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*Living~By~Faith*
Nov 12th 2008, 11:06 AM
I haven't studied the end times. I feel that you should be ready to meet your maker at any time, so why concern yourself with trying to figure out when He'll return.

But I do have some questions that have came to my mind the past coupld of days that I can't figure out. I don't have any opinions ts on pre- mid or post tribulation. I don't understand how pre-tribulation would work? From what I know is when Jesus returns the dead in Christ are to ascend to Him, then we that are still living will ascend. Then what? If this happens pre-tri, then what happens to the people that are left behind? I guess that would be when the tribulation begins when the Anti Christ is released on Earth. But when is Jesus supposed to reign on Earth for 1000 years? I was thinking that He'd do that when He returns to take us to Heaven. But that would also mean that He wouldn't be in Heaven with us if He's reigning on Earth.

I used this as a pre-tri perspective, but I also don't know how this would work mid or post tribulation.

vinsight4u8
Nov 12th 2008, 01:32 PM
For a simple and quick look at how things will unfold - go to Rev. 19.
See how salvation is part of the beginning of the chapter - then read Hebrews 9:28 - as shows that Jesus will appear at the time of salvation.

Okay, so let the rapture happen at the start of the chapter - and then read v2 as to how the city that corrupted the earth is also to be taken down at the same time.
Mystery, Babylon - the great tribulation slayer of the church - will go down at the start of chapter 19 too.

So let the tribulation against the church be over and then read on and soon we come to the marriage moment -
After this - keep going and you will find that armies dressed in the same attire as the saints received at the marriage event time - will come down from heaven.

One of these armies will head to fight at Armageddon against the beast.

In Rev. 20 - they will sit to reign
and the other army group (the trib had victory already over the beast people) will also sit to reign.

Satan was bound for 1000 years - and Christ reigns on the earth with His saints (that eventually all had victory over the beast)

DurbanDude
Nov 12th 2008, 02:35 PM
I haven't studied the end times. I feel that you should be ready to meet your maker at any time, so why concern yourself with trying to figure out when He'll return.

But I do have some questions that have came to my mind the past coupld of days that I can't figure out. I don't have any opinions ts on pre- mid or post tribulation. I don't understand how pre-tribulation would work? From what I know is when Jesus returns the dead in Christ are to ascend to Him, then we that are still living will ascend. Then what? If this happens pre-tri, then what happens to the people that are left behind? I guess that would be when the tribulation begins when the Anti Christ is released on Earth. But when is Jesus supposed to reign on Earth for 1000 years? I was thinking that He'd do that when He returns to take us to Heaven. But that would also mean that He wouldn't be in Heaven with us if He's reigning on Earth.

I used this as a pre-tri perspective, but I also don't know how this would work mid or post tribulation.

To explain the difference, pre-tribbers believe Jesus comes twice, the first time he just meets us in the air and takes us back to heaven. The tribulation then occurs without the raptured Christians on earth. Then Jesus comes again (with all us raptured heavenly saints) at the end of the tribulation and sets up his 1000 year reign with us here on earth.

Post-tribbers believe Christians will go through the tribulation , and will be raptured (at the resurrection) when Jesus comes again. We will be raptured into the heavenly realms to avoid the final judgements that happen on earth on the day of the Lord, but on that same day God will set up His 1000 year reign on earth and we will be at peace on earth with our resurrected bodies.

I believe in post-trib.

quiet dove
Nov 12th 2008, 07:19 PM
I haven't studied the end times. I feel that you should be ready to meet your maker at any time, so why concern yourself with trying to figure out when He'll return.

But I do have some questions that have came to my mind the past coupld of days that I can't figure out. I don't have any opinions ts on pre- mid or post tribulation. I don't understand how pre-tribulation would work? From what I know is when Jesus returns the dead in Christ are to ascend to Him, then we that are still living will ascend. Then what? If this happens pre-tri, then what happens to the people that are left behind? I guess that would be when the tribulation begins when the Anti Christ is released on Earth. But when is Jesus supposed to reign on Earth for 1000 years? I was thinking that He'd do that when He returns to take us to Heaven. But that would also mean that He wouldn't be in Heaven with us if He's reigning on Earth.

I used this as a pre-tri perspective, but I also don't know how this would work mid or post tribulation.

The pre trib rapture does not have Christ returning to earth, but it has Him calling us to Him, "meeting Him in the clouds" along with the dead in Christ, also meeting Him in the clouds. And we will be forever with Him. Pre trib does not have Him coming twice!

Revelation 19 describes His Second Advent, His return to earth, and His saints are with Him. Then He reigns upon the earth for the thousand years.

