in the church, the "pastor". His job is the same as a shepherd over a flock of sheep.

I applaud you for not "just settling", and would encourage you to pursue a study on the word shepherd.

Others will be along shortly to toss in their opinions, so I'm sure that in the end you will have much to choose from.

amazzin
Nov 11th 2008, 11:01 PM
Hello Everyone,

I'm researching the requirements if you will, for a Pastor. Everywhere I've looked treats Elders and Pastors interchangeably. I don't think this is correct. I know the requirements for Elder/Deacon, 1 Tim. 3:2 and Titus 1:6 and I know that Peter says of himself and the other elders to "Be shepherds of God's flock", and I know that a Pastor is a shepherd but I don't think that Elders/pastor is one in the same. The responsibilities of an Elder and Pastor are different. Biblical information required please. :)

Anyone have any insight on this?

Thanks All,

Junos

The word is most often used interchangeably but there is a difference. The office of the elder includes ministry to the sick (James 5:14-15), they taught in a local congregation by ministering the scriptures (1 Tim 5:17, 1 Peter 5:5). But they were not shepherds

Today, we clearly see differences in the roles of an elder versus a pastor. Elders function more in administering the churches as Presbyters with dignity, wisdom and maturity. (1 Tim 4:14).

Pastors function more as a spiritual leader in the church like bishops. Bishops are to oversee the flock of God, to shepherd His people, to protect them from enemies, and to teach, exhort and encourage.

Firefighter
Nov 12th 2008, 01:00 PM
The NT model of leadership WAS multiple elders. Church was not as it is today. There is no senior pastor role in the early church. While there is certainly a distinction between "bishop" and "deacon", they are all considered elders. The elders led the church and power did not reside in the hands of a single "pastor".

9Marksfan
Nov 12th 2008, 01:13 PM
Pastors function more as a spiritual leader in the church like bishops. Bishops are to oversee the flock of God, to shepherd His people, to protect them from enemies, and to teach, exhort and encourage.

But aren't elders and bishops the same?

The elders [presbuteroi] who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ... 1 Pet 5:1 NKJV

Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers [or bishops = episkopoi]... 1 Pet 5:2a NKJV

KingFisher
Nov 12th 2008, 01:55 PM
But aren't elders and bishops the same?

The elders [presbuteroi] who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ... 1 Pet 5:1 NKJV

Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers [or bishops = episkopoi]... 1 Pet 5:2a NKJV

Hi 9Marksfan,

I would say yes they are the same...

1 Peter 5:1-2 brings them together. Peter instructs the elders to be good
bishops as they pastor.

1Pe 5:1 The elders [πρεσβύτερος][Strong's G4245, presbuteros] which
are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the
sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be
revealed:

1Pe 5:2 Feed [ποιμαίνω][Strong's G4165, poimaino] the flock of God
which is among you, taking the oversight [ἐπισκοπέω][Strong's G1983,
episkopeo] [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre,
but of a ready mind;

And...

Acts 20:28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which
the Holy Spirit has made you overseers [episkopos], to shepherd
[pomaino] the church of God.

presbyteros (Strong's G4245) elders [πρεσβύτερος]
1) elder, of age,
a) the elder of two people
b) advanced in life, an elder, a senior
1) forefathers
2) a term of rank or office
a) among the Jews
1) members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the
rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
2) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered
justice
b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or
churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters
interchangeably
c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated
on thrones around the throne of God

episkopos (Strong's G1985) overseer [ἐπίσκοπος]
1) an overseer
a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by
others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church

poimainō (Strong's G4165) feed [ποιμαίνω]
1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
a) to rule, govern
1) of rulers
2) to furnish pasture for food
3) to nourish
4) to cherish one's body, to serve the body
5) to supply the requisites for the soul's need

Now I know what some are saying, none of the above definitions say
pastor. In that they would be correct. Although, what does a pastor /
shephard do? Feed, tend, keep the flock.

poimēn (Strong's G4166) shepherd / pastor [ποιμήν]
1) a herdsman, esp. a shepherd
a) in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed
themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) metaph.
a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ
the Head of the church
1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
2) of kings and princes

Hope this helps,
KingFisher

Junos
Nov 12th 2008, 03:13 PM
Heres a better question:

Do you think it's OK to use the requirements to be an elder for selecting a pastor? If not, how do we find the requirements for a pastor, biblically of course?

