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SilentThinker
Nov 16th 2008, 01:34 PM
Hi to all.

This is my first time I am posting in this forum.

Is piracy good or bad in the Christian context?

Thanks for any replies.

looking4jesus
Nov 16th 2008, 03:13 PM
Hi to all.

This is my first time I am posting in this forum.

Is piracy good or bad in the Christian context?

Thanks for any replies.

No idea what your asking. Please ask your question in detail.
So far your just asking is it ok to be a priate!
God Bless
Randy

marline
Nov 16th 2008, 03:23 PM
Hi SL, Welcome to the board. I think I know what you mean, i.e. copy cd's, dvd's ect. In my country it is considered as theft, and theft is a sin. So yes, then it is bad.
Bless you
M

Ekeak
Nov 16th 2008, 10:11 PM
Bad. Piracy is an absolute wrong. ;)

Revinius
Nov 16th 2008, 10:27 PM
Bad. Piracy is an absolute wrong. ;)

It is stealing. Thus wrong. ;)

SilentThinker
Nov 17th 2008, 11:06 AM
Sorry for not telling specifically.

I mean like pirated video games or computer games?

Revinius
Nov 17th 2008, 11:38 AM
Sorry for not telling specifically.

I mean like pirated video games or computer games?

Piracy of any kind, be it on the raging sea's (yarrrr!) or in the comfort of your own PC, is theft and people who do it are evil (as are we all due to our sin).

Ichiban
Nov 18th 2008, 07:41 AM
Piracy of any kind, be it on the raging sea's (yarrrr!) or in the comfort of your own PC, is theft and people who do it are evil (as are we all due to our sin).

I approve of the old school pirate reference :lol:

RedBird777
Nov 19th 2008, 11:51 PM
Higher law --> Thou shalt not steal

Lower law --> http://www.lawteacher.net/PDF/TA%201968.pdf

Basically, God and the government say "no"

HisLeast
Nov 20th 2008, 12:43 AM
Sorry for not telling specifically.

I mean like pirated video games or computer games?

Game developers BUST THEIR HUMPS to bring those things to market. Game Development is actually one of the quickest ways to burn out in the Information Technology world. Not only do they have to be top top TOP level programmers, but they often have to have specialized mathematics expertise. They deal with rude and acidic fan bases that blame developers for the design decisions made by project managers. They put their lives on hold and churn out 80 hour weeks for extended periods of time to push a title out the door, and once it goes... then its patch time.... and once thats done... then its on to the next title. Its an utterly thankless job.

You might as well walk into their house and steal the food right off their wife and childrens' plate.

Ekeak
Nov 23rd 2008, 11:22 PM
Let's examine pirates; they are people who rob and then steal. Sure, perhaps Christ wouldn't listen to copyrighted material. But is "listening to" and "downloading" music actually anything outside of an ethical issue projected by the music industry via the U.S. Government. What is "use"? Does listening to pirated music actually define "use"? Is buying a stolen T.V. stealing? Who would Jesus judge for pirating music, the person or people who put the music on the network, or the people who download it?
I think "Judge not and you won't be judged" is very appropriate here.

HisLeast
Nov 23rd 2008, 11:26 PM
Is buying a stolen T.V. stealing? [
If you know its stolen, absolutely.


Who would Jesus judge for pirating music, the person or people who put the music on the network, or the people who download it?
Both. Lets cut to the chase here. Who doesn't know they're doing something wrong by downloading something they'd otherwise have to walk into the store to buy?


I think "Judge not and you won't be judged" is very appropriate here.
How so?

Ekeak
Nov 23rd 2008, 11:50 PM
Ok you got me there.

Revinius
Nov 24th 2008, 04:15 AM
Ok you got me there.

Yeah mate. Can't rationalise something that is quite clearly black and white. It can't be 'dialogued away'. When you buy a cd, you buy the right to play that cd for 'personal use'. Personal use clearly does not mean making copies for friends to play in their houses nor putting it up on a peer to peer torrent.

