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Eaglenester
Nov 15th 2008, 04:36 PM
Why do christians, churches and pastors hold to and perpetuate a myth that runs contrary to Scripture.

I'm talking about the 3 wise men visiting the baby Messiah at the manger in Bethlehem?

When you mix error with truth - you end up with error, which is usless or even dangerous.

Walstib
Nov 15th 2008, 05:10 PM
Do you mean the myth is number of the men or the place and time they saw Jesus? Both?

A simple answer either way would be that the director of the first nativity play thought too many sheppards would be boring so they threw a few wise men in there and it stuck. ;)

Peace,

Joe

Edit: I know your main point is not one of humor and quite serious, I don't really know why.. it is strange.

Eaglenester
Nov 15th 2008, 05:18 PM
Do you mean the myth is number of the men or the place and time they saw Jesus? Both?

A simple answer either way would be that the directory of the first nativity play thought too many sheppards would be boring so they threw a few wise men in there and it stuck. ;)

Peace,

Joe

Edit: I know your main point is not one of humor and quite serious, I don't really know why.. it is strange.

Just them being at the manger, the magi visited the young child Messiah at His house in Nazareth.

When I learned of this a few years ago, I asked the pastor of the "church" I was attending at the time about it.

He said he realized the wise men at the manger wasn't true, but it made for a "nice story" :confused

diffangle
Nov 15th 2008, 08:16 PM
He said he realized the wise men at the manger wasn't true, but it made for a "nice story" :confused

Sounds like the time I emailed the associate pastor of the church I used to go to after he gave a sermon that started out with how Biblically-based christmas was and then proceeded to give the sermon without an ounce of Scripture to back up that lie... I asked him if he knew the origin of the holiday and he said he knew it was a pagan sun worship day but that he goes along with it in order to get people into church. :o :(

Walstib
Nov 15th 2008, 08:38 PM
Just them being at the manger, the magi visited the young child Messiah at His house in Nazareth.

Careful... are you sure it was Nazareth. Don't want to start some more "myths" now. ;)

Peace,

Joe

Eaglenester
Nov 15th 2008, 09:56 PM
Careful... are you sure it was Nazareth. Don't want to start some more "myths" now. ;)

Peace,

Joe


The shepherds went back, glorifying and praising God for all that they had heard and seen, just as had been told them.
And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Yahushua, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.
And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to Yahweh


(Luke 2:20-22)



When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.

(Luke 2:39)



After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him.
Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.
Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of Yahweh appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him."
So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt.


(Matthew 2:11-14)



Timeline:

Born in Bethlehem

After 8 days, went to Jerusalem (a very short distance)

Went back home to Nazereth

Visited by the Magi.

Left that night for Egypt.

Walstib
Nov 15th 2008, 10:19 PM
I can see your logic and agree with you. I missed it. Thanks.

Peace,

Joe

maasive10
Nov 15th 2008, 10:21 PM
That is the reason I do not have a nativity scene - actually I don't know many people in my circle who do. I am not sure where it originated - I am sure someone on the board does - I always associate it with Catholicism - they seem to like their imagery. No offense intended.
Cheers

EarlyCall
Nov 15th 2008, 10:27 PM
Just them being at the manger, the magi visited the young child Messiah at His house in Nazareth.

When I learned of this a few years ago, I asked the pastor of the "church" I was attending at the time about it.

He said he realized the wise men at the manger wasn't true, but it made for a "nice story" :confused

Yea, I agree. I'd prefer the truth to a nice story anytime. We need to handle the word of God very carefully. We can always work with the truth, it's a straight line and ends in truth but any deviation from it leads down another path that ends up somewhere off the mark. And then that is where we find ourselves; off the mark.

Yukerboy
Nov 15th 2008, 10:40 PM
I will agree that there is no mention of three wise men and that the magi went to the house where Jesus was. However, I can't find where the Bible states the location of this house except that "Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.".

Then, he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity.

Bethlehem is south of Jerusalem, and Nazareth to the north.

Tanya~
Nov 15th 2008, 10:40 PM
They may actually have been in a house in Bethlehem when the Magi came to see Jesus, if you follow the narrative given in Matthew instead of switching from Luke to Matthew. Read all of Matthew chapter 2. It shows that Joseph settled his family in Nazareth after they returned from Egypt. Luke doesn't mention the flight to Egypt or the Magi at all.

Based on Matthew's account, it is not unreasonable to understand the Magi finding Jesus in a house in Bethlehem. It is true that the Magi didn't arrive on the night of his birth along with the Shepherds to see Him in the manger -- that's just traditional and inaccurate like many other aspects of Christmas.

livingwaters
Nov 15th 2008, 10:41 PM
Christian nativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_Jesus) scenes, in two dimensions (drawings, paintings, icons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icon), etc.) or three (sculpture or other three-dimensional crafts), usually show Jesus in a manger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manger), Joseph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Joseph) and Mary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary,_the_mother_of_Jesus) in a barn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barn_(building)), stable or cave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave) intended to accommodate farm animals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal). A donkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey) and an ox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ox) accompany them; besides the necessity of animals for a manger, this is an allusion to Isaiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah): "the ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib; but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider" (Is. 1:3). The ox and donkey represent the people of Israel and the Gentiles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentiles) respectively in such depictions. The scene sometimes includes the Magi or Three Wise Men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Wise_Men) (with or without a camel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel)), shepherds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd) and sheep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep), angels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel), and the Star of Bethlehem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem). The traditional scenes that show the shepherds and Magi together combine two different events in the Gospels: (1) the shepherds are informed by angels that "for to you is born this day in the city of David, a Savior who is Christ the Lord" (Matthew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew) 2:10-11). (2) "When [the Magi] saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy; and going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him" (Luke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Luke) 2:11)

Eaglenester
Nov 15th 2008, 10:50 PM
They may actually have been in a house in Bethlehem when the Magi came to see Jesus, if you follow the narrative given in Matthew instead of switching from Luke to Matthew. Read all of Matthew chapter 2. It shows that Joseph settled his family in Nazareth after they returned from Egypt. Luke doesn't mention the flight to Egypt or the Magi at all.

Based on Matthew's account, it is not unreasonable to understand the Magi finding Jesus in a house in Bethlehem. It is true that the Magi didn't arrive on the night of his birth along with the Shepherds to see Him in the manger -- that's just traditional and inaccurate like many other aspects of Christmas.

But you can't ignore Luke.

It says they were in Bethlehem 8 days, then they went to Jerusalem, then they went to their house in Nazareth.
Matthew says the night following the Magi's visit, they left for Egypt.

