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Yukerboy
Nov 19th 2008, 03:06 AM
Wikipedia definition in black, Scriptures in purple.

Jesus Christ's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus) substitutionary atonement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement) (after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever; we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.) on the cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross) is limited in scope to those who are predestined (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination) unto salvation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation) (to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood; Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ; the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.) and its primary benefits are not given to all of humanity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humankind) but rather just believers (He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already; He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.)

3 for 3.

Diolectic
Nov 19th 2008, 03:36 AM
Wikipedia definition in black, Scriptures in purple.

Jesus Christ's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus)substitutionary atonement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement) (after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever; we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.) on the cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross) is limited in scope to those who are predestined (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination) unto salvation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation) (to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood; Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ; the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.) and its primary benefits are not given to all of humanity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humankind) but rather just believers (He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already; He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.)

3 for 3.


Limited Atonement
Limited Atonement does not claim that the power of the atonement is limited, in that any sin is so great that it can not be covered by Christ's sacrifice; however it does claim that it does not extend to all, only to those who God chooses to elect.

Limited Atonement is an extension of the doctrine of Unconditional election, but it has more of an emphasis on the atonement of the elect or is mainly limited with the doctrine of the nature of the atonement, what it does and how it is applied.

The doctrine of this theory states that the atonement of Christ literally pays the penalty of the sins that men are liable for, in other words Christ receives the wrath of God for specific sins and that cancels the judgment they had built up. This is because it would be unjust for God to take the place in judgment for those specific sins and continues to condemn them for those sins; therefore, God must necessarily save all the specific people, whose specific sins were specifically forgiven.

Limited Atonement is only effectual after one believes which makes the atonement of Christ a potential work instead of an active work, exclusive and not inclusive, Ones who hold to this doctrine deny the power of Christ' making peace between God and all mankind, while they make atonement to be the salvation of only those who are elected.

Atonement is the translated word kaw-far' from Hebrew to English which means “to cover” of the Jewish Fast of Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). It incorporates the words reconciliation, propitiation (satisfaction) and forgiveness. The work of Christ on His cross makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.

This doctrine of Limited Atonement misinterprets the word atonement to be the salvation of man, when, in actuality, the true meaning is that it is only the taking away of sin, it is the forgiveness if sin, thus making peace between God and man (Col 1:20). Christ's work makes redemption possible for all but guaranteed for only those who have a relationship with Christ.
They claim that the atonement saves man instead of the relationship with Christ which is the actual salvation. The actual salvation is eternal life (John 17:3).

RogerW
Nov 20th 2008, 03:29 AM
Wikipedia definition in black, Scriptures in purple.

Jesus Christ's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus)substitutionary atonement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement) (after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever; we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.) on the cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross) is limited in scope to those who are predestined (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination) unto salvation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation) (to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood; Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ; the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.) and its primary benefits are not given to all of humanity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humankind) but rather just believers (He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already; He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.)

3 for 3.

Greetings, Yuke,

Since Scripture clearly tells us not all men will be saved, you must either believe atonement is limited or believe in universalism.

Many Blessings,
RW

Yukerboy
Nov 21st 2008, 07:22 AM
Colossians 1:20 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Colassians 1:22 later reads that "now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation"

So this reconciliation is applied only to those who are presented holy in His sight and not everyone. Thus, limited atonement rather than universalism.


actual salvation is eternal life

And one cannot be had without the other and one must come with the other. You may not have your sins atoned for if you do not have salvation, nor may you have salvation without having your sins atoned for.

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified

you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

John146
Nov 21st 2008, 04:13 PM
Greetings, Yuke,

Since Scripture clearly tells us not all men will be saved, you must either believe atonement is limited or believe in universalism.

Many Blessings,
RWYou left out one other option. Neither limited atonement nor universalism are true if the term limited atonement means that Christ did not die for all people and if the term universalism is understood to mean all will be saved. The third and correct option is that Christ did indeed die for the sins of everyone in the world but God requires everyone in the world to repent and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ in order to be saved and to receive atonement for their sins and eternal life.

