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Diolectic
Nov 12th 2008, 05:14 PM
6:Not as though the word of God has failed. For not all those of Israel are Israel,
Not as though:
The Jews imagined that the word of God must fail if all their nation were not saved. This St. Paul now refutes, and proves that the word itself had foretold their falling away.

7:Neither because they are Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac a Seed shall be called to you."Gen. 21:12
Neither because they are, by blood, the seed of Abraham:
This did not hold even in Abraham's own family; and much less in his remote descendants. But God then said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called - That is, Isaac, not Ishmael, shall be called thy seed; that seed to which the promise is made.

8:That is: Not the children of flesh are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for a seed.
That is, Not the children of the flesh.
As if he had said, "This is a clear type of things to come; showing us, that in all succeeding generations, 'not the children of the flesh, blood descendants of Abraham, but the children of the promise, they to whom the promise is made, that is, believers, are the children of God".
Gen 21:12

9:For the Word of promise is this, "According to this time I will come, and a son will be to Sarah."Gen. 18:10
For this is the word of the promise
By the way which Isaac was conceived, not by the work of the flesh, but by faith & obedience, they shall inherit the blessing. Genesis 18:10

11:for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling,
The purpose of God according to election was not concerning eternal life, but is to bring about a lineage for His SEED, a holy remnant.

12:it was said to her, "The greater shall serve the lesser;"Gen. 25:23
The elder - Esau. Shall serve the younger - Not in person, for he never did; but in his posterity. Accordingly the Edomites were often brought into subjection by the Israelites.

13:even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau."Mal. 1:1-2 Gen 25:23
Two nations are in her womb, not that God hates Esau personally.
The reason why the Spirit says this is because it is to Israel, not the person of Israel which is Jacob.
So far the Paul has been proving his point, that a great part of the seed of Abraham are excluded from the special promises of God, even the literal Israel. Paul, now introduces and refutes an objection...ect...

14:What then shall we say? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be!
Is there injustice with God - Is it unjust in God to give Jacob the blessing rather than Esau? or to accept believers, and them only? God forbid - In no wise.

This is well consistent with justice; for God has a right to fix the terms on which he will show mercy, according to his declaration to Moses as he interceded for all Israel, after they had committed idolatry with the golden calf.
"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion [all according to the terms I myself have fixed - Namely, on those only who submit to my terms, who accept of it in the way that I have appointed.]"

The terms & the appointed way is by faith & repentance.

15: For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will pity whomever I will pity."Ex. 33:19
There is good reason for which God chooses to be gracious to and to whom HE will show mercy on.
God knows the heart of man. HE knows if & when they will yield or not.

God will be gracious to & show mercy on those HE knows will yield. For this is the character of God.
God is not stating that He is arbitrary, for that is against His character.

It is not saying that He can do anything He wants, just because He is God, for God's character has a boundary.
God has His own reasons for mercy which are based upon standards outside of Himself which has been before creation and are according to His character; He is...
selfless, Just, righteous, loving, compassionate, peaceable, gentle, and easily entreated, full of mercy, without partiality...ect...

16:So, then, it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy, of God.
This verse is pointing out that man's favorite is not always God's favorite.

Abraham willed or desired that it the promise might be given to Ishmael.
Isaac also willed or desired that the promise might be given to Esau.

This verse is in context with Exodus 33:18-20 & Abraham willing that the promise would come through Ishmael as the context proves Genesis 17:18
Moreover, in Genesis 27 Isaac is willing for Esau to have the blessing and Esau "running" to hunt and make Isaac's favorite meal for the blessing.

God also chooses the one which is not wanted or favored by man.
Jacob wanted Rachel because he favored her more than Leah. But God shown HIS favor on Leah by her child bringing the SEED through Judah.

17:For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very thing I raised you up, so that I might display My power in you, and so that My name might be publicized in all the earth."Ex. 9:16
"For this sake I keep you alive, in order to make you see My power, and that My name may resound in the entire earth."

Pharaoh is the king of the greatest kingdom on Earth at that time, the thing which takes place between God(or Moses) and Pharaoh can not be done without the whole world knowing it.

Exodus 9:17 "And yet you exalt yourself against my people, that you will not let them go?"
"yet" pharaoh exalts himself against God's people.
This is an expression of wonder or amazement.
As if God is saying, "I let you live and you still rebel"?