NO WAY the Magi could have visited Messiah in Bethlehem.

If you try to hold to the Magi visiting the baby in Bethlehem, then how do you put Messiah going to Jerusalem, then going to Nazareth.
DOES NOT WORK.
Runs contrary to Scripture.

The Parson
Nov 15th 2008, 10:53 PM
Just curious... Where exactly does it say there were three wise men? Haven't found that part yet.

Tanya~
Nov 15th 2008, 11:02 PM
But you can't ignore Luke.

It says they were in Bethlehem 8 days, then they went to Jerusalem, then they went to their house in Nazareth.
Matthew says the night following the Magi's visit, they left for Egypt.

I'm not ignoring Luke, but just making the point that we cannot dogmatically say the Magi met Jesus in Nazareth and not Bethlehem. Based on Matthew, they went to find Him in Bethlehem and there is no mention of Nazareth until after they returned from Egypt.


NO WAY the Magi could have visited Messiah in Bethlehem.

If you try to hold to the Magi visiting the baby in Bethlehem, then how do you put Messiah going to Jerusalem, then going to Nazareth.
DOES NOT WORK.
Runs contrary to Scripture.

What is the problem with them residing in Bethlehem and presenting Jesus in the Temple on the 8th day? It is not a problem to place the flight into Egypt some time after Jesus was presented in the Temple but before they moved to Nazareth. I see no problem or contradiction in it.

Why do you think it is not possible for the Magi to have visited Jesus in Bethlehem?

flybaby
Nov 15th 2008, 11:06 PM
But you can't ignore Luke.

It says they were in Bethlehem 8 days, then they went to Jerusalem, then they went to their house in Nazareth.
Matthew says the night following the Magi's visit, they left for Egypt.

NO WAY the Magi could have visited Messiah in Bethlehem.

If you try to hold to the Magi visiting the baby in Bethlehem, then how do you put Messiah going to Jerusalem, then going to Nazareth.
DOES NOT WORK.
Runs contrary to Scripture.

Yeah, I figured out this timeline in college (on my own) and when I took a test of it, I wrote out why I believed my answer was correct even though it was different from what was commonly taught. I can't remember now what happened with that.

But all these years since then, I've believed that, but haven't heard anyone teach that. But I still think that he was in Nazareth when the wise men (no telling how many of them there were just because there were three gifts) came to visit him and his family.

Eaglenester
Nov 15th 2008, 11:09 PM
I'm not ignoring Luke, but just making the point that we cannot dogmatically say the Magi met Jesus in Nazareth and not Bethlehem. Based on Matthew, they went to find Him in Bethlehem and there is no mention of Nazareth until after they returned from Egypt.



What is the problem with them residing in Bethlehem and presenting Jesus in the Temple on the 8th day? It is not a problem to place the flight into Egypt some time after Jesus was presented in the Temple but before they moved to Nazareth. I see no problem or contradiction in it.

Why do you think it is not possible for the Magi to have visited Jesus in Bethlehem?

Try to configure a timeline that has Magi visiting while in Bethlehem for the birth, and leaving THAT night for Eqypt.
That has them leaving Bethlehem after 8 days for Jerusalem
Then has then leaving Jerusalem for their home in Nazerath

CAN NOT be done.

RoadWarrior
Nov 15th 2008, 11:09 PM
Just curious... Where exactly does it say there were three wise men? Haven't found that part yet.

:hmm: There were three gifts - gold, frankinscense, and myrrh. So it needed three men, one for each gift? :dunno:

Seriously, I don't think it tells us a number of the magi/wise men who journeyed to find the new king.

Who were those guys anyway? And where did they come from?

Yukerboy
Nov 15th 2008, 11:16 PM
After pouring over the passages for the last 20 minutes, I would love for someone to show me a timeline.

Luke states:
Joseph taking Mary to Bethlehem from Nazareth.
Christ born in Bethlehem.
8 days afterward He is named Jesus.
40 days after they go to Jerusalem
When everything is done that is required by the Law, they return to Nazareth.

Matthew states:
Jesus is born in Bethlehem.
Magi come to Jerusalem
Magi sent to Bethlehem
Christ sent to Egypt
They return to Nazareth.

So combining them?

Joseph taking Mary to Bethlehem from Nazareth.
Christ born in Bethlehem.
Magi come to Jerusalem
Magi sent to Bethlehem
Christ sent to Egypt
8 day old Christ is named Jesus
40 days after they go to Jerusalem.
They return to Nazareth.

Am I missing something? I can go either way on this as I never ever really looked at this before.

Tanya~
Nov 15th 2008, 11:17 PM
This passage indicates that Jesus was in Bethlehem when the Magi visited Him:


Matt 2:13-16
Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him."

14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, 15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."

16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men.
NKJV
Herod's wrath was against children "in Bethlehem and in all its districts." If Jesus was in Nazareth he would not have been in imminent danger. Herod's massacre didn't reach up to Nazareth; Nazareth cannot be considered to be a district of Bethlehem.

Tanya~
Nov 15th 2008, 11:32 PM
For a timeline, there is no problem placing the flight to Egypt after Mary's time of purification. They would have been residing in Bethlehem while Mary recovered from childbirth and while waiting for the time for Jesus' circumcision on the 8th day, and then for the time when the offering was due. Mary would have had an additional 33 days of purification after Jesus' circumcision, and then she would bring the offering to the priest. See Leviticus 12.

Luke puts it this way:
Luke 2:22-24
Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord 23(as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the LORD"), 24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, "A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons."
NKJV

Luke is concerned with the fulfillment of the law and stresses that point rather than giving an exhaustive narrative of everything that happened at the time of Jesus' birth.

For all we know, the Magi arrived immediately after Mary's offering, and they immediately fled to Egypt. But Luke isn't concerned with that and only mentions that they fulfilled all the requirements of the Law before moving to Nazareth.

There's no conflict or contradiction, it's just that the two gospel accounts focus on different things.

Eaglenester
Nov 15th 2008, 11:32 PM
Who were those guys anyway? And where did they come from?

The most plausible explanation resides in Daniel.
Daniel was given details to the coming of Messiah, Daniel was named "chief of the magi.
It is thought that Daniel recorded or passed down this prophecy to the magi, so they knew by prophecy that the King of the Jews was born and went to honor Him.

Eaglenester
Nov 15th 2008, 11:35 PM
For a timeline, there is no problem placing the flight to Egypt after Mary's time of purification. They would have been residing in Bethlehem while Mary recovered from childbirth and while waiting for the time for Jesus' circumcision on the 8th day, and then for the time when the offering was due. Mary would have had an additional 33 days of purification after Jesus' circumcision, and then she would bring the offering to the priest. See Leviticus 12.

