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Tirisilex
Nov 13th 2008, 08:36 PM
I cant help but think of this.. Here we have a large and long lived world.. about 5000 years of recorded History.. West and East.. Lands that are discovered in later years.. And there are Villages.. Communities.. and such that never have even herd of Jesus.. What of all these people?? are they doomed because of their time and birth place on this planet? They are facing eternal Hell because the dice they rolled didnt match the set of winning numbers? This just hurts my brain.. :(

Butch5
Nov 13th 2008, 08:49 PM
I cant help but think of this.. Here we have a large and long lived world.. about 5000 years of recorded History.. West and East.. Lands that are discovered in later years.. And there are Villages.. Communities.. and such that never have even herd of Jesus.. What of all these people?? are they doomed because of their time and birth place on this planet? They are facing eternal Hell because the dice they rolled didnt match the set of winning numbers? This just hurts my brain.. :(


Hi,

They are not doomed because of a roll of the dice. Paul says that which may be known of God is revealed. They have the natural creation to see. Also peter says that when Christ died He preached to the spirits in prison which were some time disobedient in the days of Noah. The early church believed that Christ preached to the dead, who had died before He came. Whether this was the righteous only or all we are not sure. However Clement of Alexandria puts forth a good are argument for all, when He says basically, If God has given us grace why would he not also give it to them? So, we know from Scripture that Christ did preach to those who died prior to His coming, it is possible that those who will never hear may have the gospel preached to them after they die. However this is conjecture and I have no Scripture to support it. It is only a thought that if God did not for them, then He might do it for those who never hear. However, as I said before, Paul said that which may be known of God has been revealed.

Lamplighter
Nov 13th 2008, 09:30 PM
Romans 1:18-20 says mankind is without excuse due to God's creation. There is a church on every street corner, and 1000's of different kinds of study Bibles in the USA, and yet millions of people in the USA still refuse to follow Christ. A lack of Bibles and Churches is not the problem, it's mankind's wickedness and lack of faith in Christ that's the problem.

The USA teaches Godless evolution theories in schools and colleges, it makes laws to legalize abortion, and homosexual marriage, lets perverts lose from prison to rape and molest, and yet, there are enough printed Bibles in the USA for every citizen to have hundreds of Bibles in their homes.

NO MAN IS WITHOUT EXCUSE TO FOLLOW THE LIVING GOD!

Ichiban
Nov 13th 2008, 09:46 PM
That is a very callous way of describing the U.S.A. and people who have never heard of God. In the scripture you quoted, if says that all man has been instilled with the belief of God. I would agree, however, unless someone has a Bible in their hand and translated into their language, how can they possibly know it is OUR God that has done it? There are over 5,000 nations the Bible has yet to be translated for.

This is actually changing. By the year 2025, a Bible should be available to everyone. In my humble and uneducataed opinion, I don't believe Christ will come before then.

As for the "Godless" theories we're taught in the United States: yes, we live in a "liberal" society. But is it the role of governments to tell people that gay marriage isn't acceptable, or the Church's? How about abortion? Especially when about 80% of girls under 25 who get an abortion have a religious background.

I'm sorry to burst your self-righteous bubble, but child pornography is legal in Japan. In some nations, rape isn't a crime and in other nations, slavery is still legal. The world is full of Satan's garbage and unbelievers. Jesus instructs us to go sift through the garbage and love all of the people despite their crimes.

Walstib
Nov 13th 2008, 09:49 PM
HI,

This is my take on where they are covered. A judgement by works for those kind of people you have concern for. They still have the chance as Jesus does the judging and entrance into the kingdom would still be through Him.


And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, [109] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
(Rev 20:12-13 NKJV)

Joe

Silent Wings
Nov 13th 2008, 09:49 PM
And there are Villages.. Communities.. and such that never have even herd of Jesus.. What of all these people?? are they doomed because of their time and birth place on this planet? They are facing eternal Hell because the dice they rolled didnt match the set of winning numbers? This just hurts my brain.. :(

Should we presume then that those who have never heard the message of the gospel somehow deserve salvation simply because they havenít heard it?

