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Partaker of Christ
Nov 17th 2008, 11:33 PM
What the world does with copyright, the world does. Yes we have to and must observe that law.

Should the Church, and those within the Church, 'copyright'?
I think what many in the Church fail to see, is that 'copyright' is atheistic in its claims.

Copyright says 'I' am the rights holder, the creator, the author, the originator of that work.

In it's true sense:
Copyright denies the True Creator, the True Originator, and the True Author.
Copyright denies God, and denies Him His Glory.

Those who are in the Church, and claim copyright © have by the legal definition, claimed that right illegally.

If my father built something for me, and I am given that gift, can I legally claim to be the creator, the author, the originator of that gift?

I know some would say about costs and time etc involved, but it really does not have to cost a great deal today. With the internet it is very easy to distribute words, and music and movie.

Tell me, how many unbelievers are going to pay hard earned money, to buy that book or buy that cd to listen to that song?

Don't you see how copyright limits what God can do through you. It limits God reaching and touching the unbeliever through you.

paidforinfull
Nov 17th 2008, 11:45 PM
What the world does with copyright, the world does. Yes we have to and must observe that law.

Should the Church, and those within the Church, 'copyright'?
I think what many in the Church fail to see, is that 'copyright' is atheistic in its claims.

Copyright says 'I' am the rights holder, the creator, the author, the originator of that work.

In it's true sense:
Copyright denies the True Creator, the True Originator, and the True Author.
Copyright denies God, and denies Him His Glory.

Those who are in the Church, and claim copyright © have by the legal definition, claimed that right illegally.

If my father built something for me, and I am given that gift, can I legally claim to be the creator, the author, the originator of that gift?

I know some would say about costs and time etc involved, but it really does not have to cost a great deal today. With the internet it is very easy to distribute words, and music and movie.

Tell me, how many unbelievers are going to pay hard earned money, to buy that book or buy that cd to listen to that song?

Don't you see how copyright limits what God can do through you. It limits God reaching and touching the unbeliever through you.

Copyright protects the authors from being plagiarised (yes, this does happen!) or their worked being changed by others. This doesn't mean that the Church can't use material that has been copyrighted, simply that, in some cases, permission is needed before it can be used.

Many Christians authors/poets (myself included) give permission before-hand that poems may be used by churches etc. without said institutions/individuals having to request it first.

Before I published my poems on the web I consulted a laywer who strongly advised me to take the necessary precaution (copyright), since we don't live in a perfect world.

Are you aware that the Bible is copyrighted?

God bless

flybaby
Nov 17th 2008, 11:45 PM
I can see what you are saying, but copyright does not necessarily mean that we have to charge for something. In fact, it is just the opposite, copyright ensures that I have the right to offer whatever I have made with God's help free of charge to anyone I want to.

If I wrote a book and then I didn't copyright it, anyone in the world would be able to claim my material as their own and profit from it. However, if I copyright it, that can't happen and if I chose to do so, I could give away my books.

Hope this helps....

Partaker of Christ
Nov 18th 2008, 01:09 AM
Copyright protects the authors from being plagiarised (yes, this does happen!) or their worked being changed by others. This doesn't mean that the Church can't use material that has been copyrighted, simply that, in some cases, permission is needed before it can be used.

Many Christians authors/poets (myself included) give permission before-hand that poems may be used by churches etc. without said institutions/individuals having to request it first.

Before I published my poems on the web I consulted a laywer who strongly advised me to take the necessary precaution (copyright), since we don't live in a perfect world.

Are you aware that the Bible is copyrighted?

God bless

Hi paidforinfull!

Yes the bible is copyrighted (illegally) by man.
God is the creator, the author and the originator of the scriptures.

God (the True rights holder) freely gave the scriptures, for all who would read them, hear them and believe them.

If I am given the gift of miracles, and someone is healed, can I 'legally' claim to be the author, and creator of that healing?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 18th 2008, 01:13 AM
I can see what you are saying, but copyright does not necessarily mean that we have to charge for something. In fact, it is just the opposite, copyright ensures that I have the right to offer whatever I have made with God's help free of charge to anyone I want to.

If I wrote a book and then I didn't copyright it, anyone in the world would be able to claim my material as their own and profit from it. However, if I copyright it, that can't happen and if I chose to do so, I could give away my books.

Hope this helps....

Hi flybaby!

Charge or no charge, 'copyright' is an illegal claim.
Does God require us to use illegal means to protect His work?

paidforinfull
Nov 18th 2008, 01:22 AM
Hi paidforinfull!

Yes the bible is copyrighted (illegally) by man.
God is the creator, the author and the originator of the scriptures.

God (the True rights holder) freely gave the scriptures, for all who would read them, hear them and believe them.

If I am given the gift of miracles, and someone is healed, can I 'legally' claim to be the author, and creator of that healing?

You are of course entitled to your own opinion.

God bless.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 18th 2008, 02:44 AM
What the world does with copyright, the world does. Yes we have to and must observe that law.

Should the Church, and those within the Church, 'copyright'?
I think what many in the Church fail to see, is that 'copyright' is atheistic in its claims.

Copyright says 'I' am the rights holder, the creator, the author, the originator of that work.

In it's true sense:
Copyright denies the True Creator, the True Originator, and the True Author.
Copyright denies God, and denies Him His Glory.

Those who are in the Church, and claim copyright © have by the legal definition, claimed that right illegally.

If my father built something for me, and I am given that gift, can I legally claim to be the creator, the author, the originator of that gift?

I know some would say about costs and time etc involved, but it really does not have to cost a great deal today. With the internet it is very easy to distribute words, and music and movie.

Tell me, how many unbelievers are going to pay hard earned money, to buy that book or buy that cd to listen to that song?

Don't you see how copyright limits what God can do through you. It limits God reaching and touching the unbeliever through you.If somebody tried to copyright the earth or the universe, then yeah, that'd be out of bounds, but for an author or an artist to copyright a work of theirs to which they are rightfully entitled to have their income off of protected is perfectly reasonable. Even the Apostle Paul told the Corinthians not to muzzle the ox that treads the grain.

markedward
Nov 18th 2008, 02:45 AM
If my father built something for me, and I am given that gift, can I legally claim to be the creator, the author, the originator of that gift?In the Old Testament, it was God who freely gave land to His people. Yet they had boundary stones to indicate what land they owned, and at least a few of the Torah Laws were made in relation to people owning things that were freely given to them.

The Father gave people land, but He still acknowledged that those people owned it and that it could be stolen from them.

And that was something freely given to them. In which case, the people who actually put the time and work into creating something are naturally given ownership of it by the very fact that they created it, and it is thus up to them what to do with it.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 18th 2008, 02:46 AM
Hi paidforinfull!

Yes the bible is copyrighted (illegally) by man.
God is the creator, the author and the originator of the scriptures.

God (the True rights holder) freely gave the scriptures, for all who would read them, hear them and believe them.

If I am given the gift of miracles, and someone is healed, can I 'legally' claim to be the author, and creator of that healing?Modern translations are NOT copyrighting the Bible. They are copyrighting their translation of it. If you believe they are not entitled to receive income as a result of the many hours of work they put into producing that translation, then you are free to get a different translation.

BroRog
Nov 18th 2008, 03:29 AM
What the world does with copyright, the world does. Yes we have to and must observe that law.

Should the Church, and those within the Church, 'copyright'?
I think what many in the Church fail to see, is that 'copyright' is atheistic in its claims.

Copyright says 'I' am the rights holder, the creator, the author, the originator of that work.

In it's true sense:
Copyright denies the True Creator, the True Originator, and the True Author.
Copyright denies God, and denies Him His Glory.

Those who are in the Church, and claim copyright © have by the legal definition, claimed that right illegally.

If my father built something for me, and I am given that gift, can I legally claim to be the creator, the author, the originator of that gift?

I know some would say about costs and time etc involved, but it really does not have to cost a great deal today. With the internet it is very easy to distribute words, and music and movie.

Tell me, how many unbelievers are going to pay hard earned money, to buy that book or buy that cd to listen to that song?

Don't you see how copyright limits what God can do through you. It limits God reaching and touching the unbeliever through you.

You seem to be confusing "legal" with moral. While we might debate whether the copyright laws are moral, there is no debate about whether they are legal.

Amos_with_goats
Nov 18th 2008, 04:01 AM
It is an interesting discussion, but how far does this go?

If I write something, I should not think I own it? Right? (Do I understand this correctly?)

How about if I paint something? Is that mine?

Ok, how about carve something? Say I carve a flute? Do I own that?

Or if I melt metal, and forge something? Maybe a car. Can I own a car?

All matter was created by the Lord from nothing, and your car is just some of that matter... so do you really own it? Maybe

Amos_with_goats
Nov 18th 2008, 04:06 AM
This post is a result of this thread right?

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=147508

thepenitent
Nov 18th 2008, 04:34 AM
Copyright protects the authors from being plagiarised (yes, this does happen!) or their worked being changed by others. This doesn't mean that the Church can't use material that has been copyrighted, simply that, in some cases, permission is needed before it can be used.

Many Christians authors/poets (myself included) give permission before-hand that poems may be used by churches etc. without said institutions/individuals having to request it first.

Before I published my poems on the web I consulted a laywer who strongly advised me to take the necessary precaution (copyright), since we don't live in a perfect world.

Are you aware that the Bible is copyrighted?

God bless

From a legal standpoint your are correct. From a Christian standpoint we should rejoice if any of our Christian writing should be lifted because (1) someone thought it was good enough to copy and (2) the word is being spread.
Ronald Reagan had a plaque on his desk that said "There's no limit to what you can accomplish as long as you don't care who gets the credit."

