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Partaker of Christ
Nov 14th 2008, 01:06 AM
John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind
John 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

So, what did Jesus mean by "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents"
Is Jesus saying that they are sinless?

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Is sin, only counted as sin, when we have knowledge of sin being sin?

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
John 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words and said unto him, Are we blind also?
John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.


Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

After they had recieved the knowledge of good and evil:

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Biastai
Nov 14th 2008, 01:37 AM
Two prominent views were held in those times on causes of sickness/disabilities. One was demon possession, and the other was retribution for sin. I believe Jesus was referring specifically to sin which resulted in illness in this passage. In other words, one is not able to deduce that a man is a sinner solely from the fact that he suffers from an ailment.

The remark, "Nor his parents," is evidence that the belief that sons were punished for their parents' sins persisted although Ezekiel contested that view in chapter 18 of his prophecies.

locboxx
Nov 14th 2008, 02:42 AM
I believe Jesus meant that the man didnt do a sin to gain this disability and neither did his parents. it wasnt a curse from some bad sin that some one commited

JesusReignsForever
Nov 14th 2008, 02:45 AM
John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind
John 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

So, what did Jesus mean by "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents"
Is Jesus saying that they are sinless?

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Is sin, only counted as sin, when we have knowledge of sin being sin?

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
John 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words and said unto him, Are we blind also?
John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.


Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

After they had recieved the knowledge of good and evil:

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.


hello there

Back in those times people believed that if a child was born blind it must of been because of His parents or a families sin or perhaps a demon as it was said above... Which was not the case in this guys life he was born blind for the Glory of God. Thats all Jesus meant.. ofcourse his parents sinned no human is without sin...hope this helps :)

Walstib
Nov 14th 2008, 03:25 AM
Is sin, only counted as sin, when we have knowledge of sin being sin?

I would say the answer is arguably yes. When talking in the context of what is "counted against us" and what our conscience holds as sinful. Sin is always sin but how it is reckoned to our account is not constant through time. Whether the scope of all time or as we grow in our own walk and mature in knowledge of sin.

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Rom 5:13 KJV)

Who are you that judges another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. But he will stand, for God is able to make him stand. One indeed esteems a day above another day; and another esteems every day alike. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind. He who regards the day regards it to the Lord; and he not regarding the day, does not regard it to the Lord. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, does not eat to the Lord, and gives God thanks.
(Rom 14:4-6 MKJV)

One man's sin is another man's praise. I also think of my Uncle who had Downs syndrome. Did his sin (all are guilty) ever go against his conscience? I say no and have a hard time seeing God count it against him at a just judgment.

Joe

Lamplighter
Nov 14th 2008, 03:51 AM
John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind
John 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

So, what did Jesus mean by "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents"
Is Jesus saying that they are sinless?


What did Jesus do for this man? He healed him of his blindness. The works of God were made manifest in him through the healing Christ gave him, just as John 9:3 says.

This has nothing to do with any person being sin free. Read the entire chapter.

theBelovedDisciple
Nov 14th 2008, 05:39 PM
I agree his blindness was not caused by some sin he committed or some sin his parents or relatives had done.. 'some generational' curse...

but he was born blind so that the 'works' of God could be manifest in him...... that the 'power' of God could be demonstrated..

Jesus went about 'doing good' as He was annointed.... He 'worked' cause He saw His Father working.. He did the 'works' of Him that sent Him.... He was not constrained by certain days, the types of people, or the hour of the day in which He worked....

I'm sure it was characteristic in those days or commonplace of those 'religious' leaders of his day, those Jews who 'claimed' to be the chosen of God... to go around pointing the fingers at so many.. and misjudging so many as to why they were 'sick', or in poverty, or downtrodden.... those 'pointing' the fingers saying .. its your 'sin' that has gotten you in this situation.. or 'he/she' is a sinner.. dont associate with them...

A strong point here is the fact that many will judge others when they are sick.. and falsely accuse them that its because of 'your' sin.. as to why your in that situation... or that because you are 'sick'.. your not really a Christian.. or you have some 'hidden' sin in your life....

One needs to take a look at oneself and realize his/her own wretchedness... take a personal review of oneself.. instead of going around and 'pointing' fingers or always questioning whether 'whose' 'sin' it was that caused that person to be in that situation....

The 'heart of the Law' is 'mercy'... God's heart is mercy... Jesus was demonstrating Mercy and Compassion on this man... who was born blind from His birth..

Many claiming to be 'sons of Abraham' during His day... had left this out .. they followed the Law to the Jot and Tittle.. but had left out Justice, Mercy and Good Faith...

Stage players or Hypocrites.. Jesus called them... He said their father was the devil and they do his deeds.. accusing falsely and murdering....

As was common place in those days... I can testify to the fact that this still takes place today.. One does not have to go very far to see that in full bloom...

Jesus Healed this man's 'physical' sight...

May Jesus touch many who have their physical sight.. but 'need' a touch from God as far as discerning and seeing spiritually...