Limited atonement contradicts these scripture passages:

1 Tim 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Ezekiel 18
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Matthew 22
1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Luke 5
31And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.(See Rom 3:23. All people are sinners, therefore He came to call all people to repentance)

IBWatching
Nov 21st 2008, 05:21 PM
...Limited Atonement is an extension of the doctrine of Unconditional election...

It is an extension of human construct. There is no Scripture which supports any such notion. The Reconciliation which Jesus Accomplished at the Cross was full and complete. Impossible without full atonement...for everyone.

Diolectic
Nov 21st 2008, 05:27 PM
...Limited Atonement is an extension of the doctrine of Unconditional election...It is an extension of human construct. There is no Scripture which supports any such notion. The Reconciliation which Jesus Accomplished at the Cross was full and complete. Impossible without full atonement...for everyone.Your preaching to the quire.
I only gave a cleare description of that false doctrine, I wasn't agreeing to it.

Yukerboy
Nov 21st 2008, 10:59 PM
I think we can agree that all Scripture must be true.

Therefore, when Matthew wrote "he will save his people from their sins" then you must either define "his people" as everyone or not everyone. There is no in between. So, either he saves everyone from their sins, or not everyone from their sins.

Just as "give his life as a ransom for many." must mean either all, or many. Christ says many, but did He mean what He said? If He died for all, then He meant to say all, but made a mistake.....or Christ meant what He said.

The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. Who are the sheep? "you do not believe because you are not my sheep." Notice here, it does not say you are not my sheep because you do not believe....

mikebr
Nov 22nd 2008, 04:31 PM
Greetings, Yuke,

Since Scripture clearly tells us not all men will be saved, you must either believe atonement is limited or believe in universalism.

Many Blessings,
RW

1st Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
:hmm:

mikebr
Nov 22nd 2008, 04:43 PM
One of you is saying that God can save everyone He just don't want to. The other is saying that He wants to save everyone He just can't.

Which is it He won't or He can't?

Diolectic
Nov 22nd 2008, 04:57 PM
One of you is saying that God can save everyone He just don't want to. The other is saying that He wants to save everyone He just can't.

Which is it He won't or He can't?God wants, but can't.
He wouldn't be good if He just didn't want to, choosing those He will arbitrarily.

Diolectic
Nov 22nd 2008, 05:00 PM
Greetings, Yuke,

Since Scripture clearly tells us not all men will be saved, you must either believe atonement is limited or believe in universalism.

Many Blessings,
RWYour problem is thinking that the atonement saves,
it doesn't.
The relationship to the Father through Christ is what saves.
The atoment just makes the relationship posible.

Yukerboy
Nov 22nd 2008, 05:06 PM
God wants all to be saved, but He will not save them all. Not because He cannot, for my God is omnipotent, but because He has chosen who He would save, so that His purpose will stand.

If grace and mercy is given to all, then grace and mercy are no longer grace and mercy.

IBWatching
Nov 22nd 2008, 05:12 PM
Your preaching to the quire.
I only gave a cleare description of that false doctrine, I wasn't agreeing to it.

I was agreeing with you. Just expanding on your point.

IBWatching
Nov 22nd 2008, 05:18 PM
God wants all to be saved, but He will not save them all. Not because He cannot, for my God is omnipotent, but because He has chosen who He would save, so that His purpose will stand...

The principal error in your thought here is that God's Attributes can never work against His Will, only with that Will. His Will is that all be Saved. You seem to be saying that God's Sovreignty overcomes His Love and Desire that all be Saved. You are making God at war with Himself.

I prefer to see Him as a Loving God Who, once He has started His Work of Regeneration, doesn't stop it...for any reason.

mikebr
Nov 22nd 2008, 05:26 PM
God wants, but can't.
He wouldn't be good if He just didn't want to, choosing those He will arbitrarily.

