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Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 01:55 PM
:hmm: I'm just curious to what others think about this. Those who believe in a 7 year tribulation are busy looking for a number of things to happen. Even now they see biblical prophecy being fulfilled and they have a check list to go through before the Lords return( of course the pre-trib view has the church gone and watching these events from heaven) Each event fulfilled would be confirmation of their understanding of scripture(to them anyway)

My question to those who dont share this point of view is this.

If any of the things on the 7 year trib check list were to happen, how would it alter, if at all, your view? If you woke up tomorrow and Damascus was destroyed, or if a peace agreement was signed and an anti-christ rises up? If Russia or Iran were to attack Israel with missiles but miraculously none hit Israel. If two witnesses were to appear on the streets of Jerusalem, or the temple built and sacrifices resumed? If a mark was inforced???

blessings

David Taylor
Nov 13th 2008, 03:29 PM
I don't believe in a 7-year anything; because the NT doesn't mention it (Revelation mentions 5 different sets of 3.5 year periods, and a 5 month period...nothing 7 years therein); and the Daniel passage that is often applied by Pretribbers as a future 7 year period; I believe is incorrectly misapplied. I believe Daniel's 70 week prophecy was about Christ's first coming; and all of the context of that vision was concluded 2000 years ago.

Nonetheless, even without a future 7year trib expectation; I do believe that as the Gospels and Paul taught, things will get worse and worse prior to Christ's return; and there will be a great falling away from the faith.

You don't have to believe in a 7-yr period to believe that things will get really bad, an anti-christ type leader may arise, Christians will be severely persecuted unlike any time on Earth, two literal witnesses may arise, great plagues and disasters will smite the Earth, a final worldwide battle will focus on Megiddo, Christ will return in power and respendant glory in the clouds to gather his faithful followers (living and dead) and change them incorruptible as well as gather and cast the wicked into the everlasting flames.

For me, the context of Daniel 9 is a prophecy that was given about a block of time that contained 70 weeks of years that concluded with Jesus being killed during the final 70th week of that prophecy; and Him making and end to the animal sacrifice and offering system.

Jesus Himself quoted from Daniel 9 several times and applied it to His accomplishments in the 1st century; and no NT endtime passages mention a 7 year period, or mention Daniel's 70th week...so I just don't apply it there...because I can't find a strong enough biblical arguement to do so.

Will be interesting to see how others reply.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 13th 2008, 03:49 PM
:hmm: I'm just curious to what others think about this. Those who believe in a 7 year tribulation are busy looking for a number of things to happen. Even now they see biblical prophecy being fulfilled and they have a check list to go through before the Lords return( of course the pre-trib view has the church gone and watching these events from heaven) Each event fulfilled would be confirmation of their understanding of scripture(to them anyway)

My question to those who dont share this point of view is this.

If any of the things on the 7 year trib check list were to happen, how would it alter, if at all, your view? If you woke up tomorrow and Damascus was destroyed, or if a peace agreement was signed and an anti-christ rises up? If Russia or Iran were to attack Israel with missiles but miraculously none hit Israel. If two witnesses were to appear on the streets of Jerusalem, or the temple built and sacrifices resumed? If a mark was inforced???

blessingsConsidering that the things you mention are expected, I would think the occurrence of any of those things would only tend to confirm one's beliefs, not convince anybody of the need to change them.

mfowler12
Nov 13th 2008, 04:14 PM
One view that I like to hold is that God controls how the end times play out. Who am I to figure out how He can do it or why He should do it a certain way. God has said that He'll save His people from His wrath (re: Lot) but Jesus said that we would be persecuted. :giveup:

I am definitely not a scholar on bible prophecy, so I may be off base with this, but...

What if, that's always bad when that starts a thought, what if Jesus' death was half way through the last week of Daniel's prophecy and we are waiting for the AC to appear and finish off the last part.

Is that a possible outcome?

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 04:26 PM
I don't believe in a 7-year anything; because the NT doesn't mention it (Revelation mentions 5 different sets of 3.5 year periods, and a 5 month period...nothing 7 years therein); and the Daniel passage that is often applied by Pretribbers as a future 7 year period; I believe is incorrectly misapplied. I believe Daniel's 70 week prophecy was about Christ's first coming; and all of the context of that vision was concluded 2000 years ago.

Nonetheless, even without a future 7year trib expectation; I do believe that as the Gospels and Paul taught, things will get worse and worse prior to Christ's return; and there will be a great falling away from the faith.

You don't have to believe in a 7-yr period to believe that things will get really bad, an anti-christ type leader may arise, Christians will be severely persecuted unlike any time on Earth, two literal witnesses may arise, great plagues and disasters will smite the Earth, a final worldwide battle will focus on Megiddo, Christ will return in power and respendant glory in the clouds to gather his faithful followers (living and dead) and change them incorruptible as well as gather and cast the wicked into the everlasting flames.

For me, the context of Daniel 9 is a prophecy that was given about a block of time that contained 70 weeks of years that concluded with Jesus being killed during the final 70th week of that prophecy; and Him making and end to the animal sacrifice and offering system.

Jesus Himself quoted from Daniel 9 several times and applied it to His accomplishments in the 1st century; and no NT endtime passages mention a 7 year period, or mention Daniel's 70th week...so I just don't apply it there...because I can't find a strong enough biblical arguement to do so.

Will be interesting to see how others reply.

:hmm: So all the things I've mentioned (just off the top of my head) can happen, in the order held by the 7 years tribbers and it still would not mean that their view was right? Would you see these events as fulfilled prophecy or just something that happened by chance so to speak?

:hug: blesings

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 04:29 PM
Considering that the things you mention are expected, I would think the occurrence of any of those things would only tend to confirm one's beliefs, not convince anybody of the need to change them.

Wouldn't it just be confirmation for those who held a 7 years trib view? What about those who may not be expecting such events?

:hug: blessings

Tanya~
Nov 13th 2008, 04:29 PM
I hold to the futurist view but not a "7 year tribulation." The 7 years as David pointed out is a reference from Daniel and is known as the "70th Week of Daniel." I do believe this is future, but not that it is 7 years of Tribulation. The Tribulation is 3.5 years and begins halfway into the 7 years.

Here's the scenario as I understand it. The 70th week of Daniel begins when a covenant is confirmed "with many" for "one week" (i.e., 7 years). This will include the Antichrist and Israel and others as well. The Antichrist will not yet be known as such. 3.5 years later, the Antichrist will be revealed when he commits the Abomination of Desolation -- Paul the apostle states that he will go into the temple and claim to be God. When this happens, the Great Tribulation begins. The resurrection (including the rapture) occurs when Jesus returns to earth at the end of that tribulation.

Dan 9:27
Matt 24:15-21
2 Thess 2:1-12

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 04:34 PM
One view that I like to hold is that God controls how the end times play out. Who am I to figure out how He can do it or why He should do it a certain way. God has said that He'll save His people from His wrath (re: Lot) but Jesus said that we would be persecuted. :giveup:

I am definitely not a scholar on bible prophecy, so I may be off base with this, but...

