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GitRDunn
Nov 17th 2008, 02:23 AM
Ok, I have a question. I know there are a lot of verses that say you need to tithe, but aren't there also verses about taking care of your family? What does everyone feel about tithing? Do you have to tithe 10% of your income or do you feel some of your services you do for and with the church count towards this too. Also, if there is someone who is making just enough so that they can make ends meet would you tell them to tithe even if it meant they wouldn't be able to provide clothes, or food, or medicine or something for their kids?

steelerbabe
Nov 17th 2008, 02:29 AM
One thing I have learned is that you can't outgive God. When you give, your motive must be pure and truly from the heart. Some people look at tithing as a bartering system with God. If you ask God to show you a need reagarding others, he will lead you in the right direction. When money has been extremely tight, I have volunteered my time to babysit, run errands, whatever I could do to be a blessing for someone else. Hope this helps:)

Jurell
Nov 17th 2008, 04:44 AM
When I started tithing, I did it with the motive that I could write it off come tax time. I also set up a reoccurring transaction (every 2 weeks) off of my churches website. What this did was lead to me giving without "really" giving. I also felt somewhat guilty by passing the collection plate because I had "given" on-line a few days earlier. Basically I knew I was giving, but I still felt empty.

Well, I made some stupid decisions with my money and ended up needing my "tithe" for my daily living expenses. So I tithed my time instead. I attend a LARGE church, so I helped with bulletin stuffing on Saturday morning. I directed traffic in the parking lots for one service on Sunday. I also helped out when something was posted that the church needed an extra hand with this or that.

I actually got a LARGE scene of satisfaction out of doing this. It was almost like God was teaching me to give from the heart, and not because it was the "right thing" to do. I made some GREAT friends, and learned things about my church I never knew!

Biastai
Nov 17th 2008, 04:47 AM
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."
Matthew 23:23 (NIV)

Jesus condemns hypocritical Pharisees in this passage for taking tithing to such an extent that it absorbs excessive energies and attention. One can see the extreme level to which they took it in seeing they tithed spices they purchased! They've overlooked the more important values which really deserve that attention first. This is a case of the letter of the law (people's shallow interpretation of the law! not that there's anything wrong with the law in itself) overshadowing the will of God.

If one tithes at the expense of his/her family's basic living needs, I feel that it is an example of this type of faulty tithing.

Mysteryman
Nov 17th 2008, 07:45 AM
Ok, I have a question. I know there are a lot of verses that say you need to tithe, but aren't there also verses about taking care of your family? What does everyone feel about tithing? Do you have to tithe 10% of your income or do you feel some of your services you do for and with the church count towards this too. Also, if there is someone who is making just enough so that they can make ends meet would you tell them to tithe even if it meant they wouldn't be able to provide clothes, or food, or medicine or something for their kids?

Hi

Tithing is just as much a part of the law as is circumcision. We no longer "do" the law. We establish the law, by giving out of love and not out of necessity. The levitical priesthood was the one's who received the tithe, and even they were told to gived a tenth of this tenth.

The tenth of the tenth is then given to those of Israel who had needs. In the Church, God does not ask us to give of the tithe. He asks us to give to those who have need. Not grudgingly or of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver.

If you read the first four chapters of the book of Acts, you will see, "how" and "why" giving is a necessity. However, never is the tithe spoken of !!

God now wants us to take care of the church both spiritually and literally.

Most ministers, do "not" know this truth. Some do, but many do not.

Giving from the "heart" is now required !

IN Christ - M M

Ichiban
Nov 17th 2008, 08:15 AM
I've always had a more strict opinion of tithing. If you can't give 10% of your income to God then how can you expect to give 100% of yourself to Him?

I speak from a position of inexperience and youthfulness (21 and living with the folks). So to say it is hard for me to understand sometimes, why people struggle with tithing would be accurate.

GitRDunn
Nov 17th 2008, 12:32 PM
Thanks for all of the opinions and ideas everyone, they are very helpful.

Slug1
Nov 17th 2008, 02:15 PM
God provides for us all what we need. We are the ones who allow satan to place in our hearts the desire to have more. Not what we need as God intends but what we "want"... all those gadgets, new toys, new furniture, latest cell phone etc. What we do is allow satan to steal the money we are to return to God. Instead of the money God has provided being used for "only" the needs that He know's we need (which includes our offerings) we are forced to use it instead to pay the debt's of our "wants". These wants that are not of God but of satan as he then has made us incapable to offer back to God our monitary offerings.

Let me give an example... many Christian's will question that 10% whether you want to call it an offering, sacrifice, or tithe. Yet, many who have the extra money will gladly give that 10% of their income to financial institutions who will secure their future... 401K plans, IRA's, stocks/bonds, etc. With a happy heart people fork over 10% of their pay to these financial institutions and "hope" their money is cared for. This is just another way that satan has imitated God and many give to satan with a happy heart and then question the amount of what an offering to God should be.

Who has our future in His hand? Us... by giving 10% to a bank (satan) or by giving 10% to God?

Now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with using a bank, I keep my savings and checking accounts in banks... I don't use banks to secure my future, just secure the money that God has presently trusted me with.

God has my future in His hand and I'm not allowing satan to steal my blessing by forking over my 10% to him and not to Jesus who will use the money for his Kingdom. By doing this I have more to give to Him and He provides me with more then I need as I resist satan and don't give into my "wants".

I want to give as much as I can give to God... it's not always 10% because I'm still recovering from the day's I allowed satan to place "many wants" in my heart but as debt decreases, offerings increase and I find I am MUCH better off and happier as I give to God.

Many pray to God for more provision in whatever form but what would they do with more money? Get more of their wants? Then such a prayer is not in the will of God and will not be answered IMO. How God does answer such a prayer is by removing from their hearts the "wants" that satan has placed in their hearts and what God presently provides is enough all of the sudden. So He's does answer the prayer not by providing more money but by providing strength to resist spending on stuff you don't need, by providing a happiness with what you do have, and a desire to remove the grip of satan who uses "debt" to bind you and keep you bound from offering more to God.

Mysteryman
Nov 17th 2008, 02:42 PM
God provides for us all what we need. We are the ones who allow satan to place in our hearts the desire to have more. Not what we need as God intends but what we "want"... all those gadgets, new toys, new furniture, latest cell phone etc. What we do is allow satan to steal the money we are to return to God. Instead of the money God has provided being used for "only" the needs that He know's we need (which includes our offerings) we are forced to use it instead to pay the debt's of our "wants". These wants that are not of God but of satan as he then has made us incapable to offer back to God our monitary offerings.

Let me give an example... many Christian's will question that 10% whether you want to call it an offering, sacrifice, or tithe. Yet, many who have the extra money will gladly give that 10% of their income to financial institutions who will secure their future... 401K plans, IRA's, stocks/bonds, etc. With a happy heart people fork over 10% of their pay to these financial institutions and "hope" their money is cared for. This is just another way that satan has imitated God and many give to satan with a happy heart and then question the amount of what an offering to God should be.

Who has our future in His hand? Us... by giving 10% to a bank (satan) or by giving 10% to God?

Now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with using a bank, I keep my savings and checking accounts in banks... I don't use banks to secure my future, just secure the money that God has presently trusted me with.

God has my future in His hand and I'm not allowing satan to steal my blessing by forking over my 10% to him and not to Jesus who will use the money for his Kingdom. By doing this I have more to give to Him and He provides me with more then I need as I resist satan and don't give into my "wants".

I want to give as much as I can give to God... it's not always 10% because I'm still recovering from the day's I allowed satan to place "many wants" in my heart but as debt decreases, offerings increase and I find I am MUCH better off and happier as I give to God.

Many pray to God for more provision in whatever form but what would they do with more money? Get more of their wants? Then such a prayer is not in the will of God and will not be answered IMO. How God does answer such a prayer is by removing from their hearts the "wants" that satan has placed in their hearts and what God presently provides is enough all of the sudden. So He's does answer the prayer not by providing more money but by providing strength to resist spending on stuff you don't need, by providing a happiness with what you do have, and a desire to remove the grip of satan who uses "debt" to bind you and keep you bound from offering more to God.

Actually, what this poster has said is in error !

The Word of God already has told us "what" our giving is "for" !

Just read Acts 2:42 - 47 and read Acts 4:28 - 35 and also read Romans 15:23 - 33 and read II Corinth. 8:10 - 15

militarywife
Nov 17th 2008, 03:22 PM
I am a steward of Gods finances. That means I am the manager. I am not the owner.



God calls us to give because giving makes us more Christ-like. When we give it moves us to be less selfish. We are made in Gods image and happiness comes to us when we are serving and give. Look at Jesus, He gave ALL while serving the Father, He was a cheerful giver.

Giving:

1.) Reminds us that we are not the owner. Psalm 24:1 "the earth is the Lords and everything in it."
2.) Is a form of praise and worship. 2Corinthians 9:7 "...for God loves a cheerful giver."
3.) Is spiritual warfare. Praise God. Malachi 3:11 " ' and I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, SO that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground, nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in your field,' says the Lord of hosts."

Mysteryman
Nov 17th 2008, 03:47 PM
I am a steward of Gods finances. That means I am the manager. I am not the owner.




God calls us to give because giving makes us more Christ-like. When we give it moves us to be less selfish. We are made in Gods image and happiness comes to us when we are serving and give. Look at Jesus, He gave ALL while serving the Father, He was a cheerful giver.

Giving:

1.) Reminds us that we are not the owner. Psalm 24:1 "the earth is the Lords and everything in it."
2.) Is a form of praise and worship. 2Corinthians 9:7 "...for God loves a cheerful giver."
3.) Is spiritual warfare. Praise God. Malachi 3:11 " ' and I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, SO that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground, nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in your field,' says the Lord of hosts."
Malachi is unto the Levite priests, not the Church !

IN Christ - M M

Firefighter
Nov 17th 2008, 03:50 PM
Further, the NT teaches us that it is ALL His, not just 10%. If we stay with the OT giving of 10% we are shorting God the other 90%...

militarywife
Nov 17th 2008, 03:59 PM
Malachi is unto the Levite priests, not the Church !

IN Christ - M M
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Malachi is a wonderful example of todays weakness in the church. I fully believe that the heart of tithe is very important. Do we give with a heart of obedience? Our first fruit? Our best? or do we rob God and give off the bottom?
I know that I know that the only reason "we" have ANYTHING, is because God supplied it. Jesus gave 100% and we the "church" complain about 10????
Lord, forgive me when I fail you. It is because of YOU and your grace that I AM able to give...with a heart of worship.:hug: Thank you for your promise in Malachi. Thank you for being the same yesterday today and forever. PRAISE YOU.

Mysteryman
Nov 17th 2008, 04:00 PM
Further, the NT teaches us that it is ALL His, not just 10%. If we stay with the OT giving of 10% we are shorting God the other 90%...

God does not want your 90 % either ! He wants your - "heart" - of giving !

