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manichunter
Nov 12th 2008, 12:10 AM
Would God punish or judge a nation if they had a national executive leader who was wicked and they permitted their national leader to be unrighteous in their behavior and wicked towards God without trying to hold them accountable and reconcile towards God?

I believe yes, as seen from Scriptural history............

Ashley274
Nov 12th 2008, 05:55 AM
I believe yes too but I chose maybe because in the Bible Moses asked God if even 10 men were found rightous to please spare the city and people....he got down to even 1 :lol: So who knows......Good question

Joe King
Nov 12th 2008, 02:59 PM
Everyone is personally responsible for their own actions. When was the last time the leader of a nation rebuked everyone? If they did, they would never be voted in the first place. If they are a dictator, it's unlikely that God is their priority either.

Vadelerj
Nov 13th 2008, 04:18 AM
Would God punish or judge a nation if they had a national executive leader who was wicked and they permitted their national leader to be unrighteous in their behavior and wicked towards God without trying to hold them accountable and reconcile towards God?

I believe yes, as seen from Scriptural history............


I believe yes as well.
However, those that are truly "right with God" will receive [I believe] His protection. America, for instance, as a whole, is guilty of letting horrid abominations of moral values permeate itself decade after decade. Sure, a few have tried to fight, but not very many at all. Not only have we allowed it, but we've spread some of these things elsewhere like a huge, dark cloud of evil and promiscuity.
I also believe some countries are 'given' leaders, by God, based on their past actions and such. Such as when a country is in a horrible, perverse, dark state, which goes largely unchecked by the populace, it can expect a leader that will aid in continuing these values.

Marc B
Nov 13th 2008, 04:59 AM
America and every other nation that sins on a national level including Canada, the UK and other so called christian nations will be punished and overtaken by the Beast power during the great tribulation. Why do you think the EU and China are gaining economic and military power while the western world is declining in the same areas? Staggering deficits, droughts and violent weather in increasing numbers and intensity. The stage is being set for our downfall. We are being drained of our prosperity and might while living standards are on the rise in Europe and Asia. As far as modern nations go we are on such a decline with secularism, materialism, lawlessness, disrespect of authority, gay rights, political correctness, the list goes on and on. It should be no surprise that one day the EU and China will dominate and rule over us until Jesus returns. Make no mistake. We will go into captivity just as the ancient Israelites did so long ago. Only this time it will be a world superpower instead of just one country. The book of Ezekiel is a good place to read about our near future in the coming tribulation and our restoration in the millenium at Christ's return. Ancient Israel is a parallel of our modern day western civilization. While our nations may fall around us we can as individuals be spared if we keep our faith and obey God's commandments.

MercyChild
Nov 13th 2008, 06:42 AM
Well I thought Yes, because, where are the Christians, and why dont we stand up for the right things. But yet again, is everyone not responsible for themselves. But still I would strongly rather agree with you, because it think it is our work to spread the thruth and stand up for what is right. This is just my own personal opinion, and is not sure wheter it is correct according to the Bible, as I am still new in Christ!:hmm:

cwb
Nov 15th 2008, 03:51 AM
Would God punish or judge a nation if they had a national executive leader who was wicked and they permitted their national leader to be unrighteous in their behavior and wicked towards God without trying to hold them accountable and reconcile towards God?

I believe yes, as seen from Scriptural history............

In the case of the United States, usually it is a majority of the people who puts the national leader into office. So if God were to punish or judge the United States, it would be because the hearts of the majority of the people were wrong. However, I once remember hearing a bible teaching where God saved a nation because of the intercession of a few. I tried to remember and find where it was in scripture but couldn't. Does anybody else know where it might be?

Tanya~
Nov 15th 2008, 04:12 AM
Gen 18:23-26
23 And Abraham came near and said,"Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

26 So the LORD said,"If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes."
NKJV

Gen 18:32-33
32 Then he said, "Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?"

And He said, "I will not destroy it for the sake of ten." 33 So the LORD went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.
NKJV

The problem with ungodly leaders is that they lead the people into ungodliness. The whole nation isn't destroyed because of one ungodly leader, but because the whole nation has descended into ungodliness.

The remnant will be saved.

Jollyrogers
Nov 16th 2008, 03:28 AM
I believe yes too but I chose maybe because in the Bible Moses asked God if even 10 men were found rightous to please spare the city and people....he got down to even 1 :lol: So who knows......Good question

Its Abraham, not Moses. I went over this part of genesis a few weeks ago and kept doing that and everybody in the rom got to where they were shouting ABRAHAM, lol. Now it is stuck in my head :hug:

In Genesis 18:23 Abraham asks God a question that we all at one time or another ask. Will You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? That is answered in the next chapter in the dealings with Lot. The Bible says that Lot was a righteous man (2 Peter 2:8). When the messengers got to Soddom after they had seem enough they told Lot to leave and when he delayed they grabbed him and his family and drug them out of the city (Gen 19:16). They then told him that they were not allowed to bring judgement on the city until he had left (Gen 19:22). If he would not destroy Soddam without removing Lot who was richteous then I feel safe in saying he would not punish the righteous with the wicked now.

