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markedward
Nov 16th 2008, 06:37 AM
Generically speaking, I agree with the "Saved by grace" thing. It is a very obvious doctrine found in Paul's letters, and, though it is not given as much attention, it is still a doctrine found in the gospels.

But does "Saved by grace" mean that "Works" play no part? See for yourself what Scripture says men will be judged upon. Pay attention to the colored portions of the text.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

Matthew 25:31-46 according to their actions[/COLOR].]

Romans 2:5-10 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

According to these verses, people are judged according to their deeds. Scripture makes it clear: faith is what brings us salvation. People often get caught up over Jacob's statement that "faith without works is dead" and claim that he was saying we need to do good deeds to be saved. This is not the case. It's plain: salvation is through grace only. Belief and trust in Christ is all that is needed for salvation. But works are essential.

The one who is saved [I]is judged according to his works. But this does not mean he is saved or condemned according to his works.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

All will be judged according to their deeds. But Paul says clearly here, it is the believer's rewards or lack thereof that are determined upon their judgment. Salvation is by grace. Rewards are by works. And, as I am reading it, the one whose faith is "dead" because he has no works, well, perhaps this is the one who "will [still] be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames"? For as Christ said, "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." They may have no works, or may even be sinning intentionally, but if they still have faith in Christ for salvation, who are we to say that they won't be saved, but only as the "least in the kingdom"?

God's grace is powerful, so while there are Christians who do stupid things, and break God's commandments, they can still be saved so long as they still place their faith in Christ alone for salvation.

What does anyone think?

mikebr
Nov 16th 2008, 12:02 PM
The whole works thing divides people, 3300 denominations and growing, but yes I believe that we will be judged by our actions. I just happen to think it will be a good thing. Cleansing. Burning up the old man and placing me in a position to fully know God. The things that are wood, hay and stubble will give way to gold, silver and precious jewels.

All shall be well!

Walstib
Nov 16th 2008, 01:58 PM
Very close to how I understand things. Lots of agreement.

A comment on the Rev 20 passage,

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:5-6 KJV)

It seems to me there are a number of people who are already "priests of God" and elders not lining in Rev 20:12. Those who received the Holy Spirit while still alive I think.

....and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. (Rev 1:4-6 NKJV)

The saints themselves have some sort of part in judgment. What exactly is meant by "the world" I am not sure but certainly to the point of judging angels. Point being the saints have a special position at the end of days past lining up with everyone else.

Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? (1Co 6:2-3 NKJV)

Joe

Yukerboy
Nov 16th 2008, 03:06 PM
One thing I never noticed before until the OP was that Paul DEFINES having good works.

To those who by patience (endurance is a result of hope) in well-doing (works are produced by faith) seek for glory and honor and immortality(labor produced by love), he will give eternal life. This is what Paul defines as good works as he states later in the same passage that glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good.

steelerbabe
Nov 17th 2008, 02:38 AM
James 2 - 14-25


Faith and Deeds

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james+2#fen-NIV-30298d)]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james+2#fen-NIV-30301e)] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead

looking4jesus
Nov 17th 2008, 02:55 AM
Generically speaking, I agree with the "Saved by grace" thing. It is a very obvious doctrine found in Paul's letters, and, though it is not given as much attention, it is still a doctrine found in the gospels.

But does "Saved by grace" mean that "Works" play no part? See for yourself what Scripture says men will be judged upon. Pay attention to the colored portions of the text.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

Matthew 25:31-46 according to their actions[/COLOR].]

Romans 2:5-10 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

According to these verses, people are judged according to their deeds. Scripture makes it clear: faith is what brings us salvation. People often get caught up over Jacob's statement that "faith without works is dead" and claim that he was saying we need to do good deeds to be saved. This is not the case. It's plain: salvation is through grace only. Belief and trust in Christ is all that is needed for salvation. But works are essential.

The one who is saved [I]is judged according to his works. But this does not mean he is saved or condemned according to his works.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

All will be judged according to their deeds. But Paul says clearly here, it is the believer's rewards or lack thereof that are determined upon their judgment. Salvation is by grace. Rewards are by works. And, as I am reading it, the one whose faith is "dead" because he has no works, well, perhaps this is the one who "will [still] be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames"? For as Christ said, "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." They may have no works, or may even be sinning intentionally, but if they still have faith in Christ for salvation, who are we to say that they won't be saved, but only as the "least in the kingdom"?

God's grace is powerful, so while there are Christians who do stupid things, and break God's commandments, they can still be saved so long as they still place their faith in Christ alone for salvation.

What does anyone think?


This subject has always been very simple for me to understand but very diffcult for a lot of people. It is as clear as a bell that we are saved only by Grace. Works plays no part of it for if works did on our part then the cross of Jesus has no effect, Jesus never needed to come and die for us. It can only be by Grace. I also belive once your saved your saved you do not loose it ever! Now we are commanded to work out our own Salvation but look at the words work out..you cannot work out something you never had so here again your saved for good but you still need to work out just like a muscle in your body you have spiritual muscles so you can be lazy and flabby or you can work out your salvation which simply means the conditon of your rewards you will have when you meet our Lord Jesus Christ. This is where works comes in you are saved once and for all but now what are you going to do with it. For myself the whole idea that you can loose your salvation is of Satan. Yes you can walk away or turn your back but Jesus will not turn on you . The holy Spirit will reside inside you and seal your faith forever. You may go away from God for a long time but if you were truly saved from the get go then the Holy Spirit will bring you back into relationship if not then the Holy Spirit will simply take you out of the world to sin no more and make a bigger mess of things. I know I was born again 30 year sago and for 25 years I was walking away from Jesus doing my own thing but God never once left me that is how strong Gods promise is for us. No it is never a licenses to sin but it is a wonderful promise that God will never forsake you and God knows all his sheep. It is all pure Grace lest any man should boast. Now I only hope that Butch will leave this post alone. please Butch I know it is your like misson to attack the OSAS belief but give me a break here ok it gets way to old and tiring to debate this issue till the cows come home.
God Bless
Randy

markedward
Nov 17th 2008, 03:07 AM
Now I only hope that Butch will leave this post alone. please Butch I know it is your like misson to attack the OSAS belief but give me a break here ok it gets way to old and tiring to debate this issue till the cows come home.1) This thread had nothing to do with OSAS/NOSAS. It had to do with grace/works. They're not the same topic.

2) You were the one to bring up the OSAS/NOSAS, and you directly stated that NOSAS was "of Satan". You were the one "attacking" a belief, so I think it's a bit hypocritical to singularly target Butch, especially since Butch hadn't even posted in this thread.

3) You say "don't debate this issue", yet that's exactly what you were doing...

Butch5
Nov 17th 2008, 04:05 AM
Generically speaking, I agree with the "Saved by grace" thing. It is a very obvious doctrine found in Paul's letters, and, though it is not given as much attention, it is still a doctrine found in the gospels.

But does "Saved by grace" mean that "Works" play no part? See for yourself what Scripture says men will be judged upon. Pay attention to the colored portions of the text.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

Matthew 25:31-46 according to their actions[/COLOR].]

Romans 2:5-10 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

According to these verses, people are judged according to their deeds. Scripture makes it clear: faith is what brings us salvation. People often get caught up over Jacob's statement that "faith without works is dead" and claim that he was saying we need to do good deeds to be saved. This is not the case. It's plain: salvation is through grace only. Belief and trust in Christ is all that is needed for salvation. But works are essential.

The one who is saved [I]is judged according to his works. But this does not mean he is saved or condemned according to his works.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

All will be judged according to their deeds. But Paul says clearly here, it is the believer's rewards or lack thereof that are determined upon their judgment. Salvation is by grace. Rewards are by works. And, as I am reading it, the one whose faith is "dead" because he has no works, well, perhaps this is the one who "will [still] be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames"? For as Christ said, "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." They may have no works, or may even be sinning intentionally, but if they still have faith in Christ for salvation, who are we to say that they won't be saved, but only as the "least in the kingdom"?

God's grace is powerful, so while there are Christians who do stupid things, and break God's commandments, they can still be saved so long as they still place their faith in Christ alone for salvation.

What does anyone think?

Hi Markedward,

Generally you are correct, however notice that in the Matthew 25 passage that you quoted, only those who did the works were counted righteous and enter into eternal life. Those who did not do the works went into everlasting punishment. This "MUST" mean that the works will either result in salvation or damnation, there is no other option. The reward is eternal life or hell.

When we are initially saved it is by grace through faith, no works. However, once we are saved we are required to do good works. Salvation is spoken of in the Scriptures is 3 tenses, past, present, and future. When we are initially saved by grace, no works), we are in a relationship with God. This is just the beginning. Jesus speaks of being saved in the future tense, when He says,

Mark 13:13 ( YLT ) 13and ye shall be hated by all because of my name, but he who hath endured to the end—he shall be saved.

This is speaking of the ultimate salvation at the judgment, this is when everyone is "actually" saved. So, in order to be saved at this time we must have good works. This is the salvation that Jesus is speaking of in Matthew 25. If there are no good works at this time then this believer will not be saved.

Also if you look at the passage in 1 Corinthians, you will see that it is referring to teachers and not everyday Christians. The context is the divisions in hte church at Corinth, Paul is explaining how he had grace as a master builder and laid the foundation of the Corinthian church which is Christ. Then he says that Apollos watered and God gave the increase. Notice Paul says, if any man builds on this foundation (which he has laid and Apollos has watered) of gold silver or precious stones, he will be rewarded. However if any man builds with wood, hay, or stubble, his works will be burned up, but he himself will be saved. This is "not" a reference saying that if a Christian has works that are burned up he will still be saved, that is not the context that Paul is speaking here.

RogerW
Nov 17th 2008, 04:44 AM
Generically speaking, I agree with the "Saved by grace" thing. It is a very obvious doctrine found in Paul's letters, and, though it is not given as much attention, it is still a doctrine found in the gospels.

But does "Saved by grace" mean that "Works" play no part? See for yourself what Scripture says men will be judged upon. Pay attention to the colored portions of the text.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

Matthew 25:31-46 according to their actions[/COLOR].]

Romans 2:5-10 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

According to these verses, people are judged according to their deeds. Scripture makes it clear: faith is what brings us salvation. People often get caught up over Jacob's statement that "faith without works is dead" and claim that he was saying we need to do good deeds to be saved. This is not the case. It's plain: salvation is through grace only. Belief and trust in Christ is all that is needed for salvation. But works are essential.

The one who is saved [I]is judged according to his works. But this does not mean he is saved or condemned according to his works.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

All will be judged according to their deeds. But Paul says clearly here, it is the believer's rewards or lack thereof that are determined upon their judgment. Salvation is by grace. Rewards are by works. And, as I am reading it, the one whose faith is "dead" because he has no works, well, perhaps this is the one who "will [still] be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames"? For as Christ said, "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." They may have no works, or may even be sinning intentionally, but if they still have faith in Christ for salvation, who are we to say that they won't be saved, but only as the "least in the kingdom"?

God's grace is powerful, so while there are Christians who do stupid things, and break God's commandments, they can still be saved so long as they still place their faith in Christ alone for salvation.

What does anyone think?

Greetings Markedward,

If I am wearing my body of death at the Judgment Throne, I am in big trouble, and there is no hope for me.

But if I appear at the Judgment Throne wearing the righteousness of Christ, and my body of death has been changed from mortal to immortality, and corruption to incorruption then I can rest assured that I will not be judged for what I did in my body of death.

How can believers be judged for things done in our bodies since our bodies are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God? Any bad thing we have done was forgiven through Christ, and any good thing we have done was through the power of the Holy Spirit in us.

Christ tells us that at the Judgment He will divide the sheep (believers) and the goats (unbelievers). The believers will be on His right hand and unbelievers on His left. (Mt 25:33) The right hand signifies salvation (Ps 16:11; 17:7; 18:35; 20:6; 72:23; Isa 41:10).

