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Lyndie
Nov 18th 2008, 04:19 PM
This is an off shoot of another thread. Someone in that thread stated that basically we do not have a right to tell the lost that they are sinners. It was said that they do not know they are sinners. While I agree that may be possible with some, I know for me that when I got saved, I KNEW I was living wrong, and that I needed God in my life. Most people have a concept of God, but believe if they are 'good' they will go to heaven.

In my opinion, you can't preach the Gospel and not talk about sin. If we do, we are delivering the 'feel good cause God loves you' gospel which so many have spoken out about, and rightly so. Jesus spoke about sin, but it was not an in your face, mean sort of way. Many cite "The Way of the Master" show, to which I do not subscribe for various reason. One of which being walking up to starngers and outright telling them they are sinners because they may have lied, cheated, etc. I believe there has to be a balanced way of delivering the Gospel, in wheich people can come to understand that because God loves us, God sent His Son to die on the cross for us because we are sinners. What do you think?

Vhayes
Nov 18th 2008, 04:23 PM
I think most people know they are sinners - even the ones who think they live a "good" life are aware they have done things wrong in the past. What they need is hope - the Good News of the gospel.

But that's just me.
V

MercyChild
Nov 18th 2008, 04:43 PM
I think most people know they are sinners - even the ones who think they live a "good" life are aware they have done things wrong in the past. What they need is hope - the Good News of the gospel.

But that's just me.
V

:agree: I was just recently saved, and I can tell from experience, that I really knew that I was a sinner. No one had to inform me, I just new, and that is why I started seeking God.

ServantofTruth
Nov 18th 2008, 05:40 PM
Despite my tracts/ christian leaflets, looking quick nice on the front and being a little casual on the inside too - by the time you get to the back page the message is clear - We are All sinners, who need Jesus Christ.

So i don't think, with most people our first words should be 'Hello, do you realise you're a sinner.' But you can't progress far before it has to be mentioned. Love SofTy.

tt1106
Nov 18th 2008, 06:28 PM
Yes, by the time you start talking about the Gospel, they must hear about the seperation from God and Sin. In the end the weight of sin is what drives us to our knees. In our Brokenness, the miracle of Grace is what raises us from the dead.
I don't see how you can have one without the other.

cross crusader
Nov 18th 2008, 07:16 PM
in my experience preaching on the streets with Vertical Reality when we are talking about Christ to people, Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, the Holy Spirit usually convicts them of their sins, i can never really recall a time when we had to say "Hey stop sinning you are going to Hell." Unless it was someone we knew and it was a divine appointment... For instance, there is this young man just turned 18, who was raised in church and saved once before, who had now fallen away and was practicing witchcraft... that was the only instance i can remember of having to tell someone stop sinning you big dummy.... we didnt say it like that, but that was the jist... Look if you are preaching or talking, God will always confirm His word, and in most cases the hellfire and brimstone message is not needed... although by the time you are done, they will know they are a sinner and you will have told them that, but they wont realize that is what you are telling them. Does this make sense?

JSobo
Nov 19th 2008, 06:01 AM
Many cite "The Way of the Master" show, to which I do not subscribe for various reason. One of which being walking up to starngers and outright telling them they are sinners because they may have lied, cheated, etc.

They don't just walk up to strangers and tell them they are sinners.
After asking them questions the people usually realize they are sinners, if not they are told by their own admission they are sinners.

I mean this lovingly, in a response it is hard to tell the tone - If I am a lier, I am a sinner not maybe a sinner. One sin makes a person a sinner.

Most everyone thinks they are a good person and deserve to go to heaven:
Proverbs 20:6 Most men will proclaim each his own goodness, But who can find a faithful man?

This world says it is o.k. and normal to have sex out of marriage, look at porn, lie, covet, worship money..................Those are lies from the pits of hell. We may have realized we were sinners before being saved but if being truthful, did we call them sins or just being bad?

I have met teenagers that did not know who JESUS CHRIST is, that in itself will not send a person to hell but their sins will. Without knowing what sin is why would someone call out to the LORD?

Please understand, I am not saying that using the Law and Grace, the method that Way of the Master uses is the only way to witness but it is a legitimate way to share the Gospel. It is not like hell fire preaching, just telling people they are going to hell without telling them why.

If someone does not realize they have a disease they will never seek the cure.

