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vinsight4u8
Nov 16th 2008, 01:29 PM
Is the same he spoken of at the start of chapter 9 - this was tied up in a prophecy of Jeremiah.

See Jeremiah 25:11

Here you will find the "he" that will desolate for Daniel 9:27.

vinsight4u8
Nov 16th 2008, 03:09 PM
Only a Babylonian king can fill the role of Daniel 9:27's "he".

An Iraqi ruler is to come and desolate the sanctuary.

David Taylor
Nov 16th 2008, 10:01 PM
Daniel 9:27 - "he"


(Jesus)

Daniel 9:24-27
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression(Jesus), and to make an end of sins(Jesus), and to make reconciliation for iniquity(Jesus), and to bring in everlasting righteousness(Jesus), and to seal up the vision and prophecy(Jesus), and to anoint the most Holy(Jesus). Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince(Jesus) shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off(Jesus), but not for himself(Jesus): and the people of the prince(Jesus) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he(Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he(Jesus) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he(Jesus) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ(Jesus)

Matthew 26:27 And when (Jesus) had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 10:8 Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He(Jesus) taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Clay Blucher
Nov 16th 2008, 10:32 PM
(Jesus)

Daniel 9:24-27
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression(Jesus), and to make an end of sins(Jesus), and to make reconciliation for iniquity(Jesus), and to bring in everlasting righteousness(Jesus), and to seal up the vision and prophecy(Jesus), and to anoint the most Holy(Jesus). Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince(Jesus) shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off(Jesus), but not for himself(Jesus): and the people of the prince(Jesus) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he(Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he(Jesus) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he(Jesus) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ(Jesus)

Matthew 26:27 And when (Jesus) had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 10:8 Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He(Jesus) taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Perhaps more strictly understood, it is the Messiah figure being mentioned within the prophecy against abominable Jews. It is a prediction that although the Messiah would come, Jerusalem would be an abomination. This was confirmed during Jesus' condemnation of the Temple in all the Gospels.

cwb
Nov 17th 2008, 01:41 AM
(Jesus)

Daniel 9:24-27
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression(Jesus), and to make an end of sins(Jesus), and to make reconciliation for iniquity(Jesus), and to bring in everlasting righteousness(Jesus), and to seal up the vision and prophecy(Jesus), and to anoint the most Holy(Jesus). Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince(Jesus) shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off(Jesus), but not for himself(Jesus): and the people of the prince(Jesus) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he(Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he(Jesus) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he(Jesus) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ(Jesus)

Matthew 26:27 And when (Jesus) had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 10:8 Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He(Jesus) taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


When did the people of Jesus destroy the city and sanctuary?

Clay Blucher
Nov 17th 2008, 01:56 AM
When did the people of Jesus destroy the city and sanctuary?

God used the Romans in 70 AD to destroy the city and the sanctuary. This was part of Jesus' vindication.

cwb
Nov 17th 2008, 02:34 AM
God used the Romans in 70 AD to destroy the city and the sanctuary. This was part of Jesus' vindication.


So you are saying the Roman soldiers were "the people of Jesus"?

Clay Blucher
Nov 17th 2008, 05:25 AM
So you are saying the Roman soldiers were "the people of Jesus"?

All in how you understand the genitive. Considering the original is truly "people" and not "followers", then the case can definately be made that even the Roman soldiers were indeed the people of the Prince... who destroyed the Temple.

third hero
Nov 17th 2008, 08:54 AM
So you are saying the Roman soldiers were "the people of Jesus"?
Good question. I think that before I comment on this topic, I want to see how this question is answered.

vinsight4u8
Nov 17th 2008, 10:27 AM
What verse in Daniel 9 reveals to the reader why Gabriel came to speak with Daniel?

David Taylor
Nov 17th 2008, 01:26 PM
"The people of the Prince"
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Matt 12:6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be our's. And they took him, and killed him

Were responsible for the "destruction the city and sanctuary"

Matt 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate

Matt 23:26 Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

third hero
Nov 17th 2008, 10:50 PM
"The people of the Prince"
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Matt 12:6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be our's. And they took him, and killed him

Were responsible for the "destruction the city and sanctuary"

Matt 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate

Matt 23:26 Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.