What if, that's always bad when that starts a thought, what if Jesus' death was half way through the last week of Daniel's prophecy and we are waiting for the AC to appear and finish off the last part.

Is that a possible outcome?

Isn't that just a shorter but similar view to the 7 year trib view??

:hug: blessings

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 04:45 PM
I hold to the futurist view but not a "7 year tribulation." The 7 years as David pointed out is a reference from Daniel and is known as the "70th Week of Daniel." I do believe this is future, but not that it is 7 years of Tribulation. The Tribulation is 3.5 years and begins halfway into the 7 years.

Here's the scenario as I understand it. The 70th week of Daniel begins when a covenant is confirmed "with many" for "one week" (i.e., 7 years). This will include the Antichrist and Israel and others as well. The Antichrist will not yet be known as such. 3.5 years later, the Antichrist will be revealed when he commits the Abomination of Desolation -- Paul the apostle states that he will go into the temple and claim to be God. When this happens, the Great Tribulation begins. The resurrection (including the rapture) occurs when Jesus returns to earth at the end of that tribulation.

Dan 9:27
Matt 24:15-21
2 Thess 2:1-12

It still seems similar, but shorter than the 7 years view. So your expecting these events but not everyone is as I see it. They wont be a suprise to you but they might be to others :hmm:

:hug: blessings

mfowler12
Nov 13th 2008, 05:03 PM
Isn't that just a shorter but similar view to the 7 year trib view??

:hug: blessings
Could be, sounds like it, but I don't know. That's why I'm asking.

Tanya~
Nov 13th 2008, 05:10 PM
It still seems similar, but shorter than the 7 years view. So your expecting these events but not everyone is as I see it. They wont be a suprise to you but they might be to others :hmm:

:hug: blessings

There are so many different eschatological views it can be hard to keep them straight. But yes, it can be divided first into two groups -- those who believe in a future fulfillment of these things culminating in the return of Christ, and those who believe all has already been fulfilled. Then there are many different views in between.

Because I am 'futurist, post trib' I would not be surprised to see these things began to take place. I think it could possibly even happen in my lifetime. So much of the necessary 'infrastructure' is in place.

It is similar to the 7 year view, but different on a very important point. Those who believe in a '7 year tribulation' believe in a pretrib rapture, which holds that the Lord will gather His church out of the world before these things are fulfilled -- either right before or at the same time the 7 year covenant is confirmed. I think for a pretribber (I used to be pretrib) to see these things being fulfilled, it would be very distressing because the belief is that they will not see these things or have to go through any of it.

But it hasn't happened yet... it remains to be seen. Maybe soon.

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 05:38 PM
Could be, sounds like it, but I don't know. That's why I'm asking.

It seems to be what Tanya is describing :)

Tanya~
Nov 13th 2008, 05:41 PM
I forgot to mention a third camp... those who believe in a future fulfillment of these things culminating in the return of Christ, those who believe all has already been fulfilled, and those who believe the fulfillment will be (or was) 'spiritual' rather than literal.

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 05:47 PM
I forgot to mention a third camp... those who believe in a future fulfillment of these things culminating in the return of Christ, those who believe all has already been fulfilled, and those who believe the fulfillment will be (or was) 'spiritual' rather than literal.

Yes these are the people I'm curious about. If they believe things happen in the spiritual, or that many things have already taken place, will they be suprised if they literally happen, or happen again? Will it alter how they see things or will it just not be bible prophecy being fulfilled?? :confused Am I making sense? Probably not :lol:

Tanya~
Nov 13th 2008, 05:52 PM
You're making perfect sense. Yes, I think they will be ... not only surprised, but very, very troubled.

David Taylor
Nov 13th 2008, 05:53 PM
:hmm: So all the things I've mentioned (just off the top of my head) can happen, in the order held by the 7 years tribbers and it still would not mean that their view was right? Would you see these events as fulfilled prophecy or just something that happened by chance so to speak?




Well let's re-look at the things you mentioned.


If any of the things on the 7 year trib check list were to happen, how would it alter, if at all, your view? If you woke up tomorrow and Damascus was destroyed, or if a peace agreement was signed and an anti-christ rises up? If Russia or Iran were to attack Israel with missiles but miraculously none hit Israel. If two witnesses were to appear on the streets of Jerusalem, or the temple built and sacrifices resumed? If a mark was inforced???


If Damascus was destroyed tomorrow, it could mean another sign we are closer to Christ's return; but it could also just mean history is rolling onward. Damascus being destroyed in and of itself, is not an event immediately heralding the Return of Christ under any specific time duration.

Since the bible doesn't teach any peace treaty in relation to the end-time events prior to Christ's return (from my understanding of Daniel 9 and the absence of mention in NT writings), then I don't see this being a signpost at all of Christ's Return. Israel has signed peace treaties in the past, and Christ still hasn't returned; so I don't think it is wise personally, to bank my return of Christ expectations on the actions of earthly governments.

If Russia or Iran attacked Israel, why would that mark a closer sign to Christ's return than in the past when Egypt and Jordan, and more recently Lebanon attacked Israel? We known in those cases that many missles and bombs were launched and did find their targets without any divine intervention.

If two witnesses appeared preaching in Jerusalem, and they truly spoke God's Word and taught Jesus Christ Crucified, and were divinely protected from harm...then that to me, would be the most likely signpost of all the things you've mentioned so far. That would be amazing to see!

As for the temple, I don't think a stone temple will ever be rebuilt again, and will ever reinstitute animal sacrifices for the sin offerings to sanctify and cleanse the people...Christ abolished that temple made with hands, and provided a much better one made without hands. Any rebuilt Jewish temple will be a pagan spit in the face of Christ; and would also conflict with Jesus own testimony that the stone building would be destroyed and not one stone left upon another. To rebuild that temple, would be against the very reason God destroyed it to begin with.

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 06:08 PM
:hug: Thank you David, that helps my understanding. I am aware that the temple being built and Damascus being destroyed would be the fulfilling of scripture to many who hold to the 7years trib(or to folks like Tanya?) Whereas most of the things they wait for would not be a fulilling of prophecy to those who believe that the 70th week of Daniel followed the 69th. So basically, these events would have a huge impact on one group and mean very little to the other group? Apart from seeing two divinely protected witnesses which would amaze all :pp

blessings

Literalist-Luke
Nov 13th 2008, 06:23 PM
Wouldn't it just be confirmation for those who held a 7 years trib view? What about those who may not be expecting such events?

:hug: blessingsOh, I misunderstood you, I'm sorry. I thought you were asking people who hold to a 7-year view if we would change our views if those things started happening, I didn't realize you were addressing people who don't hold to that view. Sorry 'bout that. :blush:

Tanya~
Nov 13th 2008, 06:25 PM
There's only one event that heralds the Great Tribulation: The Abomination of Desolation. This is the one event that Jesus clearly stated would signal the beginning of the GT, and it is the event Paul stated would reveal the identity of the Antichrist.