DumaKey1212
Feb 4th 2009, 04:01 AM
How about buying blank DVD's from Best Buy and using a Netflix service to copy DVD files to computer and then burn them to blank discs?

Athanasius
Feb 4th 2009, 04:59 AM
Burning rented DVD's... Think it would be considered stealing by many:hmm:

Scubadude
Feb 6th 2009, 09:51 PM
Hi to all.

This is my first time I am posting in this forum.

Is piracy good or bad in the Christian context?

Thanks for any replies.

Arrrrrg, me buck-o! I be thinking it is a far cry from being a scalawag. :)

Reynolds357
Feb 6th 2009, 10:19 PM
Hi to all.

This is my first time I am posting in this forum.

Is piracy good or bad in the Christian context?

Thanks for any replies.

Is stealing good or bad? Seems like an easy one to me.

Pre
Feb 16th 2009, 04:30 AM
How about buying blank DVD's from Best Buy and using a Netflix service to copy DVD files to computer and then burn them to blank discs?

That's theft, too.

jonahthebold
Feb 19th 2009, 01:04 AM
I'm almost out of college, but I got a really nice contract job a couple years ago doing, well, game programming. It's one of those funny things which results from living in a Mainstream Media dominated world... the fact that pretty much everyone here assumes without question that Filesharing (piracy) is theft. I find this funny because if you talk to people "in the industry", such as musicians or game programmers/designers like me, the predominant view is that filesharing is not necesarily theft. Everyone who is certain that filesharing = theft, you are likely victims of perception manipulation orchestrated by the corrupt billionares who run the Distribution aspect of media.

I agree that filesharing can be theft. For example, if you download a bunch of games and movies and music because you don't feel like paying for them, and then use them all the time, yeah, that's not right. But wait, is it theft? If you steal a loaf of bread from a baker, the result is that you have the loaf, and the baker doesn't. That is theft. Here's the problem... When you download and share media, the Media Distribution company still has the same amount of media. Same for the artist. You haven't deprived them of anything.

Here's how to do filesharing right:

1: Don't Download Movies. Hollywood has been pretty clear about the fact that they don't like it.

2: Don't download big title games. If it's a game you know is amazing, and you really really want it, show your apreciation to the people who made the game by dishing out the 50 or 60 bucks for it. Games are incresingly branching out and becoming more artistic and creative, and companies should be rewarded for taking a chance on classier titles.
You should also start seriously looking into smaller independant game development companies. They are really starting to flourish and take off and are making great stuff. And the best part: most of them cost about twenty bucks, and a lot of these companies will openly encourage you to put it on five or ten of your friends' computers and play it together. These companies know what most people in the industry know: for smaller companies, piracy increases sales by generating buzz.

3: Music. If you're looking for Top 40 musicians: pony up the cash. But do you really want to be putting your dollars into funding that kind of sleaze and corruption? Find small bands, local acts, or even mid-level bands. Download a bunch of random music you've never heard of. Listen to all of it, what you don't like, delete. But the stuff that you enjoy? Send the artist an email asking them if you can send them Ten bucks, because you really liked their music. They'll be overjoyed and probably give you a bunch of free CDs, and it's not theft, as long as the artist doesn't think it is. Many artists are already putting their music out there through "illegal" channels, because they too know that they make more money when people trade music. Just don't be dishonnest about it.

Revinius
Feb 19th 2009, 02:44 AM
I think downloading anything and listening/viewing it without prior permission is theft. If you email the artist/developer and ask them for permission to listen/view the product and they say yes then that is fine, if not then we are bound not to. If you download the product to 'try it out' before asking permission then you are actually stealing what is the licenced copyright of someone else, your intent matters little.

technotask
Feb 20th 2009, 09:05 AM
Piracy is very wrong... Its against rules and moral ethics. Even in christian context its wrong...