Every good Pastor worth his salt stole shamlessly from every sermon that ever made an impression on him and weaved them all into his own unique mix.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 18th 2008, 01:28 PM
If somebody tried to copyright the earth or the universe, then yeah, that'd be out of bounds, but for an author or an artist to copyright a work of theirs to which they are rightfully entitled to have their income off of protected is perfectly reasonable. Even the Apostle Paul told the Corinthians not to muzzle the ox that treads the grain.

The Apostle Paul, did not say that they should use or make an illegal claim.

Legally 'copyright' gives rights to the rights holder. The rights holder is the one who has created, authored and originated that item.

You said "If somebody tried to copyright the earth or the universe" but what about EVERYTHING in it?

For what do we have that we did not receive?
1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 18th 2008, 01:35 PM
In the Old Testament, it was God who freely gave land to His people. Yet they had boundary stones to indicate what land they owned, and at least a few of the Torah Laws were made in relation to people owning things that were freely given to them.

The Father gave people land, but He still acknowledged that those people owned it and that it could be stolen from them.

And that was something freely given to them. In which case, the people who actually put the time and work into creating something are naturally given ownership of it by the very fact that they created it, and it is thus up to them what to do with it.

Ownership, is not a claim to being the creator, author and originator.
Sure, we can have laws to protect ownership.

I own a car, but I did not create it.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 18th 2008, 01:44 PM
It is an interesting discussion, but how far does this go?

If I write something, I should not think I own it? Right? (Do I understand this correctly?)

How about if I paint something? Is that mine?

Ok, how about carve something? Say I carve a flute? Do I own that?

Or if I melt metal, and forge something? Maybe a car. Can I own a car?

All matter was created by the Lord from nothing, and your car is just some of that matter... so do you really own it? Maybe

Hi Amos!

I am not debating ownership.
Ownership is protected by other laws

Vhayes
Nov 18th 2008, 01:49 PM
I guess I'm uncertain what you are talking about exactly -

Authors, musicians, designers, etc. do indeed take very loose thoughts and pull them together to create a finished piece. Sometimes that process takes years to come together enough to be published as a book, recorded as a song or developed into a usable product.

While it may seem like thirty dollars is a whole lot to pay for a book, you have to realize you are paying for not just the paper and the cover, you are also paying for the authors ability to bring all those words to the paper. It may have taken him five years to write the book - should he not be compensated for the time it took to "get it right"?

The same with musicians and songwriters. It takes a whole lot of dedication to get to the point where a song is ready to be recorded and there are expenses related to acheiving that goal.

Lastly, I would say that copyright laws protect people from having their works lifted and used for purposes they themselves might not support, or worse yet, to promote something they themselves are completely opposed to.

Does this help any? I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand your viewpoint.

Thanks -
V

Vhayes
Nov 18th 2008, 01:54 PM
One last thought - a laborer is worthy of his hire. We pay the dry cleaner for his services, we pay the pastor for being our shepherd, we pay the mail man for delivering the mail - why should we not pay the people who bring us inspiring words or music? They "work" to string that set or words or those particular notes together. If they give their product away, fine. But they also have to eat.

Does that make sense?
V

Luke34
Nov 18th 2008, 02:06 PM
The creator of a work does not have to obtain a copyright; his work is copyrighted as soon as it is created in a fixed form (see, I learned something in Computers for Musicians!). So having a copyright is the default, legally; it's not something that you have to seek out but that Christians shouldn't. Anyway, since U.S. laws can't and aren't able to cover deities, it makes sense to give rights to a work to the human being who originated it, even if we can say theologically that it ultimately comes from God. Plus, copyrights are the only thing that enable musicians, painters, etc. to make money from their work, and why shouldn't they, if everyone else does? Saying they shouldn't is like saying a truck driver shouldn't get paid because God ultimately created both the truck and the human ability to drive trucks.

And I'm really baffled by the claim that holding copyright is "illegal."

Partaker of Christ
Nov 18th 2008, 02:07 PM
I guess I'm uncertain what you are talking about exactly -

Authors, musicians, designers, etc. do indeed take very loose thoughts and pull them together to create a finished piece. Sometimes that process takes years to come together enough to be published as a book, recorded as a song or developed into a usable product.

While it may seem like thirty dollars is a whole lot to pay for a book, you have to realize you are paying for not just the paper and the cover, you are also paying for the authors ability to bring all those words to the paper. It may have taken him five years to write the book - should he not be compensated for the time it took to "get it right"?

The same with musicians and songwriters. It takes a whole lot of dedication to get to the point where a song is ready to be recorded and there are expenses related to acheiving that goal.

Lastly, I would say that copyright laws protect people from having their works lifted and used for purposes they themselves might not support, or worse yet, to promote something they themselves are completely opposed to.

Does this help any? I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand your viewpoint.

Thanks -
V

Hi V!

Thanks for your input.

If God was fearful of what man would do with the scriptures, and use them for purposes that He did not support or promote, were would we be today?

There are many ministries, that take up an awful lot of money and time. If we have the call for missionary work, are them not equipped by God Himself, and provided by God Himself to do the task.
Do we say that I did that work, or that God did that in me and through me?

HisLeast
Nov 18th 2008, 02:09 PM
Ownership, is not a claim to being the creator, author and originator.
Sure, we can have laws to protect ownership.

I own a car, but I did not create it.

But if you had bought all the parts and used years of your own experience and acquired capital to assemble it yourself, you'd certainly have a problem with someone stealing it in the night and telling the world it was THEIR efforts that built it.

Some people are blessed with construction skills. They can earn a living by their ability to build or repair things. Others, like myself, earn by what they can ponder, imagine, write, train, and orally transmit. At the end of the day, the first guy has something to hold in his hand. The other has the trust that others won't take advantage.

My first job was learning a cryptic and rather obscure piece of software. Within 3 years I was one of the best in the world. Because I cared, I spent a year writing a comprehensive training manual for it in my spare time. My employer took this manual and sold it, without my permission, and without compensation. Its nothing short of theft. They robbed me of years of hard toiling and effort. And some day, justice will be done... as the Lord will not tolerate a thief. The Old Testament is very clear on the penalty for shady dealers.

But do you know who else won't tolerate a thief? Society. And to defend guys like me from the ravenous hand of rapist employers, cads, and liars... they have set up very fair and equitable laws to help ensure that those of us who share our hard toil are compensated, instead of forced over a barrel and economically sodomized by those who think rules don't apply to them.

Vhayes
Nov 18th 2008, 02:18 PM
Hi V!

Thanks for your input.

If God was fearful of what man would do with the scriptures, and use them for purposes that He did not support or promote, were would we be today?

There are many ministries, that take up an awful lot of money and time. If we have the call for missionary work, are them not equipped by God Himself, and provided by God Himself to do the task.
Do we say that I did that work, or that God did that in me and through me?
I think most writers/artists etc. allow churches and missions to use their works free of charge. I could be wrong about this but that is my understanding.

God gives certain abilities to certain people. If God gives a person the ability to use words in a way that inspires others, would we not be going against God to not acknowledge that persons "gift" and support him? The easiest way TO support him and what he brings to the table is by paying for his material(s), his thoughts and his artistry in stringing it all together. If the man is a Christian, he will give the glory and honor for his "gift" to God.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 18th 2008, 02:19 PM
One last thought - a laborer is worthy of his hire. We pay the dry cleaner for his services, we pay the pastor for being our shepherd, we pay the mail man for delivering the mail - why should we not pay the people who bring us inspiring words or music? They "work" to string that set or words or those particular notes together. If they give their product away, fine. But they also have to eat.

Does that make sense?
V

I am not saying anything against being supported, whilst we labour. Perhaps how we sometimes get that financial support, may be questionable.

God gives various gifts, for the edifying and building up of the body. He does not give us the gift to edify and build up ourselves.
If I have the gift of healing, is it so that I can heal myself?

Br. Barnabas
Nov 18th 2008, 02:28 PM
As much as you might dislike it we need copyright laws and copyrights. We do not live in a utopian society or even a Christian society. Thus that means that some people will be willing and are willing to steal the ideas of other people.

Letís look at it different way say someone worked at a car manufacturing company; when one car was done there were a number of people who helped build the car but the car belongs to the company. Because they provided the means for the car to be built and the materials to build it, right? Now if one assembly worker took that car as his own without paying the company for it then it is stealing right or if someone else not working at the company took the car it's stealing, right?

Well the same for someone who writes a book, he or she put a lot of time into that and provided the materials and the means for the words in the book to be there. Should the author not be able to say what is done with his or her intellectual property? Just as the car company should be able to decided which distributes they sell the car to, so that it can be sold to the consumer.

Besides that there are a lot more people involved in the production of a book than just the author, who spent years or months creating the work. There are also publishers and editors and printing companies and the paper companies. Now if the ideas and such in the book can be stolen and used by someone else then all those people are losing a job and it will be given to other companies and publishers and what not. So the author has lost out on that time that it took to come up the idea and write it and edit it his or her self.

It is not even like the author is really creating anything; because it is God alone who can create. In the Hebrew Bible the word used for create is only used in reference to God. But man is able to build or fashion things. So the author is only fashioning a book he or she is manipulating the language to fashion it into something that tells a story or explains something.

As others have pointed out there is nothing wrong with wanted to protect what one has built or made.

Another example do you lock your door when you leave your home? If so why; those are not your belonging inside you did not create them. Why should you care if they are stolen? Why would you not want authors to be able to lock their books, should the author be able to be stolen from but not you or anyone else?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 18th 2008, 02:34 PM
But if you had bought all the parts and used years of your own experience and acquired capital to assemble it yourself, you'd certainly have a problem with someone stealing it in the night and telling the world it was THEIR efforts that built it.