Forth the March
Nov 23rd 2008, 07:31 AM
Poeple need to understand what they are doing in order to get saved in the first place.

You cannot get saved by thinking you're perfect and somehow you'll magically get to God. You must first realize you are a sinner so you may repent.

Lamplighter
Nov 24th 2008, 01:43 AM
I think most people know they are sinners - even the ones who think they live a "good" life are aware they have done things wrong in the past. What they need is hope - the Good News of the gospel.

But that's just me.
V

Not the unsaved people I know.

My mom's oldest brother is lost, and if you tell him he is a sinner, he thinks you are nuts. As far as he is concerned, since he works for his family, and is a good guy, he thinks he is ok with God.

Same with a few of my old High School buddies.

Tell a stranger on the street they are a sinner, and see what kind of a response you get.

It takes the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to bring a person to repentance.

IamBill
Nov 24th 2008, 03:48 AM
Yeah, the NT is full of examples of how Jesus walked the streets picking out individuals to tell them they are sinners and they are going to burn in Hell. :rolleyes:

Lamplighter
Nov 24th 2008, 04:25 AM
Yeah, the NT is full of examples of how Jesus walked the streets picking out individuals to tell them they are sinners and they are going to burn in Hell. :rolleyes:

He told the Pharisees on the street they were evil vipers and liars.

ServantofTruth
Nov 24th 2008, 09:12 AM
In a world and church of limited resources, i have always wondered about the play group my children all went to. The ladies of the church, some very elderly, for 16 years that i know of (and probably years before that) have run a play group for all mothers. Only a few are from their church or other churches.

There was even a special mission week (God bless the local churches 1 week!!) when the mission team were at the play group.

My problem is - where's the gospel message? The answer is their too afraid to mention Jesus, except a little story at christmas - because none of the mothers would come the next week! My wife should know being a non believer and knowing all the mothers over the years.

To me this is not just a non witness - but rather a bad witness. Non christians are dictating the agenda and they know it! A bit like Christian Answer sometimes. How many of us in unequally yoked marriages or in the work place, say nothing for an easier life?

That play group could provide a weekly safe haven for all christian parents with babies and toddlers - to encourage and grow in the Word of God. Instead those christian parents are encouraged to keep quiet and fit in with how non believers want to do it. Very sad.

Witness is so important. So are God given resources. If the gospel/ bible is not in something - what value does it have? We are just taking what God has given us and throwing it away. SofTy.

IamBill
Nov 24th 2008, 08:02 PM
Yeah, the NT is full of examples of how Jesus walked the streets picking out individuals to tell them they are sinners and they are going to burn in Hell. :rolleyes:


He told the Pharisees on the street they were evil vipers and liars.

Yes, He told the Pharisees

JSobo
Nov 24th 2008, 10:10 PM
Yeah, the NT is full of examples of how Jesus walked the streets picking out individuals to tell them they are sinners and they are going to burn in Hell. :rolleyes:


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. NKJV

The Gospel, which according to John 1:1 is GOD tells us in no uncertain terms that Liars, Blasphemers, murderers, adulterers (in deed and thought for murder and adultery), idolaters........are sinners and are going to hell without JESUS CHRIST as the propitiation of their sins.
Whether we like it or not that is what the WORD says, that is what JESUS says - after all HE is GOD.

The HOLY SPIRIT saves, not us but the simple truth is most un-saved people do not think they are sinners and in need of a Savior. How do you tell someone they need the Savior if they have no idea what they are being saved from?

IamBill
Nov 24th 2008, 11:48 PM
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. NKJV

The Gospel, which according to John 1:1 is GOD tells us in no uncertain terms that Liars, Blasphemers, murderers, adulterers (in deed and thought for murder and adultery), idolaters........are sinners and are going to hell without JESUS CHRIST as the propitiation of their sins.
Whether we like it or not that is what the WORD says, that is what JESUS says - after all HE is GOD.

The HOLY SPIRIT saves, not us but the simple truth is most un-saved people do not think they are sinners and in need of a Savior. How do you tell someone they need the Savior if they have no idea what they are being saved from?

:)
NOoo, John 1:1 tells us that the Word Is Jesus and that Jesus IS God

but this is actually irreverent to my statement ..No?

And don't confuse my statement as meaning or implying that we should NOT witness.

