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Yukerboy
Nov 19th 2008, 10:17 PM
Wikipedia definition in black, Scriptures in purple.

The saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect) (All that the Father gives me will come to me; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.") and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel("Those whom God predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified"; The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.; God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.; all who were appointed for eternal life believed; The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.; From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.; because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ; it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.) bringing them to a saving faith in Christ.

John146
Nov 19th 2008, 10:34 PM
Irresistible? Hmmm. I don't think so.

Isaiah 66
2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.


Matt 22
1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matt 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Clearly, the Jews resisted God's grace because it shows here what Jesus would have done for them had they not resisted it.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

They resisted the Holy Ghost. Irresistible? Apparently not.

Acts 18
4And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
5And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
6And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

If there is irresistible grace then why would it have taken Paul days to persuade people to believe? Wouldn't they believe right away if it was irresistible? And why would he get upset with them and tell them their blood was on their own heads if it was irresistible? Seems to me that the reason he was upset with them is because they resisted the truth of what he told them.

Also, God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). And yet not all people obey His command and repent. If that isn't resistance, I don't know what is.

Diolectic
Nov 19th 2008, 10:40 PM
Irresistable Grace

The magical "stuff" that God put on only the people he likes, which dominates their will and controls their thoughts to the point of making them want what they didn't want before, and think what they didn't think before.


Irresistable Grace is equivelent to "rape of the soul*" and an obduction of the unwilling.


*RC sproul

Friend of I AM
Nov 19th 2008, 10:44 PM
It's irresistable in the sense that we have no control over it or how God uses it...like God's mercy/judgement/etc. Remember the verse "who can resist his will." So if God has chosen to save someone, no man on earth can change what could has decided to act upon. Thank goodness for my ultimate fate and everyone elses not resting in the hands of men..it rests in the hands of God.

In Christian Love,

Stephen

Diolectic
Nov 19th 2008, 11:04 PM
It's irresistable in the sense that we have no control over it or how God uses it...like God's mercy/judgement/etc.All grace means is kindness, favor or good will.
It is not a "force"

Remember the verse "who can resist his will."Do not take verses out of context.
That verse actualy menas:
For who has resisted God's intention?

Pharaoh hardened his heart as he resisted God & denied HIS sovereignty.
If God's intention was to use us the hardeness of pharaoh's heart, who can resist His intention?
However, you Pharaoh was always able to repent & was expected to; same goes for all of creation.



So if God has chosen to save someone, no man on earth can change what could has decided to act upon.The reason that God chooses one is because HE knows that the person will respond to Him in a positive mannor.


Thank goodness for my ultimate fate and everyone elses not resting in the hands of men..it rests in the hands of God.Yah, according to Calvinism/Reformed theology, you won the lotto of elect.

It is an arbitrary drawing, God elects some with out purpose or reason, as electing some and not others, merely because he could or would.
In other words, to exhibit his own sovereignty without any other reason than "just because HE wants to and that HE can".

Friend of I AM
Nov 19th 2008, 11:16 PM
All grace means is kindness, favor or good will.
It is not a "force"
Do not take verses out of context.
That verse actualy menas:
For who has resisted God's intention?


Can you resist any kindness God has planned for another man if he forces you to be kind to one? No. God gives mercy and grace to whom pleases, and uses whom he wants to dispense his kindness/mercy/grace to. So yes, God's grace is irresistable. No man can take the grace God has given to another man away. And God can force men to be kind to others if he wants to.



Pharaoh hardened his heart as he resisted God & denied HIS sovereignty.
If God's intention was to use us the hardeness of pharaoh's heart, who can resist His intention?
However, you Pharaoh was always able to repent & was expected to; same goes for all of creation.


God allowed Pharoah's heart to be hardened when he wanted to fulfill his purpose for the children of Israel. But Pharoah had allowed his heart to become hardened to God long before that.



The reason that God chooses one is because HE knows that the person will respond to Him in a positive mannor.