The thing that I have against what you are showing, David, is that the verse in question, Daniel 9:26, does not say that the peopole of the ruler is responsible for Jerusalem's destruction. It says that they actually destroy both it, and it's temple.

You have to reconcile this issue in order for me to accept it.

David Taylor
Nov 18th 2008, 12:51 PM
The thing that I have against what you are showing, David, is that the verse in question, Daniel 9:26, does not say that the peopole of the ruler is responsible for Jerusalem's destruction. It says that they actually destroy both it, and it's temple.

You have to reconcile this issue in order for me to accept it.

Had they accepted and not rejected Messiah the prince, Jerusalem wouldn't have been destroyed.

Because of their rejection and treatment of Him; God destroyed their city.

They were completely responsible for its destruction....and that is why Jesus told them that Jerusalem, Jerusalem; Desolate, Desolate.

Matthew 22:2 a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

cwb
Nov 18th 2008, 01:14 PM
Had they accepted and not rejected Messiah the prince, Jerusalem wouldn't have been destroyed.

Because of their rejection and treatment of Him; God destroyed their city.

They were completely responsible for its destruction....and that is why Jesus told them that Jerusalem, Jerusalem; Desolate, Desolate.

Matthew 22:2 a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

In quoting Mathew 22:2 here, are you saying this already happened? Are you saying that Rev 19 (where there is the marriage and the armies of
Christ follow Him) already happened? Were the Roman soldiers Christ's armies?

David Taylor
Nov 18th 2008, 05:25 PM
In quoting Mathew 22:2 here, are you saying this already happened? Are you saying that Rev 19 (where there is the marriage and the armies of
Christ follow Him) already happened? Were the Roman soldiers Christ's armies?

I am not saying Revelation 19 has already happened. That has nothing to do with this quoted verse.

Matthew 22.2 is showing that because Jerusalem and most of its people rejected the King's Son, he sent forth armies to destroy the city and those responsible for murdering His Son.

That occurred between 66-70 A.D.; when Jerusalem was destroyed as Jesus prophesied.

Revelation 19 has to do with the final return of Jesus from Heaven, and the final destruction of all of the wicked of the entire world....completely different event.


Jesus also made reference to the same destruction upon Jerusalem and those who would reject Him and their demise, when He said just a few verses earlier:

Matthew 21:33-22:7
21:33 There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet. 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."

Both tellings by Jesus express the same result that was fulfilled when Jerusalem and those who killed Christ were destroyed in 66-70 A.D.

cross+tie
Nov 19th 2008, 12:45 AM
I believe Jesus gave an account for Jerusalem's destruction in Luke..Ch..19..v.42-44....

third hero
Nov 19th 2008, 12:57 AM
David,
I am not knocking (invalidating in the Ebonic language) your point concerning the Jews being responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. My point is that the people pf the ruler in Daniel 9:26 is said to be the ones who ACTUALLY destroy the city and the temple. We know that it was not the Jews who destroyed the Temple and the city in 70AD. It was the Romans.

Now, with the fact that the romans destroyed the Temple and the city, if we were to fit this fact into your equation, it would seem as though you are indeed saying that the Roman centurian, Titus and the Romans soldiers that destroyed the city and the Temple, are indeed Jesus's people. If the "he" in verse 27 is Lord Jesus, then in order ot fit the grammar here, Jesus's people who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple are the Romans. I completely disagree with this asessment.

David Taylor
Nov 19th 2008, 02:18 AM
Matthew 21:33-22:7
They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men,

when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."



What people?
His armies?
What city?

ross3421
Nov 19th 2008, 05:48 AM
The "he" needs to be the same subject thoughout the verse.......which is the Messiah, the prince which shall come.

Da 9:27 And he (Messiah prince) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (Messiah prince) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (Messiah prince) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


This would only happen when the Messiah prince returns at his second coming.

David Taylor
Nov 19th 2008, 01:38 PM
The "he" needs to be the same subject thoughout the verse.......which is the Messiah, the prince which shall come.

Da 9:27 And he (Messiah prince) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (Messiah prince) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (Messiah prince) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


This would only happen when the Messiah prince returns at his second coming.

Not so if you understand this...

