PDA

View Full Version : Dome on the Rock... is this the abomination that desolates?



daughter
Nov 12th 2008, 04:27 PM
Here's something I was considering recently. Daniel describes an "abomination" that is set up where the Jewish Temple should be, an abomination that desolates.

Why do we think of this as some future event, when there is already a potential abomination built on Temple Mount?

Apparently it has this verse inscribed on its wall.

"O you People of the Book, overstep not bounds in your religion, and of God speak only the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of God, and his Word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from him. Believe therefore in God and his apostles, and say not Three. It will be better for you. God is only one God. Far be it from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son."

That would be blasphemy, wouldn't it?

So... how would this effect our timelines and so on? I used to think that the final abomination was some future thing, but what if we've been sitting looking at it all these years, and not even realised?

Thoughts please!

RJ Mac
Nov 12th 2008, 04:47 PM
The abomination of desolation is mentioned in Mt.24:15 and once it is spotted
all Christians are to flee Judea. It is a local occurrence, not world wide event.
It would happen and everyone is to respond when it does. I believe the
prophecy is referring to the Roman army entering Judea to destroy Jerusalem
which occured 68-70 AD. It was written to save the Christians from being lost
in the fall of Jerusalem.

The Arabs have owned Palestine ever since 70 AD. The Muslims have had it
since they came into existence 600 AD. The Jews controlled Palestine for 1400 yrs. BC
The Muslims have had it for 1400 yrs. AD Its a piece of property that today
has no spiritual bearing. God's kingdom is one that is spiritual.

RJ

John146
Nov 12th 2008, 09:13 PM
The abomination of desolation is mentioned in Mt.24:15 and once it is spotted
all Christians are to flee Judea. It is a local occurrence, not world wide event.
It would happen and everyone is to respond when it does. I believe the
prophecy is referring to the Roman army entering Judea to destroy Jerusalem
which occured 68-70 AD. It was written to save the Christians from being lost
in the fall of Jerusalem.

The Arabs have owned Palestine ever since 70 AD. The Muslims have had it
since they came into existence 600 AD. The Jews controlled Palestine for 1400 yrs. BC
The Muslims have had it for 1400 yrs. AD Its a piece of property that today
has no spiritual bearing. God's kingdom is one that is spiritual.

RJI agree. We can compare scripture with scripture to see that the abomination of desolation was to be a local event in Jerusalem and that it occurred when the prophecy regarding the timing of the destruction of the temple was fulfilled, which was around 70 AD.

The similarities of these passages are rather obvious:

Matt 24
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke 21
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The Luke 21 passage is more specific than the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 passages because it was addressed to Gentiles who had no previous knowledge of the teaching regarding the abomination of desolation.

The problem with the futurist view of the Olivet Discourse is that the view acts as if the question regarding when the temple that was standing at that time would be destroyed was not answered. But it was.

But the preterist view of the Olivet Discourse has problems, too, as we know that Jesus has not yet returned and the end of the age has not yet come.

We have to recognize that Jesus answered two different questions regarding two different events, one that was local to Jerusalem and one that was global in scale. Even if the disciples thought that His coming and the end of the age would occur when the temple was destroyed it doesn't mean that was an accurate understanding. Jesus answered based on what He knew was the truth and not based on whatever the disciples may have been assuming regarding the timing of the destruction of the temple relative to the timing of His coming and the end of the age.

Lyndie
Nov 12th 2008, 11:09 PM
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke 21
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

But the a of d is described as an it, not a they, In Mark 13:14. It also says 'standing'. I can see where in Luke 21 someone could understand it meant the invasion. However, many times in scripture similar sayings were used. Just because they both say 'flee to the mountains' doesn't mean they are the same thing. I have considered daughter's theory myself, and it does seem to make sense.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 13th 2008, 01:28 AM
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let (him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains:
Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
Mark 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
Mark 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mark 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Was the affliction of AD70, such as was not from the beginning of the creation, nor at any time after?

Was those days cut short, for the sake of those in Christ?

Why would God bring about their prophesised destruction, and then cut short those days, for their sake?

carboy
Nov 13th 2008, 02:32 AM
I believe the Dome of the Rock is AN abomination. Not THE abomination that makes desolate.

Biblical prophecy is past , present and future.

Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy. Is, was and is to come,the things we have seen, the things which are and the things to come.

Ecclesiastes 3:15 That which is has been already, and that which will be has already been, for God seeks what has past by.

There is a truth in the ways we seem to view prophecy and I believe when put together they form a better understanding of the scriptures.

So prophecy has been fulfilled, prophecy is being fulfilled and prophecy will be fulfilled.

Yes you are looking at a fulfillment of prophecy but I believe there will be a future fulfillment that will leave no question.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 13th 2008, 02:45 AM
The problem with the Dome-of-the-Rock=Abomination-of-Desolation theory is this: Jesus said that as soon as the Abomination was seen in the "Holy Place", everyone was to run at once. Yet the Dome was not built until centuries after the 70 AD Diaspora. In fact, when the Dome was built, the population in the area was primarily Islamic. So when, precisely, was the command to run supposed to be obeyed?

Sounds to me like we're still waiting on it.

Cyberseeker
Nov 13th 2008, 03:43 AM
Here's something I was considering recently. Daniel describes an "abomination" that is set up where the Jewish Temple should be, an abomination that desolates.

Why do we think of this as some future event, when there is already a potential abomination built on Temple Mount?

This is a very good point Daughter. :)

But I would go further. ANYTHING that is built on that site following the final sacrifice is the abomination.


The blasphemous day of atonement sacrifices from AD 33 till AD 70 was the 'abomination'.
The construction of the dome in AD 687 was the 'abomination'.
The planned new temple by modern Zionists Jews is the 'abomination'.
Support to build a temple from deceived fundamentalist Christians is the 'abomination'.

ANYTHING that is built on that site following the final sacrifice is the abomination!

cwb
Nov 13th 2008, 03:15 PM
Here's something I was considering recently. Daniel describes an "abomination" that is set up where the Jewish Temple should be, an abomination that desolates.

Why do we think of this as some future event, when there is already a potential abomination built on Temple Mount?

Apparently it has this verse inscribed on its wall.

"O you People of the Book, overstep not bounds in your religion, and of God speak only the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of God, and his Word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from him. Believe therefore in God and his apostles, and say not Three. It will be better for you. God is only one God. Far be it from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son."

That would be blasphemy, wouldn't it?

So... how would this effect our timelines and so on? I used to think that the final abomination was some future thing, but what if we've been sitting looking at it all these years, and not even realised?