So Adam's will trumps God's will? God doesn't get what He wants?

mikebr
Nov 22nd 2008, 05:38 PM
God wants all to be saved, but He will not save them all. Not because He cannot, for my God is omnipotent, but because He has chosen who He would save, so that His purpose will stand.

If grace and mercy is given to all, then grace and mercy are no longer grace and mercy.

How did you come across the understanding of His purpose? Please share it with us?

He wants to and He can but He won't?
If a person you loved was drowning and you wanted to save him and could save him but didn't save him, what would that say about you?

RogerW
Nov 22nd 2008, 05:44 PM
1st Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
:hmm:


One of you is saying that God can save everyone He just don't want to. The other is saying that He wants to save everyone He just can't.

Which is it He won't or He can't?

Greetings Mike,

You either take the side that God is Sovereign, or that man is sovereign. To say God can save everyone is not in question, we all know that if God wants everyone saved, then everyone would be saved. But since the lake of fire was created for the devil and his messengers; i.e. all who are under his power, clearly God never intended to save every man (see Rev 20:15). Unless of course you take the stance that the fire is for purging and not everlasting condemnation, which of course would make you a universalist; i.e. every man will eventually be saved. This doctrine cannot be harmonized with Scripture. I will not further comment on the doctrine of universalism because I don't want to derail the thread, nor do I wish to go against community rules.

There are two ways to perceive God. You can see Him from a negative perspective as do those who believe in free will. This perspective says that God would not be fair, or loving unless He gives every man a chance to be saved. They will argue that if man does not have free will to choose to accept or reject a perceived mere offer of salvation, then God is horrible because He is a respecter of persons, and chooses only some men unto eternal life. This view of God comes from being man-centered rather than God centered. It says that God does not want robots, so man must have a free will. Therefore salvation, although they will argue vehemently is of grace, in reality no man can be saved unless they put their so-called faith in God. Whether they want to admit it or not this makes salvation dependent upon God's grace plus man's work of faith.

Or, you can see Him from a positive perspective. This perspective says that God is fair in choosing to save only some people, and that if God does not choose some men then no man can be saved. All of salvation from start to finish hinges on the grace of God alone. God does all the work in salvation, and man is the recipient of His grace alone. This view sees man as he truly is, fallen in Adam and without ability to turn to Christ that he might have life unless drawn by the Father and saved through the power of the Word and the Spirit. All of the focus is on what God has done for His people, instead of what man can do for God through some imagined free will. Salvation is of the Lord alone!

So how do we make sense of passages like 1Ti 4:10?

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Certainly it cannot mean that God will save all men, for if that were the case it makes no sense that he adds "specially of those that believe." Neither would this phrase make any sense if Paul means that Christ bestows salvation on all kinds of people.

So does it mean that Christ wants all men to be saved (see 1Ti 2:3,4), but in the case of some men His will is "frustrated" by obstinate unbelief? The passage does not say, He wants to save, but that He actually saves; He is actually the Savior (in some sense) of all men. Also frustration of the divine will is impossible. Otherwise God would not be God!

Does it mean He is able to save all men; but though all can be saved, only the believers are actually saved? This too, is not what the text says. It says, "He is the Savior of all men."

If we do a little study of the word "Savior" in a passage like this, I believe an explanation is found. There has to be a two-fold application of the word because the phrase "especially of those who believe" indicates this.

In a providential way God gives all men breath, food, blessings and common mercies, but He especially cares for His own! There is a general providence, which attends to all mankind, and a special providence, which relates to the elect of God. (See also Ps 37:23-26; Mt 6:31-34)

Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

The word "Savior" cannot be taken in the strict sense of eternal salvation, but as One Who delivers and protects. For even unbelievers are protected by God. It is in this sense that He is the Savior of all men. His goodness extends to the most wicked. Since God shows mercy and favor to those in unbelief, how much more to those of us who are members of His eternal family?