Ichiban
Nov 13th 2008, 09:51 PM
Should we presume then that those who have never heard the message of the gospel somehow deserve salvation simply because they havenít heard it?

Should we presume that God has completely ignored entire peoples?

Silent Wings
Nov 13th 2008, 09:59 PM
Should we presume that God has completely ignored entire peoples?



God knows all men and all peoplesÖso which men and which peoples deserve salvation simply because they have not heard the gospel?

Walstib
Nov 13th 2008, 10:34 PM
You have the audacity to think that we, as believers in Christ, deserve anything more then the people who haven't heard the gospel? That we are somehow more qualified to meet God in heaven because believing in Christ makes us deserving?

Ummm... Were you being sarcastic?

I think that the elect (God's set apart people) ((those who have come to believe the truth while still alive in their bodies)) are more qualified. They already have the Holy Spirit in them. This to me would qualify as special.

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (Col 1:13 KJV)

The saved are already there in a way.. no?

The second part of your comment I would agree with.... mostly.

Love ya,

Joe

mikebr
Nov 14th 2008, 12:44 AM
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Ichiban
Nov 14th 2008, 12:48 AM
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Why does KJV seem like deciphering a whole new language, for me? :(

locboxx
Nov 14th 2008, 02:14 AM
I cant help but think of this.. Here we have a large and long lived world.. about 5000 years of recorded History.. West and East.. Lands that are discovered in later years.. And there are Villages.. Communities.. and such that never have even herd of Jesus.. What of all these people?? are they doomed because of their time and birth place on this planet? They are facing eternal Hell because the dice they rolled didnt match the set of winning numbers? This just hurts my brain.. :(


Dont worry, our God is a Just God. I bet you that if people couldnt reach that area then God would send angels to minister to the tribes and communities that have not heard the Gospel. Or maybe when they die they will get ministered to by Jesus, we dont know exactly. God is good and He will definately take care of it in a better way than we can even imagine.

Teke
Nov 14th 2008, 02:24 AM
I cant help but think of this.. Here we have a large and long lived world.. about 5000 years of recorded History.. West and East.. Lands that are discovered in later years.. And there are Villages.. Communities.. and such that never have even herd of Jesus.. What of all these people?? are they doomed because of their time and birth place on this planet? They are facing eternal Hell because the dice they rolled didnt match the set of winning numbers? This just hurts my brain.. :(

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

It's not a geographic matter. It is a matter of when and who God decides to reveal Himself to. I live in the US and never knew God or His Son until the day He was revealed to me, I never heard it from a person.

Walstib
Nov 14th 2008, 02:47 AM
I understand that unbelievers will not enter Heaven and that not knowing simply is not an excuse. Interesting question for you. Will anyone after the end of days when they stand before Jesus in all His glory be able to not believe?


I agree and acknowledge. It is the idea that we are somehow more deserving of Heaven because we asked Jesus to save us. We did nothing to deserve God's Home.
I was thinking the other day how there is no term "more guilty". You either are guilty or not... like being pregnant. And all are guilty so I agree no one deserves salvation. Though I do think we do the thinking for ourselves when it comes to believing and so "do something" towards salvation. That may be a topic for another thread though...

Peace,

Joe

Lamplighter
Nov 14th 2008, 03:44 AM
Romans 10:13-18.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


It looks like Paul is saying the gospel has already spread to the ends of the world?

Biastai
Nov 14th 2008, 05:21 AM
Romans 10:13-18.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


It looks like Paul is saying the gospel has already spread to the ends of the world?

The context of this passage seems to be the Israelites' rejection of the gospel due to their effort to be righteous through the Law. Those who have not heard seem to be Israelites.