JSobo
Nov 25th 2008, 01:42 AM
Yeah, the NT is full of examples of how Jesus walked the streets picking out individuals to tell them they are sinners and they are going to burn in Hell. :rolleyes:

O.K., so how do you witness someone without telling them why they need the Savior?


:)
NOoo, John 1:1 tells us that the Word Is Jesus and that Jesus IS God

but this is actually irreverent to my statement ..No?

And don't confuse my statement as meaning or implying that we should NOT witness.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Your right the Word is JESUS and the Word tells us that we are all sinners.

IamBill
Nov 25th 2008, 04:42 AM
[/I]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Your right the Word is JESUS and the Word tells us that we are all sinners.

:lol: Ok, I see what your saying, and Yes Jesus does tell us that, I thought you said- J 1:1 says that.
(actually, it is J 1:14 that tells us Jesus is the Word)


O.K., so how do you witness someone without telling them why they need the Savior?

First, I didn't suggest not telling them why they need Christ.

second, nearly everyone is at a different place in their lives, so, each individual reacts in a different way. Given the diversity of answers your question asks *me*, I will try to sum it up.


Express how My "previous ways" and choices relate "with them", that I am no different, none of us are, maybe ask what they think of Life after death, God, Jesus, etc.
In other words - open the channels to friendly conversation. it usually does not take long to know if someone is even interested in the subject.
telling them who I was, while they See the person I've become speaks for itself.
Expressing the life *I* led speaks for itself (Note: I have not mentioned anyone but myself as a sinner, Nor have I used the word)
Now, I either have an open ear, or a closed one. and even if it is the latter, I have presented Love, patients, understanding and friendship. (and the possibility of further deep conversation)

Mind you, you will not find me at a church or the busy street, or the mall etc. I go where I am led, when I am led to. It is God plan not mine.

sound all that difficult ?

JSobo
Nov 25th 2008, 07:33 PM
My response to your first post:

Originally Posted by IamBill http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1880294#post1880294)
Yeah, the NT is full of examples of how Jesus walked the streets picking out individuals to tell them they are sinners and they are going to burn in Hell. :rolleyes:


Was more directed to the sarcasm.
Never said to walk up to someone and just say you are a sinner and you are going to hell.
Never said to just walk up to someone and just start witnessing either.

In my original post for this thread I did say that the folks at Way of the Master ask questions to get the person to admit they are sinners and I did not point it out but those clips on the TV show are cut for time, they do start the conversation in the natural and switch to the spiritual.

Also my original post in this thread was in defense to using the Law and Grace while witnessing. At some point in the conversation it (sin) should be called what it is if we truly care about that persons salvation. Believe it or not I care, I do not want to see anyone go to hell.

I know who I was, and tell people I am a sinner - just like they are. In fact the truth is I've probably done more bad things than most but it doesn't quite put it into prospective just calling it bad things or mistakes - I've sinned against GOD, the Creator of the the Universe and while HE is Loving HE is also full of Wrath to those who sin against HIM, but HE has given us a way out and that is the whole point. What I'm trying to say is that I didn't care that I did bad things, when I thought of them only as that, however when it came to light that I had sinned against GOD that brought it into prospective.

There is no doubt that it is the HOLY SPIRIT'S job to convict a person and led them to the Cross, but we are called to go out into the world and plant seeds, to share the Gospel - to tell people about CHRIST and the gift of Salvation.

IamBill
Nov 26th 2008, 12:20 AM
My response to your first post:

Originally Posted by IamBill http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1880294#post1880294)
Yeah, the NT is full of examples of how Jesus walked the streets picking out individuals to tell them they are sinners and they are going to burn in Hell. :rolleyes:


Was more directed to the sarcasm.
Never said to walk up to someone and just say you are a sinner and you are going to hell.
Never said to just walk up to someone and just start witnessing either.

In my original post for this thread I did say that the folks at Way of the Master ask questions to get the person to admit they are sinners and I did not point it out but those clips on the TV show are cut for time, they do start the conversation in the natural and switch to the spiritual.

Also my original post in this thread was in defense to using the Law and Grace while witnessing. At some point in the conversation it (sin) should be called what it is if we truly care about that persons salvation. Believe it or not I care, I do not want to see anyone go to hell.