John146
Nov 12th 2008, 08:37 PM
The pre trib rapture does not have Christ returning to earth, but it has Him calling us to Him, "meeting Him in the clouds" along with the dead in Christ, also meeting Him in the clouds. And we will be forever with Him. Pre trib does not have Him coming twice!But you believe in two future parousias of Christ.

1 Thess 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Greek word for "coming" in that verse is parousia (Strong's G3952). The same word used in the following passages:

Matt 24
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thess 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1 Thess 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

But there will not be two future parousias of Christ. Christ Himself only spoke of one. And it will occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and not before "there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed". And He will be coming "with all his saints" which refers to "them also which sleep in Jesus" which will be coming with Him at His one and only future parousia (1 Thess 4:14).

quiet dove
Nov 12th 2008, 08:54 PM
I am not going to debate the word parousia. We have context in scripture of us meeting Him in the clouds, context of Him returning with His saints. And we have context of angels gathering the elect. The tearing apart of the word parousia changes nothing of the context.

John146
Nov 12th 2008, 09:01 PM
I am not going to debate the word parousia. We have context in scripture of us meeting Him in the clouds, context of Him returning with His saints. And we have context of angels gathering the elect. The tearing apart of the word parousia changes nothing of the context.You don't have to do anything you don't want to do but I showed the context of how the parousia of Christ should be understood. His parousia will occur after the tribulation of those days and not before the massive falling away and man of sin is revealed. And both Jesus and Paul only spoke of one parousia of Christ, not two.

DurbanDude
Nov 13th 2008, 07:01 AM
The pre trib rapture does not have Christ returning to earth, but it has Him calling us to Him, "meeting Him in the clouds" along with the dead in Christ, also meeting Him in the clouds. And we will be forever with Him. Pre trib does not have Him coming twice!

Revelation 19 describes His Second Advent, His return to earth, and His saints are with Him. Then He reigns upon the earth for the thousand years.

Hi QD,

I see that you don't want to "tear apart" the word "parousia" with John146 , but you started the focus on the word "coming" yourself. I posted that pre-tribs believe in 2 comings and yours was the next post saying pre-tribs believe in only 1 coming. You obviously felt it was necessary to focus on this word , even though you describe the same event that I described (meeting in the clouds) but say this is not a "coming". I think in the context of you contradicting me in the next post, it was entirely correct of John146 to show you that in fact pre-tribbers believe in two comings.

yoSAMite
Nov 13th 2008, 07:07 PM
It seems as even though the same word is used, it doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be same event.

Rapture -
Translation of believers
Translated saints go to heaven
Earth not judged
Imminent, any moment, signless
Not in the Old Testament
Believers Only
Before the Day of Wrath

2nd Coming -
No translation involved
Translated saints return toearth
Earth judged
Follows definite predicted signs
Predicted in the Old Testament
Affects all men on the earth
Concludes the Day of Wrath

An analogy would be like talking about "the football game" are we talking soccer or American Football, the Packers-Bears game or local high school game.

third hero
Nov 13th 2008, 07:14 PM
It seems as even though the same word is used, it doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be same event.

Rapture -
Translation of believers
Translated saints go to heaven
Earth not judged
Imminent, any moment, signless
Not in the Old Testament
Believers Only
Before the Day of Wrath

Your evidence of these definitions, especially in light of 1 Thessalonians 4:15, Matthew 24:29, and Revelation 14:14-20?


2nd Coming -
No translation involved
Translated saints return toearth
Earth judged
Follows definite predicted signs
Predicted in the Old Testament
Affects all men on the earth
Concludes the Day of Wrath

I repeat the same question above.


An analogy would be like talking about "the football game" are we talking soccer or American Football, the Packers-Bears game or local high school game.


Naturally, I do not agree with any of these terms. According to scripture, the "rapture" as defined by Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, and the second coming of the Lord are in fact part of the same event that happens concurrently.

quiet dove
Nov 13th 2008, 07:55 PM
Hi QD,

I see that you don't want to "tear apart" the word "parousia" with John146 , but you started the focus on the word "coming" yourself. I posted that pre-tribs believe in 2 comings and yours was the next post saying pre-tribs believe in only 1 coming. You obviously felt it was necessary to focus on this word , even though you describe the same event that I described (meeting in the clouds) but say this is not a "coming". I think in the context of you contradicting me in the next post, it was entirely correct of John146 to show you that in fact pre-tribbers believe in two comings.