When the sacrifice and offering were stopped and made desolate in 70 A.D.; they have remained desolate, and will continue to remain desolate until the consumation of all things....forevermore Christ's sacrifice stands alone as the only true and valid sacrifice and offering.

No need to read a future event into a historical prophecy. All is satisified within the 70 week range of years as most naturally and most literally given.

threebigrocks
Nov 19th 2008, 02:07 PM
(Jesus)

Daniel 9:24-27
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression(Jesus), and to make an end of sins(Jesus), and to make reconciliation for iniquity(Jesus), and to bring in everlasting righteousness(Jesus), and to seal up the vision and prophecy(Jesus), and to anoint the most Holy(Jesus). Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince(Jesus) shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off(Jesus), but not for himself(Jesus): and the people of the prince(Jesus) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he(Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he(Jesus) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he(Jesus) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ(Jesus)

Matthew 26:27 And when (Jesus) had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 10:8 Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He(Jesus) taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Daniel 9:27 is speaking of the antichrist who will seat himself in the temple and declaire himself to be God. Yes, it is part of God's plan to have this happen, but the one who will sit there for the length of the covenant, be the author of that covenant, for a week of days, the final 7 or 7 years, is the antichrist as he establishes his deception.

In the middle of that week or covenant, the abomination is that the antichrist declaires himself to be God, and sigals the beginning of the Great Tribulation. In the middle of that week would make the Great Tribulation only 3 1/2 years. Times, time and half a time.

Matthew 24:14-16
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


The NASB cross references the mention of Daniel right back to Daniel 9:27. Here Christ Himself brings it to light. He tells us to understand, to put the pieces together.

mfowler12
Nov 19th 2008, 02:43 PM
I would like to see third hero's question answered by somebody with this interpretation of the Messiah's people destroying the city.

Was Babylon God's people? Or, did He use them to punish Israel for their sins?

I believe the main Antichrist is going to be a future man that declares himself god in a new Jewish temple.

third hero
Nov 19th 2008, 08:40 PM
What people?
His armies?
What city?

My question to you, David, involves your first response to the OP.


(Jesus)

Daniel 9:24-27
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression(Jesus), and to make an end of sins(Jesus), and to make reconciliation for iniquity(Jesus), and to bring in everlasting righteousness(Jesus), and to seal up the vision and prophecy(Jesus), and to anoint the most Holy(Jesus). Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince(Jesus) shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off(Jesus), but not for himself(Jesus): and the people of the prince(Jesus) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he(Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he(Jesus) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he(Jesus) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You see, according to your analysis, the "he" in Daniel 9:26 is none other than Lord Jesus. This would make that passage say that Jesus's people were to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple.

The Romans were the ones that fulfilled this prophecy. (Daniel 9:26). So, according to what you have written, you are saying that the Romans are the people of Lord Jesus. It is what you believe?

cwb
Nov 19th 2008, 09:25 PM
Not so if you understand this...

When the sacrifice and offering were stopped and made desolate in 70 A.D.; they have remained desolate, and will continue to remain desolate until the consumation of all things....forevermore Christ's sacrifice stands alone as the only true and valid sacrifice and offering.

No need to read a future event into a historical prophecy. All is satisified within the 70 week range of years as most naturally and most literally given.

Are you saying here that both the sacrifice being stopped and the abomination of desolation being set up occured in 70 AD. That is what is sounds like you are saying. Please correct me if I misunderstood you.

It seems to me that Daniel 12 says that there are 1290 days between the sacrifice ending and the abomination of desolation being set up.


Daniel 12:11


And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

cwb
Nov 19th 2008, 09:32 PM
Is the same he spoken of at the start of chapter 9 - this was tied up in a prophecy of Jeremiah.

See Jeremiah 25:11

Here you will find the "he" that will desolate for Daniel 9:27.


Hi vinsight4u,

Your OP here is confusing me a little. Jeremiah 25:11 says



And this whole land shall be a desolation, [and] an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.


When I read this, it seems to me it is referring to the time period when Israel was taken captive into Babylon for 70 years and not Daniel 9:27.

threebigrocks
Nov 19th 2008, 10:12 PM
That 70 years is part of the 490 years - but not part of that last 7. There are other instances that make up what the final 7 doesn't. Now there's something to dig into!