Some people are blessed with construction skills. They can earn a living by their ability to build or repair things. Others, like myself, earn by what they can ponder, imagine, write, train, and orally transmit. At the end of the day, the first guy has something to hold in his hand. The other has the trust that others won't take advantage.

My first job was learning a cryptic and rather obscure piece of software. Within 3 years I was one of the best in the world. Because I cared, I spent a year writing a comprehensive training manual for it in my spare time. My employer took this manual and sold it, without my permission, and without compensation. Its nothing short of theft. They robbed me of years of hard toiling and effort. And some day, justice will be done... as the Lord will not tolerate a thief. The Old Testament is very clear on the penalty for shady dealers.

But do you know who else won't tolerate a thief? Society. And to defend guys like me from the ravenous hand of rapist employers, cads, and liars... they have set up very fair and equitable laws to help ensure that those of us who share our hard toil are compensated, instead of forced over a barrel and economically sodomized by those who think rules don't apply to them.

Hi HisLeast!

So, you know what it is like when someone takes what you have done, and claims it for themselves to having done that work?

You did all the work, and they claim the rights, and get the rewards and glory.

HisLeast
Nov 18th 2008, 02:41 PM
So, you know what it is like when someone takes what you have done, and claims it for themselves to having done that work?

You did all the work, and they claim the rights, and get the rewards and glory.

Yes. I do. And the suggestion, from a Christian brother, that my longing for the protections and justice copywrite provides makes me an atheist.... that is almost as bitter an experience.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 18th 2008, 02:54 PM
As much as you might dislike it we need copyright laws and copyrights. We do not live in a utopian society or even a Christian society. Thus that means that some people will be willing and are willing to steal the ideas of other people.

Letís look at it different way say someone worked at a car manufacturing company; when one car was done there were a number of people who helped build the car but the car belongs to the company. Because they provided the means for the car to be built and the materials to build it, right? Now if one assembly worker took that car as his own without paying the company for it then it is stealing right or if someone else not working at the company took the car it's stealing, right?

Well the same for someone who writes a book, he or she put a lot of time into that and provided the materials and the means for the words in the book to be there. Should the author not be able to say what is done with his or her intellectual property? Just as the car company should be able to decided which distributes they sell the car to, so that it can be sold to the consumer.

Besides that there are a lot more people involved in the production of a book than just the author, who spent years or months creating the work. There are also publishers and editors and printing companies and the paper companies. Now if the ideas and such in the book can be stolen and used by someone else then all those people are losing a job and it will be given to other companies and publishers and what not. So the author has lost out on that time that it took to come up the idea and write it and edit it his or her self.

It is not even like the author is really creating anything; because it is God alone who can create. In the Hebrew Bible the word used for create is only used in reference to God. But man is able to build or fashion things. So the author is only fashioning a book he or she is manipulating the language to fashion it into something that tells a story or explains something.

As others have pointed out there is nothing wrong with wanted to protect what one has built or made.

Another example do you lock your door when you leave your home? If so why; those are not your belonging inside you did not create them. Why should you care if they are stolen? Why would you not want authors to be able to lock their books, should the author be able to be stolen from but not you or anyone else?

Hi Uriel!

Again, I am not talking about ownership, but claims of creator.

If I write a book to build up and edify the Body of Christ, it has either come from me, or come from God. To build and edify the Body, it has to bring life. If it has come from me, it will not edify or build up, because the body needs life. I am not the life.

God will not glorify what 'I' have done

Partaker of Christ
Nov 18th 2008, 03:07 PM
Yes. I do. And the suggestion, from a Christian brother, that my longing for the protections and justice copywrite provides makes me an atheist.... that is almost as bitter an experience.

Hi again HisLeast!

I did not make claim that you are an atheist?

I said that 'copyright' is atheistic.
What someone does in the flesh, is of the flesh, but what is done in the Spirit is of the Spirit, and He is the Author, Creator and Originator.

If a Christian claims the book, or song or any other ministry, is by the Spirit, then He [God] is the rights holder.

HisLeast
Nov 18th 2008, 03:15 PM
I did not make claim that you are an atheist?

I said that 'copyright' is atheistic.

Answered your own question. Due to my experience with my former employer I'll be seeking copyright protection for anything I pour my energy into producing. How you equate that to a belief there is no God is positively baffling. God has seen fit to bless me with certain skills, and I use those skills to feed my family, and I'll leverage the protections this great nation offers in order to safeguard the fruits of that labor.

Vhayes
Nov 18th 2008, 03:19 PM
Hi Partaker -

I think where the confusion/controvery may be is in our understanding of "creation".

People "create" a car out of parts. They did indeed "create" it - but the raw materials were there. The same with a writer - they "create" a work out of raw materials supplied by God. If they are a Christian writer, they give the glory to God for allowing them the life experiences, the time and the gift of stringing words together to "create" a work.

If you "create" something from raw materials, would you say you "made" it, or would you say God made it OR would you say YOU made it with the help and grace of GOD?

This made sense to me when I started typing - I'm not so sure it does now....
V

Partaker of Christ
Nov 18th 2008, 03:26 PM
Hi Partaker -

I think where the confusion/controvery may be is in our understanding of "creation".

People "create" a car out of parts. They did indeed "create" it - but the raw materials were there. The same with a writer - they "create" a work out of raw materials supplied by God. If they are a Christian writer, they give the glory to God for allowing them the life experiences, the time and the gift of stringing words together to "create" a work.

If you "create" something from raw materials, would you say you "made" it, or would you say God made it OR would you say YOU made it with the help and grace of GOD?

This made sense to me when I started typing - I'm not so sure it does now....
V

Hi V

If we live by the Spirit, and walk by the Spirit, then it is of God.

If by the Spirit, I write a book, then it is of God.
If by the Spirit, I have a song of worship, then it is of God.

Vhayes
Nov 18th 2008, 03:36 PM
Hi V

If we live by the Spirit, and walk by the Spirit, then it is of God.

If by the Spirit, I write a book, then it is of God.
If by the Spirit, I have a song of worship, then it is of God.
But that still doesn't address whether or not you should be paid to support yourself and your family, whether or not the "sweat of your brow" should be compensated and what to do if someone else takes credit for your work and you have no way of proving the work was yours.

Br. Barnabas
Nov 18th 2008, 03:59 PM
Hi Uriel!

Again, I am not talking about ownership, but claims of creator.

If I write a book to build up and edify the Body of Christ, it has either come from me, or come from God. To build and edify the Body, it has to bring life. If it has come from me, it will not edify or build up, because the body needs life. I am not the life.

God will not glorify what 'I' have done

See there is this part of a book called the acknoledgements part where you can say thank you to all who helped make the book possible. Many Christian authors thank their spouse and publishers and others who helped them with ideas and usually if not always they thank God, giving him the credit for the ablity to write the book.

But copyrights are still needed because even if it is meant to build up the body of Christ some in the body might take advantage of that. Paul stated that if he wanted to he could ask the churches for money but instead he laboured so that he would not have to ask them for money. Just as a priest or pastor is paid by their church; Christian authors should be paid for their work, because even if God put it in them and gave them the ability and talent to write and encourage; they still had to take time out of their lives to construct the work that they wrote. They should be paid for their time and efforts. Just as a Christian carpentar that might build a church should be paid for his or her; time the Christian author should be his or her time. The copyright also protects them from having a non-Christian steal their work and sell it to churches or others that the author intended to give it to. It also protects the author from having someone add something to the work that would make it say something completly different from what he or she meant it to say. For example someone could add to it unorthodox teachings or say that you should give your money to these people or this foundation that is really just a front for the theif's own gain.

Copyright is not a bad thing or an athesis thing. Christians are not better than the law of the land in which we live. We can use it when it helps us and sometimes that law might also hurt us, but most of the time it is meant to help the majority of the people.

Amos_with_goats
Nov 18th 2008, 04:24 PM
Hi Amos!

I am not debating ownership.
Ownership is protected by other laws

Your point draws distinction between the creation of intangible (intellectual) property and concrete (real) property. I do not believe this distinction is supported scripturally. I have not seen where you had posted any scripture to support your premise.

Provided they both are 'doing as unto the Lord' I do not believe the Lord draws distinction between the product of the Labor of one who writes books, and one who makes houses or any other thing.

What scriptures are you using to come to the conclusion that "'copyright' is atheistic and illegal (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1871829#post1871829)"?

Literalist-Luke
Nov 18th 2008, 04:48 PM
The Apostle Paul, did not say that they should use or make an illegal claim.

Legally 'copyright' gives rights to the rights holder. The rights holder is the one who has created, authored and originated that item.

You said "If somebody tried to copyright the earth or the universe" but what about EVERYTHING in it?

For what do we have that we did not receive?
1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?Maybe I'm a little slow, but is there somebody who's trying to copyright the whole world?

Literalist-Luke
Nov 18th 2008, 04:51 PM
I am not saying anything against being supported, whilst we labour. Perhaps how we sometimes get that financial support, may be questionable.

God gives various gifts, for the edifying and building up of the body. He does not give us the gift to edify and build up ourselves.
If I have the gift of healing, is it so that I can heal myself?If that gift of healing is your lifework and what you spend your day with, how do you intend to earn money to eat and pay the bills with?

RabbiKnife
Nov 18th 2008, 06:28 PM
If we want to have the argument that

"All ideas belong to God, and if God gave you an idea and wrote it down, then you cannot copyright it or obtain money for selling it," then OK.

As long as we also agree that God owns all the cattle, all the hills, all the gold, all the money, and all the houses.