No, I didn't feel it necessary to focus on the word coming, I felt in necessary to correct the statement that pre trib believes in two Second Advents of Christ. And as I said, the word coming does define the context, only an event within the context. Coming back, coming for, coming with. Coming in the clouds, coming to the earth. Coming is not the entire context or definition of the event spoken of.

yoSAMite
Nov 13th 2008, 08:54 PM
third hero asked for some Bible verses:

I'll give it a try. I'll list the differences like this Rapture/2nd Coming, then provide some verses.

translation of believers/No translation involved
1 Corinthians 15:51-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18/none

Translated saints go to heaven/Translated saints return to earth
1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4:17 (caught up)/Jude 1:14, Rev 19:11-20:6

Earth not judged/Earth judged
none/Jude 1:15, Matt 25, Rev 20:4

Imminent, any moment signless/Follows definite predicted signs
Titus 2:13, 1 Th 1:10/

Not in the Old Testament/Predicted in the Old Testament
none/1800+ references OT, 300+ in NT

Believers Only/Affects all men on the earth
1 Cor 15/Matt 25

Before the Day of Wrath/concludes the Day of Wrath
1 Thes 5:9, Luke 21:36/Matt 24:29

divaD
Nov 13th 2008, 11:08 PM
Revelation 19 describes His Second Advent, His return to earth, and His saints are with Him.


Let's look at this from a post-trib perspective. Christ returns at the end of the trib. The dead in Christ rise first. Those that are alive and remain are caught up to meet Christ in the air and are forever with Him. When Christ is returning, where is He returning to? The earth. And if all the saints are to be forever with Him, then it's only logical that this is how it occurs after the trib, IOW it doen't have to occur before the trib in order to be logical. It can also occur after the trib and still be logical as well. If the above events transpire before Christ touches the ground, then this would explain why all of the saints are with Him. Some have been resurrected, some have been changed in the twinkling of an eye, and these would be with Him as He literally returns to the earth.

holpcs2
Nov 14th 2008, 02:19 AM
Interesting responses.. I consider myself a pre-tribber and believe He will come twice - first to rapture the church, and again to rule the earth.

quiet dove
Nov 14th 2008, 03:02 AM
Let's look at this from a post-trib perspective. Christ returns at the end of the trib. The dead in Christ rise first. Those that are alive and remain are caught up to meet Christ in the air and are forever with Him. When Christ is returning, where is He returning to? The earth. And if all the saints are to be forever with Him, then it's only logical that this is how it occurs after the trib, IOW it doen't have to occur before the trib in order to be logical. It can also occur after the trib and still be logical as well. If the above events transpire before Christ touches the ground, then this would explain why all of the saints are with Him. Some have been resurrected, some have been changed in the twinkling of an eye, and these would be with Him as He literally returns to the earth.

If that is logical, then those saint, living and dead, that meet Him in the air, and then come with Him to earth at His Second Advent, I assume were gathered by angles first? And how is it they watched Him come if they were with Him when He came and at what point were they gathered by the angels and separated from the goats, is that before or after they met Him in the clouds to come with Him and see Him coming at the same time?

livingwaters
Nov 14th 2008, 04:28 AM
Hey, hey, I'm with Quite Dove on this matter. We will miss the suffering of the tribulation!!!!! Alleluia!!!!:pp:pp:spin::spin::saint::saint:

DurbanDude
Nov 14th 2008, 07:15 AM
No, I didn't feel it necessary to focus on the word coming, I felt in necessary to correct the statement that pre trib believes in two Second Advents of Christ. And as I said, the word coming does define the context, only an event within the context. Coming back, coming for, coming with. Coming in the clouds, coming to the earth. Coming is not the entire context or definition of the event spoken of.

Coming in the clouds is still a "coming" whether you like the word used in that context or not , the bible certainly uses the word in that context of Jesus coming in the clouds , this was shown to us clearly by the use of the word "parousia" in the "rapture" context and in the second coming context , it is a simple debate. If you are unable to back down on a simple point like this with clear biblical proof , this is possibly an indication why you still remain with the pre-trib rapture viewpoint despite so much evidence to the contrary. Why not simply agree that both are a "coming", they are , the bible says so.

Raybob
Nov 14th 2008, 08:03 AM
... But when is Jesus supposed to reign on Earth for 1000 years? I was thinking that He'd do that when He returns to take us to Heaven. But that would also mean that He wouldn't be in Heaven with us if He's reigning on Earth.

Jesus went to prepare a place for us. That place He is preparing is clearly the new earth.

2Pe 3:10-13
(10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Isa 65:17
(17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Rev 21:1
(1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

As for Christ's reign on this earth, that "1000 years" is symbolic of a "long period of time" from the first advent until the second advent. Revelation is NOT a chronological book any more than Daniel or Ezekiel or any other prophetic book.

