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AndrewBaptistFL
Nov 14th 2008, 02:16 PM
I was thinking about purchasing a crucifix to hang in my living room but wondered if that would fall under the catagory of a graven image. My intention isn't to pray to it or anything like that, I just think that seeing it as I walk around my house will remind me to think about God more. What are your thoughts?

9Marksfan
Nov 14th 2008, 02:48 PM
I was thinking about purchasing a crucifix to hang in my living room but wondered if that would fall under the catagory of a graven image. My intention isn't to pray to it or anything like that, I just think that seeing it as I walk around my house will remind me to think about God more. What are your thoughts?

If it has Christ on it, it is definitely idolatrous. Even if it doesn't, it will no doubt be clean and neat and "perfect" - in other words a misrepresentation of what the actual cross was really like. I would spend more time in the word - then you'll think of God more!

songladyjenn
Nov 14th 2008, 03:04 PM
If it has Christ on it, it is definitely idolatrous. <snip>

What makes something "idolatrous"

Is it the image itself or what we do with it?

According to the SMITH bible dictionary

IDOL [SMITH]

An image or anything used as an object of worship in place of the true God. Among the earliest objects of worship, regarded as symbols of deity, were the meteoric stones,which the ancients believed to have been images of the Gods sent down from heaven. From these they transferred their regard to rough unhewn blocks, to stone columns or pillars of wood, in which the divinity worshipped was supposed to dwell, and which were connected, like the sacred stone at Delphi, by being anointed with oil and crowned with wool on solemn days. Of the forms assumed by the idolatrous images we have not many traces in the Bible. Dagon, the fish-god of the Philistines, was a human figure terminating in a fish; and that the Syrian deities were represented in later times in a symbolical human shape we know for certainty. When the process of adorning the image was completed, it was placed in a temple or shrine appointed for it. Epist. (Jeremiah 12:1 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=jer&chapter=12&verse=1); Jeremiah 19:1 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=jer&chapter=19&verse=1)) ... Wisd. 13:15; (1Â Corinthians 18:10 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1co&chapter=&verse=)) From these temples the idols were sometimes carried in procession, Epist. (Jeremiah 4:26 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=jer&chapter=4&verse=26)) on festival days. Their priests were maintained from the idol treasury, and feasted upon the meats which were appointed for the idols? use. Bel and the Dragon 3,13. http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=Idol check the link for different dictionary entries

I would not think that the hanging of a cross or even a picture of Jesus would be considered idolatry unless of course they (the images) are the object of our worship.

Scruffy Kid
Nov 14th 2008, 04:00 PM
In my view, it's obviously not idolatrous.

1) Paul says "we preach Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." Thus, the crucifix would be a visual representation of the gospel.

2) Christian bookstores are full of pictures of Jesus. Churches often have pictures of Jesus. Why then would anyone suppose that there is something idolatrous about having a picture of Jesus on your wall? If a picture of Jesus, why would a picture of one aspect of Jesus' life be any more problematic than a picture of any other part of Jesus' life.

3) Christians through the ages have had pictures of Jesus. This included the churches of the reformers. Pictures, or sculptures, of Jesus -- of the last supper, the garden of gethsemane, of the crucifixion -- seem utterly normal.

4) The OT tells the artificers of the temple to include various carvings, of fruit, of various animals, and so on. Thus, merely the creation of an image is not forbidden by the Bible -- only worshipping it is.

theBelovedDisciple
Nov 14th 2008, 04:16 PM
Dig into 1 Corinthians 10 and see what Paul declares and reveals as the mystery to 'idol' worship... is an idol anything? is it an inanimate object? is it a car? a building? is it a job,

is it a person????

When you begin to digest and word study that in 1 Corinthians.. you'll begin to see the correlation between what an idol is and the reality of 'devils'... and 'devil worship'...

how does one know what a devil looks like? can one discern devil worship... where do devils abide? do they abide in humans? can they possess humans?

