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stillforgiven
Nov 18th 2008, 04:59 AM
This question is a spin off from the one about Christians surrendering their guns, and it is posed to those who said it would be a sin to not give them over.

How do you feel about the people, many of them Christians, who hid Jews during WWII? One of my favorite books is The Hiding Place by Corrie Ten Boom who's Christian family was part of the underground resistance and hid Jews in their own home until they were arrested and taken to concentration camps. She tells of a pastor in her town who was totally freaked out that they would do such a thing as hide Jews and smuggle them to safety.

What do you say? If not handing in guns is wrong, was it also wrong to hide and smuggle the Jews?

Please don't see this as a hypothetical question. I really do want to know what you think. Thanks.

Rufus_1611
Nov 18th 2008, 11:01 AM
Civil governments go bad. When they go bad and resist the Lord, it becomes necessary for the Lord's servants to resist the government. The hiding of the Jews was proper, adhering to government disobedience of the law by causing the sacrifice of lawful/constitutional protections is improper.

AlainaJ
Nov 18th 2008, 01:46 PM
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. I beleive God wants us to stand for right..thus civil disobediene. The martyrs did......afterall aren't we supposed to give our life for Christ?

daughter
Nov 18th 2008, 01:50 PM
There is a world of difference between hiding a human being, in hope of saving their life, and hiding a material object.

A gun is not sentient, it cannot suffer, it is not precious in the sight of God. Jesus didn't die for guns.

He died for human beings.

If you hide a weapon, thinking that you may one day need it, you are putting your faith in the weapon to protect you. It's up to you to decide whether it's better to obey the laws of the land, and trust God to protect you.

I'll give you an example. Before I was Christian I was extremely involved in martial arts. Because I always wanted to be "ready" to protect myself, I kept my hair short (so nobody could grab it - I've been injured that way in the past) and I was generally conducting subliminal "risk" assessments in new situations. (For example, if I was in a room, where were the exits, and positioning myself safely from folks who could be a threat.)

I realise now that this was extreme, and intensly silly... the one time I've needed protection from physical harm since I became Christian, I didn't need to raise a hand, or do my "martial" routine.

Now I've relaxed, my hair has grown out, I can walk into a room without the whole "risk assessment" thing going on.

Because I trust God to look after me, I don't have to carry a lot of baggage that - while it made me physically safe - helped to imprison me.

I've never owned a gun. But I imagine that while knowing it's there can make you feel safe, it can also make you feel anxious... you must always wonder where it is, you must keep checking it's working properly, and you have to be concerned that if a perp saw it soon enough they would be more likely to respond with deadly force than if you didn't have it.

I'm not saying that Christians should not have guns.

But I am saying that having a gun is not in the least bit comparable to saving Jews, or any other human being.

If you save another human, you know perfectly well that you are obeying God's command to love your neighbour.

Hiding a gun from the authorities is not at all the same thing.

daughter
Nov 18th 2008, 01:51 PM
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. I beleive God wants us to stand for right..thus civil disobediene. The martyrs did......afterall aren't we supposed to give our life for Christ?

Which martyrs hid weapons from the authorities?:hmm:

AlainaJ
Nov 18th 2008, 01:55 PM
But does not God give us things to use...like guns?? If we are on a roof top and there is a flood and a boat comes by God may want us to get on that boat..he uses the boat to save us.
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

God can use sword, he can use donkeys, he can use whores...to limit God is playing God..but that is me.

For each of us will one day stand before Him..so let us be ready to give account....that is what is important. God speaks to each of us in different ways..we can not judge a message God sends..

AlainaJ
Nov 18th 2008, 02:02 PM
Which martyrs hid weapons from the authorities?:hmm: If you go back through history you will see it...including during war times..these people gave their lives for what they believed in. Ok...lets say that I am in the french resistance and this is a true story. In order to liberate their country from the evil of Hitler, guns, ammo, radios ect..and alot of illegal contrababd was hidden. Many, Many people died for a radio, for maps, for many material things becuase with out those "illegal" things thier nation was doomed to the evils of Hitler. Through out history many people became martys for what they beleive in....If the govt. outlawed Bibles like in many countires, would hide yours or surrender it??? If worship was forbidden woud you not worship?? When Daniel was forbudden to pray, did he not , pray by the window?? Did not the 3 hebrew children perform civil disobedience and refused to bow....the consequenses were death..but tehy obeyed God.

diffangle
Nov 18th 2008, 02:19 PM
Civil disobedience - is it ever right for a Christian?

Was it considered civil disobedience when Yahushua turned over the money changers tables?

daughter
Nov 18th 2008, 02:26 PM
Alaina, the question was which Christian martyrs hid weapons from the authorities? You have cited Peter and John, who continued to preach in the name of Jesus. You have mentioned Daniel, who continued to worship God openly, and the Hebrew children, who refused to pray in front of a statue of the king. But then you have moved from them to the French resistance. While I have a lot of respect for them, the question isn't what secular grassroots resistance organisations have done, the question is can you find a biblical mandate for retaining weapons, when the government tells us to hand them in.

Obviously there are occasions when civil disobedience is the only biblical response. But if you're going to argue biblically that guns should be hidden from the government, you need to find some actual bible texts that speak to the issue.

People praying and preaching in public does not speak to the issue of weapons ownership. I find your logic somewhat baffling.

Fenris
Nov 18th 2008, 02:31 PM
Exodus 1:15 And the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah; 16 and he said: 'When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, ye shall look upon the birthstool: if it be a son, then ye shall kill him; but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.' 17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men-children alive.18 And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them: 'Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive?' 19 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh: 'Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwife come unto them.'

Disobedient and liars.

How does God views this? 21 And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that He made them houses.

daughter
Nov 18th 2008, 02:38 PM
Yes, and those verses indicate that it was perfectly correct of people to hide Jews from the Nazis, or to lie to authorities in order to save lives.

But again, it doesn't speak to weapons.

Perhaps the problem is that this thread is addressing two issues.

Is it ever right for a Christian to be civilly disobedient. (The Bible does seem to give ample room for "yes.")

Then we would need a thread as to what issues are important enough to justify such disobedience.

AlainaJ
Nov 18th 2008, 02:47 PM
Yes, and those verses indicate that it was perfectly correct of people to hide Jews from the Nazis, or to lie to authorities in order to save lives.

But again, it doesn't speak to weapons.

Perhaps the problem is that this thread is addressing two issues.

Is it ever right for a Christian to be civilly disobedient. (The Bible does seem to give ample room for "yes.")

Then we would need a thread as to what issues are important enough to justify such disobedience.
I agree...but once again it would be between that person and God.As I said earlier...we can't say one form is ok and another is not.. My point is hiding Bibles??Should Persecuted Christians do that???If the government owtlawed all Christian material would you surrender it..after all it is not a person??

I will add, that I a supporter of the second amendment and was not our revolutionary war the highest form of civil disobedience..but maybe becuase I am an american..;)

diffangle
Nov 18th 2008, 03:01 PM
Yes, and those verses indicate that it was perfectly correct of people to hide Jews from the Nazis, or to lie to authorities in order to save lives.