Eaglenester
Nov 16th 2008, 03:41 AM
The people of Israel were judged many times in Scripture because of the actions of their leaders - even when the people didn't have a say in who those leaders would be.

moonglow
Nov 16th 2008, 03:48 AM
The people of Israel were judged many times in Scripture because of the actions of their leaders - even when the people didn't have a say in who those leaders would be.

I don't think so...I think they were judged because all of them have turned their backs on God. You would have to give an example of that...I mean that makes no sense for God to judge a whole nation when they had no control over who become their leader and especially if they were following God and not the leader...

God bless

Eaglenester
Nov 16th 2008, 04:00 AM
I don't think so...I think they were judged because all of them have turned their backs on God. You would have to give an example of that...I mean that makes no sense for God to judge a whole nation when they had no control over who become their leader and especially if they were following God and not the leader...

God bless

I'll get an example with Israel.

But was not ALL of Egypt judged because of the actions of Pharaoh?
The plagues?
The death of the 1st born?

Did the people have a say in who Pharaoh was?

moonglow
Nov 16th 2008, 05:07 AM
I'll get an example with Israel.

But was not ALL of Egypt judged because of the actions of Pharaoh?
The plagues?
The death of the 1st born?

Did the people have a say in who Pharaoh was?

The people were part of the problem...yes. I will highlight what they did in blue:

Exodus 1

7 But the children of Israel were fruitful and increased abundantly, multiplied and grew exceedingly mighty; and the land was filled with them.

8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. 9 And he said to his people, “Look, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we; 10 come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and it happen, in the event of war, that they also join our enemies and fight against us, and so go up out of the land.” 11 Therefore they set taskmasters over them to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh supply cities, Pithom and Raamses. 12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were in dread of the children of Israel.

13 So the Egyptians made the children of Israel serve with rigor. 14 And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage—in mortar, in brick, and in all manner of service in the field. All their service in which they made them serve was with rigor.

15 Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one was Shiphrah and the name of the other Puah; 16 and he said, “When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.” 17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive. 18 So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?”

19 And the midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them.”

20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and grew very mighty. 21 And so it was, because the midwives feared God, that He provided households for them.

22 So Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, “Every son who is born you shall cast into the river, and every daughter you shall save alive.”

The people did what he commanded with the exception of those two midwives who feared God more and they were blessed by God for what they did. So besides working the Hebrews to a bone as slaves and making their lives miserable...they would kill any new born baby boy...that was the whole reason Moses ended up being hidden and found by Pharaoh's sister...out of fear of him being killed.

Plus they all worshiped pagan gods too! These people were certainly not innocent with the Pharaoh being the only one doing evil things.

God bless

Eaglenester
Nov 17th 2008, 03:16 AM
The people were part of the problem...yes. I will highlight what they did in blue:

Exodus 1

7 But the children of Israel were fruitful and increased abundantly, multiplied and grew exceedingly mighty; and the land was filled with them.

8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. 9 And he said to his people, “Look, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we; 10 come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and it happen, in the event of war, that they also join our enemies and fight against us, and so go up out of the land.” 11 Therefore they set taskmasters over them to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh supply cities, Pithom and Raamses. 12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were in dread of the children of Israel.

13 So the Egyptians made the children of Israel serve with rigor. 14 And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage—in mortar, in brick, and in all manner of service in the field. All their service in which they made them serve was with rigor.

15 Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one was Shiphrah and the name of the other Puah; 16 and he said, “When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.” 17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive. 18 So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?”

19 And the midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them.”

20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and grew very mighty. 21 And so it was, because the midwives feared God, that He provided households for them.

22 So Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, “Every son who is born you shall cast into the river, and every daughter you shall save alive.”

The people did what he commanded with the exception of those two midwives who feared God more and they were blessed by God for what they did. So besides working the Hebrews to a bone as slaves and making their lives miserable...they would kill any new born baby boy...that was the whole reason Moses ended up being hidden and found by Pharaoh's sister...out of fear of him being killed.

Plus they all worshiped pagan gods too! These people were certainly not innocent with the Pharaoh being the only one doing evil things.

God bless

GOOD points.

I will have to re evaluate my position on this topic.