We are also told that believers bodies will be changed into glorified spiritual, incorruptible, immortal bodies at His coming. (1Co 15:51-54) It is in these new bodies that we appear at the Judgment.

When the books are opened at the Judgment, it is the "dead" who are judged by the things written in the books. (Rev 20:12) But God is not a God of the dead, but the living. (Mt 22:32; Mr 12:27; Lu 20:38)

So who is judged and in what body are they judged?

1. Believers appear at the Judgment clothed in the righteousness of Christ, wearing glorified spiritual immortal incorruptible bodies.
2. Believers are on the right hand of the Lord, because Christ was judged in their place.
3. Believers are not judged, only the dead are judged according to what they have done in their bodies of death.
4. Believers receive their eternal reward, but have no fear of judgment and condemnation.

Many Blessings,
RW

markedward
Nov 17th 2008, 05:06 AM
Matthew 16:27 describes the same type of event that we commonly call "the rapture", which I'm sure you'd agree involves people who are still alive when they are "caught up". So even those "who are left alive" would be included in the event described in Matthew 16:27 are included in this judgment "according to what [each man] has done."

Rufus_1611
Nov 17th 2008, 05:21 AM
...

What does anyone think?

What I think is, eternal salvation is by grace through faith alone. This is a free gift of God and once accepted can never be taken away.

I think you're right on to point out the judgement seat of Christ and that all men will be judged according to the things done in their body whether they be good or bad. This shows that the JSOC is about rewards and position in the Kingdom of God and later in eternity. The thing I believe is missed is this. Rewards are not always positive, rewards can be negative.


For example: "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:" - 2 Timothy 4:14
We see these these rewards played out in a number of the parables. For instance, you have the parables in Matthew 25 and Luke 19. You have a Lord (Jesus Christ) who has servants (saved believers), some of these servants are rewarded postively and some of these servants are rewarded negatively, according to that which they've done.

Bottom-line is this. All who are saved by the finished work of Christ on the cross are saved eternally by grace. However, there is a race to be run and a prize to be won and this prize is to reign with Jesus Christ during the Millenial Reign of Christ / Kingdom of God / Kingdom of Heaven. This reward is not based on the works of Jesus Christ but the works of the servants of Jesus Christ. At the JSOC Jesus will reward His profitable servants with a "well done though good and faithful servant" and will count them worthy to reign over cities according to their works. The unprofitable servants Jesus will cut asunder and they will miss the millenial kingdom, yet enter into eternity once the millenium is over. Therefore, eternal salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. However, the inheritance of the Kingdom is by faith+works.


"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6

Vhayes
Nov 17th 2008, 05:24 AM
Great day in the mornin' -

Rufus, you and I AGREE on something???

Great post, by the way!
V

Rufus_1611
Nov 17th 2008, 05:32 AM
Great day in the mornin' -

Rufus, you and I AGREE on something???

Great post, by the way!
V

I'm pretty certain this wasn't the first time :)

Thank you for your kind words.

Ashley274
Nov 17th 2008, 05:36 AM
What I think is, eternal salvation is by grace through faith alone. This is a free gift of God and once accepted can never be taken away.

I think you're right on to point out the judgement seat of Christ and that all men will be judged according to the things done in their body whether they be good or bad. This shows that the JSOC is about rewards and position in the Kingdom of God and later in eternity. The thing I believe is missed is this. Rewards are not always positive, rewards can be negative.

For example: "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:" - 2 Timothy 4:14
We see these these rewards played out in a number of the parables. For instance, you have the parables in Matthew 25 and Luke 19. You have a Lord (Jesus Christ) who has servants (saved believers), some of these servants are rewarded postively and some of these servants are rewarded negatively, according to that which they've done.

Bottom-line is this. All who are saved by the finished work of Christ on the cross are saved eternally by grace. However, there is a race to be run and a prize to be won and this prize is to reign with Jesus Christ during the Millenial Reign of Christ / Kingdom of God / Kingdom of Heaven. This reward is not based on the works of Jesus Christ but the works of the servants of Jesus Christ. At the JSOC Jesus will reward His profitable servants with a "well done though good and faithful servant" and will count them worthy to reign over cities according to their works. The unprofitable servants Jesus will cut asunder and they will miss the millenial kingdom, yet enter into eternity once the millenium is over. Therefore, eternal salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. However, the inheritance of the Kingdom is by faith+works.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6



Well said there are also crowns to be given we are to run the race..special standings.....but it is faith that saves by Grace and not just works.....but works come from the Spirit through that faith..How awesome is our God :pp

chad
Nov 17th 2008, 12:09 PM
Romans speaks of 2 types righteousness.

Righteousness achieved from works and Righteousness achieved apart from works. So both types exist in Romans chapter 4.


Righteousness by works.
In Romans it speaks of Abraham being justified by works in the OT, which was credited to him as righteousness.

(Rom 4:2 NIV) If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.

(Rom 4:3 NIV) What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."


Righteousness apart from works.
But in the NT, Paul shows us, that we are credited righteousness apart from works through our faith in Jesus Christ.

(Rom 4:6 NIV) David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

(Rom 4:7 NIV) "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.

(Rom 4:8 NIV) Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."


We also are credited righteousness , because of our faith in Jesus Christ. (Romans 4:22-Romans 5:1)

We have been justified by the blood of Jesus.

(Rom 5:9 NIV) Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

Our Righteousness comes from faith not by works Romans 9:30-32.


The NT also mentions work. This work is different from the work mentioned in Romans Chapter 4&5. This relates to the work that is done in the church (A separate issue, from righteousness).

Just look for all the verses which contain the word, 'work' in the NT.

(Romans 16:12; 1 Cor 3:12-13; 1 Cor 4:12; 1Cor 9:1; 1 Cor 9:6; 1 Cor 15:58; 1 Cor 16:9-10; 1 Cor 16:16; 2 Cor 1:24; 2 Cor 6:5; 2 Cor 8:11; 2 Cor 9:8; 2 Cor 10:15-16; Gal 2:8; Phil 2:22; Phil 2:30; Col 3:23; 1 Th 5:12-13; etc…)

This other type of work is what we will be rewarded for.

(1 Pet 1:17 NIV) Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

(Rev 22:12 KJV) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

(Rev 22:12 NIV) "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

So in my opinion, righteousness does not come through our works, but by faith.
But there is a different type of work which we do - 'the work apart from righteousness' – that we will be rewarded for.

Not sure if I explained it clearly. I hope I did. :confused


Chad. :rolleyes:

Yukerboy
Nov 17th 2008, 04:21 PM
1 Thessalonians 1:3 We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Works are a direct result and produced by faith. Labor preceded by love. Endurance inspired by hope.

If you have true faith, you can't help but to have works. Faith without works is dead because faith that results in having no works cannot be true faith.

Veretax
Nov 17th 2008, 06:23 PM
I posted this in another thread and think it applies:


The NKJV reads as follows:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Salvation is a Gift of God, not of Works, and certainly not of ourselves. Therefore if we preach any salvation which requires works, which would be of ourselves, then we preach an entirely different Gospel than Paul was preaching. Now. WHo is the "We" in Verse 10? It is those who are saved. We are his workmanship, and the we who are saved are Created in Christ Jesus. For what? FOr Good works? See there is a difference between saying that I must have faith, but my Good works keep me saved, as you have said, and doing what James said

JAmes 2

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

What is James saying? How exactly do you show your faith without works? Is that even possible? James wasn't done in verse 18 though.

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Faith without works is dead? Interesting. Now there are two ways to read this passage one that works keep faith alive as you have said, or two, simply that faith without works is in essence a dead (and utterly useless and empty) faith.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Man is justified before man by works, for only God can know the heart of man. God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac and he was about to before God intervened. This was before the Law of Moses, but clearly Abraham knew that God would provide a way and would not ask this of him if he did not intend to redeem isaac. That's faith, and knowing that, having that faith, he followed through and did what was commanded because he had no doubts of his Lord. And what happened? God provided a substitute, and the test confirmed Abraham's faith in God. Works show to men outwardly what we believe inwardly.

Now we are Christians, and when we come to salvation we are a new creature, as EPH 10 Says, we are created in Christ Jesus, For a Purpose, to do good works. Why? So that our Testimony, which encompasses all of our actions and words would draw others to him. Works do not confirm Salvation, they make manifest the reality of a True saving faith.

Veretax
Nov 17th 2008, 06:25 PM
1) This thread had nothing to do with OSAS/NOSAS. It had to do with grace/works. They're not the same topic.

2) You were the one to bring up the OSAS/NOSAS, and you directly stated that NOSAS was "of Satan". You were the one "attacking" a belief, so I think it's a bit hypocritical to singularly target Butch, especially since Butch hadn't even posted in this thread.

3) You say "don't debate this issue", yet that's exactly what you were doing...

I'm going to argue that the two are interlinked, because if you can lose your salvation, that implies that you have to do something to maintain it (NOSAS) where as if its the gift of God and you can't lose it then there is no need to "maintain" it. So I disagree that the OSAS argument is not linked here. It is.

John146
Nov 17th 2008, 07:01 PM
Hi Markedward,

Generally you are correct, however notice that in the Matthew 25 passage that you quoted, only those who did the works were counted righteous and enter into eternal life. Those who did not do the works went into everlasting punishment. This "MUST" mean that the works will either result in salvation or damnation, there is no other option. The reward is eternal life or hell.

When we are initially saved it is by grace through faith, no works. However, once we are saved we are required to do good works. Salvation is spoken of in the Scriptures is 3 tenses, past, present, and future. When we are initially saved by grace, no works), we are in a relationship with God. This is just the beginning. Jesus speaks of being saved in the future tense, when He says,

Mark 13:13 ( YLT ) 13and ye shall be hated by all because of my name, but he who hath endured to the end—he shall be saved.

This is speaking of the ultimate salvation at the judgment, this is when everyone is "actually" saved. So, in order to be saved at this time we must have good works. This is the salvation that Jesus is speaking of in Matthew 25. If there are no good works at this time then this believer will not be saved.

Also if you look at the passage in 1 Corinthians, you will see that it is referring to teachers and not everyday Christians. The context is the divisions in hte church at Corinth, Paul is explaining how he had grace as a master builder and laid the foundation of the Corinthian church which is Christ. Then he says that Apollos watered and God gave the increase. Notice Paul says, if any man builds on this foundation (which he has laid and Apollos has watered) of gold silver or precious stones, he will be rewarded. However if any man builds with wood, hay, or stubble, his works will be burned up, but he himself will be saved. This is "not" a reference saying that if a Christian has works that are burned up he will still be saved, that is not the context that Paul is speaking here.So, how many good works exactly does a person need to do in order to be saved in the end? One? Five? Ten? More than ten? Surely, you would be able to answer this question specifically if what you're saying was true.

RogerW
Nov 17th 2008, 08:49 PM
Matthew 16:27 describes the same type of event that we commonly call "the rapture", which I'm sure you'd agree involves people who are still alive when they are "caught up". So even those "who are left alive" would be included in the event described in Matthew 16:27 are included in this judgment "according to what [each man] has done."

I'm not sure if this was directed to me, but Mt 16:27 is speaking of the Judgment in the fullness of time. All humanity will appear before the Judgment Throne, those in Christ will be there to receive their full reward (singular reward), eternal life and those in unbelief (the dead) will be judged for how they lived in the body of death (flesh). Their judgment will be the lake of fire.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 17th 2008, 08:51 PM
What I think is, eternal salvation is by grace through faith alone. This is a free gift of God and once accepted can never be taken away.

I think you're right on to point out the judgement seat of Christ and that all men will be judged according to the things done in their body whether they be good or bad. This shows that the JSOC is about rewards and position in the Kingdom of God and later in eternity. The thing I believe is missed is this. Rewards are not always positive, rewards can be negative.