IMHO,
Raybob

quiet dove
Nov 14th 2008, 05:44 PM
Coming in the clouds is still a "coming" whether you like the word used in that context or not , the bible certainly uses the word in that context of Jesus coming in the clouds , this was shown to us clearly by the use of the word "parousia" in the "rapture" context and in the second coming context , it is a simple debate. If you are unable to back down on a simple point like this with clear biblical proof , this is possibly an indication why you still remain with the pre-trib rapture viewpoint despite so much evidence to the contrary. Why not simply agree that both are a "coming", they are , the bible says so.


Like I said in my other post, you have all these things happening at the same time and no, I have not seen anyone explain the differences in the context of the events described. I will not build my understanding around the word when it is a factor in an event, and not the determiner of the entire event

Scripture tells us these things will happen:

1)The dead in Christ rising, the living changed and meeting Him in the clouds. TOGETHER

2)His saints coming with Him.

3)The angels gathering the elect.

4)The separation of the goats and the sheep.

And I am the one hanging on to an arugment? Explain to me then, the scenario of all those things happening at the same time.

DurbanDude
Nov 14th 2008, 06:27 PM
Like I said in my other post, you have all these things happening at the same time and no, I have not seen anyone explain the differences in the context of the events described. I will not build my understanding around the word when it is a factor in an event, and not the determiner of the entire event

Scripture tells us these things will happen:

1)The dead in Christ rising, the living changed and meeting Him in the clouds. TOGETHER

2)His saints coming with Him.

3)The angels gathering the elect.

4)The separation of the goats and the sheep.

And I am the one hanging on to an arugment? Explain to me then, the scenario of all those things happening at the same time.

Hi QD, I wasn't expecting this to become a pre-trib / post trib debate but happy to delve into this. I was just pointing out that the pre-trib belief involved 2 comings; a "coming" in the clouds , and then the final coming of Christ. This is a belief I know you completely agree with , so I was a bit taken aback that you didn't want to use the word "coming" when associated with the initial rapture when the bible itself calls this rapture moment a "coming in the clouds".

It is not a complicated scenario, my views differ in many ways from the standard post-trib belief.

After an antichrist comes to world power and sets himself up as God in Jerusalem, there will be a 3.5 year period of great tribulation. This antichrist is in Israel during an attack from his enemies, he is alarmed by reports from the east and the north (Daniel 11) , (I believe this is Gog with its Arab allies). The two mighty armies meet in Armageddon. Gog is about to destroy Jerusalem with the front of its army at mount Zion. The Jews of Jerusalem cry out to God to protect them , and recognise Jesus as their Messiah and repent.

Jesus himself comes in the clouds in response, all believers are resurrected at that moment. The living believers see the dead in Christ rise first , and then the living believers join the saints with Christ in the clouds. This is the gathering of the elect by the angels , I don't know if we will see angels actually gathering the dead in Christ from their graves, or gathering the living saints, or if these angels will be invisible.The bible says the angels will gather the elect.

Jesus is then together with His saints in the clouds , and the ungodly run and try to hide in fear. There is a great earthquake and a great destruction of all the armies gathered in Israel ,and then Jesus sets up the New Jerusalem and brings peace to Israel on that day. The separation of the goats and the sheep happens at the moment of resurrection , only the true sheep meet Jesus in the air, the goats are left behind on earth.
Jesus together with His saints then rule earth for the 1000 years.

Tanya~
Nov 14th 2008, 07:08 PM
Hi LBF! :)


I haven't studied the end times. I feel that you should be ready to meet your maker at any time, so why concern yourself with trying to figure out when He'll return.

You are right, we should be ready to meet our maker at any time. It is good though, to learn about end times ("eschatology") because it is an important theme in the Bible. Learning about end times isn't about trying to figure out when Jesus will return, but about how we are to prepare ourselves for His return, whatever one believes about that. Jesus taught that we are to watch and pray about it, so it is reasonable to learn about it in order to be able to do that.



But I do have some questions that have came to my mind the past coupld of days that I can't figure out. The subject is large and as you can see from the responses you have already received, there are many different ideas about it, and it can quickly become very confusing. I would like to address your question specifically:


I don't have any opinions ts on pre- mid or post tribulation. I don't understand how pre-tribulation would work? From what I know is when Jesus returns the dead in Christ are to ascend to Him, then we that are still living will ascend. Then what? If this happens pre-tri, then what happens to the people that are left behind? According to the pretrib view, the presence of believers in the world prevents the Antichrist from taking power. At the proper time, Jesus will catch up the living believers (the church) from the earth, and this will enable the Antichrist to set things in motion for 7 years of Tribulation. At first all will be relatively peaceful, but after he has been in power for 3.5 years, he will persecute the Jews. At this time, God will raise up 144,000 Jews to be witnesses, and their work will save many people in the world from all tongues, tribes and nations. These are called "Tribulation Saints" and they will be persecuted and killed by Antichrist. The ungodly people who worship the Antichrist will be destroyed. Meanwhile, Jesus is having a Marriage Supper with the Church in heaven. At the end, Jesus along with the church, returns to earth to destroy the Antichrist, cast Satan in the pit so he can't deceive people, and reign for 1,000 years.

