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wocleader
Nov 16th 2008, 01:47 AM
Matthew 24:37-42 - "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
"For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the Ark."
"And did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."
"Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left."
"Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left."
"Watch therefore for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming."

In this passage Jesus talks about the rapture of the Church. Luke also documented this but added something.

Luke 17:34-36 - "I tell you in that night there will be two men in one bed:The one will be taken and the other will be left."
" Two women will be grinding together:The one will be taken and the other left."
"Two men will be in the field:the one take and the other left."

Now someone with an "alternative lifestyle" would say well see that first sentence proves that how we live is ok. Not the case the word "Men" was not in the greek it was added at a later time. So in the greek it just reads as two instead of two men.

Obviously Jesus in these passages is speaking about The Rapture of the Church which is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18- "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus will shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."


Some people believe the Lord will actually descend down to earth when we come but it says he calls us up to the clouds to MEET Him in the air. Now if He came down to earth and we went up we would break the scripture where it says "And thus will shall always be with the Lord."

The Bible says that there will be mockers and scoffers of His return.
2 Peter 3:3- "Knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts.
Hebrews 4:11- Let us therefore enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience."

DO NOT Fall into unbelief or you will not be Raptured.

Now as we examine the passages above in Matthew & Luke pay attention to the words Jesus used.

Lets look at it

We don't grind in America but they still do in the arabian villages in the middleeast and in Israel.
Two Grinding
Two in the field
Two in bed

You see we really should praise the Lord here because what this reveals is that Jesus knew about Time zones way back when that weren't discovered by man until much later. Because He has said there will be two working but also two sleeping. You see back in Jesus day when it was 6 o clock it was 5 or 6 everywhere. But in Syria & North Africa it was sunset.

Don't overlook these things study His word very diligently and pay attention it will reveal new things to you.

And another thing is that there's only certain seasons where you would be grinding at a mill or harvesting in a field.

That gives you a clue on the possible timing of His return.
They would only work in a field at Barley Harvest with is passover. Wheat Harvest which is Pentecost, and the final harvest which is Tabernacles those are the 3 main feasts which everybody MUST attend.
Spring, Summer, or Fall

Now let's examine
One Taken & The Other Left

Taken in Greek means to receive close to or receive near.

In John 14:2-3 Jesus says the following "In My Fathers house are many mansions; if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am there you may be also."

Left in Greek means to forsake or to leave. So the left are the ones forsaken by God.

Our Lord is coming.

looking4jesus
Nov 16th 2008, 02:02 AM
Matthew 24:37-42 - "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
"For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the Ark."
"And did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."
"Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left."
"Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left."
"Watch therefore for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming."

In this passage Jesus talks about the rapture of the Church. Luke also documented this but added something.

Luke 17:34-36 - "I tell you in that night there will be two men in one bed:The one will be taken and the other will be left."
" Two women will be grinding together:The one will be taken and the other left."
"Two men will be in the field:the one take and the other left."

Now someone with an "alternative lifestyle" would say well see that first sentence proves that how we live is ok. Not the case the word "Men" was not in the greek it was added at a later time. So in the greek it just reads as two instead of two men.

Obviously Jesus in these passages is speaking about The Rapture of the Church which is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18- "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus will shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."


Some people believe the Lord will actually descend down to earth when we come but it says he calls us up to the clouds to MEET Him in the air. Now if He came down to earth and we went up we would break the scripture where it says "And thus will shall always be with the Lord."

The Bible says that there will be mockers and scoffers of His return.
2 Peter 3:3- "Knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts.
Hebrews 4:11- Let us therefore enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience."

DO NOT Fall into unbelief or you will not be Raptured.

Now as we examine the passages above in Matthew & Luke pay attention to the words Jesus used.

Lets look at it

We don't grind in America but they still do in the arabian villages in the middleeast and in Israel.
Two Grinding
Two in the field
Two in bed

You see we really should praise the Lord here because what this reveals is that Jesus knew about Time zones way back when that weren't discovered by man until much later. Because He has said there will be two working but also two sleeping. You see back in Jesus day when it was 6 o clock it was 5 or 6 everywhere. But in Syria & North Africa it was sunset.

Don't overlook these things study His word very diligently and pay attention it will reveal new things to you.

And another thing is that there's only certain seasons where you would be grinding at a mill or harvesting in a field.

