PDA

View Full Version : Gog



seeker_truth
Nov 18th 2008, 07:44 AM
Ezekiel 38:1-3
"And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:"


Right from the first we learn that Gog is a land mass, and is the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.


Meshech and Tubal were regional areas of several ancient kingdoms that existed before and during the days of Ezekiel.


Today, Meshech would have been found situated in the western part of Turkey, and Tubal in the eastern section.


These two tribal regions were mentioned in such away for the precise purpose of pinpointing a specific area of land that would one day be a major factor in the fulfillment of end time prophecy.


Gog is one of a conglomerate of Magog nations, which are listed for us in chapter 38:5-6: Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, Gomer, and the house of Togarmah of the north quarter.


Interestingly, Gomer was once located in what is now known as northeastern Turkey, while the house of Togarmah would have been found in the southeast.


Turkey, along with the rest of the Magog nations will be united by one strong tie that binds even the worse of people together, religion.


And, being Islamic, they will quickly develop a relationship with a man known as the false prophet, along with his massive end time kingdom that will one day rule the land of Israel, the city of Jerusalem and the Arab nations of the Middle East.


Understanding the budding relationship between the Magog nations and the false prophet can help define the three roles that Gog plays in Ez.38-39, which are barely discernible and often viewed as one event.


seeker

DurbanDude
Nov 18th 2008, 10:33 AM
Ezekiel 14 "Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? 15 You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. 16 You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:YKqOjo9qFU11AM:http://crossroads.journalismcentre.com/images/2008/review/Middle_East/middle_east_pol_2003.jpg (http://crossroads.journalismcentre.com/images/2008/review/Middle_East/middle_east_pol_2003.jpg)

Who comes from the far north? Gog

Where is the near north to Israel: Lebanon and Syria

Where is the medium north to Israel: Turkey

Where is the far north of Israel: Russia



Gog's place is Russia

AlainaJ
Nov 18th 2008, 09:08 PM
My theory only...


God is:O Gog, the chief prince

he is demonic prince

My personal belief is that these are demonic kingdoms and demons who rule these Kingdoms.


Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Daniel 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.


Here Daniel is speaking of supernatural forces....demonic princes



Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

seeker_truth
Nov 19th 2008, 03:43 AM
Ezekiel 14 "Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? 15 You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. 16 You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:YKqOjo9qFU11AM:http://crossroads.journalismcentre.com/images/2008/review/Middle_East/middle_east_pol_2003.jpg (http://crossroads.journalismcentre.com/images/2008/review/Middle_East/middle_east_pol_2003.jpg)

Who comes from the far north? Gog

Where is the near north to Israel: Lebanon and Syria

Where is the medium north to Israel: Turkey

Where is the far north of Israel: Russia



Gog's place is Russia

Durban Dude,
The Lord identified Gog as chief of two exclusive pieces of ancient real estate, Meshech and Tubal, both of which can be located as tribal regions that once existed in what we now call the nation of Turkey.

And, as though this were not enough, the Lord continued to outline the land of Gog by including Gomer and the house of Togarmah, both ancient regions that also existed within the borders of modern day Turkey.

You stated that the phrase "far north" equated to Russia. This terminology is much too vague and broad.

Consider similar phrases in other passages, "north quarters" and "north parts", Ez.38:6,15, which were also used as descriptive terms for "far north".

An excellent example of this is found with the house of Togarmah, which is referred to as "of the north quarters", an ancient region located in the southeastern parts of Turkey.

Knowing this, it simply does not seem possible that "far north" reached beyond the borders of Turkey.

Your phrase "medium north" is cute, but that's about all..What one might say is that Syria and Lebanon are north of Israel, while the northern most parts would be the area just north of Syria and Lebanon, makes more senses.

seeker

seeker_truth
Nov 19th 2008, 04:56 AM
My theory only...


God is:O Gog, the chief prince

he is demonic prince

My personal belief is that these are demonic kingdoms and demons who rule these Kingdoms.


Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Daniel 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.


Here Daniel is speaking of supernatural forces....demonic princes



Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

AlainaJ,
Your theory is quite correct, there is a demonic prince who reigns over Gog, and should not be confused with Gog.

The term "chief" in Ez.38:2 was not a reference to an actual man or demonic being. It was given for the purpose of identifying a future nation, whose land mass once contained two smaller ancient areas known as Meshech and Tubal.

In Ez.39:1 the Lord states that he is against the nation of Gog, which would include the demonic prince over the nation.
This is clarified for us in the next verse that states "And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee".
Does the Lord leave a sixth part of a demonic prince or nation? Do you see what I mean...

seeker

DurbanDude
Nov 19th 2008, 06:16 AM
Durban Dude,
The Lord identified Gog as chief of two exclusive pieces of ancient real estate, Meshech and Tubal, both of which can be located as tribal regions that once existed in what we now call the nation of Turkey.

And, as though this were not enough, the Lord continued to outline the land of Gog by including Gomer and the house of Togarmah, both ancient regions that also existed within the borders of modern day Turkey.

You stated that the phrase "far north" equated to Russia. This terminology is much too vague and broad.

Consider similar phrases in other passages, "north quarters" and "north parts", Ez.38:6,15, which were also used as descriptive terms for "far north".

An excellent example of this is found with the house of Togarmah, which is referred to as "of the north quarters", an ancient region located in the southeastern parts of Turkey.

Knowing this, it simply does not seem possible that "far north" reached beyond the borders of Turkey.

Your phrase "medium north" is cute, but that's about all..What one might say is that Syria and Lebanon are north of Israel, while the northern most parts would be the area just north of Syria and Lebanon, makes more senses.

seeker

What you say does make sense. There is a possibility that if Gog is Russia , Gog could still be the chief prince of other regions, just as Russia is the main player of the region. Russia is to the furthest north of Israel, so I personally would not exclude the possibility of Gog being Russia , but I also can't argue with your logic that Gog is the chief prince of Turkey, so I will adopt a wait and see approach on this.

third hero
Nov 19th 2008, 08:50 PM
AlainaJ,
Your theory is quite correct, there is a demonic prince who reigns over Gog, and should not be confused with Gog.

The term "chief" in Ez.38:2 was not a reference to an actual man or demonic being. It was given for the purpose of identifying a future nation, whose land mass once contained two smaller ancient areas known as Meshech and Tubal.

In Ez.39:1 the Lord states that he is against the nation of Gog, which would include the demonic prince over the nation.
This is clarified for us in the next verse that states "And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee".
Does the Lord leave a sixth part of a demonic prince or nation? Do you see what I mean...

seeker

I'm sorry, but I do not agree with you here. According to Ezekiel 38, the term "chief prince" is the very same term that was used in Daniel, who lived right around the same time period as Ezekiel. When it was used then, it equated to the angel of a nation. Chief prince refers to the rank of the angel in question, and that rank was given to Gog.

There is a reason why, even though in Ezekiel 39 Gog is destroyed, he resurfaces in Revelation 20, and in that passage, gog refers to all of the rogue nations that atacked Jerusalem at the final day.

seeker_truth
Nov 20th 2008, 04:21 AM
I'm sorry, but I do not agree with you here. According to Ezekiel 38, the term "chief prince" is the very same term that was used in Daniel, who lived right around the same time period as Ezekiel. When it was used then, it equated to the angel of a nation. Chief prince refers to the rank of the angel in question, and that rank was given to Gog.


third hero, You need to check the term 'prince' in the Hebraic.

In Dan. 10:13, 20, 21, & 21:1 'prince' in the Hebraic is sar; head, official, captain

In Ez. 38:2, 3, & 39:1 'prince' in the Hebraic is nasi; lifted up, exalted

A demonic or angelic being is never lifted up or exalted..They can have a rank as a head or leader, official or captain.

This is why I said not to confuse a demonic being that rules over Gog, with the nation of Gog.

seeker

Literalist-Luke
Nov 20th 2008, 06:28 AM
Ezekiel 38/39: The Vision of the Gog and Magog Invasion of Israel

Ezekiel 38:1-7— “The word of the Lord came to me: ‘Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshek and Tubal; prophesy against him and say: “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshek and Tubal. I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops—the many nations with you. Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you, and take command of them.”’”

Ezekiel 38:8b – “In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.”

Ezekiel 38:11 – “You will say, "I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars.”

The parallels here with modern Israel are astonishing, especially the comment about “unwalled villages”. That would have been unheard of in Ezekiel’s day as well as unthinkable due to the blatant security risk. What nobody of that time could have understood is that in today’s modern age of air warfare, walls are obsolete. (This is just another example of the stunning accuracy of Biblical prophecy and proof of the authenticity of the Scriptures as the Word of God.) Prophesying to Gog, Ezekiel says, “In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate.” Israel is described as “the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods.” Clearly Ezekiel was describing the Israel of today. It could not possibly have been describing Israel prior to 1948, because Israel was not scattered to the “nations” until 70 AD. When Nebuchadnezzar conquered Israel in 586 BC, he took many Jews in captivity to Babylon. They were not scattered throughout the world’s nations however, they were still contained almost entirely within the boundaries of the Babylonian empire. There was even still a significant Jewish population in the land of Israel itself, including the prophet Jeremiah. Later the Babylonian territory was conquered by Persia and then the Greeks, but the Jews were still not scattered among the “nations”. Certainly the land of Israel was not “desolate” during this time because it was still thoroughly populated. The scattering among the nations did not occur until Israel was obliterated by the Romans in 70 AD, so those who attempt to argue that this description of Israel has already been historically fulfilled are in error. Only modern Israel since 1948 could possibly fit this description.

Ezekiel also gives us specific names of nations that will be involved in this invasion of Israel. Listed in the order used by Ezekiel, they are Magog, Meschech, Tubal, Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer and Beth Togormah, as well as “many nations with you.”