Jesus Christ brought to 'light' the reality of the supernatural and that the Kingdom of Heaven 'was at hand'... He did this and demonstrated this by overpowering and commanding 'devil's.. taking authority over them... casting them out and driving them away.. as did His disciples.. Paul goes on to reveal this mystery of idols and idolatry and who is behind it... devils....

An inanimate object is just that.. lifeless... such as a car, a piece of wood made out to look like a crucifix.. even a painting... they are inanimate...

Idolatry is devil worship... and where do devils abide and who do they possess? they do this to the 'unsaved'.. the wicked.. they also abide and control false teachers, false prophets, false pastors... those 'weeds' Satan has 'sown' amongst the wheat.....

I would be more concerned over whom I worship on a daily basis.. Do you worship man? do you worship your boss? do you worship some person on Tv or Hollywood? do you find yourself worshipping another person who calles himself/herself a Christian? This you have to ask yourself.....and when its revealed to you you'll find that its not the person that has caused you to 'worship' .. him/her.. but a devilish influence or spirit... this beloved is what Idol worship is all about... inanimate ojects are just that....inanimate...

The 'light of the body is the eye'... the 'eyes' will give you discernment as to who is 'in the house'.. the body...

There is Only One True and Living God to worship and that is Jesus the Christ.. God manifest in the flesh.....

Thou shalt have 'no other Gods' (devils) before me...

I encourage you strongly to dig into this in 1Cor.. and understand this mystery that has been hid since the foundation of the world but brought to light thru the power of the Gospel and the Lord Jesus Christ...

amen

and Blessed Be His Name who is coming with Power and Glory!

9Marksfan
Nov 15th 2008, 06:01 PM
What makes something "idolatrous"

Is it the image itself or what we do with it?

According to the SMITH bible dictionary
http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=Idol check the link for different dictionary entries

I would not think that the hanging of a cross or even a picture of Jesus would be considered idolatry unless of course they (the images) are the object of our worship.

This should put an end to the discussion:-

You shall not make yourself a carved image of anything in heaven above... Ex 20:4a NKJV

The very making of an idol is prohibited. The practical implication is clear - it's bound to be an imperfect representation and unworthy of the glory of Christ.

9Marksfan
Nov 15th 2008, 06:09 PM
In my view, it's obviously not idolatrous.

1) Paul says "we preach Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." Thus, the crucifix would be a visual representation of the gospel.

The only visible representations of the gospel authorised in the NT are baptsim and the Lord's supper.


2) Christian bookstores are full of pictures of Jesus.

Only RCC ones in my experience....


Churches often have pictures of Jesus.

Again, RCC or very High Anglican or Orthodox churches. Not truly Reformed churches.


Why then would anyone suppose that there is something idolatrous about having a picture of Jesus on your wall?

Because Ex 20:4 prohibits it.


If a picture of Jesus, why would a picture of one aspect of Jesus' life be any more problematic than a picture of any other part of Jesus' life.

Anything that is a graven image of Him is idolatrous because it is bound to be a misrepresentation.


3) Christians through the ages have had pictures of Jesus.

No.


This included the churches of the reformers.

Not truly Reformed churches - they rightly banned such idolatry - nowadays you don't find any images of Jesus in mainstream Protestant churches.


Pictures, or sculptures, of Jesus -- of the last supper, the garden of gethsemane, of the crucifixion -- seem utterly normal.

To an idolatous mind, undoubtedly, but not to someone who wants to follow what Scripture teaches.


4) The OT tells the artificers of the temple to include various carvings, of fruit, of various animals, and so on. Thus, merely the creation of an image is not forbidden by the Bible -- only worshipping it is.

