PDA

View Full Version : individuality question



Walstib
Nov 13th 2008, 09:20 PM
I was at a bible study the other night and the pastor leading it said that Eve's sprit was taken out of Adam's Spirit. (For context he is a "word of faith" guy.) This was new to me and got me thinking if anyone here holds this view... why?

How could Eve then (assuming his point) have been an individual instead of just being part of Adam? Were their children individuals or only part of their spirit? Would anyone truly be an individual spirit?

My first thoughts are that Eve had her own unique spirit given to her when she was formed by God, as we do when formed in the womb. But I am not finding yet what are to me clear scriptures showing us having wholly individual spirits.

pondering...???

Joe

ƒσяєяυииєя
Nov 13th 2008, 09:51 PM
Hi JӨΣ,

I was wondering, if by saying spirt you mean:

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7.

Body + the breath of life/Spirit = a living soul?

ƒαяєуєωєℓℓ

Walstib
Nov 13th 2008, 10:04 PM
Hey ƒσяєяυииєя

Yes would be the short answer.

Our spirit being the eternal part of ourselves which has the ability to commune with God being part of the long answer.

Joe

locboxx
Nov 14th 2008, 02:21 AM
Hmm this is an interesting mystery. maybe God passed on the human spirit to Eve yet they have individual personalities or souls? Im not sure we have all the answers to all the questions but i know that God has made us all special.

livingwaters
Nov 14th 2008, 02:23 AM
Praise the Lord!!!!!! Thank you Father for loving us first...Alleluia:)

Walstib
Nov 14th 2008, 02:57 AM
livingwaters,

Could you please share the context of how your praise and thanks fits into my question .

Joe

holpcs2
Nov 14th 2008, 03:00 AM
To be honest, I don't know of any scripture that supports his statement. In my opinion, his made a false statement.

Lamplighter
Nov 14th 2008, 03:58 AM
(For context he is a "word of faith" guy.)

Joe

This is why.

Word Of Faith theology is very messed up and unbiblical. I suggest you not study the Bible with Word Of Faith folk, unless you are very sound in scripture yourself.

newvalor
Nov 14th 2008, 04:54 AM
Gen1:27

God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Gen2:22-25

The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man."


For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.





These are a few verses I pulled up on the this subject. It looks like in Gen 1:27 God created both man and woman in his own image.... this seems to point more to a separate person hood for man and woman. In Gen 2 talks about the the female's body was formed from the body that was formed from the man's rib. And it talks about becoming "one flesh". However I do not see any reference to the woman's spirit being pulled from the man's spirit.



Did your leader point to any verses that talks about Eve's spirit actually coming out of Adam's spirit?

Walstib
Nov 14th 2008, 05:58 AM
Word Of Faith theology is very messed up and unbiblical. I suggest you not study the Bible with Word Of Faith folk, unless you are very sound in scripture yourself.

I hear you, it was all I could do to keep my tongue in check listening as my "discernment alarm bells" were ringing and this was just one a number of things he said that set them off. Hard though to go to the friend that took me and say what could sound like "it felt wrong" and have nothing to back it up. Want to have lots of ammunition to show them why they themselves should stay away.

Thanks,

Joe

Literalist-Luke
Nov 14th 2008, 06:20 AM
Gen1:27

God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Gen2:22-25

The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man."


For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.


These are a few verses I pulled up on the this subject. It looks like in Gen 1:27 God created both man and woman in his own image.... this seems to point more to a separate person hood for man and woman. In Gen 2 talks about the the female's body was formed from the body that was formed from the man's rib. And it talks about becoming "one flesh". However I do not see any reference to the woman's spirit being pulled from the man's spirit.

Did your leader point to any verses that talks about Eve's spirit actually coming out of Adam's spirit?I agree, there is no Scriptural support for this theory.

Walstib
Nov 14th 2008, 06:20 AM
It looks like in Gen 1:27 God created both man and woman in his own image.... this seems to point more to a separate person hood for man and woman. In Gen 2 talks about the female's body was formed from the body that was formed from the man's rib. And it talks about becoming "one flesh". However I do not see any reference to the woman's spirit being pulled from the man's spirit.

Did your leader point to any verses that talks about Eve's spirit actually coming out of Adam's spirit?

Maybe the leader of the study but not my leader. He just made the statement after reading the same verses you brought up. Contradictory and confusing as he taught the Gen 1 verses as showed the spirit of men and woman were created before their bodies and then put into Adam's body in Gen 2. Something like that.

Good point though in the distinction of how he created them in Gen 1. I am thinking creation is the key as I am looking into this. thinking Psalm 139... Every baby a creation, leading to being called a new creation at rebirth in Jesus.

pondering...

Thanks

Joe

newvalor
Nov 14th 2008, 06:25 AM
Maybe the leader of the study but not my leader. He just made the statement after reading the same verses you brought up. Contradictory and confusing as he taught the Gen 1 verses as showed the spirit of men and woman were created before their bodies and then put into Adam's body in Gen 2. Something like that.

Good point though in the distinction of how he created them in Gen 1. I am thinking creation is the key as I am looking into this. thinking Psalm 139... Every baby a creation, leading to being called a new creation at rebirth in Jesus.

pondering...

Thanks

Joe


Hmmm... fascinating I've always understood Gen 2 as a more detailed description of how God created Man. Not Gen 1 happening before Gen 2.

Walstib
Nov 14th 2008, 06:27 AM
Me too......... ;)

newvalor
Nov 14th 2008, 06:36 AM
A thing to ponder....

Why would God create a helpmate for Adam, using Adam's own spirit? It is hard to have a true relationship with yourself. To form a true relationship, a second individual would be needed, correct?

Walstib
Nov 14th 2008, 03:18 PM
Why would God create a helpmate for Adam, using Adam's own spirit? It is hard to have a true relationship with yourself. To form a true relationship, a second individual would be needed, correct?Liking that logic. But this is also where I am getting stumped in a way...

All the searching I am doing for scripture to define individual spirit is coming up with , not sure how to put it, all spirit being part of God. I'm not saying it shows Eve's was part of Adam's but that this is bigger than I first thought.

Like...

But H403 there is a spirit H7307 in man H582, And the breath H5397 of the Almighty H7706 gives him understanding H995 (H8799). (Job 32:8 NKJV+)

I am finding Hebrew has two words relating H7307 and H5397. What seem to me now to be man's spirit and God's Spirit respectively. Both being of God in context as I read.

The Spirit H7307 of God H410 has made H6213 (H8804) me, And the breath H5397 of the Almighty H7706 gives me life H2421 (H8762). (Job 33:4 NKJV+)

In whose hand is the life of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind? (Job 12:10 NKJV)

Then... if a spirit can go to Hell, how can it be part of God as he could not forsake or lose a part of Himself as I see things. And I go full circle....

I did find these....

speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, (1Ti 4:2 NKJV)

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.(Rom 14:5 NKJV)

The Greek word idios G2398 used for "their" and "his own" the best word for individual I could find. So now where is the seat of the mind and conscience in man? If the conscience is wholly spiritual, as my first thoughts confirm, is this part of spirit or a function of spirit, the comunion with God rather than somthing of our own...??

Pondering....

Joe

Walstib
Nov 14th 2008, 03:25 PM
I am thinking this may be a good scripture to say one person's spirit does not come from another. Job replying to Bildad the Shuhite...

To whom have you uttered words? And whose spirit came from you? (Job 26:4 NKJV)

The breath of life always comes from God Himself and only God can speak to someone’s conscience.

Joe

Friend of I AM
Nov 14th 2008, 04:12 PM
I was at a bible study the other night and the pastor leading it said that Eve's sprit was taken out of Adam's Spirit. (For context he is a "word of faith" guy.) This was new to me and got me thinking if anyone here holds this view... why?

How could Eve then (assuming his point) have been an individual instead of just being part of Adam? Were their children individuals or only part of their spirit? Would anyone truly be an individual spirit?

My first thoughts are that Eve had her own unique spirit given to her when she was formed by God, as we do when formed in the womb. But I am not finding yet what are to me clear scriptures showing us having wholly individual spirits.

pondering...???

Joe

No way to really verify this. I'd say she probably was though...as she was meant to complete Adam much in the same way that the spirit of the church is meant to complete Christ. Christ is the first Adam, and the church is the Eve to Christ.