That gives you a clue on the possible timing of His return.
They would only work in a field at Barley Harvest with is passover. Wheat Harvest which is Pentecost, and the final harvest which is Tabernacles those are the 3 main feasts which everybody MUST attend.
Spring, Summer, or Fall

Now let's examine
One Taken & The Other Left

Taken in Greek means to receive close to or receive near.

In John 14:2-3 Jesus says the following "In My Fathers house are many mansions; if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am there you may be also."

Left in Greek means to forsake or to leave. So the left are the ones forsaken by God.

Our Lord is coming.

Nice post. I do find this subject interesting and as a Christian I also belive in a pre-trib Rapture. However what I have always found more interesting is the idea that it seems more imortant to spend more time and energy on end times stuff than keeping your eyes on /Jesus in your day to day life.

For example the odds have always been that a much greater chance for you to meet Jesus will happen in your own lifetime by your own death as opposed to a Rapture even happing in your lifetime. Lets face the reality here we all die and most fie within 80 years or so at best. So from day one of birth you have at most been only 80 years away from seeing Jesus and many much much less than that. So for myself it seems like prioritys needs to be really looked at . Specualtion about the end times can be fun and exciting but when you die your going to be at that same place anyhow and you can die so quickly so that the event I put my money on the event called death which is always very close to us. Of course we are told by Gods word to always look and watch for the return of our Lord Jesus Christ an dthta return can really happen by your death.
God bless
Randy

Yukerboy
Nov 16th 2008, 02:12 AM
the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."

Who was taken away by the flood? Who was "left behind"?

I'm sure I am rehashing an old debate, but I don't stop in this forum often. I saw the heading on the Christ Life front page and couldn't help myself.

"Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn"

A very certain and specific chronological order here.

wocleader
Nov 16th 2008, 02:38 AM
Well if He takes me before the appointed time then I will be happy to go :)
God Bless

looking4jesus
Nov 16th 2008, 02:58 AM
Well if He takes me before the appointed time then I will be happy to go :)
God Bless

Yesme too! one way or the other we are all taken out

God bless
Randy

livingwaters
Nov 16th 2008, 03:11 AM
Thank you Jesus!!! WE are awaiting YOUR return, but if we should die first, we may see you sooner!!!!! Whichever comes first, Lord, I can't wait to fall on my face before you!!!!:cry::pp:saint:

DurbanDude
Nov 16th 2008, 05:03 AM
Some people believe the Lord will actually descend down to earth when we come but it says he calls us up to the clouds to MEET Him in the air. Now if He came down to earth and we went up we would break the scripture where it says "And thus will shall always be with the Lord."

.

I believe that on the Day of The Lord we will be raptured (at the first resurrection) and meet the Lord in the air. From that point on we will always be with the Lord. After meeting Jesus in the air there will be the remaining wrath upon the unbelievers on the earth , and then the procession of Jesus with us will land in Jerusalem , for the millenium. In this way we meet him in the air and then a short while later we all come down to earth without breaking any scripture.



And another thing is that there's only certain seasons where you would be grinding at a mill or harvesting in a field.

That gives you a clue on the possible timing of His return.
They would only work in a field at Barley Harvest with is passover. Wheat Harvest which is Pentecost, and the final harvest which is Tabernacles those are the 3 main feasts which everybody MUST attend.
Spring, Summer, or Fall

.

I was enjoying reading your logic here , but just reminding you that us in the Southern Hemisphere have our seasons the opposite to the northern hemisphere.

scourge39
Nov 16th 2008, 06:07 AM
The parable recorded in both Matthew 24:37-42 and Luke 17:34-36 isn't even trying to support a rapture (of any sort) at all. Both Matthew 24:36-51 and Luke 17:20-37 record the entire parable, not just the portions cited in the original post. Jesus is making a distinction between those caught unaware by a future unexpected outpouring of God's wrath and those expecting it who are spared. The ones 'taken' are the wicked who will experience wrath; the ones 'left' are those spared from it. That's why Jesus compares that period to the time of the flood. Those not expecting it and scoffing at its arrival were ultimately destroyed by it when it eventually came, while Noah believed it. Thus, he built the ark in preparation for it, which kept both he and his family safe through the entire deluge while the rest of creation outside was destroyed by it. Jesus is talking about the sudden arrival of God's wrath upon sinful humanity, saying that some will be living in light of it and ultimately be spared from judgment, while others not expecting its arrival will be swept away by it.

gpmosely
Nov 16th 2008, 06:26 AM
I've really tried to understand this Rapture docterine. I really cannot. I've truely tried. I'm sorry if this post offends some for my disagreement!