I'm not sure if that's the reason why he chooses one..but he does know how people will respond. Who knows how God chooses people in the end. We actually have a whole nother topic on this one regarding free will and what not. I think we came to a middle ground conclusion of..man has some choice, but God's sovereignty is greater than whatever choice man has made. I don't want to get into a Calvinist vs Armenian type argument with you..as I don't completely agree with aspects of either doctrine. That being said thanks for your input and hope you've gotten something out of what I've posted.

God bless in Christ,

Stephen

RogerW
Nov 20th 2008, 03:23 AM
Wikipedia definition in black, Scriptures in purple.

The saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect) (All that the Father gives me will come to me; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.") and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel("Those whom God predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified"; The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.; God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.; all who were appointed for eternal life believed; The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.; From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.; because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ; it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.) bringing them to a saving faith in Christ.

Hi Yuke,

If His grace is not irresistable there is no hope for any of us.

Many Blessings,
RW

SunnyE
Nov 20th 2008, 04:47 AM
In India there is alot of persecution going on right now, but even the Hindus are noticing that the more the Christians are being persecuted,
more people are becoming Christian.

That doesn't make Christianity irresistible, but one sees what the Holy Spirit can do in those situations.

matthew94
Nov 20th 2008, 05:30 AM
Grace is not irresistable. Grace makes us response-able.

Diolectic
Nov 20th 2008, 05:47 PM
All grace means is kindness, favor or good will.
It is not a "force"
Do not take verses out of context.
That verse actually means:
For who has resisted God's intention?Can you resist any kindness God has planned for another man if he forces you to be kind to one? No.
Where in Scripture dies god force anyone?

God gives mercy and grace to whom pleases, and uses whom he wants to dispense his kindness/mercy/grace to. So yes, God's grace is irresistable.There is good reason for whom God chooses to be gracious to and to whom HE will show mercy on. It is not arbitrary, meaning, God's elect to salvation is not depending solely on His will or discretion without being governed by any fixed rules.
For an example:
An arbitrary decision; an arbitrary choice of favor has undue bias, partiality.
The "fixed rules" must be outside of one will or discretion. God's election for salvation is according to standards of judgment; established law, rule, principle or fact, by which facts, propositions and opinions are compared by which a correct judgment may be formed.
God knows the heart of man. HE knows if & when they will yield or not.
God will be gracious to & show mercy on those HE knows will yield. For this is the character of God.
God has just & righteous reasons for showing mercy & giving grace (favor) which are based upon standards outside of Himself which has been before creation and are also according to His character; He is...
Selfless, Just, righteous, loving, companionate, peaceable, gentle, and easily entreated, full of mercy, without partiality...ect...
There is good reason for whom God chooses to be gracious to and to whom HE will show mercy on. It is not arbitrary, meaning, God's elect to salvation is not depending solely on His will or discretion without being governed by any fixed rules.
For an example:
An arbitrary decision; an arbitrary choice of favor has undue bias, partiality.

The "fixed rules" must be outside of one will or discretion. God's election for salvation is according to standards of judgment; established law, rule, principle or fact, by which facts, propositions and opinions are compared by which a correct judgment may be formed.
God knows the heart of man. HE knows if & when they will yield or not.
God will be gracious to & show mercy on those HE knows will yield. For this is the character of God.
God has just & righteous reasons for showing mercy & giving grace (favor) which are based upon standards outside of Himself which has been before creation and are also according to His character; He is...
Selfless, Just, righteous, loving, companionate, peaceable, gentle, and easily entreated, full of mercy, without partiality...ect...

No man can take the grace God has given to another man away. And God can force men to be kind to others if he wants to.
Were in Scripture does God force his will upon an individual?

The reason that God chooses one is because HE knows that the person will respond to Him in a positive manner. I'm not sure if that's the reason why he chooses one. but he does know how people will respond. Who knows how God chooses people in the end.
The bible tells us why.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 20th 2008, 05:57 PM
Where in Scripture dies god force anyone?