Walstib
Nov 14th 2008, 05:33 PM
No way to really verify this. I'd say she probably was though...as she was meant to complete Adam much in the same way that the spirit of the church is meant to complete Christ. Christ is the first Adam, and the church is the Eve to Christ.

You really think there is no way when all things are possible with God?

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. (Mat 7:7-8 NKJV)

To me I already know it is false as the Holy Spirit revealed it to me through the gift of the discernment of spirits. Then anyone could say I am deluded and really, this isn't real evidence for others. I will keep seeking in my Berian way, have faith the evidence will be revealed and see what happens. Edit: This with the openness I could be wrong, just need the evidence..

Could you explain what you mean by "the spirit of the church". This is a new one to me as well.

Thanks in love,

Joe

newvalor
Nov 14th 2008, 06:31 PM
Liking that logic. But this is also where I am getting stumped in a way...

All the searching I am doing for scripture to define individual spirit is coming up with , not sure how to put it, all spirit being part of God. I'm not saying it shows Eve's was part of Adam's but that this is bigger than I first thought.

Like...

But H403 there is a spirit H7307 in man H582, And the breath H5397 of the Almighty H7706 gives him understanding H995 (H8799). (Job 32:8 NKJV+)

I am finding Hebrew has two words relating H7307 and H5397. What seem to me now to be man's spirit and God's Spirit respectively. Both being of God in context as I read.

The Spirit H7307 of God H410 has made H6213 (H8804) me, And the breath H5397 of the Almighty H7706 gives me life H2421 (H8762). (Job 33:4 NKJV+)

In whose hand is the life of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind? (Job 12:10 NKJV)

Then... if a spirit can go to Hell, how can it be part of God as he could not forsake or lose a part of Himself as I see things. And I go full circle....

I did find these....

speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, (1Ti 4:2 NKJV)

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.(Rom 14:5 NKJV)

The Greek word idios G2398 used for "their" and "his own" the best word for individual I could find. So now where is the seat of the mind and conscience in man? If the conscience is wholly spiritual, as my first thoughts confirm, is this part of spirit or a function of spirit, the comunion with God rather than somthing of our own...??

Pondering....

Joe


Fascinating points you brought up... I'm interested to know what else you may find.

Friend of I AM
Nov 14th 2008, 06:41 PM
You really think there is no way when all things are possible with God?

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. (Mat 7:7-8 NKJV)

To me I already know it is false as the Holy Spirit revealed it to me through the gift of the discernment of spirits. Then anyone could say I am deluded and really, this isn't real evidence for others. I will keep seeking in my Berian way, have faith the evidence will be revealed and see what happens. Edit: This with the openness I could be wrong, just need the evidence..

Could you explain what you mean by "the spirit of the church". This is a new one to me as well.

Thanks in love,

Joe

You make some good points. I guess I should have said..no way to verify this outside of God telling us through some sort of spiritual revelation. We have to be careful though to not let our imaginations get the best of us though. Historically, and scriptually...it doesn't say whether or not she had Adam's Spirit put into herself. It just states that she was created from Adam's rib. She could have been created with his spirit too though...It is indeed interesting to discuss. I'd really be interested in knowing exactly what Adam and Eve looked like to be honest. I've heard stories about both being much larger than we are now..or being what most would refer to as giants today. That's a topic for a whole nother thread though.

Regarding Spirit of the church.

Think spirit of the bride as referenced in scriptures.

God bless Stephen

Walstib
Nov 14th 2008, 07:09 PM
I guess I should have said..no way to verify this outside of God telling us through some sort of spiritual revelation. I would say I believe the answer to be in the scriptures somewhere. The dangerous part is to not try and prove what you are convicted of but see if what you are convicted of is true. Or needs to grow into a deeper understanding of the whole. Spiritual revelation is great but I think teaching or "proving" should come from the scriptures.
We have to be careful though to not let our imaginations get the best of us though. Amen!
Think spirit of the bride as referenced in scriptures. Are you referencing rev 22:17 specifically or the themes of “the bride” and “the spirit” throughout scripture.

Joe

Friend of I AM
Nov 15th 2008, 07:17 PM
Are you referencing rev 22:17 specifically or the themes of “the bride” and “the spirit” throughout scripture.


I didn't know there was a distinction between the two....

Walstib
Nov 15th 2008, 08:52 PM
Hi Stephen,


I didn't know there was a distinction between the two....

Well for one the passage in Rev is "Spirit and the bride" in all the translations I have and not "Spirit of the bride". Two subjects as opposed to one. "Spirit of the church" sounds like one subject to me.

I hope you can see why I still have no idea what you are trying to say.

Peace,

Joe

Walstib
Nov 17th 2008, 07:12 PM
Why didn't anyone remind me the soul is the seat of self!!

Could have saved me a bunch of studying....:P

Friend of I AM
Nov 17th 2008, 07:26 PM
Hi Stephen,



Well for one the passage in Rev is "Spirit and the bride" in all the translations I have and not "Spirit of the bride". Two subjects as opposed to one. "Spirit of the church" sounds like one subject to me.

I hope you can see why I still have no idea what you are trying to say.

Peace,

Joe

Whoops my bad. I meant to say that the Church was the bride, and the spirit that it is composed of was taken from Christ, much in the same way you have made the suggestion that Eve's spirit was taken from Adam's.
Hope this makes sense. If not let me know.

In Christian Love,

Stephen

joztok
Nov 18th 2008, 03:10 PM
I hear you, it was all I could do to keep my tongue in check listening as my "discernment alarm bells" were ringing and this was just one a number of things he said that set them off. Hard though to go to the friend that took me and say what could sound like "it felt wrong" and have nothing to back it up. Want to have lots of ammunition to show them why they themselves should stay away.

Thanks,

Joe

I can possibly see why he said what he said. It's rather a romantic concept then a biblical one. I think it's important to note in this instance that spirits are genderless...

A male spirit can be taken from a female spirit? No. But...
God created man. God created a spirit for man.
God created woman. God created a spirit for woman.

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 05:04 PM
I was at a bible study the other night and the pastor leading it said that Eve's sprit was taken out of Adam's Spirit. (For context he is a "word of faith" guy.) This was new to me and got me thinking if anyone here holds this view... why?

How could Eve then (assuming his point) have been an individual instead of just being part of Adam? Were their children individuals or only part of their spirit? Would anyone truly be an individual spirit?

My first thoughts are that Eve had her own unique spirit given to her when she was formed by God, as we do when formed in the womb. But I am not finding yet what are to me clear scriptures showing us having wholly individual spirits.

pondering...???

Joe

There is One Spirit. To understand this better think of Trinity theology and apply it to humanity.

1Cr 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
__________________________

1Cr 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Cr 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

1Cr 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1Cr 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1Cr 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
________________________________

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
___________________

Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
____________________________________

This is all to show that humanity is one as the Godhead is one. ie. His image and likeness


Here is what I posted from the "image and likeness" thread.

"I believe we are to understand this from the perspective of the Trinity. In Genesis 1:26-30, we are reading of the Trinity which made man. The Father is speaking to God the Son, and He uses personal pronouns "Us" and "Our". These pronouns indicate three distinct Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as noted in Genesis 1:1-3.

The word "image" is in the singular, and shows the three distinct Persons of the Trinity are one in nature and undivided. It does not say "our images". Therefore, the Holy Trinity is one undivided nature in three distinct Persons.

Man is not one in nature with the Holy Trinity. But he was made in the image and likeness of the Trinity, and he was made male and female. Therefore, the dignity of each man and each woman is this image and likeness, meaning in relation to our created nature.

In Genesis 5:3, Seth was begotten from Adam and Eve. This threefold relationship illustrates, to a certain extent, the Holy Trinity. Adam had no human father. He was begotten by no one. Thus he was "unbegotten". Seth was begotten from Adam. Eve was neither unbegotten nor begotten. Instead she "proceeded" from Adam (2:21). Therefore, Eve and Seth were related to unbegotten Adam, but each in a unique manner-Eve proceeded from Adam, but Seth was begotten from him. Each person had his or her own distinct and unique properties-unbegotten, begotten, and proceeding-but all three possessed the same human nature.
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1863901&postcount=47


See no individuality.:)

Friend of I AM
Nov 18th 2008, 05:51 PM
There is One Spirit. To understand this better think of Trinity theology and apply it to humanity.

