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DurbanDude
Nov 16th 2008, 06:52 AM
A couple of years back I was meditating on these verse and came to a strange conclusion:

12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

This says the following to me: Satan is initially accusing the brethren and his place is in heaven while he is doing this. This appears to be the current situation where Satan is our accuser before God, and many have been and will be martyred for Christ. Satan's position is in heaven and he is furious when he is cast out of heaven. But only after he is cast out of heaven does his full wrath focus on the earth. In other words Satan appears to prefer to be in heaven and it takes a war to throw him out, because he knows his time will be short when he is cast down to earth.

Does this mean that Satan is restraining himself because he wants to keep his place in heaven? Only when Satan is taken out of the way through the testimony of the brethren will his full wrath come to earth for a short period.

Discussion Topic: Do you think Revelation 12 could possibly relate to
2 Thessalonians 2 ??
6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only `there is' one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;
9 `even he', whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


Here we see that the one who restrains has to be taken out of the way before the revealing of the "lawless one" . We know this is when the final period of tribulation begins and verse 9 indicates an increase in the working of Satan (which fits in with Rev 12 about the short period of wrath). According to verse 6 the restrainer will "be revealed in his own season", and according to verse 8 the "lawless one will be revealed". Either 2 separate entities are revealed, or 2Thess 6-8 is already identifying the restrainer as the lawless one.

Back2Front
Nov 16th 2008, 07:36 AM
A couple of years back I was meditating on these verse and came to a strange conclusion:

12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

This says the following to me: Satan is initially accusing the brethren and his place is in heaven while he is doing this. This appears to be the current situation where Satan is our accuser before God, and many have been and will be martyred for Christ. Satan's position is in heaven and he is furious when he is cast out of heaven. But only after he is cast out of heaven does his full wrath focus on the earth. In other words Satan appears to prefer to be in heaven and it takes a war to throw him out, because he knows his time will be short when he is cast down to earth.

Does this mean that Satan is restraining himself because he wants to keep his place in heaven? Only when Satan is taken out of the way through the testimony of the brethren will his full wrath come to earth for a short period.

Discussion Topic: Do you think Revelation 12 could possibly relate to
2 Thessalonians 2 ??
6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only `there is' one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;
9 `even he', whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


Here we see that the one who restrains has to be taken out of the way before the revealing of the "lawless one" . We know this is when the final period of tribulation begins and verse 9 indicates an increase in the working of Satan (which fits in with Rev 12 about the short period of wrath). According to verse 6 the restrainer will "be revealed in his own season", and according to verse 8 the "lawless one will be revealed".



This is a pretty good question that shows your knowledge well. I guess all I can say is this:

His restraint comes from a belief that he still has a chance. He thinks he still has a chance because he is being allowed to accuse.

Are you familiar with the term; 'When Horses fly' and the story behind it?

Then lastly to answer your question directly, yes I do believe that 2 Thes and Rev 12 are directly related. BUT, When was John at Patmos writing Rev, and when did Paul write 2 Thes?

DurbanDude
Nov 16th 2008, 07:55 AM
This is a pretty good question that shows your knowledge well. I guess all I can say is this:

His restraint comes from a belief that he still has a chance. He thinks he still has a chance because he is being allowed to accuse.

Are you familiar with the term; 'When Horses fly' and the story behind it?

Then lastly to answer your question directly, yes I do believe that 2 Thes and Rev 12 are directly related. BUT, When was John at Patmos writing Rev, and when did Paul write 2 Thes?

Hmm? Just wondering how you know what satan believes or thinks ? Maybe his restraint is just because he wants to defer his end, or he prefers accusing the saints to a short period of earthly rule.

I haven't heard of that term "when horses fly", mabe you could tell me more?

I would guess Rev was written abot 90 AD , and 2 Thess apparently 51/52 AD , why do you ask?

Back2Front
Nov 16th 2008, 09:28 AM
When Horses fly:

There once was a court Jester that often made the King and his court very happy through his talents to entertain and marry make.

After a period of time the King even befriended the Jester. One day, The Jester was entertaining the Kings court. Through the familiarity that had grown between the Jester and the King, The Jester began making personal jokes about the King and his family. The Entire court was in an uproar with laughter. The Jester didn't realize that the King though, wasn't laughing.

Then the King spoke, and the court grew dead silent. He asked the Jester,

"Why are you sharing with this court private things I have told you as a friend in private. Can you not see that it is causing my subjects to laugh at me, mock me, and stand against me? Can you not see that for the price af a simple laugh you have betrayed our friendship and my trust for you?"

The Jester replied back,

"Perhaps It is you who are my fool, and not I that is yours."

At that statement, without a command, the guards of the court immediately rose up and seized the Jester. The King then ordained,

"Prepare the gallows immediately, as this man is guilty of treason through the presumption of his wicked heart, causing this blasphemy of his tongue! Today this kingdom rids itself of such a one! Take him away!"

With that the guards began to take the seized Jester away to be prepared with a beating for his hanging.

But the King was a good King, a merciful King, and a forgiving King. So as the guards were dragging the Jester from the court, hearing the pleas from his once friend to spare his life, the King ordered them to stop. He asked the Jester anticipating repentance,

"How say you!"

But instead the Jester offered the King a deal.

He said,

"If you spare my life, I will go to the field where you keep your Prize Horses and teach them to fly."

Immediately about one third of the Kings court ran to the King to try to convince him to take the deal.

It was at that time the King became aware that treason existed throughout his court. His once trusted friend betrayed him, begged that his life be spared, but instead of repenting, is offering a phony deal that a portion of his court agrees with.

Being smarter and wiser than the Jester and his followers, the King needed time to assemble and train his soldiers to defeat the Jester and expose and kill all of his followers.

So the King told the Jester,

"You and all of these whom have convinced me on your behalf, will be confined to the field with my Prize Horses. You have one year."

