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Sir Ed
Nov 13th 2008, 12:18 PM
Please list biblical references that authorize sunday worship ...
as in Mark 2:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=2&verse=28&version=31&context=verse) So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
(( in the above scripture you could also say that Jesus said the Lords Day is the Sabbath! )) YES or NO
or
Genesis 2

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So please in the New Testiment show me were God or Jesus sanctified the changing of worshipping Him from the Seventh Day to the First Day.
Please don't say it is in respect of Jesus Resurrection that is not biblical!
That would be mans way of showing honor, but it also is man taking it upon himself to change the will or desire of God.

(( By the way man seems to be good at changing the word of God to meet mans understanding and wish's. For example lets look at Gods definition of a day please go with me to Genesis 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Not once does he define a day but six times in the first Chapter of the Bible. Yet MAN defines a day as Midnight to Midnight. THIS CHANGES TIME FOR US THRU OUT HISTORY. We see it mans way and GOD descibes and see it HIS way thru out the bible. )) So now in the first book of the Bible and first chapter we have a conflict between man and God.
Just a thought!

No Iam not a 7th Day Adventist. But they are the ones that lead me to
study the day in which we our to worship the Lord and what his will is.

It is a wonderful study and if you do it properly you will find it takes considerable hours (40 to 60 hours) to research it in the Bible and also thru Catholic documents and in ancient history.

Thank You for your time and thoughts on this subject and I await to hear from you on this wonderful subject.

Yours in Christ
Sir Ed

Tanya~
Nov 13th 2008, 06:38 PM
Hi Sir Ed,

I'm just popping in here to let you know your thread has been moved to Bible Chat. Carry on. :)

thegospelgeek
Nov 13th 2008, 07:02 PM
Just off the top of my head;


Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


But a better question might be based on Romans 14, does it matter? If Seventh Day adventist want to worship on Saturday, that's OK. If You want to worship on Tuesdays, that's OK to.

You need to be "fully persuaded" in your own mind. Don't let other's dictate to you. Search the scriptures

Emanate
Nov 13th 2008, 07:13 PM
Is Sabbath about worship, or is it about rest. Should we not worship God every day?

Gospelgeek, that is a perfect eaxample of the believers meeting after Sabbath, on the first day of the week, what we call Saturday Night.

thepenitent
Nov 13th 2008, 07:16 PM
Seems to me which day is considered first and last day of the week is pretty arbitrary. As long as it's one in 7 I think you cover the intent.

Zack702
Nov 13th 2008, 07:20 PM
There are church services on Wednesday also. And in the older times and even today some churches stay open allways so people can come in and have a place to pray and have fellowship. Any day is good but if your looking for some kind of connection between Sunday and worship I do know of one and its easter Sunday.

Sabbath was not just a day for worshiping we are to worship as much as able, but the Sabbath is a day of rest and relaxation and a time to remember why. People go to church on Sunday because it is a good time to and as it would be most people have that time off to go.

Emanate
Nov 13th 2008, 07:25 PM
Any day is good but if your looking for some kind of connection between Sunday and worship I do know of one and its easter Sunday.


That is another can of worms that we will not open today (I won't).

Zack702
Nov 13th 2008, 07:32 PM
That is another can of worms that we will not open today (I won't).

Why not doesn't it fit? Are there things about easter we should know?
Isn't even our current date based upon easter sunday?

Br. Barnabas
Nov 13th 2008, 07:40 PM
I agree with the Acts 20:7 passage showing that worship is on Sunday.

But would also like to point out that since Jesus rose on Sunday and we are people of the Resurrection it only seems right to most people to at least worship our Lord on the day that he defeated Death itself.

Also would like to point out that many "high churches" such as the RCC, Anglican churches, and possibly some Orthodox churches celebrate the Eucharist everyday. In other words they have a church service every morning. Because we should worship the Lord on more than one day a week.

Back2Front
Nov 13th 2008, 07:48 PM
If You want to worship on Tuesdays, that's OK to.


In addition, it's OK to also worship on the Sanctified Day of God he called the Sabbath, which is the 7th day. In fact the rest he requires on that day is a very honored form of worship as it requires obedience and a surrendered heart to his will.

But I'll throw in that your worship on Sundays or Tuesdays or even Mondays, the resting aspect is not necessary as it is not the Sanctified Day of the Lord, and he mentions no specific requirements for those other days other than to Put God first in your life.