Thanks for the help all!!!

Junos :)

Veretax
Nov 12th 2008, 03:21 PM
I've been in several different churches.

Presbyterians believe in a Pastor as a Bishop of sorts, in the PCA i grew up in, neither the Pastor, or Assistant Pastor were "official members of the church", but instead belonged to the Presbytery or assembly of the church so to speak. They also separate the work of the Elders and Deacons. The standards for Elders are typically higher than that for deacons, and Elders are typically involved in the teaching ministry of the Church, as well as in making sure that what is being taught matches with scripture, while deacons are intended to serve the church, and do many times without the rest of the congregation knowing.

In the Baptist Churches I've been a member, Elders are looked at as Senior members of the Congregation, and their role is merged with that of Deacons, I'm really not sure why they do that.

In a non denom church i was a part, they didn't have a "office" of elder, but did have deacons, and would rotate people to serve as I want to say administrators, but in reality they served as the board of the Church, and helped in that area.

I'm not sure if that helps answer you question though :/

Junos
Nov 12th 2008, 04:25 PM
I can use any information. Thanks your the info! :)

RoadWarrior
Nov 12th 2008, 05:36 PM
The NT model of leadership WAS multiple elders. Church was not as it is today. There is no senior pastor role in the early church. While there is certainly a distinction between "bishop" and "deacon", they are all considered elders. The elders led the church and power did not reside in the hands of a single "pastor".

Do you not think perhaps that Paul was a "pastor" figure? It was not about having power, it was about shepherding the flock, as Jesus had taught the apostles to do.

KingFisher
Nov 12th 2008, 06:40 PM
Heres a better question:

Do you think it's OK to use the requirements to be an elder for selecting a pastor?

Howdy Junos, :wave:

presbyteros (Strong's G4245) elders [πρεσβύτερος]
b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or
churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters
interchangeably.

poimēn (Strong's G4166) shepherd / pastor [ποιμήν]
a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ
the Head of the church
1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies

Sure...if they're the same office then why not.

God bless,
KingFisher

RabbiKnife
Nov 12th 2008, 07:12 PM
A pastor is a gift to the church, not an office.

People of all stripes, maturity, and gender are pastors, as they are the ones that God has supernaturally gifted to care, guide, lead, and shepherd the members of the congregation. No different than any other spiritual gift.

Elders have a different role.

One can be an elder and not be a pastor.
One can be a pastor and not be an elder.
One can be both a pastor and an elder.

Our problem is that we equate "pastor" to a job or office instead of keeping it the "gift" that God made it. Everything we do after that is just man-made religion.

thegospelgeek
Nov 12th 2008, 07:13 PM
Bishop, Pastor, Shepard are all pretty much interchangable. I get a little confused what people mean when they say elder. Some denominations use the term to describe what my denomination calls Deacons and some use it to describe what I interpet as a Pastor. So depending on how you are using the term, my answer would vary.

Regardless of what term you use, the Bible gives the Qualifications, you just need to determine if the role falls under Deacon(diakoneo) or Bishop(episkope).

Personaly I agree with kingFisher that the term Elder falls inder the Bishop/Pastor definition.

A really good short read on the subject is "Teacher leader Shepard, The New testament Pastor" by Robert E. Picarilli. The book doesn't get into much Doctrine, but concentrates on the new Testament requirements for a Pastor.

Hope this helps. I'm not real good a expressing myself on forums.

KingFisher
Nov 12th 2008, 07:15 PM
In the Baptist Churches I've been a member, Elders are looked at as Senior members of the Congregation, and their role is merged with that of Deacons, I'm really not sure why they do that.

Hi Veretax,

According to most baptist churches doctrinal statements the two offices,
that being pastor and the other deacon are separate offices as seen here...