These things were sanctioned by God under the Old Covenant- images of things in Heaven were never sanctioned under it, nor are they under the New.

crossnote
Nov 16th 2008, 06:18 AM
Who can read the Gospels without forming a 'picture' of Jesus in ones mind? Especially of Him hanging bloody, whipped to shreds, beaten and bruised...all for our sins...how sweet a picture. Anyhow the ACLU would just love to have you remove anything that would remind others of God.
I don't wear a crucifix now but if ever there becomes a law against wearing such, I will dawn a 10" er around my neck.

Back2Front
Nov 16th 2008, 07:07 AM
I was thinking about purchasing a crucifix to hang in my living room but wondered if that would fall under the catagory of a graven image. My intention isn't to pray to it or anything like that, I just think that seeing it as I walk around my house will remind me to think about God more. What are your thoughts?

It's an awesome place in ones walk to question these things. The reason I say this is that it's a direct reflection of ones desire to please God in all one does in their life. The only place that can come from is the Holy Spirit, and a sure sign that he is speaking to your conscience, and is a definite sign of a maturity that is causing you to listen and respond.

However, to ask others in a public forum what they think on this specific matter, is something I would look at and examine, as it has the potential to be a stumbling block and Idol worship in itself.

Regarding that, I will point you to some very specific scriptures that you will have to look up on your own if you're interested. Here they are:

Leviticus 19:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=19&verse=14&version=31&context=verse)
Ezekiel 14:2-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=33&chapter=14&verse=2&end_verse=4&version=31&context=context)
Matthew 23:8-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023:8-12;&version=31;)

Here are some regarding weaker issues, and the potential of what can occur in going to others on these matters:

Colossians 2:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:16;&version=31;)
2 Timothy 4:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%204:3-4;&version=31;)
Romans 14:1-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:1-8;&version=31;)
1 Corinthians 8:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=8&verse=8&end_verse=10&version=31&context=context)

Now regarding Idols specifically: The best advice I can give you is to look at what scripture says specifically about how God from his very mouth defines an Idol, and what God himself sees as being those Idols. Then allow that Spirit that is speaking to you, convict you as to what the right answer is. The answer is definitely there, but I'm going to make you research those on your own.

;)

Literalist-Luke
Nov 16th 2008, 09:33 AM
I guess the Southern Baptist church I grew up in was way into idolatry then, because I remember portraits of Jesus quite vividly. My non-denominational church has one hanging in the main entry foyer.

9Marksfan is certainly entitled to his opinion, but the idea behind idolatry is the worship of the image in opposition to the worship of the one true God. Nobody in my churches have ever bowed down to those portraits and prayed to the canvas and frame to save them from their sins.

andrew_no_one, unless you're planning on worshiping that object that's going to be hanging around your neck, there's nothing wrong with it, just so long as you realize that it is only a symbol. So long as you view it as nothing more than a symbol of the real cross that the real Jesus hung on, then you're good to go. :thumbsup:

Rullion Green
Nov 16th 2008, 10:14 AM
Listening to opinions and thoughts is all well and good but when it comes to a direct command such as the second commandment...what else is there to say ? you either obay it or not

It makes no difference wheather a church you grew up in had pictures or not, i grew up in a catholich church and there was hardly any room for the people because of all the statues and pictures ( cheap joke ) but you get the point.

what is your bottom line ? if it's scripture then follow scripture if it's men then follow men, as for me you i'll echo the great man Joshua and follow the Lord which has been revealed to us through scripture.

Zack702
Nov 16th 2008, 10:54 AM
I don't think it is a idol unless you worship it as a God.
Almost everyone these days believes in one God who created everything. We know that God is a spiritual God.
And God gave to us his blessings and the greatest of them being spiritual.

Back in ancient times people believed in multiple Gods idols and forces of nature and forces of dominion. Thats idol worshiping when you believe in false Gods and bow down to egyptian idols and mythological gods.

Rullion Green
Nov 16th 2008, 11:42 AM
I don't think it is a idol unless you worship it as a God.
Almost everyone these days believes in one God who created everything. We know that God is a spiritual God.
And God gave to us his blessings and the greatest of them being spiritual.