IOW, God let Pharaoh to keep living to show Pharaoh HIS power in him. Yet, Pharaoh still is proud and rebellious.
This is why Paul says what he does here: God had Mercy on Pharaoh by keeping him alive to show him His power & He also hardens pharaoh by happenstance in the circumstance of the plagues.
It does not say that Pharaoh was born for wrath.
Pharaoh hardened his own heart from the circumstances which God brought about because of judgment.
Eph 4:18

God could have shown His power in Pharaoh, if Pharaoh let Israel go.
So, unless you repent, this will surely be the consequence for you. As God Kept Pharaoh alive & making him a great and glorious king, that God's power will be shown upon those who don't repent as indeed it was, by overwhelming Pharaoh and his army in the sea, and God's name declared through all the earth - As it is at this day.

It seems that God was determined to show his power over the idols which were made as gods.
He shown His power over the meteors, the air, the sun, (all of which were worshipped by the Egyptians, from whom other nations learned their idolatry)
Exodus 9:16

18:So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens.
God let Pharaoh to keep living to show Pharaoh HIS power in him. Yet, Pharaoh still is proud and rebellious.

This is why Paul says what he does here: God had Mercy on Pharaoh by keeping him alive to show him His power & He also hardens pharaoh by happenstance in the circumstance of the plagues.
God knew Pharaoh would harden his heart & used that situation to HIS advantage.

In 1Sam 6:6, this Scripture actually say that Pharaoh hardened his heart and that God didn't. Why didn't this Scripture say that God did it?

19:You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His intention?
For who has resisted God's intention?
Pharaoh hardened his heart as he resisted God & denied HIS sovereignty.
If God's intention was to use us the hardness of pharaoh's heart, who can resist His intention?
However, you Pharaoh was always able to repent & was expected to; same goes for all of creation.

20:Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Isa. 29:16
Why did You make me like this?
The answer is; you made yourself like that and God, therefore, gave you over to your own ways & you took the offer, So God used that instead for HIS purpose.
So, quite your belly aikin' and do what you're supposed to do, REPENT!!!

21:Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor?Jeremiah 18:2-6
This is not saying that God actually makes vessels specifically for wrath.

The Potter doesn't throw the lump of clay away, but uses the same & makes a new vessel out of it.
The Potter did not mar the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.
The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.
Therefore, the Potter had to reform the clay into a new vessel.
Israel was warned to repent and they did not, that is the clay being marred. God sent them to Babylon because of there repentance, this is the clay being reformed.
See notes on next verse for proof of this.

22:But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction,
Fitted to destruction:
Reformed from a vessel of honor to be a vessel of dishonor.
See notes on Romans 9:21
2 Timothy 2:20-21
Ephesians 2:3
God loves all His creation even those who hate him, that is why God endured in much long-suffering with them. 1Corinth 13:7, "charity (love) bears all things (is patient)


23:and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory,
What if by showing such longsuffering even to "the vessels of wrath," by contrast to them, God shows abundantly the greatness of his glorious goodness, wisdom, and power on the vessels of mercy; on those whom he had himself, by his grace, prepared for glory. Is this any injustice?

Diolectic
Nov 12th 2008, 05:16 PM
Please let me know what you think, your remarks would make a great conversation to this dificult chapter.
This has alot of what John Wesley has in his Explanatory Notes, however I did put a lot of my own in this also.

I also had to edit it down to the limited amount a characters for me to post.
Thanx

John146
Nov 13th 2008, 05:09 PM
Good post. Romans 9 has erroneously been used to try to show that God predetermined some to salvation and the rest to damnation while not giving people any choice in the matter. But when it speaks of Jacob and Esau and Pharaoh it's not speaking about them being predestined to salvation or damnation at all. It is about each of them being chosen for a purpose and also about the purposes God had for the nations of Israel and Edom. All of it was based on God's foreknowledge of what would be best for His purposes. Again, it is a mistake to use Romans 9 to try to prove that God unconditionally elects some to salvation and the rest to damnation. That is just not what the chapter is about.

When it speaks of God having mercy on who He will have mercy and hardening who He will harden, we have to remember that we have many examples in scripture of God having mercy on those who have already humbled themselves before Him and had mercy on others. As it says in Matthew 5:7, "Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." and in Proverbs 28:13, "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." And we see examples of God hardening the hearts of those who have already hardened their own hearts (Romans 1:18-32, 2 Thess 2:9-12, etc.). God doesn't just do things randomly. He always has a good reason.