For example: "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:" - 2 Timothy 4:14
We see these these rewards played out in a number of the parables. For instance, you have the parables in Matthew 25 and Luke 19. You have a Lord (Jesus Christ) who has servants (saved believers), some of these servants are rewarded postively and some of these servants are rewarded negatively, according to that which they've done.

Bottom-line is this. All who are saved by the finished work of Christ on the cross are saved eternally by grace. However, there is a race to be run and a prize to be won and this prize is to reign with Jesus Christ during the Millenial Reign of Christ / Kingdom of God / Kingdom of Heaven. This reward is not based on the works of Jesus Christ but the works of the servants of Jesus Christ. At the JSOC Jesus will reward His profitable servants with a "well done though good and faithful servant" and will count them worthy to reign over cities according to their works. The unprofitable servants Jesus will cut asunder and they will miss the millenial kingdom, yet enter into eternity once the millenium is over. Therefore, eternal salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. However, the inheritance of the Kingdom is by faith+works.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6


When Scripture speaks of the eternal inheritance every believer will recieve, it never speaks of reward(s) as many, but always as a single reward.

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 17th 2008, 08:55 PM
Well said there are also crowns to be given we are to run the race..special standings.....but it is faith that saves by Grace and not just works.....but works come from the Spirit through that faith..How awesome is our God :pp

Are there crown(s) or a single incorruptible crown of rejoicing, of righteousness, of life, of glory?

Re 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Many Blessings,
RW

Gulah Papyrus
Nov 17th 2008, 09:56 PM
The idea that there is ANYTHING we can do outside of our faith in Christ to gain salvation, or that is necessary for salvation, just doesn't fit IMHO.

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

For those who disagree, please define 'works' for me...an honest request.

mikebr
Nov 17th 2008, 11:18 PM
The idea that there is ANYTHING we can do outside of our faith in Christ to gain salvation, or that is necessary for salvation, just doesn't fit IMHO.

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

For those who disagree, please define 'works' for me...an honest request.


28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


I'm pretty sure He didn't mean it though.:B

drew
Nov 18th 2008, 12:27 AM
..., those in Christ will be there to receive their full reward (singular reward), eternal life and those in unbelief (the dead) will be judged for how they lived in the body of death (flesh).
This cannot be what Christ intends us to understand. 2 Corinthians 5:9-10 shows that both believers and non-believers will be judged according to the works they have done "in the body"

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

We have been down this road before.

1. In verse 9 Paul exhorts believers to please God while in the body;

2. Paul says that there is a "we" who will be judged according to what is done "in the body";

3. Therefore, Paul must intend us to understand that the redeemed will be judged according to things done in the body. No competent writer would exhort believers to please God while we are "in the body" and then immediately make a "because" or "for" statement of the form "for we will receive according to what is done in the body", without intending the reader to think that the redeemed, the very ones who are exhorted to live well in the body, will come under this judgement.

Gulah Papyrus
Nov 18th 2008, 12:55 AM
Well, if works are necessary for salvation and what I thought I had put in Christs hands is now back in my own, then I don't have a prayer.

If there is a way to screw this up while maintaining my faith, then a dirty rags, wretched sinner like me will certainly find it...guaranteed.:(

Which brings me to this question. If works are necessary, which particular works would qualify...and how many acts of each does it take to satisfy the requirement? I sure wouldn't want to come up one 'work' short.:eek:;)

Veretax
Nov 18th 2008, 12:58 AM
Well, if works are necessary for salvation and what I thought I had put in Christs hands is now back in my own, then I don't have a prayer.

If there is a way to screw this up while maintaining my faith, then a dirty rags, wretched sinner like me will certainly find it...guaranteed.:(

Which brings me to this question. If works are necessary, which particular works would qualify...and how many acts of each does it take to satisfy the requirement? I sure wouldn't want to come up one 'work' short.:eek:;)


Both believers and unbelievers are judged for their actions, but for believers this is not about salvation, it is about eternal rewards beyond salvation.

mikebr
Nov 18th 2008, 01:17 AM
Both believers and unbelievers are judged for their actions, but for believers this is not about salvation, it is about eternal rewards beyond salvation.

What exactly will the rewards be. Crowns? Do you really believe that we will physically hand crowns over to Jesus. Jesus is the only reward I want or need. And as for streets of gold and mansions, I simply don't want them. I'd rather have Jesus. God in the flesh that I can put my hands on, watch Him smile and welcome me home.

Gulah Papyrus
Nov 18th 2008, 01:26 AM
Both believers and unbelievers are judged for their actions, but for believers this is not about salvation, it is about eternal rewards beyond salvation.So we're talking about levels of salvation?

To live is Christ, to die is gain...but the amount of gain depends on how many good work smiley faces you get? So then, can you be a better sinner than this guy, but not as good as that guy? Doesn't that put us right back where we started? Isn't this the bondage that Christ's death on the cross released us from? Struggling to live up to some expectation that is beyond our ability and nature?

Can you give me an example of a good work? Are there great works? How about pretty good works? Or maybe 'I've seen better' works?

Good works compared to what? Compared to who?

I don't understand!:B:B:B

:help:

Gulah Papyrus
Nov 18th 2008, 01:30 AM
What exactly will the rewards be. Crowns? Do you really believe that we will physically hand crowns over to Jesus. Jesus is the only reward I want or need. And as for streets of gold and mansions, I simply don't want them. I'd rather have Jesus. God in the flesh that I can put my hands on, watch Him smile and welcome me home.

I'm with Squidward on this one :yes:, His presence is all I ask for and all I need, and to desire more than that seems to go against everything that the Holy Spirit has shown me to date.

mikebr
Nov 18th 2008, 01:34 AM
Simply put there are still people eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. There are still older brothers who get mad because the filthy, stinkin', rotten, whoremongerin', slop eatin', drunkard prodigal gets to eat at the Father's table without even explaining himself.

You better be careful brother, Dad's had that robe a long time. Is that a spot I see on it, maybe a little barbecue sauce?

That ring looks a little dull, Daddy always kept that thing shiny.

Is that more pig poo on Daddy's shoes?

I am made righteous. That's reward enough.
I am made whole. That's reward enough.
I am loved by the Father. That is reward enough.
I'm full off the Father's food. That is reward enough.

markedward
Nov 18th 2008, 01:36 AM
Before trying to figure out a "scale" of good works...

Try dealing with the Scriptures first. Read the verses I posted in the OP. I'll reiterate their numbers here, in case you want to grab your own Bible: Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:31-46, Romans 2:5-10, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:11-15.

Let's all try to answer some questions first, in relation to the verses I posted in the OP.

First
Do these verses teach or not teach that people will be judged according to works/deeds/actions to any extent?

Second
If these verses do teach that people will be judged according to works/deeds/actions, does that necessarily mean the verses teach that people are saved according to those works/deeds/actions?

Do not simply reply with "salvation by works is heresy!" Actually read the verses and respond to these two questions.

drew
Nov 18th 2008, 01:37 AM
Both believers and unbelievers are judged for their actions, but for believers this is not about salvation, it is about eternal rewards beyond salvation.
This is not what Paul says here in Romans 2:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-27954a)] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I am convinced that Paul means what he says.

mikebr
Nov 18th 2008, 01:41 AM
Before trying to figure out a "scale" of good works...

Try dealing with the Scriptures first. Read the verses I posted in the OP. I'll reiterate their numbers here, in case you want to grab your own Bible: Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:31-46, Romans 2:5-10, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:11-15.

Let's all try to answer some questions first, in relation to the verses I posted in the OP.

First
Do these verses teach or not teach that people will be judged according to works/deeds/actions to any extent?

Second
If these verses do teach that people will be judged according to works/deeds/actions, does that necessarily mean the verses teach that people are saved according to those works/deeds/actions?

Do not simply reply with "salvation by works is heresy!" Actually read the verses and respond to these two questions.

I teach school. I judge children daily on their works. I do it without any condemnation at all.

markedward
Nov 18th 2008, 01:50 AM
A) Be more elaborate. Use the Scriptures provided, or more, if you know of any that are related to the topic. If you're going to respond with an analogy, actually put the effort into comparing that analogy to Scripture and explain why you think that analogy is an accurate representation of Scripture. Otherwise, your contribution doesn't really help bring any clarification to the discussion.

B) You did not answer either of the questions I asked. If you're going to reply to me (I'm assuming you did, since you quoted my post), could you please have the courtesy of responding to the questions with answers related to the questions?

Again:
Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:31-46, Romans 2:5-10, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:11-15.

First
Do these verses teach or not teach that people will be judged according to works/deeds/actions to any extent?

Second
If these verses do teach that people will be judged according to works/deeds/actions, does that necessarily mean the verses teach that people are saved according to those works/deeds/actions?

mikebr
Nov 18th 2008, 01:58 AM
Before trying to figure out a "scale" of good works...

Try dealing with the Scriptures first. Read the verses I posted in the OP. I'll reiterate their numbers here, in case you want to grab your own Bible: Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:31-46, Romans 2:5-10, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:11-15.

Let's all try to answer some questions first, in relation to the verses I posted in the OP.

First
Do these verses teach or not teach that people will be judged according to works/deeds/actions to any extent?

Second
If these verses do teach that people will be judged according to works/deeds/actions, does that necessarily mean the verses teach that people are saved according to those works/deeds/actions?

Do not simply reply with "salvation by works is heresy!" Actually read the verses and respond to these two questions.


First-Yes I believe that those verses teach that people will be judged according to what they do in the flesh. I believe that there will be those things that will be burned up "Wood, hay and stubble" and there will be those actions that will be purified as gold, hay and precious jewels.

Don't you think that you could possibly have done some things that need to be purged from you?

Second-Does that necessarily mean that the verses teach people are saved according to those works/deeds/actions?

No, you have to read scripture through a certain set of lens to get that. Again according to which tree your eating from or which brother you happen to be.

mikebr
Nov 18th 2008, 02:00 AM
Simply put there are still people eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. There are still older brothers who get mad because the filthy, stinkin', rotten, whoremongerin', slop eatin', drunkard prodigal gets to eat at the Father's table without even explaining himself.

You better be careful brother, Dad's had that robe a long time. Is that a spot I see on it, maybe a little barbecue sauce?

That ring looks a little dull, Daddy always kept that thing shiny.

Is that more pig poo on Daddy's shoes?

I am made righteous. That's reward enough.
I am made whole. That's reward enough.
I am loved by the Father. That is reward enough.
I'm full off the Father's food. That is reward enough.

Maybe you missed this?

markedward
Nov 18th 2008, 02:08 AM
I didn't miss your post. I read it. And I think that it relies more on an individual's idea of what God does, rather than actually appealing to Scripture.

But your more recent post does bring a good contribution to the discussion:


I believe that there will be those things that will be burned up "Wood, hay and stubble" and there will be those actions that will be purified as gold, hay and precious jewels.Could you clarify this? What specifically are you referring to when you say "those things will be burned up" and "those actions that will be purified"? The unsaved and the saved? Or the saved who have done bad things and the saved who have done good things?


Don't you think that you could possibly have done some things that need to be purged from you?Doesn't this fall into the category of "purgatory"? If I'm forgiven of my sins, I'm considered clean.

mikebr
Nov 18th 2008, 02:17 AM
I didn't miss your post. I read it. And I think that it relies more on an individual's idea of what God does, rather than actually appealing to Scripture.

But your more recent post does bring a good contribution to the discussion:

Could you clarify this? What specifically are you referring to when you say "those things will be burned up" and "those actions that will be purified"? The unsaved and the saved? Or the saved who have done bad things and the saved who have done good things?

Doesn't this fall into the category of "purgatory"? If I'm forgiven of my sins, I'm considered clean.