Thoughts please!

When Jesus was talking about the abomination of desolation, he said in matthew 24:21 :



For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


If the dome of the rock is the AOD, then the great tribulation is a very long tribulation (over 1300 years). I'm not ruling it out based on that. Just saying that means the great tribulation Jesus was talking about is a very long one.

cwb
Nov 13th 2008, 03:37 PM
Was the affliction of AD70, such as was not from the beginning of the creation, nor at any time after?

Was those days cut short, for the sake of those in Christ?



The answer to both questions are cleary no.

Not only that. Mathew 24:29 and 30 says:


Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


When Jesus says "those days" he is cleary speaking of the tribulation that occurs at the time of the abomination of desolation. (Just read it in context). If the AOD occured in 70 AD, then the return of Christ would have to have occured then also. I do not believe Christ has returned yet.

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 05:33 PM
I do agree that the Dome on the rock is an abomination, but not THE abomination. I agree with much of what Cyberseeker has said and I have thought before that maybe the Lord allowed the Dome to be built there to stop a temple being built. Knowing full well that some would think it a good idea! :hmm:

:hug: blessings

Cyberseeker
Nov 13th 2008, 07:42 PM
I do agree that the Dome on the rock is an abomination, but not THE abomination. I agree with much of what Cyberseeker has said and I have thought before that maybe the Lord allowed the Dome to be built there to stop a temple being built. Knowing full well that some would think it a good idea! :hmm:

:hug: blessings

Has it occurred to any of us that our modern new-age world may try to turn the dome into a shrine for Jews, Muslims, and Christians - you know - a 'keepeverybodyhappy' alternative.

Just a thought. :hmm:

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 07:44 PM
Has it occurred to any of us that our modern new-age world may try to turn the dome into a shrine for Jews, Muslims, and Christians - you know - a 'keepeverybodyhappy' alternative.

Just a thought. :hmm:

:hmm: Surely the muslims would never allow infidels to go in there?

quiet dove
Nov 13th 2008, 07:59 PM
Has it occurred to any of us that our modern new-age world may try to turn the dome into a shrine for Jews, Muslims, and Christians - you know - a 'keepeverybodyhappy' alternative.

Just a thought. :hmm:

Thats what the interfaith movement is trying to do to religion in general.

IBWatching
Nov 13th 2008, 10:11 PM
Here's something I was considering recently. Daniel describes an "abomination" that is set up where the Jewish Temple should be, an abomination that desolates.

Why do we think of this as some future event, when there is already a potential abomination built on Temple Mount?

Apparently it has this verse inscribed on its wall.

"O you People of the Book, overstep not bounds in your religion, and of God speak only the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of God, and his Word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from him. Believe therefore in God and his apostles, and say not Three. It will be better for you. God is only one God. Far be it from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son."

That would be blasphemy, wouldn't it?

So... how would this effect our timelines and so on? I used to think that the final abomination was some future thing, but what if we've been sitting looking at it all these years, and not even realised?

Thoughts please!


Daniel 11:31 "Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

The abomination is an object which is set up (in real time) by forces (military?) which the antichrist has mustered. It is not the antichrist himself. He comes to sit in the Temple once the abomination has been set up.


Daniel 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations {will come} one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

The placement of the abomination allows the antichrist to come to power. That's why Jesus said to run. The Great Trib is starting. As far as what I think the "abomination" is, I can only give you a "vague" hint:

What God views as an abomination, man may view favorably. ;)

Midwest Bob
Nov 14th 2008, 02:31 PM
Here's something I was considering recently. Daniel describes an "abomination" that is set up where the Jewish Temple should be, an abomination that desolates.

Why do we think of this as some future event, when there is already a potential abomination built on Temple Mount?

Apparently it has this verse inscribed on its wall.

"O you People of the Book, overstep not bounds in your religion, and of God speak only the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of God, and his Word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from him. Believe therefore in God and his apostles, and say not Three. It will be better for you. God is only one God. Far be it from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son."

That would be blasphemy, wouldn't it?

So... how would this effect our timelines and so on? I used to think that the final abomination was some future thing, but what if we've been sitting looking at it all these years, and not even realised?

Thoughts please!

You might find this artcle explaining why the dome of the rock is the abomination that makes desolate interesting Abomination of Desolation (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm)

Edit tried to send you a pm but your inbox is full

BroRog
Nov 14th 2008, 02:54 PM
Here's something I was considering recently. Daniel describes an "abomination" that is set up where the Jewish Temple should be, an abomination that desolates.

Why do we think of this as some future event, when there is already a potential abomination built on Temple Mount?

Apparently it has this verse inscribed on its wall.

"O you People of the Book, overstep not bounds in your religion, and of God speak only the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of God, and his Word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from him. Believe therefore in God and his apostles, and say not Three. It will be better for you. God is only one God. Far be it from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son."

That would be blasphemy, wouldn't it?

So... how would this effect our timelines and so on? I used to think that the final abomination was some future thing, but what if we've been sitting looking at it all these years, and not even realised?

Thoughts please!

One thing to consider as we think about the abomination of desolation.

The phrase "the abomination of desolation" is in the genitive case which means that we have at least two possible ways to look at it depending on the context. Did the author mean to indicate that the "abomination" is the subject and the "desolation" is the object? Or visa versa?

If the abomination is the subject, then the author is indicating that a man will bring an abomination to the temple, which in and of itself, will desolate the temple. But if the desolation is the subject, then the abomination becomes the pretext or the rational for the destruction of the temple.

I believe the AOD of Daniel 11, has the abomination as the subject, which indicates that something will be put in the temple that pollutes it. The AOD of Daniel 9, however has the destruction of the temple as the subject, which indicates that the temple will be destroyed because of an abomination.

The Dome of the Rock fits neither one of these because the Dome was constructed AFTER the temple was already destroyed.

Cliff H
Nov 14th 2008, 03:23 PM
The answer to both questions are cleary no.

Not only that. Mathew 24:29 and 30 says:


When Jesus says "those days" he is cleary speaking of the tribulation that occurs at the time of the abomination of desolation. (Just read it in context). If the AOD occured in 70 AD, then the return of Christ would have to have occured then also. I do not believe Christ has returned yet.