I can give you many examples from scripture. He forces Pharoah to let the children of Israel go with his judgement on Egypt. At the same time he is showing grace to the children of Israel in this scenario.

He essentially forces Jonah to go and preach to Ninevah, so that the people of Ninevah can receive his grace. Jonah realized that he could not die as he wanted to, because God would not let him die until he had set out to do what God had planned for him to do.

He forced Balaam back from going on the wrong path by putting the Angel of the Lord in front of him, and having his donkey lead him off the path. This was an act of grace.

Thus God's grace is irresistable. In fact all of his qualities are irresistable. There is no way to stop him. When he acts, no one can reverse it.

Matthew

Diolectic
Nov 20th 2008, 06:55 PM
Where in Scripture dies god force anyone?I can give you many examples from scripture. He forces Pharoah to let the children of Israel go with his judgement on Egypt. At the same time he is showing grace to the children of Israel in this scenario.That is called strongly persuading Pharaoh.


He essentially forces Jonah to go and preach to Ninevah, so that the people of Ninevah can receive his grace. Jonah realized that he could not die as he wanted to, because God would not let him die until he had set out to do what God had planned for him to do.
Again, that is strong persuasion.


He forced Balaam back from going on the wrong path by putting the Angel of the Lord in front of him, and having his donkey lead him off the path. This was an act of grace.Persuasion.


Thus God's grace is irresistable. In fact all of his qualities are irresistable. There is no way to stop him. When he acts, no one can reverse it.By force implies a physical moving of a person without the consent of the person.

God forcing one to His will implies God supernaturally moving one by dominational means.
Example:
God forcing Pharaoh to free God's people by actually changing Pharaoh's mind Himself without the consent of Pharaoh; without Pharaoh changing his own mind willfully by persuasion.

Another example of "force":
I picked my child up and force fed him the broccoli, I put the food in his mouth my self and moved his jaw to chew it, then pluged is nose and held his mouth shut untill he swallowed.

God does not force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. God strongly persuades men untill they willingly do what HE want's.
However, those who resist until death will suffer the consequences of their rebelion/disobediance.

Therefore, according to you, God’s grace is only a strong persuasion, which, by definition, can be resisted. For all persuasion can actually be resisted.

John146
Nov 20th 2008, 06:58 PM
I can give you many examples from scripture. He forces Pharoah to let the children of Israel go with his judgement on Egypt. At the same time he is showing grace to the children of Israel in this scenario.

He essentially forces Jonah to go and preach to Ninevah, so that the people of Ninevah can receive his grace. Jonah realized that he could not die as he wanted to, because God would not let him die until he had set out to do what God had planned for him to do.

He forced Balaam back from going on the wrong path by putting the Angel of the Lord in front of him, and having his donkey lead him off the path. This was an act of grace.

Thus God's grace is irresistable. In fact all of his qualities are irresistable. There is no way to stop him. When he acts, no one can reverse it.

MatthewWhen He acted by sending His Son to die for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD, so that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life, no one could stop Him. But if His grace was truly irresistible then everyone who heard the word of God preached would believe and be saved. But that isn't the case.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 20th 2008, 07:47 PM
When He acted by sending His Son to die for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD, so that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life, no one could stop Him.

So we are in agreement. God's grace is irresistable....as are his judgements, mercy, etc. When he acts in a certain way..no one can stop him. That was all that I was stating. No one man can say to another man "I've taken the cross away from you..you can no longer have faith in Christ and be saved" as God has already willed this to be part of his plan for salvation.

Matthew

drew
Nov 20th 2008, 07:58 PM
It's irresistable in the sense that we have no control over it or how God uses it...like God's mercy/judgement/etc. Remember the verse "who can resist his will." So if God has chosen to save someone, no man on earth can change what could has decided to act upon. Thank goodness for my ultimate fate and everyone elses not resting in the hands of men..it rests in the hands of God.
I will echo what Diolectic said: please do not take this out of context.