Is Gog Antichrist?


Before we go any further however, we need to address an ongoing controversy. There is a divergence of opinion among many modern prophecy teachers regarding the identification of Gog and his coalition of nations. The majority position for the past few centuries — really ever since the Reformation — is that the invading army of nations described in Ezekiel 38-39 is not the army of Antichrist, but of another army entirely led by some other vague evil world leader. This is because of a common assumption that the Antichrist would be of European ancestry. However, a careful re-examination can lead one to a more clearly defined conclusion.



Thou Shalt Have No Other Gog


There are two specific mentions of Gog and Magog in the Bible. Gog is mentioned not only in Ezekiel but also in Revelation. Let’s look at the passage in Revelation 20:7-10:

“When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth — Gog and Magog — and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.”

Even after the earthly thousand-year reign of Christ from Jerusalem, the Bible says that yet another army will form to attack the holy city of Jerusalem. Again, the leader of this army is called Gog and his army, Magog. Those who take the position that Gog is not the Antichrist must explain how this “Gog” and his armies return, so to speak, at least a thousand years after the first Gog. (Note: This is not to suggest that this is a “resurrection” of Gog. In fact, I would strongly disagree with such a suggestion.) This is a difficulty for those who argue that Gog and the Antichrist are not the same individual. The first “Gog and Magog” must share more than a mere name with the second “Gog and Magog” or why would the Bible give them the same name? There is a correlation between the two that extends beyond this very unusual title. Those who see Gog and the Antichrist as two separate entities must be able to explain just what similarities the Gog of Ezekiel and the Gog of Revelation bear that merits them both carrying the same name. So far I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation.

Actually, in order to understand who Revelation 20’s Gog is, all one must really do is take a look at who Antichrist is. Antichrist, quite simply, is the closest Satan can get to creating the “devil incarnate”. There are actually passages of Scripture that shift from speaking of Satan to speaking of the Antichrist seamlessly as if they are one and the same, such as Isaiah 14. And as we find in Revelation 13 and 17, Satan will even share his worship with Antichrist. Simply stated, Antichrist is Satan’s puppet that he will use to attack Jerusalem. And in Revelation 20, Gog is also Satan’s puppet that will serve the very same purpose, trying to wipe out Israel and as a consequence, God’s kingdom. In terms of both role and function, Antichrist and the Gog of Revelation are essentially the same. Even as Satan will raise up a man to carry out his work in the Tribulation, so will Satan also raise up another man to carry out his final rebellion against God one more time at the end of the Millennium. Both times, the leader of Satan’s rebellion against Jerusalem is referred to as Gog and his army is called Magog. Why should we view the basic nature of the first Gog as being any different than the second? Those who view Ezekiel’s Gog as different from Antichrist find themselves at a loss to provide any explanation on this matter.



Spoken Of By the Former Prophets


Consider this second point carefully, for it is essential. Ezekiel says specifically of Gog that other biblical prophets spoke of him in times past:

“This is what the Sovereign Lord says: ‘You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them.’” —Ezekiel 38:17

The question must be asked then, if Gog is spoken of by Israel’s former prophets prior to Ezekiel but Gog is not the Antichrist, then where are these references? One will be very hard pressed to find any. In fact, I have yet to see a single treatment of this subject by those who claim that Gog is not the Antichrist. If, however, we take the position that Gog is Antichrist, then it is very easy to find numerous passages about him and his invading army throughout the prophets.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 20th 2008, 06:30 AM
The Description of Gog’s Defeat


There is another strong reason to equate Gog with the Antichrist. It is because the descriptions concerning the destruction of Gog and his armies are strikingly similar to the destruction of the Antichrist and his armies in Revelation and Zechariah. For example:

“I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD. Every man's sword will be against his fellow. I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals. You will fall in the open field, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the Lord. ——Ezekiel 38:22; 39:3-6

Similarly in Revelation, concerning the destruction of the Antichrist and his armies, we read:

“Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter.’ He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, ‘Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.’ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.” —Revelation 19:11-21

It is interesting to note that in both passages, a feast is prepared for the scavenging birds to feast on the flesh of the dead from the fallen armies. In both passages, we also read about the sword that God will bring against the attacking armies and their leaders. The most reasonable conclusion would seem to be that we have two descriptions of one event each from slightly, though very similar perspectives. Ezekiel describes this terrible event from one angle while Revelation describes it from another.

In addition, look at Ezekiel 39:18a – “You [the carrion birds] will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth…” This reference to the “princes of the earth” makes no sense if Gog is only an isolated Russian ruler doomed to immediate destruction. A person who believes that Antichrist and Gog are different people would have to assume that the nations in the list of invaders were being referenced here, so why would the birds be eating the princes of the earth? Would it not be only the princes of the nations listed by Ezekiel? But if Gog is the Antichrist, it makes perfect sense. It is because by the time this “great supper of God Almighty” takes place, the invaders of Gog/Magog will have been joined by the forces of Armageddon so the “princes of the earth” will indeed be present for this to be fulfilled precisely as described in the Bible.

In addition, notice one other detail from Zechariah 14:13 – “On that day people will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another.”

It is commonly agreed by most students of Biblical prophecy that Zechariah 14 is describing the Second Coming, because it mentions numerous details that could only be true of the Second Coming, including the famous description of the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives. Here in verse 13 of that chapter we see in the underlined portion that one of the means of the destruction of the Antichrist’s armies will be them fighting against each other. Notice this similar description from Ezekiel 38:21 – “Every man's sword will be against his fellow.” There are too many parallels between the destruction of the two armies to dismiss them as being two separate armies.



The Result of Gog’s Defeat


Another important reason to see Gog as the Antichrist is because the results of Gog’s destruction are things that may only take place after Christ has returned. After describing Gog’s destruction, God declares:

“I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord. I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the Lord. I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel. It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign Lord. This is the day I have spoken of.” —Ezekiel 38:21-23; 39:6-8

God Himself says that after the defeat of Gog, both the Gentile nations and Israel will know that He is God. No longer will His name be profaned. This description could not possibly be applied to some earlier invasion that takes place just prior to the coming forth of the Antichrist who will then spend years openly blaspheming God’s name, all the while gathering a global following in the process. That does not sound like a world where “the nations know that I am the Lord” and God’s name is no longer “profaned”. The description of what will take place after Gog’s destruction is one that can only be applied to that period after Christ returns and has utterly destroyed all of His enemies.

A person arguing that Gog is not the Antichrist must answer this question: Why would God allow the Antichrist or anyone else to persecute Israel after He has “gathered them to Himself” in Ezekiel 39:27-28? If Gog isn’t the Antichrist, then the Antichrist will be allowed to persecute Israel after God had “gathered Israel to Himself”.

Beyond this, we also read that after the destruction of Gog, the people of Israel will burn the weapons of war that have been scattered on the battle field:

“Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel. They will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut it from the forests, because they will use the weapons for fuel. And they will plunder those who plundered them and loot those who looted them”, declares the Sovereign Lord. —Ezekiel 39:9-10

Such an event of course — the burning of weapons — would not take place unless the world was a place where weapons were no longer needed and where enemies no longer existed. As such, this passage is also highly reminiscent of the Prophet Micah’s descriptions of the Millennium:

“He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.” —Micah 4:3

It seems very far fetched that an Israel who has just survived one of the largest invasions in their history (if not THE largest) would immediately begin disposing of all the weapons by burning them unless there was a very compelling reason to believe them to be no longer needed, such as Christ being present on his throne in Jerusalem to protect them. In the aftermath of such an invasion occurring prior to the Tribulation it is difficult (if not impossible) to imagine Israel simply destroying such a cache of weapons when they could very reasonably expect to need them for their own use against further aggression in the light of such events. In such circumstances, wouldn’t Israel be far more likely to stockpile the weapons for their own future use?



A Great Earthquake


Another similarity between the destruction of Gog and the Antichrist is that in both cases, at the time of their destruction there is a great earthquake that occurs. This is seen in several prophetic passages. The description in Ezekiel is quite extreme:

“In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground.” — Ezekiel 38:19-20

In a very similar fashion, the Book for Revelation also describes a great earthquake as the armies of Antichrist are gathered together in and against Israel:

“Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since the human race has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.” —Revelation 16:18-20

The original Hebrew word that is translated as “earthquake” at the beginning of the Ezekial quote is “raash”. Then when we are told that the people “tremble”, it is the same Hebrew word, “raash”. It is clear from this that people are not merely “trembling” out of fear as is sometimes argued, but that they are “trembling” in the midst of a great “trembling” or earthquake.

Note these important details in the Ezekiel quote: Every creature on earth, including ALL humans on earth shake at the presence of God. Then after all things on earth shake the mountains are thrown down and every wall falls down. It is impossible to find other places in Scripture where the mountains are thrown down. Those who would argue that these are not the same event must demonstrate where the destruction of the mountains occurs prior to the end of the Tribulation anywhere in Scripture. It is true that the Ezekiel passage specifies that there will be an earthquake in Israel, but it seems quite likely that, although this earthquake could very possibly start in Israel, it would certainly expand beyond the boundaries of that tiny nation. It seems quite impossible for an earthquake that knocks over mountains and cliffs to be restricted solely to Israel. In fact, Ezekiel even specifies that “the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth” are in this earthquake. Clearly it cannot be restricted to only Israel but rather, the entire planet is affected by this event.

