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DurbanDude
Nov 20th 2008, 07:12 AM
During the time that Jesus is to rule here on earth , known by pre-mills as the millenium , there seem to be mortals who did not receive their immortal resurrection bodies. I believe these are the ungodly survivors of the tribulation. I haven't researched every possible verse here , but listed some that I believe support this view. I believe that every ungodly person will experience some destruction on the Day of The Lord, all participating in the war in Israel will die, there will be destruction of homes, destruction of families, even their cities will be destroyed, but some will still survive.

DISCUSSION: What are your objections to this, if any, or what are your own views?

REV 21:25 And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day (for there shall be no night there):
REV 21:26 and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it:
REV 21:27 and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb's book of life.

REV 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right `to come' to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
REV 22:15 Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.

Often pre-tribbers divide believers into pre-trib (raptured) believers and then tribulation saints, believing the tribulation saints are the mortal survivors to go into the millenium , however we just see two divisions here , those that can enter the city and the ungodly who cannot.


Here we see a millenium scenario , where God dwells in Israel:
ZECH 8:3 Thus saith Jehovah: I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called The city of truth; and the mountain of Jehovah of hosts, The holy mountain.
ZECH 8:4 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
ZECH 8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
ZECH 8:6 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith Jehovah of hosts.

ZECH 8:20 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: `It shall' yet `come to pass', that there shall come peoples, and the inhabitants of many cities;
ZECH 8:21 and the inhabitants of one `city' shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to entreat the favor of Jehovah, and to seek Jehovah of hosts: I will go also.
ZECH 8:22 Yea, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek Jehovah of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of Jehovah.
ZECH 8:23 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days `it shall come to pass', that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.

Who do you think are the nations that dwell on earth during the millenium but don't really know God , aren't blessed by God so that they tend to see the Jews as having a special blessing? Why are these Jews mortal (old men in the streets) when the first resurrection has already occurred?

If you read Zechariah 14, the context is millenial:
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

These seem to be survivors who are still sometimes disobedient to God (ungodly survivors) , otherwise why would God threaten them with no rain if there is disobedience?

Isaiah 65:
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Who are these accursed people who don't live beyond 100 years while living during a period of great blessing? If they are accursed surely they are the ungodly?

Isaiah
2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more

Who are these people who don't know the ways of God and want to go to Israel to learn? Who are the nations that will be rebuked and who beat their swords into plowshares?

third hero
Nov 20th 2008, 08:27 AM
Durbandude,
I would like to introduce to you the seventh chapter of Daniel. In it, there s undeniable proof that there are survivors after the return of the Lord.


The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. -Daniel 7:4-8

Now, compare these verses to the next ones here:

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. -Revelation 13:1-5

Now, we find that the fourth beast in Daniel 7 is different from the other beasts that were before it. We also find that the beast in Revelation 13 has all of the characteristics of all four of the beasts in Daniel 7. Also, the little horn, like the beast in Revelation, speaks great things, and blasphemies against God. The similarities show me that there may possibly be a link, something that says to me: Daniel 7 is the foretelling of the events in Revelation 13-20.

There is nore evidence, and it is found in the same chapters that we are comparing. But that is not the reason why I have brought this chapter up. If you wantto see the entire corelation between Daniel 7 and Revelation 13-20, then read both.

This is why I brought this up. Check out verses 11-12. When these verses come about, the Ancient of Days is present and a judgment id handed down. Before Him were myriads of people, "ten thousand times ten thousand" to be exact. Then the judgment is handed down. Here is the result.

I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. -Daniel 7:11-12

According to this judgment, the lives of the rest of the beasts were prolonged for a season. This means that when this judgment is sent down, the fourth beast is destroyed, and the little horn's fate is the burning flame. The rest are permitted to live for a while.

IS this the same as the time of the Lord's return? Well, let's look at the next verses.

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came [I]with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. -Verses 13-14

Now, in this vision, we find the Ancient of Days passing down judgment to the "ten thousand times ten thousand", and "they" brought the "son of Man" before the Ancient of Days. The Ancient one then gives Him dominion over all of the earth. Doesn't this look familiar?

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Matthew 24:30-31

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. -Revelation 19:11-15

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. -Revelation 19:19-20

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. -Revelation 20:4-8

Still not convincing? Well let's see some other portions of Daniel 7.

And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. -Daniel 7:20-22


Oh look! The saints are given the Kingdom, and they rule the world with Lord Jesus, after the little horn wages war against them and prevails for a little while.

"Hey wait!" Says the opposition. Where does it say that the beast in Revelation 13 wages war against the saints? Well, it says it right....


...here
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. -Revelation 13:7

It appears that we have a match! Daniel 7 is the first telling of Revelation 13-20.

Since that is the case, then is there going to be survivors of the second coming that will be mortals? The answer is yes. In Daniel 7:12, the remnant of the beast will lose their authority, but will be allowed to live for a while longer. In Revelation 20, after Satan is imprisoned for 1000 years, he goes about to deceive the nations once again. One can not deceive what is not there. What are those nations? Well, they can not be the tribulation saints, since the Tibulation saints do not have to fear the second death, or the Lake of Fire, which we find at the end of chapter 20 is where the Beast and the False prophet were, those who beheaded the Tibulation saints and led the world against God.

Bolster that with Matthew 25:31-32

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

Now, according to these verses, Lord Jesus, when He comes in glory, which in chapter 24 all the tribes of the earth will see with their own eyes, then he shall sit upon His throne, and judge the nations. According to this passage, He judges those who he deems worthy of living, and those who will be tossed into the Lake with their masters the beast and the false prophet. If you read further into that chapter, those hwo treated His people kindly will be spared, while the rest are hurled into the Lake of Fire.

All of this adds up to one thing. There will be survivors after the Lord returns.

(BTW, In Zechariah 14, the remnant of the nations will be required to send delegations to Jerusalem to worship the King of Kings during the feast of tabernacles, further proving that there has to be survivors of the return of the Lord who will not be counted as part of the Tribulation Saints.)

DurbanDude
Nov 20th 2008, 09:22 AM
Since that is the case, then is there going to be survivors of the second coming that will be mortals? The answer is yes. In Daniel 7:12, the remnant of the beast will lose their authority, but will be allowed to live for a while longer. In Revelation 20, after Satan is imprisoned for 1000 years, he goes about to deceive the nations once again. One can not deceive what is not there. What are those nations? Well, they can not be the tribulation saints, since the Tibulation saints do not have to fear the second death, or the Lake of Fire, which we find at the end of chapter 20 is where the Beast and the False prophet were, those who beheaded the Tibulation saints and led the world against God.


Thanks for giving more scripture, yes I've always said Daniel 7 ties in with the beast of Revelation even though there are subtle differences.

Referring to the quote above , this is an interesting argument , I don't know then why some people would believe the "tribulation saints" are the ones who survive as mortals into the millenium when these same tribulation saints are told they don't have to fear the second death, yet the mortal survivors are the ones who will be deceived and experience the second death.

Those who separate the tribulation saints from other saints should have a consistent argument.

jeffweeder
Nov 20th 2008, 09:42 AM
Those that are against Christ in the millenium, number the sand of the sea...billions of people no doubt, weve never been this close.
Yet Christ comes like it was in Noahs day, when all those against God were destroyed...with no trace.
So the millenium can only be the gospel age...blessed are those who partake..in belief...of the first ressurection...the flood../ second death wont hurt them.

When Jesus said that his coming would be like it was in the days of Noah, he meant that only those on the ark ,at his coming , would see the new world.

Which is why Peter looked to this;



Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

DurbanDude
Nov 20th 2008, 10:37 AM
Those that are against Christ in the millenium, number the sand of the sea...billions of people no doubt, weve never been this close.
Yet Christ comes like it was in Noahs day, when all those against God were destroyed...with no trace.
So the millenium can only be the gospel age...blessed are those who partake..in belief...of the first ressurection...the flood../ second death wont hurt them.

When Jesus said that his coming would be like it was in the days of Noah, he meant that only those on the ark ,at his coming , would see the new world.

Which is why Peter looked to this;

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

.

jeffweeder , the context of the verses in the opening post show that there will be a period of absolute peace under the direct rule of Jesus, during a period when the New Jerusalem will exist. This is a period when Jesus rules the nations with an iron rod, and all nations have to be obedient or will be punished.

This scenario does not fit in with the current period at all , at the moment we don't have peace on earth with most mortals living beyond 100 years and all the nations having respect for God, and Israel being at the forefront of earth. I still dont know how this period of peace on earth with mortals existing at the same time fits into amillenial theology , because the theme is very strong in the old testament with hundreds of verses describing this period of peace on earth.

John146
Nov 20th 2008, 10:36 PM
During the time that Jesus is to rule here on earth , known by pre-mills as the millenium , there seem to be mortals who did not receive their immortal resurrection bodies. I believe these are the ungodly survivors of the tribulation. I haven't researched every possible verse here , but listed some that I believe support this view. I believe that every ungodly person will experience some destruction on the Day of The Lord, all participating in the war in Israel will die, there will be destruction of homes, destruction of families, even their cities will be destroyed, but some will still survive. Paul says they shall not escape. They will not survive. None of them.

1 Thess 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

This is who he is talking about:

2 Thess 1
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

You have some who "know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" surviving His coming. Why doesn't Paul mention that? He doesn't allow for any exceptions anywhere that I can see.

Neither does Jesus:

Luke 17
26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

All unbelievers were killed in the days of Noah and Lot and so it will be when Christ returns. All who do not know God or obey the gospel of Christ will be killed. No exceptions. Unlike the passages you bring up, these passages clearly refer to what happens at the second coming of Christ. After He comes, all believers will have immortal bodies and all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire. There is no third group of mortal unbelieving survivors.

There is further evidence to consider. When does Jesus return? At the end of the age, right? Look what it says about the end of the age (world):

Matt 13
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus returns at the end of the age. What else happens at that time? The tares, which refer to unbelievers, are ALL gathered and are cast into a furnace of fire. This is no doubt a reference to the lake of fire. It doesn't say anyone survives. What about believers? We know from 1 Cor 15:51-54 that we will all be changed and have immortal bodies when Christ returns. Then we will "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of (our) Father". Again, this happens at the end of the age, which is when Christ returns. Not a thousand years later.

This parable teaches the same thing:

Matt 13
47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

When Christ returns at the end of the age, all the dead will be resurrected (John 5:28-29) and all people will be gathered for judgment (Matt 25:31-46). Then everyone will be separated with believers inheriting the kingdom of the Father (1 Cor 15:50, Matt 13:43, Matt 25:34) that will be delivered to Him when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:23-24) and unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire (Matt 13:42, 50, Matt 25:41, Rev 20:15).

DurbanDude
Nov 21st 2008, 07:56 AM
John146, what you are saying does make sense and is a good point. You have responded with an alternative view , but then how do you interpret the verses I quoted in the OP , and also those of 3H? Iwould like to hear your views on these verses.

The last couple of days I have been having discussions on various threads and have consistently been coming up with the same theme, the bible consistently appears to compact end-time events and then reveal the extended order later:

Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29 mention just 1 resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous, yet Rev 20:4-6 mentions 2 resurrections 1000 years apart

Rev 20 says the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire 1000 years after the first resurrection , yet Matthew 25 implies that the "goats" are thrown into everlasting fire when the Son of Man comes in His glory.

In Isaiah 61 there seems to be a jump from the earthly ministry of Jesus to the millenial reign, Jesus quotes Isaiah 61 (ref Luke 4:17-21) about his earthly ministry:
61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

In 3 of the gospels mention is made of the abomination during tribulation times for Jerusalem. This appears at first glance to be associated with the 70AD war, but Jesus seems also to associate this abomination with false christs and great signs in the heavens and the visible coming of Christ,so the prophecy moves from imminent events to the far future without a break.
24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
......................
24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Unless we understand that events fulfil prophecies in a progressive way we will all be able to prove the other person wrong. There is no clarity unless you understand the bible was not written as a chronological book but was written more as spiritual poetry. Amongst many amazing qualities, God is also poet and mathematician.

John146, this long point was to show you that sometimes the interim period of the millenium is ignored, yes none of the earthly will escape the destruction on the day of the Lord , some will survive but have families and homes destroyed , some will experience the destruction of their souls at the second death at the end of the millenium when they are cast into the lake of fire, none of the ungodly will escape destruction.



When Christ returns at the end of the age, all the dead will be resurrected (John 5:28-29) and all people will be gathered for judgment (Matt 25:31-46). Then everyone will be separated with believers inheriting the kingdom of the Father (1 Cor 15:50, Matt 13:43, Matt 25:34) that will be delivered to Him when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:23-24) and unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire (Matt 13:42, 50, Matt 25:41, Rev 20:15


Revelation 20 says that unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire 1000 years later than the first resurrection, so the concept of unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire at the return of Christ is incorrect.
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Please note that Matthew 13 is referring to the end of the world , not the end of the age. The millenium occurs on this world, and Revelation does teach us that the end of the world is at the end of the millenium when there is a new earth. Thus Matthew 13 supports my view that the unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire at the end of the 1000 years , 1000 years after the resurrection , and 1000 years after the second coming

jeffweeder
Nov 21st 2008, 10:21 AM
Rev 20 says the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire 1000 years after the first resurrection , yet Matthew 25 implies that the "goats" are thrown into everlasting fire when the Son of Man comes in His glory.

So does 2 thess 1...they suffer eternal seperation on the day he comes to be Glorified in his saints.


There is a time of grace for the gentiles to come in, and its called the Millenium.

How can you not tell me that you have not already passed from death to life, and the day of judgement cannot hurt you..because of what Jesus has already done for you?

You need not experience a further ressurection, to protect you from the second death, but you have that assurance now...dont you?

You said it yourself, that Jesus is coming to seperate....His coming will judge everyone according to their deeds.

The word he spoke 2000 years ago will judge them when he appears the last day.. Jn 12
But he will raise us that last day, because we believed the testamony, and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God has fixed a day....He is patient now, not willing that any reject the message that his son Jesus hath given to us.
Today is the day to embrace the Gospel of Jesus, cause those who reject it will will find themseves in 2 thess 1 eternally seperated from his presence, but we who have believed and held on tightly, will be raptured in his glory.

There is no-one left when the lord comes as it was in Noahs day, but those who recieve Jesus are worthy, and we marvel and enjoy the New world , that he has gone to prepare for us...and brings with him

DurbanDude
Nov 21st 2008, 10:48 AM
So does 2 thess 1...they suffer eternal seperation on the day he comes to be Glorified in his saints.


There is a time of grace for the gentiles to come in, and its called the Millenium.

How can you not tell me that you have not already passed from death to life, and the day of judgement cannot hurt you..because of what Jesus has already done for you?

You need not experience a further ressurection, to protect you from the second death, but you have that assurance now...dont you?

You said it yourself, that Jesus is coming to seperate....His coming will judge everyone according to their deeds.

The word he spoke 2000 years ago will judge them when he appears the last day.. Jn 12
But he will raise us that last day, because we believed the testamony, and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God has fixed a day....He is patient now, not willing that any reject the message that his son Jesus hath given to us.
Today is the day to embrace the Gospel of Jesus, cause those who reject it will will find themseves in 2 thess 1 eternally seperated from his presence, but we who have believed and held on tightly, will be raptured in his glory.

There is no-one left when the lord comes as it was in Noahs day, but those who recieve Jesus are worthy, and we marvel and enjoy the New world , that he has gone to prepare for us...and brings with him

Are you saying that all the references in the OP are happening now?

eg 1) about mortals being considered young if they die at 100 years old (Isaiah 65 20)
2) all nations travel to Jerusalem otherwise there is no rain
3) Isaiah 2:4 period where there is no more war

There are hundreds and maybe thousands of verses about his period , where does this period of absolute physical peace of Israel and Israel being more blessed than other nations fit into your theology?

John146
Nov 21st 2008, 10:16 PM
John146, what you are saying does make sense and is a good point. You have responded with an alternative view , but then how do you interpret the verses I quoted in the OP , and also those of 3H? Iwould like to hear your views on these verses.Let me get back to you on that. Don't have time right now. For now, let me just say that I do believe the scriptures I posted clearly refer to the second coming of Christ and the events surrounding it while the ones you posted are highly debatable and don't mention the second coming at all.


The last couple of days I have been having discussions on various threads and have consistently been coming up with the same theme, the bible consistently appears to compact end-time events and then reveal the extended order later:

Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29 mention just 1 resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous, yet Rev 20:4-6 mentions 2 resurrections 1000 years apart

Rev 20 says the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire 1000 years after the first resurrection , yet Matthew 25 implies that the "goats" are thrown into everlasting fire when the Son of Man comes in His glory.

In Isaiah 61 there seems to be a jump from the earthly ministry of Jesus to the millenial reign, Jesus quotes Isaiah 61 (ref Luke 4:17-21) about his earthly ministry:
61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

In 3 of the gospels mention is made of the abomination during tribulation times for Jerusalem. This appears at first glance to be associated with the 70AD war, but Jesus seems also to associate this abomination with false christs and great signs in the heavens and the visible coming of Christ,so the prophecy moves from imminent events to the far future without a break.
24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
......................
24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Unless we understand that events fulfil prophecies in a progressive way we will all be able to prove the other person wrong. There is no clarity unless you understand the bible was not written as a chronological book but was written more as spiritual poetry. Amongst many amazing qualities, God is also poet and mathematician.

John146, this long point was to show you that sometimes the interim period of the millenium is ignored, yes none of the earthly will escape the destruction on the day of the Lord , some will survive but have families and homes destroyed , some will experience the destruction of their souls at the second death at the end of the millenium when they are cast into the lake of fire, none of the ungodly will escape destruction.The day of the Lord arrives when Christ arrives. That's what I think you miss. Besides what I already said, 2 Peter 3:10-12 also shows that the idea of mortal survivors on the day Christ returns is not possible.




Revelation 20 says that unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire 1000 years later than the first resurrection, so the concept of unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire at the return of Christ is incorrect.
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Please note that Matthew 13 is referring to the end of the world , not the end of the age. The millenium occurs on this world, and Revelation does teach us that the end of the world is at the end of the millenium when there is a new earth. Thus Matthew 13 supports my view that the unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire at the end of the 1000 years , 1000 years after the resurrection , and 1000 years after the second comingNo, it does not support your view. Do you believe that Jesus returns at the end of the age? Is that not implied in Matthew 24:3?

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The Greek word for "world" there is "aion" and it is probably better translated as "age". The same word is used in the Matthew 13 passages. Therefore, both Matthew 13 and Matthew 24 are speaking of the very same end of the age.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 21st 2008, 11:19 PM
Let me get back to you on that. Don't have time right now. For now, let me just say that I do believe the scriptures I posted clearly refer to the second coming of Christ and the events surrounding it while the ones you posted are highly debatable and don't mention the second coming at all.

The day of the Lord arrives when Christ arrives. That's what I think you miss. Besides what I already said, 2 Peter 3:10-12 also shows that the idea of mortal survivors on the day Christ returns is not possible.

No, it does not support your view. Do you believe that Jesus returns at the end of the age? Is that not implied in Matthew 24:3?

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The Greek word for "world" there is "aion" and it is probably better translated as "age". The same word is used in the Matthew 13 passages. Therefore, both Matthew 13 and Matthew 24 are speaking of the very same end of the age.

Jesus speaks of:
Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [age], neither in the world [age]to come

And Paul says:

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

DurbanDude
Nov 22nd 2008, 05:47 AM
Let me get back to you on that. Don't have time right now. For now, let me just say that I do believe the scriptures I posted clearly refer to the second coming of Christ and the events surrounding it while the ones you posted are highly debatable and don't mention the second coming at all.

Hmm? Looks like a consistent theme here ...avoiding the opening post :hmm:, joking. So your view on those verses is highly debatable? If those verses are not millenial according to you, where do they fit in?


The day of the Lord arrives when Christ arrives. That's what I think you miss. Besides what I already said, 2 Peter 3:10-12 also shows that the idea of mortal survivors on the day Christ returns is not possible

Interesting thatyou didn't comment on my whole point of progressive fulfilment , I wonder if you missed my point.

I definitely agree that the day of the Lord arrives when Christ arrives, no argument there. I already explained why some verses appear to contradict Revelation 20 , sometimes the bible says events are together when really they are thousands of years apart. I listed four separate events to prove my point. There are many verses like this in the bible , about various different events. We can debate each verse if you like, at least some of them will be obvious to you that prophecies are progressively fulfilled. You still haven't given me your version of Rev 20 , and Rev 20 contradicts your view on 2 Peter 3:10-12. I've explained why some verses seem to contradict eachother, yet I haven't heard your explanation on how Rev 20 fits into 2 Peter 3:10-12 or Matt 24 ... or Matt 13.

wpm
Nov 22nd 2008, 06:18 PM
John146, what you are saying does make sense and is a good point. You have responded with an alternative view , but then how do you interpret the verses I quoted in the OP , and also those of 3H? Iwould like to hear your views on these verses.

The last couple of days I have been having discussions on various threads and have consistently been coming up with the same theme, the bible consistently appears to compact end-time events and then reveal the extended order later:

Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29 mention just 1 resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous, yet Rev 20:4-6 mentions 2 resurrections 1000 years apart

Rev 20 says the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire 1000 years after the first resurrection , yet Matthew 25 implies that the "goats" are thrown into everlasting fire when the Son of Man comes in His glory.

In Isaiah 61 there seems to be a jump from the earthly ministry of Jesus to the millenial reign, Jesus quotes Isaiah 61 (ref Luke 4:17-21) about his earthly ministry:
61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

In 3 of the gospels mention is made of the abomination during tribulation times for Jerusalem. This appears at first glance to be associated with the 70AD war, but Jesus seems also to associate this abomination with false christs and great signs in the heavens and the visible coming of Christ,so the prophecy moves from imminent events to the far future without a break.
24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
......................
24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Unless we understand that events fulfil prophecies in a progressive way we will all be able to prove the other person wrong. There is no clarity unless you understand the bible was not written as a chronological book but was written more as spiritual poetry. Amongst many amazing qualities, God is also poet and mathematician.

John146, this long point was to show you that sometimes the interim period of the millenium is ignored, yes none of the earthly will escape the destruction on the day of the Lord , some will survive but have families and homes destroyed , some will experience the destruction of their souls at the second death at the end of the millenium when they are cast into the lake of fire, none of the ungodly will escape destruction.



Revelation 20 says that unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire 1000 years later than the first resurrection, so the concept of unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire at the return of Christ is incorrect.
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Please note that Matthew 13 is referring to the end of the world , not the end of the age. The millenium occurs on this world, and Revelation does teach us that the end of the world is at the end of the millenium when there is a new earth. Thus Matthew 13 supports my view that the unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire at the end of the 1000 years , 1000 years after the resurrection , and 1000 years after the second coming

But the first resurrection was Christ's. Salvation is found in the victory that was wrought over the grave. Without Christ's resurrection there is no hope. Our part in that triumph ensures our victory over eternal punishment (the second death).

treasureman
Nov 22nd 2008, 06:27 PM
At the seventh trump when Jesus returns to earth with His angels. all human beings will be turned in to spiritual bodies.
God Bless,
Spiritual Treasureman

DurbanDude
Nov 23rd 2008, 07:05 AM
But the first resurrection was Christ's. Salvation is found in the victory that was wrought over the grave. Without Christ's resurrection there is no hope. Our part in that triumph ensures our victory over eternal punishment (the second death).

In the context of Rev 20 , there is a resurrection of the saved and then a 1000 year period and then the resurrection of the unrighteous.

So calling Christ's resurrection the "first resurrection" after you have just read that "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" ..."this is the first resurrection" doesn't make any sense to me.