I firmly believe that those scriptures are stating that while one is in the field doing their jobs, as Christians, the other is off seeing the anti christ.

Jesus also said he who is last shall be first.

So that would indicate that Satan - or the anti-christ that comes first would in fact be the last one. Yet, the last one to come - Jesus is in fact First.

I think the anti christ will come first and so many people will be decieved by him they will leave their work in the field to go see him while the others who know that while they are in their flesh body's - the Lord Christ has not come back yet.

Also, In the new testiment Jesus says he would not under any circumstances change even an aota of the Law. So if he would not change the law, would he change what Ezekial says?

Ezekiel 13:20-Wherefore, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

The word ‘hunt’ in Hebrew means, "lie in wait; to catch men." (Strong’s #6678)
Ezekiel 13:21-Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My People out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

The word ‘hand’ in Hebrew means, "the open one indicating power." (Strong’s #3027)

Ezekiel 13:22-Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life.

The word ‘wicked’ in Hebrew means, "to be wrong." (Strong’s #7563 & #7561)

Just my reasoning :)

LookingUp
Nov 17th 2008, 03:11 AM
The parable recorded in both Matthew 24:37-42 and Luke 17:34-36 isn't even trying to support a rapture (of any sort) at all. Both Matthew 24:36-51 and Luke 17:20-37 record the entire parable, not just the portions cited in the original post. Jesus is making a distinction between those caught unaware by a future unexpected outpouring of God's wrath and those expecting it who are spared. The ones 'taken' are the wicked who will experience wrath; the ones 'left' are those spared from it. That's why Jesus compares that period to the time of the flood. Those not expecting it and scoffing at its arrival were ultimately destroyed by it when it eventually came, while Noah believed it. Thus, he built the ark in preparation for it, which kept both he and his family safe through the entire deluge while the rest of creation outside was destroyed by it. Jesus is talking about the sudden arrival of God's wrath upon sinful humanity, saying that some will be living in light of it and ultimately be spared from judgment, while others not expecting its arrival will be swept away by it.This is a nice post! :) I guess "accurate" is a better word for it! Anyway, thanks!

wocleader
Nov 17th 2008, 05:54 PM
Left in the greek means to forsake why would God forsake us?

David Taylor
Nov 17th 2008, 07:03 PM
Matthew and Luke when read together,
show who is taken, and where they are taken.

Luke explains most clearly, using the literary technique of parallel-redundancy to make his point, who is taken, and where they are taken.

Notice by simply restating the verses, and colorizing the parallel-redundancy, it is easy to see who is taken and where they are taken.

Matthew 24:37 "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until

the flood came, and took them all away;

so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the
one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the
one shall be taken, and the other left."



Luke 21:26-37
"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and

the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lotóthey were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom,

fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them alló so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.

Remember Lotís wife. Whoever seeks to preserve his life

will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it. I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed.

One will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together.

One will be taken and the other left." And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them,

"Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather."





Those who are taken, are taken to destruction.
The ones who remain, are the faithful ones.

Matthew 13:30 "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."


Matthew 13:49 "the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. "

RabbiKnife
Nov 17th 2008, 07:11 PM
I believe that on the Day of The Lord we will be raptured (at the first resurrection) and meet the Lord in the air. From that point on we will always be with the Lord. After meeting Jesus in the air there will be the remaining wrath upon the unbelievers on the earth , and then the procession of Jesus with us will land in Jerusalem , for the millenium. In this way we meet him in the air and then a short while later we all come down to earth without breaking any scripture.



I was enjoying reading your logic here , but just reminding you that us in the Southern Hemisphere have our seasons the opposite to the northern hemisphere.

So you'll get to go either six months earlier or six months later, maybe!

Or is the Rapture limited to physical Palestine...

scourge39
Nov 17th 2008, 08:03 PM
Left in the greek means to forsake why would God forsake us?