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 06:25 PM
Oh, I misunderstood you, I'm sorry. I thought you were asking people who hold to a 7-year view if we would change our views if those things started happening, I didn't realize you were addressing people who don't hold to that view. Sorry 'bout that. :blush:

:hug: hey, your good,no worries ;)

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 06:30 PM
There's only one event that heralds the Great Tribulation: The Abomination of Desolation. This is the one event that Jesus clearly stated would signal the beginning of the GT, and it is the event Paul stated would reveal the identity of the Antichrist.

But it doesn't sound like that would be fulfilled prophecy to the amill/part pret group, so that would only cause a fuss to the futurists? My question would be, would that make any of the former group think twice if it were to happen? :hmm:

:hug: blessings

Tanya~
Nov 13th 2008, 06:34 PM
But it doesn't sound like that would be fulfilled prophecy to the amill/part pret group, so that would only cause a fuss to the futurists? My question would be, would that make any of the former group think twice if it were to happen? :hmm:

:hug: blessings

I would expect that those who are aware of the prophecy might think twice. At any rate, it will affect everyone whether they acknowledge it to be fulfillment of prophecy or not. When the Antichrist initiates the mark of the beast for example, I would hope that ALL Christians regardless of previously held beliefs on eschatology would understand what is happening and act accordingly.

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 06:40 PM
I would expect that those who are aware of the prophecy might think twice. At any rate, it will affect everyone whether they acknowledge it to be fulfillment of prophecy or not. When the Antichrist initiates the mark of the beast for example, I would hope that ALL Christians regardless of previously held beliefs on eschatology would understand what is happening and act accordingly.

:hmm: So you believe (from your understanding)that if something comes into being that seems like the mark, then everyone who doesn't believe it is the biblical mark, should back down from their understanding of scripture? :confused

:hug: blessings

mizzdy
Nov 13th 2008, 06:48 PM
I am on the fence about Daniels 70th week. But as far as Damascus goes it isn't part of Daniels week, its from Isaiah 17 which I think is part of Psalms 83 war. Daniels 70th never says there is a peace treaty or convenant just that it is somehow renewed. So perhaps after hizbullah and the rest come against Israel and they are all taken care of who ever helps stop the fighting will be the one to set himself up on the temple mount? Even if I were a die hard believer in the 70th week nothing would change my faith or mind it would just prove to me that I didn't have any of it right! :lol: I do know not to take the mark, not to worship the beast and Christ is the only one that can save me so prophecy is wonderful to read, study and discuss but for the most part we are all way far apart in so many areas it does tell me none of us have it all down pat.

Tanya~
Nov 13th 2008, 06:50 PM
:hmm: So you believe (from your understanding)that if something comes into being that seems like the mark, then everyone who doesn't believe it is the biblical mark, should back down from their understanding of scripture? :confused

:hug: blessings

Absolutely, if their understanding of Scripture somehow has them thinking it would be no problem to take the mark and worship the Beast.

Rev 14:9-10
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
NKJV

But it will not be something "that seems like" the mark. If it isn't what is clearly spelled out in Rev 13, then it's not the mark. It has to come about in the context of the two beasts, the miracles and the image of worship, and economic activity as clearly spelled out in the chapter.

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 06:57 PM
:hmm: But what if satan did his own version and confused folks? It may look like prophecy being fulfilled but it's not. We know that satan is able to deceive many. Folks would be starving themselves to death and it may not be the mark? :o

This is going off into a mark discussion, but it could be any other event ( like the 2 witnesses appearing in sackcloth) that would make people doubt the view they have always held. :)

:hug: blessings

third hero
Nov 13th 2008, 06:57 PM
There's only one event that heralds the Great Tribulation: The Abomination of Desolation. This is the one event that Jesus clearly stated would signal the beginning of the GT, and it is the event Paul stated would reveal the identity of the Antichrist.

This statement, I could not agree more with you. The single, transparent moment that we can all see that will guarentee that the Lord will come in our lifetimes is indeed the Abomination that causes desolation, (Matthew 24:15-22).

As Paul stated in 2 Thessalonians 2, the day of the Lord's return will not happen until the falling awy happens and the man of sin is revealed, the same one who will stand in the Holy of Holies and proclaim himself to be God. This, to me, is the abomination that causes desolation, mainly because acording to the OT, no one would be able to stand in the Holy of Holies and live, unless they were wearing a specific ephod. If someone goes into that part of the temple, not wearing the ephod, and proclaims his godhood without dying, then that to me is the single mement that all of us can hang our hats on.

Now to those who believe as David, I totally understand now what you are saying, and most of it I am compelled to agree with. For those like David, the signs have to be written in the NT in order to be believed, and thus the OT prophecies, in a sense, do not matter. What I mean is that those who believe as mr Taylor does (David, not Bing), OT prophecies that may not have been fulfilled may not necessarily be connected to the NT prophecies concerning the return of the Lord. I agree with the portion of scriptures that the most important signs of the return of the Lord, and thus the ones that we should pay the most attention to, are th e ones found in the New Testament. Where I disagree is the significance of the OT prophecies. I believe that the OT prophecies that have not been fulfilled are mentioned in the NT text, and will be fulfilled in context to the return of the Lord. One of my examples is the feast of birds found in Ezekiel 39; it's fulfillment is found in Revelation 19.

Concerning the seven-year tribulation, it is my opinion that this idea was created and propagated by the pre-trib POV, otherwise known as dispensationalism. Most post-tribbers, whether they be futurists or amil, disagree with this notion for one reason or another. My reasons actually mirror those of David Taylor and Tanya. Seven years was not mentioned in either Revelation or Matthew 24. Therefore, I am not inclined to believe it. It is mentioned that there will be a period of 3.5 years when the two prophets torment the world, followed by their deaths at the hands of the Beast, followed by the 3.5 years of the Beast attacking and defeating the saints. The 3.5 years of the prophets' torment, I do not believe is part of the Great Tribulation, mainly because those who are affected are the wicked, especially since the purpose of the two prophets will be to bring people to God and warn the world of their rebellion against God. And so, I do not believe that CHristians will be persecuted, mainly because the world will be horrified by these two Christians prophets.

Therefore, the only 3.5 years that I attribute to the Great Tribulation is the 3.5 years when the Beast wages war agaisnt the saints (Revelation 13:4). Any other time, including the unfulfilled OT prophecies, although in my opinion they willl find their fulfillment concurrent to the signs of His return, really are secondary to the actual signs of His return, those found in Mathew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17, 1 Thes 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:23-26, and Revelation 6-20:6).

Tanya~
Nov 13th 2008, 07:07 PM
:hmm: But what if satan did his own version and confused folks?

I'm not sure what you mean, because the mark is Satan's version.



It may look like prophecy being fulfilled but it's not. We know that satan is able to deceive many. Folks would be starving themselves to death and it may not be the mark? :o

If a mark is required for people to take in their right hand or forehead in order to buy or sell, in the context of worshiping an image, it will be the mark. Yes, people are going to be deceived... but they will be deceived into TAKING the mark, not into rejecting the mark.

There won't be something that forces people to take a mark before they can buy or sell on pain of death that isn't the mark of the beast.