So far I have heard a few posts that seem to be hinting that for Christians our first resurrection was with Christ because we have eternal life. The bible makes it clear that we only receive that eternal life at salvation, which happens at different moments for each of us. The resurrection is an event that involves all the believers simultaneously. Thus there are 3 separate events:

1) Jesus crucifixion, and resurrection, which open the way of salvation
2) Our personal salvation, us choosing to believe, becoming believers, receiving our eternal destiny
3) The physical resurrection

All three events are separate , it would be incorrect to start combining any of these events.

jeffweeder
Nov 23rd 2008, 07:41 AM
Hi Dude

I understand your concerns here.
Isnt it true though that the second death cant hurt any member of his Church.
The born again experience, and faith in Christ, gives you the assurance now,today, that we wont be hurt by the second death.
He who partakes of the first ressurection will not be hurt by the second death = believe in the Lord Jesus Christ ,and though shall be saved.

Is there 2 ressurections?

Jn 5 says that an hour was coming...and now is, when the dead will hear and live---which i personally apply to the first ressurection.
Then Jesus says that an hr is coming ,when all in the grave will hear and come forth--some to eternal life ,some to misery.


Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth;
those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.]

Isnt Jesus suggesting that all who heard him, even as he spoke it would live...and be born again and seated in the heavenly realms.We have the down payment and have eternal life now, even though we groan for the day of the redemption of the body.

Thats why i think the 1000 years is that gap between a spiritual ressurection, when the Holy Spirit is recieved , giving you the guarentee and assurance of things to come,..and the eventual ressurection of the body the last day.

DurbanDude
Nov 23rd 2008, 08:36 AM
Isnt Jesus suggesting that all who heard him, even as he spoke it would live...and be born again and seated in the heavenly realms.We have the down payment and have eternal life now, even though we groan for the day of the redemption of the body.

Thats why i think the 1000 years is that gap between a spiritual ressurection, when the Holy Spirit is recieved , giving you the guarentee and assurance of things to come,..and the eventual ressurection of the body the last day.

Yes its true that we receive eternal life at salvation, we know this. Yet it is also true that there will be an actual resurrection, simultaneously for all believers. To start referring to salvation being a "spiritual resurrection" could be a technically accurate description, but in the light of discussions like these can add a lot of unnecessary confusion, just because of the terminology used. Yes we are spiritually renewed , made alive, born again at salvation but the term "resurrection" was never applied to the salvation experience in the bible.

To know what the 1000 years is about we just have to read Rev 20:
Rev 20 is simply saying that there is a resurrection of the righteous that includes the tribulation saints, and 1000 years later there is the resurrection of the unrighteous. During this 1000 year period the earth is populated and these nations will be deceived by Satan at the end of the 1000 year period.

I haven't yet read any alternative views of Rev 20, the concept of the millenium looks clear to me. We can't be in that period because it occurs after the physical resurrection which we have not experienced yet. No one can say that the resurrection referred to in Rev 20 is the "spiritual resurrection" , because it only happens after many have been martyred in the tribulation period yet we know that believers have been receiving their salvation ever since the crucifixion.

jeffweeder
Nov 23rd 2008, 09:18 AM
Hi DD

What do you think Jesus meant in Jn 5, when he said the time for the dead to hear his voice--now is.?

Leaving Rev 20 aside, the rest of the scriptures indicate to my little brain, that he comes on the last day to raise us...and judge them who have rejected his Gospel--jn 6 and jn 12.
He comes to render to everyone acording to his deeds...and God is patient now with everyone, not wanting any to perish until the fixed day he appointed, when Jesus comes to seperate the sheep and the goats.

Doesnt matter bro----he is coming regardless and im so happy about that FACT.

DurbanDude
Nov 23rd 2008, 10:11 AM
Hi DD

What do you think Jesus meant in Jn 5, when he said the time for the dead to hear his voice--now is.?.

5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice

DurbanDude
Nov 25th 2008, 06:28 AM
jeffweeder, the verse speaks for itself, in my opinion the verse is obvious. Jesus came to give life during His ministry, but then Jesus says "the hour is coming.."

The dead (the unbelievers) during Jesus ministry and during this current age can hear the voice of Jesus , but then an "hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice " when an actual physical resurrection will occur.

wpm
Nov 25th 2008, 02:27 PM
jeffweeder, the verse speaks for itself, in my opinion the verse is obvious. Jesus came to give life during His ministry, but then Jesus says "the hour is coming.."

The dead (the unbelievers) during Jesus ministry and during this current age can hear the voice of Jesus , but then an "hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice " when an actual physical resurrection will occur.

There must be 2 voices in your paradigm, whereas Scripture makes no such indication. The shout that Christ makes at His Coming causes a general resurrection. Anyway, the wicked and the righteous are judged together when He appears. Check every judgment passage.

Jesus said, in the parable of the wheat and tares, in Matthew 13:24-30, “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field … Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, (1) Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but (2) gather the wheat into my barn.” Verses 39-43 continues, “the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (1) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (2) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Two different peoples are in view in this narrative; one the wicked, who face the awful consuming wrath of God – being “burned in the fire,” the other the righteous who “shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” Moreover, the gathering together of the saints by the angels and the complete destruction of the wicked is notably located at “the end of the world.” The phrase “the end of the world” in this passage actually reads: the end of the aioonos or the end of the age. The elimination of the wicked therefore occurs when the Lord is revealed in all His glory at His Second Advent.

It is the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ when Christ “shall send forth his angels” to reap that one final all-consummating harvest. Both sheep and goats wheat and tares are collectively and wholly judged together at the end of this Gospel age. The wicked are then sentenced and cast “into a furnace of fire” where it says “there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” It is at this point, and for them alone that fear the Lord, shall “the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings” (Malachi 4:3) and cause the elect to be glorified and finally “shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

For the Premillennialist to suggest that a number of wicked survive this final separation and resulting destruction at the “end of the age” is to contradict the wording of this passage. To say that another additional evil age is then immediately introduced is wrong and in my opinion contrary to what Jesus is teaching. Plainly all the wicked are destroyed when Jesus comes.

Marc B
Nov 25th 2008, 03:31 PM
So what happens to everyone who was born from Adam to Noah? Show me scripture please.

wpm
Nov 25th 2008, 03:46 PM
So what happens to everyone who was born from Adam to Noah? Show me scripture please.

Man has always been viewed in one of two camps throughout time: "in Adam" or "in Christ." Those in Christ belong to the redeemed of all ages, those that are in Adam are part of this sin-cursed world. There are no other people or sub-groups outside of these two groups. When Christ comes, those in Christ are rescued, those in Adam are destroyed.

Marc B
Nov 25th 2008, 04:52 PM
So you are saying everyone from Adam to the flood with the exception of Noah and his family of course is writhing in agony in eternal hell fire to this day?
Where was Christ during that time in history?

wpm
Nov 25th 2008, 06:16 PM
So you are saying everyone from Adam to the flood with the exception of Noah and his family of course is writhing in agony in eternal hell fire to this day?
Where was Christ during that time in history?

Christ was always there.

The Lord outlined, in John 8:58, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Colossians 1:14-17 reveals, "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

Hebrews 2:10 says,“For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”

Revelation 4:11 says of Christ, “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”

Revelation 3:14 says, “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”

Hell?

We don't need to speculate on this. Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”

The passage continues, “Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”(Luke 16:19-31)

The just are clearly “comforted” here.

The lost are clearly “tormented” here.

quiet dove
Nov 25th 2008, 06:38 PM
Never mind, I misunderstood/misread the post I was responding to. :)

wpm
Nov 25th 2008, 07:39 PM
In the context of Rev 20 , there is a resurrection of the saved and then a 1000 year period and then the resurrection of the unrighteous.

So calling Christ's resurrection the "first resurrection" after you have just read that "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" ..."this is the first resurrection" doesn't make any sense to me.


So far I have heard a few posts that seem to be hinting that for Christians our first resurrection was with Christ because we have eternal life. The bible makes it clear that we only receive that eternal life at salvation, which happens at different moments for each of us. The resurrection is an event that involves all the believers simultaneously. Thus there are 3 separate events:

1) Jesus crucifixion, and resurrection, which open the way of salvation
2) Our personal salvation, us choosing to believe, becoming believers, receiving our eternal destiny
3) The physical resurrection

All three events are separate , it would be incorrect to start combining any of these events.

I disagree. Our spiritual resurrection is totally linked to Christ's physical resurrection. He is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:5 and 1 Corinthians 15:20). Without it there is no hope. There are many Scriptures that show this.

Romans 6:3-6 says,“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection (or) anastasis (Strong’s 386): Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

Romans 6:9-11 tells us: “Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once:but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Paul connects the physical death and resurrection of Christ to man’s salvation. We take part in His resurrection by first identifying ourselves with Him in being considered dead unto sin and alive unto God through Him. He equates his death to self and spiritual resurrection unto eternal life unto the transaction that Christ procured 2,000 years ago.

This reading confirm that the resurrection in view, and the “newness of life” that results, relates specifically to the Christian’s conversion and the resulting resurrection life, besides, the movement from a state of death to life whether physical or spiritual always involves resurrection. Through this spiritual resurrection, Christians are supernaturally made “alive from the dead” and become “alive unto God through Jesus Christ.” They consequently yield their “members as instruments of righteousness unto God,” in this life as a proof of their salvation.

Our participation in this hope is active and ongoing; it is not merely a future hope at His Coming. 1 Peter 1:3-5 confirms this, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

Romans 4:24-25 reiterates this great truth, saying, “if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”

DurbanDude
Nov 26th 2008, 09:17 AM
I disagree. Our spiritual resurrection is totally linked to Christ's physical resurrection. He is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:5 and 1 Corinthians 15:20). Without it there is no hope. There are many Scriptures that show this.

Romans 6:3-6 says,“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection (or) anastasis (Strong’s 386): Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

Romans 6:9-11 tells us: “Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once:but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Paul connects the physical death and resurrection of Christ to man’s salvation. We take part in His resurrection by first identifying ourselves with Him in being considered dead unto sin and alive unto God through Him. He equates his death to self and spiritual resurrection unto eternal life unto the transaction that Christ procured 2,000 years ago.

This reading confirm that the resurrection in view, and the “newness of life” that results, relates specifically to the Christian’s conversion and the resulting resurrection life, besides, the movement from a state of death to life whether physical or spiritual always involves resurrection. Through this spiritual resurrection, Christians are supernaturally made “alive from the dead” and become “alive unto God through Jesus Christ.” They consequently yield their “members as instruments of righteousness unto God,” in this life as a proof of their salvation.

Our participation in this hope is active and ongoing; it is not merely a future hope at His Coming. 1 Peter 1:3-5 confirms this, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

Romans 4:24-25 reiterates this great truth, saying, “if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”


This is the answer I gave jeffweeder earlier in this thread:

Yes its true that we receive eternal life at salvation, we know this. Yet it is also true that there will be an actual resurrection, simultaneously for all believers. To start referring to salvation being a "spiritual resurrection" could be a technically accurate description, but in the light of discussions like these can add a lot of unnecessary confusion, just because of the terminology used. Yes we are spiritually renewed , made alive, born again at salvation but the term "resurrection" was never applied to the salvation experience in the bible.

So I have already covered your point, of course we are renewed at salvation, of course this salvation relates to the resurrection of Jesus. Of course the bible refers to Jesus resurrection. But we shouldn't confuse our spiritual renewal with the physical resurrection described often in the bible as a seperate event, and described as the "first resurrection"

DurbanDude
Nov 26th 2008, 09:45 AM
There must be 2 voices in your paradigm, whereas Scripture makes no such indication. The shout that Christ makes at His Coming causes a general resurrection. Anyway, the wicked and the righteous are judged together when He appears. Check every judgment passage.

I covered this in an earlier post concerning progressive fulfilment. Without an understanding of progressive fulfilment of prophecy we could get Jews arguing from Isaiah in the same way you are arguing, and "proving" to us that the Messiah of Isaiah had to cause the physical rebuilding of Israel and therefore Jesus isn't their Messiah.

In Matthew 24 Jesus predicts the 70 AD fall of Jerusalem and then says that this will be a time of tribulation. If you don't understand progressive fulfilment you will end up trying to place all these amazing events concerning false christs etc into the 70 AD period:

24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and

This same concept of progressive fulfilment can explain many other apparent contradictions when any of us can easily prove eachother wrong, because it is obvious that symbolism is stretched to make verses fit, or there are unexplained apparent contradictions in the bible.

wpm
Nov 26th 2008, 05:31 PM
I covered this in an earlier post concerning progressive fulfilment. Without an understanding of progressive fulfilment of prophecy we could get Jews arguing from Isaiah in the same way you are arguing, and "proving" to us that the Messiah of Isaiah had to cause the physical rebuilding of Israel and therefore Jesus isn't their Messiah.

In Matthew 24 Jesus predicts the 70 AD fall of Jerusalem and then says that this will be a time of tribulation. If you don't understand progressive fulfilment you will end up trying to place all these amazing events concerning false christs etc into the 70 AD period:

24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and

This same concept of progressive fulfilment can explain many other apparent contradictions when any of us can easily prove eachother wrong, because it is obvious that symbolism is stretched to make verses fit, or there are unexplained apparent contradictions in the bible.

But there is no contradiction. Maybe with the Premil paradigm but not with Scripture. There needs to be a general resurrection because there is a general judgment. This, in my opinion, is where Premil doesn't add up. The saints and sinners are before the same throne at the same time. How do they get there if they are not raised together?

I believe there is one physical resurrection day that sees one all-encompassing raising of mankind. However, within that one resurrection there are two distinct categories of rising embodied: (1) unto “life,” and (2) unto “damnation.” Notwithstanding, there is an undoubted order to the general resurrection; the dead in Christ will rise first, etc.

It is at this great concluding event that both the righteous and the wicked will be raised to face the great final judgment. Notwithstanding, there are two aspects to the one all-consummating resurrection day. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

There is absolutely no mention here (or anywhere else) of a 1,000yrs gap between the raising of the righteous and that of the wicked. It simply isn't there. One would have to insert it in.

This reading expressly speaks of a time in history when the dead (both good and evil) “shall hear his (Christ’s) voice, and shall come forth.” Notwithstanding, this perfectly correlates with every explicit reference to the judgment in Scripture that shows both the righteous and wicked being brought to account at the same time. Therefore, both parties must of necessity be raised around the same time to fulfil such. The reading before us substantiates this requirement in the most explicit language possible.

There is one physical resurrection day in which there are two types of raising, (1) unto life, (2) unto damnation. Acts 24:15 says, “there shall be a resurrection of the dead (singular), both of the just and unjust.”

This verse speaks of a singular “resurrection of the dead” not multiple resurrections (plural) of the dead as the Premillennialist would try and intimate. The fact that Paul differentiates between the wicked and the righteous in no way proves that these are two separate resurrections coming at the end of two separate ages split by 1,000 years+ of history (filled with all the produce of the curse – sin, death and corruption). No, it simply demonstrates that there are two types of resurrection in the one final resurrection of the dead at the end. In fact, for Premils to insist on their concept is to force something into the passage that doesn’t truly exist. Scripture constantly distinguishes between the wicked and the righteous even though they are found participating in the same event at the same time. Why would anyone think it strange that the Holy Spirit would identify the two different parties that take part in the general “resurrection of the dead”? After all, it is a normal biblical procedure to distinguish between these two conflicting camps. Although to suggest that the identifying of these two distinct parties indicates two separate events at two separate times is illogical.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:42, “The queen of the south shall rise up (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.” The righteous Old Testament Gentile saint – the queen of the south – is raised at the same time as the wicked Pharisees of Christ’s day to stand before the same judgment seat of Christ.

This is further impressed in the parallel portion in Luke 11:31, only with an additional example, saying, “The queen of the south shall rise up (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh shall rise up (or) anistemi (Strong’s 450) in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.”

Here, the two main words used throughout the New Testament for resurrection are applied to the general resurrection that occurs on Judgment Day when the Old Testament time saints and wicked join the New Testament saints and wicked at the judgment. Remember the queen of the south and Nineveh are presented as Old Testament Gentile saints that will “rise up in the judgment with” the wicked unbelieving Jews of Christ’s day. There is no prolonged parenthesis period separating the resurrection of the wicked dead and the resurrection of the righteous dead. They both “rise up” at the same time. The Old Testament Gentile city of Nineveh is shown to “rise up in the judgment with” (or meta) the religious Jewish world of Christ’s day and “condemn it.” The Greek word meta (3326) is described in Strong’s concordance as “a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; ‘amid’.”

Amils therefore maintain that there is one general resurrection, of the just and unjust, at the second advent of Christ. The righteous then inherit the earth in an eternal state. Premils understanding of Revelation 20 conflict with numerous Scripture. Daniel 12:2 teaches a general resurrection at the end of the tribulation. This is in order for a general judgment – sheep/goats, wheat/tares before the same throne at the same time.

Daniel 12:1-3 reveals, “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

This reading shows a general resurrection involving two types of people – the righteous and the wicked; one group rises "to everlasting life" the other to "everlasting contempt." The fact that we see a clear description of the general resurrection of the righteous and the wicked tells us that this is a tribulation that occurs prior to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This supposition is confirmed by the very next verse, which says, “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end.”

John146
Nov 26th 2008, 07:26 PM
Hmm? Looks like a consistent theme here ...avoiding the opening post :hmm:, joking.Hardy har har :rolleyes: ;) I would hope you know my posting style well enough by now that I don't purposely avoid anything. If my view can't hold up to scrutiny and challenges, I will say so. But commenting on those scriptures takes time and thought that I didn't have. Until now. Although, I have commented on a couple of them before. But, anyway...


So your view on those verses is highly debatable? If those verses are not millenial according to you, where do they fit in?No, I was saying the interpretation of those verses is highly debatable because while you see them as referring to a time following the second coming of Christ, the fact is that those passages do not even refer to the second coming of Christ at all. Whereas the clearer scriptures that I choose to build a doctrinal foundation upon clearly do refer to the second coming of Christ and the events surrounding it.


Interesting thatyou didn't comment on my whole point of progressive fulfilment , I wonder if you missed my point.I commented on it before. It's not a valid one. I believe that's a weak way of trying to explain away clear scriptures like John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 24-25, 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:3-13 and so on.


I definitely agree that the day of the Lord arrives when Christ arrives, no argument there. I already explained why some verses appear to contradict Revelation 20 , sometimes the bible says events are together when really they are thousands of years apart. I listed four separate events to prove my point. There are many verses like this in the bible , about various different events. We can debate each verse if you like, at least some of them will be obvious to you that prophecies are progressively fulfilled. You still haven't given me your version of Rev 20 , and Rev 20 contradicts your view on 2 Peter 3:10-12. I've explained why some verses seem to contradict eachother, yet I haven't heard your explanation on how Rev 20 fits into 2 Peter 3:10-12 or Matt 24 ... or Matt 13.I'm amazed that you don't already know how amils interpret those verses. But first I will comment on the passages you brought up earlier before I get to those and how they relate to Revelation 20. For now, I will just say that I agree with Paul's (wpm's) understanding of the first resurrection as he already described it to you.

DurbanDude
Nov 26th 2008, 07:28 PM
But there is no contradiction. Maybe with the Premil paradigm but not with Scripture. There needs to be a general resurrection because there is a general judgment. This, in my opinion, is where Premil doesn't add up. The saints and sinners are before the same throne at the same time. How do they get there if they are not raised together?


wpm,

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


I really challenge you to think again what you are saying compared to Revelation 20.

This verse divides the dead into 2 categories , those blessed ones and THE REST OF THE DEAD. You seem to be saying that all the righteous and the unrighteous are resurrected at one resurrection at the end of the millenium. Yet you also seem to be saying that the righteous participate in this particular first resurrection before the millenium as well.

The bible however makes the two groups mutually exclusive by the use of the phrase "and the rest of the dead".

John146
Nov 26th 2008, 08:24 PM
During the time that Jesus is to rule here on earth , known by pre-mills as the millenium , there seem to be mortals who did not receive their immortal resurrection bodies. I believe these are the ungodly survivors of the tribulation. I haven't researched every possible verse here , but listed some that I believe support this view. I believe that every ungodly person will experience some destruction on the Day of The Lord, all participating in the war in Israel will die, there will be destruction of homes, destruction of families, even their cities will be destroyed, but some will still survive.

DISCUSSION: What are your objections to this, if any, or what are your own views?

REV 21:25 And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day (for there shall be no night there):
REV 21:26 and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it:
REV 21:27 and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb's book of life.

REV 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right `to come' to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
REV 22:15 Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.

Often pre-tribbers divide believers into pre-trib (raptured) believers and then tribulation saints, believing the tribulation saints are the mortal survivors to go into the millenium , however we just see two divisions here , those that can enter the city and the ungodly who cannot.I'm going to comment on the scriptures you listed now, just as I said I would when I had time. I hope you will return the favor with the scriptures I posted rather than just using the progressive fulfillment answer. I'd appreciate if you showed me specifically how those scriptures I posted fit into the premil paradigm.

Anyway, regarding the passages from Rev 21 and 22. First of all, what is talked about there follows the thousand years and the judgment. Those chapters speak of the time when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. There will be no more death at that time (Rev 21:4). So, how could there be mortals on the new earth? So, how you can relate those verses to a supposed earthly millenial kingdom that precedes the judgment is beyond me. You seem to assume that because it talks about who cannot enter the city that it means there are those who are on the outside of the city looking in but can't come in. But Rev 20 makes it clear where those people are: in the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:31-46 confirms that when Jesus comes all people will be gathered before Him and believers and unbelievers will be separated. Believers will inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34). This is the kingdom of the Father (Matt 13:43). The kingdom which no flesh and blood will inherit (1 Cor 15:50). Therefore, only believers with changed immortal bodies will inherit the kingdom of the Father while unbelievers will be cast into the everlasting lake of fire (Matt 25:41, Matt 13:42, Matt 13:50, Rev 20:15).



Here we see a millenium scenario , where God dwells in Israel:
ZECH 8:3 Thus saith Jehovah: I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called The city of truth; and the mountain of Jehovah of hosts, The holy mountain.
ZECH 8:4 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
ZECH 8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
ZECH 8:6 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith Jehovah of hosts.

ZECH 8:20 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: `It shall' yet `come to pass', that there shall come peoples, and the inhabitants of many cities;
ZECH 8:21 and the inhabitants of one `city' shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to entreat the favor of Jehovah, and to seek Jehovah of hosts: I will go also.
ZECH 8:22 Yea, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek Jehovah of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of Jehovah.
ZECH 8:23 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days `it shall come to pass', that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.

Who do you think are the nations that dwell on earth during the millenium but don't really know God , aren't blessed by God so that they tend to see the Jews as having a special blessing? Why are these Jews mortal (old men in the streets) when the first resurrection has already occurred?Wow. You are certainly reading a lot into these texts. Where is the mention of the second coming of Christ if this time period supposedly immediately follows His second coming? It's not there. I believe those texts are referring to the first coming of Christ and to the day of Pentecost. Compare Zech 8:20-23 to this:

Acts 2
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


If you read Zechariah 14, the context is millenial:
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

These seem to be survivors who are still sometimes disobedient to God (ungodly survivors) , otherwise why would God threaten them with no rain if there is disobedience?Why would people need to keep OT rituals and observe OT festivals in the future. I believe that passage is speaking about this:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

I believe to spiritually keep the feast of tabernacles is to put one's faith and trust in Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit as a result of doing so.

Why would people be expected to go up to earthly Jerusalem to worship when Jesus said this:

John 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Here is some commentary on the book of Zechariah, including chapter 14, that David Taylor gave last year that I thought was excellent and I think you should take a look: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=60488&


Isaiah 65:
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Who are these accursed people who don't live beyond 100 years while living during a period of great blessing? If they are accursed surely they are the ungodly? Where does it say that the accursed die? Those who are in the lake of fire will be accursed. They will have already experienced the second death, so how would they die again? Notice that it speaks about "the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.". So, any apparent mention of death has to be symbolic unless you think that people will die and no one will mourn for them. The sinner will be accursed in the lake of fire for not only 100 years but for eternity. I believe that is the point being made. Whether 100 years or 100,000 years has gone by in eternity it doesn't matter. Believers will still be like children (there will be no aging then, of course) while unbelievers will still be accursed.