I'm not sure I can clarify it to your satisfaction. I believe we have fundamental differences in how we see God therefore any thing I say will only lead to further arguement. I will post some scripture that I think applies.

and yes you are considered clean.

markedward
Nov 18th 2008, 02:21 AM
I'm not sure I can clarify it to your satisfaction. I believe we have fundamental differences in how we see God therefore any thing I say will only lead to further arguement. I will post some scripture that I think applies.I'm not treating this as an argument. I use it as a way to learn, both about Scripture, and about other ideas.

If you don't want to clarify it, that's fine with me, but I don't think it would be too difficult to do so. My previous question wasn't, at least.

mikebr
Nov 18th 2008, 02:26 AM
I'm not treating this as an argument. I use it as a way to learn, both about Scripture, and about other ideas.

If you don't want to clarify it, that's fine with me, but I don't think it would be too difficult to do so. My previous question wasn't, at least.



21God made him who had no sin to be sin[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+5:21#fen-NIV-28883a)] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

“Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.” Luke 3:17

“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” Hebrews 9:14


Bed time. I'll post more later. Good night.

Gulah Papyrus
Nov 18th 2008, 02:28 AM
First
Do these verses teach or not teach that people will be judged according to works/deeds/actions to any extent?

Second
If these verses do teach that people will be judged according to works/deeds/actions, does that necessarily mean the verses teach that people are saved according to those works/deeds/actions?

We will be judged, but we will not be required to pay the fine...it's already been taken care of.:pp

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 02:35 AM
So, how many good works exactly does a person need to do in order to be saved in the end? One? Five? Ten? More than ten? Surely, you would be able to answer this question specifically if what you're saying was true.

Your argument is fallacious. How many hairs does it take to make a beard? 1, 100 ,1000, 10,000? What is cold? is 60 degrees cold, but 61 degrees not cold? The answer is there is not set number, it is a matter of the heart, you are either doing them or you are not.

doppelganger
Nov 18th 2008, 03:00 AM
Romans speaks of 2 types righteousness.

Righteousness achieved from works and Righteousness achieved apart from works. So both types exist in Romans chapter 4.


Righteousness by works.
In Romans it speaks of Abraham being justified by works in the OT, which was credited to him as righteousness.

(Rom 4:2 NIV) If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.

(Rom 4:3 NIV) What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."


Righteousness apart from works.
But in the NT, Paul shows us, that we are credited righteousness apart from works through our faith in Jesus Christ.

(Rom 4:6 NIV) David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:Hi! This isn't really in keeping with the flow of the thread, but I just wanted to respond to this particular portion of your post. I think if you take a closer look at Romans 4, you'll see that Paul is not indicating that there is a righteousness achieved through works; in fact, he is indicating the opposite.

Verse 2 says "IF" Abraham was justified by works, then he could boast, but not before God. In other words, supposing Abraham had works that "qualified" him as "righteous," they wouldn't do him any good in God's eyes.

Verse 3 makes it clear that it was not Abraham's works that made him righteous. It was the fact that he believed God. His faith is what made him righteous.

Verse 6 is not a contrast to the verses about Abraham. Paul says that David said the "same thing."

Verse 9 says again that it was Abraham's faith that made him righteous.

Verse 10 is yet another argument for pointing out that Abraham's obedience was not what made him righteous.


Somewhere in my upbringing I got the idea that in the OT people were saved by following the law. If you kept the law perfectly (hypothetically), you were free from sin. When you broke the law (as everyone does), obedience to the law in the form of sacrifices "paid" for the sins. Then when Jesus came, the means of salvation shifted from law to grace.

However, I now realize that my previous understanding was wrong. Men have been saved by faith, and faith alone, since the beginning. If Christ had not died, sacrifices and obedience to the law would have been meaningless. Only through Christ's perfect sacrifice are we saved, and the application of His righteousness comes through faith: whether living in the OT or NT.


As to the question of this thread, I believe that works are required evidence. We will be judged by the evidence of our faith. We will not be judged by the merit of our works, because we can take no merit in our works. The fact that we do good works is 100% through the grace of God.

Gulah Papyrus
Nov 18th 2008, 03:03 AM
Your argument is fallacious. How many hairs does it take to make a beard? 1, 100 ,1000, 10,000? What is cold? is 60 degrees cold, but 61 degrees not cold? The answer is there is not set number, it is a matter of the heart, you are either doing them or you are not.Please define 'them'...

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 03:10 AM
Please define 'them'...

The good works Jesus defines in Matthew 25.

RogerW
Nov 18th 2008, 03:31 AM
This verse (2Co 5:10) tells us that all man appear before the judgment seat of Christ in body. Notice that "done" "his" and "it" are all italics. Since all appear at the judgment in body, I ask again, what body will believers be in? We receive our glorified bodies at the coming of Christ in glory (1Co 15:50-54). Why would believers be judged for things done in their physical bodies of death since they have already received incorruptible, immortal bodies? All of our sins done in our bodies of death were forgiven in Christ. Those appearing at the judgment clothed in incorruption, and immortality have done good, and will receive their eternal reward; i.e. eternal life. Those appearing at the judgment still wearing bodies of death will have done bad, and be judged and condemned to the lake of fire.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The judgment in Rev 20 shows us that it is the dead who are judged, not those who are written in the Book of Life. The dead (unbelievers) will be all those who are still wearing bodies of death. They have been resurrected bodily to be judged for things they have done in the body of flesh/death. Those who are clothed in immortality and incorruption are not judged because their names are written in the book of life. After the judgment all the dead are cast into the lake of fire.

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

We find the same thing in Romans 2. Here we read that every man, both believers, clothed in immortality and incorruption because through continued patience they did well, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality, eternal life...and unbelievers, still wearing their bodies of death, whose lives were contentious, and they did not obey the truth, but obeyed unrighteousness, so they will receive indignation and wrath for the evil they have done.

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Ro 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Ro 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Ro 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Ro 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Ro 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Matthew 25:31-46...the goats; unbelievers still wearing their bodies of death will be on Christ's left hand at the judgment. The sheep; believers clothed in incorruption and immortality will be on His right hand. Those on His right will inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. And those on the left into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers.

Some believe this verse in Mt 16 proves that believers receive reward(s) according to their good works. Notice first that the verse does not speak of plural rewards, but a single reward according to "his" works. What are the works Christ is speaking of? Are believers being rewarded for their works or Christ's works? I believe "his" is the reflexive pronoun "self". We receive reward when Christ comes in glory for His suffering, dying and being raised again the third day.

Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mt 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Some will also point to 1Co 3:11-15 to show that believers receive reward(s) for things done in the flesh. They appeal to building upon the foundation of Christ with gold, silver and precious stones that will endure the trial by fire, and therefore show they have built upon Christ with works worthy of reward(s). Again, first notice the reward is singular not plural. The passage clearly tells us that nothing can be built upon the foundation of Christ, whether it be gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or stubble. After the trial by fire the only foundation that will abide is the foundation of Christ, the same foundation layed by Paul and the Apostles. Even our gold perishes for we can build on nothing other than the foundation of Christ, and this is our only work that will abide forever. The trial by fire will burn away anything believers think they can use to build upon the true foundation. This is a trial by fire to try and strengthen our faith.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Many Blessings,
RW

chad
Nov 18th 2008, 05:17 AM
Hi Doppelgangero,


After reading Romans 4:2 again, I would have to agree that Paul was not saying Abraham was justified or made righteous by works but by faith.

(Rom 4:2 NIV) If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.

This would line up with Genesis 15:6

(Gen 15:6 NIV) Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

I guess in the old testament, obeying the law was a way to gain righteousness.

(Deu 6:25 NIV) And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness."

But we know that we can not become righteous by obeying the law – .

(Rom 3:20 NIV) Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

(Rom 3:21 NIV) But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

(Rom 3:22 NIV) This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

(Rom 3:23 NIV) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,



Thanks for pointing this out to me. :)


Chad.



Hi! This isn't really in keeping with the flow of the thread, but I just wanted to respond to this particular portion of your post. I think if you take a closer look at Romans 4, you'll see that Paul is not indicating that there is a righteousness achieved through works; in fact, he is indicating the opposite.

Verse 2 says "IF" Abraham was justified by works, then he could boast, but not before God. In other words, supposing Abraham had works that "qualified" him as "righteous," they wouldn't do him any good in God's eyes.

Verse 3 makes it clear that it was not Abraham's works that made him righteous. It was the fact that he believed God. His faith is what made him righteous.

Verse 6 is not a contrast to the verses about Abraham. Paul says that David said the "same thing."

Verse 9 says again that it was Abraham's faith that made him righteous.

Verse 10 is yet another argument for pointing out that Abraham's obedience was not what made him righteous.


Somewhere in my upbringing I got the idea that in the OT people were saved by following the law. If you kept the law perfectly (hypothetically), you were free from sin. When you broke the law (as everyone does), obedience to the law in the form of sacrifices "paid" for the sins. Then when Jesus came, the means of salvation shifted from law to grace.

However, I now realize that my previous understanding was wrong. Men have been saved by faith, and faith alone, since the beginning. If Christ had not died, sacrifices and obedience to the law would have been meaningless. Only through Christ's perfect sacrifice are we saved, and the application of His righteousness comes through faith: whether living in the OT or NT.


As to the question of this thread, I believe that works are required evidence. We will be judged by the evidence of our faith. We will not be judged by the merit of our works, because we can take no merit in our works. The fact that we do good works is 100% through the grace of God.

mikebr
Nov 18th 2008, 12:06 PM
The good works Jesus defines in Matthew 25.


I believe that these are good works but who is being judged here?

The Nations. Literally ethnic groups if I'm not mistaken.

But how many prisoners do I have to visit?
How many hungary people do I have to feed?

What if I am one of those people? Who am I responsible for taking care of? What if I am physically incapable of fulfilling my part?

I'm sure you have done everything mentioned in Matt 25. But have you done it enough?

Veretax
Nov 18th 2008, 01:45 PM
A) Be more elaborate. Use the Scriptures provided, or more, if you know of any that are related to the topic. If you're going to respond with an analogy, actually put the effort into comparing that analogy to Scripture and explain why you think that analogy is an accurate representation of Scripture. Otherwise, your contribution doesn't really help bring any clarification to the discussion.




First I'd like to address what marked said. We always must be VERY VERY careful when it comes to explaining our beliefs. We should never come from experience to truth. We should always find truth, and then compare it to experience. Experiences can often give a false reading and the same is true for analogies. So I apologize here if I've used any analogies and not supported them from scripture. We should be comparing scripture by scripture not arguing from our own intellects. I thank you for that reminder

Now on to answer a specific question.



So we're talking about levels of salvation?

To live is Christ, to die is gain...but the amount of gain depends on how many good work smiley faces you get? So then, can you be a better sinner than this guy, but not as good as that guy? Doesn't that put us right back where we started? Isn't this the bondage that Christ's death on the cross released us from? Struggling to live up to some expectation that is beyond our ability and nature?

Can you give me an example of a good work? Are there great works? How about pretty good works? Or maybe 'I've seen better' works?

Good works compared to what? Compared to who?

I don't understand!:B:B:B

:help:

That is not what i said, but let me present something for you to consider. can there be a partial salvation? Or levels as you just said? I say no, but let's see what God says. Now if we look at the bible Christ is very clear about fence straddlers

Rev 3:14- 22

14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, F27 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Revelation+3&section=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=&NavBook=re&NavGo=4&NavCurrentChapter=4#F27) I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked-- 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' "

Christ here is telling them to make up their minds. (now from a prophetical standpoint, some argue over this passage whether they were even saved, but that really isn't the point I'm trying to make here). The church in Laodicea is being accused of fence straddling. So I compare it to this:

If you are in a ship wreck. You are stranded and have to wait for a rescue boat to arrive. Once a rescue boat arrives, are you saved if you are still in the water? Are you saved as they bring you into a life boat? Are you saved while being raised from a life boat? Are you saved as you straddle the hull of the boat? Or are you saved once you are in the boat. Now I know this is an analogy, and it may seem hypocritical to use one after I just said, but there is a reason i raise this. What is being saved? in this sense? What did Christ say here to the Church of Laodicea? Sounds to me like he's saying get in the boat, or get out.