Yukerboy
Nov 14th 2008, 01:10 AM
Israel has experienced a hardening in part (God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. ) until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved...As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts (the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.) and his call are irrevocable.

For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated. Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says.


The terms & the appointed way is by faith & repentance.


For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. There are different kinds of gifts, one is faith by the same Spirit, God's gifts (a gift of God is faith) and his call are irrevocable.

He chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will. Before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you". God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Why does God still blame us? For who resists his will? To whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens. In all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Yuke

Diolectic
Nov 14th 2008, 01:34 AM
Sorry, but I have no idea what you had to say.

However, what I did get out of your post, Id' like to expound on it.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. There are different kinds of gifts, one is faith by the same Spirit, God's gifts (a gift of God is faith) and his call are irrevocable.IF God must first give faith to one in order for them to be saved, then according to this, God will not give some faith to be saved and condemn them for what HE is responcible for.
Again, if faith is a gift, then God is directly responcible for the faithlessness of the world, because He will not give it to those who do not get saved.
How do you explain this?

Yukerboy
Nov 14th 2008, 07:38 AM
IF God must first give faith to one in order for them to be saved, then according to this, God will not give some faith to be saved and condemn them for what HE is responcible for.


The wages of sin is death and all have sinned, but blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. No man can come to Christ, except the Father which hath sent Christ draw (Gr. helko) him: and Christ will raise him up at the last day. This is the Father's will which hath sent Christ, that of all which the Father hath given Christ, Christ should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. No man can come unto Christ, except it were given unto him of Christ's Father. They caught Paul and Silas, and drew (Gr. helko) them into the marketplace unto the rulers.


Again, if faith is a gift, then God is directly responcible for the faithlessness of the world, because He will not give it to those who do not get saved.
How do you explain this?

Think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. And now these three (gifts) remain: faith, hope and love. Fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours.

Yukerboy
Nov 14th 2008, 07:41 AM
These last two posts I made are Scriptures that would require a lot of explaining to justify the commentary of Romans 9 above.

Veretax
Nov 14th 2008, 01:36 PM
Faith is described as growing or decreasing in many passages of scripture. God is able to strengthen our faith, how? By giving us strength to endure the trials of life, by leading us. Just because God can do that, does not mean that only God can give faith. Remember some came to jesus saying, they had too little faith. too little implies they had faith, but they felt they lacked enough measure of faith, so they asked for Jesus to help their lack of faith.

Diolectic
Nov 14th 2008, 02:16 PM
These last two posts I made are Scriptures that would require a lot of explaining to justify the commentary of Romans 9 above.Could you put that one ine question form?

I don't see it as I should that would require a lot of explaining to justify the commentary.

I will respond to the others soon.

BroRog
Nov 14th 2008, 02:34 PM
Please let me know what you think, your remarks would make a great conversation to this dificult chapter.
This has alot of what John Wesley has in his Explanatory Notes, however I did put a lot of my own in this also.

I also had to edit it down to the limited amount a characters for me to post.
Thanx

Your commentary misses Paul's point entirely. Needs work. Instead of dealing with the passage verse-by-verse, best to follow Paul's flow of thought and allow the verses to work together.

songladyjenn
Nov 14th 2008, 03:18 PM
I agree with Bro Rog. Romans 9 deals with the sovereignty of God. we can not come to God unless he first draws us to him.

It is to long to post in it's entirety but Bob Deffinbaugh has an article called:

The Sovereignty of God in Salvation (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=257)


It is well worth the time to read.

Diolectic
Nov 14th 2008, 05:48 PM
I agree with Bro Rog. Romans 9 deals with the sovereignty of God. we can not come to God unless he first draws us to him.God draws men through the truth.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.
who hears from the Father and is learning the truth, is coming to Me.
Every one that is coming to the Father in theis verse is given to His son.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
The father draws the dead to His son and they shall hear Him and Live.

Diolectic
Nov 14th 2008, 05:50 PM
Your commentary misses Paul's point entirely. Needs work. Instead of dealing with the passage verse-by-verse, best to follow Paul's flow of thought and allow the verses to work together.If you would, please explain how each verse's commentary is incorrect.
For, I have kept the flow of thought in each verse and the doo all work together.

songladyjenn
Nov 14th 2008, 06:02 PM
God draws men through the truth.
Joh 6:45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.
who hears from the Father and is learning the truth, is coming to Me.
Every one that is coming to the Father in theis verse is given to His son.