There is only going to be one new heaven and new earth, so I believe Isaiah 65:17-25 and Rev 21:1-8 must agree. Premil tries to solve the apparent contradiction of one saying there would be death on the new earth and one saying there will not be death on the new earth by saying they are not the same new heaven and new earth or that the new heaven and new earth take a thousand years to be formed. I believe that is a far less satisfactory explanation than our view that Isaiah was using hyperbole and symbolism to describe the new earth while John was more straightforward.

Is your understanding that the new heavens and new earth first appear at Christ's second coming? If so, does that mean the new heavens and new earth that John saw had already been in existence for a thousand years? If so, why doesn't he say that? He says "I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away". Therefore, he is saying that the new heavens and new earth appear immediately following and as a result of the first heaven and first earth passing away.

One other thing. In the age to come, there will be no more marriage and therefore there will be no more childbearing. And there will be no more death. Jesus returns at the end of this age (Matt 24) and He will usher in the eternal age to come at that time.

Luke 20
34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Passages like this and the ones where Jesus speaks of "this world (age) and the world (age) to come" shows to me that Jesus knew nothing about an intermediate millennial age between this temporal age we are in and the eternal age when there will be no more marriage and no more death.

Also, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50) and yet you have flesh and blood somehow inheriting the kingdom of God when Christ returns. That can't be. There will be no mortal survivors when Christ returns.



Isaiah
2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more

Who are these people who don't know the ways of God and want to go to Israel to learn? Who are the nations that will be rebuked and who beat their swords into plowshares?This is referring to the heavenly Zion. The mountain of the Lord is His spiritual kingdom which we are already a part of. We have been translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13). When we are saved and born again we "are not come unto the mount that might be touched", but are "come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." (Heb 12:22-24).

And, once again, where is the reference to the second coming of Christ in this passage? If you are going to insist that these passages refer to a time period that follows the second coming of Christ then why the absence of any mention of the second coming of Christ in these passages?

That passage is not speaking of every person in the world someday giving up war but is only speaking of believers.

I believe we should set a foundation on the passages that clearly do refer to the second coming of Christ and the events surrounding it and go from there rather than establishing a foundation upon these more obscure passages that don't even contain any specific mention of the second coming of Christ or the end of the age before eternity is ushered in.

Eric

DurbanDude
Nov 26th 2008, 08:25 PM
Hardy har har :rolleyes: ;) I would hope you know my posting style well enough by now that I don't purposely avoid anything. If my view can't hold up to scrutiny and challenges, I will say so. But commenting on those scriptures takes time and thought that I didn't have. Until now. Although, I have commented on a couple of them before. But, anyway...
.
Ok , thanks for making the time.



No, I was saying the interpretation of those verses is highly debatable because while you see them as referring to a time following the second coming of Christ, the fact is that those passages do not even refer to the second coming of Christ at all. Whereas the clearer scriptures that I choose to build a doctrinal foundation upon clearly do refer to the second coming of Christ and the events surrounding it.
.

Those verses have to fit into a period, and there has to be a good reason for placing them there. Believe me , pre-mills don't just place them in the millenium just to increase the number of verses to support a millenium, . They are verses that involve a period of peace that has not existed in history and is not predicted to exist until the Messiah himself rules earth as these Old Testament verses so clearly predict. Only over-spiritualisation would ever place them in the current period.






I commented on it before. It's not a valid one. I believe that's a weak way of trying to explain away clear scriptures like John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 24-25, 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:3-13 and so on.
.

Progressive fulfilment is the only way to interpret many verses, I showed that already, so how can that be weak??


I'm amazed that you don't already know how amils interpret those verses. But first I will comment on the passages you brought up earlier before I get to those and how they relate to Revelation 20. For now, I will just say that I agree with Paul's (wpm's) understanding of the first resurrection as he already described it to you.

Still learning , be patient with me , I'm slow :confused , but definitely getting there.

wpm
Nov 26th 2008, 08:57 PM
wpm,

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


I really challenge you to think again what you are saying compared to Revelation 20.

This verse divides the dead into 2 categories , those blessed ones and THE REST OF THE DEAD. You seem to be saying that all the righteous and the unrighteous are resurrected at one resurrection at the end of the millenium. Yet you also seem to be saying that the righteous participate in this particular first resurrection before the millenium as well.

The bible however makes the two groups mutually exclusive by the use of the phrase "and the rest of the dead".

The first thing I am seeing is that you fail to address any other passage I present. This in my view is a Premil habit. They explain the whole end-time events in the light of their opinion of Rev 20. Whilst I am more than happy to address this passage as I feel it reinforces the Amil belief it is surely not good biblical hermeneutics. We should use the whole gamut of clear and explicit Scripture that shows the Coming of the Lord to be climactic. Men make Revelation say anything. Most error I believe originates from men building their theology on their view of parts of Revelation. Plainly these general resurrection/judgment passages that I showed (and there are countless more), I contend, disallow the Premil belief. So the retort is, "But Rev 20 ..." The whole argument depends on one's view of the much-debated Rev 20 rather than the wealth of explicit Scripture that teaches that the Coming of Christ is the end. I find this totally unsatisfactory from an exegetical perspective.

What you are referring to in Rev 20 is the dead in Christ in heaven now and the dead in hell. This 2 judgments theory simply can't even be found in Rev 20. Where is it? Where is the corroboration for it? Where in Scripture insinuates that all men are not judged together?

John146
Nov 26th 2008, 09:16 PM
Those verses have to fit into a period, and there has to be a good reason for placing them there. Believe me , pre-mills don't just place them in the millenium just to increase the number of verses to support a millenium, . They are verses that involve a period of peace that has not existed in history and is not predicted to exist until the Messiah himself rules earth as these Old Testament verses so clearly predict. Only over-spiritualisation would ever place them in the current period.It has nothing to do with over-spiritualization but instead has to do with accepting the NT explanations of those scriptures instead of forcing them into a supposed future millennial earthly kingdom.


Progressive fulfillment is the only way to interpret many verses, I showed that already, so how can that be weak??Because you haven't bothered showing specifically how those passages fit into your paradigm. Just saying "progressive fulfillment" is completely unsatisfactory without offering any specific explanation for how those passages fit into your paradigm. Progressive fulfillment is not an adequate explanation for making the end of the age of Matthew 13 a different end of the age from Matthew 24. I believe that is explained better as convenient interpretation rather than progressive fulfillment.

third hero
Nov 27th 2008, 04:47 AM
Because you haven't bothered showing specifically how those passages fit into your paradigm. Just saying "progressive fulfillment" is completely unsatisfactory without offering any specific explanation for how those passages fit into your paradigm. Progressive fulfillment is not an adequate explanation for making the end of the age of Matthew 13 a different end of the age from Matthew 24. I believe that is explained better as convenient interpretation rather than progressive fulfillment.

"Paradigm"? Seriously, having scripture fit into a certain POV is exactly why I do not agree with the Amil model. I believe in letting the scripture and the definitions that have been included in the scriptures themselves, fity themselves into a paradigm. The paradigm that scriptures like Zechariah 14, Revelation 19-20, and Matthew 24 fit into is the post-trib premil POV. We have not said that there will be 1000 years between resurrections is the fact that it SAYS so in Revelation 20:4-6. We didn't infuse the 1000 years into those scriptures. They clearly say that themselves, without us trying to fit them into a paradigm.

In my opinion, fitting scripture into one's own POV is the greatest flaw in any discipline, including the Amil paradigm. Let scripture speak for itself.

DurbanDude
Nov 27th 2008, 06:02 AM
The first thing I am seeing is that you fail to address any other passage I present. This in my view is a Premil habit. They explain the whole end-time events in the light of their opinion of Rev 20. Whilst I am more than happy to address this passage as I feel it reinforces the Amil belief it is surely not good biblical hermeneutics. We should use the whole gamut of clear and explicit Scripture that shows the Coming of the Lord to be climactic. Men make Revelation say anything. Most error I believe originates from men building their theology on their view of parts of Revelation. Plainly these general resurrection/judgment passages that I showed (and there are countless more), I contend, disallow the Premil belief. So the retort is, "But Rev 20 ..." The whole argument depends on one's view of the much-debated Rev 20 rather than the wealth of explicit Scripture that teaches that the Coming of Christ is the end. I find this totally unsatisfactory from an exegetical perspective.

What you are referring to in Rev 20 is the dead in Christ in heaven now and the dead in hell. This 2 judgments theory simply can't even be found in Rev 20. Where is it? Where is the corroboration for it? Where in Scripture insinuates that all men are not judged together?


Rev 20 is concerning 2 resurrections,as far as I know we haven't yet discussed judgments. You have a 2 resurrections theory , and so do I. We have to have such a theory because Rev 20 mentions two resurrections.

Rev 20 gives more detail than a lot of verses about the end. Because of the increased clarity we gain from Rev 20 , we can understand other verses better which do not give the full detail.

I did'nt understand your answer, as far as I am concerned your view doesn't fit Rev 20 and yet should fit. My concerns were clear, both resurrections cannot apply to the righteous , but you seem to be saying the first resurrection applies to the righteous and the post-millenial resurrection applies to the righteous (as well as the unrighteous). you seem to be frustrated at my focus on Revelation , the only reason that I'm focussing on Revelation is because that's where I feel your theory on the resurrection falls short.

wpm
Nov 27th 2008, 06:40 AM
Rev 20 is concerning 2 resurrections,as far as I know we haven't yet discussed judgments. You have a 2 resurrections theory , and so do I. We have to have one because Rev 20 mentions two resurrections.

Rev 20 gives more detail than a lot of verses about the end. Because of the increased clarity we gain from Rev 20 , we can understand other verses better which do not give the full detail.

I did'nt understand your answer, as far as I am concerned your view doesn't fit Rev 20 and yet should fit. My concerns were clear, both resurrections cannot apply to the righteous , but you seem to be saying the first resurrection applies to the righteous and the post-millenial resurrection applies to the righteous (as well as the unrighteous). you seem to be frustrated at my focus on Revelation , the only reason that I'm focussing on Revelation is because that's where I feel your theory on the resurrection falls short.

At least you concede Genesis to Jude is not problematic to Amil. ;)

That just leaves Revelation to exegete. Let us go through the detail of Rev 20 (or the Book of Revelation) and see whose school of thought is supported by other Scripture.

jeffweeder
Nov 27th 2008, 06:43 AM
Are you kidding me? Tell me, what is the 1000 years?

The thousand years is about those who partake of salvation, so the judgement(second death ) cant hurt them...

tell me, what do we need to do to keep us safe from the judgement- (second death?)
Do we need to be risen from the dead...or..
We believe on the Lord Jesus Christ ?
Are you about to tell me that you dont have the assurance that Christs death and his grace is not sufficient for you?----that you have already passed from death to life.
Do you believe brother that Christ, now, has given you his peace, that you wont be harmed by the second death.?
Do you have that confidence now, or do you have to wait to see if you are part of a future first ressurection, to know that.



You have a 2 resurrections theory , and so do I. We have to have one because Rev 20 mentions two resurrections.

Did not Jesus allude to 2 ressurections in Jn 5?

I think he did, but both are not a ressurection of the body..

He said the hour .."NOW IS" when the dead would hear....i was dead, even though i breath, but i heard, and i became alive in Christ as a new born.--I have the Guarentee of this first ressurection,that when i come forth from the grave, i will not see the second death....but those who do not partake of this ressurecting born again experience, will see it...
he will raise us the last day, but this last day will be catastrophic for those who reject the gospel. Gods patience is about to come to an end.

DurbanDude
Nov 27th 2008, 07:26 AM
The thousand years is about those who partake of salvation, so the judgement(second death ) cant hurt them...

tell me, what do we need to do to keep us safe from the judgement- (second death?)
Do we need to be risen from the dead...or..
We believe on the Lord Jesus Christ ?
Are you about to tell me that you dont have the assurance that Christs death and his grace is not sufficient for you?----that you have already passed from death to life.
Do you believe brother that Christ, now, has given you his peace, that you wont be harmed by the second death.?
Do you have that confidence now, or do you have to wait to see if you are part of a future first ressurection, to know that.




Did not Jesus allude to 2 ressurections in Jn 5?

I think he did, but both are not a ressurection of the body..

He said the hour .."NOW IS" when the dead would hear....i was dead, even though i breath, but i heard, and i became alive in Christ as a new born.--I have the Guarentee of this first ressurection,that when i come forth from the grave, i will not see the second death....but those who do not partake of this ressurecting born again experience, will see it...
he will raise us the last day, but this last day will be catastrophic for those who reject the gospel. Gods patience is about to come to an end.

Sure, Jesus was bringing salvation to the Jews that would result in their spiritual renewal and resurrection, we can agree on that. But this does not explain the two mutually exclusive resurrections of Rev 20, the resurrection of the blessed and the resurrection of "THE REST".

DurbanDude
Nov 27th 2008, 07:36 AM
At least you concede Genesis to Jude is not problematic to Amil. ;)

:o Don't remember conceding anything like this :hmm:

This thread shows that we are debating many OT verses as well. Only the 2 resurrections debate currently centres on Rev 20.

.

jeffweeder
Nov 27th 2008, 07:51 AM
Hi brother.

What i see in Jn 5 is Jesus seperating the time ----from when the dead (like me) hear the word--- which back in Jesus day, refered to the time that "now is"---- and a time that all would actually come out of the grave the last day.
Those that heard his word back then, and throughout the Gospel era, would be safe and not rise to a ressurection of Judgement....because we heard his voice and believed the testamony of the Gospel.


2thess 1
This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

DurbanDude
Nov 27th 2008, 10:16 AM
I commented on it before. It's not a valid one. I believe that's a weak way of trying to explain away clear scriptures like John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 24-25, 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:3-13 and so on.

To both wpm and john146, I agree that I must take the time to look into those verses that you are using to support your view. I'll focus on the verses listed above by john146.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I don't believe Jesus was meaning a literal 60 minutes here, He is referring to a time period when there would be a resurrection of the righteous and a resurrection of the unrighteous. Notice that He does seperate them. The fact that I believe Rev 20 lists these two resurrections 1000 years apart does not contradict this listing of events at the end times.

Matt 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth
If you read Rev 20, the resurrection of the unrighteous who are cast into the fire occurs at the end of the 1000 years. I therefore believe these are post-millenium verses because they describe being cast into the fire. The same logic applies to Matthew 13:36-43. Note that no resurrection of the righteous is mentioned here, and the righteous are left behind here and the ungodly are taken. This fits in with the description of the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years, but DOES NOT fit in with the numerous references to the gathering of the elect in the clouds, where the ungodly are left behind. This is confirmation of two seperate events.

Matthew 24 is referring to the resurrection of the righteous which occurs at the second coming. Here the elect are gathered and the ungodly left behind. There is weeping and gnashing of teeth for the unrighteous, but in the context it is not clear if this will be as a result of them being excluded from the full oneness of God and the gathering of the elect, or if this weeping relates to their eventual destiny of the lake of fire at the end of the millenium. This weeping could also relate to the actual second coming moment before any judgments and resurrection of the unrighteous:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 25 has some parables relating to the end-times. I believe these are parables to show that we must be ready and to show the eventual destiny of the righteous and the unrighteous. The parable of the sheep and the goats doesn't necessarily mean that the destiny of the goats occurs at the same time as their separation from the sheep, but is a parable to show what their destiny is.


1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ......................................

5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape
This mentions the resurrection of the righteous yet there is no mention of the resurrection of the unrighteous. Here there is a gathering of the church/brethren in the clouds, and no mention of a gathering of the "tares" and the lake of fire.
I believe there will be wholesale destruction across earth at the second coming, it is a day of wrath that will affect every one of the ungodly, no-one will escape. They will lose families and homes and most will lose their lives, every city will be destroyed and the landscape will be changed forever. But to conclude that no-one will live , when the only description of this destruction involves a comparison to a woman travailing with child (great pain that ends) is reading too much into it.

1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
The same concept applies here. There is vengeance (ref Revelation bowls of wrath , earthquake etc) This does not specify when their eventual judgement occurs, we know only that they will be eternally separated from the presence of the Lord and His glory. Theses verses do not indicate if there is immediate casting into the lake of fire.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men
Here is where I apply the principle of progressive fulfilment. This chapter speaks of the day of the Lord as the day that the whole earth is destroyed. Because there are many other verses that refer to a period of peace on the current earth under the reign of Christ starting from the day of the Lord, (and Rev 20 that mentions the 1000 year period on earth that starts with the first resurrection) I understand this prophecy to be progressively fulfilled , firstly at the second coming , and then 1000 years later.

DurbanDude
Nov 27th 2008, 12:47 PM
Anyway, regarding the passages from Rev 21 and 22. First of all, what is talked about there follows the thousand years and the judgment. Those chapters speak of the time when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. There will be no more death at that time (Rev 21:4). So, how could there be mortals on the new earth? So, how you can relate those verses to a supposed earthly millenial kingdom that precedes the judgment is beyond me. You seem to assume that because it talks about who cannot enter the city that it means there are those who are on the outside of the city looking in but can't come in. But Rev 20 makes it clear where those people are: in the lake of fire.

I have to break this up into various posts because I haven't got the time to deal with this all at once.

The mortals are in the millenium age before the New earth, I've never said that they live on the New Earth. Some verses in the OT are referring to the millenium stage on earth, some to the post-millenium stage. The context is normally clear which is which. I agree that the New Jerusalem in the context of Revelation 21 and 22 is post-millenium, so we are in agreement here.



Matthew 25:31-46 confirms that when Jesus comes all people will be gathered before Him and believers and unbelievers will be separated. Believers will inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34). This is the kingdom of the Father (Matt 13:43). The kingdom which no flesh and blood will inherit (1 Cor 15:50). Therefore, only believers with changed immortal bodies will inherit the kingdom of the Father while unbelievers will be cast into the everlasting lake of fire (Matt 25:41, Matt 13:42, Matt 13:50, Rev 20:15).


I already discussed these verses in an earlier post today.

DurbanDude
Nov 27th 2008, 01:03 PM
Wow. You are certainly reading a lot into these texts. Where is the mention of the second coming of Christ if this time period supposedly immediately follows His second coming? It's not there. I believe those texts are referring to the first coming of Christ and to the day of Pentecost. Compare Zech 8:20-23 to this:

Acts 2
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. .

I personally see nothing of Zechariah 8 in these New Testament verses that you are trying to compare with Zechariah 8

8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
8:4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.


8:21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
8:22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Nothing like these verses has happened to Jews or "spiritual Jews" (christians) in a literal way or in a spiritual way , both before or since the crucifixion. Any reader of these posts can decide for themselves whether your explanation of Zechariah fits in any way.

Jerusalem hasn't been a "city of truth" since the crucifixion, but was destroyed for its lack of accepting the truth. And the current Jerusalem is also not renowned for its holiness, and there is no sign of God dwelling in Jerusalem above other cities at the moment.

DurbanDude
Nov 27th 2008, 01:27 PM
Why would people need to keep OT rituals and observe OT festivals in the future. I believe that passage is speaking about this:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

I believe to spiritually keep the feast of tabernacles is to put one's faith and trust in Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit as a result of doing so.

Why would people be expected to go up to earthly Jerusalem to worship when Jesus said this:

John 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


I disagree with this as complete over-spiritualisation of very clear verses concerning the day of the Lord , and the nations, and the survivors, behold Zechariah 14:

Zech 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Let the reader of this debate decide for themselves if there is still going to be a literal outworking of these verses , or if they were fulfilled in a spiritual way as john146 says. john146 I just disagree with the way you interpret the bible, it seems to be stretching interpretations beyond their original meaning.

If literal , then when Jesus stands on the Mount of Olives before Jerusalem, He will bring safety to Jerusalem and there will be people who are left of the nations who will have to go to Jerusalem every year, otherwise there will be no rain.

The literal translation definitely involves survivors after Jesus starts His literal reign in Jerusalem.

DurbanDude
Nov 27th 2008, 01:54 PM
Where does it say that the accursed die? Those who are in the lake of fire will be accursed. They will have already experienced the second death, so how would they die again? Notice that it speaks about "the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.". So, any apparent mention of death has to be symbolic unless you think that people will die and no one will mourn for them. The sinner will be accursed in the lake of fire for not only 100 years but for eternity. I believe that is the point being made. Whether 100 years or 100,000 years has gone by in eternity it doesn't matter. Believers will still be like children (there will be no aging then, of course) while unbelievers will still be accursed.

There is only going to be one new heaven and new earth, so I believe Isaiah 65:17-25 and Rev 21:1-8 must agree. Premil tries to solve the apparent contradiction of one saying there would be death on the new earth and one saying there will not be death on the new earth by saying they are not the same new heaven and new earth or that the new heaven and new earth take a thousand years to be formed. I believe that is a far less satisfactory explanation than our view that Isaiah was using hyperbole and symbolism to describe the new earth while John was more straightforward.

Is your understanding that the new heavens and new earth first appear at Christ's second coming? If so, does that mean the new heavens and new earth that John saw had already been in existence for a thousand years? If so, why doesn't he say that? He says "I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away". Therefore, he is saying that the new heavens and new earth appear immediately following and as a result of the first heaven and first earth passing away.
For the record, I believe that the New Earth occurs at the end of the millenium as the bible describes, there is no dispute there.

I know that Revelation isn't always consecutive, but I believe from Chapter19 it is. There is a great war (Chapter 19), then the first resurrection followed by 1000 years followed by the final resurrection (Chapter 20) followed by the New Earth and New Heaven (chapter 21). It is simply described and that is the wayI believe it.

NIV Isaiah 65:

20 "Never again will there be in it
infants who live but a few days,
or older people who do not live out their years;
those who die at a hundred
will be thought mere youths;
those who fail to reach [a (http://www.ibs.org/bible/verse/?tniv=yes&q=Isa 65#fen-TNIV-18921a)] a hundred
will be considered accursed.


The NIV explains it more clearly, but the meaning is there in the KJV, I just don't think you analysed the context clearly.

Even Isaiah 65:22 implies long life but mortality describing "the days of a tree" , instead of eternal life.
65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

I believe that the reference to the new heavens and the new earth in verse 17 is just an aside about the far future, the rest is referring to the millenium.

wpm
Nov 27th 2008, 05:30 PM
I disagree with this as complete over-spiritualisation of very clear verses concerning the day of the Lord , and the nations, and the survivors, behold Zechariah 14:

Zech 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Let the reader of this debate decide for themselves if there is still going to be a literal outworking of these verses , or if they were fulfilled in a spiritual way as john146 says. john146 I just disagree with the way you interpret the bible, it seems to be stretching interpretations beyond their original meaning.

If literal , then when Jesus stands on the Mount of Olives before Jerusalem, He will bring safety to Jerusalem and there will be people who are left of the nations who will have to go to Jerusalem every year, otherwise there will be no rain.

The literal translation definitely involves survivors after Jesus starts His literal reign in Jerusalem.




This is another passage I have personally looked at. I think a closer look will show that it could relate to the Lord's first Advent.

Zechariah 14:1 declares, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”

This passage and especially its rendering in the King James Version has caused confusion to many Bible students over the years. However, a closer examination of the original dispels a lot of ambiguity surrounding the passage. Firstly, the Hebrew does not actually say “the day of the Lord” as the King James Version renders it but ‘a day is coming for the Lord’. There is no definite article in the Hebrew in the text, so “a day” would be a better translation than “the day.” There is no doubt, the phrase “the day of the Lord” normally relates to the Second Coming in Scripture, but Zechariah 14:1 does not state that in the original. Therefore, we cannot insist that it is referring to the day of the Lord. This places a completely different slant on the meaning of the whole chapter. Other versions translate the reading more accurate.

The NASB says: "Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you."

The YLT states: "Lo, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst."


We must add to this the Greek LXX Septuagint, which supports this interpretation, saying,

idou Behold
hmerai day
erxontai cometh
tou the
kuriou Lord
kai even (or indeed)
diamerisqhsetai divides
ta the
skula spoils
sou you
en with
soi you

When we look at the usage of the Greek throughout the Old Testament (in the Greek LXX Septuagint) and our New Testament we find a definite pattern in relation to the wording and identification of the day of the Lord in the original.