IN Christ - M M

Mysteryman
Nov 17th 2008, 04:03 PM
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Malachi is a wonderful example of todays weakness in the church. I fully believe that the heart of tithe is very important. Do we give with a heart of obedience? Our first fruit? Our best? or do we rob God and give off the bottom?
I know that I know that the only reason "we" have ANYTHING, is because God supplied it. Jesus gave 100% and we the "church" complain about 10????
Lord, forgive me when I fail you. It is because of YOU and your grace that I AM able to give...with a heart of worship.:hug: Thank you for your promise in Malachi. Thank you for being the same yesterday today and forever. PRAISE YOU.

The "tithe" was not to be given of the heart in the OT ! It was the "Law" !

There was giving in the OT, that was called - "freewill" giving. And had nothing to do with the Law !

God wants us to give out of our hearts ! Not accoring to "any part" of the Law !

militarywife
Nov 17th 2008, 04:06 PM
Further, the NT teaches us that it is ALL His, not just 10%. If we stay with the OT giving of 10% we are shorting God the other 90%...
Yes I totally agree. How can we give "all" but also complain about 10 percent? I believe when we obediently pay our tithe...it allows us to give even more. We need to be obedient also.

Firefighter
Nov 17th 2008, 04:15 PM
The tithe is gone. It is all His. There is not a single instance in the NT that tells us we should give 10%. Every dollar we make should glorify God.

Tithing was never just 10%. While I do not have a problem with someone wanting to tithe, it is not commanded AND they should tithe according to the OT. If you are going to do it do ALL of it.

10% of everything you make

10% for religious festivals and holy days

10% (every third year) for the "the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your towns and be filled"

THAT is tithing according to the Bible, yet of all the proponents of tithing I know do not do it according to the OT teachings. Since we have no NT teachings on tithing, the only thing to follow is the OT. So why not follow ALL of it?

militarywife
Nov 17th 2008, 04:19 PM
The tithe is gone. It is all His. There is not a single instance in the NT that tells us we should give 10%. Every dollar we make should glorify God.

Tithing was never just 10%. While I do not have a problem with someone wanting to tithe, it is not commanded AND they should tithe according to the OT. If you are going to do it do ALL of it.

10% of everything you make

10% for religious festivals and holy days

10% (every third year) for the "the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your towns and be filled"

THAT is tithing according to the Bible, yet of all the proponents of tithing I know do not do it according to the OT teachings. Since we have no NT teachings on tithing, the only thing to follow is the OT. So why not follow ALL of it?
Good point. Can I have the scripture reference? Thanks!

Firefighter
Nov 17th 2008, 04:51 PM
The "Modern Tithe" to the church. Please note that this tithe was in lieu of receiving an inheritance, and was ONLY for the Levites.

Lev 27:30-32 "Every tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the trees, is the LORD's; it is holy to the LORD. If a man wishes to redeem some of his tithe, he shall add a fifth to it. And every tithe of herds and flocks, every tenth animal of all that pass under the herdsman's staff, shall be holy to the LORD.

Num 18:21-24 "To the Levites I have given every tithe in Israel for an inheritance, in return for their service that they do, their service in the tent of meeting, so that the people of Israel do not come near the tent of meeting, lest they bear sin and die. But the Levites shall do the service of the tent of meeting, and they shall bear their iniquity. It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations, and among the people of Israel they shall have no inheritance. For the tithe of the people of Israel, which they present as a contribution to the LORD, I have given to the Levites for an inheritance. Therefore I have said of them that they shall have no inheritance among the people of Israel."


The tithe for the festivals and Holy days... (you will never hear a preacher that teaches tithing preach on this scripture)

Deu 14:22-26 "You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.



Third year tithing...

Deu 26:12 "When you have finished paying all the tithe of your produce in the third year, which is the year of tithing, giving it to the Levite, the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your towns and be filled,

watchinginawe
Nov 17th 2008, 05:02 PM
Ok, I have a question. I know there are a lot of verses that say you need to tithe, but aren't there also verses about taking care of your family? What does everyone feel about tithing? Do you have to tithe 10% of your income or do you feel some of your services you do for and with the church count towards this too. Also, if there is someone who is making just enough so that they can make ends meet would you tell them to tithe even if it meant they wouldn't be able to provide clothes, or food, or medicine or something for their kids?Literally, a tithe is the definition of a portion, that portion being a tenth. So:

Tithe = 1 tenth = 10%

Tithing is giving the tithe, or the portion described as a tenth.

Thus, we have Abraham giving tithes of all, or portions of all of his substance taken from the kings (see also Genesis 28:16-22 regarding Jacobs promise to God):

Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

(Side note: Notice that Melchizedek brings forth the elements of communion in his blessing of Abraham.)

Now Melchizedek did not command Abraham to give tithes, but rather Abraham gave freely and Melchizedek RECEIVED the tithes. That is the key difference between the tithing commanded to be TAKEN by the Levitical Priesthood in the law (see Hebrews 7:5) and the tithes freely offered and received by the High Priest of the New Testament.

Giving is Biblical and certainly a 10th (a tithe) is prominent in scripture. Is giving a New Testament Biblical directive? Yes. Is a 10th commanded? Give freely.

II Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

God Bless!

Mysteryman
Nov 17th 2008, 05:34 PM
Literally, a tithe is the definition of a portion, that portion being a tenth. So:

Tithe = 1 tenth = 10%

Tithing is giving the tithe, or the portion described as a tenth.

Thus, we have Abraham giving tithes of all, or portions of all of his substance taken from the kings (see also Genesis 28:16-22 regarding Jacobs promise to God):

Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

(Side note: Notice that Melchizedek brings forth the elements of communion in his blessing of Abraham.)

Now Melchizedek did not command Abraham to give tithes, but rather Abraham gave freely and Melchizedek RECEIVED the tithes. That is the key difference between the tithing commanded to be TAKEN by the Levitical Priesthood in the law (see Hebrews 7:5) and the tithes freely offered and received by the High Priest of the New Testament.

Giving is Biblical and certainly a 10th (a tithe) is prominent in scripture. Is giving a New Testament Biblical directive? Yes. Is a 10th commanded? Give freely.

II Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

God Bless!
Abraham gave 10 % from the spoils of war !

Those who think that the tithe is unto the Church, you either have one of two options ! Give according to the Law of Moses. Or, go to war and give 10 % of the spoils of war.

In other words, the "tithe" is in no way a part of the church in the NT !! Jesus Christ is the High Priest for evermore, after the "order" of Melchizedek. So what war are you going to go and fight and win, and then give the spoils of war too ?

militarywife
Nov 17th 2008, 05:59 PM
Abraham gave 10 % from the spoils of war !

Those who think that the tithe is unto the Church, you either have one of two options ! Give according to the Law of Moses. Or, go to war and give 10 % of the spoils of war.

In other words, the "tithe" is in no way a part of the church in the NT !! Jesus Christ is the High Priest for evermore, after the "order" of Melchizedek. So what war are you going to go and fight and win, and then give the spoils of war too ?

Just my input Praise God but Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. The BIBLE is the living word of God and His word will not turn back void. Old and New God is the same. :hug:

Mysteryman
Nov 17th 2008, 06:04 PM
Just my input Praise God but Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. The BIBLE is the living word of God and His word will not turn back void. Old and New God is the same. :hug:

True, and also the Word of God does not contradict itself !

Which still leaves you with one of two options ! Go back and do the Law of Moses, or go to war, and send Jesus a post card to heaven. Don't forget that big fat check. I wonder if Jesus has a bank to cash it in, in heaven ? Anyone wonder if there are even postman that will deliver it ?

watchinginawe
Nov 17th 2008, 06:12 PM
Abraham gave 10 % from the spoils of war !

Those who think that the tithe is unto the Church, you either have one of two options ! Give according to the Law of Moses. Or, go to war and give 10 % of the spoils of war.

In other words, the "tithe" is in no way a part of the church in the NT !! Jesus Christ is the High Priest for evermore, after the "order" of Melchizedek. So what war are you going to go and fight and win, and then give the spoils of war too ?Huh? I suppose you skipped the reference regarding Jacob.

Regardless, your assertion that one must go to war in order for proper tithing is just strange. As is your proposition of performing the whole tithe under the law. Again, just strange. Two options? Please brother, don't be so absurd.

If you read my post, a tithe is a tenth. tithing is giving a tenth part. That stands completely outside of the Levitical priesthood as given by the scriptures I supplied before there was even a Levi (by Abraham and Jacob).

Chapter 7 of Hebrews is pretty deep in how even the Levites had paid tithes to someone other than the Levitical priesthood. Give it a read and see if there are some "mysteries" that you are glossing over in your adherence to your "letter". ;)

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Nov 17th 2008, 06:24 PM
Which still leaves you with one of two options ! Go back and do the Law of Moses, or go to war, and send Jesus a post card to heaven. Don't forget that big fat check. I wonder if Jesus has a bank to cash it in, in heaven ? Anyone wonder if there are even postman that will deliver it ?OK, so we have you down for:

No giving: Mysteryman
Reason: God can't receive it anyway
Application: I'll put it all in the barn God gave me

Does that sum it up?

God Bless!

Mysteryman
Nov 17th 2008, 06:27 PM
Huh? I suppose you skipped the reference regarding Jacob.

Regardless, your assertion that one must go to war in order for proper tithing is just strange. As is your proposition of performing the whole tithe under the law. Again, just strange. Two options? Please brother, don't be so absurd.

If you read my post, a tithe is a tenth. tithing is giving a tenth part. That stands completely outside of the Levitical priesthood as given by the scriptures I supplied before there was even a Levi (by Abraham and Jacob).

Chapter 7 of Hebrews is pretty deep in how even the Levites had paid tithes to someone other than the Levitical priesthood. Give it a read and see if there are some "mysteries" that you are glossing over in your adherence to your "letter". ;)

God Bless!
I didn't overlook over anything. I just pointed out the truth !

Substance ! Context has - "substance". If you overlook the substance, they you are not reading what is written !

This still leaves you with one of two reasons to give a tithe !

1. According to the Law of Moses

2. God to war and give to the High Priest ( Christ ) Send it special delivery, so it will not get there too late !

What war ? Geesh, you never mentioned a war ! Wonder why ?

The Word of God is "clear" - Do not give out of necessity ! If anyone states, that a tithe is a minimum, or even implies such, they clearly have taught that giving of the tithe is a necessity !!

Deceit !

watchinginawe
Nov 17th 2008, 06:33 PM
I didn't overlook over anything. I just pointed out the truth !

Substance ! Context has - "substance". If you overlook the substance, they you are not reading what is written !

This still leaves you with one of two reasons to give a tithe !

1. According to the Law of Moses

2. God to war and give to the High Priest ( Christ ) Send it special delivery, so it will not get there too late !

What war ? Geesh, you never mentioned a war ! Wonder why ?

The Word of God is "clear" - Do not give out of necessity ! If anyone states, that a tithe is a minimum, or even implies such, they clearly have taught that giving of the tithe is a necessity !!

Deceit !Did you read my post? I know you quoted it, but did you read my post? If so, perhaps you can show me where I stated that giving of the tithe (tithing) is a necessity. If there is deceit at work here, then it is how you are carrying on about my post.