Luke puts it this way:
Luke 2:22-24
Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord 23(as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the LORD"), 24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, "A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons."
NKJV

Luke is concerned with the fulfillment of the law and stresses that point rather than giving an exhaustive narrative of everything that happened at the time of Jesus' birth.

For all we know, the Magi arrived immediately after Mary's offering, and they immediately fled to Egypt. But Luke isn't concerned with that and only mentions that they fulfilled all the requirements of the Law before moving to Nazareth.

There's no conflict or contradiction, it's just that the two gospel accounts focus on different things.

YES there IS a conflict.

Present a timeline like I have.

Scripture says they returned from Egypt to Nazareth.

When did they go from Bethlehem to Jerusalem, then to Nazareth?????????

You CAN'T lay this out in a chronological timeline.

jeffweeder
Nov 15th 2008, 11:40 PM
Wasnt Jesus around 2 years old when the Magi came to the house?

Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared.

8 And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him."


Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi.

Yukerboy
Nov 15th 2008, 11:40 PM
Joseph taking Mary to Bethlehem from Nazareth.
Christ born in Bethlehem.
Magi come to Jerusalem
Magi sent to Bethlehem
Christ sent to Egypt
8 day old Christ is named Jesus
40 days after they go to Jerusalem.
They return to Nazareth.

Am I missing something? I can go either way on this as I never ever really looked at this before.


You CAN'T lay this out in a chronological timeline.

Er.........(just trying to get to 15 characters)......

Tanya~
Nov 15th 2008, 11:41 PM
Who were those guys anyway? And where did they come from?

Another possibility is that they were from the Edomites or Moabites with the knowledge of the curse that had been placed on Edom and Moab by the Lord through the naughty prophet Balaam:

Num 24:15-19

So he took up his oracle and said:

"The utterance of Balaam the son of Beor,
And the utterance of the man whose eyes are opened;
16 The utterance of him who hears the words of God,
And has the knowledge of the Most High,
Who sees the vision of the Almighty,
Who falls down, with eyes wide open:

17 "I see Him, but not now;
I behold Him, but not near;
A Star shall come out of Jacob;
A Scepter shall rise out of Israel,
And batter the brow of Moab,
And destroy all the sons of tumult.

18 "And Edom shall be a possession;
Seir also, his enemies, shall be a possession,
While Israel does valiantly.
19 Out of Jacob One shall have dominion,
And destroy the remains of the city."
NKJV

This would have been very distressing to Herod because He was an Idumean, that is, an Edomite. It would explain why he was so terrified that this prophecy was being fulfilled when he was ruling in israel.

The Daniel theory may be correct but I do think the star mentioned by the Magi is a reference to this prophecy. Where they actually came from, I don't think it is known with certainty.

SIG
Nov 15th 2008, 11:43 PM
I'm glad someone mentioned the visit to Jerusalem on His 40th day. This was for His Pidyan HaBen--the dedication of a first-born son. The son is symbolically bought back (redeemed) from being dedicated to Temple service. Silver (a symbol of redemption) is shaken over the baby boy. Good, eh?

Yes--three Magi are pictured because there were three gifts--representing Prophet, Priest, and King.

It has been surmised that the Magi were from Babylon, and were Zoroastrians--but from a teaching line traced to Daniel and the time of the captivity. This is fascinating.

As for a strictly accurate Nativity timeline--it is not certain, just like the actual month Christ was born. My take on this is that God has left it uncertain because it is not essential to the doctrines of the faith. So in reply to the OP--in terms of the Gospel itself, it doesn't really matter.

People get on hobby horses like these and ride them--but please don't let it distract from the Great Commission. Souls are in peril out there.

Yukerboy
Nov 15th 2008, 11:45 PM
Wasnt Jesus around 2 years old when the Magi came to the house?

Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared.

8 And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him."


Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi.

Maybe he was being just really thorough? :help:

Eaglenester
Nov 15th 2008, 11:46 PM
This passage indicates that Jesus was in Bethlehem when the Magi visited Him:

Matt 2:13-16
Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him."

14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, 15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."

16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men.
NKJV
Herod's wrath was against children "in Bethlehem and in all its districts." If Jesus was in Nazareth he would not have been in imminent danger. Herod's massacre didn't reach up to Nazareth; Nazareth cannot be considered to be a district of Bethlehem.

Doesn't state that Messiah was in Bethlehem at the time.

Herod THOUGH Messiah was in Bethlehem because that's where prophecy had Him being born.

Why did Yahweh have Joseph take the CHILD (not baby) to Egypt?

He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by Yahweh through the prophet: "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON."
(Matthew 2:15)

Also yes Scripture records Herod killing children in Bethlehem, but was that the extent of what Herod did?

Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of Yahweh appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him."
(Matthew 2:13)

If the extent of Herod's search was just the one event in Bethlehem, then Yahweh could have just have them reside in Nazereth.
Notice Yahweh kept them in Egypt till Herod's death.

Scripture does not support, but contradicts a Bethlehem Messiah visit by the Magi.

Eaglenester
Nov 15th 2008, 11:48 PM
Er.........(just trying to get to 15 characters)......

Skipped ALOT.

Ignored Messiah going from Bethlehem to Jurusalem, then to Nazereth.

Tanya~
Nov 15th 2008, 11:51 PM
EN, it's fine with me that we will continue to disagree on this issue. :) I do think we are in agreement that the whole magi at the manger scene is erroneous at any rate, and that's well enough.

jeffweeder
Nov 15th 2008, 11:54 PM
Maybe he was being just really thorough?

It wouldnt surprise me.

The Magi saw the star while they were still in the east, and then had to travel all the way from Persia or Babylon--not sure how long that would of took..........

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying,
2 "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."

Tanya~
Nov 15th 2008, 11:54 PM
YES there IS a conflict.

Present a timeline like I have.

Scripture says they returned from Egypt to Nazareth.

When did they go from Bethlehem to Jerusalem, then to Nazareth?????????

You CAN'T lay this out in a chronological timeline.

They resided in Bethlehem, and went up to Jerusalem to have Jesus circumcised, and then later to present the offering. They did not live in Jerusalem at any point, just traveled there for those events. Then after that, according to Luke, they moved to Nazareth. The flight to Egypt can comfortably and easily fit between the presentation of the offering and the move to Nazareth.

Yukerboy
Nov 16th 2008, 12:03 AM
"Ignored Messiah going from Bethlehem to Jurusalem, then to Nazereth. "

Show me where he went from Bethlehem to Jerusalem. I got the Jerusalem to Nazareth part at the end.