I believe that the destruction of the temple in itself was the SIGN of the Son of man spoken of in Matt 24. Just my .0212

moonglow
Nov 14th 2008, 03:51 PM
I agree the abomination happened in the past, just before the temple was destroyed. People don't agree with this view because they believe Jesus would physically return right after that...I think this is a misunderstanding on that and this helps explain it what returning on a cloud means in bibical terms...its a bit long and if you don't want to read it all at least read the bolded part...the scriptures backing this up are in this article too...many examples of what coming on a cloud means..and its not literal but means judgment.
http://blog.absolutetruth.us

Let me start by saying the reason why the church has missed the meaning of so many verses is because of the lack up understanding the (language, culture, politics and historical setting in which the Bible was originally written. The first thing we MUST do is study to see what the language meant to them in there historical and culture setting.

How were they to understand the term (every eye will see him). The first thing we must do is see how that term was used in the Old Testament historical setting. How was that language used before?

Historical Background.

It seems to have escaped the notice that this language was used before. Surely the Bible student will want to be fully aware of how the verse is used before in contexts.

And I will pour out on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and prayers. And they (i.e., the inhabitants of Jerusalem) shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for Him. As one mourns for an only son, and will be bitter over Him like the bitterness over the firstborn. In that day (i.e., when they look on Him whom they had pierced) the mourning in Jerusalem will be great, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, families by families alone; the family of the house of David alone, and their wives alone; the family of Nathan alone, and their wives alone; the family of the house of Levi alone, and their wives alone; the family of Shimei alone, and their wives alone; all the families who are left, family by family alone, and their wives alone. (Zechariah 12:10-14.)

Interestingly, John the author of Revelation used Zechariah 12:10-14. The main purpose of Revelation would be to reveal of Jesus to the nation of Israel. The place of this revealing would be Jerusalem. Lastly, this revealing would be to those who pierced Him, i.e., the Jews.

The Hebrew word for family in Zechariah is mishpachah and it means family; by extension a tribe or people. So, in essence, Zechariah was saying that the tribes of the land would mourn for Him whom they had pierced. Who were those tribes? The inhabitants of Jerusalem. This also helps us identify the earth in Revelation 1:7. According to Zechariah, the earth is the land of Palestine, specifically, Jerusalem. Also, it is those tribes, i.e., the nation of Israel, who would look on Me whom they had pierced. And because of that, the mourning in Jerusalem would be great. With all of this information, we can see that the tribes of the earth in Revelation 1:7are the nation of Israel. The earth is Palestine. The land that would mourn is Jerusalem.

Notice also that Zechariah does NOT say all the world will see him. Zechariah says the inhabitants of Jerusalem would see him.

We must keep the simple rule of letting Scripture interpret Scripture. Or finding out how they understood the language. In John 19:37 as Jesus hung on the cross the event was also a fulfillment of Zechariah's words

As shown Zechariah 12:10-14 is the background for Revelation 1:7 and the context demands the event be in the first century generation. Our Lord also employed the language of Zechariah/Revelation in such a way that all controversy as to WHEN and WHO it would happen should be dispelled

I don't know who completely ignore the context of Zechariah/Revelation by saying we will all see Him with our spiritual eyes at the point of death, therefore all will indeed see Him at the point in our individual transition.

I agree this person completely side steps all the context. Now lets see how they understood the verses about clouds in there original language, culture, and historical setting in which they were written.

How did they understand the language about clouds in the Old Testament culture setting?

Clouds are depicted as the chariots of God and indicative of his MAJESTY. In Job 22:12ff Job exalts Jehovah as the one who is in the height of heaven and covered with thick clouds. In Psalm 18 which is a highly apocalyptic description of David's deliverance from Saul the former shepherd tells how Jehovah bowed the heavens...and came down with darkness under his feet, he rode upon a cherub, and flew; He flew upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness His secret place; His canopy around Him was dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. Now one can look but in vain to find a physical event matching these words. Jehovah had acted to deliver his servant and thus he had come. He had acted and his actions had vindicated his righteousness, thus he was depicted as coming in majesty in the clouds. Psalm 68:32-35 also speaks of God who rides on the heaven of heavens and his strength is in the clouds. Again the concept is his majesty and sovereignty. Psalms 104:3 tells us God makes the clouds his chariots and walks on the wings of the wind.

The idea of God's coming in the clouds is also associated with the exercise of his sovereignty in JUDGING his enemies. In Isaiah 19 Jehovah rides on a swift cloud and will come into Egypt. We know from chapter 20 that it was the Assyrians who were God's instrument of wrath on Egypt, see Isaiah 20:1-4; yet it is said that Jehovah was coming on a cloud. In Zephaniah 1:14-16 we are told the great day of the Lord is near; and that it would be a day of wrath, distress, and a day of clouds, when the Lord would come. We know this is a prediction of the impending judgment on Jerusalem, 1:4ff. This judgment came in 606-586 BC.

Similar language is found in Nahum in the prediction of Nineveh's fall. Jehovah has his way in the whirlwind...and the clouds are the dust of his feet. El Shaddai would come, the mountains would melt, the earth would be destroyed at his presence when he came on the clouds. We know that Nineveh was destroyed, not by a literal coming of Jehovah out of heaven on the clouds, but by the invading armies of the Chaldeans and Medes in approximately 612 BC.

Yet another though related concept of the coming with the clouds is the Messianic motif of Daniel. In Daniel 7 one like the Son of man is depicted as coming in the clouds of heaven. This concept of Messiah on the clouds was certainly one well known in the first century. For John to say in Revelation 1:7 that Jesus would come with the clouds was nothing less than an assertion of his Messianic role as the ruler of the kingdom of God. In his coming in the clouds he was exercising the sovereignty and demonstrating the majesty of deity so well known in the Old Covenant. The idea is not a literal coming with the clouds so much as an identifying factor of the one under consideration. He is to be viewed not just as man but the One, who, like Jehovah, rides on the clouds. The association of Jesus coming in the clouds then was a way for the Biblical writers to IDENTIFY Jesus, in a manner well known to those conversant with Old Testament symbolism, as God's Messiah, as the Judge, worthy of majesty and honor.

This is precisely the thought Jesus was conveying to Caiaphas when he told him he would see him coming in the clouds. When Jesus said he was going to come in the clouds this was a claim to the Messianic office and divine nature; Caiaphas responded, He has spoken blasphemy Caiaphas was not responding to a claim that Jesus would literally return on a physical cloud. He was responding to the IDENTITY which Jesus was claiming by associating himself as the one to come in the clouds of heaven

One final thought. We would note the New Testament TIME FRAME for the coming of Jesus in the clouds. Patently Jesus told Caiaphas he would see Jesus' return in the clouds. He did not say he would die and millenia later be resurrected to view the parousia. He was living and was told he would witness Jesus' return, which we hope is now understood to be the exercise of his Messianic sovereignty by an act of judgment.