Paralambano ('taken') can mean either 'taken' to safety or 'taken' in judgment. Although Matthew's account doesn't specify its intended meaning, the surrounding context demands that it refers to being taken in judgment. All of the current Matthew and Luke commentators carefully point this out. R.T. France, who has written the most current Matthew commentary shows convincingly that the Dispensational view is being imposed on the text.

aphiemi means 'left alone,' not in the sense of abandonment, but rather that of being undisturbed. Meaning is determined by the larger context of a passage. Simple word studies usually result in 'root' fallacies, whereby the root of a given word is believed to always remain the same regardless of context. However, the meaning of some Greek words change substantially given the larger context of their use.

moonglow
Nov 17th 2008, 09:09 PM
wocleader: The Bible says that there will be mockers and scoffers of His return.
2 Peter 3:3- "Knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts.
Hebrews 4:11- Let us therefore enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience."

DO NOT Fall into unbelief or you will not be Raptured.

Are you saying we have to believe in the rapture or God will not rapture us?

I seriously hope that isn't what you are saying. Those verses you posted aren't in content and trying to use them to say you have to believe in the rapture to be raptured, it just wrong teaching! The only commandments Jesus gave us to follow have nothing to do with such things...there is no 'condition' on our salvation either...you make it sound as if God will simply abandon us for not believing in a theory and there is nothing in the bible that says this at all.

Lets look at the 2 Peter verse you posted IN content...seeing it in content gives us a clearer picture of what was meant:

2 Peter 3
God’s Promise Is Not Slack
1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

These 'scoffers' weren't Christians to start with...they scoffed at everything having to do with God. All of us believe Jesus will come again...the Second Coming...but not all of us believe in a rapture...so please don't call those of us of that don't believe in this idea, scoffers...you are calling us unsaved, nonbelievers and that just isn't true. We are all saved on here.

On the Hebrews passage is about losing faith in God...in Christ..it hasn't nothing to do with unbelief in a end times idea:

Hebrews 4
The Promise of Rest
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“ So I swore in My wrath,

‘ They shall not enter My rest,’”

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:


“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Lastly consider this parable:

Matthew 13

36 Then, leaving the crowds outside, Jesus went into the house. His disciples said, “Please explain to us the story of the weeds in the field.”

37 Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. 39 The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels.

40 “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!

If you and others want to believe there will be a rapture that is fine...I doubt anyone could change your mind, but don't condemn those of us that don't.

God bless

quiet dove
Nov 18th 2008, 01:50 AM
I think he is saying do not abandon faith in Christ.

immortality
Nov 18th 2008, 01:55 AM
there are many sincere christians, however, who do not believe in a "pretrib" rapture. just because they do not hold to a correct doctrinal belief does not exclude from participating in the rapture. likewise, there are a plethora of "foolish virgins" who believe in a pretrib rapture, but they are unkowingly ineligible to participate because they have forgotten one tiny thing: you have to actually be saved in the first place. if you don't have oil in your lamp, then you aren't going anywhere.

i would like to say that i don't believe the catching away/resurrection event, or "rapture", will transpire in the dramatic and sesationalistic fashion as is portrayed in the "left behind" series and such.

biblically, the purpose of the rapture is to protect true believers from the wrath of god. the harvesters (angels) will gather the wheat (genuine christians) and bring them into the barn (heaven) before the wrath of god is poured out. only when the elect are safe and secure in their "inner rooms", as described in isaiah 26:20, will god allow the cataclysmic events of "the day of the lord" to commence.

therefore, contrary the mainstream depictions of the rapture, this catching away/resurrection event will immediately precede the wrath of god. there will not be an undefined time period between the rapture and the wrath of god to allow those left behind to quietly ponder what has happened. the rapture is a rescue, and those taken make an escape.

i have sometimes thought that perhaps satan wants to make this biblical event appear to be so preposterous as possible (where people randomly disappear while driving their cars on the road consequently causing worldwide havoc, people's clothes remaining, etc) so that nonbelievers will refute it as bogus and believers themselves question the authenticity of it. if you step away from the false mainstream depictions and read the bible, its scriptures clearly paint a different, tangible and consequently more believable picture.

also, i've posted this numerous times on this forum, but for those who haven't read it, i encourage you to do so. it clearly portrays that the deceptive "new agers" have a plan to explain away this event in the very near future: http://www.redmoonrising.com/newage.htm

quiet dove
Nov 18th 2008, 02:13 AM
Two things for this thread.

One - End times view is not a salvation determiner. Jesus is the only name under heaven.....not pre trib or post trib.

Two - just because people hold a different view, do not tell them "read the Bible" insinuating that they are not or have not, or make any insinuations that they do not believe the Bible.

immortality
Nov 18th 2008, 02:18 AM
Two things for this thread.

One - End times view is not a salvation determiner. Jesus is the only name under heaven.....not pre trib or post trib.