Therefore, since God gave you all that you "possess", I should be able to come over to your house and get everything I want because it isn't yours anyway.

Sounds like a deal to me....

:idea:

Amos_with_goats
Nov 18th 2008, 06:32 PM
Your point draws distinction between the creation of intangible (intellectual) property and concrete (real) property. I do not believe this distinction is supported scripturally. I have not seen where you had posted any scripture to support your premise.

Provided they both are 'doing as unto the Lord' I do not believe the Lord draws distinction between the product of the Labor of one who writes books, and one who makes houses or any other thing.

What scriptures are you using to come to the conclusion that "'copyright' is atheistic and illegal (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1871829#post1871829)"?


Just to expound a bit, I believe we must be VERY careful when drawing lines in the sand that are not in scripture. The Pharisees did the same at their peril.

markedward
Nov 18th 2008, 07:24 PM
Partaker of Christ

Can you provide any Scripture that claims man is not allowed to "copyright" anything? That is, can you provide any Scripture that says man is not allowed to own the things he creates with "gifts"?

If you cannot provide any Scripture to support your original premise (that "copyright is atheistic and illegal"), then you are flatout saying unBiblical things. For you to claim that "copyright" is "atheistic" and "illegal" (I think you intend to mean immoral) without any Biblical support is legalistic and - as Amos_with_goats pointed out - is exactly what the Pharisees were doing in Jesus' day.

You've only provided one Bible verse (which hardly fits the situation you brought up in the OP). Build a Biblical case, otherwise, all that you've said is simply "Pharisaic" in nature.

songladyjenn
Nov 19th 2008, 02:17 PM
If we want to have the argument that

"All ideas belong to God, and if God gave you an idea and wrote it down, then you cannot copyright it or obtain money for selling it," then OK.

As long as we also agree that God owns all the cattle, all the hills, all the gold, all the money, and all the houses.

Therefore, since God gave you all that you "possess", I should be able to come over to your house and get everything I want because it isn't yours anyway.

Sounds like a deal to me....

:idea:


You want to borrow my truck?http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/haushalt/r015.gif

RabbiKnife
Nov 19th 2008, 02:19 PM
It's not "your" truck!!!!

I'll take it!!!!

:lol:

songladyjenn
Nov 19th 2008, 02:22 PM
It's not "your" truck!!!!

I'll take it!!!!

:lol:


You're right, it's my hubby's...no wait.....it belongs to the bank....no that's not right...it's Gods....oh I'm sooooooooo confused http://web.tiscali.it/pljnsky/smiles/eyepop.gif

Partaker of Christ
Nov 19th 2008, 07:03 PM
You're right, it's my hubby's...no wait.....it belongs to the bank....no that's not right...it's Gods....oh I'm sooooooooo confused http://web.tiscali.it/pljnsky/smiles/eyepop.gif

You can joke and scoff at the truth all you like.

What we do is either by the Spirit, or in the flesh. If it is in the flesh, then sure, put your name to it. Tell the world that, and enjoy it!!

HisLeast
Nov 19th 2008, 07:11 PM
What we do is either by the Spirit, or in the flesh. If it is in the flesh, then sure, put your name to it. Tell the world that, and enjoy it!!

What does this mean in layman's terms?

songladyjenn
Nov 19th 2008, 07:16 PM
You can joke and scoff at the truth all you like.

What we do is either by the Spirit, or in the flesh. If it is in the flesh, then sure, put your name to it. Tell the world that, and enjoy it!!


You have yet to show how what you are proposing is "the truth" where are the scriptures that say that by placing copyright 2008 GeMS Ministries (which is my copyright btw) on my music is "atheist" show me from the scriptures how that means I don't believe in God. . . . .

You have your opinion and you are entitled to it however you must remember that opinions are like noses everyone has one and most of the smell ;)

and you also have not shown how my receiving compensation for my music and my photographs is anything different than you getting a paycheck from your job...you do get paid don't you?

ConqueredbyLove
Nov 19th 2008, 08:03 PM
Hi again HisLeast!


What someone does in the flesh, is of the flesh, but what is done in the Spirit is of the Spirit, and He is the Author, Creator and Originator.

Amen...

If a Christian claims the book, or song or any other ministry, is by the Spirit, then He [God] is the rights holder.

Amen, again...

Interesting discussion. I am a writer. I love writing. But the work I do is not mine! It is God's! I do not own it. He can protect it or not as He sees fit.

God gave me the giftings, God gives me the original idea ( I usually write devotionals ). He leads me to further research and study if needed, He puts scriptures in my mind. He gives me the words to type as I sit down to write.

It is all God. I am just the joyful empty vessel He works through.

It has been the absolute joy of my heart to have taken no compensation for the ministry He has given me, even tho I have been published and others have encouraged me to seek to be published further. God has blessed my writings very much.

I have no idea how fruitful my ministry is. That is kept mostly hidden from my eyes, reserved for the day when I am looking in my Savior's eyes.

If others take compensation or copyright their work, I have no problem with that.

This is just the way I love to do it! I claim no super spirituality but Jesus did say "freely you have received, freely give".

I would not trade the joy I have over the ministry and the workings of my ministry for all of the compensation in the world :)

Again, I repeat...It is not mine to keep. It is His work in and through me to do with as He pleases...

HisLeast
Nov 19th 2008, 08:26 PM
Interesting discussion. I am a writer. I love writing. But the work I do is not mine! It is God's! I do not own it. He can protect it or not as He sees fit.

What if he's equipped you to protect it via copyright laws designed to defend your work?

ConqueredbyLove
Nov 19th 2008, 08:59 PM
What if he's equipped you to protect it via copyright laws designed to defend your work?

Protect it from what? :hmm:

HisLeast
Nov 19th 2008, 09:09 PM
Protect it from what? :hmm:
People who would take profit from it for themselves, plagiarism it, or otherwise use it inappropriately.

The protractors of this thread seem to think copyright is about milking something for money, or ripping glory away from God. In reality its rightful protection for those who have birthed something of intellectual rather than physical media, where ever their inspiration came from.

How would you feel if you wrote a beautiful song of praise to the Lord, and someone used it as the background music to hard core porn? The OP would have us believe seeking protection for your work is denial of the existence of God.

ConqueredbyLove
Nov 19th 2008, 10:15 PM
People who would take profit from it for themselves, plagiarism it, or otherwise use it inappropriately.

But that has happened. In spite of copyright. I frankly, get extremely upset when I see the Bible merchandized (sp). and one cannot deny the fact that, often it is. Is my anger over that any different then the Holy anger of Jesus when He went into the temple and cleansed it because they had made it a den of thieves?

Granted this is a far-fetched example but when I was doing a study on different versions of the Bible and was searching the net, it made me want to vomit at how much the Bible is merchandized. For example, there is the "Pie Makers Bible", the "Golfer's Bible".

Some of us just believe that the merchandizing of holy things of the Lord has gone waaay to far. And, copyright to me can, note I said, can be a form of merchandizing.


How would you feel if you wrote a beautiful song of praise to the Lord, and someone used it as the background music to hard core porn?

I seriously think this is a rather far-fetched example. Have you seen this happen?


The OP would have us believe seeking protection for your work is denial of the existence of God.

Well, I can see his point. It is, God's work, not ours and God's glory we should be seeking. Copy right can be a way of seeking our own glory.

Friend of I AM
Nov 19th 2008, 10:54 PM
Copyright protects the authors from being plagiarised (yes, this does happen!) or their worked being changed by others. This doesn't mean that the Church can't use material that has been copyrighted, simply that, in some cases, permission is needed before it can be used.

Many Christians authors/poets (myself included) give permission before-hand that poems may be used by churches etc. without said institutions/individuals having to request it first.

Before I published my poems on the web I consulted a laywer who strongly advised me to take the necessary precaution (copyright), since we don't live in a perfect world.

Are you aware that the Bible is copyrighted?

God bless

Me agree with you to a point. I think at times this society can go a little bit overboard with it though. I've seen this happen in so many industries within the states. People think they are literally entitled to have control over everything you've bought from them or that they've distributed at one point. I mean, if I copy a poem from the internet..and then put it up on a message board - should the message board then be entitled to pay the person who originally wrote the poem?

I'm not familiar in entirety with the law..but I see this as being one of those things that can be taken to the extreme and take away people's basic freedoms..if not controlled.

songladyjenn
Nov 20th 2008, 12:15 AM
I agree with what you say friend of I am ;)

However I think what most of us here in this thread are requesting is the BIBLICAL DOCUMENTATION for the following statement of the OP

'copyright' is atheistic and illegal and


Should the Church, and those within the Church, 'copyright'?
I think what many in the Church fail to see, is that 'copyright' is atheistic in its claims.

and



Don't you see how copyright limits what God can do through you. It limits God reaching and touching the unbeliever through you.

None of the above can be supported by the scriptures and we have asked and asked and asked for ANY scriptural support for calling those who use the copyright protection afforded by law makes us 'atheistic and illegal'

So we are just http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v319/tankexmortis/Smileys/th_Seriously__We_Need_One__by_Catharsi.gif back and forth waiting for some any scriptural support (this is after all the Bible Chat forum) ;)

paidforinfull
Nov 20th 2008, 04:01 PM
Me agree with you to a point. I think at times this society can go a little bit overboard with it though. I've seen this happen in so many industries within the states. People think they are literally entitled to have control over everything you've bought from them or that they've distributed at one point. I mean, if I copy a poem from the internet..and then put it up on a message board - should the message board then be entitled to pay the person who originally wrote the poem?

I'm not familiar in entirety with the law..but I see this as being one of those things that can be taken to the extreme and take away people's basic freedoms..if not controlled.