1Cr 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
__________________________

1Cr 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Cr 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

1Cr 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1Cr 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1Cr 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
________________________________

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
___________________

Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
____________________________________

This is all to show that humanity is one as the Godhead is one. ie. His image and likeness



See no individuality.:)

Thanks for the info Tek. You are correct, the Holy Spirit is indeed one spirit, with many individual qualities to it as you've mentioned above. It's a spirit of truth, of love, of patience, knowledge, wisdom, etc. I think perhaps the bride represents some of the more feminine qualities that make up the spirit, seeing as how Christ represents the husband of the union.

One thing that might be interesting to think about is whether or not Adam was infused with the Holy Spirit of Truth from the onset of creation. My immediate guess would be no, due to him not knowing that disobeying God was evil. I think that would probably mean that Eve's spirit probably was indeed taken from Adam's in a sense, and had invidual feminine qualities to it, although both were still of one spirit. Nothing really difinitive that tells us this in scripture though.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 06:10 PM
Hi Stephan :)

Thanks for the info Tek. You are correct, the Holy Spirit is indeed one spirit, with many individual qualities to it as you've mentioned above. It's a spirit of truth, of love, of patience, knowledge, wisdom, etc. I think perhaps the bride represents some of the more feminine qualities that make up the spirit, seeing as how Christ represents the husband of the union.

Your welcome.:)
I agree.


One thing that might be interesting to think about is whether or not Adam was infused with the Holy Spirit of Truth from the onset of creation. My immediate guess would be no, due to him not knowing that disobeying God was evil. I think that would probably mean that Eve's spirit probably was indeed taken from Adam's in a sense, and had invidual feminine qualities to it, although both were still of one spirit. Nothing really difinitive that tells us this in scripture though.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

Adam certainly did have the Holy Spirit, that is how he became a life giving spirit (in the procreative sense, relating to the earthly). And he did know what he was doing, which is why God's judgment came upon mankind. Scripture clearly states it was the woman in the transgression (a transgression means a sin of ignorance, God forgives us those type of sins). But because Adam knowingly sinned he couldn't be forgiven, he had to be judged and suffer the consequences of his actions.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Friend of I AM
Nov 18th 2008, 06:55 PM
Adam certainly did have the Holy Spirit, that is how he became a life giving spirit (in the procreative sense, relating to the earthly). And he did know what he was doing, which is why God's judgment came upon mankind. Scripture clearly states it was the woman in the transgression (a transgression means a sin of ignorance, God forgives us those type of sins). But because Adam knowingly sinned he couldn't be forgiven, he had to be judged and suffer the consequences of his actions.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

You make some interesting points. Just to clarify though, the life giving ability of Adam should not be thought of or used synonomously with that of the Holy Spirit. Let's look at 1 Corinthians 15:45-46.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Adam was a natural, not a spiritual being. Adam possessed knowledge, but he was not instilled with the divine spirit of God. This came later. Still, Adam had enough knowledge instilled in him by God in order for God to hold him accountable for his disobedience.

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 07:36 PM
You make some interesting points. Just to clarify though, the life giving ability of Adam should not be thought of or used synonomously with that of the Holy Spirit. Let's look at 1 Corinthians 15:45-46.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Adam was a natural, not a spiritual being. Adam possessed knowledge, but he was not instilled with the divine spirit of God. This came later. Still, Adam had enough knowledge instilled in him by God in order for God to hold him accountable for his disobedience.

Of course Adam wasn't ONLY a spiritual being or he'd have been bodiless like the angels. What your terming "natural" is "earthly" meaning relating to that which is earthly. Since Adam was created by God in an earthly state of being, that is what Adam was more knowledgeable about. The tree of knowledge of good and evil, isn't the tree of spiritual knowledge.

Adam surely had the spirit of God to have life in any way. To have the spirit of God doesn't mean you have spiritual knowledge, which is wisdom only given by God, not by trees. The story relates earthly things and how their relevant to spiritual things.

Friend of I AM
Nov 18th 2008, 07:47 PM
Of course Adam wasn't ONLY a spiritual being or he'd have been bodiless like the angels. What your terming "natural" is "earthly" meaning relating to that which is earthly. Since Adam was created by God in an earthly state of being, that is what Adam was more knowledgeable about. The tree of knowledge of good and evil, isn't the tree of spiritual knowledge.

Adam surely had the spirit of God to have life in any way. To have the spirit of God doesn't mean you have spiritual knowledge, which is wisdom only given by God, not by trees. The story relates earthly things and how their relevant to spiritual things.

Hey Teke,

I think I see what your saying :) Perhaps you mean that Adam had a soul. Still doesn't take away from the fact that he was in a natural state, not a divine one. Scripture usually uses the term "spirit of man"(1 Corinthians 2:11) when referring to the natural/earthy spirit that man has in this state. Perhaps the Holy Spirit entered him after eating from the tree of knowledge. That would be my guess, as he clearly knew the difference between good and evil after eating from the Tree.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

Teke
Nov 18th 2008, 09:54 PM
Hey Teke,

I think I see what your saying :) Perhaps you mean that Adam had a soul.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

What is God breathing here but His spirit of life into him.


Still doesn't take away from the fact that he was in a natural state, not a divine one. Scripture usually uses the term "spirit of man"(1 Corinthians 2:11) when referring to the natural/earthy spirit that man has in this state.

I agree. But when we place this in contrast to Jesus we must also not say he wasn't a "spiritual man". As Jesus full humanity would also have that same One Spirit. There is only One spirit.


Perhaps the Holy Spirit entered him after eating from the tree of knowledge. That would be my guess, as he clearly knew the difference between good and evil after eating from the Tree.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

I don't know about the Holy Spirit entering him. Adam only knew good, the tree brought knowledge of both. I believe it is a reflective type of understanding. Adam knows good before he knows evil. We know evil before we know good. Another example would be death. Adam didn't know death until that point either. We do, and we sin because of knowing this. It's a bit paradoxical.

Peace,
Eve

Friend of I AM
Nov 18th 2008, 10:56 PM
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

What is God breathing here but His spirit of life into him.


Breath of life is not the same as Holy Spirit referenced in the New Testament. This spirit which it is speaking of is basically metaphorical of life coming from the ground. The spirit that gives eternal life is that which comes from God..this is the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost referenced in scriptures.

John 7:37
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Remember flesh and blood(those things that are natural) cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Whenever we see breath of life referenced in scripture, we can always refer this to God giving or creating life from the ground. All mankind as well as animals were formed from God giving them the breath of life(or from the dust) Here's an interesting verse from Ecclesiastes that helps support this...

Ecclesiastes 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Thus "breath of life" has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit..and it is not that which Jesus gave up upon being glorified. This is an incorrect doctrine that is very prevelant nowadays among believers. Adam was formed from the dust. He was entirely a natural being as referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:45-46. God could have sustained him indefinitely as just a natural being if he desired, but he wanted Adam and his children to inherit his eternal spirit, so they could become true sons of God.



I agree. But when we place this in contrast to Jesus we must also not say he wasn't a "spiritual man". As Jesus full humanity would also have that same One Spirit. There is only One spirit.


Yes there is one spirit which gives men eternal life, wisdom, knowledge, love, etc. This spirit is the Holy Spirit..not the spirit of man and not the breath of life(or dust of the earth that God uses to create man).



I don't know about the Holy Spirit entering him. Adam only knew good, the tree brought knowledge of both. I believe it is a reflective type of understanding. Adam knows good before he knows evil. We know evil before we know good. Another example would be death. Adam didn't know death until that point either. We do, and we sin because of knowing this. It's a bit paradoxical.


I would more than likely say that the spirit did enter Adam, as only the spirit of truth can be used to discern that which is good and evil. You can also look at the tree that gives knowledge of good and evil as being representative of Christ himself...being that the spirit that he gives, enables one to discern the difference between good and evil, truth from error.

In Christ,

Stephen

Teke
Nov 19th 2008, 12:30 AM
This spirit which it is speaking of is basically metaphorical of life coming from the ground.

Is this going in the direction of man's evolution.