But again, it doesn't speak to weapons.


Guns can be a vehicle to saving lives though, take a man or woman with a house full of kids to protect, they're going to be able to protect those children from someone trying to do them harm much easier with a gun(especially if the criminal has a weapon in hand) than with their bare hands. Weapons aren't a bad thing to have, there are numerous examples in the Scriptures of weapons being used by those on YHWH's side(ie: King David).

daughter
Nov 18th 2008, 03:12 PM
Yes, that's true. But I was thinking that when God wants His people to have weapons, He arms them. Remember when Mordecai becomes Prime Minister, and the King is moved to allow the Jews to arm themselves against their persecutors?

I know there is a place for weapons, but in my experience (and I have a lot of pre Christian experience when it comes to civil disobedience and self defense) obsession about weapons training can become a mental and spiritual bind. It was a huge relief to let go of the feeling that I have to constantly be ready to defend myself.

Last year two armed men broke into my house past midnight. (Okay, they were only armed with a knife, but still alarming when you're a single mum with a kid and you find them in your boy's bedroom.) I didn't have to raise a finger to defend us... somehow the fear of God was put into them, and my son and I were fine.

I trust God to defend me now, whereas before I'd have leaned on my own strength. (And possibly had a great story to tell about it... but that's neither here nor there.)

I prefer trusting God, and not worrying about keeping my hair short, my exits clearly marked, my back to the wall. To be honest, I don't often need protecting, and when I do, God has my back.

On the other hand, the US is a radically different culture, I understand you do things differently there. But if God wants you armed, He'll arm you, just as He armed the Jews when they needed to fight against their enemies. If a government tells you to give up your arms... then I would assume God doesn't want you armed.

After all, the heart of the King is in His hands.

I would keep the Bible though... the Bible is the Word of God. And I'd die to protect my right to share God's word. I'd never die for a gun though.

Rufus_1611
Nov 18th 2008, 03:26 PM
Yes, that's true. But I was thinking that when God wants His people to have weapons, He arms them. ...

God does want His people to have weapons, and is why He gave us the 2nd amendment. It is the Philistines that are always trying to take the weapons away from God's people.


"17 And the spoilers came out of the camp of the Philistines in three companies: one company turned unto the way that leadeth to Ophrah, unto the land of Shual: 18 And another company turned the way to Bethhoron: and another company turned to the way of the border that looketh to the valley of Zeboim toward the wilderness. 19 Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears: 20 But all the Israelites went down to the Philistines, to sharpen every man his share, and his coulter, and his axe, and his mattock. 21 Yet they had a file for the mattocks, and for the coulters, and for the forks, and for the axes, and to sharpen the goads. 22 So it came to pass in the day of battle, that there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people that were with Saul and Jonathan: but with Saul and with Jonathan his son was there found." - 1 Samuel 13:17-21

Today's Philistines want to take them away in direct opposition to the rule of law. Christians ought to obey the law.

HisLeast
Nov 18th 2008, 03:31 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't civil disobedience defined by its non-violent resistance? The idea of guns, and the will to use them, in the face of oppressive government is a worthy discussion, but completely antithetical to "civil" disobedience.

Fenris
Nov 18th 2008, 03:44 PM
God does want His people to have weapons, and is why He gave us the 2nd amendment. It is the Philistines that are always trying to take the weapons away from God's people.

I feel obligated to add on a non-religious, but perfectly practical reason for keeping arms. For the better part of the last 20 centuries, Jews in Europe were not allowed to own weapons. When you cease owning weapons, you eventually forget how to use them, an leave yourself open to abuse by those who do. The Jewish experience in Europe, from the Crusades and the Inquisition to the Holocaust, certainly bear out this lesson.

daughter
Nov 18th 2008, 03:50 PM
Native Irish weren't allowed to keep weapons either, under Britain's penal laws. No wonder we did so badly in our attempts at sedition. Did you ever hear of the battle of vinegar hill? A bunch of rebels turned up to fight the British, muttering about the blummin French who didn't turn up in time.

It's hard to fight crack troops when you're armed with spades and pitchforks. :rolleyes:

Add to that Irish bagpipes, which are played between the knees, and it's no wonder things went pear shaped.

diffangle
Nov 18th 2008, 04:02 PM
I feel obligated to add on a non-religious, but perfectly practical reason for keeping arms. For the better part of the last 20 centuries, Jews in Europe were not allowed to own weapons. When you cease owning weapons, you eventually forget how to use them, an leave yourself open to abuse by those who do. The Jewish experience in Europe, from the Crusades and the Inquisition to the Holocaust, certainly bear out this lesson.


Native Irish weren't allowed to keep weapons either, under Britain's penal laws. No wonder we did so badly in our attempts at sedition. Did you ever hear of the battle of vinegar hill? A bunch of rebels turned up to fight the British, muttering about the blummin French who didn't turn up in time.

It's hard to fight crack troops when you're armed with spades and pitchforks. :rolleyes:

Add to that Irish bagpipes, which are played between the knees, and it's no wonder things went pear shaped.
Exact reasons why the people should not allow the government to take away their arms... every time the gov does that... their evil intentions follow.

apothanein kerdos
Nov 18th 2008, 04:12 PM
I am extremely pro-gun ownership. I believe it allows for hunting, recreation, and self-defense.

At the same time, the Bible doesn't afford to us the right to own weapons - there is no command of God to do so. Thus, if the government said "Hand over your weapons," we would regrettably have to oblige to this corrupt government (only a corrupt government, fearful of rebellion, would ever ask for its citizens weapons).

There are issues worth disobeying (when they contradict God's law) and issues that aren't worth it (when God's law is silent on them).

diffangle
Nov 18th 2008, 04:25 PM
Thus, if the government said "Hand over your weapons," we would regrettably have to oblige to this corrupt government (only a corrupt government, fearful of rebellion, would ever ask for its citizens weapons).

There are issues worth disobeying (when they contradict God's law) and issues that aren't worth it (when God's law is silent on them).
But that's the thing AK, history shows us that a gov that forces people to give up their arms are up to no good... so while there is no specific command to keep guns when the gov wants to disarm the people, there's also no specific command to hide Jews when they are being persecuted... point is, is it all falls under the umbrella of being able to disobey evil governemts when it comes obeying them or YHWH.

Rufus_1611
Nov 18th 2008, 04:56 PM
I am extremely pro-gun ownership. I believe it allows for hunting, recreation, and self-defense.

At the same time, the Bible doesn't afford to us the right to own weapons - there is no command of God to do so.


"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." - Luke 22:30


Thus, if the government said "Hand over your weapons," we would regrettably have to oblige to this corrupt government (only a corrupt government, fearful of rebellion, would ever ask for its citizens weapons). If one obeys a corrupt government does that not make one a servant of corruption?