That's it in a nutshell and of course there is more to it than that, but that should help you to understand what happens with the different groups of people according to the pretrib view.

I was taught and believed the pretrib view when I became a believer and did hold that view for about 10 years or so before coming to the view I have now. My personal view is post trib for a variety of reasons but I won't get into that here since that wasn't your question.

What does your church teach about this subject? I would just encourage you to start there, and learn what you can (it takes time), and compare what you learn with the Scriptures in context. If you pursue it you will eventually come to a view that makes sense to you. You can see in this forum that people are very passionate about what they believe about end times. But your first thought is what is most important. Grow in your faith so that no matter what happens, you will be strong in your faith in Jesus, and when you do meet Him, you will not be ashamed. I like what the apostle Peter wrote:

2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
NKJV

It is important for us to pursue a godly life as we look for the coming of the Lord. :)

quiet dove
Nov 14th 2008, 07:19 PM
Hi QD, I wasn't expecting this to become a pre-trib / post trib debate but happy to delve into this. I was just pointing out that the pre-trib belief involved 2 comings; a "coming" in the clouds , and then the final coming of Christ. This is a belief I know you completely agree with , so I was a bit taken aback that you didn't want to use the word "coming" when associated with the initial rapture when the bible itself calls this rapture moment a "coming in the clouds".

I didnt intend on debating pre trib vs post trib, I responded to the OP only, but I can't make a statement with out others forcing my hand in terms of explanation.

I didn't say I didn't want to use the word "coming" I said I wanted to use it in the context it was used, not as the entire context.



Jesus himself comes in the clouds in response, all believers are resurrected at that moment. The living believers see the dead in Christ rise first , and then the living believers join the saints with Christ in the clouds. This is the gathering of the elect by the angels , I don't know if we will see angels actually gathering the dead in Christ from their graves, or gathering the living saints, or if these angels will be invisible.The bible says the angels will gather the elect.

Jesus is then together with His saints in the clouds , and the ungodly run and try to hide in fear. There is a great earthquake and a great destruction of all the armies gathered in Israel ,and then Jesus sets up the New Jerusalem and brings peace to Israel on that day. The separation of the goats and the sheep happens at the moment of resurrection , only the true sheep meet Jesus in the air, the goats are left behind on earth.
Jesus together with His saints then rule earth for the 1000 years.--the angels gathering the elect, after Jesus Second Advent
Mar 13:26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

-- the sheep and the goats being separated after Christ has come to earth
Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
The sheep are not in the air or on the clouds, they are set on His right


--the dead and the living, together, meeting Christ in the clouds, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

After Jesus Second Advent the goats are not left on the earth.
Mat 24:51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Rev 19:14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

IMHO, you have not explained how we watch Jesus coming, come with Him, see the angels gather the dead in Christ then with them meet Him in the air and after He has returned Him separating the sheep and the goats.

Amos_with_goats
Nov 14th 2008, 07:32 PM
OP,

Without chasing all the rabbits since your original post....

The dead in Christ shall rise first. The living shall not proceed the dead....

In the pre-trib view, the dead shall rise, the church be raptured, and then those killed in the tribulation who 'become' saints will have to rise later on at some unspecified time... :hmm:

Another idea that does not reconcile with scripture... if you believe pre-trib.

1 thes 4
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Raybob
Nov 14th 2008, 09:17 PM
Scripture tells us these things will happen:

1)The dead in Christ rising, the living changed and meeting Him in the clouds. TOGETHER

2)His saints coming with Him.

3)The angels gathering the elect.

4)The separation of the goats and the sheep.

And I am the one hanging on to an arugment? Explain to me then, the scenario of all those things happening at the same time.

All of these things happen at the second coming of Christ. He will then divide the sheep and the goats. What you don't seem to understand is that:
Sheep = Saints = Elect. Some are now physically dead, some are physically alive as will be when Christ returns. That doesn't change a thing except the seperation on that great and final day!