If you are referring to the use of this phrase in Romans 9, then it is entirely incorrect to apply it to the matter of irresistable grace unto salvation. The Romans 9 use has nothing to do with personal salvation. In Romans 9 this statement is made after giving the Esau / Jacob and Pharaoh / Moses examples. In each of those cases, issues of God's selection unto an eternal destiny are nowhere in sight.

John146
Nov 20th 2008, 08:00 PM
So we are in agreement. God's grace is irresistableDid you not read the rest of my post? We clearly are NOT in agreement because I'm saying God's grace is resistible.


....as are his judgements, mercy, etc. When he acts in a certain way..no one can stop him. That was all that I was stating. No one man can say to another man "I've taken the cross away from you..you can no longer have faith in Christ and be saved" as God has already willed this to be part of his plan for salvation.

MatthewIf you believe that it was God's will for only few to be saved while not giving the rest any opportunity to be saved then you are mistaken. Is that what you believe?

drew
Nov 20th 2008, 08:04 PM
I can give you many examples from scripture. He forces Pharoah to let the children of Israel go with his judgement on Egypt. At the same time he is showing grace to the children of Israel in this scenario.

He essentially forces Jonah to go and preach to Ninevah, so that the people of Ninevah can receive his grace. Jonah realized that he could not die as he wanted to, because God would not let him die until he had set out to do what God had planned for him to do.

He forced Balaam back from going on the wrong path by putting the Angel of the Lord in front of him, and having his donkey lead him off the path. This was an act of grace.

Thus God's grace is irresistable. In fact all of his qualities are irresistable. There is no way to stop him. When he acts, no one can reverse it.

Matthew
Those of you who know my generally "non-Calvinist" position may be surprised that I will agree with this, although with some qualifications.

I do agree that God "forced" Pharaoh to do certain things. And I have no doubt that He has "forced" other people to do other things. However, such examples should not be generalized to the matter of ultimate salvation. Just because God "forces" people to do certain things in certain circumstances does not mean that ultimate salvation is also pre-destined.

So I do agree that God has repeatedly "manipulated" the activities of persons in history to achieve his purposes. However, I do not think that there is any Scriptural case for His pre-destining of people unto an ultimate destiny.

John146
Nov 20th 2008, 08:05 PM
I will echo what Diolectic said: please do not take this out of context.

If you are referring to the use of this phrase in Romans 9, then it is entirely incorrect to apply it to the matter of irresistable grace unto salvation. The Romans 9 use has nothing to do with personal salvation. In Romans 9 this statement is made after giving the Esau / Jacob and Pharaoh / Moses examples. In each of those cases, issues of God's selection unto an eternal destiny are nowhere in sight.Absolutely. It doesn't say that Pharaoah was hardened so that he would be condemend for eternity. It says "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.". Nothing about being hardened unto eternal damnation. Nothing about Pharaoh never in his life being given any ability to repent and believe.

It doesn't say that Jacob was elected to salvation while Esau was not. It says "The elder shall serve the younger.". How does someone pull the idea of Jacob being elected to salvation and Esau not being elected to salvation from that?

John146
Nov 20th 2008, 08:08 PM
Those of you who know my generally "non-Calvinist" position may be surprised that I will agree with this, although with some qualifications.

I do agree that God "forced" Pharaoh to do certain things. And I have no doubt that He has "forced" other people to do other things. However, such examples should not be generalized to the matter of ultimate salvation. Just because God "forces" people to do certain things in certain circumstances does not mean that ultimate salvation is also pre-destined.

So I do agree that God has repeatedly "manipulated" the activities of persons in history to achieve his purposes. However, I do not think that there is any Scriptural case for His pre-destining of people unto an ultimate destiny.There are several examples of God hardening people's hearts and giving them over to their wickedness. This is only after people have already hardened their own hearts. We can see this in Romans 1:18-32 and 2 Thess 2:9-12. What kind of God would harden people's hearts to the truth from birth while never giving them the ability to turn from their sins and to believe the truth? Not a loving, gracious and merciful God.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 20th 2008, 08:08 PM
Did you not read the rest of my post? We clearly are NOT in agreement because I'm saying God's grace is resistible.