Beyond a great earthquake, there is also the similarity of great hailstones that are said to rain on the armies of both Gog and the Antichrist:

“I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him.” — Ezekiel 38:22

“From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.” —Revelation 16:21

So the descriptions concerning the destruction of Gog and the destruction of Antichrist are so similar that it is difficult for anyone to ignore. However, there is no doubt that despite this evidence, some will still have some arguments that they must still be separate individuals. So before we move on, let’s address some of these arguments against identifying Gog with the Antichrist.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 20th 2008, 06:31 AM
Arguments Against Gog as the Antichrist


There are two common arguments used against the idea that Gog and Antichrist are the same person. The first argument is that Gog cannot be Antichrist because Gog is killed by Christ, while the Antichrist is not killed but rather is thrown alive into the lake of fire. The two passages cited are the following:

“On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east of the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there.” – Ezekiel 39:11

“But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.” —Revelation 19:20

However at two other places in Scripture we read that the Antichrist will indeed be physically killed:

“And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.” — 2 Thessalonians 2:8

“Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.” — Daniel 7:11

“All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.” – Isaiah 14:11

“You are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit, like a corpse trampled underfoot.” – Isaiah 14:19

Apparently, the Antichrist will be physically killed by Jesus. The description of the Antichrist and the False Prophet being thrown “alive” into hell is a description of the final judgment against the Antichrist after this. The point of Revelation 19:20 is that the Antichrist and the False Prophet are not even permitted the “luxury” of the Great White Throne judgment. Their evil is apparently so pronounced that they go straight to the Lake of Fire, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Notice Isaiah 14’s description of the final condition of the Antichrist: “Maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.” Does that not sound like a decaying corpse? However, some will point out that Jesus described Hell as a place where “the worm never dies”, so Isaiah 14:19 clarifies it even further for us: “You are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword.” How could this man be “cast out of his tomb” and “covered with the slain” unless there is a body present for these things to happen to?

In addition, how exactly is one “cast alive” into the Lake of Fire? Wouldn't a physical body be destroyed immediately? A physical body wouldn't survive more than a few minutes of fire, not to mention eternity. Just because Nicolai Carpathia (the Antichrist of the “Left Behind” series) was physically put "alive" into the Lake of Fire doesn't mean that's how it will actually happen. That was only Tim LaHaye's and Jerry Jenkins' fictional opinion. Rather, it seems that the intent is that this man's evil will be so pronounced that he won't even be given the chance of facing the Great White Throne judgment. Some would even argue that he really was alive once before, actually died (and went to “hell” on that occasion) and has consequently no option left but to go straight to the Lake of Fire. This would go along with the often-suggested theory that the Antichrist will be killed and come back to life as is described in Revelation chapters 13 and 17.

The second argument against Gog as Antichrist is based on the description of the invasion and the seemingly immediate and complete defeat of Gog and his army. Those in opposition to the notion that Gog is the Antichrist will usually argue that the description of Gog in Ezekiel 38-39 cannot be speaking of the Antichrist and his armies because a cursory reading of this passage appears to present us with the image of a supernaturally foiled attack that never really accomplishes its objectives. Because the Antichrist and his forces will occupy Israel for some time, the descriptions that we read in Ezekiel, it is argued, cannot be describing the Antichrist invasion, because the invasion of Ezekiel 38-39 appears to be stopped dead in its tracks. To address this argument, let us consider the following passage. Most will be fully familiar with it:

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.” — Isaiah 9:6-7

After reading this famous passage, let us try to imagine ourselves as a devout 1st century Jew. We read about the coming of the Messiah: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given.” If we were to read this passage in as natural a manner as possible, what would our conclusions be? What would we expect from this child? The passage certainly seems clear: He will immediately assume the leadership role as the King over the Jewish nation and people. In fact, of the increase of his government there will be no end. However, the Christian reader will read this passage and quite casually explain that there is a gap in this passage. There is what is sometimes called a telescoping, where an extended period of time is described in a condensed fashion. But are any real indicators within the Isaiah passage that would indicate this? There are not. So while the Christian has no problem seeing in this passage a two thousand year gap despite the lack of any indicators of such, somehow many cannot see that a gap of merely months or only a few years could be present in Ezekiel 38 and 39. In Ezekiel 38 and 39, what we have is a specific snapshot of the invasion and eventual destruction of the Antichrist and his armies. Other snapshots are presented elsewhere in Scripture. Because the limited and temporary successes of the Antichrist are not mentioned in this passage, this in no way disqualifies this passage as referring to the same invasion that we read about in the books of Daniel, Revelation, or Zechariah, all of which pertain to the Antichrist.

It could also be suggested that the Ezekiel prophecy requires the earthquake to take place immediately. This would be based on Ezekiel 38:19 – “In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel.” The Hebrew word “yowm”, that is here translated as “time”, can also be translated as “age” or “season” among other possibilities. So the possibility is left open by the original Hebrew that there could be a gap of time between the invasion and the resultant judgment.



Rosh?


“Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshek and Tubal; prophesy against him…” — Ezekiel 38:2

Some Bible translations differ on how to interpret the portion of this verse that says, “the chief prince of.” In the original Hebrew, the word translated in the above example as “chief prince” is “rosh.” While “rosh” probably means “prince,” or “head,” some argue that it should be treated as a proper noun, “Rosh”, referring to the name of a place.

Well-known American prophecy teacher Mark Hitchcock has examined this issue in his book Iran: The Coming Crisis. There Hitchcock accurately points out that the Septuagint—a first century B.C. Greek translation of the Old Testament—as well as Wilhelm Gesenius, one of the most respected Hebrew scholars of modern times, have both chosen to translate this word “Rosh” as a proper noun. This is indeed enough to give one cause to consider the possibility. However, it is the conclusion of those who choose this translation that need to be challenged. Those who feel as though Rosh is a place, most often use this word to find Russia here as one of the invading nations. This opinion is also supported by the fact that Ezekiel specifically says that Gog would come from the “far north”. And indeed, Russia is perfectly north of Israel. Nevertheless, there are some serious problems with including modern Russia in Ezekiel’s grouping of nations. While Hitchcock points out that there are various mentions of a people whose name bears similarities to Rosh found in many ancient sources, there is actually almost no real knowledge as to specifically where these people may have lived in Ezekiel’s day. The only real information that Hitchcock provides is summed up in the following fairly vague statement: “when Ezekiel wrote his prophecy, several bands of the Rosh people lived in an area to the north of the Black Sea.” However, according to Bible scholar James D. Price, in an article in the Grace Theological Journal, Rosh “was a well-known land in antiquity on the banks of the Tigris river, bordering on Elam and Ellipi,” in the far western part of modern Iran. (James D. Price, “Rosh: An Ancient Land Known to Ezekiel,” Grace Theological Journal, Vol. 6, No. 1, 1985, p. 69.)

So let’s assume that this is true—namely that several “bands” of people known by the name of “Rosh” did live in either the far western portion of Iran or in “an area to the north of the Black Sea”. What does this leave us with? The approach that we are taking here—and which Hitchcock claims to take as well—is that these ancient names provide us only with geographic locations. We then may look at the regions mentioned and include these in the list of regions that will be part of the coming Antichrist Empire. However, what we reject—and again what Hitchcock claims to reject as well—is that we should find in these names particular bloodlines and ethnicities and trace them to their modern day ancestors. You can imagine how difficult this would quickly become. So even if we agreed that Rosh were referring to “an area to the north of the Black Sea”, we are at best left with a very small portion of Russia (roughly 5%) extending from Dagestan and Georgia through Chechnya and northeast to the Ukraine. There may be some credence to this notion in that these portions of Russia are predominantly Muslim. Nevertheless, to use such a small source of information to include all the other 95% of Russia here is to drastically exaggerate the findings.

Admittedly, in light of several political developments such as various military and nuclear agreements that have recently taken place between Russia and Iran, this may be very tempting to do. However, this approach is not only inconsistent, but may also even be irresponsible. Either one uses Ezekiel’s prophecies to lead one to modern regions, or one uses Ezekiel’s prophecies to lead to ethnic peoples, but one cannot simply switch from one approach to the other as it suits one’s particular slant on prophecy to fit today’s newspaper headlines.

Now, having examined the reasons to consider Rosh as a proper name, let us now also consider the reasons not to see Rosh as proper name: The Hebrew word “rosh” is used nearly six hundred other times in the Bible and is each time interpreted as meaning “head, chief, top, best” or something similar. Why then of the nearly six hundred times in the Bible would we make only one exception and translate it here as a proper noun? This really makes little sense. The “Rosh” here in Ezekiel is actually the same “Rosh” that we find in the name “Rosh Hashanah” – “The chief day of the year” - the Jewish New Year. Also, consider this: of the eight nations mentioned, all except one are grandsons of Noah and are mentioned in what is known as “the Table of Nations” in Genesis 10. The other nation is Persia. Persia however was a very well known nation in Ezekiel’s day. It was the head of the fast-growing Medo-Persian Empire that later ruled the entire Middle East, including Babylon where Ezekiel lived at the time he wrote his book. Now juxtapose this to Russia, which didn’t even exist in Ezekiel’s day and wouldn’t for several more centuries. To simply attempt to toss “Rosh” into the list here—an alleged name that is neither a descendant of Noah nor a well-known nation of that day certainly seems out of place. As Bible scholar Dr. Merrill F. Unger admits, “Linguistic evidence for the equation [of Rosh with Russia] is confessedly only presumptive.” During the cold war, of course, this opinion was a popular one. The reasoning of many was that because Russia was the “head” of the atheistic Soviet Union, surely such an anti-God empire was the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. But we must be very careful not to read our assumptions or modern events into Scripture. We must allow Scripture to speak for itself. Unfortunately, many Bible teachers still seem to cling to this interpretation. The notion that Russia is specifically mentioned here in Ezekiel seems to be doubtful and again, even if true, leads us not to Russia but only to a relatively small southern portion of Russia which today is predominately Islamic.