Eaglenester
Nov 16th 2008, 12:13 AM
EN, it's fine with me that we will continue to disagree on this issue. :) I do think we are in agreement that the whole magi at the manger scene is erroneous at any rate, and that's well enough.

Yes

But Scripture can't have Messiah leaving Bethlehem for Eqypt
While also have Him leaving Bethlehem after 8 days for Jurusalem, then going from there to Nazereth.
Can't work both ways.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I find is that people will hold unwaveringly to the Magi in Bethlehem because if they realize this is a lie - then they start to question what else did the church lie about.
Then their world is rocked - not many are willing to do this.

2 different verses showing 2 different camps in regards to this:

O Yahweh, my strength and my stronghold, And my refuge in the day of distress, To You the nations will come From the ends of the earth and say, "Our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood, Futility and things of no profit."

(Jeremiah 16:19)


thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

(Mark 7:13)


Which camp do you all want to fall in?
I aim for the one prophetic one of Jeremiah.

Eaglenester
Nov 16th 2008, 12:14 AM
"Ignored Messiah going from Bethlehem to Jurusalem, then to Nazereth. "

Show me where he went from Bethlehem to Jerusalem. I got the Jerusalem to Nazareth part at the end.

Go back and read my posts, about Luke in Particular.

Yukerboy
Nov 16th 2008, 12:28 AM
While also have Him leaving Bethlehem after 8 days for Jurusalem, then going from there to Nazereth.
Can't work both ways.

Luke states that they did not go to Jerusalem until after the purification was complete (40 days).

During this forty days is when they had to have gone to Egypt.

I'm tending to think that they went from Nazareth to Bethlehem, had Christ, the Magi come, they flee to Egypt, after the 40 days required for purification they then go to Jerusalem and then finally back to Nazareth.

Yuke

Eaglenester
Nov 16th 2008, 12:29 AM
They resided in Bethlehem, and went up to Jerusalem to have Jesus circumcised, and then later to present the offering. They did not live in Jerusalem at any point, just traveled there for those events. Then after that, according to Luke, they moved to Nazareth. The flight to Egypt can comfortably and easily fit between the presentation of the offering and the move to Nazareth.

33 Days time they moved to Eqypt, Herod died, then they went back to Bethlehem :rofl:

DOES NOT WORK

Also history records the census took place between 7-6 B.C.E
Herod died in 4 B.C.E

jeffweeder
Nov 16th 2008, 12:29 AM
But Scripture can't have Messiah leaving Bethlehem for Eqypt

Herod sent the Magi to Bethlehem to look for the child.
The Angel then warned Joseph to take the child away, because Herod was about to have all the children under 2 killed in Bethlehem.

Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him."
9 After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was.

And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.



The Flight to Egypt


13 Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him."


Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity.


This puts the child in Bethlehem, because they fled to Egypt.

The only time Jesus lived in Nazerath was after Egypt, when this prophecy came true

So Joseph got up, took the Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel.
22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Then after being warned by God in a dream, he left for the regions of Galilee,
23 and came and lived in a city called Nazareth. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets: "He shall be called a Nazarene."

Tanya~
Nov 16th 2008, 12:31 AM
Yes

But Scripture can't have Messiah leaving Bethlehem for Eqypt
While also have Him leaving Bethlehem after 8 days for Jurusalem, then going from there to Nazereth.
Can't work both ways.

Their visit to Jerusalem has nothing to do with where the lived. Are you assuming they moved to Jerusalem -- to live there? If so, that's the problem right there. They didn't move from Bethlehem to Jerusalem to Nazareth. They visited Jerusalem while residing in Bethlehem so that they could perform the requirements of the law which included bringing Jesus to the Temple for His circumcision on the 8th day, and then later bringing the offering after Mary's period of purification was completed. See Leviticus 12. Luke makes the point that they performed all the requirements according to the law.

They went from Bethlehem to Egypt, and from Egypt to Nazareth.


What I find is that people will hold unwaveringly to the Magi in Bethlehem because if they realize this is a lie - then they start to question what else did the church lie about.
Then their world is rocked - not many are willing to do this.

Your original question was about the magi at the manger, and I think we all agree that is not an accurate picture. But unless you can show an explicit passage showing the Magi meeting Jesus in Nazareth, then you can't dogmatically assert that the idea of the Magi in Bethlehem is a lie. Matthew clearly places the Magi in Bethlehem, and doesn't even suggest that they went to Nazareth.


2 different verses showing 2 different camps in regards to this:

O Yahweh, my strength and my stronghold, And my refuge in the day of distress, To You the nations will come From the ends of the earth and say, "Our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood, Futility and things of no profit."

(Jeremiah 16:19)


thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

(Mark 7:13)


Which camp do you all want to fall in?
I aim for the one prophetic one of Jeremiah.

I'm right there with you on the rejection of false traditions Eaglenester, but in the process of seeking to follow the truth, we don't want to reject the Scripture by making assumptions of our own which cloud our view of the truth.

Eaglenester
Nov 16th 2008, 12:41 AM
Their visit to Jerusalem has nothing to do with where the lived. Are you assuming they moved to Jerusalem -- to live there? If so, that's the problem right there. They didn't move from Bethlehem to Jerusalem to Nazareth. They visited Jerusalem while residing in Bethlehem so that they could perform the requirements of the law which included bringing Jesus to the Temple for His circumcision on the 8th day, and then later bringing the offering after Mary's period of purification was completed. See Leviticus 12. Luke makes the point that they performed all the requirements according to the law.




I didn't say they lived in Jerusalem, just that they went from Bethlehem to Jerusalem, then to Nazareth as Luke tells us.



They went from Bethlehem to Egypt, and from Egypt to Nazareth.

Scripture says they went from Bethlehem to Jerusalem, to Nazareth.

Tanya~
Nov 16th 2008, 12:49 AM
Keep in mind that each of the 4 gospels has a different thrust and purpose. I think it is perfectly reasonable and not at all antiScriptural to understand the Magi met Jesus in Bethlehem. Luke doesn't mention that part at all, so we can't really use Luke to refute a Bethlehem meeting. In Matthew's account there is no problem to have them going from Bethlehem to Egypt and then to Nazareth. It's not antiScriptural.

Eaglenester
Nov 16th 2008, 01:03 AM
Keep in mind that each of the 4 gospels has a different thrust and purpose. I think it is perfectly reasonable and not at all antiScriptural to understand the Magi met Jesus in Bethlehem. Luke doesn't mention that part at all, so we can't really use Luke to refute a Bethlehem meeting. In Matthew's account there is no problem to have them going from Bethlehem to Egypt and then to Nazareth. It's not antiScriptural.