In Matthew 24:30-34 we are told emphatically that the disciples' generation would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. Reader, how can the honest student of the word ignore such emphatic chronological parameters? How can we divorce Revelation 1:7 and the promise of the coming in the clouds, from Revelation 1:1-3 and the prediction it must shortly come to pass and was at hand ?

All these things are profound but easily understood as long as we take the time to study them in their original (language, culture, politics and historical setting in which the Bible was originally written.
**********************************

One day Jesus will physically return.

God bless

Prophecy Countdown
Nov 16th 2008, 08:46 AM
Here's something I was considering recently. Daniel describes an "abomination" that is set up where the Jewish Temple should be, an abomination that desolates.

Why do we think of this as some future event, when there is already a potential abomination built on Temple Mount?

Apparently it has this verse inscribed on its wall.

"O you People of the Book, overstep not bounds in your religion, and of God speak only the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of God, and his Word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from him. Believe therefore in God and his apostles, and say not Three. It will be better for you. God is only one God. Far be it from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son."

That would be blasphemy, wouldn't it?

So... how would this effect our timelines and so on? I used to think that the final abomination was some future thing, but what if we've been sitting looking at it all these years, and not even realised?

Thoughts please!

Hi daughter
The set up of the abomination of desolation is only for 1290 days according to the last vision of Daniel and the Mosque has been there for much longer than that restricted time span so I don’t think the abomination of desolation is the Mosque.:idea:

Daniel 12: 11.And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The word 'Sacrifice' was written in italics in the king James Version indicating it was added to the above verse and was not found in the original version of Daniel 12: 11 from the Ancient Red Sea Scrolls found in 1947.

The above verse is referring to the ‘Place Of The Daily’ which is the 'outer court' of the Jewish Temple.
The ‘Place Of The Daily’ or ‘Outer Court’ is as far as the general public got, the other places were off limits and will be again if a third Temple is built.:(

Revelation 13: 14 – 17 speaks of the ‘image of the beast,’ what if that thing is rolled into the outer court for 1290 days?
As far as the Mount is concerned then please read the following verses to see who actually sits there in the future.

Isaiah 14: 14.How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I WILL SIT UPON THE MOUNT of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, andsaying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17THAT MADE THE WORLD A WILDERNESS, AND DESTROYED THE CITIES THEREOF that opened not the house of his prisoners? consider thee,

The world is not yet a 'wilderness' and the 'cities' are not yet destroyed so that is yet to occur.
If we read Rev 13: 11 – 14 we can see Satan, the other beast culprit that gives power to the first beast.

Revelation 13: 11. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had TWO HORNS LIKE A LAMB, AND HE SPAKE AS A DRAGON.

12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:[1] (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1)

PC.:hug:

[1] (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftnref1)The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

areu4jesus2falcon
Nov 16th 2008, 06:23 PM
Hi all
I would like to answer this now ,first I need to pray about it get things in order we may need to take some rabbit trails to understand what is going on .
I know in my mind about this but I want to explain things correctly as to not confuse someone AND CHRIST may get all the glory :pp

AS you can tell IM new here first post ,

thanks falcongts

Lyndie
Nov 18th 2008, 07:28 PM
I've been doing some reading on this, and for the most part, it is not a mosque, but a shrine.

http://www.templemount.org/allah.html
http://www.the-world-in-focus.com/Middle_East/Israel/Jerusalem/templemount.html

Kinda changes things a bit, at least from my understanding.

daughter
Nov 18th 2008, 08:17 PM
Wow, thank you all for the stacks of information, links, and leads for me to go check up on. You've all been busy... thank you very much!

I particularly like BroRog's grammatical points, and Moonglow as always has some great points. Now I'm off to check Lyndie's material. Thank you all again!

Saved!
Nov 18th 2008, 10:41 PM
I will tell you about my experience at the Dome of the Rock incase that helps at all. Please keep in mind that I visited in 1998...I was a Christian but had done very little study and knew nothing at all about Muslims.

When our group was outside of the Dome of the Rock awaiting our turn, an Islamic man was loudly "hawking" his wares...souveniers. The informal "guard" at the door took no notice of him. When our group raised our voices just speaking with each other this guard reprimanded us (a group of Christians).

The ladies had to cover up quite a bit (I was OK with that... because I am very modest anyway.) Inside there was a huge, huge smooth rock that took up most of the space inside with a walking area around it. There was not the typical empty space where Muslims would lay out their "rugs" (I don't know the name of the prayer rugs) and prostrate themselves. So, it did appear to be a shrine for the rock and not a mosque.

I dearly wish that I had known then what I know now and could have paid better attention.

So much of Israel felt like "home"....I am not Jewish, the experience of feeling ownership of this land came as quite an unexpected shock to me...but I felt like a vistor in the Dome of the Rock - not exactly welcome.

Amos_with_goats
Nov 18th 2008, 11:02 PM
I believe the Dome of the Rock is AN abomination.....

Amen.


.......So much of Israel felt like "home"....I am not Jewish, the experience of feeling ownership of this land came as quite an unexpected shock to me....

Yes, I know what you are talking about. I felt the same way.

WRT the Blemish on the Temple Mount, I pray for the peace of Jerusalem as we are instructed to do... but I would not mind if someone used a bulldozer to clear that rubbish off...

danlevans
Nov 19th 2008, 03:39 AM
I agree the abomination happened in the past, just before the temple was destroyed. People don't agree with this view because they believe Jesus would physically return right after that...I think this is a misunderstanding on that and this helps explain it what returning on a cloud means in bibical terms...its a bit long and if you don't want to read it all at least read the bolded part...the scriptures backing this up are in this article too...many examples of what coming on a cloud means..and its not literal but means judgment.
http://blog.absolutetruth.us

Let me start by saying the reason why the church has missed the meaning of so many verses is because of the lack up understanding the (language, culture, politics and historical setting in which the Bible was originally written. The first thing we MUST do is study to see what the language meant to them in there historical and culture setting.

How were they to understand the term (every eye will see him). The first thing we must do is see how that term was used in the Old Testament historical setting. How was that language used before?

Historical Background.

It seems to have escaped the notice that this language was used before. Surely the Bible student will want to be fully aware of how the verse is used before in contexts.