Joh 5:25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
The father draws the dead to His son and they shall hear Him and Live.


Couple of questions for ya for clarification.

John 6:45

It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ 1 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?search=John%206:45&book=john&chapter=6&verse=45#) Everyone who hears and learns from the Father 2 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?search=John%206:45&book=john&chapter=6&verse=45#) comes to me.
This is from Is 54:13 which states:
All your children will be followers of the Lord, and your children will enjoy great prosperity. 1 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Isa&chapter=54&verse=13#)

Who is this passage referring to and what does it mean in context?

In John 6:45 it states AND LEARNS....(not just hears) there are those who hear but do not listen would you not agree? Just look at the parable of the sower ;)

I agree that many are called but what follows that???? FEW are chosen. It is ultimately GOD who does the choosing. Before we are a child of God everything we do is as filthy rags.

Now to the next scripture you cited:



5:24 “I tell you the solemn truth, 1 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n1) the one who hears 2 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n2) my message 3 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n3) and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, 4 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n4) but has crossed over from death to life. 5:25 I tell you the solemn truth, 5 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n5) a time 6 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n6) is coming – and is now here – when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, thus he has granted the Son to have life in himself, 5:27 and he has granted the Son 7 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n7) authority to execute judgment, 8 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n8) because he is the Son of Man.
5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, because a time 9 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n9) is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 5:29 and will come out – the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation. 10 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n10) 5:30 I can do nothing on my own initiative. 11 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n11) Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, 12 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n12) because I do not seek my own will, but the will of the one who sent me. 13 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n13)


Who are the "dead" and what does this passage mean to you? The whole passage and not the one verse that is.

We can spend all day shooting verses at one another but where is the edification in that. When scripture is citing an explanation of how it pertains to the topic at hand would go a long way in helping with the conversation.


all references from the NET (http://net.bible.org/home.php) Bible from bible.org

Back2Front
Nov 14th 2008, 07:40 PM
A house divided will fall. Spirit and flesh were initially created to be one in union, peace, and harmony.

Sin divided the house. Let me explain.


6:Not as though the word of God has failed. For not all those of Israel are Israel,
Not as though:
The Jews imagined that the word of God must fail if all their nation were not saved.

No they didn't imagine that. They imagined that their take on the law through sin would be blessed and in their flesh they would be saved no matter how they adhered to the law. None would ever dare to say or imagine his word would fail, yet they refused to see that it was their rebellion to his word as the reason things were going so wrong. They knew knew exactly why, and just unrepentant in pride. However the prophets and the other writers in the OT knew and kept trying to tell them to leave their pride and admitt the truth of their sin.


This St. Paul now refutes, and proves that the word itself had foretold their falling away.

That's not what he was proving or refuting. He was simply stating that there is indeed a requirement to be 'of Israel' that God is pretty serious about. He was stating this by saying that Gods law hadn't failed, It's mans attitude towards it that fails. But that is 'foretold' in all of us from the beginning of time.


7:Neither because they are Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac a Seed shall be called to you."Gen. 21:12
Neither because they are, by blood, the seed of Abraham:
This did not hold even in Abraham's own family;

Yes it did, and still does. They understood what 'by blood' meant as do I, as do many, especially in these times.


and much less in his remote descendants.

There are no remote descendants of the promised seed of Abraham. You either are or you aren't.


But God then said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called - That is, Isaac, not Ishmael, shall be called thy seed; that seed to which the promise is made.

Yes the promise made to the seed of Abraham. Which means now, what it meant then. I'll add though it also eliminates the possibility of Muslimism as the chosen.


8:That is: Not the children of flesh are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for a seed.
That is, Not the children of the flesh.

Yes it does. In true belief, one becomes actually a flesh descendand as well. Along with that comes the inheritance of the land.

Matthew 3:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%203:9;&version=31;)

9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

In flesh and in spirit.


As if he had said, "This is a clear type of things to come; showing us, that in all succeeding generations, 'not the children of the flesh, blood descendants of Abraham, but the children of the promise, they to whom the promise is made, that is, believers, are the children of God".
Gen 21:12

You're half right. True belief will manifest in flesh through obedience that is inspired by the the Spirit of Christ and not the Spirit of rebellion and pride.