The spirit that gives eternal life is that which comes from God..this is the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost referenced in scriptures.

Can't the same spirit not give you eternal life?


John 7:37
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Holy Ghost is given at Pentecost to anoint the church in my understanding.


Remember flesh and blood(those things that are natural) cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Whenever we see breath of life referenced in scripture, we can always refer this to God giving or creating life from the ground. All mankind as well as animals were formed from God giving them the breath of life(or from the dust) Here's an interesting verse from Ecclesiastes that helps support this...

I don't see the breath of life coming from the ground. Nor being used on animals, because it doesn't go into details about them.




..and it is not that which Jesus gave up upon being glorified.

Yes, He just breathed his last breath from His human body.


This is an incorrect doctrine that is very prevelant nowadays among believers. Adam was formed from the dust. He was entirely a natural being as referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:45-46.

A few verses of scripture does not make a doctrine.


God could have sustained him indefinitely as just a natural being if he desired, but he wanted Adam and his children to inherit his eternal spirit, so they could become true sons of God.


In Christ,

Stephen

Sure, He wanted them to inherit the kingdom. That was His plan from the beginning. We don't "inherit his eternal spirit". You'd have to show me scripture for that thought.

Peace,
Eve

Walstib
Nov 19th 2008, 12:54 AM
Have so much to respond to everything the two of you are talking about I and where my studies are going I hardly know where to start.... and I have little time tonight.

Teke,
This verse seems to be a "two witness" one. How can the "one spirit" theme, as I understand you, harmonize?

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, (Rom 8:16 NKJV)

Stephen,
About the dust, spirit direction thing you mention...

Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Ecc 12:7 NKJV)

That and when I read this verse the other night it shook my understanding a bit, lots of shaking going on really.

Grace and peace,

Joe

Friend of I AM
Nov 19th 2008, 02:34 PM
Sure, He wanted them to inherit the kingdom. That was His plan from the beginning. We don't "inherit his eternal spirit". You'd have to show me scripture for that thought.

Peace,
Eve

John 7:37-39 essentially points to this, as water is the life giving ingredient that everything needs in order to live. This is why Jesus states one's belly will be full of "rivers of water" if they have faith in him. A man will be sustained indefinitely in Christ if he has faith in him. John 11:25-30 essentially states this very same thing, except it does not make any reference to Christ being the living water.

I was off on the tree of knowledge representing life in Christ. More than likely it represented death as oppossed to life, seeing as how God specifically stated to Adam that he would die if he ate from it.

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Nov 19th 2008, 02:48 PM
Stephen,
About the dust, spirit direction thing you mention...

Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Ecc 12:7 NKJV)



My only guess at this line would be that Solomon was making reference to the Holy Spirit, not the spirit of man and beasts(or soul) that he referenced in the earlier verses of Ecclesiaste's 3. Solomon knew of the Holy Spirit and was filled with it, as he received "wisdom" from God(which is one of the individual qualities of the Holy Spirit) There is definitely a distinction made between the Holy Spirit and the soul within the scriptures as 1 Corinthians 15 45-46 points out.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Thus Adam did not possess an eternal life giving spirit like Christ did. When God fills us with his Holy spirit, it always returns to him. Our soul..or "breath of life" can either descend back to the dust or ascend to heaven depending on whether or not God wills it to. My understanding is that our soul is essentially our personality, mannerisms, etc..that exist within the natural form. It does not possess eternal characteristics unto itself. Only God's spirit does. Our personality, mannerisms, etc..I believe are all representative of our soul...or the natural man. This is probably why we are so different even when we possess God's Holy spirit which is constant...as each man is uniquely brought forth/created from the dust by God.

Teke
Nov 19th 2008, 05:05 PM
John 7:37-39 essentially points to this, as water is the life giving ingredient that everything needs in order to live. This is why Jesus states one's belly will be full of "rivers of water" if they have faith in him. A man will be sustained indefinitely in Christ if he has faith in him. John 11:25-30 essentially states this very same thing, except it does not make any reference to Christ being the living water.

Stephan, I hope you understand better from this post to Walstib.


Have so much to respond to everything the two of you are talking about I and where my studies are going I hardly know where to start.... and I have little time tonight.

Teke,
This verse seems to be a "two witness" one. How can the "one spirit" theme, as I understand you, harmonize?

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, (Rom 8:16 NKJV)


Grace and peace,

Joe




Hi Joe :)
It is a two witness subject, in the sense that both heaven and earth bear witness.
That the Spirit (God, heavenly in the "Himself") bears witness with our spirit, meaning that which God has given us (His spirit relating to the earthly) to be able to commune with Him. This doesn't mean we have been sealed by His Spirit yet. That remains for God to see.

You could look at it this way. There is a spiritual battle going on. Our spirit being the deepest part of our soul which communes with God. And our spirit also being a weapon or tool which God has given us to accomplish the task. If we loose then the spirit would return to God. If we win He seals that spirit He gave of Himself with His Spirit (a joining of one to another in agreement), resulting in our everlasting life.


Now I also realize there are scriptures such as, "try the spirits for they are many..." and are not all "of" God. But this is just meant in the sense that, that spirit is not being used in service to God. As in "for" (of God) or "against" (not of God, contrary to ). And of course God isn't going to let any created being use the spirit "of" Him, against Him. That would be a loosing battle. ie. striving against the wind

Another parallel would be scripture. Scripture does not stand on it's own merit. It stands because the church Body upholds it. Someone can use the scriptures for evil or for good. But it's still the same scripture.

When we deduce truth we do so from the paradigm that is the dogma of our faith, that being the Trinity model. The Trinity dogma results from the premise of scripture and God's people, a conclusive syllogism (another two witness example). In the Trinity, there is the Father, of which comes forth the Word, and the procession of the Spirit.

Hope your following this line of thought. As it also relates to our Christology. Christ being the literal embodiment, both heaven and earth joined in His full humanity as well as His full divinity, of this truth.

Here is a Psalm that basically says the same thing.

Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, procession of the Trinity they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

_______________________________

And...

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void,showing the Trinity procession that fulfills God's will but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper whereto I sent it.[i]meaning a fruitful creation

_________________________________

God, though He is a witness unto Himself in the Trinity, also uses creation to bear witness of Him to that which is created and can't visibly see Him. However, it is the same Spirit and procession of that Spirit.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 19th 2008, 09:14 PM
Looking through this topic I've seen some interesting points brought up within it. I definitely think that there is a distinction that should be made regarding what makes up the natural man and the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2 goes into exstensive detail about the this.

1 Cor 2:10 - 16
for God has revealed them to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except that person's own spirit within? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, "Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

So I definitely have to agree with what others have posted on here. There is a distinction between the natural-man spirit referred to many as the soul, and the Holy Spirit. Only the Holy Spirit can be used to discern the deeper meanings of God. Now I don't know entirely what "spirit of man" is, but probably has something to do with man in his natural form..similar to that of Adam. This is why it was so necessary for the disciples to receive the Holy Spirit from Jesus, they had no way to completely discern and teach God's word correctly without it.

Matthew

Teke
Nov 19th 2008, 10:04 PM
However we explain it, there is only One Spirit.


This is why it was so necessary for the disciples to receive the Holy Spirit from Jesus, they had no way to completely discern and teach God's word correctly without it.

The Apostles had to wait because it is the church the Holy Spirit is sealing/anointing, not just the Apostles.

a note: the Holy Spirit doesn't proceed from the Son, it proceeds from the Father. Small detail that can make a big difference. Look at the eastern and western church for an example. (filoque clause in the creed)

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 19th 2008, 10:19 PM
However we explain it, there is only One Spirit.



The Apostles had to wait because it is the church the Holy Spirit is sealing/anointing, not just the Apostles.

a note: the Holy Spirit doesn't proceed from the Son, it proceeds from the Father. Small detail that can make a big difference. Look at the eastern and western church for an example. (filoque clause in the creed)

Yes I agree there is one spirit, but as it has been mentioned before the "breath of life" or "spirit of man" that you continue to refer to is not the same as the "Holy Spirit." As for the Apostles, all were disciples of Christ. They were those who were primarily responsable for the spread of the New Testament doctrines, and there names are found in the various books of the New Testament.

godhelper5000
Nov 19th 2008, 10:52 PM
Hello I Found Your BIBLEforums Looking For Another Page And I Like It So I Replyed Hope To Help Some One When I Post My Pray And As I Read Other I Hope To Be Feed As Well God Bless Every One That Read This!!:pray:

Teke
Nov 20th 2008, 02:16 AM
Yes I agree there is one spirit, but as it has been mentioned before the "breath of life" or "spirit of man" that you continue to refer to is not the same as the "Holy Spirit."