Hi Friend of I Am - yes, I agree that copyright, such as with most other things in this imperfect world we live in can be taken to extremes (and the Word of God teaches that we should avoid all extremes).

I can't speak for others, but all the (copyrighted) poems which have been written by me may be used for ministerial/educational purposes free of charge without requesting my permission to do so. What people can't do is plagiarise them, change them (I would definitely not want them changed - especially if the message I am trying to pass on gets twisted in the process), make money off them, etc. I am not saying that they are so good that people will want to sell them left, right and center ;), but strange things can happen and rather safe than sorry I always say.

My understanding is that God expects me to be a good steward of all He has given into my safekeeping. I am not the owner, but the guardian of these poems, and I intend to guard them well. Many people may not agree with me on this, but we must all be obedient to what God is telling us personally.

The Bible does not forbid copyright, and it is not Biblically illegal (or atheistic) in any way whatsoever.

The Bible itself has been copyrighted, which generally means that anybody wanting to quote more than 1000 verses needs prior permission to do so from the publishers. That does seem rather reasonable, doesn't it? Anybody wanting to quote more than 1000 verses should rather advise their readers to buy their own Bible. Copyright also ensures that no-one can take the Bible, change it and reproduce it. Again, this seems reasonable, doesn't it?

God bless.

RabbiKnife
Nov 20th 2008, 04:15 PM
The Word does NOT teach us to avoid all extremes.

I am extreme in my avoidance of adultery, for instance.

paidforinfull
Nov 20th 2008, 04:22 PM
The Word does NOT teach us to avoid all extremes.

I am extreme in my avoidance of adultery, for instance.

Yes it does:

Ec 7:18 "It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. The man who fears God will avoid all extremes."

(Let's not get off topic here, please.)

Brother Mark
Nov 20th 2008, 04:23 PM
Scripture teaches that those who labor in the word deserve to be paid. Copyright laws are the governments way of fulfilling God's will in the matter.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 20th 2008, 04:29 PM
The Word does NOT teach us to avoid all extremes.

I am extreme in my avoidance of adultery, for instance.

Good point...be wise to good, simple to evil. I don't subcribe to the theory of do some wicked things on one extreme to balance out the doing of some righteous things..I think that's what you're getting at..am I right?

I often times think though the extreme forms are what really represent evil though, which is what I think is meant in the Ecclessiastes verse it is taken from. Take the Pharisees for example..those were some wicked guys. They were extremely righteous in relation to the law..but this made them so prideful when it came to the aspects of compassion, mercy, etc, on those whom they deemed lesser than themselves. We should always avoid doing evil though. Definitely good to have true fear of the Lord in our walks and hate evil.

On topic:

Copyright laws are good. There are soo many miscellaneous laws nowadays regarding copyright though that I believe it can make even the most modest and upright of people cringe. I think society has taken soo many of our laws to extremes it's not even funny. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try our best to abide by these laws of the land, but at times I can see how these can be constrictive even to those who are attempting to live relatively upright moral lives.

paidforinfull
Nov 20th 2008, 04:57 PM
I want to put the following questions to those who oppose copyright:

(I want you to consider the following questions, and then answer them as honestly as possible to yourself)

How would you feel, or react, if you were (for example) a poet and somebody publishes your work as their own? Would you really, honestly, like that? Would you say nothing? What if someone changed your poems -would that still be acceptable to you? Or if someone used your poem as lyrics for a song and sells it and make loads of money off it? Would you still be ok with it?

How can you protect your work, and ensure that it is not abused if you don't copyright it?

As always, it is very easy to judge. It is not so easy to see something from another person's point of view.

God bless.

Luke34
Nov 20th 2008, 05:13 PM
Plus, if you're going to officially and specifically acknowledge God as the ultimate creator of all works of art, all books and recordings would be shelved under "God" instead of by artist name. That wouldn't be very helpful.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 20th 2008, 08:03 PM
I want to put the following questions to those who oppose copyright:

(I want you to consider the following questions, and then answer them as honestly as possible to yourself)

How would you feel, or react, if you were (for example) a poet and somebody publishes your work as their own? Would you really, honestly, like that? Would you say nothing? What if someone changed your poems -would that still be acceptable to you? Or if someone used your poem as lyrics for a song and sells it and make loads of money off it? Would you still be ok with it?

How can you protect your work, and ensure that it is not abused if you don't copyright it?

As always, it is very easy to judge. It is not so easy to see something from another person's point of view.

God bless.

There are certain things that enter public domain after being used for a while, and thus anyone can use these things at anytime. I think copyright laws are good to a point, not to the point where they intrude upon one being able to do simple things that really have no negative impact upon the creator.

paidforinfull
Nov 20th 2008, 08:08 PM
There are certain things that enter public domain after being used for a while, and thus anyone can use these things at anytime. I think copyright laws are good to a point, not to the point where they intrude upon one being able to do simple things that really have no negative impact upon the creator.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you. Well said!

songladyjenn
Nov 20th 2008, 08:18 PM
On my website where I have all the pictures from this years football season including homecoming parade (my 2nd grader played football this year) I am selling the photos....100 images on a CD for $10....

this is the copyright that goes with it

"The images on this disc may used or printed for personal use. Feel free to print as many copies as you like however please do not charge for them. If you would like to post them anywhere on the web please include a link back to my home page. Thank you!"

And for my music anyone may place a widget with the songs on any web page (provided they get the widget from my page at reverbnation.com-please go get a widget I'm dying here lol) they just can't sell the music. heck currently I'm not even selling it ;) However I would be quite upset if someone took one of my songs, recorded it and sold it as their own. :D or took the music from one of my songs and put some not so nice words to it.....

The NET Bible (http://net.bible.org) copyright says you can print it as much as you would like (up to 1000 copies) as long as you GIVE IT AWAY for FREE... anything over 1000 they ask you to write em and let em know ;)

ConqueredbyLove
Nov 20th 2008, 11:28 PM
Scripture teaches that those who labor in the word deserve to be paid

Waitin for my paycheck, Mark :hmm:

songladyjenn
Nov 21st 2008, 12:01 AM
Waitin for my paycheck, Mark :hmm:

Just think of the retirement plan. . . . ;):saint:

Partaker of Christ
Nov 21st 2008, 12:03 AM
On my website where I have all the pictures from this years football season including homecoming parade (my 2nd grader played football this year) I am selling the photos....100 images on a CD for $10....

this is the copyright that goes with it

"The images on this disc may used or printed for personal use. Feel free to print as many copies as you like however please do not charge for them. If you would like to post them anywhere on the web please include a link back to my home page. Thank you!"

And for my music anyone may place a widget with the songs on any web page (provided they get the widget from my page at reverbnation.com-please go get a widget I'm dying here lol) they just can't sell the music. heck currently I'm not even selling it ;) However I would be quite upset if someone took one of my songs, recorded it and sold it as their own. :D or took the music from one of my songs and put some not so nice words to it.....

The NET Bible (http://net.bible.org) copyright says you can print it as much as you would like (up to 1000 copies) as long as you GIVE IT AWAY for FREE... anything over 1000 they ask you to write em and let em know ;)

Hi songladyjenn!

I have managed to get back online, as my PC went and died :cry:

Again, what one does in the flesh, they do in the flesh, and that is fine. That is by our works, and not by the Spirit.

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Within the Body of Christ, God freely gives us gifts, to freely give. They are of God, and they are by the Spirit of God.

Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Here Paul says that God shall give us freely 'all things'

Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

If we have been given by God, to give to the Body for the edifying and building up, can we then charge?

Should we support one another?
Yes of course we should, but that does not give right to 'charge', or lay down our own personal conditions, to how one freely recieves.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2Co 11:7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
2Co 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
2Co 11:9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.

Isa 41:17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.
Isa 41:18 I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.
Isa 41:19 I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the ****tah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together:

Isa 41:20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.

Jer 17:11 As the partridge sitteth on eggs, and hatcheth them not; so he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool.

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

ConqueredbyLove
Nov 21st 2008, 12:07 AM
I want to put the following questions to those who oppose copyright:

(I want you to consider the following questions, and then answer them as honestly as possible to yourself)

How would you feel, or react, if you were (for example) a poet and somebody publishes your work as their own?

I would be angry at first. But, really, I do not consider the work to be "mine" as I have mentioned before. God gave me the giftings, talents, words. How can I claim it to be mine? My anger would only flow from a heart that desires the glory for myself, though. What does it matter, if my heart is pure, whose name is on it if I am seeking only God's glory? He knows where it came from and that is all that should matter to me. He is the giver of the reward in Heaven. I am not saying I am there yet, though, this pure heart that I desire

Would you really, honestly, like that? Would you say nothing?

As above, first question. I would be tempted to say something, I honestly don't know if I would or not. The problem, as I see it is the other person is sinning in that case. Do we let them get away with their sin? That is a whole other topic.

What if someone changed your poems -would that still be acceptable to you?

I had that happen to me. They changed my devotionals around a bit. I liked the way I wrote it better :)


Or if someone used your poem as lyrics for a song and sells it and make loads of money off it? Would you still be ok with it?

Again, that is their sin. I should be praying for their repentance, if anything.

How can you protect your work, and ensure that it is not abused if you don't copyright it?

God can protect His work better than I can if He so chooses. And, it can still be abused even if copyrighted...

As always, it is very easy to judge. It is not so easy to see something from another person's point of view.

I was not judging, just because my opinion is different. Please go and look at one of my first posts on this thread. I specifically said I did not have a problem if someone else chooses to copyright, did'nt I? :hug:
God bless.

I think what is really being missed in this discussion is the fact that I feel that my writings are not mine! And I believe that is what the OP'er was trying to get across, I believe.