9:For the Word of promise is this, "According to this time I will come, and a son will be to Sarah."Gen. 18:10
For this is the word of the promise
By the way which Isaac was conceived, not by the work of the flesh, but by faith & obedience, they shall inherit the blessing. Genesis 18:10

True faith and true obedience are not separate. One begats the other. True faith inspires true reason to obey. True reasons to obey inspire true faith.

That's all I will say for now as I could be here for a Month if I respond to the entire post.

But I will close with this:


Colossians 2:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:4;&version=31;)

4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.


2 Timothy 4:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%204:3-4;&version=31;)

3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.


Ezekiel 37:15-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2037:15-23;&version=31;)

15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 "Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, 'Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.' Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, 'Ephraim's stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.' 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand. 18 "When your countrymen ask you, 'Won't you tell us what you mean by this?' 19 say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim's hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.' 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.



Christian and Jew are supposed to be the same person. Jew and Christian are supposed to be the same person.


If one does not become the other, then can they really pontificate to be Gods people? Not according to a simple understanding of the word of God.

I hope and pray this is the beginning of the explanation that God was will have you look for, rather than one you presume to know.

Diolectic
Nov 14th 2008, 10:26 PM
Couple of questions for ya for clarification.

John 6:45This is from Is 54:13 which states:
All your children will be followers of the Lord, and your children will enjoy great prosperity. 1 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Isa&chapter=54&verse=13#)

Who is this passage referring to and what does it mean in context?That would be the true jew in heart, but not of only the flesh(hereditarily)
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said unto them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

Those who are true Jew in heart do that which Abraham did, believed God to righteousness.


In John 6:45 it states AND LEARNS....(not just hears) there are those who hear but do not listen would you not agree? Just look at the parable of the sower ;)
See above answer.

I agree that many are called but what follows that???? FEW are chosen. It is ultimately GOD who does the choosing. Before we are a child of God everything we do is as filthy rags.
Salvation is granted to those who receive God's offer. God calls all men everywhere to repent.(Acts 17:30) But God only chooses to save those who obey the calling. Many are called, but the chosen are few, because few obey the call to repentance.

God does not say that what we do are as filthy rags, but our righteousness was.


Now to the next scripture you cited:

5:24 “I tell you the solemn truth, 1 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n1) the one who hears 2 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n2) my message 3 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n3) and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, 4 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n4) but has crossed over from death to life. 5:25 I tell you the solemn truth, 5 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n5) a time 6 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n6) is coming – and is now here – when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, thus he has granted the Son to have life in himself, 5:27 and he has granted the Son 7 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n7) authority to execute judgment, 8 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n8) because he is the Son of Man.
5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, because a time 9 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n9) is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 5:29 and will come out – the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation. 10 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n10) 5:30 I can do nothing on my own initiative. 11 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n11) Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, 12 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n12) because I do not seek my own will, but the will of the one who sent me. 13 (http://net.bible.org/passage.php?search=John%205:24-30&passage=john%205:24-30#n13)
Who are the "dead" and what does this passage mean to you? The whole passage and not the one verse that is.The dead are those who are spiritually dead.
Spiritual death is not having a relationship with God through Christ.

They who are dead & who are true Jews in heart will hear God's Call to repentance (hearing is doing also) will live.



We can spend all day shooting verses at one another but where is the edification in that. When scripture is citing an explanation of how it pertains to the topic at hand would go a long way in helping with the conversation.
I agree.
There are some who seem to spam the thread with verses, which, without commentary, we are o interpret them as we always do & not know what the point in those verses are.
I never mean to do this, sorry if it seemed to be that way.
I just thought you would see the relation of what I said with the verses.

Diolectic
Nov 14th 2008, 10:53 PM
A house divided will fall. Spirit and flesh were initially created to be one in union, peace, and harmony.

Sin divided the house. Let me explain.
6:Not as though the word of God has failed. For not all those of Israel are Israel,
Not as though:
The Jews imagined that the word of God must fail if all their nation were not saved.No they didn't imagine that. They imagined that their take on the law through sin would be blessed and in their flesh they would be saved no matter how they adhered to the law. None would ever dare to say or imagine his word would fail, yet they refused to see that it was their rebellion to his word as the reason things were going so wrong. They knew knew exactly why, and just unrepentant in pride. However the prophets and the other writers in the OT knew and kept trying to tell them to leave their pride and admitt the truth of their sin.First of all, I thank you for your well thought out response.
Your commentary is correct, but it is as speaking to Israel, not to the gentile Church.
Thank you for your correction.