Life comes only from God who is the Spirit of life. That "breath" doesn't have to mean everlasting life.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Would you say the Who that is blowing the Spirit is God? If so, wouldn't you say that "breath of life" is a blowing from God.
Grant it the John verse is being mystical about the work of the Spirit, as the verse uses a play on words, using the Greek word "pneuma", which means both "wind" and "spirit".

Friend of I AM
Nov 20th 2008, 03:20 PM
Life comes only from God who is the Spirit of life. That "breath" doesn't have to mean everlasting life.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Would you say the Who that is blowing the Spirit is God? If so, wouldn't you say that "breath of life" is a blowing from God.
Grant it the John verse is being mystical about the work of the Spirit, as the verse uses a play on words, using the Greek word "pneuma", which means both "wind" and "spirit".

I think you're reading way too much into these verses Eve. I think Jhn 3:8 is essentially equating the Holy Spirit itself to being like the wind, uncontrollable..we are unable to do anything against it or
effect it. (2:Corinthians 13:8) Thus that is the way it is with God.

I've given you many verses essentially demonstrating that it was the Holy Spirit that Jesus was giving up. Now back to the topic, you keep on denying that there is any distinction between Adam and Christ within the following verse:

1 Corinthians
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

But it implicity states that the first Adam was "natural", and the second Adam(Christ) was "spiritual." I don't know why you keep going around this. And to top all of this off, there is no verse within Genesis which states that Adam was given the "Holy Spirit" upon his creation. The only verse which I believe where it could be surmised that man indeed was filled with the Holy Spirit is in Genesis 3:22 where it states the following..

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Notice how it references God now likening man to himself. We know that God is not a natural being. He is a spirit.(John 4:24) The only way one can reason as to why God is now likening man to himself, is because man has now fully become a spiritual being..something he wasn't before he ate from the tree of knowledge.

This has been an interesting discussion with you Teke. My point I think has been thoroughly made, so I will bow out of this discussion for now. I hope you didn't take anything I said as offensive. God bless in Christian Love. Stephen

Teke
Nov 20th 2008, 04:46 PM
I think you're reading way too much into these verses Eve. I think Jhn 3:8 is essentially equating the Holy Spirit itself to being like the wind, uncontrollable..we are unable to do anything against it or
effect it. (2:Corinthians 13:8) Thus that is the way it is with God.

I've given you many verses essentially demonstrating that it was the Holy Spirit that Jesus was giving up.

We're talking about the Holy Spirit, and you've given me verses on "living water". While "living water" may relate to the effect of the Holy Spirit, water isn't the Holy Spirit itself. ("living water" being a verb relating the action of giving everlasting life vs The Holy Spirit which is a noun)

It is contrary to established Christian dogma to say that Jesus gave up, or could even give up, the Holy Spirit. Because He is One with the Father and Holy Spirit. In practical traditional Trinitarian theology you can't separate them.


Now back to the topic, you keep on denying that there is any distinction between Adam and Christ within the following verse:

1 Corinthians
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

But it implicity states that the first Adam was "natural", and the second Adam(Christ) was "spiritual." I don't know why you keep going around this.

I haven't denied any distinction. And I'm not going around that verse. The context of that verse in it's surrounding verses explains the answer to the question posed in that verse. If scripture gives a clear answer there is no other answer to deduce from it.




And to top all of this off, there is no verse within Genesis which states that Adam was given the "Holy Spirit" upon his creation. The only verse which I believe where it could be surmised that man indeed was filled with the Holy Spirit is in Genesis 3:22 where it states the following..

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Notice how it references God now likening man to himself. We know that God is not a natural being. He is a spirit.(John 4:24) The only way one can reason as to why God is now likening man to himself, is because man has now fully become a spiritual being..something he wasn't before he ate from the tree of knowledge.

This has been an interesting discussion with you Teke. My point I think has been thoroughly made, so I will bow out of this discussion for now. I hope you didn't take anything I said as offensive. God bless in Christian Love. Stephen

Here are your words, "A man will be sustained indefinitely". This is the point I'm making. The Spirit can sustain you however long God allows. He can sustain you for a natural earthly life, or an everlasting heavenly life. I thought we agreed on this point.

I certainly haven't taken anything you've said offensively Stephan. Forgive me for any confusion I may have caused you.

In Christ's peace,
Eve

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 20th 2008, 05:48 PM
1 Corinthians 15:35-49

The Resurrection Body
But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.


I don't think the point about Adam being entirely natural and Jesus Christ coming down as the spiritual man can be made any clearer than in the verses above. Adam was originally made by God to be a natural being. He came from the dust.

Matthew

Teke
Nov 20th 2008, 06:14 PM
I don't think the point being originally made about Adam being entirely natural, and Jesus Christ coming down as the spiritual man can be made any clearer than in the verses above. Adam was originally made by God to be an entirely a natural being. He came from the dust.

Matthew

If Adam didn't have any spiritual aspect to him, then how did he communicate with God who is Spirit?
I am not denying he was an earthly/natural man.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 20th 2008, 07:32 PM
If Adam didn't have any spiritual aspect to him, then how did he communicate with God who is Spirit?
I am not denying he was an earthly/natural man.

I know where you are getting at.."my sheep hear my voice..."

Still, that doesn't denote the fact that God can speak to us in anyway he likes. He spoke to Moses through a burning bush and face to face in spiritual form at the Tabernacle, while others were viewing. He spoke to Elijah in a quiet voice ..and he spoke to Balaam through a donkey. I think God can present himself to us in anyway he likes to...I don't think he's limited to communicating to means of convential understanding, particularly in those means which accomadate and fall in line with our interpretation of scripture.


Exodus 3:4-6
When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"
And Moses said, "Here I am."

1 Kings 18
1 Long afterward, in the third year, the LORD spoke to Elijah, "Go, present yourself to Ahab," he said, "that I may send rain upon the earth."

1 Kings 19:13-14
When Elijah heard the quiet voice, he muffled his face with his great cloak, went to the mouth of the cave, and stood there. A quiet voice asked, "So Elijah, now tell me, what are you doing here?"

Rev 1:15
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Exodus 33:8-11
And it came to pass, when Moses went out unto the tabernacle, that all the people rose up, and stood every man at his tent door, and looked after Moses, until he was gone into the tabernacle.

And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.
And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door. And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Teke
Nov 20th 2008, 07:46 PM
I'm not trying to make a point that God (the fullness of the Holy Spirit) is in everyone (that only applies to Jesus Christ). But that it is His Spirit, which is the Spirit of Life, which gives us life, whether that be a temporal life or an everlasting life.

And that it is through this Spirit of Life that He communes with us.

So I'm not saying He can't communicate through any means He chooses to.

I guess a better word to relate what I mean is "noetic". There is a noetic aspect to our natural being.
But we may be getting off topic on that subject.

In Genesis we read of the Spirit operating in the bringing forth of life in the creation.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 20th 2008, 07:54 PM
I'm not trying to make a point that God (the fullness of the Holy Spirit) is in everyone (that only applies to Jesus Christ). But that it is His Spirit, which is the Spirit of Life, which gives us life, whether that be a temporal life or an everlasting life.

And that it is through this Spirit of Life that He communes with us.

So I'm not saying He can't communicate through any means He chooses to.

I guess a better word to relate what I mean is "noetic". There is a noetic aspect to our natural being.
But we may be getting off topic on that subject.

In Genesis we read of the Spirit operating in the bringing forth of life in the creation.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

You're reading too much into these scriptures Eve. Be careful in imputing man-made words and doctrines with scripture. One thing I will say though is that God is everything..as he exists everywhere within the universe. It's really hard for us to surmise what natural and spiritual mean to him in entirety, and how he completely created everything from just his spiritual form. This goes way beyond both of our understandings. We just have to chalk these things up to the many mysteries of creation.