Many Blessings,
RW

mikebr
Nov 22nd 2008, 06:04 PM
Your interpretation is through a Calvinistic lens. Someone who believes in free will will have a different interpretation of this scripture.



Certainly it cannot mean that God will save all men, for if that were the case it makes no sense that he adds "specially of those that believe." Neither would this phrase make any sense if Paul means that Christ bestows salvation on all kinds of people.
Could not a person say certainly it cannot mean.....................because it says.......................elsewhere.

There is a verse that says: do good to all men, especially to those of the household of faith. (maybe paraphrase) Using your logic I could say "Certainly it cannot mean that we are supposed to do good to all men, for if that were the case it makes no sense the he add 'especially to of those of the house hold of faith'". Neither would this phrase make any sense if I were saying that we should do good to all kinds of people.

mikebr
Nov 22nd 2008, 06:07 PM
In a providential way God gives all men breath, food, blessings and common mercies, but He especially cares for His own! There is a general providence, which attends to all mankind, and a special providence, which relates to the elect of God. (See also Ps 37:23-26; Mt 6:31-34)

What about aborted babies? In what sense is Jesus their savior?

mikebr
Nov 22nd 2008, 06:13 PM
If we do a little study of the word "Savior" in a passage like this, I believe an explanation is found. There has to be a two-fold application of the word because the phrase "especially of those who believe" indicates this.

soter-"A savior, deliverer, preserver.


Its the only word that I can find that is translated savior.

RogerW
Nov 22nd 2008, 06:58 PM
Your interpretation is through a Calvinistic lens. Someone who believes in free will will have a different interpretation of this scripture.

Greetings Mike,

Typically this type of statement is subtly saying, "I believe you are teaching a doctrine from man and not from the Word of God." So where do you find I have not presented my argument from the Word of God? Of course my view will not harmonize with the doctrine of free will, because the BIBLE, not Calvin, does not harmonize with the doctrine of free will.



Could not a person say certainly it cannot mean.....................because it says.......................elsewhere.

Certainly one can say anything they want, and often present a pretty good case for saying it from the Bible. The question we must ask is, "does my opinion harmonize with all of Scripture, or am I forcing contradiction upon the Word of God?"



There is a verse that says: do good to all men, especially to those of the household of faith. (maybe paraphrase) Using your logic I could say "Certainly it cannot mean that we are supposed to do good to all men, for if that were the case it makes no sense the he add 'especially to of those of the house hold of faith'". Neither would this phrase make any sense if I were saying that we should do good to all kinds of people.

I believe the verse you are referring to comes from Ga 6.

Ga 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

How can I reconcile this verse so that it does not contradict the passage from 1Ti 4:10? Would you not agree that the verse in 1Ti 4 is speaking of the work of God, and the passage from Ga 6 is speaking of the works of believers? Is not Paul consistantly urging believers to persist in doing good, and not growing weary or giving up?

Ga 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Paul contrasts the negative "do not grow weary", with the positive "let us do good." Perseverance in doing good is the result of grace and evidence of growing faith. This is a common teaching of Paul (see Ga 3:3; 5:7, 18, 25; 6:2).

If what we do and give is according to the will of God, out of a principle of love to Him, for His glory, and in the name of the Lord, we need not grow weary nor become discouraged. In God's own time, either in this world or the world to come, we will see the fruit of our labors of love. We must simply wait on the Lord. As we have opportunity and the ability, and as occasion permits, let us do good to all people (strangers, neighbors, believers and unbelievers), but especially let us care for, encourage and assist those who are believers with us in Christ.

There is perfect harmony of Scripture. Just as Christ is the Savior of all men generally and the Savior of His elect specifically, so too are we to do good unto all men generally, but especially to those who are of the faith.

Many Blessings,
RW

Diolectic
Nov 22nd 2008, 06:59 PM
God wants, but can't.
He wouldn't be good if He just didn't want to, choosing those He will arbitrarily.So Adam's will trumps God's will? God doesn't get what He wants?If Adam's will does not "trump God's will", you then have God wanting Adam to sin.