After a very short time of being in the field, one of the followers asked their leader the Jester,

"Why have you made this impossible deal with the King?"

The Jester replied,

"I have bought us a year to convince these horses to fight against the King with you and I. Maybe in that year the King may just die. Perhaps you and I or the horses will just die. Or maybe, just maybe, these horses will fly."



Hmm? Just wondering how you know what satan believes or thinks?

He talks to me a lot and tells me often what he believes and thinks. He is constantly trying to get me to see it his way.

DurbanDude
Nov 16th 2008, 09:35 AM
OK I see what you are saying , somethinglike this: Satan is trying to buy some time hoping that circumstances change, trying to "make a plan".

Back2Front
Nov 16th 2008, 09:43 AM
OK I see what you are saying , somethinglike this: Satan is trying to buy some time hoping that circumstances change, trying to "make a plan".

Pretty unreasonable plan that many buy and have bought. Even some Angels according to scripture.

But I wonder why God's letting him do it?

SammeyDW
Nov 16th 2008, 11:40 AM
Pretty unreasonable plan that many buy and have bought. Even some Angels according to scripture.

But I wonder why God's letting him do it?

The only explanation that I can come up with is free will.
HE doesn't want to force anyone including angels,former angels, or any other created being to
worship, serve, and Love Him no matter how much He desires it.
It must come from the Heart and Soul or it is worthless to Him.

DurbanDude
Nov 16th 2008, 11:43 AM
Pretty unreasonable plan that many buy and have bought. Even some Angels according to scripture.

But I wonder why God's letting him do it?

Back2Front, have you got a hidden agenda with all these questions? I would like to know your full thoughts on the subject upfront please.

I don't know why God allows Satan to accuse us before him in God's presence. According to Rev 12 it appears that God is waiting for the brethren (us saints) to overcome through our testimony. (Maybe this means that the gospel must first be preached to every man.) But it seems as if Satan has that authority to be there in God's presence until the brethren overcome by the blood of the lamb (Rev 12:11) and Satan will not leave there until forced out.

divaD
Nov 16th 2008, 06:05 PM
A couple of years back I was meditating on these verse and came to a strange conclusion:

12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

This says the following to me: Satan is initially accusing the brethren and his place is in heaven while he is doing this. This appears to be the current situation where Satan is our accuser before God, and many have been and will be martyred for Christ. Satan's position is in heaven and he is furious when he is cast out of heaven. But only after he is cast out of heaven does his full wrath focus on the earth. In other words Satan appears to prefer to be in heaven and it takes a war to throw him out, because he knows his time will be short when he is cast down to earth.

Does this mean that Satan is restraining himself because he wants to keep his place in heaven? Only when Satan is taken out of the way through the testimony of the brethren will his full wrath come to earth for a short period.

Discussion Topic: Do you think Revelation 12 could possibly relate to
2 Thessalonians 2 ??
6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only `there is' one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;
9 `even he', whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


Here we see that the one who restrains has to be taken out of the way before the revealing of the "lawless one" . We know this is when the final period of tribulation begins and verse 9 indicates an increase in the working of Satan (which fits in with Rev 12 about the short period of wrath). According to verse 6 the restrainer will "be revealed in his own season", and according to verse 8 the "lawless one will be revealed". Either 2 separate entities are revealed, or 2Thess 6-8 is already identifying the restrainer as the lawless one.






2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 *And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


Let's look at verse 6. And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

The first question we need to ask, restraineth what? Obviously the answer should be within the previous 5 verses. But before we answer that, let's ask the next question. Who might be revealed in his time? Once again, the answer should be contained within the prev 5 verses. So let's look.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There's the answer, it's the revealing of the man of sin. Since we now know that, what is the revealing of the man of sin restraining? Let's take a look.


Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,

There's the answer, the revealing of the man of sin is restraining the coming of Christ. IOW, verses 3 and 4 have to happen before Christ can return.


Also, I've tried to explain this in the past but apparently no one caught on. Take a look at this phrase in verse 7 in the Greek "until he be taken out of the way". You should be able to clearly see that no one is being taken out of the way, but someone is coming to be out of the midst. IMO, this would be the fullfillment of verse 4. After verse 4 is entirely fullfilled, then can verse 8 come to pass.

looking4jesus
Nov 16th 2008, 06:21 PM
The only explanation that I can come up with is free will.
HE doesn't want to force anyone including angels,former angels, or any other created being to
worship, serve, and Love Him no matter how much He desires it.
It must come from the Heart and Soul or it is worthless to Him.

Yes Sammy you nailed it with your post. This is exactly why God allows Satan and everyone to do as they please for a season . It is free will. Free will is one of the most if not the most close thing to Gods heart. The whole Bible from the very start to the end is simply about free will and to Obey God. that is it in a nutshell. Adam had free will but in truth once Adam sinned there was no more free will all man then had a sin nature that was programed to sin.
It was only when Jesus came and died on the cross wit his shed blood that Man once again had free will as man in Gods sight then became sinless as God would look at born again man through the blood of his son.
Everything in the Bible is simply out free will of man and to Obey God.
This earth and the heaven also is in a fallen nature now because of orginal sin and Satan does have freedom now and is the prince of this world for now, however our promise of God is that there will be a new heaven and a new earth and this time man should get it right from the get go and not fall into the trap of not obeying God.
God Bless
Randy

quiet dove
Nov 16th 2008, 07:08 PM
There's the answer, the revealing of the man of sin is restraining the coming of Christ. IOW, verses 3 and 4 have to happen before Christ can return.


How can the man of sin possibly be restraining Almighty God? Christ returns and throws the man of sin in the lake of fire. The man of sin and Satan himself can only do as they are allowed, how could either one of them possibly be restraining Jesus Second Advent or the rapture for that matter? How could either one of them restrain God in any way with anything?