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the
saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons
(Strong's G1249):

diakonos (Strong's G1249) minister; servant; deacon [διάκονος]1) one who
executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant,
attendant, minister
a) the servant of a king
b) a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the
church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money
collected for their use
c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink

KingFisher

thegospelgeek
Nov 12th 2008, 07:52 PM
KingFisher - Agreed that bishops/pastors and deacons are seperate offices. Do you know what is ment by "elder"? As mentioned above, I have a friend who's church has Elders and Deacons. I was saved in a denomination that had Pastors and Elders. In the first the elders served in the capacity of a Pastor and in the second the elder served as a deacon. I have always considered an Elder as the pastor or possibly a term being made up of the Pastor/pastors and deacons. (I think this applies to James Chpt 5). Please comment

KingFisher
Nov 12th 2008, 08:22 PM
KingFisher - Agreed that bishops/pastors and deacons are seperate offices. Do you know what is ment by "elder"? As mentioned above, I have a friend who's church has Elders and Deacons. I was saved in a denomination that had Pastors and Elders. In the first the elders served in the capacity of a Pastor and in the second the elder served as a deacon. I have always considered an Elder as the pastor or possibly a term being made up of the Pastor/pastors and deacons. (I think this applies to James Chpt 5). Please comment

Hey thegospelgeek,

Thanks for the question.

Elder (presbyteros) can refer to someone of age.

Although, I think in cases that it is referring to the bishop; pastor;
shepherd it doesn't necessitate age.

Not sure I've seen a scripture reference tying deacons and elders as the
same. There is scripture that shows elders and pastors to be the same...

I know I didn't fully answer your question. Give me a little while and I'll try
to look up some references.

Thanks,
KingFisher

mikebr
Nov 12th 2008, 09:03 PM
A pastor is a gift to the church, not an office.

People of all stripes, maturity, and gender are pastors, as they are the ones that God has supernaturally gifted to care, guide, lead, and shepherd the members of the congregation. No different than any other spiritual gift.

Elders have a different role.

One can be an elder and not be a pastor.
One can be a pastor and not be an elder.
One can be both a pastor and an elder.

Our problem is that we equate "pastor" to a job or office instead of keeping it the "gift" that God made it. Everything we do after that is just man-made religion.

Good post, I would add that many women have this pastoral gift.

Veretax
Nov 12th 2008, 09:27 PM
I am curious, how do you reconcile Paul's command in Timothy?

1 Tim 2:11-15
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with

RabbiKnife
Nov 12th 2008, 10:17 PM
1. The passage says nothing about someone exercising their spiritual gift of being a pastor. Your culture is telling you that "pastor" = either teaching or authority.

2. Long story short, in the passage, Paul is dealing with a Gnostic belief in Ephesus, part from the history of the goddess Artemis in the region, that said that man originated from woman. Paul addresses this head on, and says that he will not tolerate such teaching. In the culture, limited female authority was necessary; however, even then, the words really mean "not use authority unilaterally". The KJV translation is very poor on this passage.

KingFisher
Nov 12th 2008, 10:17 PM
I know I didn't fully answer your question. Give me a little while and I'll try
to look up some references.

thegospelgeek you asked an excellent question.

This is some definitions of the usage of elder:
presbyteros (Strong's G4245) [πρεσβύτερος]
3) in the Christian churches, those who, being raised up and qualified by
the work of the Holy Spirit, were appointed to have the spiritual care of,
and to exercise oversight over, the churches. To these the term "bishops,"
episkopoi, or "overseers," is applied (see Acts 20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Act&c=20&v=#), ver. 17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Act&c=20#17) with ver. 28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Act&c=20#28), and
Tts 1:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Tts&c=1&v=5#5), 7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Tts&c=1&v=7#7)), the latter term indicating the nature of their work, presbuteroi
their maturity of spirtual experience. The Divine arrangement seen
throughout the NT was for a plurality of these to be appointed in each
church, Act 14:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Act&c=14&v=23#23); 20:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Act&c=20&v=17#17); Phl 1:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Phl&c=1&v=1#1); 1Ti 5:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Ti&c=5&v=17#17); Tts 1:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Tts&c=1&v=5#5). The duty of "elders"
is described by the verb episkopeo. They were appointed according as
they had given evidence of fulfilling the Divine qualifications, Tts 1:6-9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Tts&c=1&v=6#6); cp.
1Ti 3:1-7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Ti&c=3&v=1#1); 1Pe 5:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Pe&c=5&v=2#2); (Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

From this and the previous references that I've given, I'm still of the
opinion that calling a deacon an elder doesn't seem to have a scriptural
base.