However, Paul is not talking to Jews. Paul assumed that they whom he is writing to might think that what he is saying is making the word of God as failing, by the way he was mourning over Israel as they are not being saved.
But, Paul clarifies that is not the case in the following verses.
I will update this in my E-Sword notes, thanx.




This St. Paul now refutes, and proves that the word itself had foretold their falling away.
That's not what he was proving or refuting. He was simply stating that there is indeed a requirement to be 'of Israel' that God is pretty serious about. He was stating this by saying that Gods law hadn't failed, It's mans attitude towards it that fails. But that is 'foretold' in all of us from the beginning of time.
Okay. Thanx again.



7: Neither because they are Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac a Seed shall be called to you." Gen. 21:12
Neither because they are, by blood, the seed of Abraham:
This did not hold even in Abraham's own family;Yes it did, and still does. They understood what 'by blood' meant as do I, as do many, especially in these times.True, they knew what it meant, but the words "by blood" are not in the text, they were added in the commentary for clarity.
The thing which did not hold even in Abraham's own family was the point Pual will be making, that there is a true Jew and a false Jew.




and much less in his remote descendants.There are no remote descendants of the promised seed of Abraham. You either are or you aren't.
True, but Paul wasn't speaking of the promised seed of Abraham, he was meaning the children of Ishmael, Esau...ect...



But God then said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called - That is, Isaac, not Ishmael, shall be called thy seed; that seed to which the promise is made.Yes the promise made to the seed of Abraham. Which means now, what it meant then. I'll add though it also eliminates the possibility of Muslimism as the chosen.
In Isaac shall thy seed be called. The seed is Christ.



8: That is: Not the children of flesh are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for a seed.
That is, Not the children of the flesh.Yes it does. In true belief, one becomes actually a flesh descendand as well. Along with that comes the inheritance of the land.What is meant by a "flesh descendant" is that by ancestry, a physical lineage by blood, not by adoption as we are.



Matthew 3:9
9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
In flesh and in spirit.I know what you mean, I'm not disagreeing, but, with all truthfulness, we are not physically blood related to Abraham, you can not trace the history of our relatives to Abraham, that is what it meant.



As if he had said, "This is a clear type of things to come; showing us, that in all succeeding generations, 'not the children of the flesh, blood descendants of Abraham, but the children of the promise, they to whom the promise is made, that is, believers, are the children of God".
Gen 21:12You're half right. True belief will manifest in flesh through obedience that is inspired by the the Spirit of Christ and not the Spirit of rebellion and pride.Okay, but that is not what Paul was trying to get crossed to his readers, we must stay in context.




9:For the Word of promise is this, "According to this time I will come, and a son will be to Sarah."Gen. 18:10
For this is the word of the promise
By the way which Isaac was conceived, not by the work of the flesh, but by faith & obedience, they shall inherit the blessing. Genesis 18:10True faith and true obedience are not separate. One begats the other. True faith inspires true reason to obey. True reasons to obey inspire true faith.
Amen, I whole heartedly agree, amen!





That's all I will say for now as I could be here for a Month if I respond to the entire post.
But I will close with this:


Colossians 2:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:4;&version=31;)4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.


2 Timothy 4:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%204:3-4;&version=31;) 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.


Ezekiel 37:15-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2037:15-23;&version=31;) 15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 "Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, 'Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.' Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, 'Ephraim's stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.' 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand. 18 "When your countrymen ask you, 'Won't you tell us what you mean by this?' 19 say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim's hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.' 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

Christian and Jew are supposed to be the same person. Jew and Christian are supposed to be the same person.

If one does not become the other, then can they really pontificate to be Gods people? Not according to a simple understanding of the word of God.True, I agree.


I hope and pray this is the beginning of the explanation that God was will have you look for, rather than one you presume to know.Huh?

Back2Front
Nov 14th 2008, 11:00 PM
I think you and I have a very different concept of the meaning and depth of one single word.

Below is a quote from your last post to me, and that word emphasized.