Back in ancient times people believed in multiple Gods idols and forces of nature and forces of dominion. Thats idol worshiping when you believe in false Gods and bow down to egyptian idols and mythological gods.

Yes thats part of the commandment " do not bow down and worship them " but " do not make any carved or graven image for yourself " is also there. I suppose you could argue that it wasn't me who made it but does it matter who made it.

I totaly understand and respect the sentiment which the opener has made about wanting to show his faith, but this can be done in a more powerful way by living it, i see people on tv all the time wearing a cross i seen one the other day on eggheads (Uk tv quiz) and a simple question about who was barabus came up and she had a look of complete confusion on her face while she sported a cross ? got it wrong btw

Is not showing your faith by living it so that people say " he's different" a better way to show faith, rather than putting a bit of gold round your neck ?

Zack702
Nov 16th 2008, 12:36 PM
Yes thats part of the commandment " do not bow down and worship them " but " do not make any carved or graven image for yourself " is also there. I suppose you could argue that it wasn't me who made it but does it matter who made it.

I totaly understand and respect the sentiment which the opener has made about wanting to show his faith, but this can be done in a more powerful way by living it, i see people on tv all the time wearing a cross i seen one the other day on eggheads (Uk tv quiz) and a simple question about who was barabus came up and she had a look of complete confusion on her face while she sported a cross ? got it wrong btw

Is not showing your faith by living it so that people say " he's different" a better way to show faith, rather than putting a bit of gold round your neck ?

I do agree with you on that.

Mysteryman
Nov 16th 2008, 12:57 PM
I was thinking about purchasing a crucifix to hang in my living room but wondered if that would fall under the catagory of a graven image. My intention isn't to pray to it or anything like that, I just think that seeing it as I walk around my house will remind me to think about God more. What are your thoughts?

We are to look at the things that are "unseen", the spiritual.

Walk by faith and not by sight.

His resurrection is what you are to "look" at.

Love IN Christ - M M

songladyjenn
Nov 16th 2008, 05:59 PM
Since when are Christians required to follow the letter of the law? Why would you place a yoke upon them?

An idol does not need to be something made with your hands.

And idol could be your car, your house, your wife, your husband.....an idol is ANYTHING that takes away from the worship of God.

So Andrew if hanging a cross on the wall of your home drives you to worship the one true God then by all means hang one up. If having an image of Christ (like the one we placed in my sons room of Christ in the garden praying to the Father) drives you to worship God by all means hang one up.

If having these items in your home makes the unbeliever come into your house and ask you about your faith great!

On the other hand, if another Christian feels that if they had a cross or an painting of Christ on their wall it would be wrong, then they should NOT put them up...

let each person be convinced in their own minds, we have liberty. We are not 'Jewish' the law was given to them not us. We have grace Praise God!

Vhayes
Nov 16th 2008, 06:13 PM
To the original poster -

If you think a crucifix would serve as a reminder of what the Lord Jesus has done for you, then I see nothing wrong with it.

If you make an altar or pray TO the crucifix, then it's a problem and has become a graven image or an idol.

I have photos of my family members who are dead sitting here and there in my house. They serve as reminder of those people and the relationship we had, the things we did together, how they impacted my life. I certainly don't "pray" to them, I don't think the photo "is" them, if that makes any sense.

Do as your heart dictates - if you leads you closer to Christ, it's good. If at some point it becomes a focus rather than a tool for you to focus on Christ, then take it down.

Just my thoughts -
V

Back2Front
Nov 16th 2008, 07:08 PM
Preface:

I am asking questions to you here in the love of Christ as it has been shared and asked of me. I know some questions and statements maybe sound a little antagonostic, but my intent is not to rise anger in you, yet to cause you to see my perspective. And please know I understand yours.

So I ask you not to be offended by the questions I am asking you or the way I am asking you. I know it is not the quintessential approach, but given this preface, hopefully effective at the cost of possible embarrassment to myself and my beliefs.