If you believe that it was God's will for only few to be saved while not giving the rest any opportunity to be saved then you are mistaken. Is that what you believe?

I believe it is God's desire for all to be saved. I believe some will not accept the grace of God that has been offered. I believe that God has set certain plans in motion in terms of salvation that cannot be changed by any of his creations. Do you believe otherwise?

John146
Nov 20th 2008, 08:11 PM
I believe it is God's desire for all to be saved. I believe some will not accept the grace of God that has been offered.Agree


I believe that God has set certain plans in motion in terms of salvation that cannot be changed by any of his creations. Do you believe otherwise?What do you mean by that exactly? To be clear, I certainly believe that God desires all to be saved and that all people have the ability to repent and believe in Christ and are expected to make the choice to do so in order to be saved. Do you agree with that?

drew
Nov 20th 2008, 08:12 PM
There are several examples of God hardening people's hearts and giving them over to their wickedness. This is only after people have already hardened their own hearts. We can see this in Romans 1:18-32 and 2 Thess 2:9-12. What kind of God would harden people's hearts to the truth from birth while never giving them the ability to turn from their sins and to believe the truth? Not a loving, gracious and merciful God.
Although I did not say this in my post, I entirely agree with the above.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 20th 2008, 08:14 PM
Agree


Hallelujah..we're making progress..




What do you mean by that exactly? To be clear, I certainly believe that God desires all to be saved and that all people have the ability to repent and believe in Christ and are expected to make the choice to do so in order to be saved. Do you agree with that?


I agree that God desires all men to be saved. God sets plans in motion in order for men to be saved, that cannot be changed by anyone other than him. That is all I meant. Do you agree with that?

drew
Nov 20th 2008, 08:18 PM
I agree that God desires all men to be saved. God sets plans in motion in order for men to be saved, that cannot be changed by anyone other than him. That is all I meant. Do you agree with that?
I think I share John 146's confusion about your question. Are you asserting that God sets plansin motion for all men to be saved? If He sets plans in motion for only some men to be saved, then He really does not desire that all men be saved. Why do I say this? Because it makes no sense that there would be some He desires to be saved, yet makes no plans for their being saved.

John146
Nov 20th 2008, 08:31 PM
I agree that God desires all men to be saved. God sets plans in motion in order for men to be saved, that cannot be changed by anyone other than him. That is all I meant. Do you agree with that?I'm not sure because I don't know exactly what you mean by that. Do you believe that God sets plans in motion for everyone to be saved but some are not saved because they willfully reject His plans?

John146
Nov 20th 2008, 08:48 PM
Here's an angle that hasn't been discussed yet. If grace was irresistible then why do we have scripture that speaks of people falling away from the faith? I'm not interested in debating OSAS vs. NOSAS because there are already plenty of threads for that. That's besides the point I want to make here. Let's look at this passage:

Hebrews 6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now, there's much debate over whether this is speaking of people who are saved falling away and losing their salvation or if it's speaking of people who are given a taste but are not actually saved and then fall away. But, again, which of those options is true doesn't matter in regards to the point I'm making, so please don't try to start yet another debate on that issue here.

The question I want to ask those who believe in irresistible grace is: Were those who fell away after being enlightened, tasting of the heavenly gift and partaking of the Holy Spirit not shown grace by God? In other words, was His grace not offered and extended to them? It seems clear that it was. How else could they have been enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift and been partakers of teh Holy Spirit? And yet, they fell away. So, how can you try to say that God's grace is irresistible when these people clearly resisted it by falling away from the truth?


Eric

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 20th 2008, 08:56 PM
I'm not sure because I don't know exactly what you mean by that. Do you believe that God sets plans in motion for everyone to be saved but some are not saved because they willfully reject His plans?