Clay Blucher
Nov 19th 2008, 11:01 PM
I would like to see third hero's question answered by somebody with this interpretation of the Messiah's people destroying the city.

Was Babylon God's people? Or, did He use them to punish Israel for their sins?

Can people who go against God actually be God's servant? :hmm:

Jer 27,6 Now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant...

Can God rise up a man/nation of his choosing to do his will, even if that individual/nation is acting in defiance of God overall? :hmm:

Isa 44,28 Who says of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure, even saying of Jerusalem, She shall be built; and of the temple, Your foundation shall be laid.
Isa 45,1 ¶ Thus says Yahweh to his anointed, to Cyrus...

This is actually why Jacob-Israel stands condemned at the end of Isaiah. They reject one of God's Messiahs to bring them out of exile. They reject the man that God anoints. Why do they reject him? Because he's a filthy idolater. They asked, how can an idolater be God's servant? Well that mystery is left up to God.

That's why it is likely to see in Dan 9:27 God using another foreign nation to accomplish His will, even if that nation is essentially against God.

David Taylor
Nov 20th 2008, 04:28 PM
My question to you, David, involves your first response to the OP.

[/i][/color]

You see, according to your analysis, the "he" in Daniel 9:26 is none other than Lord Jesus. This would make that passage say that Jesus's people were to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple.

The Romans were the ones that fulfilled this prophecy. (Daniel 9:26). So, according to what you have written, you are saying that the Romans are the people of Lord Jesus. It is what you believe?

'His people' and 'His armies', not as in being 'believers'; but rather
'His people' and 'His armies' as in in being 'the tool' He used for the destruction of the city and people who killed His Son.

Use this same consistent application to the passage from Matthew....

Matthew 21:33-22:7
They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men,

when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth HIS ARMIES, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."


The King used "His Armies" aka the roman armies, as 'the people' and His tool for destruction of the city.

Jags~Beach
Nov 21st 2008, 08:59 PM
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


What we have here is 3 different instances.


The Messiah
The people of the prince that shall come, romans back in 70 AD and prince January 20th 2009.
End of the war of Desolations 3 1/2 years when Christ comes to make an end of it.
Point is we know that it was the romans and not the Jews who destroyed the city and burned the temple to the ground to the point of focing every stone to be overturned so as to retrieve all the gold out of the temple...

The Jew's are clearly not the people being referenced too in Daniel 9:26.

Now verse 27 however I would concurr that it is entirely referring to Jesus being too.

Dan 9:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Dan&c=9&v=1&t=KJV#comm/27)And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,

and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Now how did Jesus make the sacrifice to cease, by being the ultimate sacrifice himself of what was being symbolized by the previous sacrifices of the Jews.

The city and the sanctuary made desolate because the Jews refused to acknowledge Jesus as their savior. They did not possess the love of the truth to recognize Jesus was their savior and that was the abomination that led to them being desolate of his spirit, it is the same love of the truth that fill's Christians with his spirit.

But unfortunately Jesus warned what would happen if we did not possess the love of the truth, that we too would be desolate and seeing Obama getting elected is living proof of this desolation that led to the Abomination taking over America and the world.

Jesus called us the Temple of God, and when we would rather have Idols than truth fill this spirit there in is the desolation and abomination Jesus and Paul warned us about in 2nd Thesolonians....

The consumation of the Jews back into the fold is on our near horizon. It is only when they do repent that the determined shall be poured on the desolate making war with them, and they won't repent until the desolate will make war against them.

America, its abominably desolate people, being led by Obama will go to war against Israel, once Israel launches a Nuclear strike to defend itself;
Armageddon is on our near horizon...

cross+tie
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:25 AM
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


What we have here is 3 different instances.


The Messiah
The people of the prince that shall come, romans back in 70 AD and prince January 20th 2009.
End of the war of Desolations 3 1/2 years when Christ comes to make an end of it.
Point is we know that it was the romans and not the Jews who destroyed the city and burned the temple to the ground to the point of focing every stone to be overturned so as to retrieve all the gold out of the temple...

The Jew's are clearly not the people being referenced too in Daniel 9:26.