Conclusion


So to sum up, Gog/Antichrist will invade Israel at the Tribulation’s midpoint with an army consisting of Magog, Meschech, Tubal, Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer and Beth Togormah, as well as “many nations” from the area around Israel. After an occupation of almost 3˝ years, Christ will return and destroy them all. It should be pointed out that there will be a larger invasion force that Gog/Antichrist will summon shortly before the 2nd Coming to reinforce the other forces from the initial invasion. These reinforcements will gather at Armageddon in fulfillment of the Armageddon prophecies. The Bible is not clear what reason the Antichrist gives for calling for these reinforcements, only that they are called for. Every nation in the world will respond (including, tragically, the USA or whatever is left of it at that point) and will subsequently be caught in the destruction unleashed by Christ at His 2nd Coming.

Now, I realize that several of you will reject this simply because "That's not what I always heard before." Please try to remember that people used to say the same thing about the world being round instead of being flat. If you can actually point out flaws in these suggestions, by all means please do so. But if you are going to reject it simply because you "can't see it", then it will be difficult to give your point of view any serious consideration.

third hero
Nov 20th 2008, 07:10 AM
third hero, You need to check the term 'prince' in the Hebraic.

In Dan. 10:13, 20, 21, & 21:1 'prince' in the Hebraic is sar; head, official, captain

In Ez. 38:2, 3, & 39:1 'prince' in the Hebraic is nasi; lifted up, exalted

A demonic or angelic being is never lifted up or exalted..They can have a rank as a head or leader, official or captain.

This is why I said not to confuse a demonic being that rules over Gog, with the nation of Gog.

seeker

What are demons but fallen angels?

The only angel that I know of that lost his initial rank and name was Satan. The other named angels still have their ranks, like the prince of Persia, the chief prince of Israel, and the chief prince of Magog.

Also, one has to take into account the fact that the angels, heaven, and God all existed long before this earth did. There are some speculation that the planet existed before creation, and it was destroyed prior to Genesis. (Again, speculation, not fact).

Therefore, it is not demons who are exalted, but angels are, even before they choose to lose their esteemed status in order to follow after Satan.

Gog, like Michael, is a chief prince of a nation. For Michael, it's Israel. For Gog, it's Magog. Magog is the nation, and not Gog, the chief prince of that nation.

third hero
Nov 20th 2008, 07:32 AM
Thou Shalt Have No Other Gog


Now that's a riot! I see that you have been studying a little bit more than the last time that we conversed about this subject, and I must say, I enjoyed all of it! Especially the highlighted portion.

The only thing I would argue with you about is the idea that the splitting of the Mount of Olives occurs at the time of the Lord's return, but that is neither here or there, and it is definitely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

In short, I agree with your total conclusion, and I would like to add that Gog is not only synonymous to the Beast (which most of you call the Antichrist), but I would say that Gog is the Spirit of the Beast, the force that Satan will use to attack God.

On top of that, I still hold to the view that Gog is a fallen Angel, and this one, being of the same class as Michael, is powerful enough to be used by Satan to attack God with the means to overthrow Him. (Although in truth, Gog is not that powerful.)

cross+tie
Nov 21st 2008, 02:54 AM
I for one came to the conclusion that Gog/Magog was Armageddon due to the fact that the Lord will no longer hide his face from Israel and Israel will know the Lord their God from that day forward....

Literalist-Luke
Nov 21st 2008, 03:37 AM
I for one came to the conclusion that Gog/Magog was Armageddon due to the fact that the Lord will no longer hide his face from Israel and Israel will know the Lord their God from that day forward....Yep. :thumbsup:

cross+tie
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:21 AM
Yep. :thumbsup:

actually I was censored in a certain Rapture forum because of my belief on the timing of Gog/Magog......

Literalist-Luke
Nov 22nd 2008, 05:24 AM
actually I was censored in a certain Rapture forum because of my belief on the timing of Gog/Magog......http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/twitch.gif You gotta be kiddin' me. On what basis?

DurbanDude
Nov 22nd 2008, 07:14 AM
Literalist-Luke

In an earlier post you mention that there are two arguments against Gog being the armies of the antichrist. There are actually more.

The antichrist rules Israel and has taken over Israel earlier according to Daniel 11. The antichrist sets himself up as God in Israel. Then at the end, he is alarmed by reports to the north and the east, and sets up his tent in Israel (his tent means his temporary dwelling place). Daniel 11. If you study the antichrist you see that he has direct control over 3 regions (small horn that rises over 3 of the ten horns-Daniel 7),which implies that although the ten horns give him power (Rev) he is only in indirect control over all the other regions.

11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.


So he is alarmed by reports to the north and the east , which would be the direction of the attacking armies of Gog from an Israel perspective. Why is the antichrist alarmed by his own armies?? Because they are not his own armies but the attacking hordes of Gog and the Assyrian. Do Gog and the Assyrian have any enemies to the north and east of their countries .... I haven't seen anything like this mentioned in the bible , yet you say the antichrist associated with Gog.

As far as I can see this fits in with what I have always heard you say that the Mahdi will initially have the direct and indirect support of the Moslems but then will deceive the Moslems by declaring himself god when the Moslems believe that no man can be a god. They may publicly conform for those last 3.5 years but secrectly they are planning a rebellion when they attack the antichrist in Israel at the end.

This is back to our old debate on who is in ultimate control , the Romans or the Moslems. I believe Daniel shows us clearly that Rome is the fourth kingdom of Roman control and I am prepared to show this point all over again in another thread if you would like to debate that point.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 22nd 2008, 07:23 AM
Literalist-Luke

In an earlier post you mention that there are two arguments against Gog being the armies of the antichrist. There are actually more.

The antichrist rules Israel and has taken over Israel earlier according to Daniel 11. The antichrist sets himself up as God in Israel. Then at the end, he is alarmed by reports to the north and the east, and sets up his tent in Israel (his tent means his temporary dwelling place). Daniel 11. If you study the antichrist you see that he has direct control over 3 regions (small horn that rises over 3 of the ten horns-Daniel 7),which implies that although the ten horns give him power (Rev) he is only in indirect control over all the other regions. If you study which countries he has direct control over and which countries he does not control you can see that in fact the countries he does not have direct control over are the countries that are allies of Gog.

11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.


So he is alarmed by reports to the north and the east , which would be the direction of the attacking armies of Gog from an Israel perspective. Why is the antichrist alarmed by his own armies?? Because they are not his own armies but the attacking hordes of Gog and the Assyrian. Do Gog and the Assyrian have any enemies to the north and east of their countries .... I haven't seen anything like this mentioned in the bible , yet you say the antichrist associated with Gog.

As far as I can see this fits in with what I have always heard you say that the Mahdi will initially have the direct and indirect support of the Moslems but then will deceive the Moslems by declaring himself god when the Moslems believe that no man can be a god. They may publicly conform for those last 3.5 years but secrectly they are planning a rebellion when they attack the antichrist in Israel at the end.

This is back to our old debate on who is in ultimate control , the Romans or the Moslems. I believe Daniel shows us clearly that Rome is the fourth kingdom of Roman control and I am prepared to show this point all over again in another thread if you would like to debate that point.Sometime in the next few days, I would actually be very interested in discussing this. I've been doing some research on my own the last few days wherein I've been learning that, while still I believe my information about Islam is correct, I'm possibly looking at too small a picture. Like maybe Islam isn't the one pulling the strings, but that Islam's strings might be getting pulled by somebody more back in the background. Your suggestion about Gog/Magog could add an interesting element to that, which I would definitely be interested in exploring. Unfortunately, I'm booked pretty solid until at least Sunday evening. If you haven't seen anything else pop up from me about this by late Sunday night or Monday, why don't you PM me or something to make sure I don't forget? :yes:

DurbanDude
Nov 22nd 2008, 07:51 AM
LL , I just want to show a point that is always controversial but if you really think about it , it is the truth.

The beast of Daniel 7 is the fourth consecutive empire ,which you know that I believe is Rome.
Now the Beast of Revelation has subtle differences but is obviously a prophecy about the same time and events as Daniel.

In Revelation we see that the final beast is one that ceases to exist and then re-appears , yet Daniel says this same beast is one that continuously grows until it dominates the whole earth. In Daniel the last manifestation of this beast is the small horn that dominates the other 3 horns and the whole earth.

Rev:
17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The Revelation beast is the final outworking of the Roman Empire, but not based in Rome. We know this because the woman of Rev 17:18 (the city that rules over the kings of the earth- Rome) rides this final beast but is not this final beast. The final manifestation of the beast of Daniel is the little horn (small country) that rises up. Relate this to the beast of Rev that ceased to exist at the time of the writing of Revelation (late first century AD), yet reappears to amaze only the unsaved we can get to an interesting conclusion.

Israel is a small country that is rising up to dominate other countries and is the throne of the antichrist and its re-appearing amazed the world, but not Christians who were expecting it.

Conclusion: I believe Rome will continue to manipulate Israel and Islam until there is world unity with the antichrist ruling. I think Islam will turn on the antichrist at the end, knowing it has been deceived. The antichrist will be alarmed when there is this attack from the north and the east (Daniel 11) and defend his throne, Jerusalem, at which time the Jews will cry out to their true Messiah to save them, ushering in the second coming. (refer to Joel)

DurbanDude
Nov 22nd 2008, 08:04 AM
Sometime in the next few days, I would actually be very interested in discussing this. I've been doing some research on my own the last few days wherein I've been learning that, while still I believe my information about Islam is correct, I'm possibly looking at too small a picture. Like maybe Islam isn't the one pulling the strings, but that Islam's strings might be getting pulled by somebody more back in the background. Your suggestion about Gog/Magog could add an interesting element to that, which I would definitely be interested in exploring. Unfortunately, I'm booked pretty solid until at least Sunday evening. If you haven't seen anything else pop up from me about this by late Sunday night or Monday, why don't you PM me or something to make sure I don't forget? :yes:

Cool , otherwise we can discuss this later.

seeker_truth
Nov 24th 2008, 08:43 AM
When Nebuchadnezzar conquered Israel in 586 BC, he took many Jews in captivity to Babylon. They were not scattered throughout the world’s nations however, they were still contained almost entirely within the boundaries of the Babylonian empire. There was even still a significant Jewish population in the land of Israel itself, including the prophet Jeremiah. Later the Babylonian territory was conquered by Persia and then the Greeks, but the Jews were still not scattered among the “nations”. Certainly the land of Israel was not “desolate” during this time because it was still thoroughly populated. The scattering among the nations did not occur until Israel was obliterated by the Romans in 70 AD, so those who attempt to argue that this description of Israel has already been historically fulfilled are in error. Only modern Israel since 1948 could possibly fit this description.
Literalist-Luke,
The scattering of the people:
Rome was not the only nation responsible for scattering the tribes of Israel....

"Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.
And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.
And the LORD shewed me four carpenters.
Then said I, What come these to do? And he spake, saying, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up his head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter it." Zech. 1:18-21

Notice in v.21 that the number of Gentile horns are not mentioned, which is why this verse refers only to Judah, and not the northern kingdom of Israel.


The first horn, Assyrian King Shalmanssar, seized the house of Israel, the northern kingdom, 722-21.


Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar, the second horn, conquered and scattered Judah and Jerusalem, the southern kingdom, starting in 606 BC.


Roman King Vespasian, the third horn, was responsible for the desolation of Judah and the destruction of Jerusalem, 70-73 AD.


Judah and Jerusalem must be occupied by the Jewish people before a king can scatter them, which means that a fourth king will have to appear sometime after 1967, a prophecy that has yet to be accomplished.




Ezekiel also gives us specific names of nations that will be involved in this invasion of Israel. Listed in the order used by Ezekiel, they are Magog, Meschech, Tubal, Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer and Beth Togormah, as well as “many nations with you.” Had you known the modern names of these places, you might of had a clearer picture of their role in the end time.


Actually, in order to understand who Revelation 20’s Gog is, all one must really do is take a look at who Antichrist is. Antichrist, quite simply, is the closest Satan can get to creating the “devil incarnate”. There are actually passages of Scripture that shift from speaking of Satan to speaking of the Antichrist seamlessly as if they are one and the same, such as Isaiah 14. And as we find in Revelation 13 and 17, Satan will even share his worship with Antichrist. Simply stated, Antichrist is Satan’s puppet that he will use to attack Jerusalem. And in Revelation 20, Gog is also Satan’s puppet that will serve the very same purpose, trying to wipe out Israel and as a consequence, God’s kingdom. In terms of both role and function, Antichrist and the Gog of Revelation are essentially the same. Even as Satan will raise up a man to carry out his work in the Tribulation, so will Satan also raise up another man to carry out his final rebellion against God one more time at the end of the Millennium. Both times, the leader of Satan’s rebellion against Jerusalem is referred to as Gog and his army is called Magog. Why should we view the basic nature of the first Gog as being any different than the second? Those who view Ezekiel’s Gog as different from Antichrist find themselves at a loss to provide any explanation on this matter.
Gog and the allied Magog nations surround the kingdom of the false prophet (antichrist), which makes sense knowing that Gog(Turkey), Persia(Iran), Ethiopia(Sudan, Somalia, Djiboui, Eritrea, modern day Ethiopia), and Libya(which hasn't changed much in location or size,but might include Tunisia and Algeria), surround quite a few Arab nations and Israel.

Also, the Magog nations do not receive the mark of the beast. Thus, they are not thrown into the lake of fire, but live a thousand years, to fight another day.

The false prophet and those of his kingdom must receive a mark in their forehead or hand, which seals them with an early judgment, the lake of fire. Rev.19:20.



Ezekiel says specifically of Gog that other biblical prophets spoke of him in times past:

“This is what the Sovereign Lord says: ‘You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them.’” —Ezekiel 38:17
The question must be asked then, if Gog is spoken of by Israel’s former prophets prior to Ezekiel but Gog is not the Antichrist, then where are these references?
Ez.38:17 is a prophetic verse, a question being directed toward Gog, a modern nation, asking if he is that nation that the Lord spoke of by his prophets of old, concerning that day when the Lord would bring Gog against Israel.

These two prophets were Ezekiel (obviously), and the other, Isaiah..
"And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:" Isa.5:26

seeker

seeker_truth
Nov 30th 2008, 11:35 AM
[quote=Literalist-Luke;1874389]
The Description of Gog’s Defeat


There is another strong reason to equate Gog with the Antichrist. It is because the descriptions concerning the destruction of Gog and his armies are strikingly similar to the destruction of the Antichrist and his armies in Revelation and Zechariah. For example:

“I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD. Every man's sword will be against his fellow. I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals. You will fall in the open field, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the Lord. ——Ezekiel 38:22; 39:3-6

Similarly in Revelation, concerning the destruction of the Antichrist and his armies, we read:

“Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter.’ He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, ‘Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.’ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.” —Revelation 19:11-21


Luke, You stated that the similarities of the defeated armies of Gog, and the false prophet(antichrist) implies that this is a battle led by one person with two identities; a theory obtained through your understanding of Ezekiel 38-39, Zechariah 14, and Revelation 19.

I can relate to your view of this end time battle, a conflict that is neither easy to define, nor resolve.

You might consider this; the Lord provided Ezekiel with most of the details concerning Gog, while assigning Daniel the task of elaborating upon the false prophet, for the purpose of eliminating any confusion as to their separate identities, or their various roles played out in the Revelation

In Ez.38-39 we are given a rather short description of "Gog, the land of magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal."

Using my nation as an example, I might say, 'United States, the land of North America, the chief prince of Union and Confederacy'.

Simply put, Meshech and Tubal were ancient tribal regions of modern day Turkey, located in the eastern and western sections of the nation, while the Union and Confederacy were past ancestral regions of the United States, located in the north and the south.

We've already been over the meaning of "chief prince" and while I agree with the definition of "chief" meaning 'head', I disagree with your interchanging of the term "prince" in Ez.38:2,3; 39:1, a verb meaning 'lifted up', with the term "prince" in Dan. 10:13, 20, 21; 12:1, which is used as a noun to define a title of a spiritual being.

When the correct terms are used we read 'Gog, the land of magog, the head lifted up of Meshech and Tubal'...

A straightforward example using my own nation would read, 'United States, the land of North America, the head lifted up of Union and Confederacy'.
I realize that this sounds a bit funny, but it provides more meaning then the terms north and south.

While this might help with the definition of Gog as a nation, we are still left with sorting out, and explaining the battle of the Magog nations, which have boggled the minds of a great many of us, being that this is not one battle; rather, it is two obscure confrontations, plus one vividly expressed conclusion to a Third World War.

Luke, I'll bring it to a phase here by agreeing with you on this one particular issue...The final battle does not take place prior to the false prophet(antichrist)..However, I also believe that this battle does take place in a short space of time prior to and subsequent to his judgment.

I'll finish up my written work on the three battles in Ez.38-39, and hopefully post it by tomorrow.

I've written vaguely on this subject since 1978-79, and only resonantly felt motivated enough to write it down in detail. This is due to a condition that I've labeled as 'a language arts impediment'.:(

And, while it might take most of you a few moments to organize a thought and express it, it take me hours, and even days until I'm able to post a coherent response.

seeker

Literalist-Luke
Dec 1st 2008, 06:22 AM
Good points, thanks.

dan
Dec 5th 2008, 03:51 AM
Tubal is Spain:

* Tubal, son of Japheth. He is connected with the Tabali, an Anatolian tribe, and both the Iberians of the Caucasus and those of the Iberian peninsula (modern Spain and Portugal), as well as Illyrians and Italics. In the book of Jubilees he was bequeathed the three 'tongues' of Europe.

Meshech are the ancestors of Russians, specifically Georgians:

* Meshech, son of Japheth. He is regarded as the eponym of the Mushki Phrygian tribe of Anatolia who, like the Tabali, contributed to the collapse of the Hittites ca. 1200 BC. The Mushki are considered one of the ancestors of the Georgians, but also became connected with the Sea Peoples who roved the Mediterranean Sea.

http://www.answers.com/topic/sons-of-noah

When the Bible isn't enough, try Answers.com

iconoclast2012
Feb 9th 2009, 10:02 PM
Yep. :thumbsup:
...hey luke...,Thoroughly anointed & a powerfull missive bro. & G.B.Y. for that post... but OOOOP'S...Here's the cunundrum...."PROBLEM"....GOG-MAGOG & THE battle of Armegedon(DAY OF THE LORD) are two distinct & seperate battles...How do we know this...?...Ezekiel 39:2...we read "And I will turn thee back, and leave but the 'sixth part' of thee,and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel...Clearly a remnant of GOG is left( a 6th.) Whereas the battle of Armegedon ...all are consumed by the very Breath of the Lord...in the valley of HAR_MEGIDDO....Is GOG the Antichrist...? That can only be determined based upon your interpretation of DAN.11:40...Do you see "two" or... "three"... combatants in v.40...? As we clearly see ..."HIM"...emerging victorious until V.45...

quiet dove
Feb 10th 2009, 12:56 AM
...hey luke...,Thoroughly anointed & a powerfull missive bro. & G.B.Y. for that post... but OOOOP'S...Here's the cunundrum...."PROBLEM"....GOG-MAGOG & THE battle of Armegedon(DAY OF THE LORD) are two distinct & seperate battles...How do we know this...?...Ezekiel 39:2...we read "And I will turn thee back, and leave but the 'sixth part' of thee,and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel...Clearly a remnant of GOG is left( a 6th.) Whereas the battle of Armegedon ...all are consumed by the very Breath of the Lord...in the valley of HAR_MEGIDDO....Is GOG the Antichrist...? That can only be determined based upon your interpretation of DAN.11:40...Do you see "two" or... "three"... combatants in v.40...? As we clearly see ..."HIM"...emerging victorious until V.45...