Walstib
Nov 21st 2008, 12:48 AM
Hi Stephan,
My only guess at this line would be that Solomon was making reference to the Holy Spirit, not the spirit of man and beasts(or soul) that he referenced in the earlier verses of Ecclesiaste's 3. Solomon knew of the Holy Spirit and was filled with it, as he received "wisdom" from God(which is one of the individual qualities of the Holy Spirit) There is definitely a distinction made between the Holy Spirit and the soul within the scriptures as 1 Corinthians 15 45-46 points out.
I hear you speaking of spirit and soul but not the flesh. Going back to the triune nature of man spirit, soul and body. “Natural” to me has more to do with the flesh and the lusts thereof. The dust *atoms?* representing this part.

Our soul..or "breath of life" can either descend back to the dust or ascend to heaven depending on whether or not God wills it to.
I think of Hebrews 4:12, Dividing soul and spirit. If the breath of life is the spirit of man, it would not follow it is the same as soul. That and I don’t see how it can go “back to the dust” if it comes from God.

My understanding is that our soul is essentially our personality, mannerisms, etc. .that exist within the natural form.
I pretty much agree…

It does not possess eternal characteristics unto itself. Only God's spirit does.
This I am wondering more about, I am thinking soul may have more eternal characteristics than I thought before.

Our personality, mannerisms, etc..I believe are all representative of our soul...or the natural man.
I would just add flesh is part of the natural man as well.

This is probably why we are so different even when we possess God's Holy spirit which is constant...as each man is uniquely brought forth/created from the dust by God.
Neat eh? And then a believer get’s recreated in a way at regeneration. I was thinking about that today. Being able to get a new spirit yet remaining ourselves.

Grace and peace,
Joe

Walstib
Nov 21st 2008, 01:08 AM
Hi Matthew
Looking through this topic I've seen some interesting points brought up within it. I definitely think that there is a distinction that should be made regarding what makes up the natural man and the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2 goes into extensive detail about the this….….1 Cor 2:10 – 16……That is one of the verses that has me so passionate about this subject. The more I understand what my spirit is the better I can apply the wisdom from the passage in moment by moment decisions in life.
So I definitely have to agree with what others have posted on here. There is a distinction between the natural-man spirit referred to many as the soul, and the Holy Spirit.
How I apply what I just said to this would be the war we have within ourselves. Flesh lusts against the spirit. Gal 5:17. I don’t see the soul is the “natural man spirit” with some reasoning being in my last post to Stephen.

I agree a distinction can be made between all the “parts” we are discussing here. But in a way I can see a point where one could say--- The Holy Spirit “is” God.---- Our spirit is the breath of life from God.--- Our spirit has a certain “oneness” with the Holy Spirit. All spirit or Spirit being separable from soul and flesh.

Only the Holy Spirit can be used to discern the deeper meanings of God. Amen to that! But as to me it’s Mr. Holy Spirit, only He can help us discern is how I would have worded it.

Peace,

Joe

Walstib
Nov 21st 2008, 12:21 PM
HI Eve,
It is a two witness subject, in the sense that both heaven and earth bear witness.

That the Spirit (God, heavenly in the "Himself") bears witness with our spirit, meaning that which God has given us (His spirit relating to the earthly) to be able to commune with Him. I was thinking that myself after I asked. That God in trinity is a true witness as backed by numerous scripture. I hear your point in this though still have a notion that there is a created aspect to a man’s spirit. Can a man be a man without a spirit sort of thing, reasoning in how we are when our bodies die, regenerate and unregenerate. Still thinking…..
This doesn't mean we have been sealed by His Spirit yet. That remains for God to see.I trust you mean the unregenerate are unsealed yet still have a spirit that communes with God. This I agree with. With a special communion available to the regenerate.
You could look at it this way. There is a spiritual battle going on. Our spirit being the deepest part of our soul which communes with God. And our spirit also being a weapon or tool which God has given us to accomplish the task. Agreed, with the flesh coming into this battle and the “place” the enemy throws his darts at.

I will get to the rest later, thanks so much for participating.:)

Grace and peace,
Joe

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 21st 2008, 03:13 PM
Thanks for the post Joe. Both you and Eve have given some interesting insight into this discussion. God bless you both.

Teke
Nov 21st 2008, 07:55 PM
HI Eve, I was thinking that myself after I asked. That God in trinity is a true witness as backed by numerous scripture. I hear your point in this though still have a notion that there is a created aspect to a man’s spirit. Can a man be a man without a spirit sort of thing, reasoning in how we are when our bodies die, regenerate and unregenerate. Still thinking…..

I think we are fairly on the same page on this subject. :)
Of course what we believe about other things is also a factor in how we are able to view. Being here sharing will show us how each other understand things.

Man isn't like any other created creature because he has the ability to reason. This in essence, is what I believe has to do with our soul and our individuality. What I'm not saying is that this aspect is what gives us life. We're all characters, but to be a character there must be the spark of life which can only come from God. Because that spark is God, and God isn't a created being and because He is the one and only Spirit of all life, I believe the spirit (spark) isn't created.



I trust you mean the unregenerate are unsealed yet still have a spirit that communes with God. This I agree with. With a special communion available to the regenerate. Agreed, with the flesh coming into this battle and the “place” the enemy throws his darts at.

I will get to the rest later, thanks so much for participating.:)

Grace and peace,
Joe

We follow each other in agreement here. God could surely have sealed us with everlasting life from His Spirit if He wanted to. But instead, by death, put a boundary on what we would do with that spirit (spark of life) in the flesh. As He isn't going to allow evil to be seen as eternal as He is. A distinction was in order.

Death would also come to be what would be part of what He uses to draw us to Him. Although it is a paradox, death like life, is not of itself, that which is created. Like many other things, such as the passions of man (love, hate, the virtuous and non virtuous), which can also be "like things" of God, are not created either. They are experienced.

Peace be with you,
Eve

Walstib
Nov 22nd 2008, 04:11 PM
Hi Eve,

Now I also realize there are scriptures such as, "try the spirits for they are many..." and are not all "of" God. But this is just meant in the sense that, that spirit is not being used in service to God. As in "for" (of God) or "against" (not of God, contrary to ). And of course God isn't going to let any created being use the spirit "of" Him, against Him. That would be a loosing battle. ie. striving against the wind
This is one of the areas I am still trying to harmonize. Not so much the angle you are presenting but that of the individuality of the beings who are only spiritual. Angels let’s say, the archangel Michael. No flesh and arguably no soul I think, only still existing as an individual as far as I can tell.
In your last post….

Man isn't like any other created creature because he has the ability to reason. This in essence, is what I believe has to do with our soul and our individuality. What I'm not saying is that this aspect is what gives us life. We're all characters, but to be a character there must be the spark of life which can only come from God. Because that spark is God, and God isn't a created being and because He is the one and only Spirit of all life, I believe the spirit (spark) isn't created.
I hear you. What I am trying to fit in is, the beggar in Abraham’s bosom or the rich man for that reason. The spirits in prison that Peter speaks of. How are we present with the Lord when absent from body if it takes a body to have a soul. 2Co 5. The resurrection of our bodies from the dust does come into this but is future for most as I understand. You have Elijah and the whirlwind , the saints in Mat 27. Whatever is going on at the transfiguration….

My point being that the spiritual life we have apart from our bodies seems to still has an element of self to it. Heavenly beings having individual characteristics yet not having bodies or the soulical qualities that distinguish man apart from the rest of creation. That everything from heaven to earth is created and sustained by and through the Godhead, one can reason all things have a oneness with God and would return to Him if He willed it. This being an extension of what I perceive to be part of your reasoning.

I’m still looking for something…

Thoughts? Everyone else is welcome to join in….

Joe

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 22nd 2008, 05:12 PM
My point being that the spiritual life we have apart from our bodies seems to still has an element of self to it. Heavenly beings having individual characteristics yet not having bodies or the soulical qualities that distinguish man apart from the rest of creation. That everything from heaven to earth is created and sustained by and through the Godhead, one can reason all things have a oneness with God and would return to Him if He willed it. This being an extension of what I perceive to be part of your reasoning.

I’m still looking for something…

Thoughts? Everyone else is welcome to join in….