Two - just because people hold a different view, do not tell them "read the Bible" insinuating that they are not or have not, or make any insinuations that they do not believe the Bible.


i'm going to take it this post is directed at me.

salvation is indeed not a matter of doctrine. also, nothing i said in my post was directed toward anyone on this forum.

quiet dove
Nov 18th 2008, 02:27 AM
i'm going to take it this post is directed at me.

salvation is indeed not a matter of doctrine. also, nothing i said in my post was directed toward anyone on this forum.

It was directed at the entire thread.

immortality
Nov 18th 2008, 02:56 AM
i'd like to add that one of the reasons i believe people who don't believe in this biblical catching away event is because they don't realize that if one is a genuine christian, then they are not of this world. they are in reality cosmic citizens, and co-heirs with the king of this universe. he has gone into the heavenly realms to prepare his true followers a dwelling place, and he will come back in the very near future to take them there. "...and so we shall always be with the lord."

personally, my perspective is this:

satan and his emissaries have long desired to make "heaven on earth". the false messiah (antichrist) may appear and attempt to lead the planet into a "golden age" after this present one is soon over with. this may very well be the "new world order".

so the situation, in my opinion, will be somewhat similar to a burglar attempting to steal a man's bike. the man knows that he never uses his lousy old bike, but rather his new sports car. therefore he is reluctant to give the burglar his trashy bike.

likewise, god will be happy to give satan and the unbelieving, sinful population planet earth, while his beloved children take their residence in the heavenly realms.

this would be revelation 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2012&version=9;) in action.

scourge39
Nov 18th 2008, 03:19 AM
Every Christian believes that they'll be 'caught up.' The word Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 means just that. However, nowhere does Paul mention 'going to heaven.' People read that into the verse. They simply have to do so in order to make the pre-trib understanding fit the passage. This world will be renewed and restored to its former glory, as it was before the fall. I believe that we'll be 'caught up' to meet Christ in midair to welcome him back to earth where he'll reign for eternity. Non-Dispensationalists simply reject the idea that the rapture will be both secret and sudden, and there is ample linguistic evidence for rejecting both of those concepts. It's not the rapture that we reject, just the way some people believe it will take place and when.

LookingUp
Nov 18th 2008, 03:43 AM
Every Christian believes that they'll be 'caught up.' The word Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 means just that. However, nowhere does Paul mention 'going to heaven.' People read that into the verse. They simply have to do so in order to make the pre-trib understanding fit the passage. This world will be renewed and restored to its former glory, as it was before the fall. I believe that we'll be 'caught up' to meet Christ in midair to welcome him back to earth where he'll reign for eternity. Non-Dispensationalists simply reject the idea that the rapture will be both secret and sudden, and there is ample linguistic evidence for rejecting both of those concepts. It's not the rapture that we reject, just the way some people believe it will take place and when.There is nothing in Scripture to suggest it's secret, but the destruction that takes place afterward is sudden for those who are left behind.

moonglow
Nov 18th 2008, 03:49 AM
Every Christian believes that they'll be 'caught up.' The word Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 means just that. However, nowhere does Paul mention 'going to heaven.' People read that into the verse. They simply have to do so in order to make the pre-trib understanding fit the passage. This world will be renewed and restored to its former glory, as it was before the fall. I believe that we'll be 'caught up' to meet Christ in midair to welcome him back to earth where he'll reign for eternity. Non-Dispensationalists simply reject the idea that the rapture will be both secret and sudden, and there is ample linguistic evidence for rejecting both of those concepts. It's not the rapture that we reject, just the way some people believe it will take place and when.

That is why the use of the word, 'rapture' has become so confusing anymore..it used to mean one thing...the rapture of the believers before the tribulation starts...now everyone uses this word when they really mean the resurrection...so why add to the confusion by saying rapture instead of resurrection? Of course we all believe a resurrection will happen...but I for instance, do not believe a 'rapture' will happen...not as I just described anyway. The use of the word rapture comes by a long complicated explanation for certain scriptures and it just seems it would make more sense to just say resurrection.

hope that made sense...

God Bless

moonglow
Nov 18th 2008, 03:58 AM
There is nothing in Scripture to suggest it's secret, but the destruction that takes place afterward is sudden for those who are left behind.