Back2Front
Nov 16th 2008, 07:21 PM
How can the man of sin possibly be restraining Almighty God? Christ returns and throws the man of sin in the lake of fire. The man of sin and Satan himself can only do as they are allowed, how could either one of them possibly be restraining Jesus Second Advent or the rapture for that matter? How could either one of them restrain God in any way with anything?

Very very well put. They indeed cannot, but are still trying aren't they? Yet are being allowed to do so not of their own authority, but of Gods permission.

That seems to be for his benefit through us somehow. Perhaps to prove that all is done upon his authority, as well as proof of those who will actively choose him given free will.

quiet dove
Nov 16th 2008, 07:25 PM
Very very well put. They indeed cannot, but are still trying aren't they? Yet are being allowed to do so not of their own authority, but of Gods permission.

That seems to be for his benefit through us somehow. Perhaps to prove that all is done upon his authority, as well as proof of those who will actively choose him given free will.

I don't believe that Satan is being allowed to restrain Christ. I believe that the only freedom for any, man/woman, from the bondage of Satan and his kingdom is Christ, but that is not a restraining of Christ in any way. Satan is a lion roaming to find who he might devour, but that is not restraining Christ, it is restraining or hindering men. And that Satan can only do as he is allowed is not Satan restraining Christ, but Christ restraining Satan.

Back2Front
Nov 16th 2008, 07:42 PM
I don't believe that Satan is being allowed to restrain Christ.

Sorry if that is the impression I have left, and in no way am I saying this either.


I believe that the only freedom for any, man/woman, from the bondage of Satan and his kingdom is Christ, but that is not a restraining of Christ in any way. Satan is a lion roaming to find who he might devour, but that is not restraining Christ, it is restraining or hindering men. And that Satan can only do as he is allowed is not Satan restraining Christ, but Christ restraining Satan.

Yes that is exactly what I was saying as well.

Could you please do me a favor and take the time to quote me where I may have left the impression that I'm saying that I might think that Satan is restraining Christ?

I fear I have misrepresented myself and Christ by your responses to my posts, and this is pretty important to me that I don't do that.

Thank you

divaD
Nov 16th 2008, 07:43 PM
How can the man of sin possibly be restraining Almighty God? Christ returns and throws the man of sin in the lake of fire. The man of sin and Satan himself can only do as they are allowed, how could either one of them possibly be restraining Jesus Second Advent or the rapture for that matter? How could either one of them restrain God in any way with anything?



quiet dove, here are the verses.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time


In verse 6 we learn that something is being restrained until someone is revealed. The answer has to be within the preceding 5 verses. If verse 3 tells us the one that needs to be revealed is the man of sin, then it would be the revealing of the man of sin that is holding back the return of Christ. Verse 6 is simply telling us that the revealing of the man of sin is holding back the return of Christ, because the man of sin has to be revealed in his time. In order for him to even be revealed in his time, there must first come a falling away and verse 4 has to be fullfilled before Christ will return.

If by the coming of Christ, that Wicked will be revealed, whom then He shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, it would make no sense if Christ came before verse 4 was fullfilled. But let's look at it from that perspective for a moment. Christ comes back before verse 4 is fullfilled. Please explain how that would work?

quiet dove
Nov 16th 2008, 08:07 PM
quiet dove, here are the verses.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time


In verse 6 we learn that something is being restrained until someone is revealed. The answer has to be within the preceding 5 verses. If verse 3 tells us the one that needs to be revealed is the man of sin, then it would be the revealing of the man of sin that is holding back the return of Christ. Verse 6 is simply telling us that the revealing of the man of sin is holding back the return of Christ, because the man of sin has to be revealed in his time. In order for him to even be revealed in his time, there must first come a falling away and verse 4 has to be fullfilled before Christ will return.

If by the coming of Christ, that Wicked will be revealed, whom then He shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, it would make no sense if Christ came before verse 4 was fullfilled. But let's look at it from that perspective for a moment. Christ comes back before verse 4 is fullfilled. Please explain how that would work?


I disagree, I believe it tells us something is restrained, and when the restrainment is taken out of the way, what was restrained is then revealed.

The answer may be within the previous 5 verses but it does not have to be.

What is restrained is the same thing that is revealed. What is restraining is an entirely different entity. And IMHO, to say that Satan is restraining Christ is exactly backwards to what the verses are saying.

Saved7
Nov 16th 2008, 08:08 PM
A couple of years back I was meditating on these verse and came to a strange conclusion:

12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

This says the following to me: Satan is initially accusing the brethren and his place is in heaven while he is doing this. This appears to be the current situation where Satan is our accuser before God, and many have been and will be martyred for Christ. Satan's position is in heaven and he is furious when he is cast out of heaven. But only after he is cast out of heaven does his full wrath focus on the earth. In other words Satan appears to prefer to be in heaven and it takes a war to throw him out, because he knows his time will be short when he is cast down to earth.

Does this mean that Satan is restraining himself because he wants to keep his place in heaven? Only when Satan is taken out of the way through the testimony of the brethren will his full wrath come to earth for a short period.

Discussion Topic: Do you think Revelation 12 could possibly relate to
2 Thessalonians 2 ??
6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only `there is' one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;
9 `even he', whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


Here we see that the one who restrains has to be taken out of the way before the revealing of the "lawless one" . We know this is when the final period of tribulation begins and verse 9 indicates an increase in the working of Satan (which fits in with Rev 12 about the short period of wrath). According to verse 6 the restrainer will "be revealed in his own season", and according to verse 8 the "lawless one will be revealed". Either 2 separate entities are revealed, or 2Thess 6-8 is already identifying the restrainer as the lawless one.