Therefore, no I do not believe there are levels of Salvation, however, I do believe that we will not all be equal in heaven though we will all be saved.


So what does this mean? We know from Romans...

Romans 3 makes it pretty clear that there is none rightoues, none who does Good. In our flesh we can do nothing that is Good.

10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." 13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips"; 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


Paul is quoting essentially from the OT here, and then he goes to explain the purpose of the Law. In the Law all the world stands as Guilty before God. Thus Paul proclaims that there is no justification for the flesh by the deeds of the law in God's Sight, for the Law is in essence Knowledge of Sin. How then are we justified? We are justified freely by his Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (24), whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demosntrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance, god has passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His Righteousness that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

What is the underlying theame? Justification is by God's grace through Faith in Jesus. "by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight" (20)


This brings up another interesting point, if this is the case, that no flesh can be justified by deeds of the law in God's eyes, then why is it necessary that the sheep and goats are judged at the end? I'll let you guys ponder that for a moment.

Veretax
Nov 18th 2008, 01:47 PM
RogerW,

thanks for your post, it really got me thinking and drove me to study this word that in some versions is translated as Reward, Hire or Wages.... Here are my findings.


That verse in 1 Cor 3:8 is interesting. I checked the greek Interlinear, and it looks something like this:

It seems to read as "THE one-planting YET AND THE one-Irrigating for-one-thing are each yet the own wages (hire) shall be getting according to THE OWN toil)



Now to things i noticed right off hand, the word that is being translated reward appears to be misqovß or misthos transliterated which appears to have the possible meaning of hire or wages.

Thanks to Crosswalk I looked up the Strongs Number to find the dfinitions of the word:

Strong's Number: 3408 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
misqovß apparently a primary word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Misthos 4:695,599
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mis-thos' Noun Masculine
Definition

1. dues paid for work
1. wages, hire
2. reward: used of the fruit naturally resulting from toils and endeavours
1. in both senses, rewards and punishments
2. of the rewards which God bestows, or will bestow, upon good deeds and endeavours
3. of punishments


King James Word Usage - Total: 29
reward 24, hire 3, wages 2


It is interesting that it is translated 24 times as reward 3 times as hired and 3 times as wages.


It is the same word used in that Corinthian passage:

1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

And its the same word that Paul used in his first letter to Timothy

1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Oddly, its the same word Luke uses to describe what happened to Judas after he 'sold Christ' to the teachers.

Ac 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

It is also used 9 times in Matthew:

Mt 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mt 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mt 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Mt 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mt 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mt 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mt 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Mt 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
Mt 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

The last one the 20:8 verse is from the Parable of the Stewards who were sent into the field at different times, yet all receved the same wage. A very interesting analogy in the context of this discussion.

Luke used the word 3 times in his Gospel:

Lu 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Lu 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Lu 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

Luke 6:35 is also interesting because Christ tells them to love their enemies do good, and lend expecting to gain nothing, and the reward shall be great, and be children of the Highest.

Later in that passage Christ says the following:

38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Interesting, cause he then goes on to say:

40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.


In John after Christ's encounter with the woman at the well he says the following:

Joh 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.


I'm going to draw out the context on this verse cause there is a clear principle here:


34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. 35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. 36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. 37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. 38 I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours. 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

The analogy here to reaping, to reaching out to the lost, indicates that he that reaps the white field shall receive his Hire, his wages, and gathers fruit unto life eternal. This was from the old KJV though compare to the New King James version

34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work. 35 Do you not say, 'There are still four months and then comes the harvest'? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest! 36 And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. 37 For in this the saying is true: 'One sows and another reaps.' 38 I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labors."

as an aside, this verse has always been a comfort to me when I feel my efforts to witness have fullen on Dull hearts. I still take hope from this taht one day many of the seeds I planted, may be reaped by someone else to Christ's Glory. I take great comfort that my efforts in that area may not be in vain. However, what is Jesus meaning that gathering fruit for eternal life? This is an interesting bit of words. We know about the Fruits of the spirit from Galations, but I'm not sure this is the same Fruit that Paul is talking about. Does anyone have any ideas on that?


Back to the word study.


James uses the same word once as a warning:

5:4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.

I think context is important here:


James 5

1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. 4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. 5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you. 7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Interesting that James uses this word as part of warning against the rich, and it sounds as if its talking of those who hire, (employers), and warning them that their unjust wages will be a witness against them. He also admonishes Believers to remain patient. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

(Interesting how this passage could apply easily to the current financial crisis)

2 Peter also uses this word twice in the same passage:

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. 15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man's voice restrained the madness of the prophet.

The old KJV translates it as reward. So here its interesting that these two translations use a slightly different word here. The Greek Interlinear also uses the word hire/wages here and not reward. Which is interesting.

Lastly John in his 2nd Epistle uses the word:

KJV: 2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
NKJV: 2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.

Its interesting that the adjective 'full' is included to precede this word reward. (which in the interlinear is Hire/Wages). This seems to hint that it is possible not to get a full wage/hire/reward If this is so, I question whether this reward is used exclusively about salvation, as how can a person be only 'partially' saved? That makes no sense to me.


Finally at the close of revelations John uses this word:

KJV Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
NKJV Re 22:12 And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Thus I believe that for those of us who labor to do what Christ has set before us, each of us shall receive a wage, a hire, a reward for those efforts. I still believe though, that this is above Salvation itself.


For we know from Romans that the wages of sin is death:


Rom 6:23 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 03:52 PM
Your argument is fallacious. How many hairs does it take to make a beard? 1, 100 ,1000, 10,000? What is cold? is 60 degrees cold, but 61 degrees not cold? The answer is there is not set number, it is a matter of the heart, you are either doing them or you are not.Who is doing them? Are we able to do them in our own power? Jesus said, "Apart from me, you can do nothing" (John 15:5). Yes, we are required to have faith. The Spirit will work in conjunction with our faith to do the good works. We have to be willing to be used by God to do the work. That's the faith part. But we can't do the works ourselves in our own power.

looking4jesus
Nov 18th 2008, 04:05 PM
1) This thread had nothing to do with OSAS/NOSAS. It had to do with grace/works. They're not the same topic.

2) You were the one to bring up the OSAS/NOSAS, and you directly stated that NOSAS was "of Satan". You were the one "attacking" a belief, so I think it's a bit hypocritical to singularly target Butch, especially since Butch hadn't even posted in this thread.

3) You say "don't debate this issue", yet that's exactly what you were doing...

This is the issue. I was not targeting Butch if it felt like that I am sorry. It is just that Butch jumps in anytime eternal security issue is raised and of course I will do the same as it is Satan accusing the flock to doubt their salvation IMO. And yes anytime you try to mix grace with works concering being saved it is a OSAS issue. And no I do not like to debate like this but the issue is so important esp for new belivers that I feel it is needed to tell the truth. This idea that you can loose your salvation has caused many new born again christians to fall now they will still be saved but their life fruits and living for God will be very damaged. Who wants that ..Satan does , certainly not a brother or sister in Jesus Christ.
That i sall I have to say on this issue lest I also be a aprt of having my brother fall from the flock but still he will be saved.
God Bless
Randy

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 04:26 PM
Before trying to figure out a "scale" of good works...

Try dealing with the Scriptures first. Read the verses I posted in the OP. I'll reiterate their numbers here, in case you want to grab your own Bible: Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:31-46, Romans 2:5-10, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:11-15.

Let's all try to answer some questions first, in relation to the verses I posted in the OP.

First
Do these verses teach or not teach that people will be judged according to works/deeds/actions to any extent?They clearly do. Of course, we have to determine what that means. They are a few verses that indicate there may be different levels of reward for believers on judgment day as well as different levels of punishment for unbelievers, but then there are others that seem to indicate the reward is the same for all believers and the punishment is the same for all unbelievers. It's hard to say for certain. What do you think?

What we know for certain is that believers will all be changed and have immortal bodies and we will all inherit the kingdom of the Father (1 Cor 15:50-54, Matt 13:43, Matt 25:34, Rev 21) while unbelievers will all be cast into the lake of fire (Matt 13:42, Matt 13:50, Matt 25:41, Rev 20:15). That is what is certain.


Second
If these verses do teach that people will be judged according to works/deeds/actions, does that necessarily mean the verses teach that people are saved according to those works/deeds/actions?

Do not simply reply with "salvation by works is heresy!" Actually read the verses and respond to these two questions.It can't possibly mean that in light of passages like these:

Ephesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

We clearly are not saved by works so how could being judged according to our works mean that one is saved or damned based on their works?

Scripture doesn't contradict itself. What I believe is the reason believers are judged according to their works on judgment day is because our works reflect our faith. Everyone is known by their fruit. Faith without works is dead. If one truly has faith, then they will bear fruit and do good works because the Holy Spirit doesn't indwell us and then just sit there waiting for us to do the work. The Spirit leads people to do the good works that God has prepared for us.

Apart from Christ, we can do nothing (John 15:5). But with Christ, we can do all things (Phil 4:13). It doesn't seem possible to be born of the Spirit and then proceed to not do any good works.

The only exception would be a case like the thief on the cross who wasn't saved until shortly before he died. He didn't do any good works, but he was certainly saved. That proves that works aren't necessary for salvation. But, again, if we're truly saved we WILL do good works because if we're truly saved it means Christ is our Lord and we want to serve Christ and He gives us the power to do so through the Spirit.

So, how do you see it? What do you think it means when it speaks about being judged according to our works?

RogerW
Nov 18th 2008, 04:41 PM
Its interesting that the adjective 'full' is included to precede this word reward. (which in the interlinear is Hire/Wages). This seems to hint that it is possible not to get a full wage/hire/reward If this is so, I question whether this reward is used exclusively about salvation, as how can a person be only 'partially' saved? That makes no sense to me.

Finally at the close of revelations John uses this word:

KJV Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
NKJV Re 22:12 And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Thus I believe that for those of us who labor to do what Christ has set before us, each of us shall receive a wage, a hire, a reward for those efforts. I still believe though, that this is above Salvation itself.

For we know from Romans that the wages of sin is death:

Rom 6:23 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Greetings Veretax,

Had you considered the meaning of "full" and also how it has been used elsewhere in Scripture?

Full - pleres from 4130; replete, or covered over; by analogy, complete:--full.

4130 - pletho to "fill" (literally or figuratively (imbue, influence, supply)); specially, to fulfil (time):--accomplish, full (...come), furnish.

The word pleres has been translated "full" 17 times in the KJV. In every passage you will find that "full" means "complete".

Mt 14:20....fragments that remained twelve baskets full [complete]
Mt 15:37....that was left seven baskets full [complete].
Mr 4:28 .....after that the full [complete] corn in the ear.
Mr 6:43 .....twelve baskets full [complete] of the fragments,
Mr 8:19 .....how many baskets full [complete] of fragments took ye up?
Lu 4:1 .....And Jesus being [complete] full of the Holy Ghost
Lu 5:12 .....behold a man full [complete] of leprosy:
Joh 1:14 ....full [complete] of grace and truth.
Ac 6:3 ......full [complete] of the Holy Ghost and wisdom
Ac 6:5 ......a man full [complete] of faith and of the Holy Ghost,
Ac 6:8 ......And Stephen, full [complete] of faith and power,
Ac 7:55 .....being full [complete] of the Holy Ghost
Ac 9:36 .....this woman was full [complete] of good works
Ac 11:24 ...and full [complete] of the Holy Ghost and of faith
Ac 13:10 ...O full [complete] of all subtilty and all mischief
Ac 19:28 ...they were full [complete] of wrath,

2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

At the Judgment we will either receive a complete reward, or no reward but judgment. The reward is a single reward, and is not dependent upon our works, but on the finished work of Christ alone. If our works earn us reward(s) in heaven, then our salvation is no longer of grace, but of debt. I know you said this is not about salvation itself, but greater reward for those who labor because we have been saved. Why should we expect rewards for things we do through the power of the Holy Spirit?

