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mikebr
Nov 17th 2008, 09:07 PM
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.






What would be the difference in the actions of one of these Gentiles and todays Christians?

Walstib
Nov 17th 2008, 10:16 PM
Assuming the actions done are in love...

One acts influenced by their unregenerate spirit, the other influenced by their new spirit in communion with the Holy Spirit.

as a side note... Love is love is love

Me thinks,

Joe

mikebr
Nov 17th 2008, 11:08 PM
Assuming the actions done are in love...

One acts influenced by their unregenerate spirit, the other influenced by their new spirit in communion with the Holy Spirit.

as a side note... Love is love is love

Me thinks,

Joe


Who would you say wrote the law on their hearts?

Who gives them the ability to keep said law?

Walstib
Nov 17th 2008, 11:50 PM
The way I read it they have the work of the law written on their heart and not the law itself compared to the regenerate who have the law itself written on their heart.

So you say who wrote the work of the law on their heart....

My first thought is that they themselves did. Like saying they made the decision that loving their child was the right thing to do and became convicted of it.

I think they have the free will to love the child or not though in the end God gives us the ability to do anything. In this instance just giving us the ability to make our own decisions and act on them. Decide what our personal convictions are.

Thanks for making me think.

Joe

drew
Nov 18th 2008, 12:23 AM
Who would you say wrote the law on their hearts?

Who gives them the ability to keep said law?
The Holy Spirit has written the law on their hearts. This text from Romans 2 describes Gentile believers - this is not a text about people in general having a sense of moral right and wrong.

The Romans 2 text is a fulfillment of the following covenant renewal passage from Deuteronomy 30 that Paul quotes from in Romans 10:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it

Romans 8 also makes the case that it is the Spirit that effectively writes the law on the heart of the believer.

mikebr
Nov 18th 2008, 12:43 AM
The Holy Spirit has written the law on their hearts. This text from Romans 2 describes Gentile believers - this is not a text about people in general having a sense of moral right and wrong.

The Romans 2 text is a fulfillment of the following covenant renewal passage from Deuteronomy 30 that Paul quotes from in Romans 10:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it

Romans 8 also makes the case that it is the Spirit that effectively writes the law on the heart of the believer.


These were Gentiles without the Law presumably before Christ. I agree with you Drew. We may however draw different conclusions on the matter as I believe God has written His laws on every man's heart.

Walstib
Nov 18th 2008, 12:58 AM
Then why does Jeremiah give a promise God would do it in the future? Jer 31:33

mikebr
Nov 18th 2008, 01:44 AM
Then why does Jeremiah give a promise God would do it in the future? Jer 31:33


I honestly hadn't thought of that. Are you suggesting that it is something yet to be done?

Emanate
Nov 18th 2008, 02:52 AM
I honestly hadn't thought of that. Are you suggesting that it is something yet to be done?


Actually, the writer of Hebres references Jeremiah when he says that, in Messiah, the law is written in our hearts. Yet what we see in today's christianity is not the law written on our hearts, but reasons why the law is no longer valid to the christian. The law is written in our heart, Jesus is in our heart. The law is not valid for us, what does that say about Messiah?

Biastai
Nov 18th 2008, 04:06 AM
"The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them, "
declares the LORD.
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
Jeremiah 31:31-34


"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."

Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it. "This is my blood of the covenant*, which is poured out for many," he said to them. "I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."
Mark 14:22-25, Some manuscripts have "new covenant."

Emanate
Nov 18th 2008, 04:08 AM
"The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them, "
declares the LORD.
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
Jeremiah 31:31-34


"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."

Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it. "This is my blood of the covenant*, which is poured out for many," he said to them. "I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."
Mark 14:22-25, Some manuscripts have "new covenant."


Do this in remembrance of me.........

Friend of I AM
Nov 18th 2008, 06:09 PM
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.






What would be the difference in the actions of one of these Gentiles and todays Christians?