Do you think I tried to "cover up" what Abraham gave? Read my post Mysteryman. You quoted it.

Regardless, we know where you stand. Good job in clearly articulating your spirit on the matter.

God Bless!

militarywife
Nov 17th 2008, 06:36 PM
I didn't overlook over anything. I just pointed out the truth !

Substance ! Context has - "substance". If you overlook the substance, they you are not reading what is written !

This still leaves you with one of two reasons to give a tithe !

1. According to the Law of Moses

2. God to war and give to the High Priest ( Christ ) Send it special delivery, so it will not get there too late !

What war ? Geesh, you never mentioned a war ! Wonder why ?

The Word of God is "clear" - Do not give out of necessity ! If anyone states, that a tithe is a minimum, or even implies such, they clearly have taught that giving of the tithe is a necessity !!

Deceit !

Im sorry, the closer I get to my God, the more I want to give. I see no deceit in that only obedience and love. My God is looking at my heart I clearly see that. I would also like to praise my God for blessing me/us so that we can be a blessing to others THROUGH Christ Jesus.
Amen.

watchinginawe
Nov 17th 2008, 06:42 PM
This still leaves you with one of two reasons to give a tithe !

1. According to the Law of Moses

2. God to war and give to the High Priest ( Christ ) Send it special delivery, so it will not get there too late !I guess I will go ahead and talk about the following passage as well and try to see if I can put it into some form of context for you:

Genesis 28:18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.

19 And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.

20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,

21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:

22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Now the scriptures don't offer a solution to your problem of how to beam the substance up to God, but Jacob promises to God to give the tenth unto Him.

So, at the least, we can add a 3rd option to your "rules of tithing":

3. According to how you want to recognize the blessings that God gives us by giving back to God a tenth.

Now, to be sure, I have not stated that we are commanded in giving a tenth, or a tithe. However, I will say that the practice of giving a tenth is well established in the Bible for those who want a guideline. As I stated before, we should give, not by commandment, but freely as we purpose from the heart.

Now the question to you is: Does what Jacob promised fit this description? Of course it does.

God Bless!

treeindawind
Nov 17th 2008, 06:44 PM
I am shocked that the majority here seems to have justified for themselves their own interpretations of tithing. I believe God made it pretty simple for us, just one out of ten, no ifs ands or buts.

The issue is really weather or not you really believe God or not.

Do you trust in him or in your money?

Did God not tell us that we cannot have two masters.

Trust in and serve God then use your money do not serve it.

RabbiKnife
Nov 17th 2008, 06:45 PM
Under the OT, I was told not to commit adultery.
Under the NT, I am instructed not to lust.

Under the OT, I was told not to kill.
Under the NT, I am told to not hate.

Under the OT, my sins were administratively rolled back by a animal blood offering.
Under the NT, my sins are eternally forgiven, once and for all, by the blood of the spotless Lamb of God.

Under the OT, I paid tithes as a part of a religious system.
Under the NT, I give with joy

Under the OT, I was required to pay 10%...on several occasions.

I notice that my requirements under the NT are always significantly more imposing than my requirements under the OT, and my benefits are significantly better as well.

I leave it to you to decide what that means about a percentage and compared between the OT and the NT...

Mysteryman
Nov 17th 2008, 06:48 PM
I didn't overlook over anything. I just pointed out the truth !

Substance ! Context has - "substance". If you overlook the substance, they you are not reading what is written !

This still leaves you with one of two reasons to give a tithe !

1. According to the Law of Moses

2. God to war and give to the High Priest ( Christ ) Send it special delivery, so it will not get there too late !

What war ? Geesh, you never mentioned a war ! Wonder why ?

The Word of God is "clear" - Do not give out of necessity ! If anyone states, that a tithe is a minimum, or even implies such, they clearly have taught that giving of the tithe is a necessity !!

Deceit !

Im sorry, the closer I get to my God, the more I want to give. I see no deceit in that only obedience and love. My God is looking at my heart I clearly see that. I would also like to praise my God for blessing me/us so that we can be a blessing to others THROUGH Christ Jesus.
Amen.
This is all nice. Sounds nice. Even smells nice. But it is "not" why you give !

God wants us to give from out hearts, but he also tells us "where" it goes and "for what" !

They laid the money down at the apostles feet and distribution was made to every man that had need.

Give from the heart, lay your money down, and distribution is made to every man that has need. < That's it ! I already gave all the verses that pertain. I wonder if "anyone" read them ?

treeindawind
Nov 17th 2008, 06:56 PM
My opinion is Tithe first, then give some more, then serve every chance you get and Love every minute of all of it while giving all the Glory for all good things to your Lord and Savior Jesus.:pp

militarywife
Nov 17th 2008, 06:57 PM
[quote=militarywife;1870899]
This is all nice. Sounds nice. Even smells nice. But it is "not" why you give !

God wants us to give from out hearts, but he also tells us "where" it goes and "for what" !

They laid the money down at the apostles feet and distribution was made to every man that had need.

Give from the heart, lay your money down, and distribution is made to every man that has need. < That's it ! I already gave all the verses that pertain. I wonder if "anyone" read them ?

Matthew 10:11
Im done.:hug:

Veretax
Nov 17th 2008, 06:59 PM
I look at tithing differently than most. I had a pastor a few years ago who brought me to this belief. See I believe God promises provisions in certain areas. Food, Shelter, Clothing, and I'd say medicines are all necessities. The bible talks about the first fruits of the increase. I have always understood that to be what you take in that is above what is normal. So when I look at those things I don't count them as part of the income that I'd calculate a 'tithe' on per say. I look at what is left over after I've lived up to all my obligations (sadly this includes bad debt that I got into earlier in life), and then we give what little is after that. It isn't a lot, but I give it cheerfuly and pray that the Lord can somehow multiply it until I am able to give more.

That's at least how we give. Its not technically a tithe, because sometimes its more than a tenth and sometimes its less, it really depends on the current circumstanecs of the family as other things can crop up from time to time.

I do believe though that we are supposed to give as much of our time to him as we can.

watchinginawe
Nov 17th 2008, 08:06 PM
Now Melchizedek did not command Abraham to give tithes, but rather Abraham gave freely and Melchizedek RECEIVED the tithes. That is the key difference between the tithing commanded to be TAKEN by the Levitical Priesthood in the law (see Hebrews 7:5) and the tithes freely offered and received by the High Priest of the New Testament.Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

As I offered before, the difference between the tithe taken by the Levitical preisthood and in NT giving is that of commandment vs. giving freely. Is the New Testament Church to TAKE tithes by commandment? No, there is no such commandment in the scriptures. Is the New Testament Church able to receive tithes and/or any other gift freely given and purposed in the heart of a giver? Yes, I believe the Church and the administration therefore may receive a gift from someone who wants to give something back to God of what they have been blessed with from God.

I Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

In fact, Paul above has commissioned the Churches to receive gifts or portions accordingly to that which God has prospered those in the Church. The Churches would make receiving an offering a continual and regular part of when the Church came together.

Jesus beholding how the people gave:

Mark 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

Does Jesus still behold how we give? Think about it. The widow above gave two mites and Jesus memorialized her gift in scripture.

God Bless!

Mysteryman
Nov 17th 2008, 09:35 PM
Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

As I offered before, the difference between the tithe taken by the Levitical preisthood and in NT giving is that of commandment vs. giving freely. Is the New Testament Church to TAKE tithes by commandment? No, there is no such commandment in the scriptures. Is the New Testament Church able to receive tithes and/or any other gift freely given and purposed in the heart of a giver? Yes, I believe the Church and the administration therefore may receive a gift from someone who wants to give something back to God of what they have been blessed with from God.

I Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

In fact, Paul above has commissioned the Churches to receive gifts or portions accordingly to that which God has prospered those in the Church. The Churches would make receiving an offering a continual and regular part of when the Church came together.

Jesus beholding how the people gave:

Mark 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

Does Jesus still behold how we give? Think about it. The widow above gave two mites and Jesus memorialized her gift in scripture.

God Bless!
May I suggest a more fuller reading of the Church epistles. Why I say this, is because of what I have said before. Giving from th heart is right. And even giving to leadership within the church is correct, "because" a church leader is worthy of his work. But the leadership is not worthy of all the money given. And they are not worthy of "what" it is "for" !!

The seven church epistles already tell us "what" it is "for". For us to not claim what it is for, is like saying that the leadership have every right to do whatever they please with it. And this is just not true !

We have too many examples within the seven church epistles to "just not say anything " ! Spiritually, you have every right to speak up if the church is not giving to those who have need. And I do not mean just some of the giving. I mean all of the giving, except the minister who is worthy of his labor.

IN Christ - M M

watchinginawe
Nov 17th 2008, 09:53 PM
May I suggest a more fuller reading of the Church epistles. Why I say this, is because of what I have said before. Giving from th heart is right. And even giving to leadership within the church is correct, "because" a church leader is worthy of his work. But the leadership is not worthy of all the money given. And they are not worthy of "what" it is "for" !!

The seven church epistles already tell us "what" it is "for". For us to not claim what it is for, is like saying that the leadership have every right to do whatever they please with it. And this is just not true !

We have too many examples within the seven church epistles to "just not say anything " ! Spiritually, you have every right to speak up if the church is not giving to those who have need. And I do not mean just some of the giving. I mean all of the giving, except the minister who is worthy of his labor.

IN Christ - M MThis thread is on the giving side of things. But even on the spending side, I think an examination of how Jesus and the disciples held a treasury and spent from that for their own gatherings is instructive. Notwithstanding, I believe the Church is responsible for how money is used in the Church. So overall, I am sensitive to your point.

God Bless!

Mysteryman
Nov 17th 2008, 10:25 PM
This thread is on the giving side of things. But even on the spending side, I think an examination of how Jesus and the disciples held a treasury and spent from that for their own gatherings is instructive. Notwithstanding, I believe the Church is responsible for how money is used in the Church. So overall, I am sensitive to your point.

God Bless!

My view is nothing short of only being biblical. I 'see' no records within the Word of God showing us any examples of how to spend in the church, other than the example I have shown from "scripture" !

All else is man made doctorines. Excuses, reasons for, etc, etc. We even have television ministries giving us their private interpretations, without anyone questioning their authority to give such reasons for what they spew out of their mouths !

I just saw on TV the other day, that if you want to get out of "debt", for you to go in debt with your credit card, so that God can bring you out of debt.

Did you just read what I just wrote ? Go in debt because you need to get out of debt . God tells us to give out of what we have and not out of what we have not. So why would any ministry tell someone who is in debt, to go in debt ?

Some ministries tell people, that they help pay for TV time to over the world, to evangilize. What a lie, as far as the Word of God is concerned ! First, that is not what giving your money is "for". Second, if you have a knowledge of the truth, you "would know", that apostles, prophets, teachers, evangilists, and pastors are given "unto the church". Just read Ephesians 4:10 thru 15. The church is responsible to be "ambassadors" for Christ, not evangilists ! So giving to TV ministries is dead wrong ! And, these ministers are teaching lies . I have also seen them say on TV, that if you give a love offering, this book is free. What a bunch of ----- !