*Hope*
Mar 15th 2009, 01:36 PM
I'm almost out of college, but I got a really nice contract job a couple years ago doing, well, game programming. It's one of those funny things which results from living in a Mainstream Media dominated world... the fact that pretty much everyone here assumes without question that Filesharing (piracy) is theft. I find this funny because if you talk to people "in the industry", such as musicians or game programmers/designers like me, the predominant view is that filesharing is not necesarily theft. Everyone who is certain that filesharing = theft, you are likely victims of perception manipulation orchestrated by the corrupt billionares who run the Distribution aspect of media. This is absolutely not true. People who make a living off of their creativity (whether it’s music, art, games, etc) are very upset about piracy, and have every reason to be. THEY own the rights to what they created. When people pirate these things, they are stealing. Period. There are not only laws to prevent this, but technology has been developed to aid in the prevention of piracy, largely at the insistence of those “in the industry”. It sounds like you have been the victim of persuasion by those who would rather steal than pay for something.


I agree that filesharing can be theft. For example, if you download a bunch of games and movies and music because you don't feel like paying for them, and then use them all the time, yeah, that's not right. But wait, is it theft? If you steal a loaf of bread from a baker, the result is that you have the loaf, and the baker doesn't. That is theft. Here's the problem... When you download and share media, the Media Distribution company still has the same amount of media. Same for the artist. You haven't deprived them of anything. Wrong again. Theft isn’t determined by how deprived you leave the victim. If you steal from a billionaire, it’s still theft. You’re justifying sin. It’s wrong. It doesn’t matter if it amounts to $0.01. If you take something that doesn’t belong to you without permission, it’s theft.


Here's how to do filesharing right:

1: Don't Download Movies. Hollywood has been pretty clear about the fact that they don't like it.

2: Don't download big title games. If it's a game you know is amazing, and you really really want it, show your apreciation to the people who made the game by dishing out the 50 or 60 bucks for it. Games are incresingly branching out and becoming more artistic and creative, and companies should be rewarded for taking a chance on classier titles.
You should also start seriously looking into smaller independant game development companies. They are really starting to flourish and take off and are making great stuff. And the best part: most of them cost about twenty bucks, and a lot of these companies will openly encourage you to put it on five or ten of your friends' computers and play it together. These companies know what most people in the industry know: for smaller companies, piracy increases sales by generating buzz.

3: Music. If you're looking for Top 40 musicians: pony up the cash. But do you really want to be putting your dollars into funding that kind of sleaze and corruption? Find small bands, local acts, or even mid-level bands. Download a bunch of random music you've never heard of. Listen to all of it, what you don't like, delete. But the stuff that you enjoy? Send the artist an email asking them if you can send them Ten bucks, because you really liked their music. They'll be overjoyed and probably give you a bunch of free CDs, and it's not theft, as long as the artist doesn't think it is. Many artists are already putting their music out there through "illegal" channels, because they too know that they make more money when people trade music. Just don't be dishonnest about it. This is all useless advice also. There is no “right way to steal” (which is basically what you’re advocating). The simple truth is: if you want something, pay for it. Purchase it legally. Period.

apothanein kerdos
Mar 16th 2009, 09:30 AM
This is absolutely not true. People who make a living off of their creativity (whether it’s music, art, games, etc) are very upset about piracy, and have every reason to be. THEY own the rights to what they created. When people pirate these things, they are stealing. Period. There are not only laws to prevent this, but technology has been developed to aid in the prevention of piracy, largely at the insistence of those “in the industry”. It sounds like you have been the victim of persuasion by those who would rather steal than pay for something.

Wrong again. Theft isn’t determined by how deprived you leave the victim. If you steal from a billionaire, it’s still theft. You’re justifying sin. It’s wrong. It doesn’t matter if it amounts to $0.01. If you take something that doesn’t belong to you without permission, it’s theft.

This is all useless advice also. There is no “right way to steal” (which is basically what you’re advocating). The simple truth is: if you want something, pay for it. Purchase it legally. Period.


Such a stoic. ;)

But she's right. As Christians we're called to do the ethical thing. Thus, even if downloading were legal, would it still be ethical?

Regardless, it is illegal, thus making a violation of it contrary to Biblical teachings. Theft is theft.