This is going off into a mark discussion, but it could be any other event ( like the 2 witnesses appearing in sackcloth) that would make people doubt the view they have always held. :)

:hug: blessings

The two witnesses will be killed, lie dead in the open for a few days while the world rejoices over their death, and then be raised from the dead. I would certainly hope that Christians would rethink their views if they didn't think these things were going to happen. When it's happening before your eyes you have an opportunity to connect the dots.

But don't forget that there will be great deception at this time.

Matt 24:24-25
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
NKJV

2 Thess 2:9-12
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
NKJV

This is why Jesus commands us to watch and pray -- to pay attention to what's going on, and to pray that He will give us the way of escape from what is to come.

Luke 21:34-36

"But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."
NKJV

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 07:10 PM
Thank you third hero for your input.

So I'm getting myself confused now :lol: It happens often! I think I've got a hold of the main points of view and realise that there are many who slightly alter these views as their understandings differ. Yet as far as I can tell, no one has said they would have to reconsider their view. Or would any amills/part prets change their point of view with the appearing of a mark, or two witnesses?? :hmm:

:hug: blessings

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 07:14 PM
I'm not sure what you mean, because the mark is Satan's version.



If a mark is required for people to take in their right hand or forehead in order to buy or sell, in the context of worshiping an image, it will be the mark. Yes, people are going to be deceived... but they will be deceived into TAKING the mark, not into rejecting the mark.

There won't be something that forces people to take a mark before they can buy or sell on pain of death that isn't the mark of the beast.

:hmm: how can you be so sure?



The two witnesses will be killed, lie dead in the open for a few days while the world rejoices over their death, and then be raised from the dead. I would certainly hope that Christians would rethink their views if they didn't think these things were going to happen. When it's happening before your eyes you have an opportunity to connect the dots.

But don't forget that there will be great deception at this time.

Yes thats my worry :hmm:

Matt 24:24-25
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
NKJV

2 Thess 2:9-12
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
NKJV

This is why Jesus commands us to watch and pray -- to pay attention to what's going on, and to pray that He will give us the way of escape from what is to come.

Luke 21:34-36

"But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."
NKJV

:hug: Thank you Tanya, but again you see things differently from the other group, they might not agree :hmm:

Tanya~
Nov 13th 2008, 07:20 PM
You're right and I do hope someone from that point of view offers you an answer, and I hope the answer is YES! I don't think they will have any choice when reality is happening around them. As long as these things aren't happening it is comfortable to have whatever view one happens to hold. But once they do start to happen, that will change one way or the other.

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 07:22 PM
I am on the fence about Daniels 70th week. But as far as Damascus goes it isn't part of Daniels week, its from Isaiah 17 which I think is part of Psalms 83 war. Daniels 70th never says there is a peace treaty or convenant just that it is somehow renewed. So perhaps after hizbullah and the rest come against Israel and they are all taken care of who ever helps stop the fighting will be the one to set himself up on the temple mount? Even if I were a die hard believer in the 70th week nothing would change my faith or mind it would just prove to me that I didn't have any of it right! :lol: I do know not to take the mark, not to worship the beast and Christ is the only one that can save me so prophecy is wonderful to read, study and discuss but for the most part we are all way far apart in so many areas it does tell me none of us have it all down pat.

:hug: I didn't mean to miss you out, I didn't see your post in there! You probably have the safest option :lol:

third hero
Nov 13th 2008, 07:26 PM
Thank you third hero for your input.

So I'm getting myself confused now :lol: It happens often! I think I've got a hold of the main points of view and realise that there are many who slightly alter these views as their understandings differ. Yet as far as I can tell, no one has said they would have to reconsider their view. Or would any amills/part prets change their point of view with the appearing of a mark, or two witnesses?? :hmm:

:hug: blessings

You know, what I have figured out is that the Amil POV, likened to the Post-trib premil and pre-trib POV, differ quite a bit. For instance, there are those like David Taylor, who derive their POV from NT sources, and there are others like wpm who derive their POV from other people. Both fall into the Amil umbrella, but the differences that each of them hold are as stark as some of the differences between the Post-trib and pre-trib POV.

Now, as far as anyone changing their POV, I do not believe that the two witnesses are enough to have the post-trib premils change their minds, since we account for the two witnesses as part of our timeline to the return. To those who believe as David, they may not end up changing their POV, because the fact that the two witnesses are found in the New Testament will give them cause to include them in their timelines as well. Honestly, the only ones who will have to give pause are the dispensationalists, who believe that the "rapture" will happen before the Lord returns to rule the earth. I also believe that those who hold to the full preterism POV, which is not discussed in this forum due to the fact that the mainstream church finds this view blasphemous, will have to change their view as well, since the appearing of the two witnesses will shatter their view altogether.

Honestly, I believe that some Amils who believe that the Mark is not a literal Mark will have to change their view when the Mark is revealed, ewither that or take the Mark and suffer the consequences, (including but not limited to loss of salvation). But until then, I do not believe anyone will change their POV until they either study the scriptures without preconditions or when the Abomination of Desolation comes.

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 07:32 PM
You know, what I have figured out is that the Amil POV, likened to the Post-trib premil and pre-trib POV, differ quite a bit. For instance, there are those like David Taylor, who derive their POV from NT sources, and there are others like wpm who derive their POV from other people. Both fall into the Amil umbrella, but the differences that each of them hold are as stark as some of the differences between the Post-trib and pre-trib POV.

Now, as far as anyone changing their POV, I do not believe that the two witnesses are enough to have the post-trib premils change their minds, since we account for the two witnesses as part of our timeline to the return. To those who believe as David, they may not end up changing their POV, because the fact that the two witnesses are found in the New Testament will give them cause to include them in their timelines as well. Honestly, the only ones who will have to give pause are the dispensationalists, who believe that the "rapture" will happen before the Lord returns to rule the earth. I also believe that those who hold to the full preterism POV, which is not discussed in this forum due to the fact that the mainstream church finds this view blasphemous, will have to change their view as well, since the appearing of the two witnesses will shatter their view altogether.

Honestly, I believe that some Amils who believe that the Mark is not a literal Mark will have to change their view when the Mark is revealed, ewither that or take the Mark and suffer the consequences, (including but not limited to loss of salvation). But until then, I do not believe anyone will change their POV until they either study the scriptures without preconditions or when the Abomination of Desolation comes.

Thank you for that run down. I guess your right, those who believe in a spiritual mark will have problems if a literal mark comes on the scene,but not much else should change their view. I'm not sure about the abomination though, what if you dont believe in that point of view? :confused

:hug: blessings

third hero
Nov 13th 2008, 07:36 PM
Thank you for that run down. I guess your right, those who believe in a spiritual mark will have problems if a literal mark comes on the scene,but not much else should change their view. I'm not sure about the abomination though, what if you dont believe in that point of view? :confused

:hug: blessings

Well, concerning the Abomination that causes Desolation, the reason why I say that this is the turning point in which all Christians should pay attention is because according to scripture, this event will usher in the Great Tribulation. Once this event happens, the pre-trib POV is completely distroyed, since this event is actually the first day of the Great Tribulation, and with that, the people can no longer say that the Lord is coming before then.