What is meant by a "flesh descendant" is that by ancestry, a physical lineage by blood, not by adoption as we are.

Diolectic
Nov 14th 2008, 11:40 PM
I think you and I have a very different concept of the meaning and depth of one single word.

Below is a quote from your last post to me, and that word emphasized.

What is meant by a "flesh descendant" is that by ancestry, a physical lineage by blood, not by adoption as we are. I take the word "adoption" to mean:
To take into one's family through legal means and raise as one's own child.
This is not by birth, or blood.

The adpted child never becaomes from the same blood line.
My friend adopted an Ethiopian child.
You can trace his blood line down to them who dwell in Ethiopia, but not to England, from where his parents are from..

Paul was not speaking in spiritual terms when he talks about Israel.

Back2Front
Nov 14th 2008, 11:45 PM
I take the word "adoption" to mean:
To take into one's family through legal means and raise as one's own child.
This is not by birth, or blood.

The adpted child never becaomes from the same blood line.
My friend adopted an Ethiopian child.
You can trace his blood line down to them who dwell in Ethiopia, but not to England, from where his parents are from..

Paul was not speaking in spiritual terms when he talks about Israel.

Avery human understanding and proves our differences.

BroRog
Nov 15th 2008, 12:33 AM
If you would, please explain how each verse's commentary is incorrect.
For, I have kept the flow of thought in each verse and the doo all work together.

If I attempt to comment on each verse, one-at-a-time, I would be doing the very thing I encouraged you to avoid. :)

As I see it, your commentary fails to grasp the major thread of Paul's chain of thought for two main reasons: 1) your explanation does not seem to understand the rational behind Paul's rhetorical questions, and 2) since your commentary understands no rhetorical purpose for Paul's questions, it tends to run contrary to Paul's intended meaning.

I take note of the fact that the rhetorical structure of Romans has changed after chapter 5, whereby Paul has decided to break up subsequent sections into logical divisions initiated by a question as if he were giving a lecture and chapters 6 through 11 were part of the "question-answer period" toward the end.

Each question stems logically from the previous material. He develops his argument to a certain seemingly audacious conclusion, at which point he asks a rhetorical question.

For instance, at the end of chapter 5, Paul makes the claim that, while the Law seemed to increase the instances of sin, presumably by bringing them to the forefront of our consciousness, -- while sin increased, grace abounded all the more. This audacious claim that God's grace out lasts and goes beyond the increase in sin leads to the first question in Romans 6, "Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?"

It would appear to Paul's opponents, that his Gospel naturally leads to an absurd conclusion. If we continue to sin, God will continue to offer his grace, which logically implies that the more I sin, the more I bring God the glory. To explain why his gospel does not promote sin, he asks a leading question in order to give his answer.

***

Your commentary begins with verse 9:6, one of Paul's leading questions. But it fails to understand the rational for the question because, just like Paul's other leading questions, this question is informed by the previous five verses. He sets up the question in verse 9:6 by reminding his readers that the covenants and the promises belong to his kinsmen of the flesh. And while the covenants and promises belong to them, his kinsmen are not receiving those gifts and callings which belong to them. The logical implication of this fact is that: 1. Paul's Gospel is in error, or 2.) God doesn't intend to keep his promise to them anymore.

Paul has individualized the gospel, teaching that a man need not be a citizen of Israel or a natural born descendant of Abraham to find God's favor and salvation. As he says in Galatians, in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, etc. His gospel circumvents God's national promise to his kinsmen and grants salvation individually based on individual faith, not on a group faith as the covenant delineates.

But if we are to understand Paul's argument, we must take into account the rhetorical structure of this section and take his question as logical necessity of his previous statement. When he says, "it isn't as if the word of God has failed", his specific issue is with God's word to save his kinsmen as a group. His individualistic gospel seems to contradict God's word to save Jacob as a group. If God did NOT say through his prophets that he would save Jacob as a group, then Paul's argument is a complete non-sequitor. If it wasn't true that the adoption of sons belonged to his kinsmen, then no national promise was made to them, and where there is no national promise, there can be no failure. God can not be held accountable for a promise he never made.

Suppose that God did not make a promise to save the entire nation. Then if a man were to put forth this claim, Paul would ask him to cite the passage where God made such a claim. But the course of his subsequent argument assumes that such a promise WAS made.