Friend of I AM
Nov 14th 2008, 06:54 PM
John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind
John 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

So, what did Jesus mean by "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents"
Is Jesus saying that they are sinless?

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Is sin, only counted as sin, when we have knowledge of sin being sin?

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
John 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words and said unto him, Are we blind also?
John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.


Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

After they had recieved the knowledge of good and evil:

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Well I think it was commonly thought at one point that disabilities were brought on by some sort of sinful lifestyle by the parent or the child. The disciples actually asked at one point(can't remember the scenario) if a child had sinned in the womb. It was commonly thought by many during the time that a child who caused a lot of labor pains in the womb had sinned while inside of the Mother.

Jesus was simply asserting that the man himself had not sinned at any point to bring him to this condition, but instead that the man was made that way so God could demonstrate the very saving grace..work of God through the man's healing. This is very true of a lot of people today. Often times we think we are always in a situation because we have done something wrong, but many times we haven't done anything but God is just working us for his own purposes..and that is simply it.

Walstib
Nov 14th 2008, 07:16 PM
Am I the only one who thought the second question was more interesting to think about? :hmm:

Joe

Scruffy Kid
Nov 14th 2008, 09:23 PM
John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind
John 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

So, what did Jesus mean by "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents"
Is Jesus saying that they are sinless?Hi, Partaker!

About the verses you quoted

Perhaps a more modern translation might read something like this:

9:2 The disciples asked "Whose sin caused this man to be born blind -- his sin, or his parents' sin
9:3 Jesus replied "Not for either of those reasons: it happened so that the works of God could be shown through him!" Jesus, that is, is not saying that the man, or his parents, were free from all sin, but rather than it was not their sin that caused the man to be born blind.

A larger principle involved

However, I think that a larger principle is involved here. The question the disciples ask is a kind of primal human question. "Why am I so messed up? Is it my fault, or my parents' fault?" "Why is the world so messed up? Is it because we ourselves are bad, or can we blame it on Adam and Eve, and the devil?" The essential point in Jesus answer is not to show anyone sinless. The essential point He is making is that, however messed up things are, the main focus should be not "how did it get this way?" but "we can expect God to show His goodness in this situation!"

(In that respect, John 9, this passage about the man born blind -- and even the contrast it poses with John 5:1-15 -- has significant parallels to the passage Mark 7:56-8:30: about foods clean and unclean, and the Syrophonecian woman whose daughter was healed. Jesus' key principle there is "not what goes into a man, but what comes out of him, makes him unclean" -- or, I should say, clean.)

When Jesus says "Neither! It happened so that the works of God could be shown" (made manifest) Jesus is saying, in effect, that through this event, the man's lifelong blindness, sad as it is, something of greater value is being given him, and all of us, by God. God is using his blindness, and God's healing of that blindness, to show the man, and others, the goodness and mercy of God -- that is, to bring the man to the true light.

While it's true that "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Jesus uses this immediate situation to show -- to make manifest -- God's goodness and His glory. Through this physical handicap, Jesus is overcoming a more serious spiritual handicap, and in healing the man physically, conferring a far more important spiritual gift, knowledge of His own role as the Savior of the World. For the man bears costly witness to Christ -- suffering for his name, boldly -- and then comes back to Christ, and having met Him more fully, worships Him.

Christ uses lowly circumstances, and tragedy, to bring good into this world:
it's similar to the pattern of death and resurrection!

Christ's use of a very physical situation is, in a way, encapsulated by the very remarkable words of John's gospel in verses 5 and 6 -- perhaps one of the most startling pairs of verses in the entire Bible, and one of the most remarkable sets of a few words in anything that's ever been written:
Jesus said ... I am the light of the world. Then He spat on the ground, and made some mud with His spit, and annointed the man's eyes. Here -- again parallelling the early chapters of Mark's gospel! -- Jesus (fully man and fully God) wonderfully shows how He can use the most humble, even gross, human circumstances to show God's love and compassion, and then through that way of reaching out confer the highest of gifts, spiritual transformation!

The whole incident with the man born blind shows -- and this, I think, is the purport of Jesus's rejoinder to the disciples' question -- that God (especially when we go to Him in faith) will take human difficulty, loss, pain, and tragedy and turn them to far greater good, at least if we will let Him act.

This has important, life-giving practical implications for how we live with faith in God!

Thus, although this interpretation is going a bit beyond the passage itself, I think that this interaction teaches us how we ourselves can invite God to use even very bad circumstances -- by not brooding about what went wrong, nor who's to blame, but by trusting that even from these difficult and sad situations God can and will bring forth transformative good in people's lives. The start, the practical act of faith that we need to do to bring that dynamic into play, often is that of undertaking concrete actions to bring help to those who are in trouble. By acting with compassion to the blind, the prisoner, the sick, the destitute, the lonely, the rejected, and even the sinner we thus act in harmony with the essential redemptive purposes of God, the Lover and Savior of humankind. Once we do that, and as we trust in God, God may transform us, and those we help, and the whole situation powerfully, for the help of those in need of Him, and for His glory!