There are those who do not believe that the AoD is the pivotal point in our history, and part of their reasoning is connected to the idea of another temple being built. I would explain this more, but I am about to be late for work. I will come back to this later. Sorry:B

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 07:42 PM
Well, concerning the Abomination that causes Desolation, the reason why I say that this is the turning point in which all Christians should pay attention is because according to scripture, this event will usher in the Great Tribulation. Once this event happens, the pre-trib POV is completely distroyed, since this event is actually the first day of the Great Tribulation, and with that, the people can no longer say that the Lord is coming before then.

There are those who do not believe that the AoD is the pivotal point in our history, and part of their reasoning is connected to the idea of another temple being built. I would explain this more, but I am about to be late for work. I will come back to this later. Sorry:B

Dont work too hard :)

blessings

mfowler12
Nov 13th 2008, 07:59 PM
David Taylor,

I may not understand you correctly and if so, please forgive me.

You mention that the NT doesn't reflect a 7 year tribulation. What do you think about this?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024:15;Daniel%209:27;Daniel%2011: 31;Daniel%2012:11;&version=50;

Jesus said that there would be an ‘abomination of desolation' that was spoken by Daniel. So, I go back to Daniel, using the referenced verses in Matthew 24 (Daniel 9:27, 11:31, 12:11) and I see that Daniel is talking about in 9:27 a "confirmed covenant" that lasts a week and during the middle of the week, the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus mentioned happens. Could that be a clue to a 7 year (1 week) tribulation?

Also, how will this happen without a new temple?


31 And forces[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024:15;Daniel%209:27;Daniel%2011: 31;Daniel%2012:11;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-22062a)] shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

I think it is quite possible that a third temple built by Israel could very well be a sign of what is to come.

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 08:04 PM
David Taylor,

I may not understand you correctly and if so, please forgive me.

You mention that the NT doesn't reflect a 7 year tribulation. What do you think about this?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024:15;Daniel%209:27;Daniel%2011: 31;Daniel%2012:11;&version=50;

Jesus said that there would be an ‘abomination of desolation' that was spoken by Daniel. So, I go back to Daniel, using the referenced verses in Matthew 24 (Daniel 9:27, 11:31, 12:11) and I see that Daniel is talking about in 9:27 a "confirmed covenant" that lasts a week and during the middle of the week, the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus mentioned happens. Could that be a clue to a 7 year (1 week) tribulation?

Also, how will this happen without a new temple?



I think it is quite possible that a third temple built by Israel could very well be a sign of what is to come.

:hmm: Thats a whole different subject and I can't speak for David, but many folks believe that the abomination that Jesus spoke of occured when the temple was destroyed in 70AD.

:hug: Blessings

mfowler12
Nov 13th 2008, 08:08 PM
:hmm: Thats a whole different subject and I can't speak for David, but many folks believe that the abomination that Jesus spoke of occured when the temple was destroyed in 70AD.

:hug: Blessings

Then what's the deal with this verse?


“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 08:10 PM
;) You should post a new thread and ask about it. You will get lots of answers I'm sure:lol:

:hug: blessings

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 08:19 PM
What brought me to ask this question was a conversation I had with an older friend of mine. Her parents, and their parents before that were covenant/amill believers. Her uncle was even a pastor. When Israel became an nation, everything they believed was overturned(or so they thought) and 90% of her family changed to a dispensational view and left the churches they attended for so long, even pastored! Since then the family has been raised with this new point of view.

Now Israel to them was prophecy fulfilled and they felt compelled to change their understanding of scripture. So I'm trying to work out what future event could cause other covenant/amills to change like that.:hmm:

:hug: Blessings

Tanya~
Nov 13th 2008, 09:17 PM
I would think any of the major signs would cause a rethinking of position for many amils. For example, the Temple Institute in Jerusalem is already prepared, when (and if) the Jews are ever permitted to build a new temple, to install priests and begin worship according to the Jewish laws. At this moment it seems impossible that the Jews would ever be able to do that.

It is necessary that a literal temple exist in the future in order to have the AofD occur literally in the future. As long as there is no temple, there can be no Abomination of Desolation, and it can be reasonable to believe the Abomination of Desolation took place in AD 70 -- except for the fact that there was no A of D in AD 70. The temple was burned down from the outside and nobody entered the holy place to commit the abomination.

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 09:23 PM
I would think any of the major signs would cause a rethinking of position for many amils. For example, the Temple Institute in Jerusalem is already prepared, when (and if) the Jews are ever permitted to build a new temple, to install priests and begin worship according to the Jewish laws. At this moment it seems impossible that the Jews would ever be able to do that.

It is necessary that a literal temple exist in the future in order to have the AofD occur literally in the future. As long as there is no temple, there can be no Abomination of Desolation, and it can be reasonable to believe the Abomination of Desolation took place in AD 70 -- except for the fact that there was no A of D in AD 70. The temple was burned down from the outside and nobody entered the holy place to commit the abomination.

:) Hey there, welcome back.

If they dont see the building of a temple as fulfilled prophecy then it would not make a difference to anyone. It's a regular thing, albeit a big deal because of the difficulty they have with the Dome and such. :hmm:

Tanya~
Nov 13th 2008, 09:33 PM
True but the point is that if a temple were to be built, some might rethink it.

The attitude of most amils about any future physical temple has already been expressed by David, and for that reason you're right, many will not accept it as pointing to future fulfillment of prophecy. But I do think that some might think twice, especially when the AofD takes place.

IBWatching
Nov 13th 2008, 09:40 PM
...It is similar to the 7 year view, but different on a very important point. Those who believe in a '7 year tribulation' believe in a pretrib rapture, which holds that the Lord will gather His church out of the world before these things are fulfilled -- either right before or at the same time the 7 year covenant is confirmed. I think for a pretribber (I used to be pretrib) to see these things being fulfilled, it would be very distressing because the belief is that they will not see these things or have to go through any of it...

Just curious. Not all post-tribbers who believe the Church is in the trib believe that it is effected by it. Some believe the Church is there but is Protected by God. You don't believe that, right?

The other issue I wanted to address is the attitude toward pre-tribbers. You seem to be saying that once the tribulation period starts and the Church is still there, pre-tribbers will be "distressed". In what way? If you believe the Church is in the trib and is not protected, do you plan on taking the mark of the beast? Otherwise, your lot in the trib won't be any different than anyone else in the Church, according to your thinking.

I don't think I will be misinterpreting anything if that were true. Nor would I misinterpret severe persecution for the trib if it comes here in the US. We have to remember that the early Church endured great persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire, the only "Superpower" which existed at that time. Does that situation sound familiar? I seem to be seeing many things being "mirrored" from the way they were in the first century. There's no guarantee that the same thing might not happen in regards to persecution...before the trib even starts.

For this pre-tribber, the rapture timing is not about the physical disposition of the Church. In or out of the trib.