Or suppose the promise was based on a contingency, such that if Israel had not kept her end of the agreement, God was not obligated to fulfill his end of the agreement. This being the case, the word of God would not fail because it didn't depend on him. But again, had this been the case, he would have argued that Israel's failure was the reason for their loss, which means that God's word had not failed -- they failed.

But Paul does not make either one of these arguments. Rather than demanding that we show him the scriptures where God made such a promise, he argues as if one exists. He grants and cedes the point from the beginning. He clearly states in the first five verses that, indeed, the adoption of sons belongs to his kinsmen of the flesh.

He argues that even though God established a relationship with the sons of Jacob as a group, and continues to perpetuate that group relationship, he reserves the right to treat them individually when it comes to granting his mercy. That was God's point to Moses when he said, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." And to get the full impact of this statement we need to go back to Exodus and understand the context into which God made this statement.

When he argues that those who belong to God are God's elect, which is a choice God makes before we are born, this logically leads to another objection: namely, that God is holding us responsible for something over which we had no control. On the heal of this audacious claim, Paul asks whether God is just. This question logically follows his earlier claim and if we are to understand the full impact of his question, we take account of his earlier statement. If indeed, we were choosing salvation for ourselves and God was not granting his salvation exclusively to his elect, then there would be no reason for Paul to bring up the subject of God's justice. Such a rhetorical question would seem to come flying out of the blue, totally disconnected from his line of thought. But this is not the case for his question logically follows from his audacious claim that God chooses those who will be in his kingdom before any of us are even born.

The reason why Paul's questions are so effective is that they presuppose an answer and follow logically from his previous statements. Had Paul not already claimed that our entrance into heaven is by God's choice before we were born, he would not have asked whether this was fair.

And so it goes with the rest of his questions. Each question presupposes an answer and each question follows logically from his previous (sometimes audacious) statements.

Diolectic
Nov 15th 2008, 02:06 AM
Avery human understanding and proves our differences.What do you mean "human"?
You are human, what is your kind of understanding?

Back2Front
Nov 15th 2008, 02:19 AM
What do you mean "human"?
You are human, what is your kind of understanding?

One that includes both spirit and flesh and operates on both levels, as does biblical adoption, as did Christ.

Diolectic
Nov 15th 2008, 03:04 AM
One that includes both spirit and flesh and operates on both levels, as does biblical adoption, as did Christ.I am aware of Biblical adoption, spiritual adaoption and all that.
However, that ain't what Paul was talking about.
One must keep to the concepts of the context.
Paul was talking about that not all physicaly related to Abraham(contrary to what your implying) is not all Israel.
He wasn't\isn't talking about what you are implying.

Back2Front
Nov 15th 2008, 03:14 AM
I am aware of Biblical adoption, spiritual adaoption and all that.
However, that ain't what Paul was talking about.

That ain't what you have been taught to believe what he is talking about, I agree.


One must keep to the concepts of the context.

As taught and inspired by who or what? Both concept and context are relative to who has the understanding and what inspires the understanding.


Paul was talking about that not all physicaly related to Abraham (contrary to what your implying) is not all Israel.
He wasn't\isn't talking about what you are implying.

He was talking about both. Spiritual and Physical have to both be present to be Israel. You don't seem to understand that if one is truly Spiritually Israel, they will also be Physically Israel and will manifest signs as such. But I don't think you will take that concept because you have been taught and/or seek justifications to make up the law as it suits you and not be Jewish as it were.

Diolectic
Nov 15th 2008, 03:59 AM
That ain't what you have been taught to believe what he is talking about, I agree.

As taught and inspired by who or what? Both concept and context are relative to who has the understanding and what inspires the understanding.

He was talking about both. Spiritual and Physical have to both be present to be Israel. You don't seem to understand that if one is truly Spiritually Israel, they will also be Physically Israel and will manifest signs as such. But I don't think you will take that concept because you have been taught and/or seek justifications to make up the law as it suits you and not be Jewish as it were.You are making assumptions about me which are untrue.
Pleas stop.

Back2Front
Nov 15th 2008, 04:26 AM
You are making assumptions about me which are untrue.
Pleas stop.

I apologize. And I shall. But my assumption is that you are making just as much of an assumption as I am about Scripture.

I am not making assumptions about you specifically I didn't think, because I can relate with where you are coming from.

But I will stop commenting here nonetheless, and I do apologize if I offended you.