However, I'm guessing you're basing your opinion that all had heard the gospel on Paul's quotation of Psalm 19:4 in verse 18. The context of that passage is creation being plain evidence of the Lord. I think this verse says the Lord should therefore be known to all (much like Romans 1:18-21) but not necessarily the good news about Christ.

"The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.
There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."
Psalm 19:1-4, NIV

Ichiban
Nov 14th 2008, 06:28 AM
Interesting question for you. Will anyone after the end of days when they stand before Jesus in all His glory be able to not believe?

Matthew 24:14 (NLT)
But the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that the nations will hear it; and then, finally, the end will come.

That answers for before Jesus' coming...

Revelation 1:7 (NLT)
Look! He comes with the clouds of heaven. And everyone will see him...even those who pierced him. And all the nations of the earth will weep because of him. Yes! Amen!

And that answers for afterwards.


I was thinking the other day how there is no term "more guilty". You either are guilty or not... like being pregnant. And all are guilty so I agree no one deserves salvation. Though I do think we do the thinking for ourselves when it comes to believing and so "do something" towards salvation. That may be a topic for another thread though...

Peace,

Joe


It might be for a different topic but it still is a question many have when accepting salvation. It certainly was for me at 15. God gave us all a free will. So yes, in that sense we control our future in Heaven or not. To acknowledge that it is my choice is to be a follower of Christ is one thing. To say that I deserve salvation because I follow Christ is another.

With love,
Garrett

Silent Wings
Nov 14th 2008, 09:55 AM
Of course not!

This was a point I used to debate with my Sunday School teacher when I was younger. She used to tell me that the heathen in the Amazon jungle had no opportunity and deserved to be saved just as much as anyone else.

I agree that the heathen deserved to be saved as much as anyone else. However, no one else deserves to be saved either. Grace is unmerited favor. If every Christian got what he/she deserved, there would be no one saved.

As for the heathen....

If he is saved through ignorance, then we need to stop spreading the Gospel to the ends of the earth. Once the heathen hears the Gospel, then he has a choice to make. He had no condemnation before and by spreading the Word of God, we now create the chance of condemnation to the heathen.

No, either the heathen is condemned or missionaries must be stopped immediately before they send more heathen to hell.

It's a question struggled with by greater theologians than I, but if it doesn't seem fair that the heathen who had seemingly no chance to believe in Christ is condemned to hell, then you need to look at what fairness really is. It isn't fair that God chose to give grace to some, but it would be fair if all were condemned. Never ask God for fairness, you don't want God to be fair.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Thank you for so graciously answering the question with some very excellent points.

Blessings

Walstib
Nov 14th 2008, 01:34 PM
However, I'm guessing you're basing your opinion that all had heard the gospel on Paul's quotation of Psalm 19:4 in verse 18. The context of that passage is creation being plain evidence of the Lord. I think this verse says the Lord should therefore be known to all (much like Romans..10:18-21) but not necessarily the good news about Christ.
As I do agree on context there are other verses that back the statement/question that Lamplighter posed. And give room for more context in the same verse...

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; (Col 1:23 KJV)

compare to

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mar 16:15 KJV)

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. (Mat 24:14 NKJV)

And relating it back to the orrigional verses from Romans and Psalms..

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1Co 10:11 KJV)

It looks to me like the gospel has a long time ago reached every creature let alone ever nation. What "the end" that would come is...?

Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Heb 9:26 NIV)

I don't rightly know the full answer but I think "the end" has been going on for quite a while now.

Peace,

Joe

Biastai
Nov 15th 2008, 04:05 AM
As I do agree on context there are other verses that back the statement/question that Lamplighter posed. And give room for more context in the same verse...

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; (Col 1:23 KJV)

compare to

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mar 16:15 KJV)

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. (Mat 24:14 NKJV)

And relating it back to the orrigional verses from Romans and Psalms..

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1Co 10:11 KJV)

It looks to me like the gospel has a long time ago reached every creature let alone ever nation. What "the end" that would come is...?

Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Heb 9:26 NIV)

I don't rightly know the full answer but I think "the end" has been going on for quite a while now.