Tanya~
Nov 13th 2008, 09:59 PM
Just curious. Not all post-tribbers who believe the Church is in the trib believe that it is effected by it. Some believe the Church is there but is Protected by God. You don't believe that, right?

What do you mean by protected? I do believe the church as a whole is protected, but not that all Christians will be spared from suffering the persecution of Antichrist. When the mark of the Beast is initiated, there will believers who will die for refusing it (Rev 14:13). I think Jesus wants us to pray for escape, not to assume it (Luke 21:34-36).


The other issue I wanted to address is the attitude toward pre-tribbers. You seem to be saying that once the tribulation period starts and the Church is still there, pre-tribbers will be "distressed". In what way? If you believe the Church is in the trib and is not protected, do you plan on taking the mark of the beast? Otherwise, your lot in the trib won't be any different than anyone else in the Church, according to your thinking.

I hope what I said didn't offend you. I believed the pretrib view for years, and speak from my own perspective of how I would feel if I were a pretribber and saw the Abomination of Desolation. I was taught that we wouldn't see these things, so if we did, I would be distressed thinking either I missed the rapture somehow, or that the rapture wasn't going to happen before the Tribulation. I would be completely caught off-guard and unprepared to face the things to come. As a posttribber, I do pray Luke 21:36. Previously, I assumed it as a given. As a pretribber, I assumed Rev 3:10 as a given for the whole church unconditionally rather than noting there was a condition attached, and the fact that only that one church out of 7 was given that particular promise.


I don't think I will be misinterpreting anything if that were true. Nor would I misinterpret severe persecution for the trib if it comes here in the US. We have to remember that the early Church endured great persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire, the only "Superpower" which existed at that time. Does that situation sound familiar? I seem to be seeing many things being "mirrored" from the way they were in the first century. There's no guarantee that the same thing might not happen in regards to persecution...before the trib even starts.

That's what's most important to me. American Christians have had things really easy, and the appeal of a pretrib rapture is very attractive, because we are not used to suffering and we like theh idea of avoiding it. Where I come from, a pretrib rapture was used as a sort of a 'selling point' for the gospel.


For this pre-tribber, the rapture timing is not about the physical disposition of the Church. In or out of the trib.

For me, it's about what the Scripture says. I as a pretribber kept bumping up against some troubling Scriptures that seemed to be saying otherwise, and that's why I switched. But this isn't a debate on pre-post-mid - prewrath... that's for another thread :)

IBWatching
Nov 13th 2008, 10:23 PM
...I hope what I said didn't offend you...

It didn't. :)


...I believed the pretrib view for years, and speak from my own perspective of how I would feel if I were a pretribber and saw the Abomination of Desolation. I was taught that we wouldn't see these things, so if we did, I would be distressed thinking either I missed the rapture somehow, or that the rapture wasn't going to happen before the Tribulation. I would be completely caught off-guard and unprepared to face the things to come. As a posttribber, I do pray Luke 21:36. Previously, I assumed it as a given. As a pretribber, I assumed Rev 3:10 as a given for the whole church unconditionally rather than noting there was a condition attached, and the fact that only that one church out of 7 was given that particular promise.

Just curious. Were you raised SBC or AoG?


...Where I come from, a pretrib rapture was used as a sort of a 'selling point' for the gospel.

Ummm...I don't agree with that "method". First things first.


For me, it's about what the Scripture says. I as a pretribber kept bumping up against some troubling Scriptures that seemed to be saying otherwise, and that's why I switched. But this isn't a debate on pre-post-mid - prewrath... that's for another thread :)

Understood. But we agree on the physical disposition of the Church. That we were never promised "escape" from death or persecution. :)

Tanya~
Nov 13th 2008, 10:30 PM
It didn't. :)



Just curious. Were you raised SBC or AoG?

Neither. I was not raised Christian, but when I became a Christian I was exposed to a lot of pretrib teaching. The church my husband and I attended didn't even hold to any particular eschatological view, but I listened to a lot of Christian radio and the predominant view of the teachers I heard was dispie/pretrib. And I still love and appreciate those pastors, though I don't agree with them on everything.



Understood. But we agree on the physical disposition of the Church. That we were never promised "escape" from death or persecution. :)

Those who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord will escape death. :)

Indueseason
Nov 13th 2008, 10:35 PM
What brought me to ask this question was a conversation I had with an older friend of mine. Her parents, and their parents before that were covenant/amill believers. Her uncle was even a pastor. When Israel became an nation, everything they believed was overturned(or so they thought) and 90% of her family changed to a dispensational view and left the churches they attended for so long, even pastored! Since then the family has been raised with this new point of view.

Now Israel to them was prophecy fulfilled and they felt compelled to change their understanding of scripture. So I'm trying to work out what future event could cause other covenant/amills to change like that.:hmm:

:hug: Blessings

;) Just keeping the thread subject on each page if I can :wave:

:hug: blessings

IBWatching
Nov 13th 2008, 10:36 PM
Neither. I was not raised Christian, but when I became a Christian I was exposed to a lot of pretrib teaching. The church my husband and I attended didn't even hold to any particular eschatological view, but I listened to a lot of Christian radio and the predominant view of the teachers I heard was dispie/pretrib. And I still love and appreciate those pastors, though I don't agree with them on everything...

Could have been worse. You could have been "converted" to pre-trib by a series of fictional books about the tribulation period. ;)

Not much "staying" power there. :lol:

mizzdy
Nov 13th 2008, 11:14 PM
What do you mean by protected? I do believe the church as a whole is protected, but not that all Christians will be spared from suffering the persecution of Antichrist. When the mark of the Beast is initiated, there will believers who will die for refusing it (Rev 14:13). I think Jesus wants us to pray for escape, not to assume it (Luke 21:34-36).

Reading through Zephaniah I saw this 2:3 NKJV 'Seek the Lord, all meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the Lord's anger.'

Not saying this verse tells us that God will save us from the trib to come but it is interesting. I myself do not adhere to the rapture theory. Also my study notes say that even in the midst of the judgement the mercy and grace of the Lord are still available to a repentant people. There also is a verse can't remember where it Isaiah maybe that says something about going and hiding in your rooms or something to that order. It might be possible that those who are marked by the Holy Spirit escapes the worst of the trib? I hear a lot about the taking aways on eagles wings to meaning somehow the church at the darkest hour will be whisked off into a place of safety but I :dunno: .

Tanya~
Nov 14th 2008, 12:44 AM
Reading through Zephaniah I saw this 2:3 NKJV 'Seek the Lord, all meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the Lord's anger.'

I love that Scripture, thank you for the reminder. :) How I see it is that when we meet the conditions, we can seek the escape, similar to the previously quoted verses from Luke 21 and Rev 3.


the mercy and grace of the Lord are still available to a repentant people. There also is a verse can't remember where it Isaiah maybe that says something about going and hiding in your rooms or something to that order.

That's another favorite:

Isa 26:20-21
Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.
NKJV

Amen on the availability of the Lord's mercy and grace. What really stands out to me in all these types of passages is the conditional aspect of the promise.


It might be possible that those who are marked by the Holy Spirit escapes the worst of the trib?