There are issues worth disobeying (when they contradict God's law) and issues that aren't worth it (when God's law is silent on them).

moonglow
Nov 18th 2008, 05:00 PM
God does want His people to have weapons, and is why He gave us the 2nd amendment. It is the Philistines that are always trying to take the weapons away from God's people.


"17 And the spoilers came out of the camp of the Philistines in three companies: one company turned unto the way that leadeth to Ophrah, unto the land of Shual: 18 And another company turned the way to Bethhoron: and another company turned to the way of the border that looketh to the valley of Zeboim toward the wilderness. 19 Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears: 20 But all the Israelites went down to the Philistines, to sharpen every man his share, and his coulter, and his axe, and his mattock. 21 Yet they had a file for the mattocks, and for the coulters, and for the forks, and for the axes, and to sharpen the goads. 22 So it came to pass in the day of battle, that there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people that were with Saul and Jonathan: but with Saul and with Jonathan his son was there found." - 1 Samuel 13:17-21

Today's Philistines want to take them away in direct opposition to the rule of law. Christians ought to obey the law.

How do you figure God gave us the second amendment?



diffangle:But that's the thing AK, history shows us that a gov that forces people to give up their arms are up to no good... so while there is no specific command to keep guns when the gov wants to disarm the people, there's also no specific command to hide Jews when they are being persecuted... point is, is it all falls under the umbrella of being able to disobey evil governemts when it comes obeying them or YHWH.

Actually there is something in the bible about hiding Jews..

Joshua 2
Rahab Hides the Spies
1 Now Joshua the son of Nun sent out two men from Acacia Grove to spy secretly, saying, “Go, view the land, especially Jericho.”
So they went, and came to the house of a harlot named Rahab, and lodged there. 2 And it was told the king of Jericho, saying, “Behold, men have come here tonight from the children of Israel to search out the country.”

3 So the king of Jericho sent to Rahab, saying, “Bring out the men who have come to you, who have entered your house, for they have come to search out all the country.”

4 Then the woman took the two men and hid them. So she said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from. 5 And it happened as the gate was being shut, when it was dark, that the men went out. Where the men went I do not know; pursue them quickly, for you may overtake them.” 6 (But she had brought them up to the roof and hidden them with the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order on the roof.) 7 Then the men pursued them by the road to the Jordan, to the fords. And as soon as those who pursued them had gone out, they shut the gate.

Fast forward to the NT:

Hebrews 11:31
By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

James 2:25
In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

Her name is still spoken for the great thing she did.

I agree with what daughter is saying and thinks she explain this all very well and gives a good argument.

God bless

Fenris
Nov 18th 2008, 05:06 PM
There's another undercurrent of ideas here:

Is it possible to chart our own destiny by our actions, or must we simply pray to God and leave it in His hands?

AlainaJ
Nov 18th 2008, 05:06 PM
I think we need to take gun out of this...because we all known that the two sides in that battle will never see eye to eye.

Can we replace "gun" with Bibles and Religious Materials? Can we replace Bible with food??? If the government made you turn over all your food to them..meaning certain death would you?? What if the government wanted a relative...exactly like in Nazi Germany, would turn that person over to be killed?

Now if we say the second amendment is not given us to by God, then neither is the first or the 4th. Perhaps we should allow illegal searches and seizures. If we start taking away each amendment..we are in trouble..next we will lose religious freedom and freedom is speech....


But let's stick with wilfully disobeying a corrupt and tyrannical governemt.

tango
Nov 18th 2008, 05:12 PM
Exact reasons why the people should not allow the government to take away their arms... every time the gov does that... their evil intentions follow.

When the "great multitude with swords and clubs" came to take Jesus from the Garden of Gethsemane their intentions were entirely evil, but he didn't put up a fight at all.

Rufus_1611
Nov 18th 2008, 05:13 PM
How do you figure God gave us the second amendment? ...because I believe it to be a self-evident, inalienable right. To have the right to life, you must have the ability to protect your life. If you give up that God given right, then you are placing the protection of your life into the hands of those wielding the guns. While I have faith in God to protect me, I still lock my doors and I do not presume upon His protection by being negligent in the protection of my life, my wife's life and the lives of my children.


"When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:" - Luke 11:21

Fenris
Nov 18th 2008, 05:15 PM
When the "great multitude with swords and clubs" came to take Jesus from the Garden of Gethsemane their intentions were entirely evil, but he didn't put up a fight at all.
In general it's counterproductive to compare man's behavior to God's behavior.

tango
Nov 18th 2008, 05:18 PM
In general it's counterproductive to compare man's behavior to God's behavior.

If we're trying to live more Godly lives it doesn't hurt to have a role model :)

Fenris
Nov 18th 2008, 05:22 PM
If we're trying to live more Godly lives it doesn't hurt to have a role model :)
Ah.

So, using God as a role model, in your opinion it would be acceptable to nuke a city like Sodom?

Fenris
Nov 18th 2008, 05:24 PM
If we're trying to live more Godly lives it doesn't hurt to have a role model :)I have to revisit this phrase, because I find it so interesting. :hmm:

I don't think any Jew wants to be 'like God'. We just want to follow the rules He gave us.

tango
Nov 18th 2008, 05:27 PM
Ah.

So, using God as a role model, in your opinion it would be acceptable to nuke a city like Sodom?

I was actually referring to the way Jesus behaved while he walked this earth. During that time he didn't go destroying any cities.


I have to revisit this phrase, because I find it so interesting. :hmm:

I don't think any Jew wants to be 'like God'. We just want to follow the rules He gave us.

For "Godly" read "Christlike", if that helps :hmm:

moonglow
Nov 18th 2008, 05:28 PM
"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." - Luke 22:30

If one obeys a corrupt government does that not make one a servant of corruption?

You got the wrong verse..its 36.

That verse is taken out of content anyway:

35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”
So they said, “Nothing.”

36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”
And He said to them, “It is enough.”

Yet we see in Matthew 26 that Jesus did NOT want them to use the sword!

51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”

55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me. 56 But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.”
Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled.

After this the corrupt governments...the Jewish leaders, Roman a pagan nations that oppressed and terrorized the Jews and then the Christian DID jail, beat and kill many Christian...yes they were corrupted, but we never see on Christian breaking the law except to keep preaching about Christ and we never see them use a sword even in self defense...

God bless

Fenris
Nov 18th 2008, 05:31 PM
I was actually referring to the way Jesus behaved while he walked this earth. During that time he didn't go destroying any cities.So sometimes it's ok to destroy cities and punish the wicked, and other times it's not? How to we determine which is which?




For "Godly" read "Christlike", if that helps :hmm:
To a Christian I would think the two words mean the same thing.

daughter
Nov 18th 2008, 05:35 PM
But that's the thing AK, history shows us that a gov that forces people to give up their arms are up to no good... so while there is no specific command to keep guns when the gov wants to disarm the people, there's also no specific command to hide Jews when they are being persecuted... point is, is it all falls under the umbrella of being able to disobey evil governemts when it comes obeying them or YHWH.
The whole spirit of the commandment not to kill tells us to do whatever we can to save human life. Jesus taught us that the commandments are not just to be adhered to "in the letter of the law", but spiritually.