Joe

Hey Joe,

What you are asking basically can be answered by the doctrine of reconciliation.(2 Corinthians 5:11-21) Remember when Christ died, it was for all men. Thus..all men as well as the world as a whole were essentially reconciled back to God through the resurrection. This is how God judges men...and searches their hearts and minds..as his spirit is now in all men to a degree, and encompasses and includes all of creation.

Think of this verse...

Ephesians 4:9-10
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

What Paul has stated above essentially lines up with what David states in his Psalms...

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

I still don't think any of this makes us spiritual beings from the onset of creation, as the bible distinctly defines us to be natural beings in many places.

Matthew

Teke
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:54 AM
Hi Eve,

This is one of the areas I am still trying to harmonize. Not so much the angle you are presenting but that of the individuality of the beings who are only spiritual. Angels let’s say, the archangel Michael. No flesh and arguably no soul I think, only still existing as an individual as far as I can tell.
In your last post….

I hear you. What I am trying to fit in is, the beggar in Abraham’s bosom or the rich man for that reason. The spirits in prison that Peter speaks of. How are we present with the Lord when absent from body if it takes a body to have a soul. 2Co 5. The resurrection of our bodies from the dust does come into this but is future for most as I understand. You have Elijah and the whirlwind , the saints in Mat 27. Whatever is going on at the transfiguration….

My point being that the spiritual life we have apart from our bodies seems to still has an element of self to it. Heavenly beings having individual characteristics yet not having bodies or the soulical qualities that distinguish man apart from the rest of creation. That everything from heaven to earth is created and sustained by and through the Godhead, one can reason all things have a oneness with God and would return to Him if He willed it. This being an extension of what I perceive to be part of your reasoning.

I’m still looking for something…

Thoughts? Everyone else is welcome to join in….

Joe

Hi Joe,:)
As to heavenly beings, they are bodiless powers, which in essence have a soul ( a character, like a personality), just not like ours, as theirs is attached to their heavenly or spiritual bodies. Like Paul said, "another glory" (1 Cor. 15). Scripture even hints that they are studious in comparing one to another in their knowledge in deed, of "the word" ("scripture of truth" in the Septuagint, Daniel 12:21).

Our souls are associated with our bodies in the sense that they experience things through the body. So even if the soul was with the Lord, it wouldn't forget the body's experience. Essentially this is something that should be considered by every living being. As whatever you are in life here, will come to fruition in the heavens. Just as sure as God can make a seed grow.
So yes, the element of self remains.

from 1 Corinthians 15
Foolish one, what you sow is not is not made alive unless it die.
And that which you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain, perhaps wheat or some other. But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed it's own body.

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam became a living being (soul in the body); the last Adam became a life giving spirit (soul in the spirit).

The Resurrection body is what God intends for our present body.

Peace,
Eve

Walstib
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:39 PM
Hi Eve,

For sure there is still lots of agreement.

As to heavenly beings, they are bodiless powers, which in essence have a soul ( a character, like a personality), just not like ours, as theirs is attached to their heavenly or spiritual bodies. This spiritual body theme is good. I was seeing it in 2 Cor after reading Mathew’s post and again in 1 Cor as you are bringing up. Then thinking of the “wheels” in Ezekiel just now. Or for example, to “see” an angel I would not think they need to take a physical form but one can be permitted to see “heavenly forms” if God will it. Many examples of this I think.
Like Paul said, "another glory" (1 Cor. 15). Scripture even hints that they are studious in comparing one to another in their knowledge in deed, of "the word" ("scripture of truth" in the Septuagint, Daniel 12:21
It’s funny how we can know something but miss it’s influence on another thing. Spiritual bodies are not new to me but I think it is a lot of what I was missing in context for this discussion. I can’t find Daniel 12:21 *even in my Septuagint* but I think I found your point in the book. Or Luke 15:10 where the angels have joy, this to me gives a sense of self let alone the ability to rebel against God as the fallen angels have done.

Our souls are associated with our bodies in the sense that they experience things through the body. So even if the soul was with the Lord, it wouldn't forget the body's experience. Essentially this is something that should be considered by every living being. As whatever you are in life here, will come to fruition in the heavens.
I hear you. I think about people who believe in “soul sleep” here. As my logic flows most dead peoples bodies are still in the grave. So the resurrection body the redeemed will have , as typified by Jesus’ resurrection, is a future body.

If one sees any sort of spiritual body for a saved soul is resurrected from the old body, *sown seed* then those away from their physical bodies now would be lacking the spiritual body needed to “be the temple” for the spirit and soul. As said in 1 Cor “each one in his own order” giving a future tense. I don’t believe in soul sleep myself but am more reasoning out loud here.

Thinking there may be evidence that by the very nature of having a spirit, there in a way is a spiritual body existing but not yet renewed in regeneration.?.? If not there is a strong case for soul sleep. Yet there is more evidence against it and so I still have something missing.

You mention “soul in the spirit”. I am just thinking if your context is that all spirit is one with no individuality, how can that self exist within what is wholly God’s. I hope you get the question. Towards that I was thinking of this verse.

All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the spirits.
(Pro 16:2 NKJV)

If the Lord is weighing the spirits, under your context is He not judging Himself?

Thanks with hope of grace extending,
Joe

Walstib
Nov 23rd 2008, 04:09 PM
Hi Matthew,


I still don't think any of this makes us spiritual beings from the onset of creation, as the bible distinctly defines us to be natural beings in many places.

Are you saying you think the "natural man" has no spirit? Sorry if I missed the point you were making, it looks like Revolvr has a thread right on topic if this was your point.

Rather speaking of spiritual death prior to regeneration I was thinking of verses showing spiritual life before regeneration... this is what I was looking at this morning,

Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation, (Num 27:16 NKJV)

And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. (Gen 7:21-22 NKJV)

Another angle would be the promises of recieving a new spirit rather than a first spirit. Eze 11:19, 18:31, 36:26

Possible here that Hezekiah speaks of his spirit before a restoration. He had life in his spirit but will live.

O Lord, by these things men live; And in all these things is the life of my spirit; So You will restore me and make me live. Indeed it was for my own peace That I had great bitterness; But You have lovingly delivered my soul from the pit of corruption, For You have cast all my sins behind Your back. (Isa 38:16-17 NKJV)

Peace,
Joe

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 23rd 2008, 06:03 PM
Hi Matthew,
Are you saying you think the "natural man" has no spirit? Sorry if I missed the point you were making, it looks like Revolvr has a thread right on topic if this was your point.


1 Corinthians 15:46-47
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

In our natural forms we don't possess any eternal spiritual qualities. The resurrection of Christ and his Holy Spirit gives us eternal qualities like that of God. Thus that is why the scripture above characterizes us as being natural even if one is said to be a living soul(like Adam was originally)

I believe our souls are representative of us in this natural form without the flesh...and they characterize our personalities and whatnot. I believe that the Holy Spirit encompasses or "quickens" our souls and gives them eternal qualities.

Walstib
Nov 23rd 2008, 07:49 PM
Hi Matthew,

I am feeling sort of dense for not seeing what you and Stephen were saying after reading back over this thread a couple of times. I guess I honestly would have to say I never would have thought anyone believed the natural man exists without a spirit, even considering your Corinthians passage. We all live in our own little bubble in a way….

I will give your position some thought, but it is distant from my convictions right now.

May God bless you through His Son, without whom we would have no Hope,

Joe

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 23rd 2008, 10:06 PM
Hi Matthew,

I am feeling sort of dense for not seeing what you and Stephen were saying after reading back over this thread a couple of times. I guess I honestly would have to say I never would have thought anyone believed the natural man exists without a spirit, even considering your Corinthians passage. We all live in our own little bubble in a way….

I will give your position some thought, but it is distant from my convictions right now.

May God bless you through His Son, without whom we would have no Hope,

Joe

No problem. It can get a bit confusing. I guess one could say that natural to God just means not eternal. Now another interesting question to ask would be, why didn't God just create Adam a spiritual being(in the eternal sense) to begin with..like he did with the angels?

My answer would be that I guess it all comes down to God's plan with man, and why he specifically created them. Definitely interesting and thought provoking things to think about. Thank you once again for all of your input. God bless in Christ.