The book is not free. Try to get it without giving a love offering !

You will find out just how free this book is. Some of them do give certain material away free. But there is a hidden motive ! Its called - The tithe ! One or two weeks of your tithe and they will be making a substantial profit. After that it is all gravy.

Firefighter
Nov 17th 2008, 10:27 PM
The church will do what Christians do. Spend whatever they get, make bills through debt to make sure there are very little funds to give away. I have pastored a church for a little over three years that feeds the entire congregation (between 60 and 150) every Sunday without fail on a $600 a month budget. Granted, we don't have a pipe organ or the perfect colored carpet or even brass collection plates, but somehow we have managed. Out of that $600 almost 85% of that goes to evangelistic efforts.

Somewhere down the road (read Catholic Church) tithing came back. There is no mention of it for hundreds of years until the church needed it to build huge cathedrals. Go ahead, look. Pastors have stopped relying on God to supply their every need and started relying on their flocks to supply their every need.

Churches that require tithing also expect the widows to pay tithes which just blows my mind, but at least we could afford that new...

tgallison
Nov 17th 2008, 11:07 PM
"And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? He saith, yes, And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, what thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? Peter saith unto him, of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free."

"So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Not withstanding, give all your goods to the poor, and come and follow me.

To give to the poor, or to give a drink of water to a stranger is what God requires.

This doesn't necessarily mean give to give for some building that someone unecessarily indebted others to, when we are told not to indebt outselves with usury. For we are to be free in the Lord to give with our whole heart as the Lord leads us and not to be in bondage to others.

GitRDunn
Nov 18th 2008, 12:59 AM
God provides for us all what we need. We are the ones who allow satan to place in our hearts the desire to have more. Not what we need as God intends but what we "want"... all those gadgets, new toys, new furniture, latest cell phone etc. What we do is allow satan to steal the money we are to return to God. Instead of the money God has provided being used for "only" the needs that He know's we need (which includes our offerings) we are forced to use it instead to pay the debt's of our "wants". These wants that are not of God but of satan as he then has made us incapable to offer back to God our monitary offerings.

Let me give an example... many Christian's will question that 10% whether you want to call it an offering, sacrifice, or tithe. Yet, many who have the extra money will gladly give that 10% of their income to financial institutions who will secure their future... 401K plans, IRA's, stocks/bonds, etc. With a happy heart people fork over 10% of their pay to these financial institutions and "hope" their money is cared for. This is just another way that satan has imitated God and many give to satan with a happy heart and then question the amount of what an offering to God should be.

Who has our future in His hand? Us... by giving 10% to a bank (satan) or by giving 10% to God?

Now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with using a bank, I keep my savings and checking accounts in banks... I don't use banks to secure my future, just secure the money that God has presently trusted me with.

God has my future in His hand and I'm not allowing satan to steal my blessing by forking over my 10% to him and not to Jesus who will use the money for his Kingdom. By doing this I have more to give to Him and He provides me with more then I need as I resist satan and don't give into my "wants".

I want to give as much as I can give to God... it's not always 10% because I'm still recovering from the day's I allowed satan to place "many wants" in my heart but as debt decreases, offerings increase and I find I am MUCH better off and happier as I give to God.

Many pray to God for more provision in whatever form but what would they do with more money? Get more of their wants? Then such a prayer is not in the will of God and will not be answered IMO. How God does answer such a prayer is by removing from their hearts the "wants" that satan has placed in their hearts and what God presently provides is enough all of the sudden. So He's does answer the prayer not by providing more money but by providing strength to resist spending on stuff you don't need, by providing a happiness with what you do have, and a desire to remove the grip of satan who uses "debt" to bind you and keep you bound from offering more to God.
Well what would you say to a family that made just enough to pay for necessities (food, clothes, heat, etc.), but didn't put any into savings nor on "wants" that they didn't need? What if a family already receives money from the church to help with these necessities, should they tithe and just give the money back to the church so they can receive it back again in more needed aid?


The church will do what Christians do. Spend whatever they get, make bills through debt to make sure there are very little funds to give away. I have pastored a church for a little over three years that feeds the entire congregation (between 60 and 150) every Sunday without fail on a $600 a month budget. Granted, we don't have a pipe organ or the perfect colored carpet or even brass collection plates, but somehow we have managed. Out of that $600 almost 85% of that goes to evangelistic efforts.

Somewhere down the road (read Catholic Church) tithing came back. There is no mention of it for hundreds of years until the church needed it to build huge cathedrals. Go ahead, look. Pastors have stopped relying on God to supply their every need and started relying on their flocks to supply their every need.

Churches that require tithing also expect the widows to pay tithes which just blows my mind, but at least we could afford that new...
Very well put and good point.

Slug1
Nov 18th 2008, 02:13 AM
Well what would you say to a family that made just enough to pay for necessities (food, clothes, heat, etc.), but didn't put any into savings nor on "wants" that they didn't need? What if a family already receives money from the church to help with these necessities, should they tithe and just give the money back to the church so they can receive it back again in more needed aid?
Be like that widow and give out of your funds that you have... if that is $1 and it is given with a happy heart. Then you have given glory to God with $1.

I've been there and there are not many I know who have not been there... where a single dollar each week was all I could give. As time passed, $5 a week, then $10 till today where I can give 10% with a happy heart. In time, it will be more. After God had a moment with my heart one time in the past I care less anymore about money. I still suffer the consequences of keeping up with the Jones, impulse spending etc. In time, this debt will be gone... where will that money go once it's free from paying off debt?

Into a chest located on the alter during our offering call, into donations for ministry around the world, into the KLOVE fund drive etc.

I don't need the money God provides me with except to pay the bills, live a lifestyle God has set in my heart, keep the emergency fund up to a required goal, some money to savings for those vacations and special purchases we save for (no more credit)... all the rest, that's for God to use and I don't care how he uses it.

Let me testify to something... About 2 years ago I saved up $1000, took me about a year. The purpose was to purchase a rifle that I "wanted". I'm a hunter, I have a shotgun for specific game I hunt, I have a .270 rifle for larger game I hunt. So I have my needs met but I "wanted" an M4 rifle. I'm a retired Infantryman, at the time I was still in the Army and I "wanted" an M4 for target practice and to keep the marksmanship skill up after I retired. So I began to save and saved away for a year. When I began to look in all the shops for this rifle I began to second guess this "want". So what does a Christian do... I got on my knees and prayed. This began the ministering I have received from God to change my heart about my "attitude" about money. In that single prayer God began to set my desires in alignment with His will.

The next day I was driving to work and KLOVE radio began their fall fund raiser drive. That day I gave them a years worth up front donation of $500. As it says in scripture in 2 Cor 9: 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. After I hit that send button and donated that money, I fell to my knees and cried... I have never felt God's love that way before in my life. This was new, and the happiness I felt to give away that money... no words.

The rest of that money... I was free to use as I wanted and God clearly let me know this as I felt no more second guessing on what to do with it... I spent it on other stuff I "needed" but resisted buying cause I was so bent on saving money that whole year so I went without stuff I needed to go after that "want".

Yeah, I'd have nothing if I did all this on my own and not with God's blessings. I don't, I can't forget my life when a $1 left over at the end of the month meant I wasn't in debt. Right now I'm still working off my debt but I give first to God... it's the very first thing in our budget and it don't change unless it's "more" and never less.

Biastai
Nov 18th 2008, 03:02 AM
Well what would you say to a family that made just enough to pay for necessities (food, clothes, heat, etc.), but didn't put any into savings nor on "wants" that they didn't need? What if a family already receives money from the church to help with these necessities, should they tithe and just give the money back to the church so they can receive it back again in more needed aid?


Exactly, I think tithing advocates lost sight of the original poster's question. Let's say you were a leader within your church. Among your congregation is such a family, one where 100% is needed to provide the basic living needs of its members. Not to live comfortably, but to barely get by. You as a church leader are fully aware of this. Yet you compel the head of this family to tithe while supporting your stance with passages from Deuteronomy and Malachi. You also for good measure quote Matthew 6:25-34 because from your own experience, you've never had to worry about trivial things such as clothing and food. I don't know about you, but I'd be very fearful of committing this type of act.

Think back Paul's attitude to Judaizers within or intruding his churches compelling Gentiles to be circumcized. Also, remember his teachings about unity of the church. What if a demand to pay tithe caused a spiritual struggle for a believer who was otherwise fully devoted to Christ in his work in the church? What if he leaves the church because of it? Someone would be causing other believers, ones with so-called "weaker" faith, to stumble. And that applies to both situations: whether one can afford to pay tithe or not.

Veretax
Nov 18th 2008, 11:41 AM
Be like that widow and give out of your funds that you have... if that is $1 and it is given with a happy heart. Then you have given glory to God with $1.

I've been there and there are not many I know who have not been there... where a single dollar each week was all I could give. As time passed, $5 a week, then $10 till today where I can give 10% with a happy heart. In time, it will be more. After God had a moment with my heart one time in the past I care less anymore about money. I still suffer the consequences of keeping up with the Jones, impulse spending etc. In time, this debt will be gone... where will that money go once it's free from paying off debt?

Into a chest located on the alter during our offering call, into donations for ministry around the world, into the KLOVE fund drive etc.

I don't need the money God provides me with except to pay the bills, live a lifestyle God has set in my heart, keep the emergency fund up to a required goal, some money to savings for those vacations and special purchases we save for (no more credit)... all the rest, that's for God to use and I don't care how he uses it.

Let me testify to something... About 2 years ago I saved up $1000, took me about a year. The purpose was to purchase a rifle that I "wanted". I'm a hunter, I have a shotgun for specific game I hunt, I have a .270 rifle for larger game I hunt. So I have my needs met but I "wanted" an M4 rifle. I'm a retired Infantryman, at the time I was still in the Army and I "wanted" an M4 for target practice and to keep the marksmanship skill up after I retired. So I began to save and saved away for a year. When I began to look in all the shops for this rifle I began to second guess this "want". So what does a Christian do... I got on my knees and prayed. This began the ministering I have received from God to change my heart about my "attitude" about money. In that single prayer God began to set my desires in alignment with His will.

The next day I was driving to work and KLOVE radio began their fall fund raiser drive. That day I gave them a years worth up front donation of $500. As it says in scripture in 2 Cor 9: 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. After I hit that send button and donated that money, I fell to my knees and cried... I have never felt God's love that way before in my life. This was new, and the happiness I felt to give away that money... no words.

The rest of that money... I was free to use as I wanted and God clearly let me know this as I felt no more second guessing on what to do with it... I spent it on other stuff I "needed" but resisted buying cause I was so bent on saving money that whole year so I went without stuff I needed to go after that "want".

Yeah, I'd have nothing if I did all this on my own and not with God's blessings. I don't, I can't forget my life when a $1 left over at the end of the month meant I wasn't in debt. Right now I'm still working off my debt but I give first to God... it's the very first thing in our budget and it don't change unless it's "more" and never less.