Joh 6:44
(44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:24
(24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh 12:48
(48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

*Living~By~Faith*
Nov 14th 2008, 09:36 PM
Hi LBF! :)



You are right, we should be ready to meet our maker at any time. It is good though, to learn about end times ("eschatology") because it is an important theme in the Bible. Learning about end times isn't about trying to figure out when Jesus will return, but about how we are to prepare ourselves for His return, whatever one believes about that. Jesus taught that we are to watch and pray about it, so it is reasonable to learn about it in order to be able to do that.

The subject is large and as you can see from the responses you have already received, there are many different ideas about it, and it can quickly become very confusing. I would like to address your question specifically:

According to the pretrib view, the presence of believers in the world prevents the Antichrist from taking power. At the proper time, Jesus will catch up the living believers (the church) from the earth, and this will enable the Antichrist to set things in motion for 7 years of Tribulation. At first all will be relatively peaceful, but after he has been in power for 3.5 years, he will persecute the Jews. At this time, God will raise up 144,000 Jews to be witnesses, and their work will save many people in the world from all tongues, tribes and nations. These are called "Tribulation Saints" and they will be persecuted and killed by Antichrist. The ungodly people who worship the Antichrist will be destroyed. Meanwhile, Jesus is having a Marriage Supper with the Church in heaven. At the end, Jesus along with the church, returns to earth to destroy the Antichrist, cast Satan in the pit so he can't deceive people, and reign for 1,000 years.

That's it in a nutshell and of course there is more to it than that, but that should help you to understand what happens with the different groups of people according to the pretrib view.

I was taught and believed the pretrib view when I became a believer and did hold that view for about 10 years or so before coming to the view I have now. My personal view is post trib for a variety of reasons but I won't get into that here since that wasn't your question.

What does your church teach about this subject? I would just encourage you to start there, and learn what you can (it takes time), and compare what you learn with the Scriptures in context. If you pursue it you will eventually come to a view that makes sense to you. You can see in this forum that people are very passionate about what they believe about end times. But your first thought is what is most important. Grow in your faith so that no matter what happens, you will be strong in your faith in Jesus, and when you do meet Him, you will not be ashamed. I like what the apostle Peter wrote:

2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
NKJV

It is important for us to pursue a godly life as we look for the coming of the Lord. :)

My church believes in pre-tribulation, but I have never heard any detailed discussions or studies on this at my church. My pastor makes comments several times that he's going the first time. I'm beginning to have a different viewpoint on this myself and am more leaning towards post trib. Come to think of it, I'm beginning to have a few different viewpoints than what is taught in my church.

Tanya~
Nov 14th 2008, 10:27 PM
My pastor makes comments several times that he's going the first time. I'm beginning to have a different viewpoint on this myself and am more leaning towards post trib. Come to think of it, I'm beginning to have a few different viewpoints than what is taught in my church.

It's okay to have a different viewpoint on this than your church. My church teaches pretrib too, and I don't agree with some other things the pastor teaches. But it is a Bible-teaching, Christ-centered church and that is very important. If this church helps you to grow in the knowledge of Christ, then you're in the right place even if you don't agree with everything.

quiet dove
Nov 14th 2008, 11:41 PM
All of these things happen at the second coming of Christ. He will then divide the sheep and the goats. What you don't seem to understand is that:
Sheep = Saints = Elect. Some are now physically dead, some are physically alive as will be when Christ returns. That doesn't change a thing except the seperation on that great and final day!

Joh 6:44
(44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:24
(24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh 12:48
(48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I fully understand that sheep, saints and elect can be used interchangeably, but that explains nothing of how all the things I listed happen at the same time, you saying they do is not an explanation.

--how do saints, watch Him come with saints when all the saints get resurrected and changed at the same, one and only time?
--how do the sheep and the goats get separated AFTER He comes at His Second Advent if they all met Him in the air AND apparently came back with Him at the same time as they saw Him coming?
--and the angels are gathering them before the separation which is after He returns so at what point did they meet Him in the air and come with Him?

JaneA
Nov 15th 2008, 12:33 AM
I believe in post-trib. I use to be pre-trib long ago. But after studying scripture I just don't see the pre-trib. I think it will be sort of like in the holocaust when they made Jews out to be bad and dangerous so killing them was okay. It will be the same with Christians and Jews who become Christians, we want recieve the mark, etc. so we will be going against the government. I feel we are very close to those times. Already christians in china and other countries are being persecuted and some killed. We in America think we are exempt but when they( the anti-christians) take away real freedome we will no longer be free to be christians. Thats what I think. The main thing is I'm praying for strength from God to go through and be faithful to Him!!

Raybob
Nov 15th 2008, 01:14 AM
--how do saints, watch Him come with saints when all the saints get resurrected and changed at the same, one and only time?