But...

As Rabbiknife pointed out, the term "office" that I and many others use for
pastors and deacons isn't found in scripture either. :blush:

Seems we all have our warts.

Again, thanks for the question...I'm going to read some more...It's a good
study. :idea:

Hope this helps,
KingFisher

KingFisher
Nov 12th 2008, 10:24 PM
1. The passage says nothing about someone exercising their spiritual gift of being a pastor. Your culture is telling you that "pastor" = either teaching or authority.

Doesn't a shepherd exercise authority when overseeing the flock?

Ever curious,
KingFisher

Veretax
Nov 12th 2008, 11:30 PM
Doesn't a shepherd exercise authority when overseeing the flock?

Ever curious,
KingFisher


Which is what I was going to ask. There's a difference between being a teacher as in Sunday School, and being a pastor where people perceive that you wield spiritual authority over others. Isn't the part where the qualifications for pastors are also sometimes translated as bishop or overseer?

RoadWarrior
Nov 12th 2008, 11:50 PM
1 Pe 5:2-3
2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; 3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;
NKJV

Just want to bring this back to your attention.

ravi4u2
Nov 13th 2008, 04:36 AM
Doesn't a shepherd exercise authority when overseeing the flock?

Ever curious,
KingFisher

Jesus called His disciples together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slaveó just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

ravi4u2
Nov 13th 2008, 04:38 AM
The word is most often used interchangeably but there is a difference. The office of the elder includes ministry to the sick (James 5:14-15), they taught in a local congregation by ministering the scriptures (1 Tim 5:17, 1 Peter 5:5). But they were not shepherds I presume the last part "But they were not shepherds", is just an opinion.

RabbiKnife
Nov 13th 2008, 02:12 PM
If you believe that the individual believer needs someone to rule over them, then you need an authoritative power wielder.

If you believe that the individual believer needs someone to guide and help them in their walk with Christ, then you need the pastor that Paul describes.

thegospelgeek
Nov 13th 2008, 02:20 PM
Hello Everyone,

I'm researching the requirements if you will, for a Pastor. Everywhere I've looked treats Elders and Pastors interchangeably. I don't think this is correct. I know the requirements for Elder/Deacon, 1 Tim. 3:2 and Titus 1:6 and I know that Peter says of himself and the other elders to "Be shepherds of God's flock", and I know that a Pastor is a shepherd but I don't think that Elders/pastor is one in the same. The responsibilities of an Elder and Pastor are different. Biblical information required please. :)

Anyone have any insight on this?

Thanks All,

Junos
Biblicaly Elder/Pastor/Bishop are interchagable. It helps me to think that the bible uses Bishop when speaking of the office and shepard/pastor when speaking of the duties. As I stated earlier some denomination use the term Elder as a Deacon. That could be why you think Pastor and Elder are different. Best advice I can give is read 1 Tim. and Titus. They will give you the minimum qualifications for a Bishop/Pastor/Elder and also the qualification for a deacon/Elder. Don't get too caught up in terminology. I have a friend who thinks our church unbiblical because we use the term pastor while they use Elder. It's not the terms but the position. There are many other verses that speak of the duties. I would have to go back through my notes. I can do that if you wish. Just let me know.

The Pastor is a position of authority(responsibility), however this authority is not to be "Lorded" over others. The Pastor has to lead not drive. If someone has a true Pastors heart, this will not be an issue.

Also, don't get the role/gift of pastor confused with the role/gift of preaching(evangalism, prophet). They are very different.