The neatest thing about the Sabbath is that it was created for us, as a gift, and we were not created for the Sabbath.

That said, Does that mean that Jesus was created for us if he is our Sabbath? I'de think.

Also, we were not created for Jesus our Sabbath.

That is why I think that to honor the Biblical Sabbath is to Honor Jesus.

Quite Simply, all those types and shadows in the OT that pointed to the Christ, for me now point back at him.

thegospelgeek
Nov 13th 2008, 08:17 PM
In addition, it's OK to also worship on the Sanctified Day of God he called the Sabbath, which is the 7th day. In fact the rest he requires on that day is a very honored form of worship as it requires obedience and a surrendered heart to his will.

But I'll throw in that your worship on Sundays or Tuesdays or even Mondays, the resting aspect is not necessary as it is not the Sanctified Day of the Lord, and he mentions no specific requirements for those other days other than to Put God first in your life.

The neatest thing about the Sabbath is that it was created for us, as a gift, and we were not created for the Sabbath.

That said, Does that mean that Jesus was created for us if he is our Sabbath? I'de think.

Also, we were not created for Jesus our Sabbath.

That is why I think that to honor the Biblical Sabbath is to Honor Jesus.

Quite Simply, all those types and shadows in the OT that pointed to the Christ, for me now point back at him.

I'll go back to Romans 14. If you esteem one above another, I'm OK with that. If you or I, or anyone else feels they need to have a day set aside, that's scriptural. You are free to do so. The man I pastor a church with feels he must keep a sabbath (his is Sunday) in one way, I do another way. Neither is offended. In fact, I feel if everyone read Romans 14 and held it to heart, there would be much less bickering amongst the church. But I guess that is another subject.

Pilgrimtozion
Nov 13th 2008, 08:26 PM
I'll go back to Romans 14. If you esteem one above another, I'm OK with that. If you or I, or anyone else feels they need to have a day set aside, that's scriptural. You are free to do so. The man I pastor a church with feels he must keep a sabbath (his is Sunday) in one way, I do another way. Neither is offended. In fact, I feel if everyone read Romans 14 and held it to heart, there would be much less bickering amongst the church. But I guess that is another subject.
We might also throw in Colossians 2, which states that nobody is to be our judge with regards to Sabbath Days, celebrations, new moons, etc. etc. I don't want to be proof-texting, but the New Testament simply doesn't dictate a certain day upon which to worship. Now the Early Church seemed to have done so on Sunday in honor of the day Jesus rose from the dead, but tradition is no reason to elevate the principle to a Scriptural level. Yes, the New Testament states that people gathered on the first day of the week. So what? Does that mean we have to do so as well? Sabbath or no Sabbath, Sunday or no Sunday, each must be convinced in his own mind and do what he does from faith.

I'll stick to Colossians 2, which says I shouldn't be the judge of another person concerning these things. You want to do the Sabbath? Great! You want to do Sunday? Sweet as, bro!

Emanate
Nov 13th 2008, 08:38 PM
Why not doesn't it fit? Are there things about easter we should know?
Isn't even our current date based upon easter sunday?


You bet there is. Stick around the boards, I am sure it will come up.

Back2Front
Nov 13th 2008, 08:39 PM
I'll go back to Romans 14. If you esteem one above another, I'm OK with that. If you or I, or anyone else feels they need to have a day set aside, that's scriptural. You are free to do so. The man I pastor a church with feels he must keep a sabbath (his is Sunday) in one way, I do another way. Neither is offended. In fact, I feel if everyone read Romans 14 and held it to heart, there would be much less bickering amongst the church. But I guess that is another subject.

I completely agree. I have no problem with those who's faith is weaker than mine. Nor do I judge those who have less of an understanding than me, as we all start somewhere. I share my experience. If one is convicted by my words in anger, then I try to appease them and make peace. If one is convicted in my words and asks further, I spend as much of my time to explain.

I have a deep understanding of where Paul the Rabbi, as well as Paul the Apostle is coming from. Paul the Rabbi would never give anyone license to disobey the law. Rather Paul the apostle provides a loving launchpad for those to have time and grow to understand it as Christ intends. And by 'those' I mean gentiles who were not born being taught the whole of it.