In the New Testament:

Of the five “day of the Lord” passages in the New Testament, they read in the original:

Three are: “hemera kurios” (Acts 2:20, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Peter 3).

Two are: “hemera ho kurios” (1 Corinthians 5:5, 2 Corinthians 1:14).

In the Greek LXX Septuagint

Of the twenty “day of the Lord” passages in the Old Testament:

Eleven are: “hemera kurios” (Isaiah 13:6, 9, Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3, Joel 1:15, 2:1, 2:31, 3:14, Obadiah 1:15, Zephaniah 1:14, Malachi 4:5)

Four are: “hemera ho kurios” (Joel 2:11, Amos 5:18, 20, Zephaniah 1:7)


We can see, fifteen align precisely with the Greek New Testament wording and confirm that this would be the normal rendering of the Coming of Christ in the Greek. That is 75%.

One reads: “hemera ekeinos kurios” (Jeremiah 46:10), also meaning day of the Lord.

One is: “hemera gar kurios” (Isaiah 2:12), literally meaning day for the Lord.

Finally, there are two references (one after the other in Zephaniah) that refer to the same climactic day. One says, “hemera thumos kurios” (Zephaniah 2:2), meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. The other reads, “hemera orge kurios” (Zephaniah 2:3), similarly meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. Plainly, they are both speaking of the same day in the same reading and in the same context.

That brings us to Zechariah 14:1, which is worded completely different from the rest, saying, “hmerai erxontai tou kuriou,” literally meaning “a day is coming for the LORD.” None of the other passages say this. It is not unreasonable to make a distinction between Zechariah’s description and that of the other nineteen references. The only similarity is the King James Version’s translation of the same in the English. Notwithstanding, regardless of how high we value our A.V. we cannot use this as conclusive proof for equating the day Zechariah is speaking of to the other nineteen. The original rendering supersedes any other translations. It seems like he may not have been referring to the day of the Lord as is commonly used to describe the last day.

If it was, it would have most likely read “hemera kurios” or “hemera ho kurios” in the Greek LXX Septuagint. Or failing that: “hemera ekeinos kurios.” Whilst the wording of Zechariah 14:1 doesn't prevent it referring to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus the phrase ‘a day is coming for the Lord’ and ‘the day of the Lord’ are definitely not synonymous. It is therefore reasonable for us to question its identification with the Second Coming of the Lord and to consider the possibility that it relates to Christ’s first advent.

wpm
Nov 27th 2008, 05:36 PM
I personally see nothing of Zechariah 8 in these New Testament verses that you are trying to compare with Zechariah 8

8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
8:4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.


8:21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
8:22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Nothing like these verses has happened to Jews or "spiritual Jews" (christians) in a literal way or in a spiritual way , both before or since the crucifixion. Any reader of these posts can decide for themselves whether your explanation of Zechariah fits in any way.

Jerusalem hasn't been a "city of truth" since the crucifixion, but was destroyed for its lack of accepting the truth. And the current Jerusalem is also not renowned for its holiness, and there is no sign of God dwelling in Jerusalem above other cities at the moment.

God's Zion/Sion today is not a natural physical location but a spiritual heavenly people. Jerusalem is spiritual, heavenly, current today and eternal not carnal, earthly, temporal, delayed and physical.

Revelation 11:8 explicitly states, “the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”

This description was definitely not intended to be a commendation of Jerusalem but to describe it for exactly what it was/is. Many modern pro-Israel commentators today would probably throw the charge of anti-Semitic at such a charge, however, this charge comes from Christ.

Of course this portrayal is in full keeping with what Paul taught of the earthly Jerusalem in Galatians 4:22-31, where he said, “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

We see here the two Jerusalems compared and contrasted, representing two different distinct peoples, the saved and the lost. The earthly city is a symbol of bondage, whereas the heavenly city is used as a picture of freedom. Unfortunately, Premils keep their eyes upon the wrong Jerusalem and elevate the wrong Israel. Many today have their eyes on the wrong Jerusalem and places hopes upon it that are in clear conflict with Scripture. They seem to forget, the old temporal earthly type has been replaced by the new heavenly eternal reality.

Hebrews 12:18 says,“For ye are not come (plural perfect active indicative) unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest.”

Hebrews 12:22 says,“But ye are come (plural perfect active indicative) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.”

Hebrews 11:13-16 says, specifically speaking of the great Old Testament champions of faith, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

The Old Testament saints, like those in the New Testament, looked forth to a “prepared” eternal heavenly city, not a physical temporal earthly one. Their eyes were therefore not below but above. Scripture plainly tells us that that “place” is called the New Jerusalem – the eternal home of the beloved. The Premillennialist that looks for old Jerusalem at the Second Coming is evidently focused upon the wrong city.

Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

Like Abraham and the Old Testament saints of old, our eyes should be fixed upon another country, not an earthly, and a city that is not built with hands or can be touched or visited in this fleeting life.

That “place,” which Christ is preparing us, and for which His people are patiently waiting, is identified as an actual city in Hebrews 13:14. Notwithstanding, it is not a physical temporal earthly city sitting in the centre of natural Israel, but rather a heavenly eternal city. The passage says, “for here(that is on this earth) have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.” That city is the New Jerusalem, which Christ is presently preparing. Earthly Jerusalem is clearly with us now, whereas the New Jerusalem in all its glory is still to come!!!

DurbanDude
Nov 27th 2008, 05:48 PM
This is another passage I have personally looked at. I think a closer look will show that it could relate to the Lord's first Advent.

Zechariah 14:1 declares, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”

This passage and especially its rendering in the King James Version has caused confusion to many Bible students over the years. However, a closer examination of the original dispels a lot of ambiguity surrounding the passage. Firstly, the Hebrew does not actually say “the day of the Lord” as the King James Version renders it but ‘a day is coming for the Lord’. There is no definite article in the Hebrew in the text, so “a day” would be a better translation than “the day.” There is no doubt, the phrase “the day of the Lord” normally relates to the Second Coming in Scripture, but Zechariah 14:1 does not state that in the original. Therefore, we cannot insist that it is referring to the day of the Lord. This places a completely different slant on the meaning of the whole chapter. Other versions translate the reading more accurate.

The NASB says: "Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you."

The YLT states: "Lo, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst."


We must add to this the Greek LXX Septuagint, which supports this interpretation, saying,

idou Behold
hmerai day
erxontai cometh
tou the
kuriou Lord
kai even (or indeed)
diamerisqhsetai divides
ta the
skula spoils
sou you
en with
soi you

When we look at the usage of the Greek throughout the Old Testament (in the Greek LXX Septuagint) and our New Testament we find a definite pattern in relation to the wording and identification of the day of the Lord in the original.

In the New Testament:

Of the five “day of the Lord” passages in the New Testament, they read in the original:

Three are: “hemera kurios” (Acts 2:20, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Peter 3).

Two are: “hemera ho kurios” (1 Corinthians 5:5, 2 Corinthians 1:14).

In the Greek LXX Septuagint

Of the twenty “day of the Lord” passages in the Old Testament:

Eleven are: “hemera kurios” (Isaiah 13:6, 9, Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3, Joel 1:15, 2:1, 2:31, 3:14, Obadiah 1:15, Zephaniah 1:14, Malachi 4:5)

Four are: “hemera ho kurios” (Joel 2:11, Amos 5:18, 20, Zephaniah 1:7)


We can see, fifteen align precisely with the Greek New Testament wording and confirm that this would be the normal rendering of the Coming of Christ in the Greek. That is 75%.

One reads: “hemera ekeinos kurios” (Jeremiah 46:10), also meaning day of the Lord.

One is: “hemera gar kurios” (Isaiah 2:12), literally meaning day for the Lord.

Finally, there are two references (one after the other in Zephaniah) that refer to the same climactic day. One says, “hemera thumos kurios” (Zephaniah 2:2), meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. The other reads, “hemera orge kurios” (Zephaniah 2:3), similarly meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. Plainly, they are both speaking of the same day in the same reading and in the same context.

That brings us to Zechariah 14:1, which is worded completely different from the rest, saying, “hmerai erxontai tou kuriou,” literally meaning “a day is coming for the LORD.” None of the other passages say this. It is not unreasonable to make a distinction between Zechariah’s description and that of the other nineteen references. The only similarity is the King James Version’s translation of the same in the English. Notwithstanding, regardless of how high we value our A.V. we cannot use this as conclusive proof for equating the day Zechariah is speaking of to the other nineteen. The original rendering supersedes any other translations. It seems like he may not have been referring to the day of the Lord as is commonly used to describe the last day.

If it was, it would have most likely read “hemera kurios” or “hemera ho kurios” in the Greek LXX Septuagint. Or failing that: “hemera ekeinos kurios.” Whilst the wording of Zechariah 14:1 doesn't prevent it referring to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus the phrase ‘a day is coming for the Lord’ and ‘the day of the Lord’ are definitely not synonymous. It is therefore reasonable for us to question its identification with the Second Coming of the Lord and to consider the possibility that it relates to Christ’s first advent.

In this case I believe the context is clear , the Messiah is in Jerusalem and brings peace after a great war , and the whole nature of Jerusalem is changed. I will trust the translators on this issue.

The reason I was willing to believe your translation regarding Isaiah 65 is that even the English translation was ambiguous, and in the context of the mention of a New Earth your interpretation made more sense.

Not in this case.

DurbanDude
Nov 27th 2008, 06:01 PM
The Old Testament saints, like those in the New Testament, looked forth to a “prepared” eternal heavenly city, not a physical temporal earthly one. Their eyes were therefore not below but above. Scripture plainly tells us that that “place” is called the New Jerusalem – the eternal home of the beloved. The Premillennialist that looks for old Jerusalem at the Second Coming is evidently focused upon the wrong city.

Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

Like Abraham and the Old Testament saints of old, our eyes should be fixed upon another country, not an earthly, and a city that is not built with hands or can be touched or visited in this fleeting life.

That “place,” which Christ is preparing us, and for which His people are patiently waiting, is identified as an actual city in Hebrews 13:14. Notwithstanding, it is not a physical temporal earthly city sitting in the centre of natural Israel, but rather a heavenly eternal city. The passage says, “for here(that is on this earth) have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.” That city is the New Jerusalem, which Christ is presently preparing. Earthly Jerusalem is clearly with us now, whereas the New Jerusalem in all its glory is still to come!!!

I agree we are waiting for the New Jerusalem,and we are currently citizens of the New Jerusalem while we are waiting to receive our full inheritance. Immediately after the second coming I'm not sure if this will be a renewed Jerusalem without sin , or the New Jerusalem. Either way it will not be the current Jerusalem , and we will definitely have the New Jerusalem as our inheritance.

wpm
Nov 27th 2008, 11:56 PM
I agree we are waiting for the New Jerusalem,and we are currently citizens of the New Jerusalem while we are waiting to receive our full inheritance. Immediately after the second coming I'm not sure if this will be a renewed Jerusalem without sin , or the New Jerusalem. Either way it will not be the current Jerusalem , and we will definitely have the New Jerusalem as our inheritance.

One of the main differences between Premil and Amil is the condition of the post-Second Coming earth. The Premil earth is little different from ours today. It is saturated in sin, death, wars and rebellion. Many unsaved survive to enter into this future earth and prosper to saturate the earth. Corruption abounds relentless despite the supposed presence of Christ.

Romans 8 confirms that the curse will be terminated at Christ's Coming. The new incorruptible earth cannot be blighted by corruption - namely mortal creatures like ourselves. The earth will be restored to it previous pristine condition before the fall. All corruption is removed from the earth at Christ’s Coming. This means, anything that is not glorified is destroyed and cast into the lake of fire. I Corinthians 15:50 makes it explicitly clear, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

This earth is regenerated by fire at Christ’s appearing in order to remove every last vestige of the fall, eternally abolishing corruption and splendidly transforming this earth into its final glorified state. This renewed earth, being made perfect, can only therefore be inhabited by those who have been suitably prepared – namely glorified saints. This is why the saints are changed. This redeemed host, in their new spiritual bodies (bearing the image of the heavenly), will be appropriately attired to grace the renewed earth. Mortals are not qualified to inherit the new earth as they are plagued by the blight of corruption – which is expressly forbidden from the new earth. Sinful mortals (in their corruptible bodies) will not even survive the Lord’s climactic Coming never mind enter the glorified earth. They cannot abide the glorious presence of Christ at His appearing. It would be totally impossible for flesh and blood to inhabit such a glorious setting. Anyway, there will therefore be no more curse on the world as death will be swallowed up in victory. The bondage of corruption will be finally banished.

We must note the careful connection between “flesh and blood” and “corruption” (which relates to “this present time”) in comparison to “the kingdom of God” (that appears in all its final glory when “the trumpet shall sound”) and “incorruption.” To secure man's access to this glorified eternal kingdom, which is inherited alone by the meek (Psalm 37:9-11, 22, Matthew 5:5), “this corruptible must put on incorruption.” This passage, which is speaking of the period immediately following the Coming of Christ, confirms that no element of the fall can access the incorruptible eternal kingdom. Our bodies that are presently corruptible will be swiftly changed to eternal incorruptible ones. Paul describes this new condition in Romans 8 as our "glorification" – namely the receiving of our sinless "glorified" bodies. Corruption is barred from the new earth. The whole context of this reading is man’s final deliverance from his fallen corruptible state in order that he can inherit the incorruptible eternal kingdom on earth. It is talking of glorification and the eternal state on the new earth. This reading makes plain, “flesh and blood” or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last vestige of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer.

DIZZY
Nov 28th 2008, 04:06 AM
The ones that go into the Millennial Kingdom are saints who were not killed by the beast. Even though the beast ordered all those who would not worship him to be killed, he was not able to kill them all.

Matthew 24:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=22&version=50&context=verse)
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

God also hid Israel away in the wilderness where He protected her until all this was over.

Revelation 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

The 144,000 whom God sealed are also still about, no-one or nothing could touch them either, they were sealed by God in the forehead.

Revelation 7:1-3
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

Revelation 9:1-12
1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. 10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon. 12 One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things.

Throughout the tribulation period God protects Israel in the wilderness, the 144,000 with the seal and there are those saints from all the nations who survive the tribulation period, these are the ones who go into the Millennial Kingdom alive as mortals.

No one else, no unbelievers for they are all destroyed and cast into hades awaiting judgment, which is the second death. This is what happens to those who have fought against the people of God.

Zechariah 14:12-15
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.

Once the wicked are destroyed the Lord will reign from Jerusalem and He will bring His people back to Jerusalem.

Zechariah 8:1-23
1 Again the word of the LORD of hosts came, saying, 2 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ I am zealous for Zion with great zeal;
With great fervor I am zealous for her.’

3 “Thus says the LORD:


‘ I will return to Zion,
And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth,
The Mountain of the LORD of hosts,
The Holy Mountain.’

4 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Old men and old women shall again sit
In the streets of Jerusalem,
Each one with his staff in his hand
Because of great age.
5 The streets of the city
Shall be full of boys and girls
Playing in its streets.’

6 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days,
Will it also be marvelous in My eyes?’
Says the LORD of hosts.

7 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Behold, I will save My people from the land of the east
And from the land of the west;
8 I will bring them back,
And they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
They shall be My people
And I will be their God,
In truth and righteousness.’

9 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Let your hands be strong,
You who have been hearing in these days
These words by the mouth of the prophets,
Who spoke in the day the foundation was laid
For the house of the LORD of hosts,
That the temple might be built.
10 For before these days
There were no wages for man nor any hire for beast;
There was no peace from the enemy for whoever went out or came in;
For I set all men, everyone, against his neighbor.

11 But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as in the former days,’ says the LORD of hosts.
12 ‘ For the seed shall be prosperous,
The vine shall give its fruit,
The ground shall give her increase,
And the heavens shall give their dew—
I will cause the remnant of this people
To possess all these.
13 And it shall come to pass
That just as you were a curse among the nations,
O house of Judah and house of Israel,
So I will save you, and you shall be a blessing.
Do not fear,
Let your hands be strong.’

14 “For thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Just as I determined to punish you
When your fathers provoked Me to wrath,’
Says the LORD of hosts,

‘ And I would not relent,
15 So again in these days
I am determined to do good
To Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
Do not fear.
16 These are the things you shall do:
Speak each man the truth to his neighbor;
Give judgment in your gates for truth, justice, and peace;
17 Let none of you think evil in your[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=8&version=50#fen-NKJV-22988a)] heart against your neighbor;
And do not love a false oath.
For all these are things that I hate,’
Says the LORD.”

18 Then the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying, 19 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:

‘ The fast of the fourth month,
The fast of the fifth,
The fast of the seventh,
And the fast of the tenth,
Shall be joy and gladness and cheerful feasts
For the house of Judah.
Therefore love truth and peace.’

20 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:

‘ Peoples shall yet come,
Inhabitants of many cities;
21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying,

“ Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD,
And seek the LORD of hosts.
I myself will go also.”
22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations
Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
And to pray before the LORD.’

23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

Zechariah 14:16-21
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts.[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%2014;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-23084d)] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

During the Millennial Kingdom the church, tribulation saints (and saints from the Abrahamic period, up until the Lords death for this is when the church started) all reign with the Lord from Jerusalem.

Daniel 12:13
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

Revelation 5:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=5&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”

Revelation 20:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=4&version=50&context=verse)
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

1 Thessalonians 3:12-13
12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

wpm
Nov 28th 2008, 05:32 AM
The ones that go into the Millennial Kingdom are saints who were not killed by the beast. Even though the beast ordered all those who would not worship him to be killed, he was not able to kill them all.



Actually, all the saints are caught up at Christ's return. You will find that in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4.

DurbanDude
Nov 28th 2008, 06:26 AM
One of the main differences between Premil and Amil is the condition of the post-Second Coming earth. The Premil earth is little different from ours today. It is saturated in sin, death, wars and rebellion. Many unsaved survive to enter into this future earth and prosper to saturate the earth. Corruption abounds relentless despite the supposed presence of Christ.

Romans 8 confirms that the curse will be terminated at Christ's Coming. The new incorruptible earth cannot be blighted by corruption - namely mortal creatures like ourselves. The earth will be restored to it previous pristine condition before the fall. All corruption is removed from the earth at Christ’s Coming. This means, anything that is not glorified is destroyed and cast into the lake of fire. I Corinthians 15:50 makes it explicitly clear, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

This earth is regenerated by fire at Christ’s appearing in order to remove every last vestige of the fall, eternally abolishing corruption and splendidly transforming this earth into its final glorified state. This renewed earth, being made perfect, can only therefore be inhabited by those who have been suitably prepared – namely glorified saints. This is why the saints are changed. This redeemed host, in their new spiritual bodies (bearing the image of the heavenly), will be appropriately attired to grace the renewed earth. Mortals are not qualified to inherit the new earth as they are plagued by the blight of corruption – which is expressly forbidden from the new earth. Sinful mortals (in their corruptible bodies) will not even survive the Lord’s climactic Coming never mind enter the glorified earth. They cannot abide the glorious presence of Christ at His appearing. It would be totally impossible for flesh and blood to inhabit such a glorious setting. Anyway, there will therefore be no more curse on the world as death will be swallowed up in victory. The bondage of corruption will be finally banished.

We must note the careful connection between “flesh and blood” and “corruption” (which relates to “this present time”) in comparison to “the kingdom of God” (that appears in all its final glory when “the trumpet shall sound”) and “incorruption.” To secure man's access to this glorified eternal kingdom, which is inherited alone by the meek (Psalm 37:9-11, 22, Matthew 5:5), “this corruptible must put on incorruption.” This passage, which is speaking of the period immediately following the Coming of Christ, confirms that no element of the fall can access the incorruptible eternal kingdom. Our bodies that are presently corruptible will be swiftly changed to eternal incorruptible ones. Paul describes this new condition in Romans 8 as our "glorification" – namely the receiving of our sinless "glorified" bodies. Corruption is barred from the new earth. The whole context of this reading is man’s final deliverance from his fallen corruptible state in order that he can inherit the incorruptible eternal kingdom on earth. It is talking of glorification and the eternal state on the new earth. This reading makes plain, “flesh and blood” or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last vestige of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer.

wpm, I really don't speak on behalf of other pre-mills, my views are often a little different. Many pre-mills , especially pre-trib pre-mills who are a large portion ofpre-mills, believe the survivors are tribulation saints , those believers who miss the rapture and then become believers. Although I disagree with this just re-affirmimg that I don't speak on behalf of anyone else.

Where your understanding of the pre-mill post-trib perspective is completely wrong is your comment about the post second coming earth.
" It is saturated in sin, death, wars and rebellion."
This is so unlike anything that I have heard any pre-mill say that I wonder where you got that perspective from? The bible's view is that Satan is bound in the millenium, we both agree on this. However I believe that this will have a tangible effect on everyone during the millenium, in other words there will be no temptation , no demon possession, no demon influence, no negative thoughts bombarding our minds and the minds of the nations. This is completely different to your "nations" perspective on the binding of Satan during the millenium. The bible says there will be no sin in Jerusalem,and speaks of the "camp of the saints" and the "beloved city". So in the millenium according to the bible there is a specific city where the saints dwell (I wonder how that fits into your millenium?). There is warning to the nations concerning disobedience, there is no confirmation even that the nations will actually carry out any disobedience. There will only be occasional sin which will be stamped out immediately. In other words I believe this will be the most well run sinless world imaginable , with just a few really rebellious people occasionally slighty stepping over the boundaries with swift repercussion. There will be no war of any sort, all scripture is clear on this post-second coming world.

Only at the end of the 1000 years is Satan released, which just proves the hearts of those mortal survivors and their descendants because they have been living in a morally clean world with long life and happiness for 1000 years , but when faced with Satan's temptation they all fall and gather against God's people and God's city.

20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Hopefully you have a better understanding now?

jeffweeder
Nov 28th 2008, 07:15 AM
Hopefully you have a better understanding now?

Thats a little cheeky.


and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

What is this fire?---that destroys them all..

Isnt that meant to happen at the second coming?--like it was in the days of Noah, but this time reserved for fire?

Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire to give us relief ,and eternally seperate those who have ignored the Gospel. He does this on the day that we all marvel at him.-2thess 1

Again Jesus tells us that when he come in the glory of his Father and his Angels, he will seperate the sheep from the goats---the sheep marvel into eternal life, while the goats are roasted.-matt 25:31

Same goes for the wheat and the tares--both are seperated on harvest day.--matt 13.

Jesus again seems to say that when he comes the last day, we rise to eternal life, because we believed the testamony of the Gospel.....while those who ignored such a great salvation, will be judged the last day.

DurbanDude
Nov 28th 2008, 07:50 AM
[quote]
What is this fire?---that destroys them all..

Isnt that meant to happen at the second coming?--like it was in the days of Noah, but this time reserved for fire?

Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire to give us relief ,and eternally seperate those who have ignored the Gospel. He does this on the day that we all marvel at him.-2thess 1

Again Jesus tells us that when he come in the glory of his Father and his Angels, he will seperate the sheep from the goats---the sheep marvel into eternal life, while the goats are roasted.-matt 25:31

Same goes for the wheat and the tares--both are seperated on harvest day.--matt 13.


Jesus is described as being revealed in "blazing fire". There is an earthquake and great wrath , the bowls of wrath,and great destruction. The armies at armageddon experience fire and complete destruction, during the war referred to in Daniel 19

19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD

19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

THIS IS THE SECOND COMING

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

THE FIRST RESURRECTION HAPPENS AFTER THE TRIBULATION, NOT BEFORE , THE PERIOD OF THE BEAST CULMINATES IN THE REV 19 WAR AND THE DEATH OF THE BEAST. THE DEATH OF THE BEAST IS CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH THE SECOND COMING.

CONCLUSION: THE FIRST RESURRECTION HAPPENS AT THE SECOND COMING WHEN THE BEAST IS DESTROYED, SATAN JOINS THE BEAST IN THE LAKE OF FIRE ONLY 1000 YEARS LATER.