This is the pretrib view. I think the Scriptural view is that those wh

I hear a lot about the taking aways on eagles wings to meaning somehow the church at the darkest hour will be whisked off into a place of safety but I :dunno: .

It's clear that there will be many believers who are martyred during the GT, Rev 14:13. But even those of us who are martyred will be blessed. Actually the martyrs will receive a special blessing so whether we live or die for the Lord, we belong to Him. :)

Sorry Indue! :OFFT:

Partaker of Christ
Nov 14th 2008, 01:32 AM
I don't believe in a 7-year anything; because the NT doesn't mention it (Revelation mentions 5 different sets of 3.5 year periods, and a 5 month period...nothing 7 years therein); and the Daniel passage that is often applied by Pretribbers as a future 7 year period; I believe is incorrectly misapplied. I believe Daniel's 70 week prophecy was about Christ's first coming; and all of the context of that vision was concluded 2000 years ago.

Nonetheless, even without a future 7year trib expectation; I do believe that as the Gospels and Paul taught, things will get worse and worse prior to Christ's return; and there will be a great falling away from the faith.

You don't have to believe in a 7-yr period to believe that things will get really bad, an anti-christ type leader may arise, Christians will be severely persecuted unlike any time on Earth, two literal witnesses may arise, great plagues and disasters will smite the Earth, a final worldwide battle will focus on Megiddo, Christ will return in power and respendant glory in the clouds to gather his faithful followers (living and dead) and change them incorruptible as well as gather and cast the wicked into the everlasting flames.

For me, the context of Daniel 9 is a prophecy that was given about a block of time that contained 70 weeks of years that concluded with Jesus being killed during the final 70th week of that prophecy; and Him making and end to the animal sacrifice and offering system.

Jesus Himself quoted from Daniel 9 several times and applied it to His accomplishments in the 1st century; and no NT endtime passages mention a 7 year period, or mention Daniel's 70th week...so I just don't apply it there...because I can't find a strong enough biblical arguement to do so.

Will be interesting to see how others reply.

Hi David!

The 70 weeks has to include and conclude all that was in the vision "upon thy people and upon thy holy city"

Dan 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Dan 9:21 Yea, while I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to show thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

DurbanDude
Nov 16th 2008, 05:46 AM
What if, that's always bad when that starts a thought, what if Jesus' death was half way through the last week of Daniel's prophecy and we are waiting for the AC to appear and finish off the last part.

Is that a possible outcome?


mflower, that is exactly what I believe and you can see posts going back for well over a year where I have been putting forward this very point.

I am glad to see that someone else has cottoned onto it. If this view is true , it would suggest that most if not all the mentions of a future 3.5 year period overlap eachother, whereas at the moment when anyone reads of a 3.5 year period mentioed in Daniel or Revelation they try to fit the verse into either the first half or second half of the tribulation. I for one am only expecting a 3.5 year tribulation.

third hero
Nov 17th 2008, 09:23 AM
OK, I'm back.

Now, I was attempting to prove that the Abomination that Causes Desolation is what will change the POV of both the Amil and dispensationalist.

Now, I will continue.

I was trying to answer this question:

Thank you for that run down. I guess your right, those who believe in a spiritual mark will have problems if a literal mark comes on the scene,but not much else should change their view. I'm not sure about the abomination though, what if you dont believe in that point of view? :confused
There are things in which both the dispensational POV and the Amillennial POV hang their hats on. For instance, to the Amil, 70AD is when the abomination happenened. The problem that I have with that view is that the furthest that the Romans came to the Holy of Holies was the Altar, which is not the most holy place in that temple. MOreover, the man of sin was not revealed, nor was there any proclamations of Godhood by Titus, or anyone else who razed the Temple.

According to what I believe, which I hang my hat on Matthew 24:14-31, the return of the Lord can not happen until the Abomination of Desolation happens. IF a time comes when another temple is built, then the thing that the Amils hang their hat on will be destroyed.

At the same time, the dispensationalists believe that the church will be raptured before the Great Tribulation happens. If the church is here when the Abomination that Causes desolation happens, then their POV is destroyed as well. Kind of hard to say that God will rapture us before the Great Tribulation when the first day happens.

Even as I say this, I believe that there are events that will happen even before the Great Tribulation happens that wil causes many to rethink their positions. Here is where the Temple comes into play.

IN order for the Abomination that causes desolation to happen, there must be a place on earth erected that is called Holy. Jesus said that the abomination that causes desolation stands in the Holy place. Paul states that the man of sin proclaims his Godhood in the Most Holy place. That place can only be found in the building that was called the footstool of God. That is the temple. IN the OT temple, there was a place that was built, a place that no one could enter unless that person was a high priest, and he has to be wearing an ephod. Even Now, the resurrected Sanhedrin, the abominable council that rejected Lord Jesus and sentenced Him to death, are conviening with the Israeli authorities and the Muslim authorities to gain permission to build another Temple. Especially with the discovery of the place of the Most Holy Place not being under the Dome of the Rock, The sanhedrin is gaining ground with both factions. When an agreement is made, (the covenant with many), the Sanhedrin will build the temple, and it is very possible that the Temple will share space with the Dome of the Rock. (Rev 11:2). If the temple is rebuilt, then the most Holy Place will be rebuilt, and the entire stage wil be set for the revealing of the man of sin.

And so, I believe that even before the Great Tribulation and the Mark, before the two prophets and their testimony, the one thing that will cause all POV's to change their collective minds is the rebuilding of the temple.

David Taylor
Nov 17th 2008, 06:43 PM
Hi David!

The 70 weeks has to include and conclude all that was in the vision "upon thy people and upon thy holy city"

Dan 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.



Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The 70 years and the 70 weeks were two different eras and two different prophecies.

The 70 years was the Assyrian/Babylonian captivity; which was going on during the time Daniel wrote his book.

"And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation"

"For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. "





The 70 weeks (490 years); were following the Assyrian/Babylonian captivity leading up to when Messiah would come, and accomplish all the things written about Him in 9:24-27.

Daniel's people Israel, were the focus of that prophecy through Christ's coming and fulfilling of those verses. Not until afterwards, did the light shining unto the Gentiles begin to occur en-masse.

Jesus' death and resurrection brought to 'Daniel's people and the holy city' the filfillment of:

to finish the transgression "For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant" Heb 9:15

to make an end of sins
"he hath appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. " Heb 9:26

to make reconciliation for iniquity
"we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son" Romans 5:10

to bring in everlasting righteousness
""by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) " Romans 5:17

to seal up the vision and prophecy
"Then Jesus said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. " Luke 24:25

to anoint the most Holy
Jesus said, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." Luke 4:19

third hero
Nov 17th 2008, 10:33 PM
You know David, it seems that we are so close in completely matching our beliefs together that it is uncanny. Take this last post of yours. You, like me, acknowledge the fact that the Seventy weeks are meant for Daniel and his Holy City Jerusalem. But the only difference is that you believe that all of the seventy weeks have come to pass, whereas I do not believe that the seventieth week has. Now I know that if we progress this point any further, than we will end up derailing the thread. And so, in order to keep to the topic, I just wanted to say to you as you haveto me, we are so close, and yet only a few words separate us from being in unity when it comes to the end times.