Perhaps he used the wrong words, atheistic and illegal. But, please give him the benefit of the doubt. He is only being concerned about keeping the things of God pure as I see it. And, I believe one can choose to copyright, also and keep the things of God pure ....Again, I am not judging I just see things a different way. We are, after all individuals :rolleyes:

paidforinfull
Nov 21st 2008, 12:11 AM
Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Within the Body of Christ, God freely gives us gifts, to freely give. They are of God, and they are by the Spirit of God.

Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Here Paul says that God shall give us freely 'all things'

Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

If we have been given by God, to give to the Body for the edifying and building up, can we then charge?

Should we support one another?
Yes of course we should, but that does not give right to 'charge', or lay down our own personal conditions, to how one freely recieves.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2Co 11:7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
2Co 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
2Co 11:9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.

Isa 41:17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.
Isa 41:18 I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.
Isa 41:19 I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the ****tah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together:

Isa 41:20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.

Jer 17:11 As the partridge sitteth on eggs, and hatcheth them not; so he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool.

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Hi there -

I am a bit confused here - what do the scriptures quoted here have to do with copyright?

The last verse seems to indicate that you are moving in the 'taking the glory for ourselves' direction, which is another topic alltogether. Am I misunderstanding you? :confused :confused

Partaker of Christ
Nov 21st 2008, 12:25 AM
I think what is really being missed in this discussion is the fact that I feel that my writings are not mine! And I believe that is what the OP'er was trying to get across, I believe.

Perhaps he used the wrong words, atheistic and illegal. But, please give him the benefit of the doubt. He is only being concerned about keeping the things of God pure as I see it. And, I believe one can choose to copyright, also and keep the things of God pure ....Again, I am not judging I just see things a different way. We are, after all individuals :rolleyes:

Hi ConqueredbyLove!

You are correct.

As for the words I have chosen to use (well I don't know) I guess it is how I see it. I don't have a great education.

"atheistic and illegal"

'atheistic' in that it denies God as the true creator.

'illegal' in that we steal His Glory, by wrongly claiming to be the rights holder.

I would add 'immoral', in that it deprives the very poorest, from a free gift.

As I see it, it is either of the Spirit, or it is of the flesh.

If it is of the Spirit, then how can we add conditions, cliams and charges that God Himself does not impose.

How did it all work before 'copyright' ever came in the world?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 21st 2008, 12:30 AM
Hi there -

I am a bit confused here - what do the scriptures quoted here have to do with copyright?

The last verse seems to indicate that you are moving in the 'taking the glory for ourselves' direction, which is another topic alltogether. Am I misunderstanding you? :confused :confused

Hi paidforinfull!

Simply by replacing His name, with our name as being the author, creator, originator, and rights holder.

We cannot claim it was God and me, but God alone (through me)

paidforinfull
Nov 21st 2008, 12:46 AM
'atheistic' in that it denies God as the true creator.

'illegal' in that we steal His Glory, by wrongly claiming to be the rights holder.

I would add 'immoral', in that it deprives the very poorest, from a free gift.



Hmmmm, these are truly strong allegations/judgments.

- Christian copyright holders will never deny the fact that God is the Creator and the One who inspires them (as a matter of fact, they trust this to be the case).

- Copyrighting materials does not indicate a desire to steal God's glory.

- As for stealing a gift from the poor? No, a lot of copyrighted material is being made available to all free, gratis and for nothing.

(If you read back throught the posts in this thread you will see that there are many excellent reasons for copyrighting (even Christian) writings.)

paidforinfull
Nov 21st 2008, 01:20 AM
And, I believe one can choose to copyright, also and keep the things of God pure ....Again, I am not judging I just see things a different way. We are, after all individuals :rolleyes:

Hi Conquered - yes, I agree with you. We are all individuals, and God works with us in different ways. We can respect one another's viewpoints even though we might not agree on all points.

We are, after all, on the same side - God's.

God bless.

ConqueredbyLove
Nov 21st 2008, 01:28 AM
Just think of the retirement plan. . . . ;):saint:

:rofl:........pretty good one :P

ConqueredbyLove
Nov 21st 2008, 01:38 AM
Hi Conquered - yes, I agree with you. We are all individuals, and God works with us in different ways. We can respect one another's viewpoints even though we might not agree on all points.

We are, after all, on the same side - God's.

God bless.

:hug: :) :hug:

I really loved what you had to say about being the guardian of what He gives us...I'll have to think about that one awhile. Might even change my opinion on the whole thing :) Never thought about that one :rolleyes:

paidforinfull
Nov 21st 2008, 01:57 AM
:hug: :) :hug:

I really loved what you had to say about being the guardian of what He gives us...I'll have to think about that one awhile. Might even change my opinion on the whole thing :) Never thought about that one :rolleyes:

:hug::hug:

God bless :)

tgallison
Nov 21st 2008, 07:22 PM
What you all fail to recognize is the fact that every time a new translation comes out, that it has to vary by a very distinct amount in order to apply for and receive a patent for the copyright. What does that mean to the Word of God? Is it all right to change the reading of the Word enough to acquire a patent on your copyright?

What challenges does that present to the translators? Revelation says that anyone that adds to the book of Revelation, will have the plagues of this book added to him, and anyone who takes away from the book of Revelation will have his part of the Book of Life taken from him. (Revelation 22:18-19)

Who are these men that are so bold as to change the Word so that they might present it as theirs.

The King James Bible was not written with a need to change it to meet copyright laws. Nor does it have a copyright patent in the U.S. In England it has an eternal copyright according to the commandment of the King.

Br. Barnabas
Nov 21st 2008, 08:31 PM
What you all fail to recognize is the fact that every time a new translation comes out, that it has to vary by a very distinct amount in order to apply for and receive a patent for the copyright. What does that mean to the Word of God? Is it all right to change the reading of the Word enough to acquire a patent on your copyright?

What challenges does that present to the translators? Revelation says that anyone that adds to the book of Revelation, will have the plagues of this book added to him, and anyone who takes away from the book of Revelation will have his part of the Book of Life taken from him. (Revelation 22:18-19)

Who are these men that are so bold as to change the Word so that they might present it as theirs.

The King James Bible was not written with a need to change it to meet copyright laws. Nor does it have a copyright patent in the U.S. In England it has an eternal copyright according to the commandment of the King.

After speaking with a NT scholar who confirmed that he had never heard of this 10% rule and could not deny it but did explain that since he has been in the field 30+ years and has never heard of said 10% rule, he doubts its existance.

I would have to agree with him. As you have yet to give proof of it. I do not agree with your it would follow logically reasoning either. Because as I have pointed out it does not and even people who are Biblical scholars have not heard of your 10% rule.

Emanate
Nov 21st 2008, 08:47 PM
Who are these men that are so bold as to change the Word so that they might present it as theirs.


They must be similar to men who would change the name of the brother of Jesus (Jacob) to fit the fancy of a king. Would not surprise me if they were similar to men who would intentionally mistranslate words to fit into Christian interpretation. A translation is a translation.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 21st 2008, 09:29 PM
Hmmmm, these are truly strong allegations/judgments.

- Christian copyright holders will never deny the fact that God is the Creator and the One who inspires them (as a matter of fact, they trust this to be the case).

- Copyrighting materials does not indicate a desire to steal God's glory.

- As for stealing a gift from the poor? No, a lot of copyrighted material is being made available to all free, gratis and for nothing.

(If you read back throught the posts in this thread you will see that there are many excellent reasons for copyrighting (even Christian) writings.)

Hi again paidforinfull!

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

What does "without money and without price" mean?
To me, It means without cost and conditions.
Copyright places cost and/or conditions.

I will attempt a very poor analogy if I may.

Suppose you sent a free unconditional gift to someone you love afar off, and you sent it by post. You choose me to be the post man.
When I get to deliver your gift, I say to that person 'This is from paidforinfull and me' You don't have to pay for the gift, but I have traveled x amount of miles to bring this to you, and my costs are $$$.
Now, before I give you this gift, I am going to have to set out some conditions of my own. You have to promise this, and you have to promise that.

That is how I see it.
God supplies the gift, and we deliver it [end of] We don't add our own stamp or trade mark, on the gift.

songladyjenn
Nov 21st 2008, 10:31 PM
Hey there Parktaker :) How have you been?

You have been asked this a bunch of times but I have yet to see you answer it so I'll ask one more time. . . .

Do you have a job? What do you do at your job? Do you receive a payment for the job that you do?

Now if you answered YES to any of the above can you explain how this is any different from me charging .99c a download for my music? or charging money for a CD with all the songs on it? or a poet charging for the book of their poems? or the author who charges for their books?

Thanks for taking the time to answer I really appreciate it.

tgallison
Nov 21st 2008, 11:32 PM
After speaking with a NT scholar who confirmed that he had never heard of this 10% rule and could not deny it but did explain that since he has been in the field 30+ years and has never heard of said 10% rule, he doubts its existance.

I would have to agree with him. As you have yet to give proof of it. I do not agree with your it would follow logically reasoning either. Because as I have pointed out it does not and even people who are Biblical scholars have not heard of your 10% rule.

The new translations read more than 10%. As I have told you before, there is no written rule that I know of, but it is an industry standard, that is shown by the fact that the new translations read more than 10% different. The publishers know how it works, and the lawyers know.

The obvious point is that they are changed. How is that acceptable?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 21st 2008, 11:45 PM
Hey there Parktaker :) How have you been?

You have been asked this a bunch of times but I have yet to see you answer it so I'll ask one more time. . . .

Do you have a job? What do you do at your job? Do you receive a payment for the job that you do?