FYI: I have not seen Luke about lately, hopefully he will return soon.

third hero
Feb 10th 2009, 02:01 AM
...hey luke...,Thoroughly anointed & a powerfull missive bro. & G.B.Y. for that post... but OOOOP'S...Here's the cunundrum...."PROBLEM"....GOG-MAGOG & THE battle of Armegedon(DAY OF THE LORD) are two distinct & seperate battles...How do we know this...?...Ezekiel 39:2...we read "And I will turn thee back, and leave but the 'sixth part' of thee,and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel...Clearly a remnant of GOG is left( a 6th.) Whereas the battle of Armegedon ...all are consumed by the very Breath of the Lord...in the valley of HAR_MEGIDDO....Is GOG the Antichrist...? That can only be determined based upon your interpretation of DAN.11:40...Do you see "two" or... "three"... combatants in v.40...? As we clearly see ..."HIM"...emerging victorious until V.45...

Well, I'm not luke, but I'll try my best.

First, the Battle at Armageddon is not a different battle from the one mentioned in Ezekiel 39. The reason is because the results are the same, especially the portion where all who are at the Valley that will be renamed "HamonGog" will house the remains of all who have participated in that battle, as they are all eaten by birds after the Lord destroys them. The remnant are those who are turned back BEFORE that battle, which is what I got when I read that portion of scripture. Like the Battle at Armageddon, there are no survivors of that battle in Ezekiel 39.

Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that [is] with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and [to] the beasts of the field to be devoured. Ezekiel 39:4

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Revelation 19:20-21

It's the same result because it is the same battle. Ezekiel foresaw it first, and the Lord showed John how Ezekiel's prophecy will be fulfilled.

I personally believe that Gog is the angel of the nation of Magog. I believe that this being is the Spirit of the Beast, (what you call THE AntiChrist). Although the general consensus is that Gog is indeed the spirit of the AntiChrist.

The last question has me confused. I know that there ia a connection between the time of Darkness that is prophesied in Revelation 16, (which is when the kingdom of the beast goes into darkness and dispair, which would result in things like revolts, wars and riots everywhere... and who could blame them, after having painful sores sprout all over their bodies, having the sun beam down on them like heat lamps and the water that they need to drink becomes blood that is utterly undrinkable, unless you are a vampire anyway...), but I can not figure out how Daniel 11 factors into the equation. I know that most of that prophecy there has been initially fulfilled with Antochius Epiphanes, but I also know that this is the only section that can be conclusively proven to hold a dual fulfillment. I think Luke may better aid you in understanding that one.

Well, I hope this helps a little.

DurbanDude
Feb 10th 2009, 10:03 AM
...hey luke...,Thoroughly anointed & a powerfull missive bro. & G.B.Y. for that post... but OOOOP'S...Here's the cunundrum...."PROBLEM"....GOG-MAGOG & THE battle of Armegedon(DAY OF THE LORD) are two distinct & seperate battles...How do we know this...?...Ezekiel 39:2...we read "And I will turn thee back, and leave but the 'sixth part' of thee,and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel...Clearly a remnant of GOG is left( a 6th.) Whereas the battle of Armegedon ...all are consumed by the very Breath of the Lord...in the valley of HAR_MEGIDDO....Is GOG the Antichrist...? That can only be determined based upon your interpretation of DAN.11:40...Do you see "two" or... "three"... combatants in v.40...? As we clearly see ..."HIM"...emerging victorious until V.45...

hey Icon, I was just reading your post, and frankly disagree here. I agree with LL that Gog is an end-times battle, the context is always clear when Gog is mentioned.

Most parties, amillenialists and pre-mills seem to agree when Jesus comes again it will be a RENEWED earth. The old earth will not be completely annihilated.There are many verses that describe how this current earth lasts forever. So when a sixth part of Gog survives, this is on the renewed earth after the second coming.

iconoclast2012
Feb 10th 2009, 05:23 PM
hey Icon, I was just reading your post, and frankly disagree here. I agree with LL that Gog is an end-times battle, the context is always clear when Gog is mentioned.

Most parties, amillenialists and pre-mills seem to agree when Jesus comes again it will be a RENEWED earth. The old earth will not be completely annihilated.There are many verses that describe how this current earth lasts forever. So when a sixth part of Gog survives, this is on the renewed earth after the second coming.
...hey DoubleD...,Just surfed in but can't stay...However, I'll pose the same question to u and everyone else here....as I find this thread fascinating...DO YOU SEE..."TWO"...OR..."THREE" COMBATANT'S....IN DAN.11:40....?....as this scripture hold's the key to the entire GOG_MAGOG battle....SELAH...

DurbanDude
Feb 11th 2009, 06:17 AM
...hey DoubleD...,Just surfed in but can't stay...However, I'll pose the same question to u and everyone else here....as I find this thread fascinating...DO YOU SEE..."TWO"...OR..."THREE" COMBATANT'S....IN DAN.11:40....?....as this scripture hold's the key to the entire GOG_MAGOG battle....SELAH...

hey Icon, there are 3 , but the end-times battle is Daniel 11:44 when Gog attacks the antichrist in Israel.

Veretax
Feb 11th 2009, 02:13 PM
My problem with interpretting the Gog/Magog Invasion (with Gomer and all his bands, togarmah, Persia, Eythiopia, Libya) as being the same as armageddon is this.


Rev 16 speaks about an army gathering at Armageddon. It doesn't specifically say those countries. that is one battle at megido, but later after the 1000 Year reign in revelation 20:7-10 Gog and Magog are mentioned again. This is CLEARLY a different battle then the one mentioned in Chapter 16, so there must be at least two battles at this site in the "end times"

Re 20:7-10 (NKJV)

Satanic Rebellion Crushed

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:7-10 (NKJV)



However, I can't seem to find this sixth remnant of Gog that the other poster mentions either. I am more of the belief that the other battle at Megiddo involves different parties.

iconoclast2012
Feb 11th 2009, 04:40 PM
...hey there Veretax, & g-d bless the Mountaneer state...I know it well...I posted the verse in Ezekiel 39:2, and the reason u don't see "the sixth part of thee", is because it's been omitted from the "NKJV", and every other "bible", other than the original K.J.V. and not just that portion of scripture, but words that are changed & omitted in verses too numerous to mention....Moral of this story, accept no substitutes....get a K.J.V....! & biblegateway is an excellent resource for comparative scripture readin'....

Veretax
Feb 11th 2009, 05:52 PM
...hey there Veretax, & g-d bless the Mountaneer state...I know it well...I posted the verse in Ezekiel 39:2, and the reason u don't see "the sixth part of thee", is because it's been omitted from the "NKJV", and every other "bible", other than the original K.J.V. and not just that portion of scripture, but words that are changed & omitted in verses too numerous to mention....Moral of this story, accept no substitutes....get a K.J.V....! & biblegateway is an excellent resource for comparative scripture readin'....

Ah thanks, when I respond to posts here I typically have KJV and NKJV side by side, I somehow missed the sixth part in the KJV part, but I see it now.

that brings me to the question as to why the NKJV doesn't have that part? I don't have any understanding where hebrew is concerned, is it a textual issue where some texts lack it?

quiet dove
Feb 11th 2009, 07:52 PM
Ah thanks, when I respond to posts here I typically have KJV and NKJV side by side, I somehow missed the sixth part in the KJV part, but I see it now.

that brings me to the question as to why the NKJV doesn't have that part? I don't have any understanding where hebrew is concerned, is it a textual issue where some texts lack it?

I can't answer that question but when I look in the ISA (Interlinear Scripture Analyzer) it does not have anything about the sixth part. It reads:

...and I reverse you, and I lure you, and I bring you up from recesses of north, and I bring you on mountains of Israel....

I don't know what that means, just wondering myself.

DurbanDude
Feb 11th 2009, 08:18 PM
My problem with interpretting the Gog/Magog Invasion (with Gomer and all his bands, togarmah, Persia, Eythiopia, Libya) as being the same as armageddon is this.


Rev 16 speaks about an army gathering at Armageddon. It doesn't specifically say those countries. that is one battle at megido, but later after the 1000 Year reign in revelation 20:7-10 Gog and Magog are mentioned again. This is CLEARLY a different battle then the one mentioned in Chapter 16, so there must be at least two battles at this site in the "end times"

Re 20:7-10 (NKJV)

Satanic Rebellion Crushed

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:7-10 (NKJV)



However, I can't seem to find this sixth remnant of Gog that the other poster mentions either. I am more of the belief that the other battle at Megiddo involves different parties.

Hi Veretax, here's the part about the 6th part of Gog:

Ezekiel 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

The way I understand it, the final battle (at Megiddo) just before Jesus comes is regularly described as the northern army or Gog. Ezekiel describes this army as Gog, Joel as the northern army, and Daniel 11 refers to this army as "reports from the north and east", the consistent pattern is that this final war involves the northern army attacking Israel. Specific countries are sometimes described when this attack is described, involving mainly middle eastern countries, Syria, turkey, Iran , Iraq, sometimes Libya.

Then Rev 20 describes a different attack, this is not a northern army at all, but an army from the four quarters of earth. Four quarters equals the whole earth, it is a different attack to the attack of the northern army. The only reason that Gog is mentioned , is that it is the only one of the four quarters of earth that could be named at that time, but this does not mean to exclude the other 3/4 of earth. The far south (Antartica?), far west (Americas?) , and far east (Japan?) were unknown to the Jews.