Partaker of Christ
Nov 14th 2008, 10:00 PM
Am I the only one who thought the second question was more interesting to think about? :hmm:

Joe

Hi Joe!

I hope not!

I am in the hope of drawing out, how we are judged and how we judge others who cannot (or should I say 'do not') see.

For I also was blind, but now I see (but dimly)

To the Pharisees:
John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

We 'all' are the cause of sin, but we 'all' are also the victims of sin.

Sin, rots, blinds, destroys and decays, not only the physical, but also the soul and spirit of a person, and the world. Perhaps that is why Jesus said love your enemy, and love the unlovable.

Just like your uncle who had Downs Syndrome was a victim of sin, what of those who are sick within?
We seem to be able to have compassion, for those with such physical disabilities, but can we have compassion for those who have disabilities we cannot see, but we see the affects of.

Is this why God:
"For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Rom 5:13 KJV)"

We judge and shout at the world 'You are naked, cover your nakedness', but the problem is that they do not see.

Luke 23:34a Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 14th 2008, 10:19 PM
Hi, Partaker!

About the verses you quoted

Perhaps a more modern translation might read something like this:

9:2 The disciples asked "Whose sin caused this man to be born blind -- his sin, or his parents' sin
9:3 Jesus replied "Not for either of those reasons: it happened so that the works of God could be shown through him!"
Jesus, that is, is not saying that the man, or his parents, were free from all sin, but rather than it was not their sin that caused the man to be born blind.

A larger principle involved

However, I think that a larger principle is involved here. The question the disciples ask is a kind of primal human question. "Why am I so messed up? Is it my fault, or my parents' fault?" "Why is the world so messed up? Is it because we ourselves are bad, or can we blame it on Adam and Eve, and the devil?" The essential point in Jesus answer is not to show anyone sinless. The essential point He is making is that, however messed up things are, the main focus should be not "how did it get this way?" but "we can expect God to show His goodness in this situation!"

(In that respect, John 9, this passage about the man born blind -- and even the contrast it poses with John 5:1-15 -- has significant parallels to the passage Mark 7:56-8:30: about foods clean and unclean, and the Syrophonecian woman whose daughter was healed. Jesus' key principle there is "not what goes into a man, but what comes out of him, makes him unclean" -- or, I should say, clean.)

When Jesus says "Neither! It happened so that the works of God could be shown" (made manifest) Jesus is saying, in effect, that through this event, the man's lifelong blindness, sad as it is, something of greater value is being given him, and all of us, by God. God is using his blindness, and God's healing of that blindness, to show the man, and others, the goodness and mercy of God -- that is, to bring the man to the true light.

While it's true that "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Jesus uses this immediate situation to show -- to make manifest -- God's goodness and His glory. Through this physical handicap, Jesus is overcoming a more serious spiritual handicap, and in healing the man physically, conferring a far more important spiritual gift, knowledge of His own role as the Savior of the World. For the man bears costly witness to Christ -- suffering for his name, boldly -- and then comes back to Christ, and having met Him more fully, worships Him.

Christ uses lowly circumstances, and tragedy, to bring good into this world:
it's similar to the pattern of death and resurrection!

Christ's use of a very physical situation is, in a way, encapsulated by the very remarkable words of John's gospel in verses 5 and 6 -- perhaps one of the most startling pairs of verses in the entire Bible, and one of the most remarkable sets of a few words in anything that's ever been written:

Jesus said ... I am the light of the world. Then He spat on the ground, and made some mud with His spit, and annointed the man's eyes.
Here -- again parallelling the early chapters of Mark's gospel! -- Jesus (fully man and fully God) wonderfully shows how He can use the most humble, even gross, human circumstances to show God's love and compassion, and then through that way of reaching out confer the highest of gifts, spiritual transformation!

The whole incident with the man born blind shows -- and this, I think, is the purport of Jesus's rejoinder to the disciples' question -- that God (especially when we go to Him in faith) will take human difficulty, loss, pain, and tragedy and turn them to far greater good, at least if we will let Him act.

This has important, life-giving practical implications for how we live with faith in God!

Thus, although this interpretation is going a bit beyond the passage itself, I think that this interaction teaches us how we ourselves can invite God to use even very bad circumstances -- by not brooding about what went wrong, nor who's to blame, but by trusting that even from these difficult and sad situations God can and will bring forth transformative good in people's lives. The start, the practical act of faith that we need to do to bring that dynamic into play, often is that of undertaking concrete actions to bring help to those who are in trouble. By acting with compassion to the blind, the prisoner, the sick, the destitute, the lonely, the rejected, and even the sinner we thus act in harmony with the essential redemptive purposes of God, the Lover and Savior of humankind. Once we do that, and as we trust in God, God may transform us, and those we help, and the whole situation powerfully, for the help of those in need of Him, and for His glory!

Hi Scruffy Kid!

Thanks for a Great post!!

Jesus came not to judge the world, but to save it.

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.