Hmm, very interesting perspective.:hmm: I think you have given me something to think about.:hmm:

quiet dove
Nov 16th 2008, 08:20 PM
This says the following to me: Satan is initially accusing the brethren and his place is in heaven while he is doing this. This appears to be the current situation where Satan is our accuser before God, and many have been and will be martyred for Christ. Satan's position is in heaven and he is furious when he is cast out of heaven. But only after he is cast out of heaven does his full wrath focus on the earth. In other words Satan appears to prefer to be in heaven and it takes a war to throw him out, because he knows his time will be short when he is cast down to earth.

Does this mean that Satan is restraining himself because he wants to keep his place in heaven? Only when Satan is taken out of the way through the testimony of the brethren will his full wrath come to earth for a short period.

Discussion Topic: Do you think Revelation 12 could possibly relate to
2 Thessalonians 2 ??
6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only `there is' one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;
9 `even he', whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


Here we see that the one who restrains has to be taken out of the way before the revealing of the "lawless one" . We know this is when the final period of tribulation begins and verse 9 indicates an increase in the working of Satan (which fits in with Rev 12 about the short period of wrath). According to verse 6 the restrainer will "be revealed in his own season", and according to verse 8 the "lawless one will be revealed". Either 2 separate entities are revealed, or 2Thess 6-8 is already identifying the restrainer as the lawless one.



Satan prefers to be tormenting and accusing the men/women of God.

How could we think Satan restrains himself when he is a lion, seeking who he may devour, the last thing he would do is restrain himself. When he accused Job, he was hardly restraining himself.

divaD
Nov 16th 2008, 08:25 PM
I disagree, I believe it tells us something is restrained, and when the restrainment is taken out of the way, what was restrained is then revealed.

The answer may be within the previous 5 verses but it does not have to be.

What is restrained is the same thing that is revealed. What is restraining is an entirely different entity. And IMHO, to say that Satan is restraining Christ is exactly backwards to what the verses are saying.



quiet dove, you're simply misunderstanding me. I'm certainly not saying that satan has the power to restrain the coming of Christ. I'm saying that the man of sin must be revealed before Christ can return. That's certainly not the same thing as satan literally having the power to restrain the coming of Christ.

Here's what I basically believe. I apologize if I don't ezplain this very well.

Unfullfilled prophecies in the Bible are already laid out on a timeline so to speak. This means, in order for the Bible to be true, these prophecies must happen exactly as written, and in their exact orders, there's not a power in the universe that's going to cause any of the unfullfilled prophecies not come to pass, nor even change their orders of occurances.

So, if we're told in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 that our gathering together unto Him can't happen until the man of sin is revealed, then personally speaking, I'm going to believe what the Bible is clearly stating here. If anyone else chooses not to believe what the Bible is clearly staing here, then that's their choice, but this chapter makes it clear, none of us will be gathered together unto Him until there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin is revealed.

"2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means." Paul stated this for a reason. Personally, I take this warning to heart, that is why I carefully read what the text is saying. The text reveals the intent of the message.

quiet dove
Nov 16th 2008, 08:56 PM
quiet dove, you're simply misunderstanding me. I'm certainly not saying that satan has the power to restrain the coming of Christ. I'm saying that the man of sin must be revealed before Christ can return. That's certainly not the same thing as satan literally having the power to restrain the coming of Christ.

I agree that the man of sin will be revealed before Christ Second Advent. Maybe not that he "must" be, but I do agree that scripture says he will be.



Here's what I basically believe. I apologize if I don't ezplain this very well.

Unfullfilled prophecies in the Bible are already laid out on a timeline so to speak. This means, in order for the Bible to be true, these prophecies must happen exactly as written, and in their exact orders, there's not a power in the universe that's going to cause any of the unfullfilled prophecies not come to pass, nor even change their orders of occurances. Agreed. :)



So, if we're told in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 that our gathering together unto Him can't happen until the man of sin is revealed, then personally speaking, I'm going to believe what the Bible is clearly stating here. If anyone else chooses not to believe what the Bible is clearly staing here, then that's their choice, but this chapter makes it clear, none of us will be gathered together unto Him until there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin is revealed.

"2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means." Paul stated this for a reason. Personally, I take this warning to heart, that is why I carefully read what the text is saying. The text reveals the intent of the message.Well, personally speaking, I am going to believe what the Bible says also, the situation is, you and I disagree with what the Bible is stating here.

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

We need to follow the thought to it's completion.

1 - falling away
3 - man of sin is revealed
4- Christ Second Advent
2 - the He who restrains, taken out of the way.

It depends on who the restrainer is, because the lawless one will not be revealed until after apostacy, and after the restrainment is removed. I believe the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit within the entity of the Body of Christ. You may disagree, but that does not equate to either one of us denying the reliability of scritpure, just means we disagree with what is being said within scripture.

But I disagree that scripture teaches anywhere that Satan care enough about anything to restrain himself, but quite the contrary, he will do whatever he can do destroy man kind and is only restrained by Gods allowing or not allowing.

DurbanDude
Nov 16th 2008, 09:05 PM
Satan prefers to be tormenting and accusing the men/women of God.

How could we think Satan restrains himself when he is a lion, seeking who he may devour, the last thing he would do is restrain himself. When he accused Job, he was hardly restraining himself.

Hi QD , yes that is what I am saying too , that Satan prefers to be accusing the brethren while he is in his position in heaven. He is therefore delaying the full manifestation of his wrath and delaying the revealing of the lawless one because he prefers his other role as accuser, and he knows that his time will be short when he loses his place in heaven. This is what Rev 12 is saying to me. As soon as he is cast out of heaven Satan's full wrath will be released on earth for that short period until Jesus comes, that's what Rev 12 says. And Rev 12 also clearly indicates that it takes a war to throw Satan out of his heavenly position yet Satan causes more wrath on earth AFTER he is thrown out. So Satan chooses to fight a war to attempt to protect his current status rather than being on earth with great wrath for a short period. So after reading Rev 12 it really does sound like he is trying to hold back God's timetable.