20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

iconoclast2012
Feb 12th 2009, 12:32 PM
...In DAN.11:40...we read..."And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind,with chariots,and with horsemen,and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over..." As has been the interpretation understood by many a bible "scholar" & countless others, we witness the two main combatants here the "king of the south" versus the "king of the north"...(adversaries}...are they not....?...However let's read it again.... "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over..." The question I see here is whether or not we see a third entity here...."HIM"....Well now...this would put a mighty different spin on this scripture would it not....?.... The reason I am so focused on DAN. 11:40 is that for quite some time now I have believed it to be in effect "ipso facto" beyond any shadow of a doubt "THE HIGHLIGHT" of Ezekiels GOG_MAGOG battle and I will certainly expand & expound on this shortly...what say ye....

iconoclast2012
Feb 13th 2009, 02:13 PM
...In DAN.11:40...we read..."And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind,with chariots,and with horsemen,and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over..." As has been the interpretation understood by many a bible "scholar" & countless others, we witness the two main combatants here the "king of the south" versus the "king of the north"...(adversaries}...are they not....?...However let's read it again.... "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over..." The question I see here is whether or not we see a third entity here...."HIM"....Well now...this would put a mighty different spin on this scripture would it not....?.... The reason I am so focused on DAN. 11:40 is that for quite some time now I have believed it to be in effect "ipso facto" beyond any shadow of a doubt "THE HIGHLIGHT" of Ezekiels GOG_MAGOG battle and I will certainly expand & expound on this shortly...what say ye....
The uncovering of "HIM" in DAN.11:40, turns this scripture inside out & upside down, because we can no longer look at "the king of the south" & "the king of the north" as "adversaries"...as has been the long held teaching of many....but they're in effect "ALLIES" as Ezekiel depicts in 38:5....Whoa brethren ...this sheds some completely contrasting light on what I've previously read & studied over the course of the past twenty years. The significance of "HIM" is tantamount to understanding the following scriptures remaining in DAN.11:41-45. Where there is no longer any mention of "the king of the south or north" by name, but Dan. interjects the personal pronouns, "HE" & "HIM". As we continue, we read in V;41 "He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown"...Well now, what exactly happens here...? Is this the triumphant entry into Jerusalem, where "He's proclaimed as the conquering saviour of Israel, having vanquished the "Moslem hordes"...."(and many countries shall be overthrown)" And what "many countries" might these be...? The king of the south & north , perhaps...? Now we all know that it's the LORD that delivers Israel, however i'm more than sure that through "HIS" deceit,"HE" takes full credit for this "miraculous" victory, after all "who is able to make war with "HIM"....? continuing in V.41 we read...":but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the chief of the children of Ammon"....In stark contrast to the beginning of this verse (entry & over throwing many countries) here we see tiny little Jordan "escape" out of his hand...Jordan, a long time ally of the "west"... will continue shortly....

iconoclast2012
Feb 15th 2009, 04:26 PM
hey Icon, there are 3 , but the end-times battle is Daniel 11:44 when Gog attacks the antichrist in Israel.
Hey there DoubleD, ...Did I see a light bulb go on in ur head when u uncovered "him" in V.40...? :idea:.....!!! & to paraphrase the late johnny cochrane...."If V.44 don't fit.....I must omit".....:lol:.....! How do u see the battle of GOG_MAGOG in V.44....? After reading of GOG_MAGOG's defeat & overthrow in V.40b & 41..? Shall we get to the very bottom of this cunundrum....(puzzling problem)...?

iconoclast2012
Feb 24th 2009, 11:18 PM
I was knockin' around the old archives when I stumbled across some maps, after a little tinkering I came up with an updated & possibe future rendition of the GOG_MAGOG alignment.....feast ur eyes....I do have an adjoining study....but i'm saving that for later....http://11th-hour.info/Articles/Gog_Maps.html

DurbanDude
Mar 13th 2009, 06:53 AM
Hey there DoubleD, ...Did I see a light bulb go on in ur head when u uncovered "him" in V.40...? :idea:.....!!! & to paraphrase the late johnny cochrane...."If V.44 don't fit.....I must omit".....:lol:.....! How do u see the battle of GOG_MAGOG in V.44....? After reading of GOG_MAGOG's defeat & overthrow in V.40b & 41..? Shall we get to the very bottom of this cunundrum....(puzzling problem)...?

Nice map! verse 40 and 44 I believe are about the same war right at the end. Verses 36 to 40 are generalised verses of the antichrist's nature and conquest, ending in the great war when he is attacked (verse 40).

Then verse 41 to 44 are a repeat story of the same period, describing the nations initially conquered , and then the great war when he is attacked. Note here, he does take over Egypt, and yet Egypt is among the attacking nations at the end. This speaks of a rebellion from Muslim countries that are western allies (part of the MU group).

So from verse 40 we see that the king of the north and the king of the south will attack them (your map correctly identifies these kings). And from verse 44 we see he is attacked from the north and the east.

Conclusion: The South, North and East attack him, it therefore appears the antichrist is from the West. Interesting!!

Partaker of Christ
Nov 1st 2009, 10:46 PM
I was knockin' around the old archives when I stumbled across some maps, after a little tinkering I came up with an updated & possibe future rendition of the GOG_MAGOG alignment.....feast ur eyes....I do have an adjoining study....but i'm saving that for later....http://11th-hour.info/Articles/Gog_Maps.html

Just thought that I would bump for these maps, and this great thread. I particularly like Litralist Luke's contribution on Gog and Magog.

DurbanDude
Nov 3rd 2009, 07:43 AM
Just thought that I would bump for these maps, and this great thread. I particularly like Litralist Luke's contribution on Gog and Magog.

Hi Partaker,

I learnt a lot from Literalist Luke when he was a regular on this site, but disagreed with his relating the antichrist to Gog as per this thread. I dealt with this objection in post 18 of this thread.

The speculation that somehow modern Israel will be a renegade state that needs to be attacked by the antichrist is completely unscriptural. Daniel 11 is clear that the antichrist takes over Israel (the beautiful land) earlier, and yet never manages direct control over the more eastern based Arabic states. Other scripture (Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Rev 17) is clear that the fourth empire takes over the whole world, all ten regions, yet controls 3 of the ten directly (Daniel 7), the rest escape his direct control.

Whichever way we look at it, Israel is under the control of the antichrist and does not need to be attacked. Actually the fourth empire tramples over the whole world. The antichrist does not need to attack anyone because the bible is clear he controls the whole world (albeit through an 'iron and clay' loose religious alliance). The attack on Israel is scripturally a surprise attack on the antichrist.

The sudden attack from the north and the east alarm the antichrist, if the antichrist is Gog, how then can Gog be alarmed by attacks from the north and the east of Gog, while Gog is attacking Israel from the north and the east? This does not make any sense unless Gog is Turkey and Russia is allied to Israel and is busy attacking the rear end of Gog while Gog is attacking Israel from the same direction. I personally think the scriptural version that the antichrist had taken over the beautiful land already (Daniel 11) and then undergoes a surprise attack from the north and the east is pretty clear, and does not need to be played with.

We then get the scenario that the armies are gathered against eachother against God, not with eachother against God. Armageddon is a war between two evil armies , and both armies will be destroyed at the great winepress of Armageddon.

Gog will be attacking God's chosen out of greed and as a response to religious deception of the antichrist. The antichrist will be defending his evil empire. The two armies will meet in Israel where the Jews will cry out to their true saviour to intervene. This ushers in the second coming.

Aservantonthemount
Nov 4th 2009, 11:10 PM
Hi Partaker,

I learnt a lot from Literalist Luke when he was a regular on this site, but disagreed with his relating the antichrist to Gog as per this thread. I dealt with this objection in post 18 of this thread.

The speculation that somehow modern Israel will be a renegade state that needs to be attacked by the antichrist is completely unscriptural. Daniel 11 is clear that the antichrist takes over Israel (the beautiful land) earlier, and yet never manages direct control over the more eastern based Arabic states. Other scripture (Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Rev 17) is clear that the fourth empire takes over the whole world, all ten regions, yet controls 3 of the ten directly (Daniel 7), the rest escape his direct control.

Whichever way we look at it, Israel is under the control of the antichrist and does not need to be attacked. Actually the fourth empire tramples over the whole world. The antichrist does not need to attack anyone because the bible is clear he controls the whole world (albeit through an 'iron and clay' loose religious alliance). The attack on Israel is scripturally a surprise attack on the antichrist.

The sudden attack from the north and the east alarm the antichrist, if the antichrist is Gog, how then can Gog be alarmed by attacks from the north and the east of Gog, while Gog is attacking Israel from the north and the east? This does not make any sense unless Gog is Turkey and Russia is allied to Israel and is busy attacking the rear end of Gog while Gog is attacking Israel from the same direction. I personally think the scriptural version that the antichrist had taken over the beautiful land already (Daniel 11) and then undergoes a surprise attack from the north and the east is pretty clear, and does not need to be played with.

We then get the scenario that the armies are gathered against eachother against God, not with eachother against God. Armageddon is a war between two evil armies , and both armies will be destroyed at the great winepress of Armageddon.

Gog will be attacking God's chosen out of greed and as a response to religious deception of the antichrist. The antichrist will be defending his evil empire. The two armies will meet in Israel where the Jews will cry out to their true saviour to intervene. This ushers in the second coming.

I have to disagree. Israel must be attacked, because without the Beast attacking Israel, the Great Tribulation can not happen. It is my opinion that Even as Israel will be under the control of the Beast states before the Great Tribulation, I believe that there will be concessions that will give Israel the appearance of unparalleled freedom. It is my opinion that during this time of relative peace, when the Prophets of Revelation 11 are on this earth, Israel will have either rebuilt, or will rebuild the Temple and begin the sacrifices that have long since been done away with by Rome. It is my opinion that at the end of this time period when the AntiChrist will show his hand, and declare himself to be God, which will instantly incur the wrath of Israel. This, to me, will be the catalyst that will cause the AntiChrist to launch an all-out assault against Jerusalem, and Israel. This will spark the fulfillment of several Old and New Testament prophecies that will include the beginning of the Great Tribulation.