Romans 14 is Paul, through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, protecting those new to the faith not to be discouraged by the arrogant discouragers. Paul understands, and has faith that the Holy Spirit, if one truly has the Holy Spirit, he will educate in time and inspire the new believer to understand the law as it was intended from the foundations of the earth.

thegospelgeek
Nov 13th 2008, 08:51 PM
I can't believe it. It sounds as if most of us are in agreement! Amen Brothers and Sisters :spin:

Veretax
Nov 14th 2008, 01:33 PM
Is Sabbath about worship, or is it about rest. Should we not worship God every day?

Gospelgeek, that is a perfect eaxample of the believers meeting after Sabbath, on the first day of the week, what we call Saturday Night.

Amen, those who are Christs should worship in Spirit and Truth. Just as the Sacrifices in the temple were temporary, now we have a living sacrifice that covers us every day of the year. Thus we should worship God in all that we do.

theBelovedDisciple
Nov 14th 2008, 11:42 PM
That said, Does that mean that Jesus was created for us if he is our Sabbath? I'de think.
------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I'd like some clarification as to your statement here...... Do you believe Jesus was 'created' at some time?

The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is ETERNAL.. having no beginning and no end.. He HAS ALWAYS BEEN....


I'm just wondering by this statement.. you've written....

Back2Front
Nov 14th 2008, 11:52 PM
That said, Does that mean that Jesus was created for us if he is our Sabbath? I'de think.
------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I'd like some clarification as to your statement here...... Do you believe Jesus was 'created' at some time?

The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is ETERNAL.. having no beginning and no end.. He HAS ALWAYS BEEN....


I'm just wondering by this statement.. you've written....

So this would stand to reason that somebody has a misunderstanding of the Fact that "Jesus is our Sabbath", And what the 7th day Sabbath is and how they parrallel or whatever.

as a follow up, Yes, Jesus became a man in a birth Mary had at an appointed time, grew to manhood and died. That form of God is specific as well as his eternal self.

kenrank
Nov 20th 2008, 05:24 PM
Two quick points. First, there is a difference between a day of rest, and worship. Worship can be done any day, Sunday, Saturday, there is like 4 or 5 more. (that was a joke) But there is a specific day of rest which God Himself took. Was He tired, did He really need the day off? I don't see how, He is God after all. I believe He took that day as an example for mankind to follow. The day of rest was given at creation to mankind after all. An example similar to when He was with Abraham and said He heard the cries of sin coming out of Sodom. Didn't he already know what was happening there? Did He really need to go down and double check? Of course not, this too was an example...in this case, for Abraham to understand the need to verify before passing judgement. One more, do you believe Jesus is God? If so, why did he pray to God? Isn't it possible he was showing us by example how he wanted us to act? I mean, if God wasn't tired on the 7th day, and already knew what the sin in Sodom was about, isn't that reasonable too?

My second point is about the "Lord's Day." Many believe this to be Sunday, I believe it is an "event." In the Tanach, (OT) we see many uses of "The Day of the Lord." In every case, it is refering to the end times. It is even called "The great and terrible day of the Lord." I assume great for His children, not so great if you aren't?

Revelation was "probably" written in Hebrew, John was a Jew. Even if not, the use of Hebrew phraseology and idioms are clearly evident. Now, what was John doing in Revelation? He was witnessing and recording the "end times." He says, "I was in the spirit on the Lord's day." Should we believe this is Sunday? Why? John was watching "The Day of the Lord" and recording it in much the same way Daniel did, albeit with deeper revelation, hence the books name.

If I said, "In the book is pages," or I said, "pages are in the book," what is the difference? Nothing of course, I simply changed the wording around to say the same thing. So I ask you, what is the difference between "The Day of The LORD," and "The LORD'S Day?" I would hope you would say, "nothing."

Since "Lord's day" appears ONLY one time in the NT, (Rev. 1:10) and the author of it is watching the end times unfold before his eyes, an event called "The Day of the Lord" in the OT," then wouldn't it seem more reasonable to think that it wasn't a day of the week John was watching, but an event by that name?

Peace.
Ken

RJ Mac
Nov 20th 2008, 06:18 PM
Sir Ed - the question is list scriptures that support Sunday worship.
Sunday worship I take it, is referring to collective worship, when the church,
the people, gather together to uplift and encourage one another.
In the OT the Jews were told to keep the Sabbath, the last day of the week.