And this fits in perfectly with what we know about the lawless one in Thess 2:2 and other verses in the bible, that he will be revealed and have a short period of evil authority until Jesus comes.

DurbanDude
Nov 16th 2008, 10:02 PM
I believe the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit within the entity of the Body of Christ. You may disagree, but that does not equate to either one of us denying the reliability of scritpure, just means we disagree with what is being said within scripture.

But I disagree that scripture teaches anywhere that Satan care enough about anything to restrain himself, but quite the contrary, he will do whatever he can do destroy man kind and is only restrained by Gods allowing or not allowing.

I personally think you have the roles and motivation the wrong way around. The church and the Holy Spirit are there to speed up the process , and sin and Satan are trying to delay the process. We are looking forward to the New Heaven and New Earth while Satan is trying to delay his own destruction. The unfortunate period of tribulation under the authority of the antichrist is still something we want to happen quickly yet Satan wants to delay it as much as possible. It is the church and the Holy Spirit that are pushing to have the gospel complete its work on earth , to bring the end-times quicker , to speed up the coming of Christ.

If we understood this better I think we would push harder to finalise our testimony to the ends of the earth.

2Peter:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Our job is to speed up the coming of the day of God , which we know only happens after the lawless one is revealed. Our mandate is to evangelise all people.

It could therefore be assumed that Satan is trying to slow down the day that the brethren complete the job of testimony , because the result is him being cast out of heaven for only a short period on earth. (Rev 12)

quiet dove
Nov 16th 2008, 10:19 PM
I'm sorry, but the logic of Satan restraining Satan, I just disagree with and is not what I get from reading any passage thus far. I mean Satan is going to be "taken out of the way" so Satan won't be restrained?

We are told just a few verses before in Peter that all things are sustained by God, we are not in control nor are any of our actions a determiner of the time of His return, we are told to always be living in such a way that we will not be ashamed when we see Him.

IMHO, the word "hasten" is better defined by, to eagerly await. That application of the word "hasten", to me, better fits with the whole of scripture in that we should live accordingly, living in a way that causes us to eagerly await His return, not speed up His return. God has already determined the events and when they will happen, none of it depends on man in any way. Thats my belief anyway.

DurbanDude
Nov 16th 2008, 10:37 PM
I'm sorry, but the logic of Satan restraining Satan, I just disagree with and is not what I get from reading any passage thus far. I mean Satan is going to be "taken out of the way" so Satan won't be restrained?

When you describe it like that it obviously does sound illogical.

A better way of describing it would be that Satan is the restrainer or delayer of his forced removal from heaven and therefore forced manifestation on earth. I.E. Satan must be taken out of the way (out of heaven) before he manifests in the rule of the "lawless one"/antichrist. This is easy to understand, and in my opinion very easy to see in Rev 12, and 2Thess 2

quiet dove
Nov 16th 2008, 11:05 PM
When you describe it like that it obviously does sound illogical.

A better way of describing it would be that Satan is the restrainer or delayer of his forced removal from heaven and therefore forced manifestation on earth. This is easy to understand, and in my opinion very easy to see in Rev 12.


How can Satan be the retrainer of himself still having access to heaven? His access to heaven is only possible because God is allowing it, not because Satan has any say so over it and thus could restrain or delay his expulsion. I'm sorry, I still don't agree with that scenario.

I think we agree that the coming of the lawless one is according to the power of Satan.

2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
Rev 13:4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast;.....

And in my understanding of what is stated in Thess, How does forcibly tossing Satan out of heaven equate to the restrainer being taken out of the way? No one or nothing in heaven is being restrained from revealing the lawless one, nor is Satan able to restrain God to start with. God is not the one who will reveal the lawless one, though He will allow it to happen. What/Who ever is taken out of the way frees up the revealing of the lawless one. Since Satan can come and go from heaven, he is not restrained there, nor is he restraining himself there. Something is in his way, something must be "taken out of his way".

I agree Satan is tossed from heaven and he is none to happy about it, but why is he so unhappy if being in heaven has been restraining him?, and knowing his time is short, he is unhappy about not being retrained anymore?

And why would him having access to heaven be a determiner of him being restrained anyway, God would not be limited in His restraining abiltiy or control of the matter regardless of Satan being allowed access to heaven or not having access. Satan is only in heaven because he enjoys accusing the brethren, not because he misses the holiness of God. Satan is up there saying quiet dove and durban dude are terrible sinners and look how they messed up today..bla bla bla, he is up there reminding God that you and I are sinners.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

DurbanDude
Nov 17th 2008, 06:41 AM
How can Satan be the retrainer of himself still having access to heaven? .

I never said anything like this , this is nothing about restraining his access to heaven. All my posts imply he is MAINTAINING his access to heaven which is the opposite of what you are reading into my posts. I am surprised that you have failed to understand my posts so far and so much that you think that I am saying the opposite of whatI am actually saying. These posts have been about Satan keeping his place in heaven and restraining his been cast down to earth. He is delaying his manifestation on earth and not hastening it.



. Since Satan can come and go from heaven, he is not restrained there, nor is he restraining himself there. Something is in his way, something must be "taken out of his way".

I agree Satan is tossed from heaven and he is none to happy about it, but why is he so unhappy if being in heaven has been restraining him?, and knowing his time is short, he is unhappy about not being retrained anymore?
.

Actually I am beginning to understand where the miscommunication may have crept in , and it is my fault because I wrote the title of this thread. The very title of the thread is about Satan restraining himself, yet the more correct phrase is that Satan can be seen as restraining of THE REVEALING OF THE LAWLESS ONE , as per 2 Thess 2. He is thus not restraining himself in any way except to restrain his revealing on earth, because then his time will be short.