But you have to put Luke and Matthew TOGETHER to get a fuller picture.

You also have to take into account it said the Magi visited a young child, while the shepherds visited an infant.

Most theologians support that the term young child means more than 1 year old by Greek.

RoadWarrior
Nov 16th 2008, 01:15 AM
One thing that helped me in trying to get all this to fit together, is that Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem because that is where they came from. So they had probably a large family there, on both sides. Mary, having made the journey to Bethlehem in the last stage of pregnancy, likely needed a long recuperation period, also there would have been female family members there to help her with her first child.

It would not be at all unusual that they stayed in Bethlehem with their families, for an extended period of time. They could easily have made the necessary journeys to the temple in Jerusalem and back to Bethlehem.

It is also clear that Herod sent the Magi to Bethlehem, not Nazareth. The Magi went to Bethlehem, and didn't go back to Herod. So Herod had all the babies under the age of two, killed in Bethlehem, not in Nazareth.

Naturally, they were not still in the stable all that time. So the shepherds showed up the same night that the star appeared (when Jesus was born) and found him in the stable.

But the Magi started to travel from the East after the star appeared, and arrived in Bethlehem to find the young family in a house - likely the house of a relative.

It is not like Joseph had a 9 to 5 job that he had to get back to immediately. He could have been working carpentry in Bethlehem all that time. It's a portable skill. He could also have done carpentry to support the family while they were in Egypt.

Tanya~
Nov 16th 2008, 01:17 AM
But you have to put Luke and Matthew TOGETHER to get a fuller picture.

You also have to take into account it said the Magi visited a young child, while the shepherds visited an infant.

Most theologians support that the term young child means more than 1 year old by Greek.

I'm not arguing for the Magi visiting at the manger.

Luke's account doesn't mention the flight to Egypt. Matthew's account doesn't mention the visit to Jerusalem.

What I am saying is that Matthew's gospel is the one that speaks about the visit of the Magi, not Luke. Carefully examine what Matthew tells us about the account.

What places are named in this account, and in what order are these places given? What happens at these different places? Does Matthew's account indicate that Jesus is in Bethlehem or in Nazareth before the flight to Egypt?

Eaglenester
Nov 16th 2008, 01:21 AM
To sum it up.

Scripture says that Messiah was born in Bethlehem.

After 40 days they went to Jerusalem, then home to Nazareth.

The Magi visited the young child (more than 1 year old) in a house, and Messiah and family left that night for Egypt.

They stayed in Egypt till Herod died, then they went to Nazareth.

Now history records (by the writings of Josephus for one) that there were 2-3 years between the census (birth of Messiah) and the death of Herod.

Put the timeline presented by Scripture, the wording of Scripture (infant and young child) and history together and it refutes a Bethlehem visit of magi with Messiah.

Tanya~
Nov 16th 2008, 01:48 AM
My view is as follows:

Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

After 8 days He was taken to Jerusalem by Joseph and Mary to be circumcised and presented to the Lord. After 33 additional days they went again to Jerusalem to present the offering for Mary, two turtle doves or two young pigeons, according to the law stated in Lev 12.

The Magi visited Jesus in the house

They fled to Egypt

Herod ordered the destruction of all children 2 years old and under to be destroyed in the area of Bethlehem and it's districts

They returned after Herod's death and settled in Nazareth.

_

Now the fact that Herod had only the Bethlehem children killed strongly supports a Bethlehem location for Jesus' residence at the time of the visit of the Magi. If the Magi had traveled to Nazareth to visit Jesus, Herod would have known and would have killed children in Nazareth.

Concerning the translation of the Greek word paidon, this word has a wider range of usage that doesn't exclude children under one year of age, see John 16:21 & Heb 11:23 which uses the same word.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words:

NT:3813

5. paidion NT:3813, a diminutive of pais, signifies "a little or young child"; it is used of an infant just born, John 16:21, of a male child recently born, e. g., Matt 2:8; Heb 11:23; of a more advanced child, Mark 9:24; of a son, John 4:49; of a girl, Mark 5:39,40,41; in the plural, of "children," e. g., Matt 14:21. It is used metaphorically of believers who are deficient in spiritual understanding, 1 Cor 14:20, and in affectionate and familiar address by the Lord to His disciples, almost like the Eng., "lads," John 21:5; by the apostle John to the youngest believers in the family of God, 1 John 2:13,18; there it is to be distinguished from teknia, which term he uses in addressing all his readers vv. 1,12,28: see teknia, above. See DAMSEL.

Note: The adverb paidiothen, "from (or of) a child," is found in Mark 9:21.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

Toymom
Nov 16th 2008, 01:51 AM
Well, what we do know is there is not a number of magi given. There could have been anywhere from two to two hundred of them. The three gifts are symbolic - gold symbolizes the Lord's divinity, frankinscence the fragrance of resurrection and myrrh was used when burrying people and it shows the Lord's death.
As others said, we don't know the exact time or place, but it was not in Bethleham at the manger and was sometime during the first two years of Jesus's life as seen by Herrod's action.
Thus making the "nativity scene" invalid.

Tanya~
Nov 16th 2008, 01:54 AM
We know it was not at the manger, but in a house. Bethlehem as the location of the house is not excluded by Scripture.

Eaglenester
Nov 16th 2008, 02:04 AM
My view is as follows:

Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

After 8 days He was taken to Jerusalem by Joseph and Mary to be circumcised and presented to the Lord. After 33 additional days they went again to Jerusalem to present the offering for Mary, two turtle doves or two young pigeons, according to the law stated in Lev 12.

The Magi visited Jesus in the house

They fled to Egypt

Herod ordered the destruction of all children 2 years old and under to be destroyed in the area of Bethlehem and it's districts

They returned after Herod's death and settled in Nazareth.

_

Now the fact that Herod had only the Bethlehem children killed strongly supports a Bethlehem location for Jesus' residence at the time of the visit of the Magi. If the Magi had traveled to Nazareth to visit Jesus, Herod would have known and would have killed children in Nazareth.

Concerning the translation of the Greek word paidon, this word has a wider range of usage that doesn't exclude children under one year of age, see John 16:21 & Heb 11:23 which uses the same word.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words:

NT:3813

5. paidion NT:3813, a diminutive of pais, signifies "a little or young child"; it is used of an infant just born, John 16:21, of a male child recently born, e. g., Matt 2:8; Heb 11:23; of a more advanced child, Mark 9:24; of a son, John 4:49; of a girl, Mark 5:39,40,41; in the plural, of "children," e. g., Matt 14:21. It is used metaphorically of believers who are deficient in spiritual understanding, 1 Cor 14:20, and in affectionate and familiar address by the Lord to His disciples, almost like the Eng., "lads," John 21:5; by the apostle John to the youngest believers in the family of God, 1 John 2:13,18; there it is to be distinguished from teknia, which term he uses in addressing all his readers vv. 1,12,28: see teknia, above. See DAMSEL.