It is obvious that Adam's will trumped God's.
God gave the command of HIS will, "Don't eat of that Tree".
Adam's will trumped it by disobeying.

However, "trump" is not a very good word to use.
A better word would be that Adam's will was CONTRARY of God's.

RogerW
Nov 22nd 2008, 07:02 PM
What about aborted babies? In what sense is Jesus their savior?

Well Mike, cannot aborted babies and even mentally impaired be included among the elect of God? If they are among the predestined elect with their names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, cannot they too, like all of His elect be eternally saved? For salvation is of the Lord! Salvation is not dependent upon man, but by His grace.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 22nd 2008, 07:12 PM
soter-"A savior, deliverer, preserver.

Its the only word that I can find that is translated savior.

The noun soter comes from sozo - from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

If the Lord does not providentially provide, care for and orchastrate events in His creation, then fallen mankind would have long ago destroyed the whole world. In this manner, or this way He is the "Savior" of all men, or all mankind.

Many Blessings,
RW

mikebr
Nov 22nd 2008, 07:13 PM
Greetings Mike,

Typically this type of statement is subtly saying, "I believe you are teaching a doctrine from man and not from the Word of God." So where do you find I have not presented my argument from the Word of God? Of course my view will not harmonize with the doctrine of free will, because the BIBLE, not Calvin, does not harmonize with the doctrine of free will.



Certainly one can say anything they want, and often present a pretty good case for saying it from the Bible. The question we must ask is, "does my opinion harmonize with all of Scripture, or am I forcing contradiction upon the Word of God?"



I believe the verse you are referring to comes from Ga 6.

Ga 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

How can I reconcile this verse so that it does not contradict the passage from 1Ti 4:10? Would you not agree that the verse in 1Ti 4 is speaking of the work of God, and the passage from Ga 6 is speaking of the works of believers? Is not Paul consistantly urging believers to persist in doing good, and not growing weary or giving up?

Ga 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Paul contrasts the negative "do not grow weary", with the positive "let us do good." Perseverance in doing good is the result of grace and evidence of growing faith. This is a common teaching of Paul (see Ga 3:3; 5:7, 18, 25; 6:2).

If what we do and give is according to the will of God, out of a principle of love to Him, for His glory, and in the name of the Lord, we need not grow weary nor become discouraged. In God's own time, either in this world or the world to come, we will see the fruit of our labors of love. We must simply wait on the Lord. As we have opportunity and the ability, and as occasion permits, let us do good to all people (strangers, neighbors, believers and unbelievers), but especially let us care for, encourage and assist those who are believers with us in Christ.

There is perfect harmony of Scripture. Just as Christ is the Savior of all men generally and the Savior of His elect specifically, so too are we to do good unto all men generally, but especially to those who are of the faith.

Many Blessings,
RW


Maybe I misunderstand free will, but do the two statements highlighted in red above not contradict one another. If a person doesn't have free will how can they persist at anything?

mikebr
Nov 22nd 2008, 07:19 PM
If Adam's will does not "trump God's will", you then have God wanting Adam to sin.

It is obvious that Adam's will trumped God's.
God gave the command of HIS will, "Don't eat of that Tree".
Adam's will trumped it by disobeying.

However, "trump" is not a very good word to use.
A better word would be that Adam's will was CONTRARY of God's.

Do you two not see how you are diametrically opposed your interpretations of scripture are? Yet neither of you would ever admit that you could be wrong.

RogerW
Nov 22nd 2008, 07:52 PM
Maybe I misunderstand free will, but do the two statements highlighted in red above not contradict one another. If a person doesn't have free will how can they persist at anything?