Lordistruth
Mar 16th 2009, 11:54 PM
Is it wrong?
Did Christians in the 80's and early 90's call it a sin to make a copy of a tape and give it to someone?
Some people argue that it was different than the filesharing done today because the mentality behind it was "hey this music really moved me, take a copy, I hope it does the same for you!" But that is precisley the same mentality behind file sharing. The key word is SHARING. It's not like these people are stealing music from somone, they are just making a copy. They don't then take that copy and sell it to someone else. They just put it out there and say "Hey if you want to listen to this, you can have a copy of mine." Let's say that in the 80's, someone said "Come on over to my house anytime you want a copy of the music I have, I'd be more than happy to share it with you!" That's the same thing as file sharing online today.

Athanasius
Mar 17th 2009, 12:20 AM
Is it wrong?
Did Christians in the 80's and early 90's call it a sin to make a copy of a tape and give it to someone? Some people argue that it was different than the filesharing done today because the mentality behind it was "hey this music really moved me, take a copy, I hope it does the same for you!" But that is precisley the same mentality behind file sharing. The key word is SHARING. It's not like these people are stealing music from somone, they are just making a copy. They don't then take that copy and sell it to someone else. They just put it out there and say "Hey if you want to listen to this, you can have a copy of mine." Let's say that in the 80's, someone said "Come on over to my house anytime you want a copy of the music I have, I'd be more than happy to share it with you!" That's the same thing as file sharing online today.

It was a sin (we're considering it theivering, after all) back in the 80's and early 90's. I don't understand what appealing to 'back then' achieves. You want to call it sharing but all you've done is taken a lesson from Orwell - double speak - it's still piracy. Legally I'm allowed to make a backup copy of the material I've purchased, but I am not allowed to then distribute those copies. I may lend you a cassette or CD, however, lending is not copying.

Face it, they're stealing music. Saying it's not stealing because they didn't sell the copy they made seems absurd to me.

JamesV
Apr 5th 2009, 06:45 PM
Lol. Can we be a little nicer with sharing our opinions?
If what you have to say is opposing to someone else just say it nicely :P

Definition of Stealing:To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

Anything that falls under that category is generally a sin.

You can't justify what isn't right. It seems a bit black and white.
Taking something that doesn't belong to you is wrong.
If someone else gives you something they took themselves is still wrong.

Just because someone doesn't care if they lost 1 sale doesn't make it right. They deserve the benefits of the effort they put into something.

That's my opinion anyway.

RedBird777
Apr 5th 2009, 09:35 PM
Uuuuuhhh...did I miss something? This thread was created LONG ago...anywho, let me clarify this filesharing.

Filesharing can be FULLY LEGAL AND NOT SINFUL through the open source community. There are free things on the internet (believe it or not) that actually work VERY well and in some cases, better than the commercial versions. Filesharing is NOT necessarily fully evil...as long as the stuff is free. If the stuff you are downloading originally was meant for profit, the it is wrong (i.e. games, music, movies, etc.)

Another thing we have to look into is Copyright Laws. They are so messed up and full of lawyer jibber-jabber that the average American would be very confused as to what actually is legal or not. Sure, you have the basics of don't steal, but there are MANY different types of Copyright, MANY different ways that the Copyright expires, and when certain Copyrights become public. The copyright laws can give the RIAA excuses to sue the living daylights out of the innocent, so it's a very backwards and greedy system.

*Hope*
Apr 5th 2009, 09:43 PM
Uuuuuhhh...did I miss something? This thread was created LONG ago...anywho, let me clarify this filesharing.

Filesharing can be FULLY LEGAL AND NOT SINFUL through the open source community. There are free things on the internet (believe it or not) that actually work VERY well and in some cases, better than the commercial versions. Filesharing is NOT necessarily fully evil...as long as the stuff is free. If the stuff you are downloading originally was meant for profit, the it is wrong (i.e. games, music, movies, etc.)

Hence the point of it being theft (this topic). We're talking about "sharing" music, for instance, that hasn't been purchased. I don't know of ANY artist who has created their work and doesn't intend on making a profit.