And as Moonglow says, Joshua speaks to this issue. It is always right to protect innocent lives. David was protected against a corrupt king, and Rahab hid the spies. There is precedent.

tango
Nov 18th 2008, 05:38 PM
So sometimes it's ok to destroy cities and punish the wicked, and other times it's not? How to we determine which is which?

To a Christian I would think the two words mean the same thing.

I'm not going to tell God what he should and shouldn't be doing. But while Jesus walked this earth as a man he didn't go destroying cities, and therefore I won't either. That works for me.

To a Christian a Godly life and a Christlike life are synonymous, as long as we read "Godly" as being "pleasing to God" rather than "acting like God has acted" and don't go wiping out cities because of their sins.

Rom 12:19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore "IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM; IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP COALS OF FIRE ON HIS HEAD."

I'll leave the fire and brimstone bit to God, he does it so much better than I ever could.

moonglow
Nov 18th 2008, 05:41 PM
...because I believe it to be a self-evident, inalienable right. To have the right to life, you must have the ability to protect your life. If you give up that God given right, then you are placing the protection of your life into the hands of those wielding the guns. While I have faith in God to protect me, I still lock my doors and I do not presume upon His protection by being negligent in the protection of my life, my wife's life and the lives of my children.


"When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:" - Luke 11:21

I think you need to read the next verse of Luke 11:21

22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

None of that is about a physical person breaking into a physical home anyway..its a parable about satan and guarding our hearts against him...you can see that when you read in it content.

I don't have a gun and so far God has protected me and my son very well and I expect He will continue doing so...sometimes I even forget to lock my doors but we have remained safe..which I thank Him for. I won't ever probably have a gun...too many children are accidentally killed all the time from guns in the home...in fact more die that way, then by a home invaded who comes in and kills them.

Besides when you have to keep the gun separated from the bullets and locked up or out of reach of children...by the time you realized someone was breaking in your home..and ran and got the gun then the bullets and the put them in the gun...well it would probably be way too late...

moonglow
Nov 18th 2008, 05:45 PM
The whole spirit of the commandment not to kill tells us to do whatever we can to save human life. Jesus taught us that the commandments are not just to be adhered to "in the letter of the law", but spiritually.

And as Moonglow says, Joshua speaks to this issue. It is always right to protect innocent lives. David was protected against a corrupt king, and Rahab hid the spies. There is precedent.

Yea...you know when I was typing that I felt like a lawyer looking for a precedent for hiding the Jews...lol...

"Lets see, there was this case back in 1500 BC where this lady hid some Jews...and the Judge ruled it correct...righteous..." :lol:

AlainaJ
Nov 18th 2008, 05:45 PM
Can we please replace gun with something else...becuase the issue really doesn't have to do with guns..because that just divides us and serves do purpose but to cause bickering.

So, my question is can we replace gun with Bible, with Food? Anything that is not living..but an object.

Do you allow a loved one to be killed..would you turn them over?

Ok, another side issue..if you saw your daughter being raped and murdered..would you just stand there and say, God will protect her..or perhaps God woud want to you to shoot the rapist and saved your daughters life??

Fenris
Nov 18th 2008, 05:45 PM
I'm not going to tell God what he should and shouldn't be doing. But while Jesus walked this earth as a man he didn't go destroying cities, and therefore I won't either. That works for me.And that's your right. But then you are essentially relying on other, 'less good' people who will use violence to protect you from bad people.


To a Christian a Godly life and a Christlike life are synonymous, as long as we read "Godly" as being "pleasing to God" rather than "acting like God has acted" and don't go wiping out cities because of their sins.This contradicts what you said above. You feel that violence is bad because Jesus didn't use any- so now you're trying to act like God.


I'll leave the fire and brimstone bit to God, he does it so much better than I ever could.
Unless he's walking the earth, apparently.

AlainaJ
Nov 18th 2008, 05:48 PM
[
I don't have a gun and so far God has protected me and my son very well and I expect He will continue doing so...sometimes I even forget to lock my doors but we have remained safe..which I thank Him for. I won't ever probably have a gun...too many children are accidentally killed all the time from guns in the home...in fact more die that way, then by a home invaded who comes in and kills them.

Besides when you have to keep the gun separated from the bullets and locked up or out of reach of children...by the time you realized someone was breaking in your home..and ran and got the gun then the bullets and the put them in the gun...well it would probably be way too late...[/quote]

We have our concealed carry and carry a firearm as does mu husband.. I also know very Godly people who would not be her today except for a gun. They are alive because they did have a firearm and knew how to use it. So, alot of folks who have saved lives with guns..may disagree.

daughter
Nov 18th 2008, 05:49 PM
I think we need to take gun out of this...because we all known that the two sides in that battle will never see eye to eye.

Can we replace "gun" with Bibles and Religious Materials? Can we replace Bible with food??? If the government made you turn over all your food to them..meaning certain death would you?? What if the government wanted a relative...exactly like in Nazi Germany, would turn that person over to be killed?

Now if we say the second amendment is not given us to by God, then neither is the first or the 4th. Perhaps we should allow illegal searches and seizures. If we start taking away each amendment..we are in trouble..next we will lose religious freedom and freedom is speech....


But let's stick with wilfully disobeying a corrupt and tyrannical governemt.

I think there will come a time when some generation (not necessarily our own) will have to decide what issues are worth obeying the government on. At the moment there are people living under oppressive regimes who choose to disobey the government, and have bible studies and prayer meetings.

The book of Revelation speaks of a time when a government will demand that it's people can only buy or sell if they've given their full spiritual allegiance to government. Obviously the answer in this situation would be to starve, rather than worship a false and tyranical system.

These things have happened through history, and the details of how people arrived at their decisions, and the process by which they won through are known only to God.

We have to decide what is the most important thing for us. If I was starving to death, would I have the strength not to bow the knee to baal? I don't know, I've never starved. I spoke to my great grand aunt when I was a little girl, and she told me how her parents fed the family shoe leather, and stripped the bark off trees... but they never went to the soup kitchen on a Friday, because (they didn't know any better, they couldn't read) they thought it would dishonour God to eat meat on a Friday. The soup kitchens routinely put meat in the soup, in order to make sure that only deserving patriots would eat. For my great great grandparents, that was a choice that they made at great personal cost, because they loved God.

It's very easy for us, in reasonable comfort, to say what others should and should not do, or even what we like to think we might do. We've not been tested yet.

I think the most important thing for us to do is to accept that a lot of this is in the realm of speculative fiction. Of all the nations in the world, I think the US is the least likely to lose it's guns.

What is happening now is perhaps more important. Are we prepared to stand up for our faith despite being laughed at, or potentially losing out at promotions time at work. (I know Christians who haven't been promoted in this country, because they were considered "close minded" and "closet bigots".)

Is it right to stand out from a group of nice well meaning people, by sticking to uncomfortable, but incontrovertable, Bible truths?