Mike,

Free will as I understand the doctrine believes that fallen man, while in bondage to satan, sin and death has the ability to believe, repent and put their faith in Christ for salvation. This is the so called free will that is unbiblical. Every man has a will, and even free, at least free to the degree that he is able to freely choose that which comes from his nature, or natural desire. If our nature remains in bondage to satan, sin and death then we will always choose against God, and even things we perceive as doing good are works of unrighteousness. Only after we have been set free from this bondage that every man, born in Adam is bound in, are we able to freely choose to turn to Christ for life. It is only when the Son makes us free that we are free indeed.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

How do we reconcile what you perceive as contradiction? Believers are exhorted to continue to do good, because only believers can do good according to the will of God. Because God is working in them to both will and do of His good pleasure (Ph 2:13). So you see Paul is not exhorting believers to do good through their free will or something they cannot do. Unlike the doctrine of free will that wants us to believe that fallen sinners in bondage to satan, sin and death can of their own fallen free will choose to do good. When we are in Christ, our wills are controlled by the Spirit working through us, leading us to do that which is pleasing to God. So even after salvation are our wills truly free, or are they now under the power of the Spirit in us?

Many Blessings,
RW

Yukerboy
Nov 22nd 2008, 08:04 PM
The principal error in your thought here is that God's Attributes can never work against His Will, only with that Will. His Will is that all be Saved. You seem to be saying that God's Sovreignty overcomes His Love and Desire that all be Saved. You are making God at war with Himself.

I prefer to see Him as a Loving God Who, once He has started His Work of Regeneration, doesn't stop it...for any reason.


If my God wills all to be saved, then all will be saved for my God is omnipotent.

If your god wills all to be saved, but man's will is able to overcome your god's will, then your god is not omnipotent.

Cyberseeker
Nov 22nd 2008, 08:04 PM
Greetings, Yuke,

Since Scripture clearly tells us not all men will be saved, you must either believe atonement is limited or believe in universalism.

Many Blessings,
RW

This is a misconception. One does not have to be universalist in order to reject the objectionable doctrine of limited atonement.


You left out one other option. Neither limited atonement nor universalism are true if the term limited atonement means that Christ did not die for all people and if the term universalism is understood to mean all will be saved. The third and correct option is that Christ did indeed die for the sins of everyone in the world but God requires everyone in the world to repent and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ in order to be saved and to receive atonement for their sins and eternal life.

Nice one John146

RogerW
Nov 23rd 2008, 01:45 AM
This is a misconception. One does not have to be universalist in order to reject the objectionable doctrine of limited atonement.

Then please explain how according to the doctrine of free will that God desires that all men be saved, but all men are not saved? Your gonna say like John 146 "The third and correct option is that Christ did indeed die for the sins of everyone in the world but God requires everyone in the world to repent and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ in order to be saved and to receive atonement for their sins and eternal life."

So your god dies for the sins of every man in the world, but He cannot save them unless fallen, spiritually dead men, who are in bondage to satan, sin and death put their faith and trust in Christ for salvation? Now you have the problem of showing where this faith and trust we must put in Christ for salvation comes from. John 146 likes to add "trust" even though Scripture simply says, "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." He has to add "trust" even though Scripture does not, because he realizes that even the devils believe and tremble.

The so called "faith" and "trust" fallen man possesses is exactly like that of the devils. This natural or faith coming from the flesh cannot save. The only faith that saves is the faith we receive as God's gift of grace.

How are we saved? Is it by our earthly, natural faith...no! We are saved by grace.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

How are we saved by grace? Through faith that is not of ourselves, but the gift of God lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 146 will go round and round trying his darndest to prove we put our faith in Christ for salvation. But the Scripture clearly tells us that faith is by grace. If faith is by grace and it is not our grace, then it cannot be our faith. This verse harmonizes perfectly with the passage in Eph 2:5,8,9.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

When we are dead in trespasses and sins we do not possess saving faith. Saving faith is the gift of God's grace, not of ourselves lest we should boast.

Paul has clearly shown us in in the preceding chapters that justification before God is of faith by grace. Therefore being justified we have peace with God. Having access into grace, implies every blessing.

Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Many Blessings,
RW