He is just restraining his own revealing, like any criminal would like to restrain or delay their revealing and final judgement he is restraining his revealing himself on earth, to delay his final judgment because he knows that his time is short. Maybe if the criminal is tracked down he would like to die with guns blazing but this is only a temporary satisfaction , until then the criminal would rather not be revealed.

Sure Satan will have the temporary satisfaction of a final great deception when he manifests himself more fully through the rule of the antichrist , but Rev 12 shows he is prepared to fight heavenly wars to AVOID been cast down.



And in my understanding of what is stated in Thess, How does forcibly tossing Satan out of heaven equate to the restrainer being taken out of the way?
.

If you forcibly remove someone it sounds very much like taking that person out of the way. It equates because the words used in each phrase have a similar meaning. Satan is delaying his revealing himself, and then is forcibly removed to earth where he then manifests his wrath (reveals himself , takes physical control of earth) because he knows his time is short.

I think we both have expressed our views here, I don't really have anything else to say on the subject, maybe you have more? Have answered your objections as best I can.

Back2Front
Nov 17th 2008, 06:58 AM
perhaps this discussion has greater implications than initially realized.

I believe that a miscommunication has happened for one single reason.

The participants have differing perspectives and understandings on what has happened, what will happen, and what is happening regarding Satan and his access to heaven, hell, and earth.

third hero
Nov 17th 2008, 08:14 AM
Pretty unreasonable plan that many buy and have bought. Even some Angels according to scripture.

But I wonder why God's letting him do it?

IF you think bout it, what God is doing is pure Genius. For instance, the Lord does not want to make the mistake of befriending the type that would eventuallly betray Him. As we have read in Revelation 21-22, the Lord's purpose is to live amongst men forever. Also, part of that plan is to have mankind become His Sons. And if the wrong people gain the powers of God's sons, then he could betray Him, and create a bigger disaster.

Therefore, even before He created this earth and mankind with it, God knew of the possibility of not only the will of the creations betraying Him, but also those of His personal assistants, the angels. Therefore, He prepared the means to expose both the heavenly hosts like Satan, and those whose hearts are likened to Satan, who would, if given the powers of God, would use them to challenge Him. That is this planet, this existence, this world. This is the testing ground, filled with everything necessary to show the hearts and minds of both man, and angel.

Furthermore, instead of just punishing Lucifer when he first betrayed God, God used his rebellious cherub to separate those who would follow Him from those would not. And instead of just riding the world of Satan, He has decided to rid the entire universe of all who would defy Him, in one shot.

This is what I believe is the reason why Satan even exists, and also the reason why I believe God allows him to continue to live. So when He goes forth to judge all mankind, He will do so only once, and when that time comes, no one can talk their way out of it. And so, whether they be angel or human, those wicked will perish altogether, once and for all, when the final day comes.

third hero
Nov 17th 2008, 08:31 AM
I don't believe that Satan is being allowed to restrain Christ. I believe that the only freedom for any, man/woman, from the bondage of Satan and his kingdom is Christ, but that is not a restraining of Christ in any way. Satan is a lion roaming to find who he might devour, but that is not restraining Christ, it is restraining or hindering men. And that Satan can only do as he is allowed is not Satan restraining Christ, but Christ restraining Satan.

I tihnk I want to take a bite into this question. It is neither Satan that is restraining Christ, or Christ restraining Satan, and I believe that Durbandude hinted to this in his OP.

Yes, the unveiling of the Man of sin is indeed restraining the Coming of the Lord, because God's sequence of events that He has outlined in the Gospels tells us so. According to Matthew 24:14-31, we see that Jesus does not return until after the tribulation of those days. The Tribulation can not happen unless the man of sin is revealed, for he is the abomination that causes desolation. And, the abomination of Desolation can not happen until after the Gospel is preached throughout the world, as a testimony to the nations.

Does this mean that Satan is restraining Lord Jesus? No. What it means is that God is actively restraining both the unveiling of the man of sin, and the subsequent return of the Lord. Why? Because the Gospel must first be preached throughout the nations.

And so, God's timeline, His sequence of events as He has preordained, this is what is holding back everything concerning the revealing of the Beast, and the subsequent return of the Lord.

In a sense, it is God's mercy that has held back the revealing of the beast. Why? because He wants all to come to repentence, and with this premise, He will continue until the nations have heard the Gospel.

So, in conclusion, it is neither Christ or Satan who is holding things back. It is God's will. When the time comes when God will will it, then it will happen, and not any time sooner. We have plenty of examples of Satan attempting to change the timeline by bringing about so many AntiChrist types. Nero and the emperors of Rome, Catholicism and those cursed by the thoughts of absolute power in the Dark Ages, Mohammad and Islam, and many more prototypes, (including Hitler, the pope who started the Crusades, and the many wicked kings who murdered in the name of Christianity) all of these are Satan's attempt change God's timeline and alter it so that he could "defeat" God. No matter what, the return of the Lord will not happen until the advent of the man od sin, and that will not happen until the Gospel has spread throughout the world. This is God's will, and no one can change it.

third hero
Nov 17th 2008, 08:48 AM
You know Quiet Dove and Durbandude,
it appears that the root of the disagreement is the implication of the restrainer being taken out of the way. Dd, I understand what you are saying. You are saying that Satan is the restrainer because he does not want ot "rock the boat". He realizes that when his access to heaven is cut off, and it will take a war in heaven to make that happen, then he will be at the point of no return. By just buying time for himself, he can try things that could possibly alter God's timeline, and as a result, saving his own hide.

At the same time, I understand the nature of your disagreement, QD. If what I am reading is correct, you are saying that Satan can not hold anything back that God preordained, and thus, he can not restrain anything. I agree with this premise too, but I also understand Dd's pov, and I agree with him as well.