That's more the sort of challenge that we're likely to be faced with.

daughter
Nov 18th 2008, 05:54 PM
[
I don't have a gun and so far God has protected me and my son very well and I expect He will continue doing so...sometimes I even forget to lock my doors but we have remained safe..which I thank Him for. I won't ever probably have a gun...too many children are accidentally killed all the time from guns in the home...in fact more die that way, then by a home invaded who comes in and kills them.

Besides when you have to keep the gun separated from the bullets and locked up or out of reach of children...by the time you realized someone was breaking in your home..and ran and got the gun then the bullets and the put them in the gun...well it would probably be way too late...

We have our concealed carry and carry a firearm as does mu husband.. I also know very Godly people who would not be her today except for a gun. They are alive because they did have a firearm and knew how to use it. So, alot of folks who have saved lives with guns..may disagree.

I should point out that a very early memory of mine is my standing pointing a gun at my brother. I'd found it under one of my uncle's pillows, and thought it was a toy. At the time it was the "coolest" thing I'd seen, and couldn't believe how heavy it was. I'm just glad that at four I wasn't strong enough to pull the trigger.

The argument as to how to be responsible and keep guns out of children's hands is an important one. But not necessarily right for this thread.

tango
Nov 18th 2008, 05:59 PM
And that's your right. But then you are essentially relying on other, 'less good' people who will use violence to protect you from bad people.


Not necessarily. Since becoming a Christian I feel none of the background fear I used to feel as a matter of routine. If God has a particular purpose in mind for me then he's not going to let anything happen to me until I've fulfilled that purpose.

Incidentally, even before becoming a Christian I didn't rely on physical force for protection either.



This contradicts what you said above. You feel that violence is bad because Jesus didn't use any- so now you're trying to act like God.


I'm trying to live my life in a way that would be pleasing to God. Looking at decisions through a "what would Jesus do" filter doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.



Unless he's walking the earth, apparently.
I wasn't aware God was expected to maintain a steady stream of destruction :rolleyes:

daughter
Nov 18th 2008, 06:04 PM
I wasn't aware God was expected to maintain a steady stream of destruction :rolleyes:
He's got us to do that for Him! :rofl:

Sorry, it's not funny, but somehow you made me chuckle.

moonglow
Nov 18th 2008, 06:16 PM
[

moonglow: I don't have a gun and so far God has protected me and my son very well and I expect He will continue doing so...sometimes I even forget to lock my doors but we have remained safe..which I thank Him for. I won't ever probably have a gun...too many children are accidentally killed all the time from guns in the home...in fact more die that way, then by a home invaded who comes in and kills them.

Besides when you have to keep the gun separated from the bullets and locked up or out of reach of children...by the time you realized someone was breaking in your home..and ran and got the gun then the bullets and the put them in the gun...well it would probably be way too late...

We have our concealed carry and carry a firearm as does mu husband.. I also know very Godly people who would not be her today except for a gun. They are alive because they did have a firearm and knew how to use it. So, alot of folks who have saved lives with guns..may disagree.
[/QUOTE]

I could add I lost a brother in law due to a hand gun and we could go back and forth on that producing no fruit..so why bother. Right now people have the right to bear arms...the topic was, 'is civil disobedience ever right for a Christian'...obviously this has been answered...for certain situations such as hiding people to save them, we have bibical grounds to do so. And of course anything that would cause us to sin against God we can refuse to do...many examples of that in the bible. The sticky one is though if we have the right, from a bibical point of view to have weapons or not...

People need to be posting verses IN content that shows we could/should disobey the government in order to keep any arms...so far all I have seen is a few verses taken out of content...

God bless

Fenris
Nov 18th 2008, 06:21 PM
Not necessarily. Since becoming a Christian I feel none of the background fear I used to feel as a matter of routine. If God has a particular purpose in mind for me then he's not going to let anything happen to me until I've fulfilled that purpose.Maybe your purpose is to save someone else. Possibly with a gun?


Incidentally, even before becoming a Christian I didn't rely on physical force for protection either.Well, that tells us that your pacifism is not Christianity-based. :hmm:




I'm trying to live my life in a way that would be pleasing to God. Looking at decisions through a "what would Jesus do" filter doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.Hmm. Possibly this happened because Christians jettisoned the Law. :hmm: Interesting.




I wasn't aware God was expected to maintain a steady stream of destruction :rolleyes:
Well, there must be some criteria that He follows.

diffangle
Nov 18th 2008, 06:29 PM
Actually there is something in the bible about hiding Jews

Sure there's something in the Word about hiding Jews, just as there's something about weapons being used to save people(ie: David and Goliath), my point was that neither is a commandment... yet they're both a good thing in His eyes.

diffangle
Nov 18th 2008, 06:31 PM
The whole spirit of the commandment not to kill tells us to do whatever we can to save human life. Jesus taught us that the commandments are not just to be adhered to "in the letter of the law", but spiritually.

And as Moonglow says, Joshua speaks to this issue. It is always right to protect innocent lives. David was protected against a corrupt king, and Rahab hid the spies. There is precedent.
Weren't weapons involved in that protection?

teddyv
Nov 18th 2008, 06:33 PM
Sure there's something in the Word about hiding Jews, just as there's something about weapons being used to save people(ie: David and Goliath), my point was that neither is a commandment... yet they're both a good thing in His eyes.
I would think that use of weapons in a time of war is a different issue than is being discussed here.

daughter
Nov 18th 2008, 06:36 PM
Weren't weapons involved in that protection?
David's constitutional right to bear arms was not the issue when he was on the lam from Saul. And Rahab didn't use weapons to protect the Hebrew spies.

daughter
Nov 18th 2008, 06:36 PM
I would think that use of weapons in a time of war is a different issue than is being discussed here.
Ah. You said it better. ;)

diffangle
Nov 18th 2008, 06:51 PM
David's constitutional right to bear arms was not the issue when he was on the lam from Saul.
What I'm saying is that weapons aren't considered bad in YHWH's eyes and are used to protect those that are His(as shown in Scriptures)... a man is called to protect his family, if all hell is breaking loose and the gov wants to take your guns away(they are up to no good as history tells us) a man should not be forced to give up his weapon if it could be used to protect his family and/or other innocent lives.



And Rahab didn't use weapons to protect the Hebrew spies.
Did the spies use weapons?

diffangle
Nov 18th 2008, 07:00 PM
Gun-toting missionary saves lives -- again Jeff Johnson - OneNewsNow - 7/24/2008 10:05:00 AMhttp://s9.addthis.com/button1-addthis.gif (http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php)



http://www.onenewsnow.com/uploadedImages/Media/Images/Maps/SouthAfrica.jpgA Christian missionary in South Africa has used a gun to save his life and the lives of others -- for a second time.


In July 1993, Charl van Wyk (http://www.charlvanwyk.info/) drew his handgun as terrorists began the St. James Massacre in Cape Town. Van Wyk wounded one of the terrorists and eventually drove them all from the church. Police said hundreds could have been killed in the machine gun and hand grenade attack, but due to Wyk's response only 11 people died.