In the NT the Christians set the example for us to keep the first day of the week.
Ac.20:7 - on the first day of the week when we were gathered to break bread,
referring to communion, the Lord's Table, as instructed in the gospels.
and in 1Cor.11:23ff

1Cor.16:2 on the first day of every week each one of you set aside...
1Cor.11-16 are chapters describing the collective assembly of the church.

Mt.28:1; Mk.16:2; Lk.24:1; Jn.20:1 the day Jesus was resurrected.
Rev.1:10 on the Lord's Day - not a day of the Lord, for there are many.

The first day of the week, the Lord's Day, is when the saints collectively
gather together to celebrate the Lord's Table, as we see example in the NT

Not on the Sabbath - end of the week, time to remember your sins, and reflect.
The first day of the week, new beginning, celebrate the death, burial and res.
and not look back at our sins, for they have been forgiven, but to look ahead
at the new week that lies before us and in light of what Jesus has done for
us, what can we do for others, knowing sin is behind us and salvation is
with us, how can we help others, Heb.10:24,25 let us consider how to
stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own
assembling together.....

Christians could not keep the Sabbath, it was a day of rest, most of us were
slaves, the early church met early in the morning or late at night, the reason
Paul says wait for one another, 1Cor.11:33; It was a hardship to make it
to the one meeting a week, no way would they be doing communion every
day.
People would meet at other times but the collective assembly was done on
the first day of the week, the day Jesus rose from the dead.

We can worship God any time, all the time, but the question is when did the
assembly meet, on the First Day of the Week. 1Cor.11:16;

RJ

kenrank
Nov 20th 2008, 06:36 PM
Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and sat down.

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

We can make verses fit our theology, or we can allow the scripture to say what it says. Notice in verse 14 they sat down. In 42 the word "Gentiles," in 44, "the whole city." In verse 18:4, Greeks are in the synogogue on the Sabbath with the Jews.

The Lord's Day is an event (see my previous post), not a day of the week. It only appears one time in the NT and that was when John was witnessing what the OT calls "The Day of The Lord." That is the end time, when God passes judgement.

I mean NO disrespect...but we have traditions and we have scripture. There is nothing in scripture calling the first day of the week "The Lord's day." So if it isn't from scripture, it must come from tradition.

Peace.
Ken

Emanate
Nov 20th 2008, 08:18 PM
Ac.20:7 - on the first day of the week when we were gathered to break bread,
referring to communion, the Lord's Table, as instructed in the gospels.
and in 1Cor.11:23ff


No, breaking bread was fellowship over meals. Passover (do this in remembrance of me) was but once a year.

RJ Mac
Nov 20th 2008, 09:00 PM
Kenrank - there is nothing in scripture calling the Lord's Day the day of the Lord.
Yes Paul did go to the synagogue on the Sabbath and preach Christ to them
this was the day to capture that audience, it was not the day that Christians
gathered to celebrate the Lord's Table, that was the first day of the week.
Which is not a tradition but an example found in the NT in two locations.
Which then became a tradition practiced by early church fathers in the following centuries.

Emanate - most Christian faiths interpret breaking of bread as Lord's Table
which is/was practiced every first day of the week. I don't know of any
Christian groups that do the Lord's Table once a year. Could you tell me
more about this understanding of yours and who practices it beside the Jews.

RJ

kenrank
Nov 20th 2008, 09:21 PM
RJ, there us nothing in scripture calling Sunday the "Lord's Day" either.

So you think when John was watching the end time known as "The Day of the Lord," and said "I was in the spirit on the Lord's Day," he was talking about Sunday and not the "event" he was there to record?

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

The day of the Lord is the end RJ, the time of destruction. John was watching and recording this event.

But...you are welcome to believe whatever you want. I don't think anymore or less of you.

Peace.
Ken

RJ Mac
Nov 20th 2008, 10:38 PM
Kenrank - John is sitting on the Lord's Day and witnessing a panoramic view of the
future, for the present church, he writes the 7 letters, he talks of Satan
being defeated and cast into the abyss, is this the day of the Lord?
He talks of 1,000 yrs reign and then hades and death thrown into the lake
of fire, is this the day of the Lord?

How could John be resting on the Lord's day and looking into the future and
writing concerning the Lord's day and which of those days mentioned is the
Lord's day?