In a sense, Satan is trying to find ways to defeat God and save his own skin. He knows that every moment he is in heaven, he is riding on borrowed time. When his seat as accuser is over, then he will be tossed to the earth again, and this time Hell, the final period of testing, and the Lake is his fate. And so, since he is comfortable being the accuser of the brethern, he does not want to lose that position. At the same time, Satan wants to defeat God. Therefore, Satan is not restraining God, but himself, trying to buy enough time for him to find that loophole and bring defeat to God.

I still stand by my posts, and that it is God's will that is the restrainer, and when God wills it, He wil remove the limiters and allow the Beast to be revealed, and the sequence of His Son's return will begin without hesitation.

This brings about a very interesting question. What the seven thunders say in Revelation 10. I wonder if they are connected to God removing the limiter, and thus proclaims to both heaven and earth that the time for the Lord's return is to commence? I guess we may not know until the seven thunders speak.

DurbanDude
Nov 17th 2008, 10:22 AM
I still stand by my posts, and that it is God's will that is the restrainer, and when God wills it, He wil remove the limiters and allow the Beast to be revealed, and the sequence of His Son's return will begin without hesitation.

This brings about a very interesting question. What the seven thunders say in Revelation 10. I wonder if they are connected to God removing the limiter, and thus proclaims to both heaven and earth that the time for the Lord's return is to commence? I guess we may not know until the seven thunders speak.

3H I definitely agree with you that God is in full control and everything happens according to his timing and sequence of events,and QD maybe I have not stressed this enough that I believe Satan cannot influence the sequence of events because God is in control.

However 3H I don't see how God's will can be the restrainer , God's will is continuously revealed through many events , yet 2 Thess 2:6 is referring to a specific withholder (restrainer) "he" and a specific revealing "in his time". The restrainer is a specific being.

2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Back2Front
Nov 17th 2008, 03:29 PM
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Notice that it also suggests that the He, the restrainer, might be revealed in his time.

Does this suggest that the he who is the restrainer, is being revealed according to his will?

or is the he who is the restrainer separate from the one who controls his time? That is to ask, is the his time person different from the he the restrainer person?

Or is the he the restrainer person, the same as the his time person but the his time is something he the restrainer has no control over. Meaning the He the restrainer person has no say in when his time of his revealing will be?

quiet dove
Nov 17th 2008, 07:21 PM
I never said anything like this , this is nothing about restraining his access to heaven. All my posts imply he is MAINTAINING his access to heaven which is the opposite of what you are reading into my posts. I am surprised that you have failed to understand my posts so far and so much that you think that I am saying the opposite of whatI am actually saying. These posts have been about Satan keeping his place in heaven and restraining his been cast down to earth. He is delaying his manifestation on earth and not hastening it.
I was not understanding you to say Satan was restrained in heaven, or from heaven, so I did not misunderstand your post. I however, apparently did not make myself understood. Let me try again. Why would Satan care if he maintained his ability to access heaven, if, maintaining that access meant restrainment from the earth and being able to wreck havoc on the earth, and also the restrainment of his man of lawlessness being revealed. I understood your post, I just did not word myself in such a way that you understood mine.




Actually I am beginning to understand where the miscommunication may have crept in , and it is my fault because I wrote the title of this thread. The very title of the thread is about Satan restraining himself, yet the more correct phrase is that Satan can be seen as restraining of THE REVEALING OF THE LAWLESS ONE , as per 2 Thess 2. He is thus not restraining himself in any way except to restrain his revealing on earth, because then his time will be short.Satan is going to get tossed out of heaven according to God's timing and the only thing restraining Satan from inflicting as much trouble as he can upon the earth, especially the children of God, is God.



He is just restraining his own revealing, like any criminal would like to restrain or delay their revealing and final judgement he is restraining his revealing himself on earth, to delay his final judgment because he knows that his time is short. Maybe if the criminal is tracked down he would like to die with guns blazing but this is only a temporary satisfaction , until then the criminal would rather not be revealed. Revealing the man of sin has no bearing on God's time frame, God being the one in control, what Satan does nor does not do has no bearing on God's timing. Satan has no control over any of it, he is just out to destroy as much as he can whether he has a day left or a million years. But he has no control over God's timing.



Sure Satan will have the temporary satisfaction of a final great deception when he manifests himself more fully through the rule of the antichrist , but Rev 12 shows he is prepared to fight heavenly wars to AVOID been cast down.Satan can fight all he wants, but since he is already defeated the outcome has been determined, and he has no control over the timing of any of it.



If you forcibly remove someone it sounds very much like taking that person out of the way. It equates because the words used in each phrase have a similar meaning. Satan is delaying his revealing himself, and then is forcibly removed to earth where he then manifests his wrath (reveals himself , takes physical control of earth) because he knows his time is short.It says his wrath has come because his time is short [/quote]

How can God's allowing Satan access to heaven possibly be restraining anything? That again gives Satan control and he has no control over anything, including when he gets tossed out of heaven. He can't delay it.

If understood your post, you are saying that Satan having access to heaven is Satan restraining himself from revealing his man of sin. But that would mean evil was restraining evil and it would also mean that Satan is working against himself. He would be restraining evil while he is actively trying as hard as he can every day to destroy men. How can anyone except God Almighty be restraining evil?

third hero
Nov 17th 2008, 10:27 PM
3H I definitely agree with you that God is in full control and everything happens according to his timing and sequence of events,and QD maybe I have not stressed this enough that I believe Satan cannot influence the sequence of events because God is in control.

However 3H I don't see how God's will can be the restrainer , God's will is continuously revealed through many events , yet 2 Thess 2:6 is referring to a specific withholder (restrainer) "he" and a specific revealing "in his time". The restrainer is a specific being.

2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

What is the point of al of this anyway? The unveiling of the man of sin, the return of the Lord, what is the purpose of all of these events?