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Re 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Re 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Christ comes with His reward of eternal life to the righteous and holy, and He comes in judgment and condemnation for the unjust and filthy.

Ro 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 04:54 PM
I believe that these are good works but who is being judged here?

The Nations. Literally ethnic groups if I'm not mistaken.

But how many prisoners do I have to visit?
How many hungary people do I have to feed?

What if I am one of those people? Who am I responsible for taking care of? What if I am physically incapable of fulfilling my part?

I'm sure you have done everything mentioned in Matt 25. But have you done it enough?

The Greek word ethnos, means people. Are you suggesting that countries are going to be judged and cast into the everlasting punishment? Are countries declared righteous by God?

Again, the how many argument is fallacious, as I have said, how many hairs does it take to make a beard? what is hot or cold? Is 69 degrees cold and 70 degrees hot? The issue is the matter of the heart. Are you going to obey or not?

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 05:07 PM
They clearly do. Of course, we have to determine what that means. They are a few verses that indicate there may be different levels of reward for believers on judgment day as well as different levels of punishment for unbelievers, but then there are others that seem to indicate the reward is the same for all believers and the punishment is the same for all unbelievers. It's hard to say for certain. What do you think?

What we know for certain is that believers will all be changed and have immortal bodies and we will all inherit the kingdom of the Father (1 Cor 15:50-54, Matt 13:43, Matt 25:34, Rev 21) while unbelievers will all be cast into the lake of fire (Matt 13:42, Matt 13:50, Matt 25:41, Rev 20:15). That is what is certain.

It can't possibly mean that in light of passages like these:

Ephesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

We clearly are not saved by works so how could being judged according to our works mean that one is saved or damned based on their works?

Scripture doesn't contradict itself. What I believe is the reason believers are judged according to their works on judgment day is because our works reflect our faith. Everyone is known by their fruit. Faith without works is dead. If one truly has faith, then they will bear fruit and do good works because the Holy Spirit doesn't indwell us and then just sit there waiting for us to do the work. The Spirit leads people to do the good works that God has prepared for us.

Apart from Christ, we can do nothing (John 15:5). But with Christ, we can do all things (Phil 4:13). It doesn't seem possible to be born of the Spirit and then proceed to not do any good works.

The only exception would be a case like the thief on the cross who wasn't saved until shortly before he died. He didn't do any good works, but he was certainly saved. That proves that works aren't necessary for salvation. But, again, if we're truly saved we WILL do good works because if we're truly saved it means Christ is our Lord and we want to serve Christ and He gives us the power to do so through the Spirit.

So, how do you see it? What do you think it means when it speaks about being judged according to our works?


John---It can't possibly mean that in light of passages like these:

Ephesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

We clearly are not saved by works so how could being judged according to our works mean that one is saved or damned based on their works?


John, why do you assume your understanding of these verses is correct??

Look at both sets of verses to determine which is being interpreted incorrectly.

The Ephesians 2:8 verse is speaking of works of the law. Read on in the chapter, it says Christ broke down the middle wall of partition, the law.

We are not saved initially by works, when we come to Christ we bring no works and are saved (in a saved state). However ultimately we will be saved at the judgment. So, there is a period of time between the time we are saved and the judgment. It is during this time that we are to do the good works. Notice in Matthew 25, it is the one's who did the works who are considered righteous. They are the ones who obeyed, remember Jesus said, he that keeps my commands, it is he who loves me.

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 05:11 PM
This is the issue. I was not targeting Butch if it felt like that I am sorry. It is just that Butch jumps in anytime eternal security issue is raised and of course I will do the same as it is Satan accusing the flock to doubt their salvation IMO. And yes anytime you try to mix grace with works concering being saved it is a OSAS issue. And no I do not like to debate like this but the issue is so important esp for new belivers that I feel it is needed to tell the truth. This idea that you can loose your salvation has caused many new born again christians to fall now they will still be saved but their life fruits and living for God will be very damaged. Who wants that ..Satan does , certainly not a brother or sister in Jesus Christ.
That i sall I have to say on this issue lest I also be a aprt of having my brother fall from the flock but still he will be saved.
God Bless
Randy

Randy,

Why don't you start a new thread and layout from Scripture the doctrine of OSAS. You can build your case and see if it stands. It is a very important issue as you have said, so why not go ahead and do that?

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 05:14 PM
Who is doing them? Are we able to do them in our own power? Jesus said, "Apart from me, you can do nothing" (John 15:5). Yes, we are required to have faith. The Spirit will work in conjunction with our faith to do the good works. We have to be willing to be used by God to do the work. That's the faith part. But we can't do the works ourselves in our own power.



Are we able to do them in our own power? Jesus said, "Apart from me, you can do nothing" (John 15:5).


What does this mean to you?

The lost can do a lot of things and they don't have the Lord.

John, I never said we could do the good works without the Spirit, all I said was we "must" do the good works.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 05:38 PM
John, why do you assume your understanding of these verses is correct??:lol: Don't we all assume our opinions are correct? I thought I made it clear that there were passages that could possibly indicate different levels of reward for believers and there were others that indicated we all get the same reward and I didn't know for certain how it will all shake out. What I can see for certain is that we (believers) all will have immortal bodies and we will all inherit eternal life in the kingdom of the Father.


Look at both sets of verses to determine which is being interpreted incorrectly.

The Ephesians 2:8 verse is speaking of works of the law. Read on in the chapter, it says Christ broke down the middle wall of partition, the law.Yeah, I've seen that argument being made by drew. I still disagree. I believe the works by which we are not saved are the same type of works that are mentioned in verse 10 and those are good works of righteousness. But it doesn't matter too much which type of works he meant in that verse because we know from Titus 3:5 that we are not saved by our own works of righteousness.

Titus 3
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Do you agree with this passage or not? I'm pretty sure you do. So, if we're not saved initially by our own good works of righteousness why in the world would the maintaining of our salvation be dependent on our own good works of righteousness? That makes no sense.


We are not saved initially by works, when we come to Christ we bring no works and are saved (in a saved state). However ultimately we will be saved at the judgment. So, there is a period of time between the time we are saved and the judgment. It is during this time that we are to do the good works. Notice in Matthew 25, it is the one's who did the works who are considered righteous. They are the ones who obeyed, remember Jesus said, he that keeps my commands, it is he who loves me.So, this brings us back to the question I asked earlier. How many good works do we need to do? Or, how much does one need to obey in order to be saved? All the time? Half the time? This is why it's a fallacy to think that we are saved by our own works of righteousness. No amount of our own good works would be good enough to save us. We are saved by grace through our faith in Christ.

Yes, our works reflect our faith. If we truly have faith then we will want to serve Christ. But we can't actually do the good works without the power of the Spirit. Jesus said, "Apart from Me, you can do nothing". Paul said, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". Do you understand what that means? Our good works are done through the power of the Spirit. Our responsibility is to have the faith in our hearts that God will do those things through us and we have to submit our wills to Him and let Him do His work through us.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 05:44 PM
What does this mean to you?

The lost can do a lot of things and they don't have the Lord.They can't do the good works that God prepared for His people to do from the foundation of the world (Eph 2:10). Why not? Because they didn't put their faith in Christ and are not saved and don't have the Spirit dwelling in them.


John, I never said we could do the good works without the Spirit, all I said was we "must" do the good works.What do you mean by that then? Did the thief on the cross do any good works? Ultimately we are required to have faith in Christ. If our own works of righteousness were required then how much exactly would be required? Regardless, we would fall short. We'd have to be perfect in order to be saved by works. But none of us are.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Eric

Veretax
Nov 18th 2008, 06:05 PM
Greetings Veretax,

Had you considered the meaning of "full" and also how it has been used elsewhere in Scripture?


No I'd not gone and looked the number up to see where all it was found, but thank you for doing that for me it is most interesting.



Full - pleres from 4130; replete, or covered over; by analogy, complete:--full.

4130 - pletho to "fill" (literally or figuratively (imbue, influence, supply)); specially, to fulfil (time):--accomplish, full (...come), furnish.

The word pleres has been translated "full" 17 times in the KJV. In every passage you will find that "full" means "complete".

Mt 14:20....fragments that remained twelve baskets full [complete]
Mt 15:37....that was left seven baskets full [complete].
Mr 4:28 .....after that the full [complete] corn in the ear.
Mr 6:43 .....twelve baskets full [complete] of the fragments,
Mr 8:19 .....how many baskets full [complete] of fragments took ye up?
Lu 4:1 .....And Jesus being [complete] full of the Holy Ghost
Lu 5:12 .....behold a man full [complete] of leprosy:
Joh 1:14 ....full [complete] of grace and truth.
Ac 6:3 ......full [complete] of the Holy Ghost and wisdom
Ac 6:5 ......a man full [complete] of faith and of the Holy Ghost,
Ac 6:8 ......And Stephen, full [complete] of faith and power,
Ac 7:55 .....being full [complete] of the Holy Ghost
Ac 9:36 .....this woman was full [complete] of good works
Ac 11:24 ...and full [complete] of the Holy Ghost and of faith
Ac 13:10 ...O full [complete] of all subtilty and all mischief
Ac 19:28 ...they were full [complete] of wrath,




Bear with me as I plug in what I just read about this word: It may repeat:

Strong's Number: 4134 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=4134&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin plhvrhßfrom (4130 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4130&version=kjv)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4134&version=kjv#Legend) Entry Pleres6:283,867 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech play'-race http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=4134g) Adjective Definition

full, i.e. filled up (as opposed to empty)

of hollow vessels
of a surface, covered in every part
of the soul, thoroughly permeated with


full, i.e. complete

lacking nothing, perfect



King James Word Usage - Total: 17 full 17

(Why does my strongs number not match yours? I'm puzzled at that, yet the same 17 verses hrms.)

This is very interesting. (And wow I need to reread all 17 of those cause a few of those looking at this as a word meaning complete change my understanding slightly on a few passages ex: Christ's Baptism)



2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

At the Judgment we will either receive a complete reward, or no reward but judgment. The reward is a single reward, and is not dependent upon our works, but on the finished work of Christ alone. If our works earn us reward(s) in heaven, then our salvation is no longer of grace, but of debt. I know you said this is not about salvation itself, but greater reward for those who labor because we have been saved. Why should we expect rewards for things we do through the power of the Holy Spirit?


Now I don't understand your grace versus Debt analogy here. Mybe that's what's throwing me, but I like to look at the entire context there now.
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

Clearly, John is warning about false teachers. Why would he do this? …. Paul, and Peter also warned about false teachers? Why? Because those who teach false doctrine can draw people away from the truth I suppose. But it is interesting here, that he is particularly warning them to look to themselves, so they don’t lose things they worked for, but receive a full [complete] reward. And then he says if anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive them for he who greets him shares in his Evil Deeds. Wow! John is saying that to even be seen as do so much as greeting these false teachers is to be associated with them.







Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Re 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Re 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Christ comes with His reward of eternal life to the righteous and holy, and He comes in judgment and condemnation for the unjust and filthy.

Ro 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Many Blessings,
RW

Yeah those verses along with some others I've read in this discussion, remind me that it is the Spirit of God who works through us. The works that we do are done in and in essence through Christ, for we obviously would not be able to without his aid. So I can see a bit here about your argument of one reward, perhaps. Hrms, but as I said elsewhere, some other versions translate the word as Hire or Wages which is a slightly different idea than a singular reward.