Note: The adverb paidiothen, "from (or of) a child," is found in Mark 9:21.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

You are leaving out that when they left Jerusalem after the ritual- they went to Nazereth

Tanya~
Nov 16th 2008, 02:28 AM
You are leaving out that when they left Jerusalem after the ritual- they went to Nazereth

:lol: I didn't leave that out. It's just that in my time line, the visit of the Magi and the flight to Egypt take place between Mary's sin offering in Jerusalem and their move to Nazareth. So we still have the visit to Jerusalem before the move to Nazareth. There's just something in between that Luke didn't mention. I think this is the best way to harmonize the two passages.

Eaglenester
Nov 16th 2008, 02:37 AM
:lol: I didn't leave that out. It's just that in my time line, the visit of the Magi and the flight to Egypt take place between Mary's sin offering in Jerusalem and their move to Nazareth. So we still have the visit to Jerusalem before the move to Nazareth. There's just something in between that Luke didn't mention. I think this is the best way to harmonize the two passages.

DOES NOT WORK

When they had performed everything according to the Law of Yahweh, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.
(Luke 2:39)


Plus you ignore that history records at least more than 1 year between the birth of Messiah, and the death of Herod.

Tanya~
Nov 16th 2008, 02:39 AM
DOES NOT WORK

When they had performed everything according to the Law of Yahweh, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.
(Luke 2:39)

Luke doesn't mention the magi, or the flight to Egypt. He just completely skips over that. But with my time line, they do still settle in Nazareth after performing the law. It is not in conflict.



Plus you ignore that history records at least more than 1 year between the birth of Messiah, and the death of Herod.

He was living in Egypt during this time.

Eaglenester
Nov 16th 2008, 02:52 AM
Luke doesn't mention the magi, or the flight to Egypt. He just completely skips over that. But with my time line, they do still settle in Nazareth after performing the law. It is not in conflict.


Come on now, in the middle of that one sentence in Luke

When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.

Your going to put them going to Egypt? :rofl:

Are you a used car salesman or something.

The sentence structure does NOT support that in the LEAST.

It's pretty clear cut:

WHEN

It implies that after the sin offering, they returned DIRECTLY to Nazareth.

You REALLY don't buy what you're suggesting do you?

"When I finished super, I did the dishes"
Is there room for me to take a vacation to Europe in the middle of that sentence? :rofl:

Tanya~
Nov 16th 2008, 03:57 AM
That's not much of a rebuttal, EN, and yes, I do hold to that position. I could just as easily try to make your position look ridiculous by making fun of your view using the Matthew narrative.

The problem with your view is that you are trying to use a passage that doesn't even mention the magi to try to discount the Matthew account showing Bethlehem as the place where they met Jesus.

Because you're so concerned about the false tradition of the magi at the manger, you won't even allow that Jesus may actually have been living in Bethlehem when they came, as Matthew tells us.

Let's give it up, it's silly at this point to keep arguing about it without providing Scripture. You've given your view and I've given mine. It's enough.

Eaglenester
Nov 16th 2008, 04:12 AM
That's not much of a rebuttal, EN, and yes, I do hold to that position. I could just as easily try to make your position look ridiculous by making fun of your view using the Matthew narrative.

The problem with your view is that you are trying to use a passage that doesn't even mention the magi to try to discount the Matthew account showing Bethlehem as the place where they met Jesus.

Because you're so concerned about the false tradition of the magi at the manger, you won't even allow that Jesus may actually have been living in Bethlehem when they came, as Matthew tells us.

Let's give it up, it's silly at this point to keep arguing about it without providing Scripture. You've given your view and I've given mine. It's enough.

The sentence structure of that verse in Like is the rebuttal to your position.

You could rephrase it to say

Once they were done in Jerusalem, they went to Nazareth.

1of7000
Nov 16th 2008, 05:03 AM
One thing that helped me in trying to get all this to fit together, is that Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem because that is where they came from. So they had probably a large family there, on both sides. Mary, having made the journey to Bethlehem in the last stage of pregnancy, likely needed a long recuperation period, also there would have been female family members there to help her with her first child.

It would not be at all unusual that they stayed in Bethlehem with their families, for an extended period of time. They could easily have made the necessary journeys to the temple in Jerusalem and back to Bethlehem.

It is also clear that Herod sent the Magi to Bethlehem, not Nazareth. The Magi went to Bethlehem, and didn't go back to Herod. So Herod had all the babies under the age of two, killed in Bethlehem, not in Nazareth.

Naturally, they were not still in the stable all that time. So the shepherds showed up the same night that the star appeared (when Jesus was born) and found him in the stable.

But the Magi started to travel from the East after the star appeared, and arrived in Bethlehem to find the young family in a house - likely the house of a relative.

It is not like Joseph had a 9 to 5 job that he had to get back to immediately. He could have been working carpentry in Bethlehem all that time. It's a portable skill. He could also have done carpentry to support the family while they were in Egypt.

I gotta go with that. The two gospels show two points of view. Luke is abreviated because the focus is on the Lord as man. it also says, to paraphrase, when the law of the Lord was fulfilled. the flight to egypt would have been part of the law that needed to be fulfilled. so luke goes from birth to completing the law to nazareth.

Matthew deals with Christ as King so a royal visit is mentioned (the magi) the change in country of domicile is mentioned (flight to egypt) and the return to country is mentioned. all of this to document legal status to maintain the claim of King of Israel.

Both gospels must be considered, if them blind guys had considered all points of view as correct they would have had a good idea what an elephant looked like.

Eaglenester
Nov 16th 2008, 05:18 AM
I gotta go with that. The two gospels show two points of view. Luke is abreviated because the focus is on the Lord as man. it also says, to paraphrase, when the law of the Lord was fulfilled. the flight to egypt would have been part of the law that needed to be fulfilled. so luke goes from birth to completing the law to nazareth.

Matthew deals with Christ as King so a royal visit is mentioned (the magi) the change in country of domicile is mentioned (flight to egypt) and the return to country is mentioned. all of this to document legal status to maintain the claim of King of Israel.

Both gospels must be considered, if them blind guys had considered all points of view as correct they would have had a good idea what an elephant looked like.

Where are you pulling the bolded part from. TBN or some other ungodly place?