So, I can see a correlation between the AntiChrist and Gog, in a way. It is my opinion that Gog is a spirit not unlike Michael in the Old Testament who is in league with Satan, and I will use Ezekiel 38:3 as an example.

DurbanDude
Nov 5th 2009, 08:48 AM
I have to disagree. Israel must be attacked, because without the Beast attacking Israel, the Great Tribulation can not happen. It is my opinion that Even as Israel will be under the control of the Beast states before the Great Tribulation, I believe that there will be concessions that will give Israel the appearance of unparalleled freedom. It is my opinion that during this time of relative peace, when the Prophets of Revelation 11 are on this earth, Israel will have either rebuilt, or will rebuild the Temple and begin the sacrifices that have long since been done away with by Rome. It is my opinion that at the end of this time period when the AntiChrist will show his hand, and declare himself to be God, which will instantly incur the wrath of Israel. This, to me, will be the catalyst that will cause the AntiChrist to launch an all-out assault against Jerusalem, and Israel. This will spark the fulfillment of several Old and New Testament prophecies that will include the beginning of the Great Tribulation.

So, I can see a correlation between the AntiChrist and Gog, in a way. It is my opinion that Gog is a spirit not unlike Michael in the Old Testament who is in league with Satan, and I will use Ezekiel 38:3 as an example.

Your explanation doesn't cover my main point. My point is that it is the antichrist that is alarmed by reports from the north and the east, just before he comes to his end and the resurrection occurs (ref Daniel 11 and Dan 12:1)

If he is Gog, or allied to Gog, then he and his allies would be attacking at that moment from the north and the east. Why then is he alarmed by reports from the north and the east if he is attackng from those two directions with his allies?

Aservantonthemount
Nov 5th 2009, 10:02 PM
Your explanation doesn't cover my main point. My point is that it is the antichrist that is alarmed by reports from the north and the east, just before he comes to his end and the resurrection occurs (ref Daniel 11 and Dan 12:1)

If he is Gog, or allied to Gog, then he and his allies would be attacking at that moment from the north and the east. Why then is he alarmed by reports from the north and the east if he is attackng from those two directions with his allies?

That is assuming that the events that are listed in Daniel 10-12 are exclusively covered by the AntiChrist. According to my research, these prophecies, although they show signs of a dual-fulfillment, (especially chapter 12), they primarily deal with the time of the Grecians, and more importantly, the generals of Alexander the Great. If memory serves me well, it is my opinion that Antochius Epiphanies was the general that fulfilled most of those prophecies, including the ones concerning the "King of the North". It is my opinion that most of Daniel 10-11 was already fulfilled, and thus has nothing to do with the next AntiChrist, which I associate with Gog, the spirit of the AntiChrist.

DurbanDude
Nov 6th 2009, 06:45 AM
That is assuming that the events that are listed in Daniel 10-12 are exclusively covered by the AntiChrist. According to my research, these prophecies, although they show signs of a dual-fulfillment, (especially chapter 12), they primarily deal with the time of the Grecians, and more importantly, the generals of Alexander the Great. If memory serves me well, it is my opinion that Antochius Epiphanies was the general that fulfilled most of those prophecies, including the ones concerning the "King of the North". It is my opinion that most of Daniel 10-11 was already fulfilled, and thus has nothing to do with the next AntiChrist, which I associate with Gog, the spirit of the AntiChrist.

I completely agree that "most" of Daniel 10-12 was historically fulfilled.

To be precise, right up until Daniel 11:35 we have a precise historical fulfilment, it is an amazing reflection of historically proven prophetic fulfilment. The reason is that the book of Daniel is known to have existed prior to the fulfilments by those various kings , especially Antiochus IV, the main character towards verse 35.

From Daniel 11:35 onwards we have NO matching historical fulfilment, despite attempts by preterists (historicists) to match these predictions with history. It is no co-incidence that verse 35 starts referring to the time of the end.

Then we have some verses referring to this one character, whose death is directly related to the timing of the resurrection:

11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

It is clear that the main character of Daniel 11:35-45 is someone with wide international influence, who prospers in everything he does, and magnifies himself . He is based in Israel and is taken by surprise by attacks from the north and the east. He can be compared to the earlier "vile person".He dies just before the resurrection, making him definitely an end-times character. Surely this is the end-times antichrist!

11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

iconoclast2012
Nov 18th 2009, 03:49 PM
....Wassup' brethren...Let's have another look at Ezekiels "Magog" lineup...shall we...? I seem to detect something here...Like a dual, two pronged alliance...The northern lineup consists of "Meshech & Tubal,Gomer and all his "bands" (sounds like they're heavy metal) :D The house of Togarmah of the north quarters,and all his bands(...stans ?) and many people with thee. These nations are seperated geographyaclly from the "southern Magog alliance" here in... Ezekiel 38:5 "Persia,Ethiopia,and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet. Is there any significance to this...? We see a northern & southern Magog contingency here...don't we...? Now guess where I'm goin' w/this ?...I'm gonna bring some meat to the table....

iconoclast2012
Nov 18th 2009, 04:50 PM
...Now what I'm gonna do is take Ezekiels magogsters, both the southern & northern alliance, and I'm gonna slide Magog right over here >>> right along side >>> Let's put them right smack down in the middle of Daniel 11:40...And at the time of the end shall the king of the south (Persia,Ethiopia,and Libya) push at him : and the king of the north(Meshach,Tubal,Gomer & all his bands) shall come against him like a whirlwind,with chariots,and with horsemen,and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries,and shall overflow and pass over. Well now....OH MY....! I realise this may put a teenie, wennie crimp in a great deal of eschatology out there...But let's keep diggin'....shall we...?

DurbanDude
Nov 19th 2009, 06:49 AM
...Now what I'm gonna do is take Ezekiels magogsters, both the southern & northern alliance, and I'm gonna slide Magog right over here >>> right along side >>> Let's put them right smack down in the middle of Daniel 11:40...And at the time of the end shall the king of the south (Persia,Ethiopia,and Libya) push at him : and the king of the north(Meshach,Tubal,Gomer & all his bands) shall come against him like a whirlwind,with chariots,and with horsemen,and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries,and shall overflow and pass over. Well now....OH MY....! I realise this may put a teenie, wennie crimp in a great deal of eschatology out there...But let's keep diggin'....shall we...?

Good stuff Icon! I never knew about the Magog nations all being associated with the south. This also explains that other war of Rev 20 better when the four quarters of the earth are mentioned, Gog being associated with the north, Magog the south, and the other two quarters of the earth unnamed and unknown.

So the south and the Gog allies (north and east) all attack the antichrist.

That is why I stick to my guns about the antichrist. He is western, allied to Rome, this concept has biblical support. I speculate that the only reason the world gives him power is religious and financial manipulation,and that is why those countries that do not form his base (his western base) will turn on him at the end. They see through his manipulation and turn on the antichrist and Rome, and Israel.

Aservantonthemount
Nov 25th 2009, 07:28 PM
I think that there is something that needs to be highlighted here. Magog is not defined by a central location, but by means of an alliance. Remember, the alliance of the Beast in Revelation 13 is also defined in Daniel 7. If this is the case, and I believe that it is, then Magog is not a central geographical area, but the name of a league of nations. This would mean that Gog, the "chief prince of Magog" is the leader of this alliance. I still believe that since the first Gog is hurled into the Lake in Revelation 19 and yet Gog makes a reappearance after the end of Satan's imprisonment, that Gog is more than the leader of the Magog alliance, but actually the spirit of the alliance itself, much like Michael is written to be the spirit of Israel. We know that these spirits are not symbolic representative of their perspective countries, but actually angels who are symbols of the countries they are supposed to represent. Michale is the Angel of Israel, while Gog is the angel of Magog.

This is why I hold on to the notion that Gog is neither a man nor a mortal. It is my conclusion that Gog is the angel of Magog, and thus represents the leader of that nation, whether it be the Beast who is barbequed when the Lord returns, or the instrument of the Satan's final rebellion that occurs a millennia later.

Bethshaya
Nov 25th 2009, 10:45 PM
The Golder Rule of Interpretation:
“When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.” Dr. D.L. Cooper

You need to go back to Genesis to find out that these are actually areas that were given to the decendents of Noah. They were given specific areas to populate after the flood. (See the Table of NATIONS in Genesis 10). http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%2010-10&version=NIV

Therefore, those are the same places that those living at the time that scripture was written would have understood as geographic locations.

The princes of these areas would be the leaders at the time of the end. Gog is the formal name of the one leader of Magog. Magog was an actual person, the son of Japeth, the grandson of Noah and was assigned an area to populate in Gen 10. This is a geographic place near Turkey today. Every one of the nations listed are nations that today are muslim nations. Shems decendents are what today we would call Semetic-Eurpoean, Japeth's Persian-Asian and Ham's Africian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Noah

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/images/RTGham1.jpg

Aservantonthemount
Nov 27th 2009, 10:15 AM
what about Ezekiel 38:3-6, which broadens Magog to include nations in Africa? Does that not change things?

DurbanDude
Nov 27th 2009, 10:33 AM
what about Ezekiel 38:3-6, which broadens Magog to include nations in Africa? Does that not change things?

I misunderstood Icon's post, but reading Ezekiel carefully, I would say that those African countries are just allies of Magog, not part of Magog itself. Magog is those people in the Turkey/southern Russia area, and Gog is the chief prince (angelic being) over that northern region, but the word "Gog" can therefore also represent the Magog region.