And someone asked about Crowns, from my understanding what Crowns we do get we cast at Jesus Feet anyways.


Hrms, still Its good to search out these scriptures and compare them and strengthen our Faith by reading them.

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 06:10 PM
John146:lol: Don't we all assume our opinions are correct? I thought I made it clear that there were passages that could possibly indicate different levels of reward for believers and there were others that indicated we all get the same reward and I didn't know for certain how it will all shake out. What I can see for certain is that we (believers) all will have immortal bodies and we will all inherit eternal life in the kingdom of the Father.


John, was wasn't saying you are wrong, just asking why you held so tightly to those verses, giving the impression that there was no possibility that they were being interpreted incorrectly. I used to assume what I believed was right, I don't hold tightly anymore after I realized how much error I had been taught. If I have one verse of Scripture that goes counter to what I believe, what I believe immediately comes into question.


John---Yeah, I've seen that argument being made by drew. I still disagree. I believe the works by which we are not saved are the same type of works that are mentioned in verse 10 and those are good works of righteousness. But it doesn't matter too much which type of works he meant in that verse because we know from Titus 3:5 that we are not saved by our own works of righteousness.


OK, what is the basis for thinking that the works in Ephesians 2:8 and 2:10 are the same works?


John---Titus 3
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Do you agree with this passage or not? I'm pretty sure you do. So, if we're not saved initially by our own good works of righteousness why in the world would the maintaining of our salvation be dependent on our own good works of righteousness? That makes no sense.

That is what the Scriptures say, Clearly in Matthew 25 only those with good works get eternal life,and also in Romans 2, Paul says, those who in continual well doing are seeking eternal life. Now Paul is the biggest proponent of saved by faith, and yet he himself says that God will judge everyone according to their works, and he makes it clear that this judgment either leads to eternal life or rejection from it. However by doing these works we are not earning salvation. We could do all the works in the world, if God decided not to save us we won't be saved, so it is not the works that save it is God. But Jesus said at the judgment, the people will be judged, and depending on whether or not they did good works will determine where they go, those who did, eternal life. Those who did not, everlasting punishment.


John---So, this brings us back to the question I asked earlier. How many good works do we need to do? Or, how much does one need to obey in order to be saved? All the time? Half the time? This is why it's a fallacy to think that we are saved by our own works of righteousness. No amount of our own good works would be good enough to save us. We are saved by grace through our faith in Christ.

It is not about how many, it is about, are we doing them? The works don't save you so thee is no number. It is Jesus, if you love me keep my commands. He who keeps my commands, it is he would loves me.

John 14:24 ( KJV ) 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

We can say we love Jesus "all day long", but He said, if we do not keep His commands we do not love Him. So, it really doesn't matterwaht we say, it is what we do.


John---Yes, our works reflect our faith. If we truly have faith then we will want to serve Christ. But we can't actually do the good works without the power of the Spirit. Jesus said, "Apart from Me, you can do nothing". Paul said, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". Do you understand what that means? Our good works are done through the power of the Spirit. Our responsibility is to have the faith in our hearts that God will do those things through us and we have to submit our wills to Him and let Him do His work through us.

I have to differ with you here, I agree that we need the Spirit to do the work, however, I don't agree that God does the works for us. Now, notice I said "FOR US" not through us. God does the works through us, but "we must do the works". If we just sit home and do nothing, surely we don't think that God is doing work through us

Veretax
Nov 18th 2008, 06:24 PM
Now here is an interesting verse:

James 4 17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.


That would seem to cover anything that is not specifically covered in the Law. What was the first and greatest commandment? To love the Lord Thy God with all our heart, soul and mind, and the second is like it, love Thy neighbor as our self. This is really what the Law boiled down too, and yet, we know from Galations that the Law did not justify men before God? Wait… let me repeat that. The Law did not Justify Men Before God

Galations 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
Galations 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
Galations 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
Galations 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
Galations 3:13-14
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"*), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

If the Law boils down to Loving God with all our being, and loving our neighbor as we love ourselves. As Jesus so eloquently summarized, and the Law (Loving God and Thy Neighbor) did not Justify us before God, then no good thing which we do Justifies us before God. It is only by Faith are we justified before God. “The just shall live by faith.” It doesn’t say live by faith + do good works, or while doing good works. Works don’t enter the equation. The Just Live by faith. The fact that Good works do happen in the Lives of Christians is more a testimony of Christ, and His Spirit who works through us. It is all God’s doing. But works do not save, yet they are necessary.

It may sound like a contradiction but it isn’t consider this passage From John. Jesus was in Jerusalem for the feast of dedication, and the jews wanted him to just plainly say whether he was or wasn’t the Christ. Look what happened:

John 10:22-38
22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one." 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."


Now it is interesting that Christ tells the Jews that he already told them and they did not believe. Even the works He did were not his but his father working through Him. That his works bear witness of Him. Why did they not believe? They were not his sheep. (Interesting)….His sheep hear His Voice and He Knows them, and they follow HIM. And he gives his Sheep Eternal life, and its clear from here that no one can snatch them out of Christ, or the Father’s hand.

Then they took up stones to stone him. And jesus said:

32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '?...

He ended with two very profound statements:

37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."


Christ was telling them to believe his Works. Why? Because our works bear witness of who we are and to whom we belong, whether it be to God/Christ, or to Sin/Death/Unrighteousness. Therefore why are Good works necessary? So that others can see whether we are sheep or goats. It’s that simple. Yet so simple, that Christ had to reiterate it again near the end of John.

John 14:12-14
12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

Notice, he says if you ask anything in His name, HE will do it. It is not us that do it, it’s Him that will do it. It also says that he who believes in Him would do the same works he did. Therefore, It is my belief that works come from the Spirit Christ places within us, and they are necessary to prove salvation to the world around us, and to call more to believe in him who is Within us.
And Butch, because of this I believe that the you are right those who have the Good works get eternal life, but not because of the works themselves, but because of who is within (The Spirit) that does the Good works, and you only get The Spirit by Faith in Christ. Therefore, yes those who have works get Eternal Life. Not that Works save, but those who are saved will have Works.

Butch5
Nov 18th 2008, 06:31 PM
They can't do the good works that God prepared for His people to do from the foundation of the world (Eph 2:10). Why not? Because they didn't put their faith in Christ and are not saved and don't have the Spirit dwelling in them.

What do you mean by that then? Did the thief on the cross do any good works? Ultimately we are required to have faith in Christ. If our own works of righteousness were required then how much exactly would be required? Regardless, we would fall short. We'd have to be perfect in order to be saved by works. But none of us are.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Eric

Hi Eric,

I'm not getting my point across. The works don't save, Jesus saves. He will judge everyone at the judgment. He said in Matthew 25, that the criteria for this judgment will be what kind of works you have done, He did not say how many good works, He only said if you do good works. Look at the parable of the talents, one was given 5, one was given 2, and one was given 1. The man with 5 returned an additional 5 , the master praised him, the man with 2 returned an additional 2, the master praised him, the man with one buried it and returned only the one talent, and the master said throw the worthless servant out in darkness where there will be gnashing of teeth.

Notice what He says, both the man who had 5 and the man who had 2 talents were equally praised, yet the man who did nothing was called a worthless servant and cast into hell.

The master did not judge them on how much of a return they had, He judged them on whether or not the had a return. The man who did nothing had no return and was cast out. So, it isn't how many works we do, it is a matter of whether or not we do the works. When the master returns will we hand him 5 talents plus 5 more or will we say here is the one talent that you left with me?

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 06:35 PM
John, was wasn't saying you are wrong, just asking why you held so tightly to those verses, giving the impression that there was no possibility that they were being interpreted incorrectly. I used to assume what I believed was right, I don't hold tightly anymore after I realized how much error I had been taught. If I have one verse of Scripture that goes counter to what I believe, what I believe immediately comes into question.Please don't confuse the confidence I have in some of my beliefs with the idea that I think I have all the answers. I don't. I just happen to be confident about certain things that I believe and so are you. That's nothing to be offended about, is it?


OK, what is the basis for thinking that the works in Ephesians 2:8 and 2:10 are the same works?Because Paul is speaking to Gentiles (see verse 11). The Gentiles were never under the law so why would Paul tell them that they can't be saved by works of the law? The Gentiles wouldn't have even been familiar with what the works of the law were.


That is what the Scriptures say, Clearly in Matthew 25 only those with good works get eternal life,and also in Romans 2, Paul says, those who in continual well doing are seeking eternal life. Now Paul is the biggest proponent of saved by faith, and yet he himself says that God will judge everyone according to their works, and he makes it clear that this judgment either leads to eternal life or rejection from it. However by doing these works we are not earning salvation. We could do all the works in the world, if God decided not to save us we won't be saved, so it is not the works that save it is God. But Jesus said at the judgment, the people will be judged, and depending on whether or not they did good works will determine where they go, those who did, eternal life. Those who did not, everlasting punishment.As long as you acknowledge that the works that Jesus talked about in Matthew 25:31-46 are not done in our own power, that's the main thing to me.


It is not about how many, it is about, are we doing them? The works don't save you so thee is no number. It is Jesus, if you love me keep my commands. He who keeps my commands, it is he would loves me.

John 14:24 ( KJV ) 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

We can say we love Jesus "all day long", but He said, if we do not keep His commands we do not love Him. So, it really doesn't matterwaht we say, it is what we do.And yet we don't have the power to keep His commands without His help. Our responsibility is to have faith and surrender our wills to Him so that He can work through us. Do you agree with that or not?


I have to differ with you here, I agree that we need the Spirit to do the work, however, I don't agree that God does the works for us.Really now? So, when Jesus says "Apart from me you can do nothing" He was joking? When Paul said "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" he really meant to say "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, but I can also do all things on my own"?


Now, notice I said "FOR US" not through us. God does the works through us, but "we must do the works". If we just sit home and do nothing, surely we don't think that God is doing work through usYes, we are required to have faith and surrender our wills to Him. We can't expect to just sit there and do nothing while God takes us over like we're puppets or robots. We have to take that initial action of faith and surrender and then He gives us the power to do what He commands us to do. If that's what you're trying to say then I'm with you there.

John146
Nov 18th 2008, 06:52 PM
Hi Eric,

I'm not getting my point across. The works don't save, Jesus saves. He will judge everyone at the judgment. He said in Matthew 25, that the criteria for this judgment will be what kind of works you have done, He did not say how many good works, He only said if you do good works. Look at the parable of the talents, one was given 5, one was given 2, and one was given 1. The man with 5 returned an additional 5 , the master praised him, the man with 2 returned an additional 2, the master praised him, the man with one buried it and returned only the one talent, and the master said throw the worthless servant out in darkness where there will be gnashing of teeth.

Notice what He says, both the man who had 5 and the man who had 2 talents were equally praised, yet the man who did nothing was called a worthless servant and cast into hell.

The master did not judge them on how much of a return they had, He judged them on whether or not the had a return. The man who did nothing had no return and was cast out. So, it isn't how many works we do, it is a matter of whether or not we do the works. When the master returns will we hand him 5 talents plus 5 more or will we say here is the one talent that you left with me?You are still coming across as if our own works of righteousness play a part in our salvation. That would contradict Titus 3:5 (and Eph 2:8-9, IMO).

Let me put it this way: does it say that people are condemned for not believing in Christ or does it say people are condemned for not doing good works? The works we do can reflect whether or not we have faith in Christ (known by our fruits) but it is whether one has faith in Christ or not that ultimately determines whether one is condemned or not (John 3:18). Agree?