And I will pour out on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and prayers. And they (i.e., the inhabitants of Jerusalem) shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for Him. As one mourns for an only son, and will be bitter over Him like the bitterness over the firstborn. In that day (i.e., when they look on Him whom they had pierced) the mourning in Jerusalem will be great, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, families by families alone; the family of the house of David alone, and their wives alone; the family of Nathan alone, and their wives alone; the family of the house of Levi alone, and their wives alone; the family of Shimei alone, and their wives alone; all the families who are left, family by family alone, and their wives alone. (Zechariah 12:10-14.)

Interestingly, John the author of Revelation used Zechariah 12:10-14. The main purpose of Revelation would be to reveal of Jesus to the nation of Israel. The place of this revealing would be Jerusalem. Lastly, this revealing would be to those who pierced Him, i.e., the Jews.

The Hebrew word for family in Zechariah is mishpachah and it means family; by extension a tribe or people. So, in essence, Zechariah was saying that the tribes of the land would mourn for Him whom they had pierced. Who were those tribes? The inhabitants of Jerusalem. This also helps us identify the earth in Revelation 1:7. According to Zechariah, the earth is the land of Palestine, specifically, Jerusalem. Also, it is those tribes, i.e., the nation of Israel, who would look on Me whom they had pierced. And because of that, the mourning in Jerusalem would be great. With all of this information, we can see that the tribes of the earth in Revelation 1:7are the nation of Israel. The earth is Palestine. The land that would mourn is Jerusalem.

Notice also that Zechariah does NOT say all the world will see him. Zechariah says the inhabitants of Jerusalem would see him.

We must keep the simple rule of letting Scripture interpret Scripture. Or finding out how they understood the language. In John 19:37 as Jesus hung on the cross the event was also a fulfillment of Zechariah's words

As shown Zechariah 12:10-14 is the background for Revelation 1:7 and the context demands the event be in the first century generation. Our Lord also employed the language of Zechariah/Revelation in such a way that all controversy as to WHEN and WHO it would happen should be dispelled

I don't know who completely ignore the context of Zechariah/Revelation by saying we will all see Him with our spiritual eyes at the point of death, therefore all will indeed see Him at the point in our individual transition.

I agree this person completely side steps all the context. Now lets see how they understood the verses about clouds in there original language, culture, and historical setting in which they were written.

How did they understand the language about clouds in the Old Testament culture setting?

Clouds are depicted as the chariots of God and indicative of his MAJESTY. In Job 22:12ff Job exalts Jehovah as the one who is in the height of heaven and covered with thick clouds. In Psalm 18 which is a highly apocalyptic description of David's deliverance from Saul the former shepherd tells how Jehovah bowed the heavens...and came down with darkness under his feet, he rode upon a cherub, and flew; He flew upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness His secret place; His canopy around Him was dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. Now one can look but in vain to find a physical event matching these words. Jehovah had acted to deliver his servant and thus he had come. He had acted and his actions had vindicated his righteousness, thus he was depicted as coming in majesty in the clouds. Psalm 68:32-35 also speaks of God who rides on the heaven of heavens and his strength is in the clouds. Again the concept is his majesty and sovereignty. Psalms 104:3 tells us God makes the clouds his chariots and walks on the wings of the wind.

The idea of God's coming in the clouds is also associated with the exercise of his sovereignty in JUDGING his enemies. In Isaiah 19 Jehovah rides on a swift cloud and will come into Egypt. We know from chapter 20 that it was the Assyrians who were God's instrument of wrath on Egypt, see Isaiah 20:1-4; yet it is said that Jehovah was coming on a cloud. In Zephaniah 1:14-16 we are told the great day of the Lord is near; and that it would be a day of wrath, distress, and a day of clouds, when the Lord would come. We know this is a prediction of the impending judgment on Jerusalem, 1:4ff. This judgment came in 606-586 BC.

Similar language is found in Nahum in the prediction of Nineveh's fall. Jehovah has his way in the whirlwind...and the clouds are the dust of his feet. El Shaddai would come, the mountains would melt, the earth would be destroyed at his presence when he came on the clouds. We know that Nineveh was destroyed, not by a literal coming of Jehovah out of heaven on the clouds, but by the invading armies of the Chaldeans and Medes in approximately 612 BC.

Yet another though related concept of the coming with the clouds is the Messianic motif of Daniel. In Daniel 7 one like the Son of man is depicted as coming in the clouds of heaven. This concept of Messiah on the clouds was certainly one well known in the first century. For John to say in Revelation 1:7 that Jesus would come with the clouds was nothing less than an assertion of his Messianic role as the ruler of the kingdom of God. In his coming in the clouds he was exercising the sovereignty and demonstrating the majesty of deity so well known in the Old Covenant. The idea is not a literal coming with the clouds so much as an identifying factor of the one under consideration. He is to be viewed not just as man but the One, who, like Jehovah, rides on the clouds. The association of Jesus coming in the clouds then was a way for the Biblical writers to IDENTIFY Jesus, in a manner well known to those conversant with Old Testament symbolism, as God's Messiah, as the Judge, worthy of majesty and honor.

This is precisely the thought Jesus was conveying to Caiaphas when he told him he would see him coming in the clouds. When Jesus said he was going to come in the clouds this was a claim to the Messianic office and divine nature; Caiaphas responded, He has spoken blasphemy Caiaphas was not responding to a claim that Jesus would literally return on a physical cloud. He was responding to the IDENTITY which Jesus was claiming by associating himself as the one to come in the clouds of heaven

One final thought. We would note the New Testament TIME FRAME for the coming of Jesus in the clouds. Patently Jesus told Caiaphas he would see Jesus' return in the clouds. He did not say he would die and millenia later be resurrected to view the parousia. He was living and was told he would witness Jesus' return, which we hope is now understood to be the exercise of his Messianic sovereignty by an act of judgment.

In Matthew 24:30-34 we are told emphatically that the disciples' generation would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. Reader, how can the honest student of the word ignore such emphatic chronological parameters? How can we divorce Revelation 1:7 and the promise of the coming in the clouds, from Revelation 1:1-3 and the prediction it must shortly come to pass and was at hand ?

All these things are profound but easily understood as long as we take the time to study them in their original (language, culture, politics and historical setting in which the Bible was originally written.
**********************************

One day Jesus will physically return.

God bless

Acts 9:11

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

resbmc
Dec 22nd 2008, 02:46 PM
I believe fully the Dome is the abomination. Daniel said it would be se up on the wing of the Temple, which is where it is built, on the court of the Gentiles, not over Solomans Temple like they thought for 1400 years. And yes, every one not muslem fled the area, the muslems were on the march, and it took the king of Spain in 732 AD, to conquer and killed 500,000 man army at the Battle of Tours, if that had not happened, all of Europe would be Muslem, go ahead and Google Battle of tours. This is the 45 days, or years of Dan 12:11, The dome was finished in about 688, plus 45 is 732-733 when the beast who was, is not now, but will be, the muslems who were as dead for 1400 years have rose up again.

awestruckchild
Dec 22nd 2008, 03:05 PM
Here's something I was considering recently. Daniel describes an "abomination" that is set up where the Jewish Temple should be, an abomination that desolates.