What of the person who cannot save hardly anything and barely makes ends meet paycheck to paycheck?

GitRDunn
Nov 18th 2008, 12:41 PM
What of the person who cannot save hardly anything and barely makes ends meet paycheck to paycheck?
I think what he's saying is that he knows people are in that position and that they can't always tithe. He said that if they can tithe they should, but if their "needs" require too much money, then give what you can out of heart and God will accept it.


Exactly, I think tithing advocates lost sight of the original poster's question. Let's say you were a leader within your church. Among your congregation is such a family, one where 100% is needed to provide the basic living needs of its members. Not to live comfortably, but to barely get by. You as a church leader are fully aware of this. Yet you compel the head of this family to tithe while supporting your stance with passages from Deuteronomy and Malachi. You also for good measure quote Matthew 6:25-34 because from your own experience, you've never had to worry about trivial things such as clothing and food. I don't know about you, but I'd be very fearful of committing this type of act.

Think back Paul's attitude to Judaizers within or intruding his churches compelling Gentiles to be circumcized. Also, remember his teachings about unity of the church. What if a demand to pay tithe caused a spiritual struggle for a believer who was otherwise fully devoted to Christ in his work in the church? What if he leaves the church because of it? Someone would be causing other believers, ones with so-called "weaker" faith, to stumble. And that applies to both situations: whether one can afford to pay tithe or not.
That is a very good point and exactly how I feel.

Mysteryman
Nov 18th 2008, 01:11 PM
Be like that widow and give out of your funds that you have... if that is $1 and it is given with a happy heart. Then you have given glory to God with $1.

I've been there and there are not many I know who have not been there... where a single dollar each week was all I could give. As time passed, $5 a week, then $10 till today where I can give 10% with a happy heart. In time, it will be more. After God had a moment with my heart one time in the past I care less anymore about money. I still suffer the consequences of keeping up with the Jones, impulse spending etc. In time, this debt will be gone... where will that money go once it's free from paying off debt?

Into a chest located on the alter during our offering call, into donations for ministry around the world, into the KLOVE fund drive etc.

I don't need the money God provides me with except to pay the bills, live a lifestyle God has set in my heart, keep the emergency fund up to a required goal, some money to savings for those vacations and special purchases we save for (no more credit)... all the rest, that's for God to use and I don't care how he uses it.

Let me testify to something... About 2 years ago I saved up $1000, took me about a year. The purpose was to purchase a rifle that I "wanted". I'm a hunter, I have a shotgun for specific game I hunt, I have a .270 rifle for larger game I hunt. So I have my needs met but I "wanted" an M4 rifle. I'm a retired Infantryman, at the time I was still in the Army and I "wanted" an M4 for target practice and to keep the marksmanship skill up after I retired. So I began to save and saved away for a year. When I began to look in all the shops for this rifle I began to second guess this "want". So what does a Christian do... I got on my knees and prayed. This began the ministering I have received from God to change my heart about my "attitude" about money. In that single prayer God began to set my desires in alignment with His will.

The next day I was driving to work and KLOVE radio began their fall fund raiser drive. That day I gave them a years worth up front donation of $500. As it says in scripture in 2 Cor 9: 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. After I hit that send button and donated that money, I fell to my knees and cried... I have never felt God's love that way before in my life. This was new, and the happiness I felt to give away that money... no words.

The rest of that money... I was free to use as I wanted and God clearly let me know this as I felt no more second guessing on what to do with it... I spent it on other stuff I "needed" but resisted buying cause I was so bent on saving money that whole year so I went without stuff I needed to go after that "want".

Yeah, I'd have nothing if I did all this on my own and not with God's blessings. I don't, I can't forget my life when a $1 left over at the end of the month meant I wasn't in debt. Right now I'm still working off my debt but I give first to God... it's the very first thing in our budget and it don't change unless it's "more" and never less.

When you say, that you do not care how God uses the money. The bottom line is, is that you don't care !

God has given us His Word, and "He" does care how the money is used !

Biastai
Nov 18th 2008, 01:39 PM
Going on with this discussion, it should be understood that one who appears to argue against tithing as a general practice is most likely in reality arguing against the strict enforcement of tithing. I'm not against tithing in general, but to put more emphasis on whether or not to tithe than on the unity of the faith of believers is wrong according to Pauline teachings.

Therefore, if one demands a tithe from a believer in a way that it causes a internal struggle in his faith, it is wrong. If another's faith leads him to tithe and one tries to prevent him from doing so stating that he doesn't have to or even shouldn't, it is also wrong. The key is not to play the stumbling block.

A similar situation happened in a controversy in the early church about eating meat because one may unknowingly purchase meat in the market that has been sacrificed to an idol.

"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' " So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men."
Romans 14:1-18

For the record, Paul agreed with the "enlightened" view that an idol was a non-entity and that meat sacrificed to it is fine to eat. Nevertheless, he condemned those who caused those of "weaker" faith to stumble by not considering their faith. Paul addressed not so much the interpretation of laws than a lack of love.

joztok
Nov 18th 2008, 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by GitRDunn http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1870166#post1870166)
Ok, I have a question. I know there are a lot of verses that say you need to tithe, but aren't there also verses about taking care of your family? What does everyone feel about tithing? Do you have to tithe 10% of your income or do you feel some of your services you do for and with the church count towards this too. Also, if there is someone who is making just enough so that they can make ends meet would you tell them to tithe even if it meant they wouldn't be able to provide clothes, or food, or medicine or something for their kids? Every Christian person who I know is in debt tithes. Not ONE is even close to getting out of debt. It is a heresy that has crippled too many of my friends.

One of my friends suddenly was free from the sick mentallity when God clearly spoke to her 'Do not tithe'. It shook her and she enquired to me, a pastor and another close friends. She is free from it and is now grateful that she no longer does it. To another three of my close friends, it is actually a mental sickness. Another friend is realising that he has to stop otherwise he will never be able to pay off his debts.

I've taken the approach before giving a whole bunch of scriptures, but that doesn't seem to to work, as those who are proud of their works showcase what little they know anyway and then the discussion goes no where.

I'll give you a true story that happened to me last year.
I volunteered to help out a conference that hosted Benny Hinn and I was an usher. He spoke on 'tithing and giving sacrificially'. His message was a complete contradiction and wasted an hour and a half of everyones time.

Then he asked an amazing question. "How many people are in debt? Raise your hands."

I expected maybe a third to a half of the room may put their hands up. I was in a building that was filled with over 3000 people. I did not see one person keep there hand down. I would say that 95% of the people in that room who gave 'sacrificially' and 'tithed' were in debt. And I mean huge debt! People started putting down their hands as Hinn said "Over $20,000... $30,000... $50,000... $100,000. More then half the room still had there hands up.

I was sick. I had to collect the tithes of thousands of people WHO HAD NO MONEY. Those who gave in 'faith', had no money.The tithe is unbiblical and does not work. I have seen the extent of it's crippling power over so many Christian's lives. Be free of it and give freely when free of debt. We are called to good stewards, not blind givers.

joztok
Nov 18th 2008, 02:40 PM
Going on with this discussion, it should be understood that one who appears to argue against tithing as a general practice is most likely in reality arguing against the strict enforcement of tithing. I'm not against tithing in general, but to put more emphasis on whether or not to tithe than on the unity of the faith of believers is wrong according to Pauline teachings.

... The key is not to play the stumbling block.

For the record, Paul agreed with the "enlightened" view that an idol was a non-entity and that meat sacrificed to it is fine to eat. Nevertheless, he condemned those who caused those of "weaker" faith to stumble by not considering their faith. Paul addressed not so much the interpretation of laws than a lack of love.

According to 'Pauline Teaching', he would consider the 'tithe' doctrine an 'another gospel'. The key to not play the stumbling block is to recognise it for what it is and then remove it so those don't stumble over it. Then there is nothing to stumble over. Your use of Paul 'condemning' those of 'weaker' faith to stumble is slightly wrong. He was highlighting the different ethnic groups that enforced their cultural beliefs into what they thought God considered to be right and wrong.

The reason why the Tithing heresy was bought in was the same reason the Roman Catholic Church bought it in, to keep building church buildings. The same way the RCC did not care for the common person back then centuries ago with their doctrines is very similar the way Pentecostal churches behave in terms of putting buildings first, doctrinal truth somewhere in the middle-last, people last.

I know. I've been. I've seen. I've forgiven those who preach it. But I cannot be silent on these issues that are severely destroying many Christian's lives. This is not good stewardship of finances.

If it has not been declared on BibleForums yet, I'll say it:
Jesus NEVER tithed.
Mary and Joseph NEVER tithed.
The Apostle Paul NEVER tithed.
The Apostle Peter NEVER tithed.
The Apostle John NEVER tithed.
The Tax Collector Matthew NEVER tithed.

Jesus NEVER preached on the tithe.
The writer of Hebrews speaks how the tithe is NO MORE because THE RULES HAVE CHANGED. We are under a new priesthood. The rules change if one is made high priest from a different tribe.
High-Priests came from the tribe of Levi. Jesus Christ, our new High Priest came from the tribe of Judah. Therefore, the rules have changed. Read it for yourself in Hebrews 7. He ushered in an eternal priesthood which we are now apart of, not an earthly one that is dependent upon man's folly.

Mysteryman
Nov 18th 2008, 02:46 PM
Going on with this discussion, it should be understood that one who appears to argue against tithing as a general practice is most likely in reality arguing against the strict enforcement of tithing. I'm not against tithing in general, but to put more emphasis on whether or not to tithe than on the unity of the faith of believers is wrong according to Pauline teachings.

Therefore, if one demands a tithe from a believer in a way that it causes a internal struggle in his faith, it is wrong. If another's faith leads him to tithe and one tries to prevent him from doing so stating that he doesn't have to or even shouldn't, it is also wrong. The key is not to play the stumbling block.

A similar situation happened in a controversy in the early church about eating meat because one may unknowingly purchase meat in the market that has been sacrificed to an idol.

"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' " So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men."
Romans 14:1-18

For the record, Paul agreed with the "enlightened" view that an idol was a non-entity and that meat sacrificed to it is fine to eat. Nevertheless, he condemned those who caused those of "weaker" faith to stumble by not considering their faith. Paul addressed not so much the interpretation of laws than a lack of love.

The "key" is not to teach the tithe whatsoever ! It has 'nothing' to do with the heart in any way, form or fashion !

You can not teach the tithe in any manner, shape or form, that it does not cause a stumbling block !

Eventually people will strive to eventually give a tithe. < This "is not" the heart of giving !!

Mysteryman
Nov 18th 2008, 02:49 PM
According to 'Pauline Teaching', he would consider the 'tithe' doctrine an 'another gospel'. The key to not play the stumbling block is to recognise it for what it is and then remove it so those don't stumble over it. Then there is nothing to stumble over. Your use of Paul 'condemning' those of 'weaker' faith to stumble is slightly wrong. He was highlighting the different ethnic groups that enforced their cultural beliefs into what they thought God considered to be right and wrong.