God sets plans in motion for people to be saved. People can't change these plans. People can choose to reject the means that he's offered them to be saved. God knows who will reject and who will accept his plans. Look at this verse...

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

God has offerred his people grace in the verse above. He has a set plan in motion to offer this grace. Thus, no one will be able to resist his will for his people once his plan is completely set in motion.

John146
Nov 20th 2008, 09:00 PM
God sets plans in motion for people to be saved. People can't change these plans. People can choose to reject the means that he's offered them to be saved. God knows who will reject and who will accept his plans. Look at this verse...

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

God has offerred his people grace in the verse above. He has a set plan in motion to offer this grace. Thus, no one will be able to resist his will for his people once his plan is completely set in motion.If I am understanding you right, you are contradicting yourself. You believe that God desires all to be saved but does not set plans in motion for all to be saved? How does that make any sense? Or do you believe all will be saved? You seem to first be saying that people can reject His plans and then you seem to be saying that no one can resist His plans. Please be more specific and clarify your position.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 20th 2008, 09:05 PM
If I am understanding you right, you are contradicting yourself. You believe that God desires all to be saved but does not set plans in motion for all to be saved? How does that make any sense?


No contradiction. If someone rejects Christ, does that mean that God's plan of having faith in Christ to be saved is not still active for others? Can a man's choice in effect change God's ultimate will/plan?



Or do you believe all will be saved?


I believe God will have mercy on all men in some shape or form. I don't know how this will be manifested to everyone though.

John146
Nov 20th 2008, 09:45 PM
No contradiction. If someone rejects Christ, does that mean that God's plan of having faith in Christ to be saved is not still active for others?No.


Can a man's choice in effect change God's ultimate will/plan?No. But I think we need to make the distinction between God's desire and His unchangeable will. God can desire for something to occur without it actually occurring. Here is an example:

Matt 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

But if He declares that He is going to do something then it will happen and no one can stop it. Again, we have to differentiate between these two perspectives.


I believe God will have mercy on all men in some shape or form. I don't know how this will be manifested to everyone though.Are you suggesting that you believe all people will eventually be saved?

Diolectic
Nov 20th 2008, 11:01 PM
I believe it is God's desire for all to be saved. I believe some will not accept the grace of God that has been offered.According to Calvinism/Reformed theology, God will not let them accept the grace of God, all because HE doesn't want them to.


God sets plans in motion for people to be saved. People can't change these plans. People can choose to reject the means that he's offered them to be saved. God knows who will reject and who will accept his plans. Look at this verse...According to Calvinism/Reformed theology, peple can not choose to reject the means that God offered them to be saved, because they don't have the choice to choose.

Yukerboy
Nov 21st 2008, 07:30 AM
God will not let them accept the grace of God, all because HE doesn't want them to.

God wants them to, but God's desire and God's will are two separate things as John146 points out. Therefore, God's will doesn't allow for grace to be offered to them.


peple can not choose to reject the means that God offered them to be saved, because they don't have the choice to choose.

Amen.

9Marksfan
Nov 21st 2008, 11:37 AM
Irresistable Grace


The magical "stuff" that God put on only the people he likes, which dominates their will and controls their thoughts to the point of making them want what they didn't want before, and think what they didn't think before.

Kinda crude way of putting it, but I'm so glad God did change me and make me willing in the Day of His Power - isn't that a bit like falling in love with someone, when you are overwhelmed by their beauty and loveliness? It's them who has changed you - but you haven't been forced to change! It's a mystery, yet it's glorious!



Irresistable Grace is equivelent to "rape of the soul*" and an obduction of the unwilling.



*RC sproul


Can you give a full citation/quote, please?

John146
Nov 21st 2008, 03:22 PM
God wants them to, but God's desire and God's will are two separate things as John146 points out. Therefore, God's will doesn't allow for grace to be offered to them.Hebrews 6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Were people who fell away despite having once been enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift and made partakers of the Holy Spirit not offered grace?