RJ

Emanate
Nov 20th 2008, 10:44 PM
How could John be resting on the Lord's day and looking into the future and
writing concerning the Lord's day and which of those days mentioned is the
Lord's day?

RJ


John was resting on the Lord's Day?

RJ Mac
Nov 21st 2008, 03:33 AM
Emanate - sorry - He was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day.

RJ

kenrank
Nov 21st 2008, 06:12 AM
RJ, you can win me over by sharing a verse that calls the first day of the week "The Lord's Day." I have no axe to grind, I don't have to be right, there is no pride in this. However, while I am willing to alter my personal views about our faith in practice, it MUST come from scripture. So if you can supply that verse, I will take my first step in that area.

Thanks
Ken

RJ Mac
Nov 21st 2008, 02:15 PM
Kenrank - I am not trying to win you over, just trying to state my faith.
There is a good article on the Lord's Day in the International Standard Bible
Encyclopedia. But that may not be your cup of tea and that's fine.
I do appreciate and respect your opinions and if we clash, iron sharpens iron.

RJ

kenrank
Nov 22nd 2008, 08:26 AM
RJ...we are good brother! No problems! The trouble I would have, and I speak in general, not as much to you...is scripture. Everything we understand about Messiah comes from scripture. There is little historical evidence that details his life, and who he was. This is mainly because, speaking from a society point of view, Messiah lost. The winners write the history, and though Messiah won in a big way when it comes to spiritual things, or things related to God's Kingdom, the earthly political and religious systems stood against him and wrote the history. So what we know of Messiah comes from scripture.

This is why scripture should always be considered as the final authority on any issue. Without it, we are without him! So when it comes to the Hebrew idiom seen in the OT, "The Day of the Lord," we know based on it's use, it relates always to the end time. When we come into the NT, there is not one verse that moves Sabbath to Sunday, not one verse that does away with the day of rest, and not one verse that calls "Sunday," the "Lord's Day." It has only one appearance in the NT, and that when John was in the spirit recording what Daniel and others called "The day of the Lord." So the wording is backward, but it is saying the same thing. Like I wrote in my first post on the topic, if I said "The house is red," or I said, "red is the house," what difference is there? I am saying the same thing.

So 20+ times in the Tanach (OT) it calls the end time judgement period, "The Day of the Lord." John sits and sees this happening, as well as other related timelines, and he calls it "The Lord's day."

I think we as Christians have lost the point RJ. Passover was celebrated by the Jews looking back at their trek from Egypt. They "passed over" from bondage to freedom. The early disciples continued celebrating this day, but it now had a two fold meaning. It was still honored for what happened in Moses' day, but they also celebrated it in honor of Messiah "passing over" from death unto life. The one time "Easter" is mentioned in scripture, it is a miss translation. Look it up in Strongs, you'll see the Greek word is:

pas'-khah
Of Chaldee origin (compare [H6453]); the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it): - Easter, Passover.

Above is the Greek word for Passover, in Hebrew it is:

peh'-sakh
From H6452; a pretermission, that is, exemption; used only technically of the Jewish Passover (the festival or the victim): - passover (offering).

The Roman church started by Peter and Paul and began to stray from their Hebrew roots after they were killed. Eventually, laws were passed that prohibited keeping Sabbath and it was moved to Sunday under Constantine. Because Messiah rose from the dead on a Sunday, the day took on a special significance....but biblically, Sabbath was never changed and the day the disciples honored his resurrection was not on a particular day of the week, but on the 14th day of the first month. (Lev. 23) Messiah was actually put to death at the same time the passover lambs were being killed. When he rode into Jerusalem on the donkey was the same time the lambs were being brought in to be sacrificed. When they were being inspected by the priests, He was before his accusers also being inspected, in a round about way. The lambs had to be killed before the sun went down, he died before the sun went down. Even Paul wrote to keep the Passover, not Easter:

1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

So with no scripture pointing to Sabbath being moved, no scripture calling Sunday "The Lord's day," and scripture instead pointing away from resurrection day and to Passover, I have to side with scripture.

Mind you, I do NOT judge you for how you practice your faith. If what you see is Sunday being the Lords Day, then more power to you. I hope it remains a source of blessing for you! I, personally, am on my own little journey of trying to practice my faith as closely to those who walked with Messiah as I can. That's what works for me...again, you do as you are led to. It is said that every man should work out his own salvation.
Peace and blessings RJ.
Ken