The reason why the Tithing heresy was bought in was the same reason the Roman Catholic Church bought it in, to keep building church buildings. The same way the RCC did not care for the common person back then centuries ago with their doctrines is very similar the way Pentecostal churches behave in terms of putting buildings first, doctrinal truth somewhere in the middle-last, people last.

I know. I've been. I've seen. I've forgiven those who preach it. But I cannot be silent on these issues that are severely destroying many Christian's lives. This is not good stewardship of finances.

If it has not been declared on BibleForums yet, I'll say it:
Jesus NEVER tithed.
Mary and Joseph NEVER tithed.
The Apostle Paul NEVER tithed.
The Apostle Peter NEVER tithed.
The Apostle John NEVER tithed.
The Tax Collector Matthew NEVER tithed.

Jesus NEVER preached on the tithe.
The writer of Hebrews speaks how the tithe is NO MORE because THE RULES HAVE CHANGED. We are under a new priesthood. The rules change if one is made high priest from a different tribe.
High-Priests came from the tribe of Levi. Jesus Christ, our new High Priest came from the tribe of Judah. Therefore, the rules have changed. Read it for yourself in Hebrews 7. He ushered in an eternal priesthood which we are now apart of, not an earthly one that is dependent upon man's folly.

Amen, and again I say - Amen

watchinginawe
Nov 18th 2008, 03:18 PM
The "key" is not to teach the tithe whatsoever ! It has 'nothing' to do with the heart in any way, form or fashion !

You can not teach the tithe in any manner, shape or form, that it does not cause a stumbling block !

Eventually people will strive to eventually give a tithe. < This "is not" the heart of giving !!:hmm: I don't know, that seems tantamount to saying we should not teach about sin in any manner, shape or form, so as not to cause a stumbling block.

Teach giving. I agree with that. Jesus suggested giving everything at one point. Does that eventually encourage everyone to strive to give everything? Would that cause one to stumble?

Just some thoughts.

God Bless!

Mysteryman
Nov 18th 2008, 03:42 PM
:hmm: I don't know, that seems tantamount to saying we should not teach about sin in any manner, shape or form, so as not to cause a stumbling block.

Teach giving. I agree with that. Jesus suggested giving everything at one point. Does that eventually encourage everyone to strive to give everything? Would that cause one to stumble?

Just some thoughts.

God Bless!

If their wealth is their stumbling block, then, yes, tell them to give everything that makes them wealthy , give it away. For some their wealth is not a stumbling block. But for "most" it is !

Tell them to try living without their wealth as their means by which they strive towards God. Tell them to not use one penny of their wealth.

If they stuggle with this, then they need to release that which makes for their stumbling block.

Slug1
Nov 18th 2008, 04:47 PM
When you say, that you do not care how God uses the money. The bottom line is, is that you don't care !

God has given us His Word, and "He" does care how the money is used !Dude, once the money I have put in the offering chest is out of my hand, it's in Gods... I don't care what is done with it any longer. I don't challenge the pastor where and how it's being used, I don't read the financial reports that are provided 1/4ly by the church or if I was to ask, would be provided immediately for my inspection.

It's God's and He can use it anyway He wants and since I have absolutley no control once it's out of my hand... even if the pastor was to use it wrong, that's between him and God. God will take him down for that sin in His time if such a pastor was to fail to heed conviction, I don't get in the way of that either ;)

Yes, the bottom line is I don't care, glad we agree on this atleast. :lol:

Let me refrase if it will help... It's not my concern since it's not money in my control any longer. It's in direct control of God once it leaves my hand so I have no concern for it any longer.

Slug1
Nov 18th 2008, 04:52 PM
What of the person who cannot save hardly anything and barely makes ends meet paycheck to paycheck?Do as the widow did and give out of what you have even if all that is, is a buck... and be a blessing greater then what the rich give out of their surplus of cash.

karenoka27
Nov 18th 2008, 05:16 PM
I agree with Slug. I was in a church where I gave what I could on Sunday. They had a midweek offering and I would give whatever I had left, since payday was the next day.
Ended up that the pastor was misusing the offering money for his own purpose.
I gave the money to God. I stand accountable to Him for what I gave not for how it was used.
This Pastor stands accountable before God as to how it was used.

Mysteryman
Nov 18th 2008, 05:18 PM
Dude, once the money I have put in the offering chest is out of my hand, it's in Gods... I don't care what is done with it any longer. I don't challenge the pastor where and how it's being used, I don't read the financial reports that are provided 1/4ly by the church or if I was to ask, would be provided immediately for my inspection.

It's God's and He can use it anyway He wants and since I have absolutley no control once it's out of my hand... even if the pastor was to use it wrong, that's between him and God. God will take him down for that sin in His time if such a pastor was to fail to heed conviction, I don't get in the way of that either ;)

Yes, the bottom line is I don't care, glad we agree on this atleast. :lol:

Let me refrase if it will help... It's not my concern since it's not money in my control any longer. It's in direct control of God once it leaves my hand so I have no concern for it any longer.
My point was this > We should care ! And we should care as to what the Word of God tells us to care about ! The church. Not some pastor who has no idea what to do with it. Not some building , and its heat nor its repair of its roof or etc. The Word of God tells us to care for the spiritual as well as the literal needs of the church.

My point is > If we say we love God, we should care "for the church !

Veretax
Nov 18th 2008, 05:34 PM
I am rather puzzled. Every church I've been in, the Pastor has only a little authority over the money that is brought in. IN the church I grew up in the Session and Deacons had certain areas they had to administer, and the Corporation of the Church would approve budgets yearly. In the one I am in now, the Pastor does have a fund set aside for general ministerial issues (like helping people who are poor), but he by no means manages all of the Church Finances. I'm not sure why some people think the Pastor should be managing all that Money.

karenoka27
Nov 18th 2008, 05:36 PM
Pastors should not be in charge of the money. Unfortunately, in my situation the pastor was. It is not the norm.
However, keep in mind that the pastor himself will stand or fall before God in what he does with the tithe that came into the church.

Slug1
Nov 18th 2008, 06:01 PM
My point was this > We should care ! And we should care as to what the Word of God tells us to care about ! The church. Not some pastor who has no idea what to do with it. Not some building , and its heat nor its repair of its roof or etc. The Word of God tells us to care for the spiritual as well as the literal needs of the church.

My point is > If we say we love God, we should care "for the church !
You mean Body of Christ? I do care to be in the will of God and that is why I offer my money. After that it's in God's hands to use as He wills it to be used. How He uses it, doesn't concern me. Besides, who am I to be concerned how He wills the flow of the finances of the chruch I do attend?

I do have influence and I know that... I can make a motion at our leadership meetings on a bill payment, new cellphone, advertising, increase or decrease funding to a ministry etc. But when I boil it down, the money goes where and how God wants it to go or be used. This week I plan to make a motion for advertising on the internet if it gets OKed, it was God's will, if it doesn't get OKed, it wasn't in God's will.

Mysteryman
Nov 18th 2008, 06:33 PM
You mean Body of Christ? I do care to be in the will of God and that is why I offer my money. After that it's in God's hands to use as He wills it to be used. How He uses it, doesn't concern me. Besides, who am I to be concerned how He wills the flow of the finances of the chruch I do attend?

I do have influence and I know that... I can make a motion at our leadership meetings on a bill payment, new cellphone, advertising, increase or decrease funding to a ministry etc. But when I boil it down, the money goes where and how God wants it to go or be used. This week I plan to make a motion for advertising on the internet if it gets OKed, it was God's will, if it doesn't get OKed, it wasn't in God's will.

I want you to know, that I am trying to be "kind" to you.

None of those things mentioned about 'your' church are any concern of God whatsoever ! In fact, God is against it !

Here is why - Read I Corinth. 12:14 - 27

Now, when your done reading that, Read II Corinth. chapter 8 all of it.

If these verses are not enough, I can give you more to read along the same lines of thought.

GitRDunn
Nov 18th 2008, 10:18 PM
Going on with this discussion, it should be understood that one who appears to argue against tithing as a general practice is most likely in reality arguing against the strict enforcement of tithing. I'm not against tithing in general, but to put more emphasis on whether or not to tithe than on the unity of the faith of believers is wrong according to Pauline teachings.

Therefore, if one demands a tithe from a believer in a way that it causes a internal struggle in his faith, it is wrong. If another's faith leads him to tithe and one tries to prevent him from doing so stating that he doesn't have to or even shouldn't, it is also wrong. The key is not to play the stumbling block.

A similar situation happened in a controversy in the early church about eating meat because one may unknowingly purchase meat in the market that has been sacrificed to an idol.

"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' " So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men."
Romans 14:1-18

For the record, Paul agreed with the "enlightened" view that an idol was a non-entity and that meat sacrificed to it is fine to eat. Nevertheless, he condemned those who caused those of "weaker" faith to stumble by not considering their faith. Paul addressed not so much the interpretation of laws than a lack of love.

Every Christian person who I know is in debt tithes. Not ONE is even close to getting out of debt. It is a heresy that has crippled too many of my friends.

One of my friends suddenly was free from the sick mentallity when God clearly spoke to her 'Do not tithe'. It shook her and she enquired to me, a pastor and another close friends. She is free from it and is now grateful that she no longer does it. To another three of my close friends, it is actually a mental sickness. Another friend is realising that he has to stop otherwise he will never be able to pay off his debts.

I've taken the approach before giving a whole bunch of scriptures, but that doesn't seem to to work, as those who are proud of their works showcase what little they know anyway and then the discussion goes no where.

I'll give you a true story that happened to me last year.
I volunteered to help out a conference that hosted Benny Hinn and I was an usher. He spoke on 'tithing and giving sacrificially'. His message was a complete contradiction and wasted an hour and a half of everyones time.

Then he asked an amazing question. "How many people are in debt? Raise your hands."

I expected maybe a third to a half of the room may put their hands up. I was in a building that was filled with over 3000 people. I did not see one person keep there hand down. I would say that 95% of the people in that room who gave 'sacrificially' and 'tithed' were in debt. And I mean huge debt! People started putting down their hands as Hinn said "Over $20,000... $30,000... $50,000... $100,000. More then half the room still had there hands up.

I was sick. I had to collect the tithes of thousands of people WHO HAD NO MONEY. Those who gave in 'faith', had no money.The tithe is unbiblical and does not work. I have seen the extent of it's crippling power over so many Christian's lives. Be free of it and give freely when free of debt. We are called to good stewards, not blind givers.

According to 'Pauline Teaching', he would consider the 'tithe' doctrine an 'another gospel'. The key to not play the stumbling block is to recognise it for what it is and then remove it so those don't stumble over it. Then there is nothing to stumble over. Your use of Paul 'condemning' those of 'weaker' faith to stumble is slightly wrong. He was highlighting the different ethnic groups that enforced their cultural beliefs into what they thought God considered to be right and wrong.