Matt 22
1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Were the Jews who rejected Christ not offered grace?

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 21st 2008, 03:44 PM
No.
But I think we need to make the distinction between God's desire and His unchangeable will. God can desire for something to occur without it actually occurring. Here is an example:

Matt 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

But if He declares that He is going to do something then it will happen and no one can stop it. Again, we have to differentiate between these two perspectives.


Okay, I can agree with you here. Just to add to what you've stated, his will and desire both possess infinite qualities to them.




Are you suggesting that you believe all people will eventually be saved?

I believe God will demonstrate mercy on all to a degree. I don't know what this means in the grand scheme of things. Scriptures state that God bound all men to disobedience in order to demonstrate this mercy. This doesn't mean that God will not provide judgement, just that God will demonstrate and enact his judgements...righteously as well as mercifully.

Matthew

Diolectic
Nov 21st 2008, 05:25 PM
God will not let them accept the grace of God, all because HE doesn't want them toGod wants them to,According to Calvinism & Reformed theology, God does NOT want to save the non-elect.


but God's desire and God's will are two separate things as John146 points out. Therefore, God's will doesn't allow for grace to be offered to them.Your calling God a schizophrenic.
If not that, your making God to be insincere, willing one thing and desiring another.
God commands His will, but secretly desiring another is wrong.

Just as you talk about Pharaoh in Romans 9
When God commands Pharoah to let His people free, that is what all mankind is suposed to think is the will of God.
however, God's true will(desire) is for Pharaoh to keep sinning and disobey the command.

This is deceptive manipulation.



peple can not choose to reject the means that God offered them to be saved, because they don't have the choice to choose.Amen.That is contrary to Scripture.
It is cleare that man rejects God, He does not reject Man, not the otherway around; you have it in opposition to Scripture.

If you think you have proofe in Scripture where God rejects man, be aware that is is because they first rejected Him.

John146
Nov 21st 2008, 09:21 PM
Okay, I can agree with you here. Just to add to what you've stated, his will and desire both possess infinite qualities to them.

I believe God will demonstrate mercy on all to a degree. I don't know what this means in the grand scheme of things. Scriptures state that God bound all men to disobedience in order to demonstrate this mercy. This doesn't mean that God will not provide judgement, just that God will demonstrate and enact his judgements...righteously as well as mercifully.

MatthewOkay, fair enough. Thanks for clarifying your view.

Yukerboy
Nov 21st 2008, 10:04 PM
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Were people who fell away despite having once been enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift and made partakers of the Holy Spirit not offered grace?

Exactly. Not all who are from the faith are of the faith. As John said "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

Only those who belong to Christ remain in Christ. Those who fall away never "really belonged" to Christ.


Matt 22
1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Were the Jews who rejected Christ not offered grace?

Once again, you answer your own question. They were never offered grace as they would not come when called by the servants. Why didn't they come? As Paul said "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come" and "He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and harden whom He shall harden."


According to Calvinism & Reformed theology, God does NOT want to save the non-elect.


That may be, but according to MY theology, God will not save the non-elect. God desires all men to come to repentance. Therefore, God's will and God's desires are separate. If not, you have universalism.

If you disagree, that's fine. My God is omnipotent. Everything my God wills happens. If I am calling my God a schizophenic, then you must be calling your god weak for his will can be overcome by man's will.


It is cleare that man rejects God, He does not reject Man, not the otherway around; you have it in opposition to Scripture.

If you think you have proofe in Scripture where God rejects man, be aware that is is because they first rejected Him.

You are also free to believe that. However, I will go by the Scripture where Paul states "he chose us in him before the creation of the world" and "before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad" which then means before either had first rejected God. You may believe man rejected Him before the creation. I cannot.

It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. If you consider will and desire the same, then this also shows that man's will or effort or desire does nothing, only God's mercy. If it depended on man's desire, will, or effort, then no one would be saved.