The dead rise first, then the (living) saints see His coming.

--how do the sheep and the goats get separated AFTER He comes at His Second Advent if they all met Him in the air AND apparently came back with Him at the same time as they saw Him coming?
They don't. They are separated when He comes, NOT after.

--and the angels are gathering them before the separation which is after He returns so at what point did they meet Him in the air and come with Him?
Angels gather who before the separation? The separation happens when He comes. I believe everyone will be marked by the seal of God or the mark of the world system (beast) by the time Jesus returns. That mark of the beast is the same thing as being bundled for burning.

Mat 13:30
(30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Raybob

cwb
Nov 15th 2008, 03:26 AM
IMHO, you have not explained how we watch Jesus coming, come with Him, see the angels gather the dead in Christ then with them meet Him in the air and after He has returned Him separating the sheep and the goats.



Maybe we are really really fast is our new glorified bodies.:D I agree with you though that it is does not make sense all those things happening at the same time. However, not all post trib believers believe it all happens at the same time. Some believe the rapture happens, then the vials of wrath (Rev 16) happens, then He returns to earth with his saints and destroys the beast.

cwb
Nov 15th 2008, 03:36 AM
Hi QD, I wasn't expecting this to become a pre-trib / post trib debate but happy to delve into this. I was just pointing out that the pre-trib belief involved 2 comings; a "coming" in the clouds , and then the final coming of Christ. This is a belief I know you completely agree with , so I was a bit taken aback that you didn't want to use the word "coming" when associated with the initial rapture when the bible itself calls this rapture moment a "coming in the clouds".

It is not a complicated scenario, my views differ in many ways from the standard post-trib belief.

After an antichrist comes to world power and sets himself up as God in Jerusalem, there will be a 3.5 year period of great tribulation. This antichrist is in Israel during an attack from his enemies, he is alarmed by reports from the east and the north (Daniel 11) , (I believe this is Gog with its Arab allies). The two mighty armies meet in Armageddon. Gog is about to destroy Jerusalem with the front of its army at mount Zion. The Jews of Jerusalem cry out to God to protect them , and recognise Jesus as their Messiah and repent.

Jesus himself comes in the clouds in response, all believers are resurrected at that moment. The living believers see the dead in Christ rise first , and then the living believers join the saints with Christ in the clouds. This is the gathering of the elect by the angels , I don't know if we will see angels actually gathering the dead in Christ from their graves, or gathering the living saints, or if these angels will be invisible.The bible says the angels will gather the elect.

Jesus is then together with His saints in the clouds , and the ungodly run and try to hide in fear. There is a great earthquake and a great destruction of all the armies gathered in Israel ,and then Jesus sets up the New Jerusalem and brings peace to Israel on that day. The separation of the goats and the sheep happens at the moment of resurrection , only the true sheep meet Jesus in the air, the goats are left behind on earth.
Jesus together with His saints then rule earth for the 1000 years.

Hi Durban Dude,

I am just trying to understand your viewpoint with the part I highlighted. So is your viewpoint that we stay in the air for 1000 years and rule the earth with Jesus for a 1000 years from the air?

DurbanDude
Nov 15th 2008, 04:41 AM
I didnt intend on debating pre trib vs post trib, I responded to the OP only, but I can't make a statement with out others forcing my hand in terms of explanation.

I didn't say I didn't want to use the word "coming" I said I wanted to use it in the context it was used, not as the entire context.


Sorry about that , I get very focussed sometimes in a discussion and won't let go. Incidentally I never meant to imply a different context.



--the angels gathering the elect, after Jesus Second Advent
Mar 13:26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

-- the sheep and the goats being separated after Christ has come to earth
Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
The sheep are not in the air or on the clouds, they are set on His right



You make a good point here and after research I realised that my placing of the sheep and goats judgement is incorrect. As I was explaining to Romulus on another thread the bible uses a system of progressive fulfilment, in other words two similar events that are many years apart but relate can be clearly described as together in one prophecy and in another prophecy they are described as occurring thousands of years apart.

This explains why the Jews misunderstood the coming of their Messiah , because they didn't realise that predictions related to two comings and not one.This is also why preterists misunderstand the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem , because they fail to realise that there would be two great attacks on Jerusalem both for Jews to fear. The first one involved escaping Jerusalem and exile , and the second involves repentance of the Jews and the 1000 year reign, yet Jesus prophecy runs from the 70 AD prophecy into the far future without a break.