PLEASE READ REV 19 AND 20 CAREFULLY.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

ONLY 1000 YEARS LATER DOES SATAN DECEIVE THE NATIONS AND IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE TO JOIN THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET

Note: The elect being gathered while the ungodly are left behind ,the resurrection of the righteous , the destruction of the beast, the great earthquake where the ungodly hide in caves, and the second coming happen at the beginning of the 1000 years.

The unrighteous being cast into the lake of fire , the fiery destruction of the old earth, the "tares" , the gathering of the ungodly while leaving the godly behind, the setting up of the New Earth are at the end of 1000 years

DurbanDude
Nov 28th 2008, 08:03 AM
Thats a little cheeky.
.

:) Didn't mean to show any attitude here, wpm really seems to have misunderstood the millenium, and I hope he understands better now.

jeffweeder
Nov 28th 2008, 09:23 AM
Didn't mean to show any attitude here, wpm really seems to have misunderstood the millenium, and I hope he understands better now.



I would say wpm and I pretty much believe the same way--as far as i can tell.
Wpm just explains it better than what i can.

Ive got nothing against the book Revelation, think its wonderful, but its the last book of the bible, communicated in a way different way to all the other NT books.

The Apostles epistles had a complete enough knowledge, for them to teach on the last days--they all saw the end.
Once we can make sense of the unity of their understanding on these events, then we can tackle Revelation.

Jesus had assured his disciples that he had told them everthing in advance, and he assured them that just like in the days of Noah, would be just like his return.
He expanded this by saying that Heavan and Earth would in fact pass away , but his word--his telling them of the promise to come back for us--would not pass away.

Peter takes this up in his 2pet 3.

This is the last day, when jesus will come and not delay, shutting the door on faith and seperating those that have waited for him and those who rejected him.
The stars fall, the moon doesnt work, the sun is dark--the heavens pass away , the earth melts, all at the seond coming of Christ---no planet =no literal millenium, but we realise the promise of the mansion he has gone to prepare for us in the Fathers house.


Jesus said that if that were not the case he would have told you so...it is the case, when he comes we will be where he is now, and there is no turning back.

God is patient now ,not wanting any to perish, but as soon as Jesus comes back, its all over red rover, and those that have rejected such a wonderful salvation, will perish, because thats what happened to all those in the days of Noah.

these scriptures paint a picture of such a day.




[ROM 2
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation ]


The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.


"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." ]


I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:


heb 10
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES


"Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

These events seem to clearly put Christs coming for us at the end of millenium..according to the book of Revelation---which makes the Millenium the gospel age...blessed and happy and fortunate are they who partake of this experience, for the second death wont hurt them.

DIZZY
Nov 28th 2008, 01:45 PM
Actually, all the saints are caught up at Christ's return. You will find that in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4.

No my friend those that are caught up in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians 4 are actually raptured saints before the return of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

In Ephesians 1:9-11 we see Christ gathering not only those who have been raptured and or martyrd and the Old Testament saints prior to His return, He also gathers those who are still alive.

The raptured, Martyrd and Old Testament saints reign with Christ, while those who are alive when Christ returns enter the Millennial kingdom in there mortal bodies and are ruled over with a rod of iron by Christ.

Ephesians 1:9-11
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

DurbanDude
Nov 28th 2008, 02:29 PM
I would say wpm and I pretty much believe the same way--as far as i can tell.
Wpm just explains it better than what i can.

Ive got nothing against the book Revelation, think its wonderful, but its the last book of the bible, communicated in a way different way to all the other NT books.

The Apostles epistles had a complete enough knowledge, for them to teach on the last days--they all saw the end.
Once we can make sense of the unity of their understanding on these events, then we can tackle Revelation.
.

I don't see why we should first study other material before Revelation, "all scripture is God-breathed and useful...".

Remember, I also believe in a destiny of fire for all the ungodly. Firstly there will be wrath for the unbeliever at the second coming. The wrath and destruction at Armageddon and during the great earthquake will be extreme. The bible says the nations will mourn. They will also be terrified and run and hide.
Then at the end of the millenium there will be the lake of fire and complete destruction of earth , so each one will get their ultimate destiny. So if you show me verses that prove that the destiny of all the unrighteous is destruction by fire , all I can do is agree, yes ultimately this is their destiny.

If you follow the entire thread I have answered every question and debated many verses.

My question about Rev 20:4.5 mentioning 2 separate groups that are mutually exclusive hasn't yet been answered.

And I have an additional question:
Do you believe Rev 19 is describing a war that has happened or a future war?

I ask this because this is the war where Jesus comes to destroy the beast (Rev 19), which is the moment when Jesus' second coming happens and the resurrection. Many verses point to the "antichrist" being destroyed at the second coming (at least 5 verses come to mind immediately). Yet only 1000 years later (Rev 20) is the resurrection of the unrighteous, so Revelation is describing a FUTURE 1000 year period,not current.

wpm
Nov 28th 2008, 03:48 PM
" It is saturated in sin, death, wars and rebellion." This is so unlike anything that I have heard any pre-mill say that I wonder where you got that perspective from? The bible's view is that Satan is bound in the millenium, we both agree on this. However I believe that this will have a tangible effect on everyone during the millenium, in other words there will be no temptation , no demon possession, no demon influence, no negative thoughts bombarding our minds and the minds of the nations. This is completely different to your "nations" perspective on the binding of Satan during the millenium. The bible says there will be no sin in Jerusalem,and speaks of the "camp of the saints" and the "beloved city". So in the millenium according to the bible there is a specific city where the saints dwell (I wonder how that fits into your millenium?). There is warning to the nations concerning disobedience, there is no confirmation even that the nations will actually carry out any disobedience. There will only be occasional sin which will be stamped out immediately. In other words I believe this will be the most well run sinless world imaginable , with just a few really rebellious people occasionally slighty stepping over the boundaries with swift repercussion. There will be no war of any sort, all scripture is clear on this post-second coming world.

Only at the end of the 1000 years is Satan released, which just proves the hearts of those mortal survivors and their descendants because they have been living in a morally clean world with long life and happiness for 1000 years , but when faced with Satan's temptation they all fall and gather against God's people and God's city.


Thanks for your thoughts.

I need to ask: Where do you get all this detail re the perfect state of the millennial inhabitants? It sounds grand and pristine but I have never seen it in Scripture. Anyone born since Adam is by nature a rebel and always going to sin and run from God. He does that because that is his nature, not because of Satan.

I think that too many Christians blame the devil for their sin. The fact is, we sin because we are sinners. If the believer sins with the Holy Ghost within him in this age, then what will the unbeliever be like in your millennium after the Second Coming? He carries his Adamic nature with him and will always sin by nature.

Jesus said in Mark 7:20-23, "That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

The millennial sympathisers of Satan have grown to such a degree that they are described by the Holy Spirit as being “as the sand of the sea.” Satan is able to amass an incredible host when he is released that saturate the millennium. So much for this being "the most well run sinless world imaginable , with just a few really rebellious people occasionally slightly stepping over the boundaries with swift repercussion."

Whatever way you look at it: the end is a disaster. These so-called inhabitants perform the greatest rebellion in history. They are a kingdom of deceivers - pretending to obey Christ and His Word yet harbouring no commitment or loyalty. They are longing for their father Satan's release. They belong to him and jump to his very command.

These would not be nice people to be around or a nice environment to live in. Your millennial kingdom evidently falls apart at the end and goes belly-up.

wpm
Nov 28th 2008, 04:03 PM
if you show me verses that prove that the destiny of all the unrighteous is destruction by fire , all I can do is agree, yes ultimately this is their destiny.


Ok. You have said that and I will start even with Rev 19. It is the 6th of 7 parallels, it shows that all the wicked left behind are destroyed. After “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7) – everyone left behind is completely consumed. The birds of heaven are instructed to fill themselves with “the flesh of all men.” This is clearly not a local battle or a restricted group of men, as some Premils imagine. The sum-total of the wicked are totally destroyed. The suffix attached to this group “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to reinforce the point and remove any uncertainty as to the extent of the destruction. It is worded in such a careful way as to eliminate the restricting of this grouping by anyone.

Jesus said in Luke 17, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all ... the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (vv 27, 29, 30).

Jesus said that those left behind will suffer the same total, immediate and awful doom that Noah's world and Sodom suffered in their day (Luke 17). Once the ark door closes that is it. It is too late.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10, similarly says, “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeingit is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire(1) taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

Please note the wicked - to a man - are destroyed from "the presence of the Lord." This couldn't be more water tight.

What unregenerate man is excluded from the description of "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

This passage recognises only two types of person at Christ's appearing (as all Scripture). Saved or lost, caught up or caught on. In fact, it carefully situates men in one of only two distinct groupings, and conclusively proves that it is only "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" that will survive the Second Coming. The rest are expressly destroyed.

I Thessalonians 5:2-3 agrees, saying, “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then ‘aifnídios olethros’ (or) sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Please note (1) the destruction is “sudden” and (2) the wicked “shall not escape.” Now I note that you believe the wicked shall escape, however this conflicts with the sacred pages. You are therefore arguing with clear simple explicit Scripture. The fire that arrives is depicted as being totally destructive to the wicked, not empowering or edifying as you are suggesting. The “children of light” are the exception to this destructive judgment.

Please address these one by one. There are other passages in Scripture apart from Rev 20.

DIZZY
Nov 28th 2008, 09:26 PM
Ok. You have said that and I will start even with Rev 19. It is the 6th of 7 parallels, it shows that all the wicked left behind are destroyed. After “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7) – everyone left behind is completely consumed. The birds of heaven are instructed to fill themselves with “the flesh of all men.” This is clearly not a local battle or a restricted group of men, as some Premils imagine. The sum-total of the wicked are totally destroyed. The suffix attached to this group “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to reinforce the point and remove any uncertainty as to the extent of the destruction. It is worded in such a careful way as to eliminate the restricting of this grouping by anyone.

Jesus said in Luke 17, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all ... the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (vv 27, 29, 30).

Jesus said that those left behind will suffer the same total, immediate and awful doom that Noah's world and Sodom suffered in their day (Luke 17). Once the ark door closes that is it. It is too late.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10, similarly says, “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeingit is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire(1) taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

Please note the wicked - to a man - are destroyed from "the presence of the Lord." This couldn't be more water tight.

What unregenerate man is excluded from the description of "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?




This passage recognises only two types of person at Christ's appearing (as all Scripture). Saved or lost, caught up or caught on. In fact, it carefully situates men in one of only two distinct groupings, and conclusively proves that it is only "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" that will survive the Second Coming. The rest are expressly destroyed.


I think you got the wrong group being destroyed here. It is the wicked destroyed not the righteous. The wicked are taken from the earth, just like in the days of Noah and lot. You have put that the wicked are the onse who survive. I think you meant it the other way around. Did you?


I Thessalonians 5:2-3 agrees, saying, “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then ‘aifnídios olethros’ (or) sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Please note (1) the destruction is “sudden” and (2) the wicked “shall not escape.” Now I note that you believe the wicked shall escape, however this conflicts with the sacred pages. You are therefore arguing with clear simple explicit Scripture. The fire that arrives is depicted as being totally destructive to the wicked, not empowering or edifying as you are suggesting. The “children of light” are the exception to this destructive judgment.

Please address these one by one. There are other passages in Scripture apart from Rev 20.
[/quote]


Here's another good passage to show the wicked are destroyed at the coming of our Lord.

Zechariah 14:10-15
10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.

Hebrews 10:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=10&verse=31&version=31&context=verse)
It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

wpm
Nov 28th 2008, 10:09 PM
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I think you got the wrong group being destroyed here. It is the wicked destroyed not the righteous. The wicked are taken from the earth, just like in the days of Noah and lot. You have put that the wicked are the onse who survive. I think you meant it the other way around. Did you?

[/color]
I Thessalonians 5:2-3 agrees, saying, “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then ‘aifnídios olethros’ (or) sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Please note (1) the destruction is “sudden” and (2) the wicked “shall not escape.” Now I note that you believe the wicked shall escape, however this conflicts with the sacred pages. You are therefore arguing with clear simple explicit Scripture. The fire that arrives is depicted as being totally destructive to the wicked, not empowering or edifying as you are suggesting. The “children of light” are the exception to this destructive judgment.

Please address these one by one. There are other passages in Scripture apart from Rev 20.



Here's another good passage to show the wicked are destroyed at the coming of our Lord.

Zechariah 14:10-15
10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.

Hebrews 10:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=10&verse=31&version=31&context=verse)
It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.[/quote]

AD 70 was indeed a picture of the Coming of Christ.

DIZZY
Nov 28th 2008, 10:39 PM
AD 70 was indeed a picture of the Coming of Christ.

That's where we disagree, this has not been fulfilled yet. How can you say Zech 14 has been fulfilled.

wpm
Nov 29th 2008, 12:47 AM
That's where we disagree, this has not been fulfilled yet. How can you say Zech 14 has been fulfilled.

How can the wicked survive in I Thessalonians 5:2-3?
How can the wicked survive in Luke 17:27, 29, 30?
How can the wicked survive in II Thessalonians 1:4-10?
How can the wicked survive in Rev 19?

DurbanDude
Nov 29th 2008, 06:43 AM
Thanks for your thoughts.

I need to ask: Where do you get all this detail re the perfect state of the millennial inhabitants? It sounds grand and pristine but I have never seen it in Scripture. Anyone born since Adam is by nature a rebel and always going to sin and run from God. He does that because that is his nature, not because of Satan.



I agree with you that man's nature is evil, but are you trying to imply that Satan has NO effect. This is not biblical , satan has a massive effect on evil. I am sure that without Satan there will be a decrease in sin , surely you could at least agree on that? And with the knowledge of swift and effective repercussion , and that they will always be caught out, this will also decrease sin. You can look at the extremely low crime rates in Islamic countries where there is neither swift repercussion nor a 100% of crimes are solved. Yet just the knowledge of the intense repercussions of being found out is enough to deter crime in those countries. So your general thoughts on future sin in a world without Satan aren't enough to prove that my theory on the millenium "goes belly up". The bible is clear that as soon as Satan is released from the bottomless pit he has an immediate effect on all the nations so he certainly has a massive influence, although you have tried to argue this point , Satan's influence is biblically undeniable:
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


This view of the nature of the millenium is supported by Zechariah 14 , Revelation 20:3 , Isaiah 2, Zechariah 8 which we have both already given our views on in this thread. Anyone can read these verses for themselves to decide whose view fits best, so there is no need for further discussion , but it is clear that my represention of the millenium has reasoning behind it. These verses concern a world after Jesus has destroyed the enemies of Israel and established his rule and holiness in Zion.

There are other verses too which we can discuss if you like eg:
Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim.
3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

Here we see that when the Lord comes to dwell in Zion, Egypt and Edom will be desolated, but not Jerusalem. Jerusalem will be cleansed and holy. These desolated regions don't agree with your version of an earth destroyed by fire, if you tie this in with Revelation then the New Earth only occurs 1000 years later.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 also speak of the destiny of various nations on earth when the Lord God has protected and cleansed Israel when Gog attacks Israel. Their destiny is not complete annihilation , just partial.

wpm
Nov 29th 2008, 03:45 PM
This view of the nature of the millenium is supported by Zechariah 14 , Revelation 20:3 , Isaiah 2, Zechariah 8 which we have both already given our views on in this thread. Anyone can read these verses for themselves to decide whose view fits best, so there is no need for further discussion , but it is clear that my represention of the millenium has reasoning behind it. These verses concern a world after Jesus has destroyed the enemies of Israel and established his rule and holiness in Zion.

There are other verses too which we can discuss if you like eg:
Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim.
3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

Here we see that when the Lord comes to dwell in Zion, Egypt and Edom will be desolated, but not Jerusalem. Jerusalem will be cleansed and holy. These desolated regions don't agree with your version of an earth destroyed by fire, if you tie this in with Revelation then the New Earth only occurs 1000 years later.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 also speak of the destiny of various nations on earth when the Lord God has protected and cleansed Israel when Gog attacks Israel. Their destiny is not complete annihilation , just partial.

I need to clarify a few points here because I am a bit confused.

Is the wicked not all destroyed in Rev 19 ("the flesh of all men"), disallowing the possibility of any unsaved on the earth to come? Who then are the millennial inhabitants? Maybe you have explained this but I am not sure of what you are saying here. If they are believers alone, why were they not caught up to see Jesus?

Are you saying that Egypt (or every Egyptian) will be totally wiped out at Christ's return but no Israelis?

I feel you have stripped "the last days" of any actual meaning - placing it everywhere from the OT period to the NT period to a supposed period after the Second Coming (and before the new earth). However, the last day is mentioned in an unqualified way. If your paradigm were right surely there would be a stipulation of Mark 1 "last days" (relating to the intra-Advent period) and Mark 2 "last days" (relating to a future post-Second Coming earth). Anything else is confusing.

Just for interest, what NT "last days" passages relate to a future millennium in your estimation?

wpm
Nov 29th 2008, 03:56 PM
I agree with you that man's nature is evil, but are you trying to imply that Satan has NO effect. This is not biblical , satan has a massive effect on evil. I am sure that without Satan there will be a decrease in sin , surely you could at least agree on that? And with the knowledge of swift and effective repercussion , and that they will always be caught out, this will also decrease sin. You can look at the extremely low crime rates in Islamic countries where there is neither swift repercussion nor a 100% of crimes are solved. Yet just the knowledge of the intense repercussions of being found out is enough to deter crime in those countries. So your general thoughts on future sin in a world without Satan aren't enough to prove that my theory on the millenium "goes belly up". The bible is clear that as soon as Satan is released from the bottomless pit he has an immediate effect on all the nations so he certainly has a massive influence, although you have tried to argue this point , Satan's influence is biblically undeniable:
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


The presence of Jesus 2,000 years ago didn't stop sinners sinning, so why would the mere absence of Satan do that? You attribute too much goodness to sinful man - who is after all a rebel by nature whether in a Muslim country or in your supposed future millennium. Your millennial inhabitants are no different from our day. In fact, they grow to such a large degree that they swamp your millennium. They overtake it. So much for the picture painted by you of prosperity and peace. These inhabitants are wicked and treacherous without Christ - like any other generation. Their hearts and minds are debased.

Let us look at these two organs that these millennial inhabitants possess.

The heart

Jeremiah 17:9 tell us: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

This is not a good prognosis. Every one of us that is brought into this world has a bad heart. We have a heart that is bent away from God and towards self. It always wants to put other things in front of God. It is a heart that left unchanged will ultimately take us to hell.

That is why Proverbs 28:26 tells us: “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.”

If you are led by feelings then you are a fool! They will be up and down like the Stock Market.

Jesus said in Matthew 15:19-20, “out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man.”

Ecclesiastes 9:3 explains, “the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.”

The unsaved have a seriously bad heart.

The mind

I wonder is the mind of your millennial dwellers any better. You know that the mind is the control centre for the whole body and determines what we do.

Isaiah 55:8-9 says, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

Romans 8: 6-8 also says, “to be carnally (or the natural) minded is death …Because the carnalmind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”

I always wanted to look up that word enmity in the original. It is the word echthra (ekh'-thrah) meaning hostile. Our natural normal mind is contrary to the mind of God. This is not good news.

That’s why Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:5, “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves.”

Romans 3:11-12 explains why, saying, “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

I have more bad news, the natural thought life – the mind is defective.

Isaiah 55:7 reflects the desire of God: “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts.”

Who needs a devil when our biggest most persistent and damaging enemy the flesh is there every day to pull us down.

modanufu
Nov 29th 2008, 04:07 PM
Hi DurbanDude, I was reading what you wrote:


Please note that Matthew 13 is referring to the end of the world , not the end of the age.

But what KJV translates as "the end of the world" is in Greek "the end of the age".

Matt. 13:40 - So shall it be in the end of this world
Greek - Houtôs estai en tèi sunteleia tou aiônos
Literally: Thus it-will-be in the completion of-the age

[I'm sorry, later on I read that this point has been treated already. Well, perhaps it is never said too often. :)]

Dik

third hero
Nov 29th 2008, 05:18 PM
No my friend those that are caught up in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians 4 are actually raptured saints before the return of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

In Ephesians 1:9-11 we see Christ gathering not only those who have been raptured and or martyrd and the Old Testament saints prior to His return, He also gathers those who are still alive.

The raptured, Martyrd and Old Testament saints reign with Christ, while those who are alive when Christ returns enter the Millennial kingdom in there mortal bodies and are ruled over with a rod of iron by Christ.

Ephesians 1:9-11
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Okay, I know that this thread is mostly the debate between the post-trib premils and the post-trib amils, but I have to comment on this particular post.

1. There is not 2 raptures. Matthew 24:29 clearly states that the Lord does NOT gather His people until "After the tribulation of those days". ! Thessalonians 4:15 explicitly states that the "rapture" that Paul talks about in the next verses happen at "the coming of the Lord", and the dead rise before the living are transformed and meeting the Lord in the air, therefore confirming what Jesus said in Matthew 24 AND Mark 13.

2. Ephesians 1 has absolutely NOTHING to do with ANY RAPTURE.

third hero
Nov 29th 2008, 05:25 PM
How can the wicked survive in I Thessalonians 5:2-3?
How can the wicked survive in Luke 17:27, 29, 30?
How can the wicked survive in II Thessalonians 1:4-10?
How can the wicked survive in Rev 19?

How about answering these questions first.

1. Is the name of God one today? (Mind you, I am talking about throughout the world, and not just among believers, as Zechariah 14:9 clearly suggests).

2. When did the Mount of Olives split? According to Zechariah 14:4, the Lord splits the Mount of Olives. Which leads to my next question.

3. When did the Lord return? According to Zechariah 14:5, the Lord returns, with His saints. When did this happen, if the Zechariah 14 is fulfilled?

4. Where is the Lord now? If He has returned, then He would be in Jerusalem, requiring all nations to send representatives to Him at Jerusalem to worship Him during the feast of Tabrnacles. Last time I checked, that has not happened.

You see, unlike your figurations, I have concrete evidence that is clearly seen to prove that Zechariah 14 has not been fulfilled yet.

third hero
Nov 29th 2008, 05:46 PM
How can the wicked survive in I Thessalonians 5:2-3?
How can the wicked survive in Luke 17:27, 29, 30?

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. -Luke 17:26

Notice that Jesus is comparing the His days to the days of Noah? If all of the destruction that happens onto the wicked happens in one day, then why is the day of the Lord plural? This means that there is more than one day of the Lord, just like there was 100 years between God's decree for Noah to build an ark and the eventual destruction of the earth. The rain did not stop in one day, but in 40. These details often derail concepts like one day destruction when the Lord comes.


How can the wicked survive in II Thessalonians 1:4-10?

Let's take a look at 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Notice what it does not say. Notice that the icked are not burned up. Instead, the "in flaming fire" describes the temperament of the Lord when He comes, as noted in verses 9-10. Therefore, adverbs do not make the the Lord's wrath fire. It is only flaming, like the wrath of God, and anyone else who has unleashed their wrath on people that brought it upon themselves. (Personally, when I had anger issues, I understood clearly what it meant to taking vengeance in flaming fire, for when I was in "rage mode", my body felt like it was on fire, with flames pulsating through my veins. This is why in just about every book, novel or fictional work, wrath and rage is described as a fire.)

Here are some examples of wrath and the fire references in the Bible alone.

And it came to pass, when his master heard the words of his wife, which she spake unto him, saying, After this manner did thy servant to me; that his wrath was kindled. -Genesis 39:19

And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, [which] consumed them as stubble. Exodus 15:7

And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless. -Exodus 22:24

And there are many more scriptures in the OT alone that describes the Lod's wrath as being hot, fiery, and consuming, but none of those examples actually show the Lord destroying his adversaries in a fire.

In the first example, it wasn't even god whose wrath was kindled, it was Pottifer.

In the second example, God described his wrath against Egypt, which the last time I check, did not use fire at all when dispensing his wrath against Pharoah.

In the last example, God is describing what he will do to Israel if they kindle his wrath.

Therefore, fiery wrath does not equal consumation by fire. It only means that the Lord's anger is hot, as a consuming fire.


How can the wicked survive in Rev 19?