Why do we think of this as some future event, when there is already a potential abomination built on Temple Mount?

Apparently it has this verse inscribed on its wall.

"O you People of the Book, overstep not bounds in your religion, and of God speak only the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of God, and his Word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from him. Believe therefore in God and his apostles, and say not Three. It will be better for you. God is only one God. Far be it from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son."

That would be blasphemy, wouldn't it?

So... how would this effect our timelines and so on? I used to think that the final abomination was some future thing, but what if we've been sitting looking at it all these years, and not even realised?

Thoughts please!


I almost never jump in without first reading the thread but I will fess up that I'm doing it here.

I can often see, when reading my bible, past events, current events and also can see a verse...happening in the future. It seems so weird but I always just assume everyone sees some of this. It is what makes Eccles. so amazing - that the author saw that there was never anything new but only repeated themes.

I think the abomination happened in AD70. I think it is happening now with the Dome. I think it will happen in the future with the antichrist.

My thoughts, thats all.

bunnymuldare
Apr 15th 2012, 06:52 PM
I believe fully the Dome is the abomination. Daniel said it would be se up on the wing of the Temple, which is where it is built, on the court of the Gentiles, not over Solomans Temple like they thought for 1400 years. And yes, every one not muslem fled the area, the muslems were on the march, and it took the king of Spain in 732 AD, to conquer and killed 500,000 man army at the Battle of Tours, if that had not happened, all of Europe would be Muslem, go ahead and Google Battle of tours. This is the 45 days, or years of Dan 12:11, The dome was finished in about 688, plus 45 is 732-733 when the beast who was, is not now, but will be, the muslems who were as dead for 1400 years have rose up again.

Hi resbmc,
Halleluiah, someone who finally makes total sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did you know:
Daniel 12:12: Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Tanach: Dan 12:12: Fortunate is he who waits and reaches days of one thousand, three hundred, and thirty-five.
1335 x .9857 (O.T. prophetic year "language" conversion) = 1315.9 - 583 BC = 732.9 AD. 583 BC being the year the sacrifices were abolished during Daniel's captivity by the Babylonians? http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
Either way you slice it, Islam was the beast, has made a comeback, his deadly wound has healed. Who can make war with the beast? It still stands where he should not be, spewing blasphemies, sitting squarely on God's Holy Mountain. It has no qualms about breaking it's covenants, it is a lawless multitude of men who wear headscarves with the beast's name printed on their foreheads. Those who bow to him 5 times a day end up with a clearly visible mark. It was time to flee back then, and it is time to flee now -- with the armies under the banner of the Muslim Brotherhood uniting under one flag.But the Bible says they will bre defeated.

Only one thing, It was Charles Martel the Hammer who stopped them.

A quick Yahoo search determines that 732 was the year of The Battle of Tours, France. This battle was fought exactly 100 years after Mohammed's death. The Battle of Tours is widely considered to be the most important battle of the entire Christian era. Charles "Martel" (the hammer), against astronomical odds, defeated the Islamic army, and the spread of Islam, in its near conquest of the whole known world, as it headed up through Europe during the Islamic First Jihad. Indeed blessed was he who patiently waited and made it through the First Jihad, without converting to Islam, or denying his Lord and Savior.

Sadok
Apr 16th 2012, 10:23 AM
Hi resbmc,
Halleluiah, someone who finally makes total sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did you know:
Daniel 12:12: Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Tanach: Dan 12:12: Fortunate is he who waits and reaches days of one thousand, three hundred, and thirty-five.
1335 x .9857 (O.T. prophetic year "language" conversion) = 1315.9 - 583 BC = 732.9 AD. 583 BC being the year the sacrifices were abolished during Daniel's captivity by the Babylonians? http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
Either way you slice it, Islam was the beast, has made a comeback, his deadly wound has healed. Who can make war with the beast? It still stands where he should not be, spewing blasphemies, sitting squarely on God's Holy Mountain. It has no qualms about breaking it's covenants, it is a lawless multitude of men who wear headscarves with the beast's name printed on their foreheads. Those who bow to him 5 times a day end up with a clearly visible mark. It was time to flee back then, and it is time to flee now -- with the armies under the banner of the Muslim Brotherhood uniting under one flag.But the Bible says they will bre defeated.

Only one thing, It was Charles Martel the Hammer who stopped them.

A quick Yahoo search determines that 732 was the year of The Battle of Tours, France. This battle was fought exactly 100 years after Mohammed's death. The Battle of Tours is widely considered to be the most important battle of the entire Christian era. Charles "Martel" (the hammer), against astronomical odds, defeated the Islamic army, and the spread of Islam, in its near conquest of the whole known world, as it headed up through Europe during the Islamic First Jihad. Indeed blessed was he who patiently waited and made it through the First Jihad, without converting to Islam, or denying his Lord and Savior.

Posted only as a matter of interest:

August 23, 676: Birth of Charles Martel (Charles the Hammer) in Herstal, Wallonia, Belgium, as the illegitimate son of Pippin II. Serving as Mayor of the Palace of the kingdom of the Franks, Charles would lead a force of Christians that turn back a Muslim raiding party near Poitiers (or Tours) which, according to many historians, would effectively halt the advance of Islam against Christianity in the West.

677: Muslims send a large fleet against Constantinople in an effort to finally break the city, but they are defeated so badly through the Byzantine use of Greek Fire that they are forced to pay an indemnity to the Emperor.
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/imperialism/notes/islamchron.html


2012 - 1335 = the year 677A.D.

John 8:32
Apr 16th 2012, 02:43 PM
Type and anti-type…

Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Most Syrian officials backed Heliodorus, but by a display of “Roman manners” and much flattery and the enlistment of King Eumenes II of Pergamum, Antiochus IV forced out Heliodorus and became king in 175BC.

Dan 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

Jason, an Hellenistic Jew, was appointed by Antiochus to replace the High Priest. He was replace three years later by another Hellenizing apostate, Menelaus.

Dan 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

Antiochus formed a league with the Jewish leadership and entered in the Holy Land with a small people
Or force.