To answer you please read this:

20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I dislike long-winded replies but Rev 20 is so relevant to your comment I had to include it. If we had to place the separation of the goats and sheep into this chapter I feel it can only be 20:11-15 and not 20:4-6 (this is when the souls of the beheaded saints live and rule - the first resurrection). In other words Revelation 20 separates the first resurrection and the final judgement by 1000 years but if you read Matthew 25:31,32 it clearly sounds like they happen immediately together.

The reason I think that Matt 25:32 relates to Rev 20:15:
The rest of Matthew 25 shows how the "goats" are thrown into the lake of fire at that judgment. But Rev 20:15 shows us that only at the resurrection of the unrighteous are the unrighteous thrown into the lake of fire , ie at the end of the 1000 years. During the 1000 year period it is clear from Rev 20 that the dead unrighteous have not been resurrected yet, Satan is in the bottomless pit during this 1000 years and not in the lake of fire , only the beast and the false prophet seem to be in the lake of fire during the millenium.

In summary the bible appears to contradict itself unless you understand the concept of progressive fulfilment of prophecy. Matthew 25 places the second coming at the same time as the final judgment (sheep and goats) involving the unrighteous being cast into the lake of fire. But Revelation 20 separates these two events by 1000 years.

(incidentally, we see a very similar interpretation problem when reading Daniel 12:1-2. Here the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the unrighteous are described as occurring at the same time, yet in Revelation 20 they are 1000 years apart. It just seems to be a consistent pattern that the bible describes far future events by listing them together , even if sometimes they are thousands of years apart.)

DurbanDude
Nov 15th 2008, 05:50 AM
After Jesus Second Advent the goats are not left on the earth.
Mat 24:51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


I feel that there is a lot of evidence to suggest some "goats" do survive. The verse you quoted is a parable and does not pretend to establish a doctrine that ALL the evil will perish.

Evidence of survival of the ungodly during the millenium:

REV 21:25 And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day (for there shall be no night there):
REV 21:26 and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it:
REV 21:27 and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb's book of life.

REV 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right `to come' to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
REV 22:15 Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.

Often pre-tribbers divide believers into pre-trib (raptured) believers and then tribulation saints, believing the tribulation saints are the mortal survivors to go into the millenium , however we just see two divisions here , those that can enter the city and the ungodly who cannot.


Here we see a millenium scenario , where God dwells in Israel:
ZECH 8:3 Thus saith Jehovah: I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called The city of truth; and the mountain of Jehovah of hosts, The holy mountain.
ZECH 8:4 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
ZECH 8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
ZECH 8:6 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith Jehovah of hosts.

ZECH 8:20 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: `It shall' yet `come to pass', that there shall come peoples, and the inhabitants of many cities;
ZECH 8:21 and the inhabitants of one `city' shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to entreat the favor of Jehovah, and to seek Jehovah of hosts: I will go also.
ZECH 8:22 Yea, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek Jehovah of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of Jehovah.
ZECH 8:23 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days `it shall come to pass', that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.

Who do you think are the nations that dwell on earth during the millenium but don't really know God , aren't blessed by God so that they tend to see the Jews as having a special blessing? Why are these Jews mortal (old men in the streets) when the first resurrection has already occurred?

Also Zech 14:16

If you read Zechariah 14, the context is clear:
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

These seem to be survivors who are still sometimes disobedient to God (ungodly survivors) , otherwise why would God threaten them with no rain if there is disobedience?

Isaiah 65:
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Who are these accursed people who don't live beyond 100 years while living during a period of great blessing? If they are accursed surely they are the ungodly? It appears to me that the earth is full of mortal ungodly survivors during Jesus' period of earthly rule. Some who live obediently and some who continue in their ways. There is much blessing and long life , but swift repercussion for the disobedient in that period. The godly will be immortal with resurrected bodies and be allowed into the blessed city, while the ungodly survivors are outside, this is my opinion. The non-resurrected Jewish survivors will be especially blessed among the mortal survivors.


IMHO, you have not explained how we watch Jesus coming, come with Him, see the angels gather the dead in Christ then with them meet Him in the air and after He has returned Him separating the sheep and the goats.



Hopefully it is all explained now, but I will briefly repeat my views:
We the surviving saints will see Jesus in the sky with his angels. The angels will gather the dead first into the clouds, then we will be gathered. All the saints will be in the air with Jesus and the angels during the earthquake and finalisation of the battle of Armageddon, and destruction of that antichrist. Jesus will rule earth , 1000 years later will be the judgement of the sheep and goats involving the lake of fire.

DurbanDude
Nov 15th 2008, 06:10 AM
Hi Durban Dude,

I am just trying to understand your viewpoint with the part I highlighted. So is your viewpoint that we stay in the air for 1000 years and rule the earth with Jesus for a 1000 years from the air?

No, obviously not.