Here is your biggest mistake. You forget, the "wicked" are gathered to Magiddo, as describd in Revelation 16:13-14, 16. Therefore, the wicked in Megiddo does not survive, just as Ezekiel 39 maintains. And on top of that, the birds end up eating the sacrifice of the wicked, just as described in both Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 19. And so, although the kings and the princes of the earth, as well as the soldiers of the earth do not survive, that destruction does NOT encompass the entire earth.

Now, feel free to answer my questions.

wpm
Nov 29th 2008, 07:05 PM
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. -Luke 17:26

Notice that Jesus is comparing the His days to the days of Noah? If all of the destruction that happens onto the wicked happens in one day, then why is the day of the Lord plural? This means that there is more than one day of the Lord, just like there was 100 years between God's decree for Noah to build an ark and the eventual destruction of the earth. The rain did not stop in one day, but in 40. These details often derail concepts like one day destruction when the Lord comes.

In Luke 17, Christ compares both the environment and the happenings that were in play before these two individual destructive days in the past (Noah’s day and Sodom) to the days preceding the Lord's return. He also likens the 2 judgments that fell on these 2 respective destructive days - when all the wicked in Sodom and in Noah's day were destroyed and all of the righteous were rescued - to His all-consummating return. We see the comparison between both the days (plural) before and the day of annihilation of all the wicked and the day (singular) of each destruction also. This is indisputable.

The whole thrust of the Lord comments are addressed against the slothful, obstinate, unprepared unsaved. He depicts the destruction of all the wicked Noah’s day and in Sodom as a vivid and a solemn picture of that which faces the wicked at His return. He says, “as it was in the days of Noe,so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot;they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed”(Luke 17:26-30).

The fact is, it is not just that the godless “days” (plural) that precede the Second Coming are equated to the evil “days” (plural) of Noah and Lot’s days prior to judgment in this reading it is that the “day” (singular) that Christ returns to judge the world is equally likened to the “day” (singular) judgment hit Noah’s world and Sodom. Your recognition of only one part of this narrative to the exclusion of the other is causing you to miss the overall thrust of this teaching. I would even dare to suggest, you are missing the most important element of this story.

Jesus presents both aspects revealing the “days” and “day” that surrounded these former judgments to be comparable with the end-time judgment. We should not forget, this instruction is primarily a warning to the Christ-rejecter of our day. The days before God poured out His wrath upon the sinner in Noah and Lot’s day were indeed wicked. Christ warns: “so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.” But, the resulting days of destruction are also akin, Jesus confirms: ‘Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:26-30). So, it is not just the approaching days that are comparable, but the day also when God finally calls time on the rebel.

What happened then in these two olden examples? God poured out His wrath on those rebellious generations and destroyed the remembrance of the wicked. The key thrust of this story revolves around the fact that Christ explains that God “destroyed them all.” This couldn’t be clearer. In fact, Jesus reinforces this truth by repeating this statement twice – ensuring that we do not miss the import.

Yes, the days approaching each respective day of destruction parallel each other, but so too does the resulting days of judgment. Just like men in Noah and Lot’s day were rebellious, indifferent and worldly-minded, so it will also be the same in the days approaching Christ’s return. The application and overriding focus of this narrative is the fate of the wicked. In all three days God is seen to pour out His wrath upon these rebels without exception. We are advantaged to know the all-inclusive scale of the destruction in the two former days. Jesus says in this reading that the Second Coming will be the same.




Let's take a look at 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Notice what it does not say. Notice that the icked are not burned up. Instead, the "in flaming fire" describes the temperament of the Lord when He comes, as noted in verses 9-10. Therefore, adverbs do not make the the Lord's wrath fire. It is only flaming, like the wrath of God, and anyone else who has unleashed their wrath on people that brought it upon themselves. (Personally, when I had anger issues, I understood clearly what it meant to taking vengeance in flaming fire, for when I was in "rage mode", my body felt like it was on fire, with flames pulsating through my veins. This is why in just about every book, novel or fictional work, wrath and rage is described as a fire.)

Here are some examples of wrath and the fire references in the Bible alone.

And it came to pass, when his master heard the words of his wife, which she spake unto him, saying, After this manner did thy servant to me; that his wrath was kindled. -Genesis 39:19

And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, [which] consumed them as stubble. Exodus 15:7

And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless. -Exodus 22:24

And there are many more scriptures in the OT alone that describes the Lod's wrath as being hot, fiery, and consuming, but none of those examples actually show the Lord destroying his adversaries in a fire.

In the first example, it wasn't even god whose wrath was kindled, it was Pottifer.

In the second example, God described his wrath against Egypt, which the last time I check, did not use fire at all when dispensing his wrath against Pharoah.

In the last example, God is describing what he will do to Israel if they kindle his wrath.

Therefore, fiery wrath does not equal consumation by fire. It only means that the Lord's anger is hot, as a consuming fire.


This is a great difficulty Amils have with Premil. It spiritualises literal passages (like the one we are looking at) and literalises spiritual passages (like the book of Revelation). The OT passages that you symbolise should actually be taken literally. You need to look at them again. II Thessalonians 1:4-10 should also be taken similar. Please read what the text is saying and address the clear detail: "taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

The fact is, men either know God or else they don’t. If they don’t they will be destroyed at His Coming. Moreover, men either obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ or else they don’t. We must always remember, the Word of God is primarily our signpost to Christ and salvation. Obedience to God’s Word therefore means humbling one’s self before the Lord in faith and repentance. We must accept our own sinful state; we must repent of our sin; we must accept Christ as Saviour and Lord of our lives. Jesus warns, “except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3). Those that don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ will therefore “be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.”

There is no 1,000 yrs delay in this destruction it actually accompanies the return of Christ. Moreover, all who "know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" are destroyed. Please list an unsaved person that are exempted from this description?




Here is your biggest mistake. You forget, the "wicked" are gathered to Magiddo, as describd in Revelation 16:13-14, 16. Therefore, the wicked in Megiddo does not survive, just as Ezekiel 39 maintains. And on top of that, the birds end up eating the sacrifice of the wicked, just as described in both Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 19. And so, although the kings and the princes of the earth, as well as the soldiers of the earth do not survive, that destruction does NOT encompass the entire earth.

Now, feel free to answer my questions.



How can this be? It doesn't say it is a local battle. It doesn't mention Megiddo. You have to make it that. Any way you have previously argued that Zech 14 relates to the Second Coming and that Zechariah 14:16 records many survivors from this battle. This just doesn't add up.

Zechariah 14:16 confirms: "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

Your millennium is corrupted my many of the beast's army!!!

DurbanDude
Nov 30th 2008, 04:42 AM
Who needs a devil when our biggest most persistent and damaging enemy the flesh is there every day to pull us down.

wpm , if you don't back down on the simplest of points , that Satan does have an effect , then this discussion is not going anywhere. I don't see the purpose of all those verses you quote when I've already agreed with you on the nature of man. After agreeing with you I specifically asked if you could at least concede that Satan does have an effect. By your lack of acknowledgement of this basic point it seems that you are arguing with the bible and not me , because the bible is clear that Satan has an effect on mankind. Why not just concede this small point to show some degree of conciliation? It won't completely ruin your point but will show that there is a point to this discussion ,a sharing of PoV , and acknowledgement of biblical truth being foremeost in this discussion, rather than sticking to one's own PoV no matter what the evidence.



Is the wicked not all destroyed in Rev 19 ("the flesh of all men"), disallowing the possibility of any unsaved on the earth to come? Who then are the millennial inhabitants? Maybe you have explained this but I am not sure of what you are saying here. If they are believers alone, why were they not caught up to see Jesus


The context of Rev 19:18 shows that the phrase "the flesh of all men" is referring to all the various types of men "free and slave" that are gathered at Megiddo.

Even Rev 19 indicates survivors that Jesus rules with an iron rod:

19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Also, reading your comment quoted above, you still don't seem to have a basic understanding of my PoV when I have been very clear, so it seems as if there is a lot of talking and not much listening. We should be open-minded to a good biblical point, its a good way to learn more.

To answer your question , the millenial inhabitants are the survivors of the tribulation, the nations who are ruled with an iron rod. Remember , after the Second Coming, the saints rule with Christ , so we are not ruled over with an iron rod, who then is ruled with an iron rod? The nations who survive (ref Rev 19:15 quoted above)

DurbanDude
Nov 30th 2008, 05:27 AM
Ok. You have said that and I will start even with Rev 19.

Jesus said in Luke 17, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all ... the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (vv 27, 29, 30).

II Thessalonians 1:4-10, similarly says, “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeingit is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire(1) taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”


I Thessalonians 5:2-3 agrees, saying, “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then ‘aifnídios olethros’ (or) sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”



wpm , those two verses from Thessalonians have already been dealt with. Rev 19 was dealt with in the post above.

Comparisons aren't always identical , so regarding Luke 17 we have two comparisons , that with Noah and that with Lot. The second coming being compared to these two events fits my PoV perfectly:

1) Noah - all inhabitants of earth destroyed
2) Lot - all the inhabitants of just two cities, Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed.

The second coming , according to Joel , is initiated by Jesus' response to the prayers of Jews when Israel is attacked by armies. Jesus comes to finish this war and gather His saints , and to establish Jerusalem as foremost among earth. These armies are completely and utterly destroyed which can be compared to Sodom and Gomorrah, localised destruction for the enemies of God. But when Jesus comes the fear of God comes upon the whole earth , for Jesus rules with an iron rod. The great earthquake will effect all on the face of the earth, and they will all know their mortality compared to the resurrected saints that rule over them. Their spiritual destruction is sealed on that day, and their physical loss is extreme if they survive, hence the comparison with Noah.

DIZZY
Nov 30th 2008, 10:37 AM
How can the wicked survive in I Thessalonians 5:2-3?
How can the wicked survive in Luke 17:27, 29, 30?
How can the wicked survive in II Thessalonians 1:4-10?
How can the wicked survive in Rev 19?

Hi wpm,

To answer your questions I had to dive deeper into the word. Sorry I took so long in getting back to you.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-10
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
Paul told the Thessalonians that they should not concern themselves with the day of the Lord. In a previous letter he told them all about the return of the Lord so they knew what to expect. They were enlightened by Paul, they were children of light just as we are children of the light we know what the word of God says about the return of the Lord and we know what the Bible says about the times and seasons. We do not live in darkness as others do, this is why we as children of God need to go out and tell others the Gospel message so they may be saved from the wrath that is to come. The verses below is what Paul was referring to, don’t be soon shaken because you know that the Lord is coming for us we don’t live in darkness.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=4&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
13But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I Corinthians 15:50-58

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “ O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-10
4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Paul is indicating here that those who suffer during the tribulation for the Lords sake will find rest with those who have gone to be with the Lord before His return.(namely the church)

Zechariah 14:5

5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.


Jude 1:13-15
13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

DIZZY
Nov 30th 2008, 10:38 AM
Now as you can see the Lord comes and takes the church away. Throughout Revelation God deals with the wicked and He pours out His wrath upon them yet the Bible repeatedly tells us that the wicked did not repent.

1. Revelation 9:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=9&verse=20&version=50&context=verse)
But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.


2. Revelation 9:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=9&verse=21&version=50&context=verse)
And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.


3. Revelation 16:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=16&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.


4. Revelation 16:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=16&verse=11&version=50&context=verse)
They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

None of the wicked will survive when the Lord returns they all will be consumed by the word that proceeds out of the Lord mouth. They will be judged by the gospel message that they had heard and rejected. They will be cast into the pit awaiting their final judgment at the Great White Throne.


Luke 17:27-30
27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.


Revelation 19:11-16
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The armies of heaven I believe are made up of the church saints, tribulation saints and angels. The angels gather the elect to the Lord the saints just ride the white horse and return with the Lord. The Lord judges the wicked and casts them into outer darkness the pit.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


There will be the 144,000, Israel and those saints who overcame Satan and his attacks in their mortal bodies living in the millennial kingdom. The children to these people will grow up without Satan and his demon hoards tempting them. The Beast and the False Prophet will be in the lake of fire and Satan will be bound in the pit.


These children will grow up in the presence of the Lord but just like the first time the Lord was here you will have those willing to believe and obey and you will have those who disobey. The Lord will punish those who do not obey straight away as He rule with a rode of iron.


When Satan is let lose again he will deceive those from all nations who have chosen to disobey the Lord and they will form Satan’s army, they will all go up against the camp of the saints, and God will kill them all with fire that he sends down from heaven.


Revelation 20:7-10
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

third hero
Nov 30th 2008, 01:55 PM
In Luke 17, Christ compares both the environment and the happenings that were in play before these two individual destructive days in the past (Noah’s day and Sodom) to the days preceding the Lord's return. He also likens the 2 judgments that fell on these 2 respective destructive days - when all the wicked in Sodom and in Noah's day were destroyed and all of the righteous were rescued - to His all-consummating return. We see the comparison between both the days (plural) before and the day of annihilation of all the wicked and the day (singular) of each destruction also. This is indisputable.

Point completely missed. Just like the days of Noah, so will it be on the days (plural) of the Son of Man. This means that the day of the Lord is not one day as you suppose, but more than one day. Otherwise, it would be called, "the day (singular) of the Lord", which in Luke 17 it is not. It is the days (plural) of the Lord. Also, just like unto the days of Noah, the destruction of the people did not happen in one day, but 40. The rains lasted fourty days, and all that were on the earth then perished, not instantly when the rains started to fall, but by the end of those forty days. We see this pattern throughout the OT, and that was when the Lord judged the nations atr least once per generation. This, unlike your presupposition, is irrefutable.


The whole thrust of the Lord comments are addressed against the slothful, obstinate, unprepared unsaved. He depicts the destruction of all the wicked Noah’s day and in Sodom as a vivid and a solemn picture of that which faces the wicked at His return. He says, “as it was in the days of Noe,so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot;they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed”(Luke 17:26-30).

The fact is, it is not just that the godless “days” (plural) that precede the Second Coming are equated to the evil “days” (plural) of Noah and Lot’s days prior to judgment in this reading it is that the “day” (singular) that Christ returns to judge the world is equally likened to the “day” (singular) judgment hit Noah’s world and Sodom. Your recognition of only one part of this narrative to the exclusion of the other is causing you to miss the overall thrust of this teaching. I would even dare to suggest, you are missing the most important element of this story.


You can not have it both ways. Luke 17:26 makes the days of the Lord plural, and just because the Lord mentions Sodom, it does not negate th e FACT that the Lord said that the days (Plural) of Him are likened to the days (plural) of Noah.


Jesus presents both aspects revealing the “days” and “day” that surrounded these former judgments to be comparable with the end-time judgment. We should not forget, this instruction is primarily a warning to the Christ-rejecter of our day. The days before God poured out His wrath upon the sinner in Noah and Lot’s day were indeed wicked. Christ warns: “so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.” But, the resulting days of destruction are also akin, Jesus confirms: ‘Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:26-30). So, it is not just the approaching days that are comparable, but the day also when God finally calls time on the rebel.

Wrong yet again. Jesus makes the comparisons between His return and the days of both Noah and Sodom. His point is that when H returns, He will judge the nations and remove the wicked, just like Matthew 25:31-46 states and Revelation 19:11-20 confirms.


What happened then in these two olden examples? God poured out His wrath on those rebellious generations and destroyed the remembrance of the wicked. The key thrust of this story revolves around the fact that Christ explains that God “destroyed them all.” This couldn’t be clearer. In fact, Jesus reinforces this truth by repeating this statement twice – ensuring that we do not miss the import.

What happened on both accounts? Were there not survivors? Did God not spare Noah and Lot? Were they worthy of being spared? Take a look at Lot, for instance. Do you think that incest is something that God approves? And yet, He had mercy on Lot, just like He mentions in Matthew 25:31-46 that of the nations that are left, he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy on. This concept was actually predicted by Daniel in Daniel 7:11-12. It is only the amil brand that equates figurations to reality and attempts to take reality and figurate it. This is not what the Premil brand does. We take scripture as is, as it is written. When we look at a passage, we look at the context of that passage to determine whether a passage has symbolism in it or not. The Amil brand seems to attempt to manipulate scripture into it's own likeness, figurating things that ought not to be figurated, and making reality things that are obviously figurations, like the "fiery wrath" example that I have shown earlier in this thread.


Yes, the days approaching each respective day of destruction parallel each other, but so too does the resulting days of judgment. Just like men in Noah and Lot’s day were rebellious, indifferent and worldly-minded, so it will also be the same in the days approaching Christ’s return. The application and overriding focus of this narrative is the fate of the wicked. In all three days God is seen to pour out His wrath upon these rebels without exception. We are advantaged to know the all-inclusive scale of the destruction in the two former days. Jesus says in this reading that the Second Coming will be the same.

Again, time after time, the Lord ended up sparing people, just like in the time of Noah and Lot, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. I am not about to call God unrighteous just because He does not want to end the world when His Son returns. I find Him just, simply because He, while in His wrath, will still spare humanity from not only the fullness of HIs wrath (Which is absolute destruction), but also the influence of the Evil one, (Revelation 20:1-3). I find it rather just for God to send His Son to show humanity what the world would have been like if only Adam had not sinned against Him. Not only do I find the Millennium just, but I find it scriptural, as Revelation 20:4-10 proves irrevocably.



This is a great difficulty Amils have with Premil. It spiritualises literal passages (like the one we are looking at) and literalises spiritual passages (like the book of Revelation). The OT passages that you symbolise should actually be taken literally. You need to look at them again. II Thessalonians 1:4-10 should also be taken similar. Please read what the text is saying and address the clear detail: "taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

The fact is, men either know God or else they don’t. If they don’t they will be destroyed at His Coming. Moreover, men either obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ or else they don’t. We must always remember, the Word of God is primarily our signpost to Christ and salvation. Obedience to God’s Word therefore means humbling one’s self before the Lord in faith and repentance. We must accept our own sinful state; we must repent of our sin; we must accept Christ as Saviour and Lord of our lives. Jesus warns, “except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3). Those that don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ will therefore “be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.”

Men may not know the true extent of the wrath of God, but we DO know His pattern, for He left it intact for us to follow through the OT. 2Thessalonians 1 is not the first time that the writer mentions anything concerning the burning, fiery wrath of God, and yet, out of at least 20 examples of the contrary throughout the OT, you want to make 2 Thessalonians 1:4 into a factual statement. This is irony. Even if we use your method of letting scripture define other scripture, the OT examples of God's fiery wrath is clear. It only mentions the degree in which the Lord is angered, not what instrument He will use to implement His wrath. As we see in Revelation 19, the only instrument of His wrath is the double-edged sword in His mouth, that He will use to slay all of the Wicked who are gathered at the winepress of His wrath. (Revelation 14:17-20; 16:12-14, 16; 19:11-20). The fire that destroys the world doesn't even show up until after the 1000 year imprisonment of Satan is complete and Satan uses Gog and Magog to attack the Beloved City, where the Tribulation Saints camped. Therefore, either 2 Thessalonians 1:4 is wrong, or your interpretation of said verse is wrong. I am willing to hedge my bets on the latter, since the Bible does not contradict itself.



There is no 1,000 yrs delay in this destruction it actually accompanies the return of Christ. Moreover, all who "know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" are destroyed. Please list an unsaved person that are exempted from this description?


The Day of the destruction of this earth is not at the Day of the Lord's return, but some years after the 1000 year imprisonment of Satan. God is not slow in enacting His timeline, and according to Revelation 20, that timeline is clear.


How can this be? It doesn't say it is a local battle. It doesn't mention Megiddo. You have to make it that. Any way you have previously argued that Zech 14 relates to the Second Coming and that Zechariah 14:16 records many survivors from this battle. This just doesn't add up.

That too is where you are wrong. Revelation is cohesive and congruent in it's timeline. It is mentioned at least twice that the battle in chapter 19 is at one localized spot, which in the Hebrew is called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16). There will be no survivors of that battle, and the Lord does not destroy the entire world then, just as Revelation states. The world is drastically altered due to the earthquake that will level the cities of the nations as written in chapter 16, but it is not completely destroyed as you would suppose. In fact, 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 chronicles the progression of the destruction of the world, which doesn ot happen until after Death is completely defeated, as written in Revelation 20, when both death and hell are emptied of thier souls and tossed into the Lake, to join Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet. The only way this does not add up is when one does not pay attention to other verses in the Book of Revelation.


Zechariah 14:16 confirms: "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

Your millennium is corrupted my many of the beast's army!!!

Wrong yet again. The Beast's army is destroyed at Megiddo. All of it, with no survivors. The Lord then will judge the nations, and the ones that He decides to give mercy to will be ruled by Him during first the Millennium, and then during th time of Satan's rebellion with a rod of iron, as mentioned in both the Ot and Revelation 19:15. The Millennium is not corrupted by anyone, and just because you do not like the idea of the Lord being merciful does not mean that the Lord is like you. He will do as He will do, and the Bible is clear on what exactly He will do, whether you want to figurate that into oblivion or not.

third hero
Nov 30th 2008, 02:07 PM
Now as you can see the Lord comes and takes the church away. Throughout Revelation God deals with the wicked and He pours out His wrath upon them yet the Bible repeatedly tells us that the wicked did not repent.

1. Revelation 9:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=9&verse=20&version=50&context=verse)
But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.


2. Revelation 9:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=9&verse=21&version=50&context=verse)
And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.


3. Revelation 16:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=16&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.


4. Revelation 16:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=16&verse=11&version=50&context=verse)
They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

None of the wicked will survive when the Lord returns they all will be consumed by the word that proceeds out of the Lord mouth. They will be judged by the gospel message that they had heard and rejected. They will be cast into the pit awaiting their final judgment at the Great White Throne.


Luke 17:27-30
27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.


Revelation 19:11-16
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The armies of heaven I believe are made up of the church saints, tribulation saints and angels. The angels gather the elect to the Lord the saints just ride the white horse and return with the Lord. The Lord judges the wicked and casts them into outer darkness the pit.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


There will be the 144,000, Israel and those saints who overcame Satan and his attacks in their mortal bodies living in the millennial kingdom. The children to these people will grow up without Satan and his demon hoards tempting them. The Beast and the False Prophet will be in the lake of fire and Satan will be bound in the pit.


These children will grow up in the presence of the Lord but just like the first time the Lord was here you will have those willing to believe and obey and you will have those who disobey. The Lord will punish those who do not obey straight away as He rule with a rode of iron.


When Satan is let lose again he will deceive those from all nations who have chosen to disobey the Lord and they will form Satan’s army, they will all go up against the camp of the saints, and God will kill them all with fire that he sends down from heaven.


Revelation 20:7-10
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

WHo are the saints that come out of the Great Tribulation as mentioned in Revelation 7? Also, why are they separate from the 144,000 if the tribulation saints are the 144,000?

Another question. Who are the children of Israel in Revelation 12:17 that Satan focuses his wrath on, and who are the saints that the beast attacks in Revelations 13:7 if they are not the church?

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. -Revelation 12:17.

These people already have the testimony of Lord Jesus when the dragon attacks them. So I ask one more time, who are they if they are not the church?

Another question. Who are the ones that the Lord is talking to when He gave the advice that He did in Revelation 13:9-10 and 14:12-13 if they are not the same saints that are mentioned to be attacked in Revelation 12:17? Are they merely Jews or are they actually much more than the people from one nationality?

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ... -Revelation 7:9

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. -Revelation 7:14-15

Here's a thought. In order to come out of Great Tribulation, one must first be IN great tribulation. Think about that for a while.

third hero
Nov 30th 2008, 02:35 PM
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Men may not know the true extent of the wrath of God, but we DO know His pattern, for He left it intact for us to follow through the OT. 2Thessalonians 1 is not the first time that the writer mentions anything concerning the burning, fiery wrath of God, and yet, out of at least 20 examples of the contrary throughout the OT, you want to make 2 Thessalonians 1:4 into a factual statement. This is irony. Even if we use your method of letting scripture define other scripture, the OT examples of God's fiery wrath is clear. It only mentions the degree in which the Lord is angered, not what instrument He will use to implement His wrath. As we see in Revelation 19, the only instrument of His wrath is the double-edged sword in His mouth, that He will use to slay all of the Wicked who are gathered at the winepress of His wrath. (Revelation 14:17-20; 16:12-14, 16; 19:11-20). The fire that destroys the world doesn't even show up until after the 1000 year imprisonment of Satan is complete and Satan uses Gog and Magog to attack the Beloved City, where the Tribulation Saints camped. Therefore, either 2 Thessalonians 1:4 is wrong, or your interpretation of said verse is wrong. I am willing to hedge my bets on the latter, since the Bible does not contradict itself.