Now the Christian missionary has once again used his gun to protect fellow believers when three men tried to rob his group while at a conference in Mizpah. Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America (http://www.gunowners.org/), describes what happened on June 1 when the robbers briefly turned their attention away from van Wyk. "They were distracted. He got his gun and, as he moved on them, he called out to the thugs and when they took...their eye off their victim...that's when he started shooting at them. It was classic," he praises.

The shocked robbers fled and nearby residents later informed van Wyk that at least one of the criminals was wounded. Pratt says both attacks point out the need for the repeal of laws that prevent law-abiding citizens from being armed in so-called "gun free zones" like schools and churches.

"And the concern that I have -- [one] that's shared by many security experts -- is that the terrorists might try something similar to what they did in Beslan, Russia, back in 2003," says Pratt. Terrorists there attacked a school and killed 330 people, most of them young children.

While some 40 states allow concealed carry in some form or another, almost all prohibit permit holders from being armed in churches and schools. Pratt says those laws are engraved invitations for criminals and terrorists to attack.


From http://www.onenewsnow.com/Printer.aspx?id=189396

Since this missionaries gun has saved lives, he should not give it up if the government wants to take it away from him to leave he and others defenseless.

daughter
Nov 18th 2008, 07:02 PM
Even if they did, the situation was different from that being discussed here. Their elected government did not require them to give up their arms. As tedyv says, weapons in time of war are not the issue here. Soldiers carry weapons. Even in the UK, which has some pretty strict anti gun laws.

We need to be clear. Are we saying that the military should be disarmed (obviously suicidal) or that untrained civilians should be disarmed?

Two different things. The spies fell into the first category.

I should clarify while I'm at it, that I'm not a pacifist. Just in case you think that's my agenda.

I just think we should be very precise in the way we word things, so that we're all clear that we're talking about the same things.

Disarming soldiers in time of war. Insane idea.

Disarming Mary when she's got PMT... probably very wise. :lol:

diffangle
Nov 18th 2008, 07:03 PM
I would think that use of weapons in a time of war is a different issue than is being discussed here.
No it's not, in both instances weapons are used to save lives, therefore if it's okay to hide Jews when the gov wants you turn them over to be slaughtered, than it should be okay to keep your gun if the gov wants to take them away from you, b/c they can be used to save lives... both are serving to protect innocent lives.

tango
Nov 18th 2008, 08:19 PM
Maybe your purpose is to save someone else. Possibly with a gun?


I don't think so, but if God told me that my mission was to shoot person A to save person B then I'd like to think I'd go along with it.



Well, that tells us that your pacifism is not Christianity-based. :hmm:

I wasn't a pacifist. I used destructive black magic on a number of occasions.



Hmm. Possibly this happened because Christians jettisoned the Law. :hmm: Interesting.

Interesting indeed, although probably a horrendous derail for this thread.



Well, there must be some criteria that He follows.


Sodom and Gomorrah could have been saved if there were but 10 righteous people in them. Perhaps that's why cities associated with modern day debauchery haven't been buried in brimstone?

apothanein kerdos
Nov 18th 2008, 08:33 PM
But that's the thing AK, history shows us that a gov that forces people to give up their arms are up to no good... so while there is no specific command to keep guns when the gov wants to disarm the people, there's also no specific command to hide Jews when they are being persecuted... point is, is it all falls under the umbrella of being able to disobey evil governemts when it comes obeying them or YHWH.

The Bible makes it very clear that we are to guard human life. It is silent on the issue of owning weapons.

It seems as though people have put a huge 'BUT' when the Bible tell us to obey our governments, even though the Bible never puts that 'but' there.


So, my question is can we replace gun with Bible, with Food? Anything that is not living..but an object.

Do you allow a loved one to be killed..would you turn them over?

Ok, another side issue..if you saw your daughter being raped and murdered..would you just stand there and say, God will protect her..or perhaps God woud want to you to shoot the rapist and saved your daughters life??

NO, because there is a problem of equivocation. The gun is not on par with the Bible or with food.

As for the rapist, I'd shoot him and I'd shoot to kill - but that's not the issue. The issue is over whether or not Christians should disobey orders to turn in their weapons.

teddyv
Nov 18th 2008, 08:42 PM
No it's not, in both instances weapons are used to save lives, therefore if it's okay to hide Jews when the gov wants you turn them over to be slaughtered, than it should be okay to keep your gun if the gov wants to take them away from you, b/c they can be used to save lives... both are serving to protect innocent lives.

That seems like somewhat tortured logic.

Weapons in war are used to inflict damage and destruction on an enemy to eliminate its capacity to continue war. They are not designed to protect anyones life.

I only know little of specific details of the hiding of the Jews, in particular that of Holland as that is where my roots are from. Holland was an occupied country at the time (they had surrendered therefore were not in state of war). As far as I know the Dutch did not take up arms to protect the Jews from the Germans, they engaged in civil disobedience by protecting them and hiding them.

Fenris
Nov 18th 2008, 08:50 PM
I don't think so, but if God told me that my mission was to shoot person A to save person B then I'd like to think I'd go along with it.I don't expect direct communication from God. He told us what to do in the bible. (Again, jettisoning the Law may cause these sort of conundrums.)



I wasn't a pacifist. I used destructive black magic on a number of occasions.Ah...right.




Sodom and Gomorrah could have been saved if there were but 10 righteous people in them. Perhaps that's why cities associated with modern day debauchery haven't been buried in brimstone?
Perhaps, perhaps...but this tells us nothing on how to behave like God.

diffangle
Nov 18th 2008, 10:30 PM
The Bible makes it very clear that we are to guard human life. It is silent on the issue of owning weapons.

As shown in Scripture, weapons are used to guard human life... so it's not silent on the weapons issue.



It seems as though people have put a huge 'BUT' when the Bible tell us to obey our governments, even though the Bible never puts that 'but' there.

So the Bible says that when our government says we need to hand over all the Jews/gays/Jehovah Witnesses/Christians/mentally-disabled to be slaugtered we need to obey our government? :confused Or is there a "But" there?

diffangle
Nov 18th 2008, 10:37 PM
[quote=teddyv;1872542]That seems like somewhat tortured logic.

Weapons in war are used to inflict damage and destruction on an enemy to eliminate its capacity to continue war. They are not designed to protect anyones life.

Think about what you wrote here for a sec... aren't we in a war to protect "us" against "them"?




I only know little of specific details of the hiding of the Jews, in particular that of Holland as that is where my roots are from. Holland was an occupied country at the time (they had surrendered therefore were not in state of war). As far as I know the Dutch did not take up arms to protect the Jews from the Germans, they engaged in civil disobedience by protecting them and hiding them.

Think about how many Jews and Dutch could have been saved if they did take up arms for protection. Guns save lives... as I have shown with the article about the missionary, good thing he was armed b/c alot of people could have died.

diffangle
Nov 18th 2008, 10:45 PM
It's good for a man/woman to protect his house...