Peace,

Joe

I think I remember someone here posting a map showing regions of the world not yet exposed to the gospel. I thought that was interesting.

Even so, at the time of the writing of Romans, it would be preposterous to say that the whole world heard the good news. Paul talked repeatedly about his future plans, and he preferred establishing new churches over building on foundations laid down by others. He mentioned plans to go to Spain which never became realized. He would never say all peoples of the world had received the gospel.

Congratulations by the way on your son! I'm expecting my daughter in March, and I'm so giddy, its ridiculous.

Walstib
Nov 15th 2008, 05:00 AM
Even so, at the time of the writing of Romans, it would be preposterous to say that the whole world heard the good news. Paul talked repeatedly about his future plans, and he preferred establishing new churches over building on foundations laid down by others. He mentioned plans to go to Spain which never became realized. He would never say all peoples of the world had received the gospel.

What do you figure Paul is saying in Colossians 1?

I love how God can span the preposterous. A person once asked me how fast an angel can travel. Faster than the speed of light? Unbound by time itself? (rhetorical questions). Can an angel preach? If the creation itself can show the invisible attributes of God can it "preach" the gosple of the kingdom? Or can the Holy Spirit preach it though the connscience of those far off.

I don't think Pauls understanding had to be spread or even the words Jesus spoke while "in time" as a man. I think it is very arguable that The Gosple (nutshell-- *saved by grace through faith*) is eternal and to see it in time limits context.

Well just some of my thoughts and ponderings, the first question I am interested in a response.



Congratulations by the way on your son! I'm expecting my daughter in March, and I'm so giddy, its ridiculous.

Thanks! I am learning so much through her. ;) May God bless and protect your daughter on her journey.

Joe

Biastai
Nov 15th 2008, 06:31 AM
You mean here, I suppose.

"All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth."
Colossians 1:6

Of here?

"..if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."
Colossians 1:23

It supports your argument very well. I still think its Paul's optimism towards the end to which he refers to here...

"We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me."
Colossians 1:28,29

Sorry, congratulations on your daughter!

Sheesh, what's wrong with me?

Walstib
Nov 15th 2008, 01:46 PM
I still think its Paul's optimism towards the end to which he refers to here... ... Colossians 1:28,29Are you commenting that "the end" (instead of this end) is preaching to every man in existence from then until Jesus returns, or revealing "the riches" of the eternal mystery now made known? Something else?

I figure the context is the second. To me the last part of the chapter is like saying "I labor towards explaining the intimate depths of the Gospel and how the gentiles are included, that all races/nations/peoples should to have explained to them God will dwell inside them by grace through faith."

Not that the Gospel has not reached them but that trustable revelations of the apostles (the NT scriptures) about the mystery (pre-existing and present--- to the point every grain of sand contains it) should be passed on earnestly to explain what exists in thier conscience.

Peace,

Joe

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 15th 2008, 03:41 PM
I cant help but think of this.. Here we have a large and long lived world.. about 5000 years of recorded History.. West and East.. Lands that are discovered in later years.. And there are Villages.. Communities.. and such that never have even herd of Jesus.. What of all these people?? are they doomed because of their time and birth place on this planet? They are facing eternal Hell because the dice they rolled didnt match the set of winning numbers? This just hurts my brain.. :(

Well there's no excuse line in the bible...found in Romans 1:18-20. God's invisible qualities have been made known to men throughout creation, so many will have no excuse to not believe in God.

Also there's Romans 2:13-18 which basically states that the law is now within the heart of every believer due to Christ's salvific sacrafice. So I believe that God will judge righteously in the end.

Biastai
Nov 16th 2008, 12:26 AM
Are you commenting that "the end" (instead of this end) is preaching to every man in existence from then until Jesus returns, or revealing "the riches" of the eternal mystery now made known? Something else?