Hebrews 11:6 says "without faith it is impossible to please God". It doesn't say "without works it is impossible to please God". So, what will please God on judgment day is not the works we have done, but the faith we have shown in His Son that made it so that the Spirit could work through us in conjunction with our faith.

looking4jesus
Nov 18th 2008, 09:35 PM
Randy,

Why don't you start a new thread and layout from Scripture the doctrine of OSAS. You can build your case and see if it stands. It is a very important issue as you have said, so why not go ahead and do that?

Well Butch,

I have found it to be a waste of time. There have been just as many pro OSAS scriptures quoted as NSAS here. You will always end up in the same place. But you are wrong Butch on this and how I know is simply my own life example I departed and turned away from Jesus Christ for 25 years yet the Holy Spirit never left me. It is really that simple. There havea lso been other folks here telling you the same story that they departed and the Holy Spirit brought them back. You need to go by real lie examples that also follow Gods word. You have no real life example Butch because to prove what your saying as a real life example a person would have to come back from hell to tell their story. Simple Butch we can tell our story and match it with Scripture all you can do is quote some proof texts but you cannot offer any real life example hence you fall short of your proof as it should be because you are teaching a false doctrine.
Ok that all I have to say I rest my case an dmay God Bless the new young Christians thta their faith does not become damage by such a bellief.
I am living proof that OSAS is the real thing and have 25 years of history to show this
God Bless
Randy

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 06:07 PM
Well Butch,

I have found it to be a waste of time. There have been just as many pro OSAS scriptures quoted as NSAS here. You will always end up in the same place. But you are wrong Butch on this and how I know is simply my own life example I departed and turned away from Jesus Christ for 25 years yet the Holy Spirit never left me. It is really that simple. There havea lso been other folks here telling you the same story that they departed and the Holy Spirit brought them back. You need to go by real lie examples that also follow Gods word. You have no real life example Butch because to prove what your saying as a real life example a person would have to come back from hell to tell their story. Simple Butch we can tell our story and match it with Scripture all you can do is quote some proof texts but you cannot offer any real life example hence you fall short of your proof as it should be because you are teaching a false doctrine.
Ok that all I have to say I rest my case an dmay God Bless the new young Christians thta their faith does not become damage by such a bellief.
I am living proof that OSAS is the real thing and have 25 years of history to show this
God Bless
Randy

First of all Randy, you don't know my past. I too can give evidence, I have not walked as I should have in the past. That being said, you are not living proof that OSAS is true because you are still alive. You cannot say that 3 years from you will not turn away.

Concerning the verses of Scripture, I would rather preach doctrine from Scripture(infallible)than from my own feelings (which are fallible).

The logical conclusion is this, both OSAS and NOSAS cannot be true. Therefore one side has their Scripture verses out of context. That is why I proposed that you start a new thread and layout your case, then we could look at the Scriptures and see which are in context and which are not. It seems to me you are more concerned with believing your doctrine, I think you are fearful that it will be shown to be false.

Think about this, if I am wrong and I have warned people to live a holy life for God, what have I lost ? What has anyone who lived as I said, lost? Nothing.

However, If someone believes OSAS and continues to sin thinking they cannot be lost (as I did when I believed OSAS) and then at the judgment they find out that OSAS is false, What Have they lost? Eternal life. And what about the guy who taught them that they could not lose their salvation? What will God require at his hand???

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 06:11 PM
You are still coming across as if our own works of righteousness play a part in our salvation. That would contradict Titus 3:5 (and Eph 2:8-9, IMO).

Let me put it this way: does it say that people are condemned for not believing in Christ or does it say people are condemned for not doing good works? The works we do can reflect whether or not we have faith in Christ (known by our fruits) but it is whether one has faith in Christ or not that ultimately determines whether one is condemned or not (John 3:18). Agree?

Hebrews 11:6 says "without faith it is impossible to please God". It doesn't say "without works it is impossible to please God". So, what will please God on judgment day is not the works we have done, but the faith we have shown in His Son that made it so that the Spirit could work through us in conjunction with our faith.

John,

I have posted before that Scripture speaks of salvation in 3 tenses. Past present and future. Titus 3:5 speaks of the past tense of salvation. Once we are saved Christ commands us to do good works, as Jesus said, he who keeps my commands, it is he who loves me. His commands are the good works. The judgment in Matthew 25 speaks of the future tense, if we have not works we will not be saved.

Butch5
Nov 19th 2008, 06:53 PM
John ---Please don't confuse the confidence I have in some of my beliefs with the idea that I think I have all the answers. I don't. I just happen to be confident about certain things that I believe and so are you. That's nothing to be offended about, is it?

No.



John ---Because Paul is speaking to Gentiles (see verse 11). The Gentiles were never under the law so why would Paul tell them that they can't be saved by works of the law? The Gentiles wouldn't have even been familiar with what the works of the law were.


OK, yes he is talking to gentiles, and most likely were familiar with the law, they may not have been intimately familiar, but they probably had an idea of what the Jews were doing. But look at what Paul says, you who were called uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision, he says at that time you were without Christ, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, Strangers to the covenants of promise, he says they were without hope and without God. Then He says but now you have been brought near? How? By Christ. What did He do? He made both Jew and gentile one. How? He broke down the middle wall of partition that separated them. He abolished in His flesh, the Law of commandments contained in ordinances. So Paul told the Ephesians in 2:8 that they are not saved by works, then He goes on to explain why they are not saved by works. It is because Christ abolished the Law of works. This is in contrast to the good works which Paul mentions in verse 10.


John ---As long as you acknowledge that the works that Jesus talked about in Matthew 25:31-46 are not done in our own power, that's the main thing to me.

I'm not sure what you mean by our power.



John ---And yet we don't have the power to keep His commands without His help. Our responsibility is to have faith and surrender our wills to Him so that He can work through us. Do you agree with that or not?


Yes.


John ---Really now? So, when Jesus says "Apart from me you can do nothing" He was joking? When Paul said "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" he really meant to say "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, but I can also do all things on my own"?


My point was that God is not just going to work through us if we don't do anything.

Veretax
Nov 19th 2008, 06:53 PM
First of all Randy, you don't know my past. I too can give evidence, I have not walked as I should have in the past. That being said, you are not living proof that OSAS is true because you are still alive. You cannot say that 3 years from you will not turn away.

Concerning the verses of Scripture, I would rather preach doctrine from Scripture(infallible)than from my own feelings (which are fallible).

The logical conclusion is this, both OSAS and NOSAS cannot be true. Therefore one side has their Scripture verses out of context. That is why I proposed that you start a new thread and layout your case, then we could look at the Scriptures and see which are in context and which are not. It seems to me you are more concerned with believing your doctrine, I think you are fearful that it will be shown to be false.

Think about this, if I am wrong and I have warned people to live a holy life for God, what have I lost ? What has anyone who lived as I said, lost? Nothing.

However, If someone believes OSAS and continues to sin thinking they cannot be lost (as I did when I believed OSAS) and then at the judgment they find out that OSAS is false, What Have they lost? Eternal life. And what about the guy who taught them that they could not lose their salvation? What will God require at his hand???

One thing I will add, is that Paul, Peter, and John, both wrote a few passages about making sure of our salvation. Now either what Butch says is correct in this regard, or these passages exist because its possible for someone to be deceived into believing that they are in fact saved, when they actually are not. (remember what Christ said, that many would come and say did we not do miracles, cast out demons, etc. Jesus said to them, depart from me I never knew you.)


So its important to remember that we need to make sure our faith, whether one view or the other is right, because where eternity is concerned. IMHO I'd rather err on the side of Caution, and make certain that my faith is real, comparing my daily walk with the bible, then just assuming it is okay and then finding out later I was wrong. If that makes any sense. (even though, personally, I believe I'm saved, and always well be, I take such verses to heart knowing that its good to make sure that I am, because I have known people who did not manifest fruit or works to prove their faith.)

looking4jesus
Nov 20th 2008, 02:59 AM
First of all Randy, you don't know my past. I too can give evidence, I have not walked as I should have in the past. That being said, you are not living proof that OSAS is true because you are still alive. You cannot say that 3 years from you will not turn away.

Concerning the verses of Scripture, I would rather preach doctrine from Scripture(infallible)than from my own feelings (which are fallible).

The logical conclusion is this, both OSAS and NOSAS cannot be true. Therefore one side has their Scripture verses out of context. That is why I proposed that you start a new thread and layout your case, then we could look at the Scriptures and see which are in context and which are not. It seems to me you are more concerned with believing your doctrine, I think you are fearful that it will be shown to be false.

Think about this, if I am wrong and I have warned people to live a holy life for God, what have I lost ? What has anyone who lived as I said, lost? Nothing.

However, If someone believes OSAS and continues to sin thinking they cannot be lost (as I did when I believed OSAS) and then at the judgment they find out that OSAS is false, What Have they lost? Eternal life. And what about the guy who taught them that they could not lose their salvation? What will God require at his hand???

But you see Butch there lies the rub. If in 3 years I turn away I am still saved so that assumption of yours is a moot issue.

I do understand what your saying about warning people and of course OSAS is not a license to sin but you see if you are really saved the Holy Spirit is with you always so when you do sin you are conscious of that sin.

God Bless
Randy

kenrank
Nov 20th 2008, 01:24 PM
The whole works thing divides people, 3300 denominations and growing, but yes I believe that we will be judged by our actions. I just happen to think it will be a good thing. Cleansing. Burning up the old man and placing me in a position to fully know God. The things that are wood, hay and stubble will give way to gold, silver and precious jewels.

All shall be well!

3300? When you include the unaffiliated sects, it is closer to 20,000! Amazing huh? (and sad!)
Peace.
Ken

Butch5
Nov 21st 2008, 01:03 AM
But you see Butch there lies the rub. If in 3 years I turn away I am still saved so that assumption of yours is a moot issue.

I do understand what your saying about warning people and of course OSAS is not a license to sin but you see if you are really saved the Holy Spirit is with you always so when you do sin you are conscious of that sin.

God Bless
Randy

There in lies the problem, you think if you turn away you are still saved, however that is not what Scripture says.

Hebrews 10:38-39 ( KJV) 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The writer here clearly says, a man can draw back, notice he says they can draw back to perdition. What is Perdition? Remember Judas was a son of perdition.

Hebrews 10:26-29 ( KJV ) 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

This person was sanctified by the blood of Christ, and yet he faces judgment and fiery indignation

You can however, harden your heat to the holy Spirit.

Butch5
Nov 21st 2008, 01:04 AM
3300? When you include the unaffiliated sects, it is closer to 20,000! Amazing huh? (and sad!)
Peace.
Ken


And Christ prayed that we would be one.

kenrank
Nov 21st 2008, 06:15 AM
And Christ prayed that we would be one.

There is only one...many people just don't know it yet! :)
Ken

TexasBeliever
Nov 21st 2008, 12:11 PM
I agree with saved by grace, but then you have this scripture where we are admonished to "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

I think that means, don't take for granted your salvation by thinking you can behave anyway you want and not be judged or condemned.

Even Christ said, " Teach them to OBSERVE everything I have taught you."

RogerW
Nov 21st 2008, 10:55 PM
I agree with saved by grace, but then you have this scripture where we are admonished to "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

I think that means, don't take for granted your salvation by thinking you can behave anyway you want and not be judged or condemned.

Even Christ said, " Teach them to OBSERVE everything I have taught you."

Greetings TB,

I believe you are right, it does mean we should not take our salvation for granted. So how can we be sure that we have truly received His saving grace that will produce good works?

....work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Many Blessings,
RW

looking4jesus
Nov 21st 2008, 11:07 PM
Greetings TB,

I believe you are right, it does mean we should not take our salvation for granted. So how can we be sure that we have truly received His saving grace that will produce good works?

....work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Many Blessings,
RW

Exactly you cannot work out something you do not have!
Working out your salvation is just like workingº out a muscle
You can be lazy and flabby or lean and fit.
God bless
Randy