Mat 24:43 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=24&v=43&t=KJV#comm/43)But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

teddyv
Nov 18th 2008, 10:54 PM
[quote]

Think about what you wrote here for a sec... aren't we in a war to protect "us" against "them"?

War is ultimately a political action. It is not about saving lives. Also, you seem to suggest war is defensive in nature, but that is hardly the case. Did the German army begin fighting to protect its citizens?


Think about how many Jews and Dutch could have been saved if they did take up arms for protection.

Are you saying that Holland should not have surrendered then? They put up a token resistance, but had no military capacity to stop the German army. Upon surrender they could only fall back to acts of civil disobedience and other underground resistance as well as protection of the Jews. These actions alone would have deadly repercussions to those doing these things.

Having the Dutch citizenry armed and fighting back would have secured their deaths as well as the deaths of those they tried to protect.



Guns save lives... as I have shown with the article about the missionary, good thing he was armed b/c alot of people could have died.
Anecdotes are not data.

And if the bad guys in this scenario had any semblance of proper training and tactics they probably could have taken out the armed missionary and then gone to town on the rest. This looks to be more about divine providence than a gun saving lives.

daughter
Nov 19th 2008, 01:27 PM
It seems that the argument is that Christians should hang onto their weapons, because they may one day have to use them against a corrupt government. Then we have speculation about how much better things would have been in Holland under Nazi rule if only the citizenry had been armed.

Obviously the nazis are an extreme example of an "evil" government, but I don't see how a decentralised resistance with guns could have made things better.

Another issue to be considered is, who decides when a government is evil. I realise reading this that most of the contributers have never lived in a country where there is an "armed resistance" to an "oppressive government." I have.

As far as the IRA were concerned, they considered that they had the right to bear arms, because the British government was oppressive and evil. Without getting into the politics too much, the issue was not so simple. The fact that the IRA was armed did not mean that they "won the war" against the "oppressor." It did however have a bloody cost in human lives.

I've known people who were involved in this "resistance", and they thought they were Christian for the most part. (Leaving aside the fact that they were RC. They had counterparts on the unionist side, but I didn't know any of them.) The men I knew of who considered themselves Christian yet considered armed resistance against the government to be acceptable did not act according to their faith.

Perhaps there are born again Christians in such groups, but I find it hard to believe.

And again, there is no point us all getting hett up about imaginary scenarios in which big bad brother takes away our guns, and we're all living in the hills while refusing to take the Mark of the Beast. Don't worry.

Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. There are enough real things going on for us to worry about, without inventing evils we may never have to face.

diffangle
Nov 19th 2008, 02:05 PM
I'm not necessarily wanting to hang on to my gun in hopes of using it against my government... I want it to protect against criminals. Take New Orleans for example, when Katrina hit, there were people whose homes were on dry land and their homes were fully stocked with food and water... what happened with them? The "law" came and took their guns away from them and left them defenseless against all the criminals that were running rampant there... that ain't right! That would be the time I would want my gun by my side.

Rufus_1611
Nov 19th 2008, 03:39 PM
It seems that the argument is that Christians should hang onto their weapons, because they may one day have to use them against a corrupt government. Then we have speculation about how much better things would have been in Holland under Nazi rule if only the citizenry had been armed.

Obviously the nazis are an extreme example of an "evil" government, but I don't see how a decentralised resistance with guns could have made things better.

Another issue to be considered is, who decides when a government is evil. I realise reading this that most of the contributers have never lived in a country where there is an "armed resistance" to an "oppressive government." I have. When a government becomes a terror to good works rather than evil works, it has become an evil government.


As far as the IRA were concerned, they considered that they had the right to bear arms, because the British government was oppressive and evil. Without getting into the politics too much, the issue was not so simple. The fact that the IRA was armed did not mean that they "won the war" against the "oppressor." It did however have a bloody cost in human lives.

I've known people who were involved in this "resistance", and they thought they were Christian for the most part. (Leaving aside the fact that they were RC. They had counterparts on the unionist side, but I didn't know any of them.) The men I knew of who considered themselves Christian yet considered armed resistance against the government to be acceptable did not act according to their faith.

Perhaps there are born again Christians in such groups, but I find it hard to believe.

And again, there is no point us all getting hett up about imaginary scenarios in which big bad brother takes away our guns, and we're all living in the hills while refusing to take the Mark of the Beast. Don't worry.

Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. There are enough real things going on for us to worry about, without inventing evils we may never have to face.

moonglow
Nov 19th 2008, 03:58 PM
I'm not necessarily wanting to hang on to my gun in hopes of using it against my government... I want it to protect against criminals. Take New Orleans for example, when Katrina hit, there were people whose homes were on dry land and their homes were fully stocked with food and water... what happened with them? The "law" came and took their guns away from them and left them defenseless against all the criminals that were running rampant there... that ain't right! That would be the time I would want my gun by my side.

That is because at that point they didn't know who the snipers were and who was the good guys. If you had people taking pop shots at you while the city was in a crisis, you would want everyone de-armed too. Too many times innocent people get shot instead of the 'bad guys'.


daughter It seems that the argument is that Christians should hang onto their weapons, because they may one day have to use them against a corrupt government. Then we have speculation about how much better things would have been in Holland under Nazi rule if only the citizenry had been armed.

Obviously the nazis are an extreme example of an "evil" government, but I don't see how a decentralised resistance with guns could have made things better.

Another issue to be considered is, who decides when a government is evil. I realise reading this that most of the contributers have never lived in a country where there is an "armed resistance" to an "oppressive government." I have.

As far as the IRA were concerned, they considered that they had the right to bear arms, because the British government was oppressive and evil. Without getting into the politics too much, the issue was not so simple. The fact that the IRA was armed did not mean that they "won the war" against the "oppressor." It did however have a bloody cost in human lives.

I've known people who were involved in this "resistance", and they thought they were Christian for the most part. (Leaving aside the fact that they were RC. They had counterparts on the unionist side, but I didn't know any of them.) The men I knew of who considered themselves Christian yet considered armed resistance against the government to be acceptable did not act according to their faith.

Perhaps there are born again Christians in such groups, but I find it hard to believe.

And again, there is no point us all getting hett up about imaginary scenarios in which big bad brother takes away our guns, and we're all living in the hills while refusing to take the Mark of the Beast. Don't worry.

Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. There are enough real things going on for us to worry about, without inventing evils we may never have to face.

Excellent post....the disciples and the first Christians were under a oppressive, evil government and were being jailed, beaten and killed under Nero. Three disciples died under Nero by his command. Yet we read NO examples of them using weapons of any kind to fight back.

There is nothing even in Revelations that shows the saints fighting back physically either! I see people too running on the fear of what 'might' happen yet the bible doesn't even justify our being persecuted as it being right to fight back using violence. In fact the bible says we overcome the beast by our testimony! Apparently that is more powerful then any gun or weapon can be...