That is pure hogwash.

NOTHING in Torah or Scripture supports that.

Whatever it takes to hold onto precious traditions, ignoring Scripture in the process.

markedward
Nov 16th 2008, 05:29 AM
Doesn't state that Messiah was in Bethlehem at the time.

Herod THOUGH Messiah was in Bethlehem because that's where prophecy had Him being born.The text infers that Jesus was in Bethlehem at the time that Herod was initiating the massacre. If Jesus was already in Nazareth, or even Jerusalem, then there would have been absolutely no reason for them to flee to Egypt, because neither Nazareth nor Jerusalem were in the district of Bethlehem. Meaning, if someone goes to Miami to murder a child, there's no reason for someone in Chicago to be told to flee to Canada. If Jesus wasn't in Bethlehem, then there was no reason for them to flee to Egypt. But the fact that the text tells us that a massacre was being initiated in Bethlehem, followed by a warning to Joseph to take Jesus to Egypt, this directly infers that they were in Bethlehem and thus had a reason to escape.


One thing that helped me in trying to get all this to fit together, is that Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem because that is where they came from. So they had probably a large family there, on both sides.And yet they couldn't find any place to go when Mary was giving birth? This doesn't mesh with the information given in the text. If they both "probably" had "large families" there, they should have easily been able to find a place to go, rather than getting stuck with animals. Maybe they did have some family there, but I would suspect that it would have been distant family, given that they apparently didn't try to seek them out...


It would not be at all unusual that they stayed in Bethlehem with their families, for an extended period of time. They could easily have made the necessary journeys to the temple in Jerusalem and back to Bethlehem.This also doesn't fit. Luke 2 says that they went to the temple in Jerusalem in accordance with the Law. It then says that when they had done everything according to the Law, they went to Nazareth. The text doesn't suggest or imply that they made trips between Bethlehem and Jerusalem. Specifically read Luke 2:22 and 2:39. As far as the text is concerned, it says they went from Bethlehem to Jerusalem to fulfill the Law, and once they fulfilled the Law they went to Nazareth.


After 8 days He was taken to Jerusalem by Joseph and Mary to be circumcised and presented to the Lord. After 33 additional days they went again to Jerusalem to present the offering for Mary, two turtle doves or two young pigeons, according to the law stated in Lev 12.Again, as far as the text goes, Luke only says Jesus was taken to Jerusalem for the "purification" according to the Law, and that it was at that time that He was "presented to the Lord". Contrary to what you believe, Luke doesn't say that Jesus was taken to Jerusalem to be circumcised, which at the least implies that He was not taken there (meaning, if Luke didn't mention Jerusalem at the time of the circumcision, chances are they didn't go there for the circumcision), and Luke also says that Jesus was "presented to the Lord" during the "purification" fulfillments, not at the circumcision like you've said.

1of7000
Nov 16th 2008, 05:39 AM
settle down little feller :kiss: :hug:

Math 2:23 and he came and dwelt in a city called nazareth,that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene"

you really shouldn't limit your scope of the Word especially if you insist on speaking against tradition. otherwise you get angered easily.

RoadWarrior
Nov 16th 2008, 06:25 AM
Come on now, in the middle of that one sentence in Luke

When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.

Your going to put them going to Egypt? :rofl:

Are you a used car salesman or something.

The sentence structure does NOT support that in the LEAST.

It's pretty clear cut:

WHEN

It implies that after the sin offering, they returned DIRECTLY to Nazareth.

You REALLY don't buy what you're suggesting do you?

"When I finished super, I did the dishes"
Is there room for me to take a vacation to Europe in the middle of that sentence? :rofl:

What are you trying to accomplish with this thread, Eaglenester? We have agreed with you that the Magi were not at the stable.

So, what is your real intent in starting this thread?

SIG
Nov 16th 2008, 06:31 AM
Will this help?

http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/bjohnson/hg1/PNT00D.HTM#Table_1

RoadWarrior
Nov 16th 2008, 06:32 AM
Will this help?

http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/bjohnson/hg1/PNT00D.HTM#Table_1

Yes, it does. That is an excellent and useful timeline from what I can see.

SIG
Nov 16th 2008, 06:35 AM
wow--you are quick!

Also, I see no comments on my earlier post, #whatever...

(OK--#27...)

RoadWarrior
Nov 16th 2008, 06:42 AM
I'm glad someone mentioned the visit to Jerusalem on His 40th day. This was for His Pidyan HaBen--the dedication of a first-born son. The son is symbolically bought back (redeemed) from being dedicated to Temple service. Silver (a symbol of redemption) is shaken over the baby boy. Good, eh?

Yes--three Magi are pictured because there were three gifts--representing Prophet, Priest, and King.

It has been surmised that the Magi were from Babylon, and were Zoroastrians--but from a teaching line traced to Daniel and the time of the captivity. This is fascinating.

As for a strictly accurate Nativity timeline--it is not certain, just like the actual month Christ was born. My take on this is that God has left it uncertain because it is not essential to the doctrines of the faith. So in reply to the OP--in terms of the Gospel itself, it doesn't really matter.

People get on hobby horses like these and ride them--but please don't let it distract from the Great Commission. Souls are in peril out there.

Hi Sig,

You are right, I missed this one. I've been preoccupied this evening watching "The Fall of the Roman Empire" starring Sophia Loren and some other people. :lol:

Do you want to give us some Bible references for the redemption of the baby boy? That sounds like a more interesting discussion that the spiral we've been in so far.

Those Zoros fascinate me. It will be great when we have peace in the world and we can go as tourists to Iran and study that history in situ. I did see traces of it further east, in Turkmenistan.

Zack702
Nov 16th 2008, 07:32 AM
Lets not forget that the wise men did visit Jesus when he was young. For they knew through handed down wisdom and the spirit God gives us that it was Christ that was born.

A nativity scene is not a holy relic.
It is a remembrance of the birth of Jesus not some symbol that defines our faith nor our knowledge of scripture. It is meant to be a joyfull sight.

God told them by dreams to go to Egypt untill Herod was dead. Either they were in Bethlehem, Galilee or traveling to some other town. What is the difference in knowing the truth here what the name of the city was or how many wise men there was? If you followed the bible up to that point then you know that it allready explained to us that we are wise fools and that is fine as long as you have faith in God.

Knowing that we also know that it doesn't matter who we place in our nativity scenes it doesn't matter not one bit. It could be Mr T with a quote that says "I pitty the fool that mess wit Jesus". The only thing that matters is that we understand the one God which is not a idol but a spiritual Father who loves his children.

threebigrocks
Nov 17th 2008, 04:18 PM
Okay, if all children under 2 were ordered to be killed by Herod, and Nazareth was within Herod's jurisdiction, wouldn't that make the maximum age of Jesus 2 years old before they fled?