Now if you answered YES to any of the above can you explain how this is any different from me charging .99c a download for my music? or charging money for a CD with all the songs on it? or a poet charging for the book of their poems? or the author who charges for their books?

Thanks for taking the time to answer I really appreciate it.

Hi again songladyjenn!!

I am fine thanks, and slowly rebuilding my PC.

I thought that I had answered that question?

What we do in the flesh, we do in the flesh.

Paul worked with his own hands, to sustain himself [and others], whilst he freely ministered for the Lord without charge.

Act 20:33 I coveted no manís silver, or gold, or apparel.
Act 20:34 Ye yourselves know that these hands ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. Act 20:35 In all things I gave you an example, how that so labouring ye ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

songladyjenn
Nov 21st 2008, 11:58 PM
ok thanks for the answer (i hate it when puters mess up) lol

here's the thing, if I write music (or a book or anything considered intellectual property that gets copyrighted) and it is my source of income how is that different than what you do when you go to work?

Now if this is my primary source of income and I DO NOT copyright my stuff and someone else comes along and takes what I have done places their own copyright on it and starts to sell it I can no longer receive an income for my work...does this make sense?

I don't see how you can make a distinction between what you do to get paid and what others do to get paid. How are they different. Did God not give you the gift/skill to do your job in the same way that He gave me a gift/skill to do mine?

Do I give my music away without charge for ministries? Absolutely. Like I said above if someone came along and stole my work I would not be able to do that any more.

tgallison
Nov 22nd 2008, 12:06 AM
They must be similar to men who would change the name of the brother of Jesus (Jacob) to fit the fancy of a king. Would not surprise me if they were similar to men who would intentionally mistranslate words to fit into Christian interpretation. A translation is a translation.

Well if they did anything wrong(And I don't concede that because I don't know.), then compounding it with a second, third, fourth, and perhaps on into infinity errors help? Every new translation requires a change in the wording and none can be the same.

Just how much different do they all have to be to receive a copyright?

paidforinfull
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:03 AM
Oops - sorry, quoted the wrong person here.


The only reason I can see for wanting to publish another version of the Bible, would be because they want to change it - otherwise they wouldn't even consider it, since there would be no need for it. With other words, they change the Bible because they want to, not because of copyright.

songladyjenn
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:04 AM
most - not all - biblical copyrights are for study bibles....the niv has a bunch of different study bibles all with the same translation.....the copyrights are for the study notes etc....does this help any?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 24th 2008, 12:27 AM
ok thanks for the answer (i hate it when puters mess up) lol

here's the thing, if I write music (or a book or anything considered intellectual property that gets copyrighted) and it is my source of income how is that different than what you do when you go to work?

Now if this is my primary source of income and I DO NOT copyright my stuff and someone else comes along and takes what I have done places their own copyright on it and starts to sell it I can no longer receive an income for my work...does this make sense?

I don't see how you can make a distinction between what you do to get paid and what others do to get paid. How are they different. Did God not give you the gift/skill to do your job in the same way that He gave me a gift/skill to do mine?

Do I give my music away without charge for ministries? Absolutely. Like I said above if someone came along and stole my work I would not be able to do that any more.

Sorry [though I am not sorry] to keep pounding this one out, but very clearly in the scriptures, it say's God gives freely. Without money and without price (conditions)

If what we do as servants in God's work (called and anointed by the Holy Spirit) Then it has to be given without money (charge) and without price (copyright)

The servant is not above his Master. If the Master say's it is to be freely given, then the servant say's it is to be freely given.

If God say's it is free, then it is free.

I have been accused of being legalistic and Pharasitical, and I am fine with that, but it is not the truth.

The reason I say this is, because God will have His work done. Regardless of how we mess things up, He has ordained what will be, and it will come to pass what He has spoken.

When it comes to the time of rewards, He will say to those (who have charged, and imposed conditions), you have received your rewards on earth.

1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

paidforinfull
Nov 24th 2008, 12:46 AM
Sorry [though I am not sorry] to keep pounding this one out, but very clearly in the scriptures, it say's God gives freely. Without money and without price (conditions)

If what we do as servants in God's work (called and anointed by the Holy Spirit) Then it has to be given without money (charge) and without price (copyright)

The servant is not above his Master. If the Master say's it is to be freely given, then the servant say's it is to be freely given.

If God say's it is free, then it is free.

I have been accused of being legalistic and Pharasitical, and I am fine with that, but it is not the truth.

The reason I say this is, because God will have His work done. Regardless of how we mess things up, He has ordained what will be, and it will come to pass what He has spoken.

When it comes to the time of rewards, He will say to those (who have charged, and imposed conditions), you have received your rewards on earth.

1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

If something has been copyrighted, it doesn't necessarily mean you would have to pay for it - we have talked about this before. (The issue here is copyright - not making money from one's work - although God wouldn't have a problem with that either, if your bread and butter depended on it - so to speak.)

Something else bothers me about this thread - doesn't God's Word teach us that God alone knows the intentions of our hearts? Of course it does. In light thereof (and especially since the Bible does not condemn copyright), why don't we leave the judging to God, since He will judge wisely, and with justice?

PS - I don't think you are being legalistic and Pharasitical (although a bit judgmental), but I do think you are not seeing the complete picture. It is obvious that you have God's interests at heart, and that is exceedingly good: I praise God for that. All I am trying to do is show you that there are some reasons why people copyright material that you might not be aware of.

God bless.

Amos_with_goats
Nov 24th 2008, 02:53 AM
Part (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=30477)aker of Christ;

I did not see where you had replied to this. Just re-posting in case you had missed it.



Your point draws distinction between the creation of intangible (intellectual) property and concrete (real) property. I do not believe this distinction is supported scripturally. I have not seen where you had posted any scripture to support your premise.


Provided they both are 'doing as unto the Lord' I do not believe the Lord draws distinction between the product of the Labor of one who writes books, and one who makes houses or any other thing.

What scriptures are you using to come to the conclusion that "'copyright' is atheistic and illegal (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1871829#post1871829)"?



Just to expound a bit, I believe we must be VERY careful when drawing lines in the sand that are not in scripture. The Pharisees did the same at their peril.

Thanks,

Partaker of Christ
Nov 25th 2008, 01:17 AM
If something has been copyrighted, it doesn't necessarily mean you would have to pay for it - we have talked about this before. (The issue here is copyright - not making money from one's work - although God wouldn't have a problem with that either, if your bread and butter depended on it - so to speak.)

Hi again Paidforinfull!

Payment is required far more often then not.
Yes, God does have a problem with it, He says it is freely given, without money or price.
When one adds a 'charge' or a 'condition' then it is no longer freely given

I say again: If the Master say's it is free, then how dare the servant (who is not above his Master) how dare he say it has cost and condition?


Something else bothers me about this thread - doesn't God's Word teach us that God alone knows the intentions of our hearts? Of course it does. In light thereof (and especially since the Bible does not condemn copyright), why don't we leave the judging to God, since He will judge wisely, and with justice?

PS - I don't think you are being legalistic and Pharasitical (although a bit judgmental), but I do think you are not seeing the complete picture. It is obvious that you have God's interests at heart, and that is exceedingly good: I praise God for that. All I am trying to do is show you that there are some reasons why people copyright material that you might not be aware of.

God bless.

Thanks paidforinfull! but I don't see how I am being judgmental?
I am judging no person, but the issue of copyright.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 25th 2008, 01:35 AM
Part (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=30477)aker of Christ;

I did not see where you had replied to this. Just re-posting in case you had missed it.






Thanks,

Hi Amos!

Not quite sure if I understand your question.

Tangible or intangible, If the Lord has called us by His Spirit to do His work, then it is His work.

paidforinfull
Nov 25th 2008, 01:47 AM
Hi again Paidforinfull!

Payment is required far more often then not.
Yes, God does have a problem with it, He says it is freely given, without money or price.
When one adds a 'charge' or a 'condition' then it is no longer freely given

I say again: If the Master say's it is free, then how dare the servant (who is not above his Master) how dare he say it has cost and condition?

Thanks paidforinfull! but I don't see how I am being judgmental?
I am judging no person, but the issue of copyright.

Hi again, Partaker of Christ -

As I have said before, you are entitled to your opinion. If you want to continue believing copyright is 'atheistic' and 'illegal', you may of course do so.

As there is nothing I wish to add to that which I have already brought into this discussion, this will be my last post in this thread.

God bless.

Ekeak
Nov 25th 2008, 03:44 AM
What the world does with copyright, the world does. Yes we have to and must observe that law.

Should the Church, and those within the Church, 'copyright'?
I think what many in the Church fail to see, is that 'copyright' is atheistic in its claims.

Copyright says 'I' am the rights holder, the creator, the author, the originator of that work.

In it's true sense:
Copyright denies the True Creator, the True Originator, and the True Author.
Copyright denies God, and denies Him His Glory.

Those who are in the Church, and claim copyright © have by the legal definition, claimed that right illegally.

If my father built something for me, and I am given that gift, can I legally claim to be the creator, the author, the originator of that gift?

I know some would say about costs and time etc involved, but it really does not have to cost a great deal today. With the internet it is very easy to distribute words, and music and movie.

Tell me, how many unbelievers are going to pay hard earned money, to buy that book or buy that cd to listen to that song?

Don't you see how copyright limits what God can do through you. It limits God reaching and touching the unbeliever through you.

You've got a beautiful point, but think and honestly think hard (as I'm too lazy to do at times :P) how would the Athiests be tempted to change The Word if the Bible wasn't copyrighted? eh?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 26th 2008, 01:05 AM
You've got a beautiful point, but think and honestly think hard (as I'm too lazy to do at times :P) how would the Athiests be tempted to change The Word if the Bible wasn't copyrighted? eh?