Teke
Nov 24th 2008, 01:56 PM
I hear you. I think about people who believe in “soul sleep” here. As my logic flows most dead peoples bodies are still in the grave. So the resurrection body the redeemed will have , as typified by Jesus’ resurrection, is a future body.

If one sees any sort of spiritual body for a saved soul is resurrected from the old body, *sown seed* then those away from their physical bodies now would be lacking the spiritual body needed to “be the temple” for the spirit and soul. As said in 1 Cor “each one in his own order” giving a future tense. I don’t believe in soul sleep myself but am more reasoning out loud here.

Literally speaking, we are not the temple, the Lord God is. In 1 Cor. 6, Paul contends the "body" belongs to God, and everything is relevant to the spiritual life. So if our soul is not with our body, then it is within Him who is the Temple.


Thinking there may be evidence that by the very nature of having a spirit, there in a way is a spiritual body existing but not yet renewed in regeneration.?.? If not there is a strong case for soul sleep. Yet there is more evidence against it and so I still have something missing.

Look at it from the manner that our life in the flesh determines what our seed will be and bring forth. Our "seed" being our body, which is literally put in the ground when we die in the flesh, as a seed is, and will eventually bring forth it's fruit (that which it becomes). Wouldn't you say this relates to "regeneration"?
The seed analogy relates to us that which only God can do.


You mention “soul in the spirit”. I am just thinking if your context is that all spirit is one with no individuality, how can that self exist within what is wholly God’s. I hope you get the question. Towards that I was thinking of this verse.

All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the spirits.
(Pro 16:2 NKJV)

If the Lord is weighing the spirits, under your context is He not judging Himself?

Thanks with hope of grace extending,
Joe

Best way of relating the concept, that I can think of, is by the example of government. As scripture states, the kingdoms of this world have become the Lords'.

In such an example, there is the overarching government, and the sub governments of that. Scripture proves this concept out, especially in the OT as we read of God's judgment on particular governments.

God gave mankind the earth to govern within His kingdom. With judgment we not only see individuals, but governments being judged. In the end, all is accountable to Him. Both individual and governmental.

My translation of Proverbs 16:2 is "Every high hearted man is unclean before the Lord. And he who joins hands with the unrighteous will not go unpunished."

In peace,
Eve

Marc B
Nov 25th 2008, 09:01 PM
Hey ƒσяєяυииєя

Yes would be the short answer.

Our spirit being the eternal part of ourselves which has the ability to commune with God being part of the long answer.

Joe

If the soul is immortal then why does it say in the Bible the soul that sins dies in Ezekiel 18:4?

Marc B
Nov 25th 2008, 09:19 PM
1 Corinthians 15:46-47
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

In our natural forms we don't possess any eternal spiritual qualities. The resurrection of Christ and his Holy Spirit gives us eternal qualities like that of God. Thus that is why the scripture above characterizes us as being natural even if one is said to be a living soul(like Adam was originally)

I believe our souls are representative of us in this natural form without the flesh...and they characterize our personalities and whatnot. I believe that the Holy Spirit encompasses or "quickens" our souls and gives them eternal qualities.

Where does it say in the Bible we are given eternal life at conversion? Ezekiel 18:4 says the soul that sins it shall die. Pretty straight forward. Eternal life is only granted at the second advent [those that are His] are transformed into spirit bodies both the resurrected dead and living at that time. The great white throne judgement, [the rest of humanity] will be resurrected, some to eternal life and some to shame and eternal contempt. Daniel 12:2.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 25th 2008, 10:45 PM
Where does it say in the Bible we are given eternal life at conversion?


John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

1 Corinthians 15:12-13
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.

John 17
After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Hebrews 4:1-3
Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. Now we who have believed enter that rest...

Matthew 11:25-30
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

So having faith and believing in Christ brings one rest and eternal life..the eternal life that his Father has extended to mankind through him by the resurrection.




Ezekiel 18:4 says the soul that sins it shall die. Pretty straight forward. Eternal life is only granted at the second advent [those that are His] are transformed into spirit bodies both the resurrected dead and living at that time. The great white throne judgement, [the rest of humanity] will be resurrected, some to eternal life and some to shame and eternal contempt. Daniel 12:2.


1 John 4:17
God's love has reached its goal in us. So we look ahead with confidence to the day of judgment. While we are in this world, we are exactly like him [with regard to love].

1 John 4:18
No fear exists where his love is. Rather, perfect love gets rid of fear, because fear involves punishment. The person who lives in fear doesn't have perfect love.

God bless in Christian Love,

Matthew

Walstib
Nov 25th 2008, 11:55 PM
Hi Eve,
Literally speaking, we are not the temple, the Lord God is. In 1 Cor. 6, Paul contends the "body" belongs to God, and everything is relevant to the spiritual life. So if our soul is not with our body, then it is within Him who is the Temple. Again I can see everything single thing can be said to be of God and upheld by God and belonging to God. I agree everything is relevant to the spiritual life. There is just something in this reasoning that does not sit well with me. We are the temple but not really because our body is upheld and belongs to God so God is the temple. We have faith but not really because God gives us everything it’s really God’s faith. We have freedom but not really because God gave us freedom so it is His freedom. We love God but not really because it is really His love in us.

I just think robots… I mean it is all true in a way but leaves something out. And I don’t have the words right now to express what that is. I will consider your point about residing in God outside the body.
Look at it from the manner that our life in the flesh determines what our seed will be and bring forth. Our "seed" being our body, which is literally put in the ground when we die in the flesh, as a seed is, and will eventually bring forth it's fruit (that which it becomes). Wouldn't you say this relates to "regeneration"? Yes, and there are other aspects of this type all shadowed by the Hebrews and their harvest, firstfruits and so on, nature itself. Being born again now and resurrected in the future. I am ready to leave this discussion alone for now and come back refreshed knowing we agree on more things than not. Thanks for your input, if nothing I am coming away from this seeing a lot more unity of spirit then I had before.

Looking forward to the next topic,
Joe

Edit: You are more than welcome to have the last word Eve ;)

Walstib
Nov 26th 2008, 12:00 AM
Holpcs2 , Literalist-Luke and Joztok

Thanks all for your input on the orrigional question. It was appreciated.

Joe

Teke
Nov 26th 2008, 02:57 PM
Hi Eve, Again I can see everything single thing can be said to be of God and upheld by God and belonging to God. I agree everything is relevant to the spiritual life. There is just something in this reasoning that does not sit well with me. We are the temple but not really because our body is upheld and belongs to God so God is the temple. We have faith but not really because God gives us everything it’s really God’s faith. We have freedom but not really because God gave us freedom so it is His freedom. We love God but not really because it is really His love in us.

I just think robots… I mean it is all true in a way but leaves something out. And I don’t have the words right now to express what that is. I will consider your point about residing in God outside the body.Yes, and there are other aspects of this type all shadowed by the Hebrews and their harvest, firstfruits and so on, nature itself. Being born again now and resurrected in the future. I am ready to leave this discussion alone for now and come back refreshed knowing we agree on more things than not. Thanks for your input, if nothing I am coming away from this seeing a lot more unity of spirit then I had before.

Looking forward to the next topic,
Joe

Edit: You are more than welcome to have the last word Eve ;)

Walstib, I don't need the last word, but I don't want you to go away from this with the thought of "robots".:P

Admittedly it is a hard subject, just as the Trinity is. I would just leave you with a couple Greek words to contemplate in your exploration of this.

In Greek the word "perienchoresis" (from 'perichoresis') which is also associated with Trinitarian theology, is a sharing or exchange. In the NT we see it in the word "koinonia" as well. I believe these Greek words, of which we have no English equivalent, will help you to better understand what I've tried to relate in this thread.
What you'll come to understand is that there is what we could term a relative anonymity, not in the sense of being unknown, but in the sense of unsingularity.

If you want to talk further or start a new thread, I'd be happy to participate.
I pray God brings you clarity and peace in your understanding.:hug:
Eve

Walstib
Nov 26th 2008, 10:58 PM
If the soul is immortal then why does it say in the Bible the soul that sins dies in Ezekiel 18:4?Points for my context. I don't see the soul is the same as the spirit. I don't consider immortal and eternal to be synonyms.

As I was speaking about the spirit, do you think soul and spirit are the same? Knowing this first would help me answer you better If I have not cleared things up already in my points.

Grace and peace,
Joe