The reason why the Tithing heresy was bought in was the same reason the Roman Catholic Church bought it in, to keep building church buildings. The same way the RCC did not care for the common person back then centuries ago with their doctrines is very similar the way Pentecostal churches behave in terms of putting buildings first, doctrinal truth somewhere in the middle-last, people last.

I know. I've been. I've seen. I've forgiven those who preach it. But I cannot be silent on these issues that are severely destroying many Christian's lives. This is not good stewardship of finances.

If it has not been declared on BibleForums yet, I'll say it:
Jesus NEVER tithed.
Mary and Joseph NEVER tithed.
The Apostle Paul NEVER tithed.
The Apostle Peter NEVER tithed.
The Apostle John NEVER tithed.
The Tax Collector Matthew NEVER tithed.

Jesus NEVER preached on the tithe.
The writer of Hebrews speaks how the tithe is NO MORE because THE RULES HAVE CHANGED. We are under a new priesthood. The rules change if one is made high priest from a different tribe.
High-Priests came from the tribe of Levi. Jesus Christ, our new High Priest came from the tribe of Judah. Therefore, the rules have changed. Read it for yourself in Hebrews 7. He ushered in an eternal priesthood which we are now apart of, not an earthly one that is dependent upon man's folly.
You three said it all and I couldn't add any to it. You guys put my opinions very well and make amazing points.

Mysteryman
Nov 18th 2008, 10:50 PM
You three said it all and I couldn't add any to it. You guys put my opinions very well and make amazing points.

These comments tell you "why not to give"

Now you need to learn as to "why to give" and for "what purpose of God".

IN Christ - M M

theLogos
Nov 18th 2008, 11:34 PM
I figured I would just jump in here and give my humble opinion. It's clear in the OT that tithing is taught and commanded but I cannot find anywhere in the NT that requires christians to tithe. Basically, it seems to me that no christian should be made to give a tithe to their church. Now, having said that I believe a true believer not only will give but will want give a tithe and will do so joyfully. If anything I believe God would not want you to give unless you really mean it from your heart. God does not want something from you that's forced. If you will not give freely than God will find someone who will and reward them for their selflessness(not in the sense that all these prosperity teachers preach).

chad
Nov 18th 2008, 11:47 PM
I no longer give to TV Evangalists. They say god needs your money, then they go buy themselves a $25,000 watch, multi-million dollar houses and $500,000+ salaries. I now only give to the needy in the body of Christ.


Chad :rolleyes:



My view is nothing short of only being biblical. I 'see' no records within the Word of God showing us any examples of how to spend in the church, other than the example I have shown from "scripture" !

All else is man made doctorines. Excuses, reasons for, etc, etc. We even have television ministries giving us their private interpretations, without anyone questioning their authority to give such reasons for what they spew out of their mouths !

I just saw on TV the other day, that if you want to get out of "debt", for you to go in debt with your credit card, so that God can bring you out of debt.

Did you just read what I just wrote ? Go in debt because you need to get out of debt . God tells us to give out of what we have and not out of what we have not. So why would any ministry tell someone who is in debt, to go in debt ?

Some ministries tell people, that they help pay for TV time to over the world, to evangilize. What a lie, as far as the Word of God is concerned ! First, that is not what giving your money is "for". Second, if you have a knowledge of the truth, you "would know", that apostles, prophets, teachers, evangilists, and pastors are given "unto the church". Just read Ephesians 4:10 thru 15. The church is responsible to be "ambassadors" for Christ, not evangilists ! So giving to TV ministries is dead wrong ! And, these ministers are teaching lies . I have also seen them say on TV, that if you give a love offering, this book is free. What a bunch of ----- !

The book is not free. Try to get it without giving a love offering !

You will find out just how free this book is. Some of them do give certain material away free. But there is a hidden motive ! Its called - The tithe ! One or two weeks of your tithe and they will be making a substantial profit. After that it is all gravy.

Mysteryman
Nov 19th 2008, 12:15 AM
I no longer give to TV Evangalists. They say god needs your money, then they go buy themselves a $25,000 watch, multi-million dollar houses and $500,000+ salaries. I now only give to the needy in the body of Christ.


Chad :rolleyes:
Amen - Chad

You searched the scriptures to see if that which is true or not. You found the truth, and by your faith you apply your faith according to the scriptures .

GitRDunn
Nov 19th 2008, 12:28 AM
These comments tell you "why not to give"

Now you need to learn as to "why to give" and for "what purpose of God".

IN Christ - M M
Actually, in my opinion they say how to give. They are saying that if you can't give a tithe without giving up a necessity of life, then don't tithe, give what you can and give it to the glory of God and gladly give it and God will accept it and be pleased by it and use it to great effectiveness. If you are able and want to tithe, then gladly do so and mean it, don't get into the rut that many do where they tithe just so that they can say they tithed, but in reality they resent having to do so or don't do so joyfully. It needs to be more than a routine, it needs to be you joyfully giving what you are able to every week and giving it to the Glory of God because you want to, not because you have to. Also, as for the "what purposes", if you aren't able to monetarily give as much as some others, then find another way to use your God given talents to help others, whether it be teaching Sunday School or Children’s church classes, or cooking for church meals, or being part of a prayer chain, etc. It is just as important for Christians to give in these kinds of ways as it is to give monetarily to the church. It is between one person and God, they need to pray about it and if they can't afford to tithe, God will lead them to another way to serve/outlet to give through.

Biastai
Nov 19th 2008, 03:40 AM
The "key" is not to teach the tithe whatsoever ! It has 'nothing' to do with the heart in any way, form or fashion !

You can not teach the tithe in any manner, shape or form, that it does not cause a stumbling block !

Eventually people will strive to eventually give a tithe. < This "is not" the heart of giving !!

I do agree with you that it is almost impossible (I would say totally impossible, but you never know, you know?) to teach tithe. If one could do it, he'd have to be most tactful person in the history of the world. Its just too hard (seems impossible to me, but again... you never know) to present in a way that doesn't offend. At best, the tithe can be suggested albeit very tactfully. In my post, I never supported teaching it. Believe me, I've heard my share of sermons on tithing growing up in the Korean church. But...

What if a believer has genuinely decided that 10% is what he wishes to give? Are you going to try to stand in his way? Aren't you yourself putting forth the stumbling block? The believer's faith is to come first; the tithe itself is just a scruple. Just because someone wants to tithe, it doesn't mean he's advocating the Roman Catholics building cathedrals everywhere.

Veretax
Nov 19th 2008, 03:46 AM
I do agree with you that it is almost impossible (I would say totally impossible, but you never know, you know?) to teach tithe. If one could do it, he'd have to be most tactful person in the history of the world. Its just too hard (seems impossible to me, but again... you never know) to present in a way that doesn't offend. At best, the tithe can be suggested albeit very tactfully. In my post, I never supported teaching it. Believe me, I've heard my share of sermons on tithing growing up in the Korean church. But...

What if a believer has genuinely decided that 10% is what he wishes to give? Are you going to try to stand in his way? Aren't you yourself putting forth the stumbling block? The believer's faith is to come first; the tithe itself is just a scruple. Just because someone wants to tithe, it doesn't mean he's advocating the Roman Catholics building cathedrals everywhere.

The pastor that used to be at the church I attended before moving here, preached that a tithe was always 10% of the increase. Not 10% of net or gross, he said that doesn't matter. God made certain promises and he provides us employ to provide us the things we need to have, but it was under him that I first heard the idea that the tithe was 10% of the increase.

Think back to biblical times a shephered has 100 sheep. Say ten new are born one year. A tithe would be 1 of the ten new sheep, not 11 of the 110 sheep. At least that's how I understood what he was saying, but I'm fumbling for words at this late hour in trying to explain the illustration he used, it was almost 5 years ago too.

Biastai
Nov 19th 2008, 04:07 AM
According to 'Pauline Teaching', he would consider the 'tithe' doctrine an 'another gospel'. The key to not play the stumbling block is to recognise it for what it is and then remove it so those don't stumble over it. Then there is nothing to stumble over. Your use of Paul 'condemning' those of 'weaker' faith to stumble is slightly wrong. He was highlighting the different ethnic groups that enforced their cultural beliefs into what they thought God considered to be right and wrong.


I don't think the "other gospel" (you mean the law, right?) needs to be removed. If a believer chooses to follow parts of the law, he may. What he may not do is to compel other believers to do so unwillingly or teaching that they must do what the law says to "prove their faith" or to be included among God's people. Paul never was against Jewish Christians who got circumcised. If a Jew was circumcised on the 8th day, what could he have done about it anyway? He was against those who gave in to the compulsion to be circumcised by the Judaizers and the Judaizers themselves.

Paul respected differences in standards (as long as one kept them to himself!) which did not conflict with his teachings about Christ. As you see from these verses, none of the following differences of opinion are prohibited.

"The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. "
Romans 14:3

"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."
Romans 14:5,6

If we were to promote removal of the Torah, then we wouldn't be able to do anything it says. The stumbling block principle works both ways. If one knows he is free from the law but still wants to tithe simply because he wants to do so, what's the problem? Someone forcing a "don't tithe because that's a different gospel" teaching onto him is now the one presenting the stumbling block. The roles are simply reversed.

Biastai
Nov 19th 2008, 04:33 AM
The pastor that used to be at the church I attended before moving here, preached that a tithe was always 10% of the increase. Not 10% of net or gross, he said that doesn't matter. God made certain promises and he provides us employ to provide us the things we need to have, but it was under him that I first heard the idea that the tithe was 10% of the increase.

Think back to biblical times a shephered has 100 sheep. Say ten new are born one year. A tithe would be 1 of the ten new sheep, not 11 of the 110 sheep. At least that's how I understood what he was saying, but I'm fumbling for words at this late hour in trying to explain the illustration he used, it was almost 5 years ago too.

Thanks for the input. That's quite a relief for the one wishing to tithe. I'd imagine giving a tenth of your total assets each time tithing would be rather brutal!

Veretax
Nov 19th 2008, 12:58 PM
Thanks for the input. That's quite a relief for the one wishing to tithe. I'd imagine giving a tenth of your total assets each time tithing would be rather brutal!


The only problem I have and the thing I always struggle with is then figuring out which things God promised to provide that I should make sure I provide for my family. Some things would be obvious.


Housing
Water
Heating
Electricity
Food
Gasoline

But others are debatable.

Telephone
TV
Internet
Retirment
Savings
Other want's and needs

I also believer that there is a principle in scripture that God wants us to redeem our debts and then live without them as much as is possible, so because of that I've been working hard to pay my debts off as fast as I can (on our 8th year doing it), so that I can free more of my income for his service.

I think each believer has to decide what is a 'need' and what is not. in those debatable believers, because such things really didn't exist back in the days of the Apostles at least not the first 3 I mentioned.

So That is where I struggle presently over whether certain things are a need or a want. For me the internet is highly necessary due to my job in the Computer Industry, and it is my best way to stay in touch with family and friends who live far away from me. I happen to get it through my Telephone service, which I've got on a flat rate unlimited plan so that becomes useful too. In any case, This is how I give. Sometimes I give more than a 10th of that which increases us, and sometimes its a bit less, but I always give hoping that the Lord will use it mightily, and with a cheerful heart, and that I believe is what the NT preaches most on the subject.