Hi Ekeak!

How did the Truth of His Word, survive the thousands of years before copyright?

Pro 22:12 The eyes of the LORD preserve knowledge, and he overthroweth the words of the transgressor.

We serve the True and Living God, who Himself, is able to keep and preserve all things, according to His own purpose. I somehow do not believe He needs the help of man made copyright.

Another thought is, that I don't think we need fear an atheist as someone who wants to change what is written in scripture. A true atheist is one who has studied the word of God, and concluded [by what is written] that there is no God. If the scriptures had been altered to such a degree, he would have no bases for his arguments against.

My view is; that it is other religions, and cults that are the danger.

HisLeast
Nov 26th 2008, 10:39 PM
How did the Truth of His Word, survive the thousands of years before copyright?

Are you proposing that its sinful to pursue copyright just for biblical translations or do all copyrights immediately make one an immoral atheist?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 27th 2008, 02:09 AM
Are you proposing that its sinful to pursue copyright just for biblical translations or do all copyrights immediately make one an immoral atheist?

Do you propose to shackel what God makes free?

HisLeast
Nov 28th 2008, 05:22 PM
Do you propose to shackel what God makes free?

Would you just answer the question please?
Are you proposing that its sinful to pursue copyright just for biblical translations or do all copyrights immediately make one an immoral atheist?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 28th 2008, 07:17 PM
Would you just answer the question please?
Are you proposing that its sinful to pursue copyright just for biblical translations or do all copyrights immediately make one an immoral atheist?

Hi Hisleast!

I think I have explained well enough in this thread.
What is of the Spirit is of the Spirit, and what is of the flesh is of the flesh.

What God gives and what God does, is without money and without price.

If the Master say's it is freely given, then the servant in not above his Master.

If the Master say's it is freely given, and the servant say's it is with money and with price, then the servant has denied his Master. He has put himself above his Master.

Do we have the authority to override God's authority?

Is our God so weak, that He needs some man made 'copyright' law, to protect His work?

And for clarification, I did not call such a person an atheist, but what he does (by copyrighting God's work) is atheistic. He also makes a false claim, to being the originator, the author and creator of that work.

It was not God and Moses, who brought the Israelites out of Egypt, but God through Moses.
It is not Christ and me, but it is Christ in me.

HisLeast
Nov 28th 2008, 10:27 PM
Hi Hisleast!

I think I have explained well enough in this thread.
What is of the Spirit is of the Spirit, and what is of the flesh is of the flesh.

What God gives and what God does, is without money and without price.

If the Master say's it is freely given, then the servant in not above his Master.

If the Master say's it is freely given, and the servant say's it is with money and with price, then the servant has denied his Master. He has put himself above his Master.

Do we have the authority to override God's authority?

Is our God so weak, that He needs some man made 'copyright' law, to protect His work?

And for clarification, I did not call such a person an atheist, but what he does (by copyrighting God's work) is atheistic. He also makes a false claim, to being the originator, the author and creator of that work.

It was not God and Moses, who brought the Israelites out of Egypt, but God through Moses.
It is not Christ and me, but it is Christ in me.

Would you answer the question please? Yes or no will suffice.

Are you proposing that its sinful to pursue copyright just for biblical translations or do all copyrights immediately make one an immoral atheist?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 28th 2008, 11:27 PM
Would you answer the question please? Yes or no will suffice.

Are you proposing that its sinful to pursue copyright just for biblical translations or do all copyrights immediately make one an immoral atheist?

Perhaps a Braille translation would be helpful.

Spirit = from God (Originator, Author, Creator)
Flesh = from man (wars against the Spirit)

From God = God's work (freely given, without money and without price)
From man = man's work (pay me, honour me, pat me on the back)

God's work = Life (will never die)
Man's work = death (rust, rot, decay,)

God's work = Gold, Silver and Precious Stone (treasures in heaven)
Man's work = wood, hay and stubble (treasures on earth)

songladyjenn
Nov 29th 2008, 02:36 PM
hey there partaker are you finding it difficult to let your yes be yes and your no be no?

and while you are at it would you find it to difficult to provide what you believe the definition of a copyright actually is.

HisLeast
Nov 29th 2008, 06:57 PM
Perhaps a Braille translation would be helpful.

Spirit = from God (Originator, Author, Creator)
Flesh = from man (wars against the Spirit)

From God = God's work (freely given, without money and without price)
From man = man's work (pay me, honour me, pat me on the back)

God's work = Life (will never die)
Man's work = death (rust, rot, decay,)

God's work = Gold, Silver and Precious Stone (treasures in heaven)
Man's work = wood, hay and stubble (treasures on earth)

Would you answer the question please? Yes or no will suffice.

Are you proposing that its sinful to pursue copyright just for biblical translations or do all copyrights immediately make one an immoral atheist?

JesusMySavior
Nov 30th 2008, 02:15 AM
Are you aware that the Bible is copyrighted?

God bless


Which is complete and total heresy. The KJV is the only version that is NOT copyrighted, to my knowledge. I however like the NKJV but I have ripped the copyright page out of it. It makes me sick that people think they can claim ownership to the inspired Word of God... :mad:

tgallison
Nov 30th 2008, 08:05 PM
Which is complete and total heresy. The KJV is the only version that is NOT copyrighted, to my knowledge. I however like the NKJV but I have ripped the copyright page out of it. It makes me sick that people think they can claim ownership to the inspired Word of God... :mad:

The problem with the copyright is not the copyright itself, but the fact that it has to read differently to obtain a copyright.

The King James has a copyright in England, but not in the U.S. It wasn't necessary that it be changed to obtain a copyright. It was the King's copyright, and he deemed it eternal.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 1st 2008, 08:53 PM
hey there partaker are you finding it difficult to let your yes be yes and your no be no?

and while you are at it would you find it to difficult to provide what you believe the definition of a copyright actually is.

Not in the least!

It seems that some are just not seeing (or not wanting to see) the answer.

What part of "without money and without price" cannot be understood?

What part of 'what is of the Spirit is of the Spirit, and what is of the flesh is of the flesh' cannot be understood?

There are plenty of web site that will give you the definition of 'copyright'

Partaker of Christ
Dec 1st 2008, 08:57 PM
Would you answer the question please? Yes or no will suffice.

Are you proposing that its sinful to pursue copyright just for biblical translations or do all copyrights immediately make one an immoral atheist?

Would you prefer if I typed a little slower for you?

HisLeast
Dec 1st 2008, 09:20 PM
Would you prefer if I typed a little slower for you?

No. A simple yes or no to the question will suffice. Here it is again.
Are you proposing that its sinful to pursue copyright just for biblical translations or do all copyrights immediately make one an immoral atheist?

Partaker of Christ
Dec 1st 2008, 10:37 PM
No. A simple yes or no to the question will suffice. Here it is again.
Are you proposing that its sinful to pursue copyright just for biblical translations or do all copyrights immediately make one an immoral atheist?

I will try one more time for you.

What is of the Spirit, is of the Spirit.

You ask 'is it sinful for biblical translations to be copyrighted'

Are these translations a godly work, or the work of God?
There are many things that can have a form of godliness, but deny the power of God. It is not my place to judge each mans work.

If by the Spirit of God, that man is doing God's work, then it is sinful to copyright it.

If it is of the flesh, it is of the flesh.
If it is of the flesh, it has no life to give, and it will burn up with everything else of the world.

HisLeast
Dec 1st 2008, 10:52 PM
Are you even reading the question?

Partaker of Christ
Dec 1st 2008, 11:10 PM
Are you even reading the question?

Yes I have read the question, do you not understand the answer?

I do not propose copyrighting any specific thing as sinful, except 'copyrighting' that work, when that work is the work of God.

songladyjenn
Dec 2nd 2008, 03:44 AM
Not in the least!

It seems that some are just not seeing (or not wanting to see) the answer.

What part of "without money and without price" cannot be understood?

What part of 'what is of the Spirit is of the Spirit, and what is of the flesh is of the flesh' cannot be understood?

There are plenty of web site that will give you the definition of 'copyright'

I am aware that there are plenty of websites that contain definitions of copyright. I even own a couple of dictionaries, imagine that. My question was personal, how do YOU PERSONALLY define 'copyright'.

What about obtaining a copyright violates "without money and without price"? What does one have to do with another.

And you still haven't yet explained how an author or musician (for example) obtaining an income from their work is different than you obtaining an income for the work that you do. Does God not gift you with the talent and necessary skills to perform your job? Do you not give God the glory for everything that you do? Is the work that you do somehow "of the flesh", if so brother you need to find a new job.

You've made some bold statements in this thread that those who obtain a copyright are being "atheistic". Do you not realize that you are referring to children of the Most High as not believing in their Father? Do you not realize what it is you are saying?

His Least has asked you a very straight-forward question and simply asked for a yes or no answer. To which you responded with


I do not propose copyrighting any specific thing as sinful, except 'copyrighting' that work, when that work is the work of God.Do you not realize that you have contradicted yourself. Unless you are saying that a song and/or book that deals with Theology and a song and/or book about something 'other' than God have two different sources even if they are written by the same author/song writer who is a child of God. Is this what you are saying. I've got to tell ya I've never been a big fan of the riddler and after re-reading this thread I'm not the only one who thinks that perhaps you may be (and please don't take this the wrong way) one fry short of a happy meal brother. You can't answer simple questions and you are saying the same things over and over again. If you did not answer a question so others could comprehend what you were saying there would not be the need to ask you the same questions over and over...perhaps you should re-think your answers and try to re-word them so that the rest of us here on planet earth can understand with comprehension what you are trying to say.

Peace :)