Dan 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

Antiochus became a sort of Robin Hood here, he took from the wealthy and distributed it to the poor to gain support from the masses.

Dan 11:25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
Dan 11:26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.
Dan 11:27 And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

Both kings made many agreements with no intention of keeping them.

Dan 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

Antiochus return via the Holy Land with wealth gotten from a successful raid in Egypt. Along the way he massacred Jews an plundered the Temple in Jerusalem.

Dan 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.


Antiochus thought to raid Egypt again, but was not successful as the first time.

Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

The Roman navy came against Antiochus and ordered him to return Cyprus to Egypt. Rome then ordered him to leave Egypt immediately or be attacked by Rome. This enraged Antiochus and he vented his anger and frustration on the Jews by slaughtering them and committing atrocities against them causing many to become apostate to save their lives.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

The Temple was defiled, there were pigs sacrificed on the altars and they Jews were prohibited from practicing their religion and many forsook the Law. The daily sacrifice was stopped. Then on Kislev 15 (167BC) a statue of Zeus (Jupiter Olympus) was set up on the altar. This abomination in God’s sight made the Temple desolate of His presence. Horrible atrocities were committed which you may look up for yourself.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

From the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the AoD set up will be 1290. Yet we read…

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

We see here from the time of the AoD itself, one needs to flee that very day. Don’t go back to get your suitcase or your stuff…

Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

There is another part to the AoD…

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

The tribulation is 1260 days and the church is in the place of safety 3-1/2 years, 1260 days…

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

So we see a two part sign, Jerusalem is surrounded by armies, the daily sacrifice is stopped and then the AoD is set up. There are thirty days between them with the AoD the actual sign it is time to flee.

T W Taylor
Apr 21st 2012, 08:28 PM
Hello everyone, To help understand a little better, some are using a translations that say the ABOMINATION THAT MAKES DESOLATION and there are some that translate it ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION. There is a big difference in the meanings. Is there anyone smart enough to find the proper translation? I think it is a lot of the problem understanding it.

Stormcrow
Apr 22nd 2012, 09:49 AM
Dome on the Rock... is this the abomination that desolates?

No. This is:

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-22 (NASB)

Luke 21 is a parallel chapter to Matthew 24. So when you want to understand what Matthew means when he writes this...

"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Matthew 24:15-17 (NASB)

The "abomination of desolation" is the presence of pagan armies in the Holy Land, surrounding and besieging Jerusalem.

This happened in 66-70 AD.

John 8:32
Apr 23rd 2012, 10:56 AM
No. This is:

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-22 (NASB)

Luke 21 is a parallel chapter to Matthew 24. So when you want to understand what Matthew means when he writes this...

"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Matthew 24:15-17 (NASB)

The "abomination of desolation" is the presence of pagan armies in the Holy Land, surrounding and besieging Jerusalem.

This happened in 66-70 AD.

This did NOT occur in 66-70AD...

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

If it did the Jews must have missed it because it did not make a lasting impression on them. They are still looking for the Messiah to come.

Raybob
Apr 23rd 2012, 05:34 PM
Hello everyone, To help understand a little better, some are using a translations that say the ABOMINATION THAT MAKES DESOLATION and there are some that translate it ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION. There is a big difference in the meanings. Is there anyone smart enough to find the proper translation? I think it is a lot of the problem understanding it.

KJV says it best.

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(Dan 11:31)

John 8:32
Apr 23rd 2012, 05:43 PM
KJV says it best.

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(Dan 11:31)

The abomination makes that location desolate of God's presence.

T W Taylor
May 1st 2012, 10:52 AM
KJV says it best.

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(Dan 11:31)

Hey Raybob, The KJV renders it both ways. Looks like there would be a way to know the proper translation, there is a lot of difference in the meanings. I think it is the Abomination of Desolation. If it is and the Abomination is of the Desolation of 70 AD, then the first Abomination was that Gold Dome, and it has been standing there for 1,325 years. That don’t leave very many years left from 1,335. I would like to know for sure what the correct translation is.

Matt 24:15 When all of you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understand:)
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waits, and comes to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

T W Taylor
May 1st 2012, 11:02 AM
No. This is:

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-22 (NASB)

Luke 21 is a parallel chapter to Matthew 24. So when you want to understand what Matthew means when he writes this...

"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Matthew 24:15-17 (NASB)

The "abomination of desolation" is the presence of pagan armies in the Holy Land, surrounding and besieging Jerusalem.

This happened in 66-70 AD.


Hello Stromcrow, I don’t see anything in Luke 21 about the Abomination. I only see more details about the desolation and I agree, it happened in 70 AD

Prophecy Countdown
May 30th 2012, 12:11 PM
Matthew 24: 3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you

We are told how long the abomination of desolation set up will last for in. Daniel 12: 11. 1290 days.

Daniel 12: 11. “And from the time that the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.”

Knowing the time span of the abomination of desolation set up is for 1290 days we can do the maths.

Matthew 24: 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understandJ 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

After verse 15, we can expect, 1290 days later, being completed, the day of the Lord will occur at verse 29.

Matthew 24: 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24: 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

All this within ‘the time of end’ which is the time of the ‘evening morning vision.’

Daniel 8: 13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 8: 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

It is impossible for the vision to stretch back and be applicable to another time outside its time of the end’s 2300 day period.:idea:
PC

John 8:32
May 30th 2012, 12:14 PM
No. This is:

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-22 (NASB)

Luke 21 is a parallel chapter to Matthew 24. So when you want to understand what Matthew means when he writes this...

"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Matthew 24:15-17 (NASB)

The "abomination of desolation" is the presence of pagan armies in the Holy Land, surrounding and besieging Jerusalem.

This happened in 66-70 AD.

So when Matthew wrote...

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

He was really referring to Luke, he just got a little confused?

Prophecy Countdown
May 30th 2012, 12:50 PM
I appreciate what you are saying John 8; 32, however 70 AD was during the time of the Roman Empire the vision concerns ‘the time of the end’ as stated in verse 17 by the angel Gabriel in. Daniel 8: 16, 17.

Daniel 8: 16. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

Daniel 8: 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

The indignation is concerned with the last end.

Daniel 8: 19. And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

It is the indignation against the holy covenant that causes that abomination to occur in Daniel 11: 30. “For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31.And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

32. And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.”

After the battles of Daniel 11 and knowing the abomination of desolation will last for 1290 days, it is after that, time that we are told the following about the resurrection.

Daniel 12: 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

God’s people were not saved 1290 days after 70AD.

Then we are told the time when the words will be understood but until the time of the end they will not be applicable.