Originally, when I first participated in this post, I was contesting someone who seemed to infer from scripture that every single creature had heard the gospel. I don't believe that view. I believe Paul had it as a hyperbolic goal for himself. His plans for Spain shows his boundless vision. Although, reading the verse again, there does seem to be a post-resurrection reference in "present everyone perfect in Christ" with parallels to 1 Corinthians 15.

I agree with you in that Gentile inclusion cannot be stressed enough here and throughout Paul's epistles. This was the big controversy at the time of these writings. Where I disagree with you here is I think it was Paul's own unique revelation from God and not of the other apostles. Paul repeatedly said that he received his gospel not of men but of God.

"I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ."
Galatians 1:11,12 (NIV)

In the account of the dispute about fellowship meals with Gentiles related in Galatians 2, Peter was not ready to make a complete break with Judaism. The Jewish food and cleanliness laws took precedence at this critical juncture. Paul confronted him and was almost alone on his stance on Gentile inclusion. Even Barnabas was driven from Paul on this issue which most likely led to his replacement by Silas/Silvanus on later missions. In fact, Paul received his assistance on his missions thereafter almost exclusively from Gentiles and seen here...

"My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.) Jesus, who is called Justus, also sends greetings. These are the only Jews among my fellow workers for the kingdom of God, and they have proved a comfort to me."
Colossians 4:10,11

Paul lead the few who pushed for Gentile inclusion, and this became his big rally cry in his ministry. Whenever he did refer to the whole world or all nations receiving the gospel, he was talking of Gentile inclusion and not literally every person on earth (we seem to agree on this point).

Lamplighter
Nov 17th 2008, 12:38 AM
Even so, at the time of the writing of Romans, it would be preposterous to say that the whole world heard the good news. Paul talked repeatedly about his future plans, and he preferred establishing new churches over building on foundations laid down by others. He mentioned plans to go to Spain which never became realized. He would never say all peoples of the world had received the gospel.


Except that what Paul considered the whole world is not what you or I would. The whole world to Paul was not a global civilization as we know it in the 21st century. There was no globe or satellite photos of the earth for Paul to see all of the continents and countries on earth. The only world Paul knew about was the one he was aware of. So as far as Paul was concerned, the whole world was evangelized. When Paul wrote Romans, he wasn't writing about future prophecy.

Biastai
Nov 17th 2008, 01:00 AM
Except that what Paul considered the whole world is not what you or I would. The whole world to Paul was not a global civilization as we know it in the 21st century. There was no globe or satellite photos of the earth for Paul to see all of the continents and countries on earth. The only world Paul knew about was the one he was aware of. So as far as Paul was concerned, the whole world was evangelized. When Paul wrote Romans, he wasn't writing about future prophecy.

I agree with what you said here about Paul's perception of the world (Jews and Gentiles as opposed to only Jews). Its clear I understood that just as you did judging from my post just above yours. What I said was in response to your post (#15); I thought you inferred the whole world heard the good news, not his whole world.

Our only point of disagreement is that you believe Paul considered his world completely evangelized. I think he believed the gospel was proclaimed by God to his (Paul's) whole world (Colossians 1:23), but he didn't consider his work done.

Walstib
Nov 17th 2008, 01:44 AM
Paul lead the few who pushed for Gentile inclusion, and this became his big rally cry in his ministry. Whenever he did refer to the whole world or all nations receiving the gospel, he was talking of Gentile inclusion and not literally every person on earth (we seem to agree on this point).Mostly ;) I see every creature under heaven is a bit different than every nation. I mean, in an even smaller nutshell than I used before I think you could say the gospel is “JESUS!”. So with the verses Col 1:15-17 and others "in him all things consist" sooo the gospel is present everywhere, in every atom.

I first got involved because I see some infer that there will be a specific moment in time that the last nation or last person is preached to and then BOOM! The end of the world. Nice neat little box. If no man can know the time or hour it seems like that version (or even one a little less dramatic hehe) is out of context.

Peace,

Joe

Edit: I most certainly agree it is really good to keep telling everyone we can the details of the good news and this "work" is not done.