Revelation 12:10-12

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death

God bless

diffangle
Nov 19th 2008, 04:36 PM
That is because at that point they didn't know who the snipers were and who was the good guys. If you had people taking pop shots at you while the city was in a crisis, you would want everyone de-armed too. Too many times innocent people get shot instead of the 'bad guys'.


The snipers are the ones that are shooting at you not the little old lady that was beat up inside her kitchen and the lady who's a Baptist minister...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2gNwzav3hQ

As far as disarming people, the criminals are not going to hand their guns over so when you take the non-criminals guns away from them, that will give the criminals more incentive to harm you b/c they know that you've been disarmed and that they are still armed.

stillforgiven
Nov 19th 2008, 04:37 PM
Hey there. I'm just stopping by to say I didn't post the OP and abandon the thread. I'm not feeling so hot, and last night I skipped my evening class and went straight to bed after work. I'll probably do the same again tonight, so I probably won't be online again until tomorrow night at the soonest.

I was able to read some of the fist page, and I am glad to know that it would be okay to help people even if it's breaking the law when the government is wrong according to God's rules.

See you soon.
SF

daughter
Nov 19th 2008, 05:01 PM
Hope you're feeling better Stillforgiven. May I ask, why have you thrown snowballs at Fenris' dog? :lol:

Clavicula_Nox
Nov 19th 2008, 11:48 PM
Obviously the nazis are an extreme example of an "evil" government, but I don't see how a decentralised resistance with guns could have made things better.

Oh man, seriously? Partisans in France, Netherlands, Eastern Europe, and Russia tied up many times their number of German troops, preventing those troops from engaging in critical battle locations.

When a country creates entire divisions (20,000+ soldiers/division) who's specific mission is to conduct anti-partisan operations in a tiny area, you know something is working.

RedBird777
Nov 21st 2008, 12:06 AM
This thread goes ALL OVER the place....what happened??? It's gone to the same thread this was based off of!

CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE --> Basically not following a law for just causes.
Is it ok to break the law? ONLY if it contradicts the Laws of God.

For the gun issue --> The taking of armaments is against the United States Constitution, hence any one trying to take away guns is disobeying United States law. These people should then be punished in an appropriate manner according to the United States law.

stillforgiven
Nov 21st 2008, 03:12 AM
WOW!! What a thread. I am very sorry for being MIA through all of this. There's an "ick" bug going around here, and it visited me for a couple of days.

I can see that my OP wasn't phrased in the best form. I've never been very good at making my thoughts into written words. I didn't mean to mix up two different topics. At the time it made sense in my head. :P I may have already been feeling the effects of the "ick" bug, and I am still fatigued from it. I hope the rest of my post makes sense.

I was searching for when it was okay for Christians to disobey their government, and I think I am more clear on it now. What Corrie Ten Boom and others did was right, including other things that helped them help Jews. These things included keeping a radio when they were told to turn them in, stealing ration cards to feed the Jewish people they hid, having the telephone reconnected in their house when it was forbidden, etc. In the eyes of God, I can see where this disobeying of man's laws would be okay in order to protect people, esp the Jewish people (IMO). None of these could be used to actually hurt anyone, which I think is the argument made by some about guns.

I am really glad to know this, because whenever I read the book, I always hope that I would have the guts to do the same thing if I ever had to.

As for my bringing in the gun topic, it stemmed from wondering if I was one that decided to keep my gun, would one of my fellow Christians turn me in, and would they have the right to in God's eyes. This probalby should be a new topic, and if anyone wants to hash it out, feel free to start a new thread. I think this one is about exhausted.

Thanks to all of you who helped me on this. :hug:

stillforgiven
Nov 21st 2008, 03:14 AM
Hope you're feeling better Stillforgiven. May I ask, why have you thrown snowballs at Fenris' dog? :lol:

It's his dog? Sorry, dude. :D

daughter
Nov 21st 2008, 09:09 AM
As for my bringing in the gun topic, it stemmed from wondering if I was one that decided to keep my gun, would one of my fellow Christians turn me in, and would they have the right to in God's eyes.
Wow, that IS another topic!

I'd not turn you in. :rolleyes:



It's his dog? Sorry, dude. :D

Well, it looks like the avatar Fenris used to have of him. :lol:

Brother Mark
Nov 21st 2008, 12:15 PM
This question is a spin off from the one about Christians surrendering their guns, and it is posed to those who said it would be a sin to not give them over.

How do you feel about the people, many of them Christians, who hid Jews during WWII? One of my favorite books is The Hiding Place by Corrie Ten Boom who's Christian family was part of the underground resistance and hid Jews in their own home until they were arrested and taken to concentration camps. She tells of a pastor in her town who was totally freaked out that they would do such a thing as hide Jews and smuggle them to safety.

What do you say? If not handing in guns is wrong, was it also wrong to hide and smuggle the Jews?

Please don't see this as a hypothetical question. I really do want to know what you think. Thanks.

I am late to the discussion. But my perspective... I am an avid hunter. I grew up around guns my entire life. I love to shoot them. If the government outlaws them, then I will no longer own them as the walk with my Lord is more important than my guns.

On the other hand, if the government outlaws Jews, or Latinos, or Asians, or Blacks, or any other group of people, I will hide those folks and help them. As the walk with my Lord is more important than obeying sinful laws.

Scripture encourages me to give up my rights. "Let this mind be in you which was in Christ..." The chapter goes on to speak about how Christ gave up everything. We too are called to give up everything. Scripture doesn't give me the right to own a gun. But it does command me to love my neighbor.

Civil disobedience is only OK where it requires me to sin in order to obey. The book of Daniel gives great examples of how to handle dealing with authority that is against God and how to behave if they tell us to do something or take away something we care about.

diffangle
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:22 PM
Are you saying that Holland should not have surrendered then? They put up a token resistance, but had no military capacity to stop the German army. Upon surrender they could only fall back to acts of civil disobedience and other underground resistance as well as protection of the Jews. These actions alone would have deadly repercussions to those doing these things.

Having the Dutch citizenry armed and fighting back would have secured their deaths as well as the deaths of those they tried to protect.

Are you familiar with the Warsaw Uprising (http://www.warsawuprising.com/savejews.htm)?




Anecdotes are not data.

And if the bad guys in this scenario had any semblance of proper training and tactics they probably could have taken out the armed missionary and then gone to town on the rest. This looks to be more about divine providence than a gun saving lives.

Are you claiming that the fact that this missionary was armed had nothing to do with the saving of lives? Can you honestly say that guns have not ever been used to save lives?

ChristianKnight
Nov 24th 2008, 05:17 AM
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive.
Thomas Jefferson

diffangle
Nov 25th 2008, 05:16 AM
I just recieved this video in an email, it's of Suzanna Gratia-Hupp(her parents were killed by a gunman) speaking to legislators on the importance of protecting the second amendment...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675&p

Ashley274
Nov 25th 2008, 05:23 AM
Still, I beleive in many cases CD is OK and not only right but just.

daughter
Nov 25th 2008, 09:13 AM
I suppose we can all agree at least that civil disobedience is fine, when the cause is just, but violent disobedience is another matter?