Well think about it...people have been hearing us warn them about this for many many years now...if all the Christians suddenly disappeared...planes falling out the sky, cars wrecking...all sorts of major disasters because of millions disappearing...I think that would be a pretty good warning and they wouldn't be taken by surprise actually. This alone actually would be catastrophe! Which is one of the reason I don't believe it will happen...I would think a major event like this would be mentioned in the bible...maybe listed along with one of the seals being broken. I mean image..planes crashing into building all over the world...nuclear plants melting down..fires started due to the wreckage...well if you read the Left Behind book..the first one or saw the movie you know what I mean. It would be an extremely major event! The world could not just recover from it in a day or two and everyone go back to doing their normal things...people certainly wouldn't be getting married and doing all their normal things....yet the bible says they will be and taken by surprise ...

How could the tribulation starting after this huge event surprise anyone?

God bless

threebigrocks
Nov 18th 2008, 03:58 AM
Obviously Jesus in these passages is speaking about The Rapture of the Church which is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18- "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus will shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

You are very correct. But - when is the trumpet of God sounded? When does Christ come on the clouds in order that we should meet Him, be caught up with, in the air? That does not happen until after the tribulation. That trumpet is the last trumpet, and Christ only comes this way in scripture once.

To say that 1 is taken and 1 is left behind is like the parable of the 10 virgins. 5 were prepaired and 5 were not. The 5 that were not were caught unprepaired. The door was shut because they had to go for more oil. That moment of the bridegrooms coming was unexpected. If they had know when He was gonna show up they wouldn't have been come upon like a thief in the night. When 1 is taken and 1 left it's showing being unprepaired at that unexpected moment the bridegroom shows up. Who was prepaired and waiting is taken. The other, or others, are left.

DurbanDude
Nov 18th 2008, 05:48 AM
So you'll get to go either six months earlier or six months later, maybe!

Or is the Rapture limited to physical Palestine...

Funny :lol:

Of course we will all go at the same time , but it may just be in the fourth season when Israel has no harvest, but us in the southern hemisphere are having our harvest. In other words it could happen in a northern hemisphere winter too , not just the northern hemisphere spring, summer, autumn as wocleader suggested.

scourge39
Nov 18th 2008, 06:13 AM
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18- "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus will shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

Notice that there is not one word in these verses suggesting that only the redeemed will hear or witness this event. That is why I reject any notion of a 'secret' rapture. If any of the Greek words Paul uses contained an inkling of such a concept, I would gladly accept it. But none of them suggest it and that would be a significant detail for Paul to leave out, if indeed it were true. We can't force passages to say things that they linguistically do not just because a certain teaching has many adherents. That's why all of the major commentators on 1 & 2 Thessalonians reject the 'secret' rapture theory. They're not trying to be killjoys or paint the average layperson as being ill-informed. Instead, they're simply trying to convey Paul's intended meaning based on the words he used.

DurbanDude
Nov 18th 2008, 09:58 AM
therefore, contrary the mainstream depictions of the rapture, this catching away/resurrection event will immediately precede the wrath of god. there will not be an undefined time period between the rapture and the wrath of god to allow those left behind to quietly ponder what has happened. the rapture is a rescue, and those taken make an escape.


This comment is one I totally believe, yet I am a post-tribber and not even pre-wrath. I believe we will be on earth through all the bowls of wrath , just like Christians have always been in countries which experience judgments and wars. Only on the day of the Lord will be "raptured" at the resurrection, and be spared from the final wrath on that day.

2 Thess
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thess
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall NOT come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

wocleader
Nov 19th 2008, 09:17 AM
I was not saying that those who don't believe in a pre-trib rapture wouldn't be raptured if you're saved you're going to get raptured.... I'm talking about losing faith in Christ and the rapture period..... I knew a guy that always said well it's not going to happen in my lifetime..... That's the wrong attitude to have because you should always be ready for it.....

wocleader
Nov 19th 2008, 09:21 AM
If you want to get technical I got the whole thing from an episode of perry stone's Manna-fest.... I just found it interesting and thought it was worth sharing and wanted some other Christians views on it.....

kenrank
Nov 19th 2008, 02:42 PM
Is it ok on these boards to be a believer in Messiah and not believe in pre-trib rapture? I am actually not all that sure we get whisked away at all, but I am still studying that end of it.

I don't believe there is a pre-trib rapture for many reasons. I must say first, if it can be shown that Messiah returns more than once, then what I will share is of no effect.