Another thing we have to look into is Copyright Laws. They are so messed up and full of lawyer jibber-jabber that the average American would be very confused as to what actually is legal or not. Sure, you have the basics of don't steal, but there are MANY different types of Copyright, MANY different ways that the Copyright expires, and when certain Copyrights become public. The copyright laws can give the RIAA excuses to sue the living daylights out of the innocent, so it's a very backwards and greedy system.Just because "the system" has some flaws doesn't mean we can reject it and/or disobey it. I know many lawyers, one of them is actually in entertainment law, these are there to protect artists and their rights. While some people may abuse the system, it doesn't mean the entire thing should be ignored. Also, Copyright Laws are not that hard to understand. It's been explained pretty well in this topic already.

RedBird777
Apr 5th 2009, 10:19 PM
Hence the point of it being theft (this topic). We're talking about "sharing" music, for instance, that hasn't been purchased. I don't know of ANY artist who has created their work and doesn't intend on making a profit.
A prime example is the open-source community. Right now, I'm using an operating system called Ubuntu. It is completely free, and is Linux based. It has many different features, and is quite powerful.
Wikipedia Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
Also, what web browser are you using? If it is by Mozilla (i.e. Firefox), that is a free software. You see, open source is real and is FREE. There is also something called "Open Office" - that is a completely free computer program VERY similar to Microsoft Office. However, Open Office is created by SUN Microsystems ( http://www.sun.com/ ), and is created fully out of Java (a computer language). Also, since I am taking a computer programming class, I need something called an IDE (where you type in code). The IDE that I have is Code::Blocks, which is a completely free IDE with a free compiler. There is also Dev-C++, which most people I know use.
So basically, free stuff is out there. You just have to know about it or look for it.


Just because "the system" has some flaws doesn't mean we can reject it and/or disobey it. I know many lawyers, one of them is actually in entertainment law, these are there to protect artists and their rights. While some people may abuse the system, it doesn't mean the entire thing should be ignored. Also, Copyright Laws are not that hard to understand. It's been explained pretty well in this topic already.
Here's all the copyright laws: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/
It's long, tedious, and pretty technical. If you can understand the whole thing, that would be outstanding for me to know. If there is light on the subject matter of copyright, that would be great for me. After reading through this whole thread, I don't think copyright has been explained at all. All that has been explained is stealing=bad, which is completely true and makes sense.
I don't mean to be bashing anybody, but the laws can get a little ridiculous. They may be there to protect the artist's right, but they are actually there more-so for the record companies.

Athanasius
Apr 5th 2009, 10:28 PM
A prime example is the open-source community. Right now, I'm using an operating system called Ubuntu. It is completely free, and is Linux based. It has many different features, and is quite powerful.
Wikipedia Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
Also, what web browser are you using? If it is by Mozilla (i.e. Firefox), that is a free software. You see, open source is real and is FREE. There is also something called "Open Office" - that is a completely free computer program VERY similar to Microsoft Office. However, Open Office is created by SUN Microsystems ( http://www.sun.com/ ), and is created fully out of Java (a computer language). Also, since I am taking a computer programming class, I need something called an IDE (where you type in code). The IDE that I have is Code::Blocks, which is a completely free IDE with a free compiler. There is also Dev-C++, which most people I know use.
So basically, free stuff is out there. You just have to know about it or look for it.


Okay, what *Hope* is saying is that this sort of open-source software is not what we're talking about (hence the mention of music).

RedBird777
Apr 6th 2009, 06:43 AM
Okay, what *Hope* is saying is that this sort of open-source software is not what we're talking about (hence the mention of music).
Yes...but she also doubted that there actually was free stuff out there. And the point I was trying to make before is that P2P software isn't necessarily evil - it is only a tool that can potentially (and usually) is used for evil.

You know...come to re-read the thread, I may have missed (or mis-read) something, so I think I'll stay out of it.
My bad.

Lordistruth
Apr 8th 2009, 06:05 PM
It was a sin (we're considering it theivering, after all) back in the 80's and early 90's. I don't understand what appealing to 'back then' achieves. You want to call it sharing but all you've done is taken a lesson from Orwell - double speak - it's still piracy. Legally I'm allowed to make a backup copy of the material I've purchased, but I am not allowed to then distribute those copies. I may lend you a cassette or CD, however, lending is not copying.