Daniel 12: 4. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Finally we are told the following.

Daniel 12: 11. And from the time that the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
PC

John 8:32
May 30th 2012, 01:01 PM
Some thoughts on Dan 11…

*Dan 11:20 “There shall arise in his [Antiochus III’s] place one [his son Seleucus (IV) Philopater
(187-176 BC)] who imposes taxes on the glorious kingdom[sending the tax collector
Heliodorus through Judea in an effort to raise money for his financially distressed empire];
but within a few days he [Seleucus IV]; but within a few days [he ruled only 11 years in contrast
to his father’s rule of 37 years] he shall be destroyed, but not in anger or in battle [he was poisoned by Heliodorus, who took control with the backing of other Syrian officials tired of the excesses of the Seleucid rulers].
Dan 11:21 And in his [Seleucus IV’s] place shall arise a vile person [Antiochus (IV) Epiphanes,Seleucus IV’s brother, a younger son of Antiochus III], to whom they [Syrian officials supporting Heliodorus] will not give the honor of royalty; but he [Antiochus IV] shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue [By a show of “Roman manners” and a great deal of flattery, he was able to enlist the aid of neighboring King Eumenes II of Pergamum and officials at home in forcing out Heliodorus and obtaining the throne (ruled 175-164 BC)].

This is yet again to be fulfilled, but how? One can see a shadowy type early in the 20th century.

Dan 11:20 “There shall arise in his [Bismarck’s] place one [Kaiser Wilhelm II] who imposes taxes on the glorious kingdom [Wilhelm II was a Hohenzollern who raised taxes to pay for WWI]; but within a few days he shall be destroyed, but not in anger or in battle [Wilhelm II had to abdicate in 1918. In his place arose the Weimar Republic 1919-1933].
Dan 11:21 And in his place shall arise a vile person [Adolph Hitler], to whom they will not give the honor of royalty [Hitler was not from a family of nobility or royalty as Bismarck – Junker Estate or Kaiser Wilhem II – the first grandchild of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert]; but he shall come in peaceably [After Hitler’s Beer Hall Putsch, he then actually came to power through politics], and seize the kingdom by intrigue[Hitler rose to power by many questionable acts].

This is by no means the anti-type fulfillment of this prophecy, this “vile person” is yet to come to power in Europe, but it does give one a sense of how the coming fulfillment of this prophecy takes place.

*Thanks to Tom Robinson for his commentary on Dan 11.

NKJV throughout.

John 8:32
May 30th 2012, 01:06 PM
I appreciate what you are saying John 8; 32, however 70 AD was during the time of the Roman Empire the vision concerns ‘the time of the end’ as stated in verse 17 by the angel Gabriel in. Daniel 8: 16, 17.


Of course, read some of my posts and you will see that I am not a preterist. The anti-type fulfillment of Dan 11 & 12 is yet to occur.

Raybob
May 30th 2012, 09:35 PM
Some thoughts on Dan 11…

...This is by no means the anti-type fulfillment of this prophecy, this “vile person” is yet to come to power in Europe, but it does give one a sense of how the coming fulfillment of this prophecy takes place. ...

Yet another interpretation that was generally considered correct before the 1800s modern invention of pre-trib/pre-mill theology is well stated by Mathew Henry in his commentary:

Dan 11:21-45
All this is a prophecy of the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes, the little horn spoken of before (Dan_8:9) a sworn enemy to the Jewish religion, and a bitter persecutor of those that adhered to it. ...

He goes on to say:

3. He profaned the temple. Arms stand on his part (Dan_11:31), not only his own army which he now brought from Egypt, but a great party of deserters from the Jewish religion that joined with them; and they polluted the sanctuary of strength, not only the holy city, but the temple. The story of this we have, 1 Macc. 1:21, etc. He entered proudly into the sanctuary, took away the golden altar, and the candlestick, etc. And therefore (v. 25) there was a great mourning in Israel; the princes and elders mourned, etc. And (2 Macc. 5:15, etc.) Antiochus went into the most holy temple, Menelaus, that traitor to the laws and to his own country, being his guide. Antiochus, having resolved to bring all about him to be of his religion, took away the daily sacrifice, Dan_11:31. Some observe that the word Tammidh, which signifies no more than daily, is only here, and in the parallel place, used for the daily sacrifice, as if there were a designed liberty left to supply it either with sacrifice, which was suppressed by Antiochus, or with gospel-worship, which was suppressed by the Antichrist. Then he set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar (1 Macc. 1:54), even an idol altar (v. 59), and called the temple the temple of Jupiter Olympius, 2 Macc. 6:2.

Prophecy Countdown
May 31st 2012, 09:44 AM
I will have to go with the angel Gabriel on this issue by relying on his time of the vision.

Daniel 8: 16. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, MAKE THIS man TO UNDERSTAND THE VISION.

According to Gabriel, in understanding the evening morning vision, we at least have to know the time of it, which is not an historic view of it outside of the appointed time of the end period of 2300 days.

Daniel 8: 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O SON OF MAN: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

Daniel 8: 18. Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
Daniel 8: 19. And he said, Behold, I WILL MAKE THE KNOW WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION: FOR AT THE TIME APPOINTED THE END shall be.
The indignation is as follows, which is about the time of the end and last end.

Chittim is was named after kittim, the son of Javan, chittem was the name of Cyprus where from memory one of the USA fleets are berthed.

Daniel 11: 30. For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and HAVE INDIGNATION AGAINST THE HOLY COVENANT: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that FORSAKE THE HOLY COVENANT.

Daniel 11: 31. And ARMS SHALL STAND ON HIS PART, and THEY SHALL POLLUTE THE SANCTUARY of strength, and shall take away the daily, and they shall PLACE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE.

Daniel 11: 35. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even TO THE TIME OF THE END: because it is YET FOR A TIME APPOINTED.

There will be a Sanctuary and outer court when the two witnesses witness for 1260 as the Gentiles trample on Jerusalem for 42 months, after the 1260 days the two witnesses will be killed in Revelation 11: verse 7 and left for 3½ days then raised at trumpet 7 in verses 13 – 15. See Revelation 11:

The resurrection event is also matched in Daniel 12: 1 – 3 at that same time.

Daniel 12: 1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, such as never was since there was a nation even TO THAT SAME TIME: AND AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, every one that shall be found WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE.

Daniel 12: 2. And many of them THAT SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH SHALL AWAKE, SOME TO EVERLASTING LIFE, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12: And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Daniel 12: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and SEAL THE BOOK TO THE TIME OF THE END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.