You know I think that scripture was probably more directed towards the Gentiles who were present at the time of Paul's Epistles...who weren't well versed of Christian doctrine but lived lives in accordance with God's moral standard. So much of the law now is ingrained in the heart of man since Paul's time. The faith in Christ part is of course still applicable, I just don't think faith is always applicable and synonomous with speaking his name and professing that one has faith in him. Think of the Centurian as a good example, that was a moral upright man who I'm sure was saved. And I'm certain there were others that Paul/Jesus encountered like this man. Sometimes one finds that those whom are closest to them and the most loving, are often those who are not within their own country/family.

In Christian Love,

Stephen

Walstib
Nov 18th 2008, 10:53 PM
I honestly hadn't thought of that. Are you suggesting that it is something yet to be done?

Ahhh time, throws a wrench into so many topics. ;)

His future but our present. I think Pentecost is the "time" this happened.

Jesus I think refers to it in John 14:17 and John 15:26

Joe

Emanate
Nov 18th 2008, 10:55 PM
Ahhh time, throws a wrench into so many topics. ;)

His future but our present. I think Pentecost is the "time" this happened.

Jesus I think refers to it in John 14:17 and John 15:26

Joe





which Pentecost?

mikebr
Nov 18th 2008, 11:09 PM
Ahhh time, throws a wrench into so many topics. ;)

His future but our present. I think Pentecost is the "time" this happened.

Jesus I think refers to it in John 14:17 and John 15:26

Joe




Makes sense to me.

Walstib
Nov 18th 2008, 11:17 PM
Hi Emanate,

I'll take the bait. Please explain what you would like to say.

Peace,

Joe

Emanate
Nov 19th 2008, 10:59 PM
Hi Emanate,

I'll take the bait. Please explain what you would like to say.

Peace,

Joe


Well, the first Pentecost was at Mt. Sinai, so I was just looking for a distinction.

Walstib
Nov 20th 2008, 01:26 AM
Emanate,

I was thinking today you may have meant festivals at other points in time. I thought my references to the verses from John explained which one I meant.

I was hoping for some rich symbolism that the ones in the past had shadowed concerning the one I believe Jesus was referring to or something.

Peace,
Joe

Emanate
Nov 20th 2008, 12:39 PM
Emanate,

I was thinking today you may have meant festivals at other points in time. I thought my references to the verses from John explained which one I meant.

I was hoping for some rich symbolism that the ones in the past had shadowed concerning the one I believe Jesus was referring to or something.

Peace,
Joe


Actually, it is quite amazing the smilarities found in the first pentecost and the one mentioned in Acts.

kenrank
Nov 20th 2008, 04:32 PM
What would be the difference in the actions of one of these Gentiles and todays Christians?

Mike, I didn't read every post, (somebody may have pointed this out) but the word gentile, in can mean any of a few things. In Romans 2:9 (last word) it seems to be talking about Greek speaking people as the word "Hellēn" ( Ἕλλην) is used. But in the verse you cite, the Greek word "ethnos" ( ἔθνος) is used. Ethnos can mean Gentile, heathen, a partuclar race, a nation, etc. It can also mean "anyone who is not a Jew." Remember, God showed Peter through a vision of food that "people" whom God had made clean were not to be considered unclean.

Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The trouble is, and the reason I wanted to post...many Christians think of themselves as gentiles. This is not the case anymore...we were, but we are not now. In Ephesians 2, Paul writes that in times past we were Gentiles in the flesh, he goes on to say we were aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel and now through faith are considered fellow citizens.

I know that all was slightly off topic, but I wanted to make sure you knew, that if you have faith in Yahushua (Jesus), that through him you are not an alien of Israel, you are a fellow citizen.

Peace.
ken

Walstib
Nov 21st 2008, 01:32 AM
Emanate

I got thinking today about how you said "first Pentecost". I started thinking about whether it was before or after "the law" was given. What was going on the fifty days after the first passover in Egypt? Neat topic to start a thread on I think.

Peace
Joe

Emanate
Nov 21st 2008, 02:54 AM
Emanate

I got thinking today about how you said "first Pentecost". I started thinking about whether it was before or after "the law" was given. What was going on the fifty days after the first passover in Egypt? Neat topic to start a thread on I think.

Peace
Joe


Perhaps you are right, because the first pentecost happened fifty days after leaving Egypt, when the Torah was given to this newly redeemed people.