1 Tim 3 states that the Bishop should rule his household well with children in subjection. It also states that he not be a novice. Unless I misunderstood some of the statements in this thread, some have stated that a pastor does not have to be an elder (older) person. While I am not saying that he has to be a senior citizen, doesn't this diqualify a youth with no family?

KingFisher
Nov 13th 2008, 02:43 PM
Well howdy Ravi4u2,

Thanks for giving an explanation.

You said...

Jesus called His disciples together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slaveó just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Cool ok, I agree with that. A pastor is not to lord over the flock as the
rulers and high officials did.

Although, what do you think about this...

1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double
honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.

So again, I don't think that they should lord over authority as the gentile
rulers did, but I can't say they are void of authority. They should guide as
a servant leader. In the example of the Chief Shepherd.

Maybe you assumed that I give more authority to pastors than what is true?

In the shepherd type of relationship...that's the question that I asked.
How does a shepherd guide the flock?

Thanks,
KingFisher

KingFisher
Nov 13th 2008, 02:44 PM
If you believe that the individual believer needs someone to rule over them, then you need an authoritative power wielder.

If you believe that the individual believer needs someone to guide and help them in their walk with Christ, then you need the pastor that Paul describes.

Cool...I guess we are in agreement then.

Veretax
Nov 13th 2008, 03:14 PM
Biblicaly Elder/Pastor/Bishop are interchagable. It helps me to think that the bible uses Bishop when speaking of the office and shepard/pastor when speaking of the duties. As I stated earlier some denomination use the term Elder as a Deacon. That could be why you think Pastor and Elder are different. Best advice I can give is read 1 Tim. and Titus. They will give you the minimum qualifications for a Bishop/Pastor/Elder and also the qualification for a deacon/Elder. Don't get too caught up in terminology. I have a friend who thinks our church unbiblical because we use the term pastor while they use Elder. It's not the terms but the position. There are many other verses that speak of the duties. I would have to go back through my notes. I can do that if you wish. Just let me know.

The Pastor is a position of authority(responsibility), however this authority is not to be "Lorded" over others. The Pastor has to lead not drive. If someone has a true Pastors heart, this will not be an issue.

Also, don't get the role/gift of pastor confused with the role/gift of preaching(evangalism, prophet). They are very different.


1 Tim 3 states that the Bishop should rule his household well with children in subjection. It also states that he not be a novice. Unless I misunderstood some of the statements in this thread, some have stated that a pastor does not have to be an elder (older) person. While I am not saying that he has to be a senior citizen, doesn't this diqualify a youth with no family?

Ah thanks for reminding me where that was. I missed it by a chapter. So let's bring the text of 1 Tim 3 into play here:


1 Tim 3:1-7
1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,* he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, F3 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+Timothy+2%3A12&section=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1ti&NavGo=2&NavNextChapter=%3E%3E&NavCurrentChapter=2#F3) but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.



Now, here's where I'm going to throw a wrench into the discussion, but I hope that you will see that I do so because of what this passage says. If the office of Bishop is equivalent to elders or pastors, then it seems obvious that a woman cannot be a Bishop as it says here because she, naturally, cannot be the husband of one wife.. Do you agree or disagree on this point? (Also it appears that the personal pronouns used here, are all masculine. I've bolded what I deem as being the masculine terms in my NKJV translation, comparing to the interlinear greek, a few of these personal pronouns are not there, but they are there in much of the verse.)


1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,* he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, F3 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+Timothy+2%3A12&section=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1ti&NavGo=2&NavNextChapter=%3E%3E&NavCurrentChapter=2#F3) but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.





One could make the argument I believe, that the office of Bishop at least was intended for men to hold, and not women.

But note also that similar key words are found in the qualifications for deacons:


1 Tim 3:8-13

8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.





So in both of these cases it seems apparent that the 'office' was never intended to be held by women. Do you agree or disagree?

thegospelgeek
Nov 13th 2008, 04:43 PM
So in both of these cases it seems apparent that the 'office' was never intended to be held by women. Do you agree or disagree?


Yes, it is my belief that the office of Bishop ad Deacon are intended for men.
Not sure that I want to open that can of worms. I'm new here and I am sure it has been debated over and over again. But I will if that is the desire.:)