So sticking my neck out:


Since when are Christians required to follow the letter of the law?

True, but since when are they not required to consult it for an answer?


Why would you place a yoke upon them?

Who is placing a Yolk? He already has the yolk of indecision. Everyone here so far just seems to be quoting, and leading the OP to scripture, and sharing how that scripture has convicted them in their own minds. Something the OP has asked them to do. Yet it does seem to be a stumbling block for some doesn't it?


An idol does not need to be something made with your hands.

And idol could be your car, your house, your wife, your husband.....an idol is ANYTHING that takes away from the worship of God.

Very very very true. Idol worship always starts with presumption.


So Andrew if hanging a cross on the wall of your home drives you to worship the one true God then by all means hang one up.

Why is it that you think or want him to think that your permission is even relevant?


If having an image of Christ (like the one we placed in my sons room of Christ in the garden praying to the Father) drives you to worship God by all means hang one up.

Ah yes. I see. So do you think that if more do as you do, that makes it more right and you will be able to convince God due to the numbers of people doing it?


If having these items in your home makes the unbeliever come into your house and ask you about your faith great!

So having these items causes unbelievers to come to ones home and ask about faith? If that did happen, wouldn't the unbeliever be more prone to see that your faith requires pictures and carved images to have it? Wouldn't the unbeliever ask themselves why your son, you, and the creation around him/her wouldn't be sufficient?


On the other hand, if another Christian feels that if they had a cross or an painting of Christ on their wall it would be wrong, then they should NOT put them up...

So what's right for you may not be what's right for others, and thats OK? Sounds pretty relativistic. Are you saying that what's right or wrong is in the eye of the beholder? Because from what your teaching here, I can logically deduce that I don't even need the bible at all?


let each person be convinced in their own minds, we have liberty.

So your definition of liberty is that it's Gods responsibility to convince us, and until he does, we can do as we wish? Is that the sign and the fruits of one who believes, and is thankful for the grace God gave us?


We are not 'Jewish' the law was given to them not us. We have grace Praise God!

So is that grace is a license not to seek the truth about that grace? The truth of how it comes to us and how we reflect it?

In the love and example of Christ as he lived his life according to the Law.

Back2Front
Nov 16th 2008, 07:14 PM
To the original poster -

If you think a crucifix would serve as a reminder of what the Lord Jesus has done for you, then I see nothing wrong with it.

Why would he need that?


If you make an altar or pray TO the crucifix, then it's a problem and has become a graven image or an idol.

What defines an alter?


I have photos of my family members who are dead sitting here and there in my house. They serve as reminder of those people and the relationship we had, the things we did together, how they impacted my life. I certainly don't "pray" to them, I don't think the photo "is" them, if that makes any sense.

It makes perfect sense. But isn't there a difference between the people who once were in our lives, and the God who currently is?


Do as your heart dictates - if you leads you closer to Christ, it's good.

How would he know if it is leading him closer to Christ if he is doing what his heart dictates?


If at some point it becomes a focus rather than a tool for you to focus on Christ, then take it down.

Just my thoughts -
V

Why would one tempt God in the first place?

looking4jesus
Nov 16th 2008, 07:21 PM
I was thinking about purchasing a crucifix to hang in my living room but wondered if that would fall under the catagory of a graven image. My intention isn't to pray to it or anything like that, I just think that seeing it as I walk around my house will remind me to think about God more. What are your thoughts?

Just as a symbol not to worship but as rememberence their is nothing wrong with it at all. Take a look at al the avatars here on this board would you call them idols. I would not. When people get hevey into things like this it becomes legalllism.. which is not in line with Gods word at all.
Just the other day at night I saw a big semi truck and on the front grill in small red lights he had the sign of the cross. I thought very cool he is simply witnessing to others that the driver is a Christian.
God Bless
Randy

Back2Front
Nov 16th 2008, 07:35 PM
Just as a symbol not to worship but as rememberence their is nothing wrong with it at all.