Biastai
Nov 19th 2008, 05:31 PM
The only problem I have and the thing I always struggle with is then figuring out which things God promised to provide that I should make sure I provide for my family. Some things would be obvious.


Housing
Water
Heating
Electricity
Food
Gasoline

But others are debatable.

Telephone
TV
Internet
Retirment
Savings
Other want's and needs

I also believer that there is a principle in scripture that God wants us to redeem our debts and then live without them as much as is possible, so because of that I've been working hard to pay my debts off as fast as I can (on our 8th year doing it), so that I can free more of my income for his service.

I think each believer has to decide what is a 'need' and what is not. in those debatable believers, because such things really didn't exist back in the days of the Apostles at least not the first 3 I mentioned.

So That is where I struggle presently over whether certain things are a need or a want. For me the internet is highly necessary due to my job in the Computer Industry, and it is my best way to stay in touch with family and friends who live far away from me. I happen to get it through my Telephone service, which I've got on a flat rate unlimited plan so that becomes useful too. In any case, This is how I give. Sometimes I give more than a 10th of that which increases us, and sometimes its a bit less, but I always give hoping that the Lord will use it mightily, and with a cheerful heart, and that I believe is what the NT preaches most on the subject.

I wish you the best in your management of what God has given you. Its a matter about which I feel particularly strongly due to the things I've heard and seen in my experiences in my church and culture. I don't want to go into details, but I've seen plenty of practices which keep well-meaning people in debt. Our gospel is about freedom, not bondage.

As for the NT passages (I assume you mean Paul's letters?), most if not all of them refer to the "collection for God's people" in 1 Cor 16:1-4 (not a tithe). It was a freewill offering made to the poor in Jerusalem. It seemed to be the only charge laid on Paul by the Jerusalem church according to Gal 2:10.

"James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do."
Galatians 2:9,10

Again Paul's concern here was unity of the faith. Most likely, he was disturbed by the apparent break between the Jewish and Gentile ministry following the dispute at Antioch described again in Galatians 2. As a result, Paul devoted much energy to this collection during his ministry in hopes to heal the breach between the two communities of believers. While one can question Paul trying to do it with money, his intention and the motives in his heart are rather clear.

If you've prayed to the Lord about giving and completely sincere about it which you certainly seem to be, it is acceptable to the Lord. As long as a believer doesn't abuse his perceived freedom from the law, what is decided in his heart is ok. Some will tithe; some will give more or less. But most importantly, motives of the heart are not to be judged by man anyway. The new covenant we are under writes the law is written in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), not from commands or compulsions placed upon us externally. It doesn't start with the tithe. The tithe is a possible result of an individual's faith.

Mysteryman
Nov 19th 2008, 05:56 PM
I wish you the best in your management of what God has given you. Its a matter about which I feel particularly strongly due to the things I've heard and seen in my experiences in my church and culture. I don't want to go into details, but I've seen plenty of practices which keep well-meaning people in debt. Our gospel is about freedom, not bondage.

As for the NT passages (I assume you mean Paul's letters?), most if not all of them refer to the "collection for God's people" in 1 Cor 16:1-4 (not a tithe). It was a freewill offering made to the poor in Jerusalem. It seemed to be the only charge laid on Paul by the Jerusalem church according to Gal 2:10.

"James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do."
Galatians 2:9,10

Again Paul's concern here was unity of the faith. Most likely, he was disturbed by the apparent break between the Jewish and Gentile ministry following the dispute at Antioch described again in Galatians 2. As a result, Paul devoted much energy to this collection during his ministry in hopes to heal the breach between the two communities of believers. While one can question Paul trying to do it with money, his intention and the motives in his heart are rather clear.

If you've prayed to the Lord about giving and completely sincere about it which you certainly seem to be, it is acceptable to the Lord. As long as a believer doesn't abuse his perceived freedom from the law, what is decided in his heart is ok. Some will tithe; some will give more or less. But most importantly, motives of the heart are not to be judged by man anyway. The new covenant we are under writes the law is written in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), not from commands or compulsions placed upon us externally. It doesn't start with the tithe. The tithe is a possible result of an individual's faith.
I agree !

But I want to emphasis that the amount of giving should never be described as a tithe ! It should "always" be described as the heart of giving, and nothing should be mentioned about the amount of giving, ever !

Giving with a purpose is of the utmost importance. That purpose should line up with the scriptures, Which are to give to those who have need. So that there is equality. The one that had much had none left over, and the one that lacked , had no needs, so that there is equality. The "equality" of giving , is such, that everyone's needs are met. After that, there is no "need" to give ! If everyone's needs are met, then giving is not needed. Usually there is a need within the body of Christ. But the need changes from time to time depending on circumstances. Also, giving is also unto other churches who believe the same way ! Giving is an example of loving one another. In fact, it would be great to see a church give unto another church that does not know or understand the heart of giving to one another, unto the cares of the body of Christ.

chad
Nov 19th 2008, 06:57 PM
I am now a believer that if a preaher - preachers that we should be tithing according to what is written about tithing in the old testament , I want that preacher to be sacrificing animals on my behalf, for forgiveness of sins.

Thats what the tithe was used for to support the priesthood who did this as thier service to god - according to the old testament.

It would raise a few eye-brows, not to mention alot of controversy - beucase it would be unbiblical according to new testament teaching. They still want the tithe money, but they don't want to do animal sacrifice - for forgiveness of sins?



Chad :rolleyes:

GitRDunn
Nov 21st 2008, 11:07 PM
I am now a believer that if a preaher - preachers that we should be tithing according to what is written about tithing in the old testament , I want that preacher to be sacrificing animals on my behalf, for forgiveness of sins.

Thats what the tithe was used for to support the priesthood who did this as thier service to god - according to the old testament.

It would raise a few eye-brows, not to mention alot of controversy - beucase it would be unbiblical according to new testament teaching. They still want the tithe money, but they don't want to do animal sacrifice - for forgiveness of sins?



Chad :rolleyes:
Very interesting point.

Butch5
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:16 AM
You mean Body of Christ? I do care to be in the will of God and that is why I offer my money. After that it's in God's hands to use as He wills it to be used. How He uses it, doesn't concern me. Besides, who am I to be concerned how He wills the flow of the finances of the chruch I do attend?

I do have influence and I know that... I can make a motion at our leadership meetings on a bill payment, new cellphone, advertising, increase or decrease funding to a ministry etc. But when I boil it down, the money goes where and how God wants it to go or be used. This week I plan to make a motion for advertising on the internet if it gets OKed, it was God's will, if it doesn't get OKed, it wasn't in God's will.

You don't feel it is your responsibility to make sure the money is used properly???

How about using it to feed the poor, clothe the naked, take care of widows, visit those who are sick and in prison?

Slug1
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:31 AM
You don't feel it is your responsibility to make sure the money is used properly???

How about using it to feed the poor, clothe the naked, take care of widows, visit those who are sick and in prison?All those motions are made and seconded for the ministries of our church... like I said, God is in control of the money, not me. Once it's out of my hands the Holy Spirit tells us where to use it.

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 01:29 AM
I am now a believer that if a preaher - preachers that we should be tithing according to what is written about tithing in the old testament , I want that preacher to be sacrificing animals on my behalf, for forgiveness of sins.

Thats what the tithe was used for to support the priesthood who did this as thier service to god - according to the old testament.

It would raise a few eye-brows, not to mention alot of controversy - beucase it would be unbiblical according to new testament teaching. They still want the tithe money, but they don't want to do animal sacrifice - for forgiveness of sins?



Chad :rolleyes:

They also must enter into the Holy presence of God for you, because only the priests could do this. But preaching these kinds of things would turn people off from tithing. It's better to preach the robbing God stuff, it makes more money.;)

chad
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:34 AM
Interesting point. I have never thought about it this way. I guess the opposite of robbing God is - 'Fleecing the flock'. At least thats what I have have heard some people describe it as. ;)


Chad :rolleyes:



They also must enter into the Holy presence of God for you, because only the priests could do this. But preaching these kinds of things would turn people off from tithing. It's better to preach the robbing God stuff, it makes more money.;)

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:43 AM
Interesting point. I have never thought about it this way. I guess the opposite of robbing God is - 'Fleecing the flock'. At least thats what I have have heard some people describe it as. ;)


Chad :rolleyes:

You got it.

Paul told us to give not out of a grudging obligation or necessity(give to get), but out of a cheerful and purposeful heart(2 Cor 9:5-7). 10% or else we rob God, is not only obligation giving, but it is also sparingly giving. Bountiful giving is much more then a mere 10% of anything we have, and it is done out of love, not obligation.

looking4jesus
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:48 AM
You got it.

Paul told us to give not out of a grudging obligation or necessity(give to get), but out of a cheerful and purposeful heart(2 Cor 9:5-7). 10% or else we rob God, is not only obligation giving, but it is also sparingly giving. Bountiful giving is much more then a mere 10% of anything we have, and it is done out of love, not obligation.

I also look at the 10% of my time for prayer and church, etc.
God Bless
Randy

chad
Nov 23rd 2008, 08:27 AM
After reading 1 Corinthians today, I have a new respect for Paul as an Apostle and Barnabas. They worked to support themselves, while doing the work of God, even though they had the right to support from the church.

(1 Cor 9:6 NIV) Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living?

Even though Paul and barnabas had a right to be supported, they did not put this burden on the church. (1 Cor 9:7-14)

(1 Cor 9:15 NIV) But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me. I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast.

(1 Cor 9:18 NIV) What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it.


(1 Cor 9:19 NIV) Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.

(2 Cor 12:15 NIV) So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less?

(2 Cor 12:17 NIV) Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent you?

(2 Cor 12:18 NIV) I urged Titus to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not act in the same spirit and follow the same course?


It's a little different, than what we see preached today. I don't think I have ever heard a sermon preached on those verses.


Chad :rolleyes:




You got it.

Paul told us to give not out of a grudging obligation or necessity(give to get), but out of a cheerful and purposeful heart(2 Cor 9:5-7). 10% or else we rob God, is not only obligation giving, but it is also sparingly giving. Bountiful giving is much more then a mere 10% of anything we have, and it is done out of love, not obligation.

Firstfruits
Nov 23rd 2008, 12:40 PM
You got it.

Paul told us to give not out of a grudging obligation or necessity(give to get), but out of a cheerful and purposeful heart(2 Cor 9:5-7). 10% or else we rob God, is not only obligation giving, but it is also sparingly giving. Bountiful giving is much more then a mere 10% of anything we have, and it is done out of love, not obligation.

I am not sure if those that claim to tithe according to scripture understand that It was to be done once every three years;

Deut 26:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

That means that for two years the tithe belongs to you and your family.

Those that accuse those that do not tithe of robbing God, yet do not tithe according to the will/command of God are themselves being disobedient to God.

Now wouldn't that be intersting for those that teach tithing if they only got a 10% once every three years according to Gods will.

Firstfruits