Now verse 27 however I would concurr that it is entirely referring to Jesus being too.

Dan 9:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Dan&c=9&v=1&t=KJV#comm/27)And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,

and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Now how did Jesus make the sacrifice to cease, by being the ultimate sacrifice himself of what was being symbolized by the previous sacrifices of the Jews.

The city and the sanctuary made desolate because the Jews refused to acknowledge Jesus as their savior. They did not possess the love of the truth to recognize Jesus was their savior and that was the abomination that led to them being desolate of his spirit, it is the same love of the truth that fill's Christians with his spirit.

But unfortunately Jesus warned what would happen if we did not possess the love of the truth, that we too would be desolate and seeing Obama getting elected is living proof of this desolation that led to the Abomination taking over America and the world.

Jesus called us the Temple of God, and when we would rather have Idols than truth fill this spirit there in is the desolation and abomination Jesus and Paul warned us about in 2nd Thesolonians....

The consumation of the Jews back into the fold is on our near horizon. It is only when they do repent that the determined shall be poured on the desolate making war with them, and they won't repent until the desolate will make war against them.

America, its abominably desolate people, being led by Obama will go to war against Israel, once Israel launches a Nuclear strike to defend itself;
Armageddon is on our near horizon...



so what covenant was confirmed for seven years by the Lord Jesus Christ....

Marc B
Nov 22nd 2008, 02:19 AM
'His people' and 'His armies', not as in being 'believers'; but rather
'His people' and 'His armies' as in in being 'the tool' He used for the destruction of the city and people who killed His Son.

Use this same consistent application to the passage from Matthew....

Matthew 21:33-22:7
They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men,

when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth HIS ARMIES, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."


The King used "His Armies" aka the roman armies, as 'the people' and His tool for destruction of the city.

Indeed, God does use nations to punish other nations.

vinsight4u8
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:12 PM
Hi vinsight4u,

Your OP here is confusing me a little. Jeremiah 25:11 says



When I read this, it seems to me it is referring to the time period when Israel was taken captive into Babylon for 70 years and not Daniel 9:27.

It does involve Israel being held captive, but there is more to it - for the king that holds them captive for that length of time must be a Babylonian. Since the time of captivity lasted only about 66.5 years under Babylonian kings - and Cyrus and Darius held Israel the rest of the 70 years,,,,that leaves Jeremiah's 25:11-13 prophecy as yet to get done with. Daniel had read this prophecy and knowing that the Babylonian kings weren't in power over them any longer - began to supplicate as to when the years come that a Babylonian king will complete the rest of their time that was foretold by Jeremiah - as to Israel must serve them. Daniel began to supplicate and pray over this Jeremiah he must desolate Jerusalem prophecy. Gabriel comes and tells Daniel that it was due to his supplications that he is sent. That means what Gabriel eventually, in this time of coming, reveals to Daniel must connect up with the Jeremiah prophecy.

Daniel 9
Daniel reads what Jeremiah wrote about the Babylonian king.
Daniel supplicates over the time of that he in the prophecy.
Gabriel comes to confused Daniel and tells him to understand the matter.

vinsight4u8
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:33 PM
Reigns of the kings of Babylon

From Holman Bible Dictionary
pages 142-143

"Nebuchadnezzar II (605 -562 B.C.)
"His successors "his son Awel-marduk (561-560 B.C.)"
"Neriglissar (560 -558 B.C)"
Labashi-Marduk (557 B.C.), murdered as a mere child"
Nabonidus (556-539 B.C.) joint under Belshazzar at the end
"In 539 B.C., The Persian Cyrus II (the Great) entered Babylon
without a fight. Thus ended Babylon's dominant role in Near
Eastern politics."



See how the 70 years of Jer. 25 are not over yet?
Jeremiah's prophecy began with the days of Nebuchadnezzar and then that should have taken us clear to 536 B.C. under all Babylonian kings - if this prophecy truly did end already.
However- Israel serving Babylonian time became Persian time in 539 B.C.,,,,leaving Babylon's time of ruling the nations as shoved way off into the future - the time of the end.

serve the king of Babylon
70 years
- then God will punish that king
and the land of Chaldea

But when the end of Isreal serving time came in the days of Daniel and Jeremiah - it was the Persians in power over them - not a Babylonian king.
God didn't have a Babylonian king availabe to take down - for the Perisans had already taken down the last of the Babylonian kings years ago. Daniel knew that at the end of a time of 70 years God will take down a Babylonian king. Gabriel showed him that the Jeremiah prophecy comes at the end of a prophecy as to seventy weeks.