First, the parable of the wheat and tares. (Matt 13) The wheat is the children of the Kingdom of God, the tares, the children of the wicked one. Both "grow together" until the time of the harvest, which Messiah clarifies as being "the end of the world." So right there, both God's people and the children of the wicked are together, on earth, until the very end. Later in the chapter, Messiah "plain speaks" this parable and we find that the "tares" are taken first, not the wheat.

The return of Messiah is also likened to both the days of Lot and Noah. In Lot's case, he was in Sodom until "the day" the wrath was poured out. In Noah's case the same, and it should be noted that Noah wasn't removed from the earth, (nor was Lot for that matter) simply given an ark of protection.

In 1 Cor 15:52, we read, "in a moment, in the twinling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed."

In 1 Thes. 4:16-17, we read, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

When you look at these three verses, it if clear they are speaking of the same event. Yet, in the 1 Cor. verse, we see that this happens, "at the last trump." The word "trump," is:

sal'-pinxPerhaps from G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); a trumpet: - trump (-et).

It is translated as "trumpet" in all but 2 places in the NT, regardless, the context is clear that we are talking about a trumpet anyway. These I believe, correspond to the 7 trumpets being blown as seen in the book of Revelation. The 7th, or last trumpet, marks the end when God's wrath is poured out. So, at the "last" trumpet the dead in Messiah are raised, we are changed, and we meet Messiah in the air to one degree or another.

So both these verses and the parable of the wheat and tares point to us meeting Yahushua (Jesus) at the end of the tribulation, not the beginning. The evidence doesn't end there.

Matt. 24 has Messiah returning and him sending his angels to gather his elect "after the tribulation of those days, when the sun is darkened and the moon does not give her light. etc." Again, unless it can be shown that he returns more than once, this corresponds to the verses I shared above.

One final witness is Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, and Mark 13:13 which has the repeated phrase, "he that endures until the end shall be saved." Why would it say this, if we won't be here until the end to endure?

So what you do with this perspective is entirely up to you. I don't believe in hammering my views, which can be as faulty as the next guy. But, at times, another perspective can give us either a deeper understanding of scripture or strengthen the view you already hold dear.

Personally I think it points to a rapture, if there is one in the way we generally accept it, to be at the end of the tribulation, not at the beginning. You make your own conclusions.

I want to say too, don't fret if you ultimately see this as I do. We are not appointed to God's wrath. Just as Lot was removed before the wrath was poured on Sodom, and just as Noah was given an ark of safety just before the waters came, we too will be protected in that day.
Peace to you all.
Ken

kenrank
Nov 19th 2008, 02:53 PM
Two things for this thread.

One - End times view is not a salvation determiner. Jesus is the only name under heaven.....not pre trib or post trib.

Two - just because people hold a different view, do not tell them "read the Bible" insinuating that they are not or have not, or make any insinuations that they do not believe the Bible.


Well put! In the prophecy in Jer. 31:31-34 about the new covenant, we see in verse 33b - 34a, "After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:"

Notice where it says, "they shall teach no more every man his neighbor?" When Messiah returns, we are changed, made incorruptable. While I realize this includes a body of sorts like the one he returned with before his ascension, it also in part has to do with Torah (the Law) written on our hearts. With God's will or law written inside you, on your heart, we won't need to teach our brother because what we need to underdstand will be instilled in us.

Point is, since we do need to teach and learn as evidenced by these very boards, as well as the sermons we hear or classes we take to learn from...the law then is not fully written on our hearts. It is a work in progress. Therefore, we are still prone to error! Nobody will have every answer, nobody will be 100% correct 100% of the time. In fact, I dare say that there are doctrinal positions each of us hold dear that are wrong. We aren't perfect, we are still corruptable, it only makes sense.

So as long as we walk on the same general path, serving Messiah Yahushua (Jesus), we should consider ourselves brethren.
Peace.
Ken

quiet dove
Nov 19th 2008, 06:49 PM
Is it ok on these boards to be a believer in Messiah and not believe in pre-trib rapture?


:lol:
:hug: Yes, it's ok :hug:

kenrank
Nov 19th 2008, 07:09 PM
:lol:
:hug: Yes, it's ok :hug:

I know, I was being facetious. If we agreed on everything, there wouldn't be anything to talk about! ;)
Ken

threebigrocks
Nov 19th 2008, 09:02 PM
I know, I was being facetious. If we agreed on everything, there wouldn't be anything to talk about! ;)
Ken

And mods would be awfully bored! :D