Herod calculated the time the Maji or kings from the east had been to see him to figure out how old the child would be. As the kings from the east went home by another route, it apparently wasn't unreasonable for Herod to not be concerned enough until then.

It isn't impossible that they did return to Nazareth after the dedication of Jesus in the temple. There is a two year period in there. I used to think that the last thing I wanted to do after giving birth was to take a nice long journey on a donkey. After I realized the timing - I'm thinking the last thing i'd want to do is take a nice long journey on a donkey with a toddler. :rolleyes: Oie...

Eaglenester
Nov 17th 2008, 05:03 PM
It isn't impossible that they did return to Nazareth after the dedication of Jesus in the temple.

That's what Luke tells us happened

Veretax
Nov 17th 2008, 06:33 PM
The shepherds went back, glorifying and praising God for all that they had heard and seen, just as had been told them.
And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Yahushua, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.
And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to Yahweh


(Luke 2:20-22)



When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.

(Luke 2:39)



After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him.
Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.
Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of Yahweh appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him."
So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt.


(Matthew 2:11-14)



Timeline:

Born in Bethlehem

After 8 days, went to Jerusalem (a very short distance)

Went back home to Nazereth

Visited by the Magi.

Left that night for Egypt.






You have to remember that not all of the Gospels have ALL of the events in them. Now, why is it that the Magi when they came to Herod got the answer that the scribes said it was supposed to be in Bethlehem. Why did they need to Warn Joseph if he was in Nazareth. read the text in Matthew 2:


1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, 2 saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him." 3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 So they said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet: 6 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, Are not the least among the rulers of Judah; For out of you shall come a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel.' " F6 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Matthew+1&section=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mt&NavGo=1&NavNextChapter=%3E%3E&NavCurrentChapter=1#F6) 7 Then Herod, when he had secretly called the wise men, determined from them what time the star appeared. 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the young Child, and when you have found Him, bring back word to me, that I may come and worship Him also."
9 When they heard the king, they departed; and behold, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy. 11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh. 12 Then, being divinely warned in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed for their own country another way.
13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him." 14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, 15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son." F7 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Matthew+1&section=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mt&NavGo=1&NavNextChapter=%3E%3E&NavCurrentChapter=1#F7)
16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men. 17 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying: 18 "A voice was heard in Ramah, Lamentation, weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, Refusing to be comforted, Because they are no more." F8 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Matthew+1&section=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mt&NavGo=1&NavNextChapter=%3E%3E&NavCurrentChapter=1#F8)
19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the young Child's life are dead." 21 Then he arose, took the young Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea instead of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned by God in a dream, he turned aside into the region of Galilee. 23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene."


Clearly Herod slaughtered the people of bethlehem and all its districts according to this passage. I don't think Nazareth was close enough to be considered part of it, so to say they were not in bethlehem is just plain not supported by scripture. Now, I'm don't have the time to dig right now, but its my understanding that Many of the things Surrounding Christs birth happened near or upon one of the Jewish Feasts. I just can't recall which off the top of my head :/

joztok
Nov 19th 2008, 03:36 PM
CHRONOLOGICAL ATTEMPT 1 (Summary)

Mary And Joseph Go To Bethlehem
Jesus Is Born (Night 1: In Bethlehem)
Jesus Is Circumcised (Day 8: Still In Bethlehem)

Maji encounter Herod
Maji Head to Bethlehem

Jesus Is Circumcised (Day 8-35: Still in Bethlehem) (Day 36-39: Travel to Jerusalem? Day 40: Day of Consecration)
From Jerusalem to Bethlehem Again? Warning Comes That Night!

TRICKED By The Maji? How? Flee To Egypt (All in A Night (If possible?))

Life In Egypt/ Out Of Egypt

When All Is Done


CHRONOLOGICAL ATTEMPT 1


Mary And Joseph Go To Bethlehem

Luke 2:1In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world.
Luke 2:2(This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.)
Luke 2:3And everyone went to his own town to register. Luke 2:4So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David.

Luke 2:5He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child.


Jesus Is Born
(Night 1: In Bethlehem)

Luke 2:6While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, Luke 2:7and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
Luke 2:8And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night.
Luke 2:9An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified.
Luke 2:10But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.
Luke 2:11Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.
Luke 2:12This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
Luke 2:13Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
Luke 2:14"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."
Luke 2:15When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about."
Luke 2:16So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger.
Luke 2:17When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child,
Luke 2:18and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them.
Luke 2:19But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart.
Luke 2:20The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told.


Jesus Is Circumcised - Move in to proper dwelling/house
(Day 8: Still In Bethlehem)

Luke 2:21On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived.


(Maji encounter Herod

((( Mat 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
Mat 2:2and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."
Mat 2:3When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him.
Mat 2:4When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born.
Mat 2:5"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:
Mat 2:6" 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'"
Mat 2:7Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared.

Mat 2:8He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.


Maji Head to Bethlehem

Mat 2:9After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was...
Mat 2:10...When they saw the star, they were overjoyed.

Mat 2:11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. Mat 2:12And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route. )


Jesus Is Circumcised
(Day 8-35: Still in Bethlehem)
(Day 36-39: Travel?
(Day 40: Day of Consecration)

Luke 2:22When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord

Luke 2:23(as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord"),

[B]Luke 2:24and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: "a pair of doves or two young pigeons."[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%202&version=31#fen-NIV-24990c)]
Luke 2:25Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
Luke 2:26It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luke 2:27Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required...


From Jerusalem to Bethlehem Again? Warning Comes That Night!

Mat 2:13When they had gone (maji), an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him."
Mat 2:14So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt,
Mat 2:15where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."


TRICKED By The Maji? How?

Mat 2:16When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.


Flee To Egypt/ Life In Egypt/ Out Of Egypt

Mat 2:19After Herod died, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt
Mat 2:20and said, "Get up, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who were trying to take the child's life are dead." Mat 2:21So he got up, took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel.

Mat 2:22But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee,

Mat 2:23and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: "He will be called a Nazarene."


When All Is Done


Luke 2:39... When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. Luke 2:40And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.

======

I spent ages on this. I need to do a timeline. I'll try an attempt again later. :mad:

David Taylor
Mar 6th 2009, 05:27 PM
(thread closed as per...Slug1)
As the OP has changed his status to Non-Christian and can no longer participate in this thread, as per Slug1 the thread is now closed.

Thanks to all who have participated!