So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. -Ezekiel 39:7

So you see, the one who is revealed when all is set and done is the Lord Himself. The whole point of Satan being exiled from heaven, the Great Tribulation, and His Son's return is to reveal Himself to all of the world, in a way that no one can doubt. Lord Jesus coming ot earth will erase any thought of there not being a god who is in total control.

Here's a NT quote for you.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8

You see, according to verse 7, the one who lets the forces of wickedness work will continue until he is taken out of the way. Well, we know that God can not be taken out of any way. However, the reason why wickedness is at work is because God's will allowed it. And so, the portion that is taken out of the way is God's will, because the timing that the Lord had preordained would have been completed, and thus there would no longer be any reason for God to continue to hold back the forces of the wicked ones.

Here's another way of putting it. Take Satan. He is in heaven right now, accusing the brethern. God allows him to be there, because it is God's will. In order for the Wicked One to be revealed, Satan has to be hurled from heaven. Also, in order for that to happen, many events have to happen first. Even as Satan is restraining himself, hoping that the moment of his exile never comes. Even so, he continues to work his iniquity on the earth, trying to figure out how to alter God's timeline. Even so, he can not, because God's will is as stone. It will not change. When the time comes, God will step out of the way of Michael, who will initiate the final war in heaven, which will result in the removal of Satan from heaven. God is not removed from the equation, but He will step out of the way, and the sequence for the Lord's return to earth will commence.

This is my point. The "he" in 2 Thessalonians 2:6 is the same "he in verse 7 that is allowing wickednesss to work. That "he" is the Will of God. It is not God all of his own, but rather the will of God is personnified. Much like wisdom in Proverbs is personnified, so in this case, God's will is personnified. Another reason why I say this is because the "he" is "allowing" wickedness to be at work. It can not be Satan, because Satan is the one working wickedness. Therefore, it has to be one who does not like wickedness, and thus, because it serves his purpose, allows it to work.

ross3421
Nov 19th 2008, 06:31 AM
Notice that it also suggests that the He, the restrainer, might be revealed in his time.

Does this suggest that the he who is the restrainer, is being revealed according to his will?

or is the he who is the restrainer separate from the one who controls his time? That is to ask, is the his time person different from the he the restrainer person?

Or is the he the restrainer person, the same as the his time person but the his time is something he the restrainer has no control over. Meaning the He the restrainer person has no say in when his time of his revealing will be?

Satan is kicked out of heaven and into the abyss prior to the 1260 days.

Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

At the end of the 5th trumpet which completes these 1260 days the king of the pit Satan follows them upon the earth. The morning star is the one which withholdeth and who opens the abyss in the 5th trumpet which allows Satan to be revealed.

360 + 360 + 360 + 180

Re 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Re 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit;

Re 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.



So we have the following............

2th 2:6 And now ye know what (God) withholdeth that he (Satan / Wicked) might be revealed in his time.

2th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (God) who now letteth will let, until he (Satan / Wicked) be taken out of the way.

And we see iniquity stop working when Satan / Wicked is destroyed

2th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

DurbanDude
Nov 19th 2008, 10:13 AM
But that would mean evil was restraining evil and it would also mean that Satan is working against himself. He would be restraining evil while he is actively trying as hard as he can every day to destroy men. How can anyone except God Almighty be restraining evil?


The bible says Satan will fight to stay in a certain place when he could cause woe by going to another place. Its not me saying it , its the bible.

Does Satan always try to cause as much evil on earth as he can, this is what you seem to be saying? The bible indicates the evil increases when Satan is cast down.

The bible says that Satan fights to remain in his place in heaven as accuser , and only when he loses his place in heaven does Satan come to earth with great wrath and cause woe to the inhabitants.

12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


and:
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

How much clearer and more bible-based can I get? This is straightforward.

DurbanDude
Nov 19th 2008, 11:07 AM
I was not understanding you to say Satan was restrained in heaven, or from heaven, so I did not misunderstand your post. I however, apparently did not make myself understood. Let me try again. Why would Satan care if he maintained his ability to access heaven, if, maintaining that access meant restrainment from the earth and being able to wreck havoc on the earth, and also the restrainment of his man of lawlessness being revealed. I understood your post, I just did not word myself in such a way that you understood mine.


Ok , I understand you now. I highlighted the sentence above to highlight the point I am making. It is the bible and not me that says that Satan cares so much about staying in heaven that Satan fights a war to stay there. The bible itself says he has great wrath when he is cast down because he knows that his time is short.

Believe me I didn't make up this doctrine , I read it in Rev 12. The bible makes the point , I never knew that Satan would want to fight to stay in heaven, you would think that he would want to be where his great wrath could be manifest and cause woe when he is cast to earth. You would think that he would want to be on earth immediately to cause that wrath. But the bible says it different and the bible gives the reason why Satan reacts in this way , "because he knows his time is short." So it makes sense that Satan would rather be in heaven accusing than on earth for a short period because the bible explains it.

quiet dove
Nov 19th 2008, 06:45 PM
Ok , I understand you now. I highlighted the sentence above to highlight the point I am making. It is the bible and not me that says that Satan cares so much about staying in heaven that Satan fights a war to stay there. The bible itself says he has great wrath when he is cast down because he knows that his time is short.

Believe me I didn't make up this doctrine , I read it in Rev 12. The bible makes the point , I never knew that Satan would want to fight to stay in heaven, you would think that he would want to be where his great wrath could be manifest and cause woe when he is cast to earth. You would think that he would want to be on earth immediately to cause that wrath. But the bible says it different and the bible gives the reason why Satan reacts in this way , "because he knows his time is short." So it makes sense that Satan would rather be in heaven accusing than on earth for a short period because the bible explains it.

I never assumed you were making anything up. :) And you have yourself worded more clearly here, I agree and thats what I said in that Satan is in heaven to accuse those of God, not because he particularly likes the righteousness there.

But that is still not convincing me that Satan is the Restainer of Satan in Thess. Satan restraining himself is like a house divided against itself.