Face it, they're stealing music. Saying it's not stealing because they didn't sell the copy they made seems absurd to me.

On more question on this. Let's say I buy a christian magazine, read an amazing article that really touched me, then I make a photocopy of the article and give it to friends and family. Is that a sin???

*Hope*
Apr 9th 2009, 12:50 AM
Yes...but she also doubted that there actually was free stuff out there.

Yes, I was referring to music not software downloads, etc.

*Hope*
Apr 9th 2009, 12:54 AM
On more question on this. Let's say I buy a christian magazine, read an amazing article that really touched me, then I make a photocopy of the article and give it to friends and family. Is that a sin???

You can either give your copy away or purchase another copy for your friend. You cannot take the liberty of making copies of something. When you make an unauthorized copy you are robbing them of the profit they could make from selling another magazine.

As a good rule of thumb, whenever you purchase something, you own the rights to THAT item and THAT copy of it only. You can keep it for yourself or give it away. However, you do NOT have the right to make copies of that item and give away or sell the copies to others.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 9th 2009, 01:08 AM
On more question on this. Let's say I buy a christian magazine, read an amazing article that really touched me, then I make a photocopy of the article and give it to friends and family. Is that a sin???


Printed copyright law works differently than musical copyright law. If it is printed, you have to give proper citation of the article. Likewise, you can't mass produce it - that is, produce it and just randomly hand it out for people's enjoyment. If you're using it for educational reasons, then some magazines allow mass reprintings, so long as a citation is given...and this doesn't go for the whole magazine. In all cases, reprinting a magazine without permission is illegal.

Revinius
Apr 9th 2009, 04:00 AM
On more question on this. Let's say I buy a christian magazine, read an amazing article that really touched me, then I make a photocopy of the article and give it to friends and family. Is that a sin???

Some publications have a disclaimer allowing you to photocopy X pages for teaching uses. Alternatively, with magazines, you can usually find a digital copy available that can often be free.

*Hope*
Apr 11th 2009, 06:20 PM
Some publications have a disclaimer allowing you to photocopy X pages for teaching uses. Alternatively, with magazines, you can usually find a digital copy available that can often be free.

This is a good point, many magazines have articles available even online.

Lordistruth
Apr 13th 2009, 08:12 PM
True but often you can listen to an entire CD for free on their website. Or you can listen to the music on the Radio. Would it be wrong to record a song off of the radio?

RedBird777
Apr 14th 2009, 06:24 AM
True but often you can listen to an entire CD for free on their website. Or you can listen to the music on the Radio. Would it be wrong to record a song off of the radio?
Even though the radio may sound ok, the sound quality off the radio is pretty poor. Even if you did copy it, who would buy it? It would be a mix-tape. I don't know of any album that has all of its contents on the radio - which is another thing. Nobody wants part of an album on a tape or a CD. Since you can not make a profit, it would probably be legal.

Lordistruth
Apr 14th 2009, 03:10 PM
Even though the radio may sound ok, the sound quality off the radio is pretty poor. Even if you did copy it, who would buy it? It would be a mix-tape. I don't know of any album that has all of its contents on the radio - which is another thing. Nobody wants part of an album on a tape or a CD. Since you can not make a profit, it would probably be legal.

Right but I'm not talking about downloading music online to sell it, I'm talking about downloading music just to have for yourself.

RedBird777
Apr 14th 2009, 03:39 PM
Right but I'm not talking about downloading music online to sell it, I'm talking about downloading music just to have for yourself.

True. The copyright laws are in place for theft and re-selling stolen material, sooooo...I have no clue in this case. I think we would have to go into realms of extreme technicality in order to find your answer. I believe (don't quote me on this) that it is not illegal...especially since tape cassette players always have had a record function on them. If record companies really didn't want their music copied, they could have told the companies that created the technology to do so to stop. However, piracy has become an even bigger issue due to the internet. Recording a mix tape off of the radio...I truly don't know but I think it is legal.