Jeremiah wrote about a he that deoslates.
Daniel read the prophecy.
Daniel supplicated as to akkk- How will the Babylonian kings complete that prophecy as the Medes rule over Israel now?

Gabriel comes due to Daniel's supplications.
The matter must be understood.

70 weeks are determined upon thy people
to finish

finish what?
The time of the Babylonian kings desolation of the holy sanctuary place.

Notice how the last week is set in its own determined section of time.
"tll the consummation"
"that determined"

cwb
Nov 24th 2008, 07:08 AM
Reigns of the kings of Babylon

From Holman Bible Dictionary
pages 142-143

"Nebuchadnezzar II (605 -562 B.C.)
"His successors "his son Awel-marduk (561-560 B.C.)"
"Neriglissar (560 -558 B.C)"
Labashi-Marduk (557 B.C.), murdered as a mere child"
Nabonidus (556-539 B.C.) joint under Belshazzar at the end
"In 539 B.C., The Persian Cyrus II (the Great) entered Babylon
without a fight. Thus ended Babylon's dominant role in Near
Eastern politics."



See how the 70 years of Jer. 25 are not over yet?
Jeremiah's prophecy began with the days of Nebuchadnezzar and then that should have taken us clear to 536 B.C. under all Babylonian kings - if this prophecy truly did end already.
However- Israel serving Babylonian time became Persian time in 539 B.C.,,,,leaving Babylon's time of ruling the nations as shoved way off into the future - the time of the end.

serve the king of Babylon
70 years
- then God will punish that king
and the land of Chaldea

But when the end of Isreal serving time came in the days of Daniel and Jeremiah - it was the Persians in power over them - not a Babylonian king.
God didn't have a Babylonian king availabe to take down - for the Perisans had already taken down the last of the Babylonian kings years ago. Daniel knew that at the end of a time of 70 years God will take down a Babylonian king. Gabriel showed him that the Jeremiah prophecy comes at the end of a prophecy as to seventy weeks.

Jeremiah wrote about a he that deoslates.
Daniel read the prophecy.
Daniel supplicated as to akkk- How will the Babylonian kings complete that prophecy as the Medes rule over Israel now?

Gabriel comes due to Daniel's supplications.
The matter must be understood.

70 weeks are determined upon thy people
to finish

finish what?
The time of the Babylonian kings desolation of the holy sanctuary place.

Notice how the last week is set in its own determined section of time.
"tll the consummation"
"that determined"

That is really interesting information. Thanks for sharing that. I had not seen it before. It also fits with the reign of the anti-christ being 42 months.

vinsight4u8
Nov 24th 2008, 07:23 AM
Hi cwb
Glad you are looking at this.

Here's another interesting one.
The New Testament speaks of a prophecy that is a "work a work" message that wouldn't be believed.

Acts 13:41
"Behold, ye despisers...for I work a work in your days.."
V40
"...lest that come upon you..."

So we are being led to understand that some prophet gave once a "work a work" prophecy.
Paul sees this as a prophecy that had not happened.
So now I go to Habakkuk chapter 1.
V5
"Behold ye...for [I] will work a work...ye will not believe...."
This is a prophecy via a vision that was shown to Habakkuk. After gettting this chapter done with -the prophet heads in chapter 2 to sit on the tower and warn the people of how the Chaldeans are coming - but God told him to write it down.
"make [it] plain"
"Write the vision"

"at the end it shall speak"

I see this as again being a place in the Bible that reveals the man of sin nation is Iraq.
Babylon - the land of the Chaldeans

Habakkuk told in chapter 1 that they will come as a bitter and hasty nation.
In chapter 2 - he gives this wicked man leader the names of the fourth seal Revelation rider.

[is] as death
his desire as hell

gathers the nations


This is another section of prophecy that shows the church is here for the time of the man of sin - for Paul told the people - lest that come upon them.