Is not God specific as to how he wants to be remembered? Why would one need a symbol created by human hands? Is not the creation of God sufficient?


Take a look at al the avatars here on this board would you call them idols.

I would. But that is not a can of worms I don't have the authority or the strength to take on at this point. So for the sake of peace and the ability to stay here and share, I don't open that can of worms and just reluctantly participate by using one myself. Thankfully I have a savior that I hope will cover me where I fall short. And perhaps this is the day for me to remove it, and go Avatarless. I will have to pray about that. Thank you.


I would not. When people get hevey into things like this it becomes legalllism.. which is not in line with Gods word at all.

Legalism is not in line with Gods word you are correct. But it would be presumptuous to assume your understanding of legalism as the correct one wouldn't it? Isn't that legalism in and of itself.


Just the other day at night I saw a big semi truck and on the front grill in small red lights he had the sign of the cross. I thought very cool he is simply witnessing to others that the driver is a Christian.
God Bless
Randy

Sorry to come across as splitting hairs here, but this is pretty important. Aren't you assuming about that driver? Isn't it possible he is a Satanist encouraging Idol worship?

looking4jesus
Nov 16th 2008, 07:44 PM
Is not God specific as to how he wants to be remembered? Why would one need a symbol created by human hands? Is not the creation of God sufficient?



I would. But that is not a can of worms I don't have the authority or the strength to take on at this point. So for the sake of peace and the ability to stay here and share, I don't open that can of worms and just reluctantly participate by using one myself. Thankfully I have a savior that I hope will cover me where I fall short. And perhaps this is the day for me to remove it, and go Avatarless. I will have to pray about that. Thank you.



Legalism is not in line with Gods word you are correct. But it would be presumptuous to assume your understanding of legalism as the correct one wouldn't it? Isn't that legalism in and of itself.



Sorry to come across as splitting hairs here, but this is pretty important. Aren't you assuming about that driver? Isn't it possible he is a Satanist encouraging Idol worship?

Well anything is possible but you meaning everyone needs to be careful wit this. JW, Mormans etc and many other non christan cults use such legalism to expand their beliefs and church. I see nothing wrong as a symbol of what Jesus Christ did for us. You never know who will see that cross a non believer or maybe even yourself when your mind is not on God at all but on something sinful and you look up and it brings you back to center on Jesus.

You need to understand there is a world of differience between a actual idol and a symbol. Once the ming get scaught into this kind of thinking it never stops, you have Christian flags. you have the American flag as a symbol of freedom but it is not worshiped. JW for example will never wear a cross around their necks but they will and do wear a stake because in the orginal greek the word is a tree not a cross so you see this whole issue can get out of hand very quickly.
God Bless
Randy

Back2Front
Nov 16th 2008, 08:03 PM
Well anything is possible but you meaning everyone needs to be careful wit this. JW, Mormans etc and many other non christan cults use such legalism to expand their beliefs and church. I see nothing wrong as a symbol of what Jesus Christ did for us. You never know who will see that cross a non believer or maybe even yourself when your mind is not on God at all but on something sinful and you look up and it brings you back to center on Jesus.

But are these symbols the proper launchpad to remember Christ by as he says in his word? When ones mind is not on God, Is a symbol made of human hands the proper way to get ones mind back on God according to scripture?


You need to understand there is a world of differience between a actual idol and a symbol.

I apologize for the harsh soundingness of this rebuke, but no I don't need to understand that. Your plea for my need of that understanding is a stumbling block to me, and I have a responsibility to the Spirit in me to make you aware of that. Yet I do understand why you want me to see it this way.