I know who I was, and tell people I am a sinner - just like they are. In fact the truth is I've probably done more bad things than most but it doesn't quite put it into prospective just calling it bad things or mistakes - I've sinned against GOD, the Creator of the the Universe and while HE is Loving HE is also full of Wrath to those who sin against HIM, but HE has given us a way out and that is the whole point. What I'm trying to say is that I didn't care that I did bad things, when I thought of them only as that, however when it came to light that I had sinned against GOD that brought it into prospective.

There is no doubt that it is the HOLY SPIRIT'S job to convict a person and led them to the Cross, but we are called to go out into the world and plant seeds, to share the Gospel - to tell people about CHRIST and the gift of Salvation.

:) JSobo, I never was addressing you directly in the first place, nor do I have a clue of what TV show or clips you are talking about.

I have answered the question you asked me in blanket form. is it satisfactory ? ...does it sound all that difficult ?



"Way of the Master" - I have never heard of.
Tell me though please if you would, would they be the ones who print million dollar bills with these .."questions" listed on the Back side. as in "the million dollar question ?


Edit:
I think it only fair that I add the "why I ask" before you reply.

Last summer, big Family/Friends reunion, a wonderful Sun. afternoon at the county park. Most everyone gathered around and near the pavilion, all the little ones (about a dozen 5 to 10 yr olds) playing in the fenced playground about a 100 feet away.
A few people had noted the white Van parking, and the young couple exiting and walking with a puppy toward the playground, stopping at the gate, pointing, chatting, most the kids(mainly girls) went over to them, but then within minutes the couple turned and headed back to the Van carrying the puppy and left. As they pulled away, the Kids then all started toward us, then they were running, then crying, some near hysteria as the parents ran to meet them. - and nearly inconsolable for hours.
"we are going to Burn Forever with the devil"

A few people had went after the Van but it was long gone.

At least a few of the Kids managed to hold on to that 'Million dollar bill' they were handed, it ought to cover the trauma they inflicted on the little children.

JSobo
Nov 29th 2008, 06:15 AM
:) JSobo, I never was addressing you directly in the first place, nor do I have a clue of what TV show or clips you are talking about.

I have answered the question you asked me in blanket form. is it satisfactory ? ...does it sound all that difficult ?



"Way of the Master" - I have never heard of.
Tell me though please if you would, would they be the ones who print million dollar bills with these .."questions" listed on the Back side. as in "the million dollar question ?


Edit:
I think it only fair that I add the "why I ask" before you reply.

Last summer, big Family/Friends reunion, a wonderful Sun. afternoon at the county park. Most everyone gathered around and near the pavilion, all the little ones (about a dozen 5 to 10 yr olds) playing in the fenced playground about a 100 feet away.
A few people had noted the white Van parking, and the young couple exiting and walking with a puppy toward the playground, stopping at the gate, pointing, chatting, most the kids(mainly girls) went over to them, but then within minutes the couple turned and headed back to the Van carrying the puppy and left. As they pulled away, the Kids then all started toward us, then they were running, then crying, some near hysteria as the parents ran to meet them. - and nearly inconsolable for hours.
"we are going to Burn Forever with the devil"

A few people had went after the Van but it was long gone.

At least a few of the Kids managed to hold on to that 'Million dollar bill' they were handed, it ought to cover the trauma they inflicted on the little children.

No it doesn't sound difficult to become friends with people and if the subject of JESUS happens to come up share with them. Its a funny thing though, I have people in my life I'd like to share with and haven't - they know I'm a Christian and have never asked me about the Light that shines within me.

On the next subject(s):
There are many ministries that put out million dollar bill tracts but it probably was a Living Waters tract. I am not a huge fan of those mdb's only because the message is so short and maybe too direct some, however the message is Biblical. Way of the Master does not put out tracts, but it from the same people, the tracts do not mention WOTM but Living Waters.

I do not advocate witnessing to little children. That is the job of the parents and the Sunday school they attend. I'm surprised the kids didn't tell the van people they have JESUS and are not going to hell, unless they have never been exposed to the Gospel.
We can not know when the age of accountability is for a child, that is one of the many things that only GOD knows. However once a person whether child or adult is held accountable for their sins, we both know without CHRIST what their fate will be.

I wouldn't judge a ministry by one bad experience or by someone that follows that ministry but has bad judgment. Atheists and non-believers do that by believing that all Christians blow up abortion clinics or are hypocrites because of the actions of a very small percentage of people that profess to be Christians.