And here is the evidence:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. -Revelation 19:11-15

What we have is the Lord returning. In his eyes, the fire of the wrath of God, just as written in 2 Thessalonians 1:4. However, it is the double-edged sword that is in his mouth which is the instrument in which He will smite the nations. And in the same time, it is mentioned that He will rule them with a rod of iron. Also, in that very same verse, the place of the winepress of God's wrath, which is previously mentioned in Revelation 14 and is identified in Revelation 16:16, is used here. Therefore, what happens from that point til the end of the battle happens at the place of the winepress of God's wrath, Armagddon. (The valley of Megiddo).

So we see here that although the wrath of God is fiery, the instruments of His wrath is not fire, as you suppose. (unless you want to add the fire onto the sword that is in His mouth, a concept that clearly is not there in scripture).

Now let's see here, in this passage, Psalm 2 was invoked (rule the nations with a rod of iron), 2 Thessalonians 1:4 as well as Revelation 14:16-20 AND 16:12-14,16 was invoked. All of those verses give credence to this prophecy in chapter 19. Coincidence? Nope.

wpm
Nov 30th 2008, 07:38 PM
wpm , if you don't back down on the simplest of points , that Satan does have an effect , then this discussion is not going anywhere. I don't see the purpose of all those verses you quote when I've already agreed with you on the nature of man. After agreeing with you I specifically asked if you could at least concede that Satan does have an effect. By your lack of acknowledgement of this basic point it seems that you are arguing with the bible and not me , because the bible is clear that Satan has an effect on mankind. Why not just concede this small point to show some degree of conciliation? It won't completely ruin your point but will show that there is a point to this discussion ,a sharing of PoV , and acknowledgement of biblical truth being foremeost in this discussion, rather than sticking to one's own PoV no matter what the evidence.


The point you made on Satan having influence is a point we all accept. I wasn't ignoring it. I though you knew from my posts that I acknowledge that. I didn't know you wanted me to dwell on it. The fact is, you are missing the whole point of emphasis of it and the fact it is referring to the dark veil of ignorance being removed from the Gentiles (the ethnos). Scripture repeatedly speaks of what John is describing in Rev 20. There was a day coming when the darkness blinding the Gentiles would be lifted with the Gospel advance to all nations.

Just like blindness and darkness are attributed to the Gentiles prior to the cross, it didn’t in anyway mean that every single Gentile was blind and in darkness. Prior to Christ’s earthly ministry the heathen nations were viewed as being ignorant and therefore outside of God’s plan of salvation. Could I suggest this was simply a general observation about the overall condition of the Gentiles as a whole, not an attempt to represent every single Gentile? Even though this is a repeated truth and a broad statement if taken literal would negate the salvation of Abel, Noah, Abraham, Ruth (Ruth 1:16), the widow women of Zarephath that entertained Elijah (1 Kings 17:24), Rahab the harlot and “all her kindred” (Joshua 6:23-25), Naaman (2 Kings 5:15), the Queen of Sheba (Matthew 12:42), and the inhabitants of the Gentile city of Ninevah (Jonah 3:5).

Were these not Gentiles? Where these not “God's people”? The fact is this general assertion did not apply to every single Gentile. Likewise, when Scripture speak about the enlightenment of the Gentiles and the removal of the deception it doesn’t mean that every Gentile will be saved, but that the Gospel message and opportunity would be extended to them as a whole – just like Israel experienced in the Old Testament.

Let me illustrate.

In Matthew 12 we see the religious Jews rejecting Christ. Matthew 12:14-22 records, “Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust. Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.”

Christ’s rejection by his own house (Israel) saw Him turn to the Gentiles and the formerly outcast. He was now going to invade the devil’s house and acquire a spoil. Immediately after the Jews turned on Him in this story He delivers one of Satan’s household – a demon possessed man – thus illustrating that there was a darkened people out there that would come to faith in Christ. He used this man who belonged to the devil’s own house (kingdom) to impress the direction of the Gospel from hereon. Now, my main point is this: this reading expressly declares “in his name shall the Gentiles trust.” Using the Premil argument: all the Gentiles must trust, or this cannot apply today. What I am saying is, if you were to apply this argument namely that the fact that the vast bulk of Gentiles still remain deceived is evidence why we can’t be in the millennium now then we must (if we are consistent) apply the same rule to this statement to show that it can’t be relevant to today. It cannot relate to the here-and-now because the majority of Gentiles still don’t trust God. Of course that would be preposterous. Such a statement is a general reference to the removal of the veil deceiving the Gentiles as a whole after the cross.

Paul draws several of the Old Testament prophecies, relating to the removing of this global deception upon the ethnos, together in Romans 15:8-12 and shows how this began with the life, death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent evangelism of the early Church. He declares, “Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the ethnos (Strong’s 1484) Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written (in 1 Samuel 22:50), For this cause I will confess to thee among the ethnos (Strong’s 1484) Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith (in Psalm 18:49), Rejoice, ye ethnos (Strong’s 1484) Gentiles, with his people. And again (in Deuteronomy 32:43), Praise the Lord, all ye ethnos (Strong’s 1484) Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again (in Isaiah 11:10), Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the ethnos (Strong’s 1484) Gentiles; in him shall the ethnos (Strong’s 1484) Gentiles trust.”

The Old Testament writers predicted that there was a time coming when the Gentiles would accept Christ, glorify His name and trust Him. Now, here is an important question. Did all the Gentiles surrender to Him? Using the Premil argument on Rev 20:2 they must. After all, this reading makes a blanket statement they would believe, without qualification. Indeed, did that mean that the majority of Gentiles would do so? Of course not. Did that mean that the majority of Gentile nations would turn to God? Of course not. Did that mean that the majority of Gentiles would turn from heathenism? Of course not. This was talking about the general enlightenment of the Gentiles.

wpm
Nov 30th 2008, 07:42 PM
wpm , those two verses from Thessalonians have already been dealt with. Rev 19 was dealt with in the post above.

Comparisons aren't always identical , so regarding Luke 17 we have two comparisons , that with Noah and that with Lot. The second coming being compared to these two events fits my PoV perfectly:

1) Noah - all inhabitants of earth destroyed
2) Lot - all the inhabitants of just two cities, Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed.


It is the destruction that befell the lone city of Sodom that Jesus equates the fate of the earth at His return to. He doesn't compare the happenings of the earth at the end to the whole earth in Lot's day but rather the calamity that befell Sodom. What happened in Sodom will one day engulf the whole earth. All the wicked will be destroyed by fire. This agrees with Revelation 19.



The second coming , according to Joel , is initiated by Jesus' response to the prayers of Jews when Israel is attacked by armies. Jesus comes to finish this war and gather His saints , and to establish Jerusalem as foremost among earth. These armies are completely and utterly destroyed which can be compared to Sodom and Gomorrah, localised destruction for the enemies of God. But when Jesus comes the fear of God comes upon the whole earth , for Jesus rules with an iron rod. The great earthquake will effect all on the face of the earth, and they will all know their mortality compared to the resurrected saints that rule over them. Their spiritual destruction is sealed on that day, and their physical loss is extreme if they survive, hence the comparison with Noah.


Joel says, "A fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns; the land is like the Garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; surely nothing shall escape them" (Joel 2:3).

Malachi says, "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up" (Malachi 4:1).

Paul says, ".....in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (II Thessalonians 1:8).

Peter says, "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up" (II Peter 3:10).

John says, “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns …out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords”(Revelation 19:11-16).

wpm
Nov 30th 2008, 07:59 PM
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Point completely missed. Just like the days of Noah, so will it be on the days (plural) of the Son of Man. This means that the day of the Lord is not one day as you suppose, but more than one day. Otherwise, it would be called, "the day (singular) of the Lord", which in Luke 17 it is not. It is the days (plural) of the Lord. Also, just like unto the days of Noah, the destruction of the people did not happen in one day, but 40. The rains lasted fourty days, and all that were on the earth then perished, not instantly when the rains started to fall, but by the end of those forty days. We see this pattern throughout the OT, and that was when the Lord judged the nations atr least once per generation. This, unlike your presupposition, is irrefutable.

In my view you are disagreeing with what Christ is saying. He is plainly saying that "the days" preceding the Coming of Christ equate with "the days" preceding the destruction in Sodom and Noah's earth. Likewise, "the day" of the two destructions parallel "the day" of Christ's appearing. It is Jesus that said "the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all" not Amils. He couldn't be clearer.


You can not have it both ways. Luke 17:26 makes the days of the Lord plural, and just because the Lord mentions Sodom, it does not negate th e FACT that the Lord said that the days (Plural) of Him are likened to the days (plural) of Noah.

Jesus clearly and unambiguously said, “as it was in the days of Noe,so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed”(Luke 17:26-30).

You are missing the comparison between the days (plural) before and the day of annihilation of all the wicked and the day (singular) of each destruction also. This is crystal clear. We shouldn't have to change Scripture to let our theology fit. We should change our theology to let Scripture fit.


Wrong yet again. Jesus makes the comparisons between His return and the days of both Noah and Sodom. His point is that when H returns, He will judge the nations and remove the wicked, just like Matthew 25:31-46 states and Revelation 19:11-20 confirms.

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked. Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the Second Coming. He deliberates and graphically connected the happenings of both these former days of judgment to the day of His return. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).


What happened on both accounts? Were there not survivors? Did God not spare Noah and Lot? Were they worthy of being spared? Take a look at Lot, for instance. Do you think that incest is something that God approves? And yet, He had mercy on Lot, just like He mentions in Matthew 25:31-46 that of the nations that are left, he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy on. This concept was actually predicted by Daniel in Daniel 7:11-12. It is only the amil brand that equates figurations to reality and attempts to take reality and figurate it. This is not what the Premil brand does. We take scripture as is, as it is written. When we look at a passage, we look at the context of that passage to determine whether a passage has symbolism in it or not. The Amil brand seems to attempt to manipulate scripture into it's own likeness, figurating things that ought not to be figurated, and making reality things that are obviously figurations, like the "fiery wrath" example that I have shown earlier in this thread.

Please answer these questions:

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

After all, this is the actual subject that Christ is speaking of.

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears.


Again, time after time, the Lord ended up sparing people, just like in the time of Noah and Lot, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. I am not about to call God unrighteous just because He does not want to end the world when His Son returns. I find Him just, simply because He, while in His wrath, will still spare humanity from not only the fullness of HIs wrath (Which is absolute destruction), but also the influence of the Evil one, (Revelation 20:1-3). I find it rather just for God to send His Son to show humanity what the world would have been like if only Adam had not sinned against Him. Not only do I find the Millennium just, but I find it scriptural, as Revelation 20:4-10 proves irrevocably.

Men may not know the true extent of the wrath of God, but we DO know His pattern, for He left it intact for us to follow through the OT.

All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

BroRog
Nov 30th 2008, 08:16 PM
It is the destruction that befell the lone city of Sodom that Jesus equates the fate of the earth at His return to. He doesn't compare the happenings of the earth at the end to the whole earth in Lot's day but rather the calamity that befell Sodom. What happened in Sodom will one day engulf the whole earth. All the wicked will be destroyed by fire. This agrees with Revelation 19.



Joel says, "A fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns; the land is like the Garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; surely nothing shall escape them" (Joel 2:3).

Malachi says, "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up" (Malachi 4:1).

Paul says, ".....in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (II Thessalonians 1:8).

Peter says, "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up" (II Peter 3:10).

John says, “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns …out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords”(Revelation 19:11-16).


Jesus compares his return to both the time of the flood and the time of the destruction of Sodom.

His comparison centers on the fact that the people were not prepared for the judgment that came upon them. That is, the judgment came as a surprise, even though both Noah, and Lot warned of the impending doom. In either case, we find the people going about their everyday, normal lives. They ate, they drank, they married, they bought, they sold, they planted; they went about their normal lives as if no danger existed.

By comparison, he says, at the time of his return, people will be going about their normal lives as if he wasn't coming. But, when he does come, people will not need to convince each other that Jesus has come because his coming will be as obvious as a flash of lighting. He tells the Pharisees that they won't need to look for signs of his coming because he will come without "observation."

Peter repeats this theme in his second epistle in which he says mockers will come saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." He reminds them of the fact that even though the world existed for a very long time, the flood came on those living in the time of Noah.

Jesus and the Apostles warn us against becoming complacent with our current circumstances, and even if time has passed for millennia without any sign of his coming, he will come suddenly while everything is still looking normal.

wpm
Nov 30th 2008, 08:55 PM
Jesus compares his return to both the time of the flood and the time of the destruction of Sodom.

His comparison centers on the fact that the people were not prepared for the judgment that came upon them. That is, the judgment came as a surprise, even though both Noah, and Lot warned of the impending doom. In either case, we find the people going about their everyday, normal lives. They ate, they drank, they married, they bought, they sold, they planted; they went about their normal lives as if no danger existed.

By comparison, he says, at the time of his return, people will be going about their normal lives as if he wasn't coming. But, when he does come, people will not need to convince each other that Jesus has come because his coming will be as obvious as a flash of lighting. He tells the Pharisees that they won't need to look for signs of his coming because he will come without "observation."

Peter repeats this theme in his second epistle in which he says mockers will come saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." He reminds them of the fact that even though the world existed for a very long time, the flood came on those living in the time of Noah.

Jesus and the Apostles warn us against becoming complacent with our current circumstances, and even if time has passed for millennia without any sign of his coming, he will come suddenly while everything is still looking normal.

Please answer these questions:

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

After all, this is the actual subject that Christ is speaking of.

wpm
Nov 30th 2008, 09:02 PM
Wrong yet again. The Beast's army is destroyed at Megiddo. All of it, with no survivors. The Lord then will judge the nations, and the ones that He decides to give mercy to will be ruled by Him during first the Millennium, and then during th time of Satan's rebellion with a rod of iron, as mentioned in both the Ot and Revelation 19:15. The Millennium is not corrupted by anyone, and just because you do not like the idea of the Lord being merciful does not mean that the Lord is like you. He will do as He will do, and the Bible is clear on what exactly He will do, whether you want to figurate that into oblivion or not.

But Zechariah 14:16 confirms: "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

Who is this army that comes against Jerusalem if it isn't the beast's army??? You have not addressed that.

DIZZY
Dec 1st 2008, 03:09 AM
Hi Third hero,
I have answered both your posts in these next posts.

The 144,000 are only a small part of saints that survive during the tribulation. The reason they are different and survive is because they are seal by God.

The other saints mentioned in Revelation 7 do not have the seal of God in their forehead yet they are saved through the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:1-5
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit for they are without fault before the throne of God.



Another question. Who are the children of Israel in Revelation 12:17 that Satan focuses his wrath on, and who are the saints that the beast attacks in Revelations 13:7 if they are not the church?


To fully answer the above question I need to include this question as well.

The saints that come out of the tribulation period mentioned in Rev 7 are those who are saved by the preaching of the 144,000, two witnesses and the angels flying about with the everlasting gospel message.

These people know where there troubles are coming from for in Rev 6 the kings of the earth and all the peoples ask the rocks and the mountains to fall on them and hide them from the one who sits on the throne.

Revelation 6:15-17
15And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Revelation 7:1-3
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

So the 144,000 are sealed just like those who were sealed in the forehead in Ezekiel 9.

Ezekiel 9
1 Then He called out in my hearing with a loud voice, saying, “Let those who have charge over the city draw near, each with a deadly weapon in his hand.” 2 And suddenly six men came from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with his battle-ax in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen and had a writer’s inkhorn at his side. They went in and stood beside the bronze altar.
3 Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub, where it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer’s inkhorn at his side; 4 and the LORD said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.”
5 To the others He said in my hearing, “Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. 6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple.


Now these 144,000 are the children of the woman in the wilderness, Satan can’t harm them so he turns to those who have been saved through the testimony of Jesus. As I said above during the tribulation period you have 144,000 the two witnesses and the angel flying through the air with the everlasting gospel message being preached to the wicked. There are multitudes saved from all nations during this time.

Then a question is asked, who is able to stand against the wrath of God? We find the answer to that in Rev 7, it tells us the 144,000 are able to stand and they are sealed by God before the tribulation begins. Now if the church was there would it not say the 144,000 and my faithful servants, but it doesn’t why?

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=1&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,



And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. -Revelation 12:17.

These people already have the testimony of Lord Jesus when the dragon attacks them. So I ask one more time, who are they if they are not the church?


I believe I have answered this question in the above statements. But once again, these people that are saved are the 144,000. Remember the 144,000 were sealed before the tribulation came upon the earth.
The 144,000 are Israel’s children aswell, they come from the twelve tribes of Judah.



Another question. Who are the ones that the Lord is talking to when He gave the advice that He did in Revelation 13:9-10 and 14:12-13 if they are not the same saints that are mentioned to be attacked in Revelation 12:17? Are they merely Jews or are they actually much more than the people from one nationality?


You ask who is the lord talking to in Revelation 13:9-10 and 14:12-13
The Lord is speaking to the saints from all nations that are saved during the tribulation period. Remember Israel is hidden from Satan’s attacks. I have no doubt there would be Jews among the Gentiles who have been saved during this tribulation period aswell.

In Revelation 12:17 Satan went to make war against the rest of the woman’s offspring the 144,000. He could not touch them for they were sealed by God, but he could attack those who were saved by their preaching.



After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ... -Revelation 7:9

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. -Revelation 7:14-15



I believe these are the ones that are saved during the hour of testing which comes on the world.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

The church does not need to be tested for she is a faithful servant.

DIZZY
Dec 1st 2008, 03:10 AM
Here's a thought. In order to come out of Great Tribulation, one must first be IN great tribulation. Think about that for a while.


I have contemplated this for quite some time and I come up with the same conclusion every time. Those that come out of the great tribulation are those who were saved from the preaching of the 144,000, two witnesses and the angel with the everlasting gospel message. No matter how hard Satan tried to stop the message from being preached he failed and there were people saved from every nation.

Not everyone believed though, you still had those whose hearts were hard and they still did not repent of their wicked ways and they took the mark of the beast and worshiped him. These will suffer the punishment when Christ returns.

Satan will not be able to kill all those who believe and are saved during this period of tribulation, those he does not kill go into the millennial kingdom alive. These are the ones from all the nations spoken of in Zechariah 14:16-21

Zechariah 14:16-21
16And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

The people who go into the millennial kingdom are not wicked they are those who have been saved through the testimony of Jesus Christ. Christ destroys the wicked that came up against Jerusalem and the only ones left from those nations are the saved. It is the saved from every nation that go into the millennial kingdom.
I do not need to read your blogs to understand the word of God. Does not the Holy Spirit lead us into all understanding of God’s word all we need do is to ask for the knowledge and understanding and it shall be given us.

BroRog
Dec 1st 2008, 05:15 AM
Please answer these questions:

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

After all, this is the actual subject that Christ is speaking of.

The relevant correlation between the second coming of Jesus Christ, the Flood event, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, is the zeitgeist, or the mood of the times. He says just as in Noah's day, "they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark . . ." In this he highlights the relevant similarity between his day and Noah's day. And again, he repeats the same thing with his comparison to Lot's day. Speaking of Lot's day he says, "they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building . . ." In each case, the examples attempt to illustrate the fact that the people who were destroyed acted completely normal as if nothing at all were going to happen.

He gives these two examples to illustrate his point to both the Pharisees and the disciples that the people living during that time will not anticipate his revelation as the son of man in the least.

Now, to answer your question Jesus says that the flood came and "destroyed them all", excepting of course, those aboard the ark. And he says that the fire came down and destroyed all those in Sodom.

But if you are going to make this a post-millennial event, you are going to lose this as a refutation that there are survivors during the millennium. It only proves that there won't be survivors after the millennium.

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 05:23 AM
I have contemplated this for quite some time and I come up with the same conclusion every time. Those that come out of the great tribulation are those who were saved from the preaching of the 144,000, two witnesses and the angel with the everlasting gospel message. No matter how hard Satan tried to stop the message from being preached he failed and there were people saved from every nation.

Not everyone believed though, you still had those whose hearts were hard and they still did not repent of their wicked ways and they took the mark of the beast and worshiped him. These will suffer the punishment when Christ returns.

Satan will not be able to kill all those who believe and are saved during this period of tribulation, those he does not kill go into the millennial kingdom alive. These are the ones from all the nations spoken of in Zechariah 14:16-21

Zechariah 14:16-21
16And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

The people who go into the millennial kingdom are not wicked they are those who have been saved through the testimony of Jesus Christ. Christ destroys the wicked that came up against Jerusalem and the only ones left from those nations are the saved. It is the saved from every nation that go into the millennial kingdom.
I do not need to read your blogs to understand the word of God. Does not the Holy Spirit lead us into all understanding of God’s word all we need do is to ask for the knowledge and understanding and it shall be given us.

Referring to the highlighted portion of the verse above, how can the saved be so disobedient that they are punished with no rain when they miss their annual journey to Jerusalem? These nations that are left don't sound like the saved to me.

Rev 20 says that the tribulation saints , those that are around when the beast is around but refuse to get the mark , are RESURRECTED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE TRIBULATION. These same blessed ones are the ones that reign with Christ.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection

Yet verses in Zechariah and Isaiah refer to old men and women in Jerusalem during the tribulation , they refer to nations being ruled by an iron rod, and having no rain for disobedience. These do not sound like the resurrected tribulation saints to me, because they grow old so seem to be mortal.

third hero
Dec 1st 2008, 05:32 AM
But Zechariah 14:16 confirms: "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

Who is this army that comes against Jerusalem if it isn't the beast's army??? You have not addressed that.

I didn't need to. The scripture deals with it all by itself. All you needed to do was to read the previous 4 verses.

And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. Zechariah 14:12

And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. -verses 14-16.

I didn't think of this before, but your answer lies in the very verse that YOU presented. As you can see, the armies that are defeated are indeed the nations that attacked Jerusalem before He returned. This is a classic reference back to the beginning of the chapter. Hence the term, "the nations that fought against Jerusalem" (Zechariah 14:1-3).

Now, who are those nations? Well, check out Ezekiel 38. They are none other than the armies of the Beast, those same armies that will be squashed at Megiddo.

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 05:49 AM
The relevant correlation between the second coming of Jesus Christ, the Flood event, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, is the zeitgeist, or the mood of the times. He says just as in Noah's day, "they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark . . ." In this he highlights the relevant similarity between his day and Noah's day. And again, he repeats the same thing with his comparison to Lot's day. Speaking of Lot's day he says, "they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building . . ." In each case, the examples attempt to illustrate the fact that the people who were destroyed acted completely normal as if nothing at all were going to happen.

He gives these two examples to illustrate his point to both the Pharisees and the disciples that the people living during that time will not anticipate his revelation as the son of man in the least.

Now, to answer your question Jesus says that the flood came and "destroyed them all", excepting of course, those aboard the ark. And he says that the fire came down and destroyed all those in Sodom.

But if you are going to make this a post-millennial event, you are going to lose this as a refutation that there are survivors during the millennium. It only proves that there won't be survivors after the millennium.

Actually untrue, you are actually trying to use a Postmil argument to defend a Premil flaw. That doesn't work. :lol:

You convieniantly label the eating and drinking detail as "the day" (singular) when it is actually part of the preceding "the days" (plural) description. Read it for yourself:

“as it was in the days of Noe,so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage"

Ok, it is "the days" (plural).

Then the detail about "the day" (singular):

"until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all."

We don't need to change the Lord's words to say something different. It is crystal clear that all the wicked were destroyed in the day the flood came.

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 05:55 AM
I didn't need to. The scripture deals with it all by itself. All you needed to do was to read the previous 4 verses.