M1NISTER
Dec 2nd 2008, 07:22 PM
I know that I have come to this post late but I think there were several points that were missed, blended and confused. I know most people don't beleive it but you can make then entire case for a Pre Tribulation rapture (evacuation of followers of Christ) and a 7 year tribulation. Read on and you will be convinced if you're a follower of Christ seeking clarity.




Statement of the Problem

As the panorama of God's Word sweeps to it's final conclusion we come to the last book of the Bible, Revelation, a stunning and powerful affirmation of the sovereignty of our mighty and glorious God as he unleashes his judgment and wrath upon a sinful world. The problem that confronts us is whether His beloved church will experience His wrath or whether God in His mercy will somehow supernaturally spare the church from the tribulation period. One of the major problems is the question of the rapture in relation to the book of Revelation. Can a pre-tribulation rapture position be defended entirely from the Book of Revelation?




Statement of the Purpose

It is the purpose of this paper to evaluate briefly those matters that pertain to this problem through textual analysis. There are those who state that if there is a pre-tribulation rapture of the church it ought to be stated clearly in the Book of Revelation. Although there is much support from the whole of scripture to prove the return of Christ for His church is prior to the tribulation period, it is the attempt of this paper to present scriptural evidence and argument solely from the Book of Revelation to prove that the rapture does indeed occur prior to the tribulation period, a time of woe and distress in which God will execute His justice throughout the world.




TEXTUAL ANALYSIS

As stated earlier, there is much support throughout the Bible for a pre-tribulation rapture. There are several solid biblical arguments as found in the Book of Revelation which support the rapture of the church prior to the tribulation period.


Freedom from Divine Wrath

This promise is contained in Revelation 3:10. No verse can completely establish the relationship of the rapture to the tribulation, but this one comes close. Without doubt this is the most debated verse in the rapture argument. There can be no disagreement that the verse promises protection and freedom to the church. Both post-tribulationists and pre-tribulationists agree that this passage is related to the rapture. The question that divides the two sides is the nature of the protection. Post-tribulationist have argued that the word from which is the translation of the Greek preposition ek, means "out of the midst" instead of simply "from". Pentecost (1958: 216) states that when the verb is used with en it means "by guarding to cause one to escape in safely out of." Since the preposition ek is used here it would indicate that the apostle John is promising removal from the sphere of testing, not a preservation through it.
This is further substantiated by the use of the words, "the hour." The Lord will not only guard His church from the testings that are to come upon the earth but will keep them from the very hour itself, when His wrath will be poured out. It is clear that the verse clearly promises that they will be exempt from His wrath at a specific time. Jesus is talking about a well known period of distress and trouble. This was the tribulation period. The promise is preservation outside of a literal time period. It is this combination of terms that has led pre-tribulationists to argue that the church cannot be in this period. Ryrie (1953: 101) makes this point, "It is impossible to conceive of being in the same location where something is happening and being exempt from the time of the happening."
Also the fact that the church is removed from this period is further supported by the two qualifying phrases, "which is about to come upon the whole earth" and "to test those that dwell upon the earth." The hour of this immense trial is definitely universal and not some isolated event (cf. Rev. 2:10). Thus if the wrath of God is falling everywhere, it is extremely difficult to see how preservation could be any other means than through God's supernatural intervention and removal of His church, which we know as the rapture.



The Absence of the Church

While individual passages may be debated and their relative worth and merit weighed in determining a pre-tribulational or post-tribulational position. The conclusions we draw from them may not always be clear. However there is one conclusion we can draw from scriptural passages from the Book of Revelation. The main problem with the Book of Revelation is that there is no mention of the rapture of the church from Revelation chapter 4 through chapter 18. One would think that a book presenting such impressive detail concerning the events leading up to the second coming of Christ would tell of such a glorious happening for His beloved church. When all is said and done and they have placed their evidence and argument on the scale of reasoning, there is really no way to explain the total absence of any mention of either the universal church or for that matter any local church in a detailed account such as this pertaining to the end times. One can not believe that the Holy Spirit who so omnisciently superintended the writing of his scripture would deliberately or perish the thought, accidentally omit any reference to the church and its glorious rapture.

Some have argued that the absence of any mention of the church in Revelation 4 through 18 is offset by the fact that it does not mention the church as actually being in heaven. This of course hangs on the question as to whether the twenty-four elders represent the church. The argument for this will be discussed later. For now though would it not seem logical that if the church is to be mentioned as actually being in the tribulation, reference to it would be found in these chapters. It is not!


The Church in Heaven

There is some indication that the church is indeed already in heaven. The Book of Revelation makes reference to elders and to those that dwell in heaven and also to the bride that is clothed in white linen. These references seem to imply that the church is already in heaven. How can the church be in heaven before the return of the Lord? By implication we conclude that He has raptured the church before the tribulation.

One of the passages debated in the argument is the significance of the twenty-four elders in Revelation 4:4 and 5:8-10. There are several proofs that the twenty-four elders represent the church age saints.

The crown (gk: stephanos) is for a victor only. This refers to the "overcomer", cf.2:3. Angels are not crowned nor is Israel.
Angels are not judges until the end of the tribulation period. This verse implies that they have already been judged.
They are given white robes - cf. Rev. 3:5, 19:8. Not likely angels but church age saints judges and clothed in His righteousness
The term elder is not usually associated with angels
Relevant and critical evidence is found in the song of the twenty-four elders in 5:9-10. The debated terms are "us" and "we shall reign". Some manuscripts have "them" and "they shall reign." This definitely pertains to the church and the blood washed saints.
Angels are not seated on thrones which speak of dignity and ascertained authority from Christ.


Pentecost (1958:209) remarks that the above arguments prove, "Since they are seen to be resurrected, in heaven, judged, rewarded, enthroned at the beginning of the 70th week, it is concluded that the church must have been raptured before the 70th week occurs." Another proof that the church is in heaven is found in the following texts, Revelation 13:6; 19:7-8, 14. Both these passages give us a picture of heaven before the Lord returns to earth. In both passages reference is made to those who "dwell in heaven" and to the fact that they are "clothed in white linen." This speaks of the righteousness of the saints and to the fact that they are already in heaven prior to the Lord's return as spoken in Revelation 19:11.


The Witness of Jehovah


If the church was never raptured prior to the tribulation period as many would argue, then any individual who is saved is saved to a position into the body of Christ as indicated in various scripture passages, Colossians 1:26-29; 3:11; Ephesians 2:14-22. During the tribulation period the church as to be absent because out of the saved remnant of Israel God commissions and seals 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe according to Revelation 7:14. The fact that God is again dealing with Israel and sending them out as emissaries of His saving grace to the nations as opposed to the blood bought children of the church indicates that God is no longer dealing with the church. Therefore we can conclude that the church must no longer be on the earth and has been raptured and taken home to heaven.

(original report written by James Lush, Feb '91.)