Once the ming get scaught into this kind of thinking it never stops, you have Christian flags. you have the American flag as a symbol of freedom but it is not worshiped. JW for example will never wear a cross around their necks but they will and do wear a stake because in the orginal greek the word is a tree not a cross so you see this whole issue can get out of hand very quickly.
God Bless
Randy

You are correct, and I am trying to share with you where the roots of Idol worship are found. From this above paragraph, you seem to have the beginnings of a grasp on that.

With that said I hope we can continue to share in the peace and love of Christs example as he obeyed and followed his own law, and commanded us to follow the same.

looking4jesus
Nov 16th 2008, 08:14 PM
But are these symbols the proper launchpad to remember Christ by as he says in his word? When ones mind is not on God, Is a symbol made of human hands the proper way to get ones mind back on God according to scripture?



I apologize for the harsh soundingness of this rebuke, but no I don't need to understand that. Your plea for my need of that understanding is a stumbling block to me, and I have a responsibility to the Spirit in me to make you aware of that. Yet I do understand why you want me to see it this way.



You are correct, and I am trying to share with you where the roots of Idol worship are found. From this above paragraph, you seem to have the beginnings of a grasp on that.

With that said I hope we can continue to share in the peace and love of Christs example as he obeyed and followed his own law, and commanded us to follow the same.

But what you are not getting with respect is the vast differince from a symbol and a idol that is worshiped/
Example for myself and many others a cross on a wall would be looked at for a second and then dismissed in our minds as just that but with you it would be carried in your mind throughout the day so in a sense you are very much attached and that what worship is attachement. That is the reason ?I asked you to really see the di=ffereince because once you plant something like this in your mind it will cause much more hinderence than good because you cannot stop carring the thought that a fellow Christina has a crosss hanging somewhere. This is Satan games of accusing the brothers and sisters in Jesus Chrisit o their mind can stay on petty things and creat a burden IMO
God Bless
Randy

Back2Front
Nov 16th 2008, 08:28 PM
But what you are not getting with respect is the vast differince from a symbol and a idol that is worshiped/
Example for myself and many others a cross on a wall would be looked at for a second and then dismissed in our minds as just that but with you it would be carried in your mind throughout the day so in a sense you are very much attached and that what worship is attachement. That is the reason ?I asked you to really see the di=ffereince because once you plant something like this in your mind it will cause much more hinderence than good because you cannot stop carring the thought that a fellow Christina has a crosss hanging somewhere. This is Satan games of accusing the brothers and sisters in Jesus Chrisit o their mind can stay on petty things and creat a burden IMO
God Bless
Randy

Satan's Lies always start in the semantics. The enforcement and furthering of the lie is to brush things off as petty semantics. The other part of the lie is to create division between Gods people when discussing what he wants us to brush off as semantics.

So with that, I am done on this topic for now, and am removing it from my subscriptions and auto email.

May the lord be with you and all of his blessings be upon you and all of those who read and write in this thread.

looking4jesus
Nov 16th 2008, 10:02 PM
Satan's Lies always start in the semantics. The enforcement and furthering of the lie is to brush things off as petty semantics. The other part of the lie is to create division between Gods people when discussing what he wants us to brush off as semantics.

So with that, I am done on this topic for now, and am removing it from my subscriptions and auto email.

May the lord be with you and all of his blessings be upon you and all of those who read and write in this thread.
Amen :ppAmen
God Bless you
Randy

songladyjenn
Nov 17th 2008, 06:41 PM
True, but since when are they not required to consult it for an answer?

Where are Christians required to look to the law for answers? The answers have never been in the law. The answer is Christ as I'm sure you would agree.



Who is placing a Yolk? He already has the yolk of indecision. Everyone here so far just seems to be quoting, and leading the OP to scripture, and sharing how that scripture has convicted them in their own minds. Something the OP has asked them to do. Yet it does seem to be a stumbling block for some doesn't it?You are asking him to conform to the law, Paul talks about this and is very clear the law can not save anyone, we are not required to follow the letter of the law but the Spirit of the law, and that would be 1) Love God and 2) Love your neighbor. Leading the OP to scripture is the right the to do especially considering that this is the Bible Chat forum ;)




Very very very true. Idol worship always starts with presumption.So does a lot of things.



Why is it that you think or want him to think that your permission is even relevant?No one in this thread, as far as I can tell, is giving their 'permission' or that this 'permission' is even warranted. What we have attempted to show, using the scriptures is that having a picture of Christ or a cross hanging in your house is NOT considered and idol nor is it idol worship.


Ah yes. I see. So do you think that if more do as you do, that makes it more right and you will be able to convince God due to the numbers of people doing it?Where has anyone stated that? No one here is attempting to convince God of anything. You are reading things that just aren't there. The OP asked if hanging a cross in his home was considered idol worship. The answer is NO it is not.


So having these items causes unbelievers to come to ones home and ask about faith? If that did happen, wouldn't the unbeliever be more prone to see that your faith requires pictures and carved images to have it? Wouldn't the unbeliever ask themselves why your son, you, and the creation around him/her wouldn't be sufficient?No they would not. The question could be asked "what does that cross mean to you?" or "why do you have a cross hanging in your living room?" both these questions can lead to further discussion on what Christ did for them when he suffered and died for those that would come to him. My faith does not require pictures or carved images or anything of the sort you just assume that if someone has something hanging up that their faith requires it. A false assumption I may add.


So what's right for you may not be what's right for others, and thats OK? Sounds pretty relativistic. Are you saying that what's right or wrong is in the eye of the beholder? Because from what your teaching here, I can logically deduce that I don't even need the bible at all? That would entirely depend on the topic being discussed. It is not an all encompassing thing. On another board they have written the following:

How We Believe~
1. In the essentials we have unity (Eph 4:3-6 (http://www.bible.org/netbible2/index.php?book=eph&chapter=4&verse=4&submit=Lookup+Verse))
2. In the non-essentials we have diversity (Rom 14:1-22 (http://www.bible.org/netbible2/index.php?header=&book=rom&chapter=14))
3. In all things charity (1 Cor 13:2 (http://www.bible.org/netbible2/index.php?book=1co&chapter=13&verse=2))


This to me would fall under the diversity category. in 1 Cor 8 it talks about food sacrificed to idols, some do not understand that food is food sacrificed to idols or not. However if someone feels that eating foods that were sacrificed to idol is wrong then to them it is wrong. otoh if someone knows of the liberty in Christ and they know that food is food they are free to eat it.




So your definition of liberty is that it's Gods responsibility to convince us, and until he does, we can do as we wish? Is that the sign and the fruits of one who believes, and is thankful for the grace God gave us?No liberty is defined in the scriptures again see 1 Cor


So is that grace is a license not to seek the truth about that grace? The truth of how it comes to us and how we reflect it?Grace is unearned kindness. If you attempt to follow ANY of the 'law' yet fail in 1 part you are guilty of breaking all the law. Like I said we are given 2 commandments, love God and love your neighbor. :D The truth and the true way to holiness has NEVER been found in the law this truth is found solely in and through Christ :D


In the love and example of Christ as he lived his life according to the Law.The law was not fulfilled until AFTER the cross.

Hopefully this helps. Gotta get back to class now lunch is almost over and we do History after lunch ;)

Br. Barnabas
Nov 18th 2008, 03:10 PM
As a high church Anglican I say go for it. In my tradition we usually use a crucifix or a celitic cross as well as many other types of crosses. They us remember the death and glourious resurrection of our Lord. So if having a crucifix or cross hanging in your house helps you to remember the Lord then I say go for it. I have a few crucifixes and crosses and many icons hanging throught my apartment. They help me to be aware of God's presence around me at all times. Besides that I like the way the icons look and would rather have them than paintings of people or things.

AndrewBaptistFL
Nov 18th 2008, 03:46 PM
Thank you all for the advice. I greatly appreciate it.