And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. Zechariah 14:12

And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. -verses 14-16.

I didn't think of this before, but your answer lies in the very verse that YOU presented. As you can see, the armies that are defeated are indeed the nations that attacked Jerusalem before He returned. This is a classic reference back to the beginning of the chapter. Hence the term, "the nations that fought against Jerusalem" (Zechariah 14:1-3).

Now, who are those nations? Well, check out Ezekiel 38. They are none other than the armies of the Beast, those same armies that will be squashed at Megiddo.

But you just admitted that the beast's army is wiped (as per you opinion of Rev 20). Now you are saying some survive. I am a little confused. Who are included in the beast's army and what is their end-time activities? Please furnish me with clear Scripture.

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 06:02 AM
Jesus compares his return to both the time of the flood and the time of the destruction of Sodom.

His comparison centers on the fact that the people were not prepared for the judgment that came upon them. That is, the judgment came as a surprise, even though both Noah, and Lot warned of the impending doom. In either case, we find the people going about their everyday, normal lives. They ate, they drank, they married, they bought, they sold, they planted; they went about their normal lives as if no danger existed.

By comparison, he says, at the time of his return, people will be going about their normal lives as if he wasn't coming. But, when he does come, people will not need to convince each other that Jesus has come because his coming will be as obvious as a flash of lighting. He tells the Pharisees that they won't need to look for signs of his coming because he will come without "observation."

Peter repeats this theme in his second epistle in which he says mockers will come saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." He reminds them of the fact that even though the world existed for a very long time, the flood came on those living in the time of Noah.

Jesus and the Apostles warn us against becoming complacent with our current circumstances, and even if time has passed for millennia without any sign of his coming, he will come suddenly while everything is still looking normal.

I agree, however, you mention everything apart from the fact the actual warning relates to the impending total destruction of the wicked.

He says, “as it was in the days of Noe,so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot;they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed”(Luke 17:26-30).

See the correlation between the approaching days of apathy and indifference and the sudden and total destruction of the wicked. There is no getting round this.

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 06:04 AM
The point you made on Satan having influence is a point we all accept. I wasn't ignoring it. I though you knew from my posts that I acknowledge that. I didn't know you wanted me to dwell on it. The fact is, you are missing the whole point of emphasis of it and the fact it is referring to the dark veil of ignorance being removed from the Gentiles (the ethnos). Scripture repeatedly speaks of what John is describing in Rev 20. There was a day coming when the darkness blinding the Gentiles would be lifted with the Gospel advance to all nations.


Well thanks for acknowledging the point about Satan, the way you expressed yourself it really seemed that you didn't acknowledge it.

wpm , I haven't missed this point at all. I agree with you that we are in a period when the gospel is going out to the gentiles and this is core to my end-times belief, especially with regard to Daniel 9:27.

I just don't agree with your associating this truth with the Revelation verse concerning Satan being bound in the bottomless pit for 1000 years, and we have already discussed both PoV regarding this.

To make your view fit , that we are already in the millenium, you have to put Satan in the bottomless pit during this age, hence your need to insist that the doctrine of the gospel going out into the nations is a reflection that Satan is bound , when I have already showed you verses that Satan is still having an influence in this age.

Also you would have to have those believers that are resurrected before the millenium being resurrected again at the end of the millenium because you believe thatwe are physically resurrected at the end of the millenium. BUT, Rev 20 states that "rest of the dead" were resurrected at the end of the millenium , not the original ones that were resurrected at the first resurrection.

You would also have to have the beast being around at the same time as the loosing of Satan , because you believe the Second coming happens at the end of the millenium. Yet Rev 19 says the second coming occurs when the beast is destroyed and cast into the lake of fire, yet Revelation 20 says that Satan only joins the beast in the lake of fire 1000 years later. There is a 1000 year separation period between the war involving the beast and the war involving Satan being released from the bottomless pit. Satan is only cast into the lake of fire 1000 years after the beast.

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 06:14 AM
Well thanks for acknowledging the point about Satan, the way you expressed yourself it really seemed that you didn't acknowledge it.

wpm , I haven't missed this point at all. I agree with you that we are in a period when the gospel is going out to the gentiles and this is core to my end-times belief, especially with regard to Daniel 9:27.

I just don't agree with your associating this truth with the Revelation verse concerning Satan being bound in the bottomless pit for 1000 years, and we have already discussed both PoV regarding this.

To make your view fit , that we are already in the millenium, you have to put Satan in the bottomless pit during this age, hence your need to insist that the doctrine of the gospel going out into the nations is a reflection that Satan is bound , when I have already showed you verses that Satan is still having an influence in this age.

I have covered this matter many times on this board. He is in a spiritual prison on this earth. His boundaries are carefully defined by God. The abyss is not a physical pit because Satan is not a physical being. The kingdom of God is now restrained since the cross. They have been in chains since the earthly ministry of Christ.

Revelation 9:11 tells us that Satan is already in this demonic pit “had a king over them, which is the angel of the abussos (or) abyss, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

In piecing the apocalyptic jigsaw together we find that this dark spiritual dungeon currently has a king over it. This gives us insight into the fact that the abyss must be speaking of a kingdom. Moreover, that kingdom is imprisoned in its own darkness. The fact that there is a king currently ruling tells us that the abyss must contain a kingdom.

DurbanDude, Jude supports the view of a current binding of the whole kingdom of darkness, in v 6, when he says,“the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting desmois (or)chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

I done a study of Jude and recently wrote this: Jude like John in Revelation 20:1 uses literal terminologies to in some way impress the restricted spiritual condition of Satan and the kingdom of darkness since the Cross. The literalist would do well to remember that Satan and his emissaries are spiritual-beings. Angels and demons are spiritual creations, not physical mortal creatures. It is only logical then to recognize that the binding of spiritual-beings must of necessity be executed in a spiritual way not a literal physical way, as Premils argue. After all, the same God that made them spiritual must then spiritually bind them in order to curb their influence.

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates with Jude v6, saying, “God spared not the angels that sinned, but tartaroo (or)‘cast them down to hell’, and delivered them seiraís (or)‘intochains’ of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

This passage is an obvious mirror of Jude verse 6, describing the spiritual restrains that the whole demonic realm is currently subject to, up until the judgment. It is worth noting that this passage is the only place in Scripture where we find the Greek words tartaroo (Strong’s 5020) and seiraís (Strong’s 4577). The word tartaroo in the original does not refer to hell (Hades) but rather to the abyss. In fact, the Greek word tartaroo comes from tartaros which refers to the deepest part of the abyss. Moreover, the Greek word seiraís simply means bonds. This text powerfully confirms the Amillennial view that Satan’s demonic kingdom is already bound in the invisible spiritual realm of the abyss.

jeffweeder
Dec 1st 2008, 06:18 AM
Actually untrue, you are actually trying to use a Postmil argument to defend a Premil flaw. That doesn't work. :lol:

You convieniantly label the eating and drinking detail as "the day" (singular) when it is actually part of the preceding "the days" (plural) description. Read it for yourself:

“as it was in the days of Noe,so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage"

Ok, it is "the days" (plural).

Then the detail about "the day" (singular):

"until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all."

We don't need to change the Lord's words to say something different. It is crystal clear that all the wicked were destroyed in the day the flood came.

Amen Paul......
I dont know what else to say...im weary

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 06:21 AM
Also you would have to have those believers that are resurrected before the millenium being resurrected again at the end of the millenium because you believe thatwe are physically resurrected at the end of the millenium. BUT, Rev 20 states that "rest of the dead" were resurrected at the end of the millenium , not the original ones that were resurrected at the first resurrection.


The rest of the dead are the wicked in hell right now. They couldn't be resurrected now.



You would also have to have the beast being around at the same time as the loosing of Satan , because you believe the Second coming happens at the end of the millenium. Yet Rev 19 says the second coming occurs when the beast is destroyed and cast into the lake of fire, yet Revelation 20 says that Satan only joins the beast in the lake of fire 1000 years later. There is a 1000 year separation period between the war involving the beast and the war involving Satan being released from the bottomless pit. Satan is only cast into the lake of fire 1000 years after the beast.


But Amils believe Rev 19 is the 6th of 7 parallels. That is why you miss the fact that all are judged one by one at Christ's Coming, albeit the beast and the false prophet proceed the devil into the lake of fire. There is no 1,000 yrs separation. That is a Premil belief.

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 06:32 AM
It is the destruction that befell the lone city of Sodom that Jesus equates the fate of the earth at His return to. He doesn't compare the happenings of the earth at the end to the whole earth in Lot's day but rather the calamity that befell Sodom. What happened in Sodom will one day engulf the whole earth. All the wicked will be destroyed by fire. This agrees with Revelation 19.



Joel says, "A fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns; the land is like the Garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; surely nothing shall escape them" (Joel 2:3).

Malachi says, "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up" (Malachi 4:1).

Paul says, ".....in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (II Thessalonians 1:8).

Peter says, "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up" (II Peter 3:10).

John says, “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns …out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords”(Revelation 19:11-16).

I like the answer by Bro Rog , concerning the comparison with Noah.

Joel 2 can be interpreted in many ways , but does just concern Israel and not the whole world.

I don't see any contradiction in the other verses , they agree with both our doctrines, our doctrines agree that when Jesus comes this will be a dramatic day of wrath for this earth, the enemies of God gathered in Israel will be burnt up, Jesus will come in flaming fire and there will be great wrath on earth. And our doctrines agree that the whole world will be burnt up at the end of the millenium and there will be a New earth.

Where we differ is that I say this is two seperate events 1000 years apart and you are saying this is one event.

Referring to the part I have highlighted above, from Rev 19, the same nations that Jesus "smites" are the nations ruled with an iron rod. This does indicate a survival of nations and a need for discipline of nations(iron rod), which just does not fit into your post-millenial scenario.So once again a verse the same verse you use to support your view actual supports the pre-mill view.

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 06:39 AM
The rest of the dead are the wicked in hell right now. They couldn't be resurrected now. .

wpm , you misunderstand me here. You are saying that the saints are spiritually resurrected with Christ before the millenium, then are phsically resurrected at the end of the millenium. This PoV describes two resurrections for the saints.

The bible however states that the blessed are resurrected before the millenium , and the "rest of the dead" are resurrected at the end of the millenium. This makes your belief impossible, they are two separate groups so you can't have those participating in the first resurrection also being part of the "rest of the dead". So even though you try to give a spiritual explanation for the first resurrection described in Revelation (which to me is referring to a physical resurrection of dead believers), even this spiritual explanation does not fit.

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 06:46 AM
I like the answer by Bro Rog , concerning the comparison with Noah.

Joel 2 can be interpreted in many ways , but does just concern Israel and not the whole world.

I don't see any contradiction in the other verses , they agree with both our doctrines, our doctrines agree that when Jesus comes this will be a dramatic day of wrath for this earth, the enemies of God gathered in Israel will be burnt up, Jesus will come in flaming fire and there will be great wrath on earth. And our doctrines agree that the whole world will be burnt up at the end of the millenium and there will be a New earth.

Where we differ is that I say this is two seperate events 1000 years apart and you are saying this is one event.

Referring to the part I have highlighted above, from Rev 19, the same nations that Jesus "smites" are the nations ruled with an iron rod. This does indicate a survival of nations and a need for discipline of nations(iron rod), which just does not fit into your post-millenial scenario.

Premil says there are 1,000 yrs between the righteous and the wicked being raised/judged but can never give one text including Rev 19 and 20 to support it. Here is your opportunity to back up your view of Rev 20. Let us see any other passages that in any small way lends credence to this belief. Amils put a great emphasis on corroboration - namely interpreting Scripture with Scripture. They see this as Premils greatest weakness. So go for it. The ball is in your court.

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" then destroyed?

2. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years?

3. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future physical resurrections (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years?

Jesus is the first resurrection

I have shown much corroboration that Jesus is the first resurrection, you simply dismiss this. I have never seen one Premil address these clear passages. The reason I believe because they negate the Premil paradigm in a very dynamic way. Jesus is the first resurrection according to the Word of God,. A school of thought must submit to clear Scripture.

Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should bethe first resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (ethnos Strong’s 1484)."

Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstbornfrom the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead,and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

I have provbided clear proof Jesus is the first resurrection. Show me support for your belief that we are with other Scripture? It is this lack of corroboration that causes many to question Premil and ultimately abandon it like many on this board - like me.

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 06:57 AM
wpm , you misunderstand me here. You are saying that the saints are spiritually resurrected with Christ before the millenium, then are phsically resurrected at the end of the millenium. This PoV describes two resurrections for the saints.

The bible however states that the blessed are resurrected before the millenium , and the "rest of the dead" are resurrected at the end of the millenium. This makes your belief impossible, they are two separate groups so you can't have those participating in the first resurrection also being part of the "rest of the dead". So even though you try to give a spiritual explanation for the first resurrection described in Revelation (which to me is referring to a physical resurrection of dead believers), even this spiritual explanation does not fit.

I don't think you are comprehending the Amil position. The saints reigning in Rev 20 are the dead in Christ now in this Gospel millennial period in heaven. Their entry into the presence of God upon death has never been viewed as a resurrection by any orthodox evangelicals. The reigning with Christ is not the first resurrection, but all those who have experienced the first resurrection (Christ's great victory). They are awaiting the resurrection of the just.

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 07:05 AM
But Amils believe Rev 19 is the 6th of 7 parallels. That is why you miss the fact that all are judged one by one at Christ's Coming, albeit the beast and the false prophet proceed the devil into the lake of fire. There is no 1,000 yrs separation. That is a Premil belief.

What you actually believe is that the saints that are killed during the rule of the beast will be resurrected a few years later. This is when Jesus comes, and Jesus will destroy the beast and set up the New Earth.

Yet you somehow manage to spiritualise this actual belief to fit into a bible verse that says the blessed who did not worship the beast will be resurrected and reign with Christ for 1000 years until the New Earth is set up. Sounds a bit far-fetched, add that to the impossibility of two resurrections for the saints and it does not sound like a valid interpretation.

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 07:10 AM
I have covered this matter many times on this board. He is in a spiritual prison on this earth. His boundaries are carefully defined by God. The abyss is not a physical pit because Satan is not a physical being. The kingdom of God is now restrained since the cross. They have been in chains since the earthly ministry of Christ.

Revelation 9:11 tells us that Satan is already in this demonic pit “had a king over them, which is the angel of the abussos (or) abyss, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

In piecing the apocalyptic jigsaw together we find that this dark spiritual dungeon currently has a king over it. This gives us insight into the fact that the abyss must be speaking of a kingdom. Moreover, that kingdom is imprisoned in its own darkness. The fact that there is a king currently ruling tells us that the abyss must contain a kingdom.

DurbanDude, Jude supports the view of a current binding of the whole kingdom of darkness, in v 6, when he says,“the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting desmois (or)chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

I done a study of Jude and recently wrote this: Jude like John in Revelation 20:1 uses literal terminologies to in some way impress the restricted spiritual condition of Satan and the kingdom of darkness since the Cross. The literalist would do well to remember that Satan and his emissaries are spiritual-beings. Angels and demons are spiritual creations, not physical mortal creatures. It is only logical then to recognize that the binding of spiritual-beings must of necessity be executed in a spiritual way not a literal physical way, as Premils argue. After all, the same God that made them spiritual must then spiritually bind them in order to curb their influence.

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates with Jude v6, saying, “God spared not the angels that sinned, but tartaroo (or)‘cast them down to hell’, and delivered them seiraís (or)‘intochains’ of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

This passage is an obvious mirror of Jude verse 6, describing the spiritual restrains that the whole demonic realm is currently subject to, up until the judgment. It is worth noting that this passage is the only place in Scripture where we find the Greek words tartaroo (Strong’s 5020) and seiraís (Strong’s 4577). The word tartaroo in the original does not refer to hell (Hades) but rather to the abyss. In fact, the Greek word tartaroo comes from tartaros which refers to the deepest part of the abyss. Moreover, the Greek word seiraís simply means bonds. This text powerfully confirms the Amillennial view that Satan’s demonic kingdom is already bound in the invisible spiritual realm of the abyss.

Rev 12 says that Satan is in two places until the end of the period of Satan's wrath:
Firstly in heaven
Secondly cast to earth.
There is no mention of Satan being in the bottomless pit.

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 07:23 AM
I don't think you are comprehending the Amil position. The saints reigning in Rev 20 are the dead in Christ now in this Gospel millennial period in heaven. Their entry into the presence of God upon death has never been viewed as a resurrection by any orthodox evangelicals. The reigning with Christ is not the first resurrection, but all those who have experienced the first resurrection (Christ's great victory). They are awaiting the resurrection of the just.

wpm, I notice you are answering everyone very quickly. Maybe this is why you keep misunderstanding me, my point is clear. I think we have both expressed our views, other readers will understand what I have said here. I have always understood your point here. Think about it , you have described the believers experiencing the first resurrection , yet you say these same believers participate in the physical resurrection at the end of the millenium.

Yet Revelation 20 says the believers that experience the first resurrection do not experience the other resurrection, only the "REST of the dead". The two groups are mutually exclusive. If you don't get the point, let's just leave it there.

third hero
Dec 1st 2008, 07:31 AM
Hi Third hero,
I have answered both your posts in these next posts.

The 144,000 are only a small part of saints that survive during the tribulation. The reason they are different and survive is because they are seal by God.

The other saints mentioned in Revelation 7 do not have the seal of God in their forehead yet they are saved through the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:1-5
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit for they are without fault before the throne of God.



To fully answer the above question I need to include this question as well.

The saints that come out of the tribulation period mentioned in Rev 7 are those who are saved by the preaching of the 144,000, two witnesses and the angels flying about with the everlasting gospel message.

These people know where there troubles are coming from for in Rev 6 the kings of the earth and all the peoples ask the rocks and the mountains to fall on them and hide them from the one who sits on the throne.

Revelation 6:15-17
15And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Revelation 7:1-3
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

So the 144,000 are sealed just like those who were sealed in the forehead in Ezekiel 9.

Ezekiel 9
1 Then He called out in my hearing with a loud voice, saying, “Let those who have charge over the city draw near, each with a deadly weapon in his hand.” 2 And suddenly six men came from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with his battle-ax in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen and had a writer’s inkhorn at his side. They went in and stood beside the bronze altar.
3 Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub, where it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer’s inkhorn at his side; 4 and the LORD said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.”
5 To the others He said in my hearing, “Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. 6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple.


Now these 144,000 are the children of the woman in the wilderness, Satan can’t harm them so he turns to those who have been saved through the testimony of Jesus. As I said above during the tribulation period you have 144,000 the two witnesses and the angel flying through the air with the everlasting gospel message being preached to the wicked. There are multitudes saved from all nations during this time.

Then a question is asked, who is able to stand against the wrath of God? We find the answer to that in Rev 7, it tells us the 144,000 are able to stand and they are sealed by God before the tribulation begins. Now if the church was there would it not say the 144,000 and my faithful servants, but it doesn’t why?

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=1&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,



I believe I have answered this question in the above statements. But once again, these people that are saved are the 144,000. Remember the 144,000 were sealed before the tribulation came upon the earth.
The 144,000 are Israel’s children aswell, they come from the twelve tribes of Judah.



You ask who is the lord talking to in Revelation 13:9-10 and 14:12-13
The Lord is speaking to the saints from all nations that are saved during the tribulation period. Remember Israel is hidden from Satan’s attacks. I have no doubt there would be Jews among the Gentiles who have been saved during this tribulation period aswell.

In Revelation 12:17 Satan went to make war against the rest of the woman’s offspring the 144,000. He could not touch them for they were sealed by God, but he could attack those who were saved by their preaching.




I believe these are the ones that are saved during the hour of testing which comes on the world.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

The church does not need to be tested for she is a faithful servant.

Dizzy, we are derailing this thread. OUr discussion can begin in another thread. Although I believe that this back and forth between the two of us is good, it is not the topic at hand. Our views concerning the rapture have nothing to do with defining the mortals who live throughout the Millennium.

Therefore, if you want to pursue this conversation, please start another thread. I will be more than happy to discuss the differences of our beliefs there. And I'll try to be gentle, although a bull has no place in a china shop...

Anyway, let's start a new thread.

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 08:04 AM
Premil says there are 1,000 yrs between the righteous and the wicked being raised/judged but can never give one text including Rev 19 and 20 to support it. Here is your opportunity to back up your view of Rev 20. Let us see any other passages that in any small way lends credence to this belief. Amils put a great emphasis on corroboration - namely interpreting Scripture with Scripture. They see this as Premils greatest weakness. So go for it. The ball is in your court.

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" then destroyed?

2. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years?

3. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future physical resurrections (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years?

Jesus is the first resurrection

I have shown much corroboration that Jesus is the first resurrection, you simply dismiss this. I have never seen one Premil address these clear passages. The reason I believe because they negate the Premil paradigm in a very dynamic way. Jesus is the first resurrection according to the Word of God,. A school of thought must submit to clear Scripture.

Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should bethe first resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (ethnos Strong’s 1484)."

Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstbornfrom the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead,and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

I have provbided clear proof Jesus is the first resurrection. Show me support for your belief that we are with other Scripture? It is this lack of corroboration that causes many to question Premil and ultimately abandon it like many on this board - like me.

Jesus is the first to be resurrected from the dead and receive His immortal body , wpm, I do acknowledge your point. Yet to also use the phrase "the first resurrection" to describe the first mass resurrection from the graves would not contradict this. Its just a phrase describing an order of events. Rev 20 says first the blessed , then 1000 years later the rest.

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 09:23 AM
.1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" then destroyed?


I believe Rev 20 adds to the many verses that refer to a period after Jesus comes to mount Zion to restore Jerusalem. These verses indicate a period when there are surviving nations on this current earth after the second coming. There is no sin in Jerusalem then and the nations are at peace. These verses are clearly not referring to a New Earth as they are referring to a period when the Messiah restores Jerusalem and rules this current earth with an iron rod.

Then there are other verses in the bible that are referring to the New Earth when the old earth passes away or is destroyed. So outside of Rev 20 there is clarity , the Messiah comes, restores the earth, and then there comes a time when the old earth is destroyed and there is a new earth.

Revelation 20 defines this period as 1000 years, the duration is not defined outside of Rev 20. The fact that Satan is sealed in the abyss during this 1000 year period adds information to the fact that the Old Testament descriptions of earth, after the Messiah starts to rule, describe the world as at peace and without war. (This is way more fitting than believing Satan is somehow in the abyss now when Rev 12 speaks of only 2 places for Satan before Satan's great wrath, Satan in heaven or Satan on earth.)

Some of the verses we have discussed already:
Zechariah 8
Isaiah 2
Zechariah 14
Joel 3
Ezekiel 38 and 39

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God


There are many more about this period, each indicating the same thing, surviving nations; or mortals on earth; or parts of this earth surviving .... all during the physical reign of the Messiah on earth. The basic answer i got from amills was that these verses are referring to the current period in a metaphorical sense , referring to the peace we have now through Christ and should not be taken literally. I then stated that I think they should be literally interpreted and therefore I believe the earth does survive the second coming.

Each one of these chapters has reasons to associate that chapter as relating to the period of peace on earth under Jesus, and also reasons to associate it with this earth rather than a completely new earth. These verses have already been debated here and I think all readers of these posts can see how they have been interpreted by both parties. Some of these verses were mentioned in the opening post.



.
2. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years?


I havn't yet discussed judgment days in any detail on this thread, only resurrections.


.3. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future physical resurrections (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years?


Like I said , the only mention of the 1000 year period is Revelation 20. I find the question a bit extreme. I could ask a similar question, but then this discussion gets a bit ridiculous:
Can you give me absolute scriptural proof where the bible specifically states that the 1000 years is not meant to be a literal 1000 years but is definitely only meant figuratively?

Rev 20 gives us a more detailed description of the resurrections that will happen in the last days. Most of the descriptions involve two separate and mutually exclusive gatherings.

The first one is the gathering of the righteous into the clouds at the second coming, the unrighteous are specifically left behind. The second one is the gathering of the unrighteous to be thrown into the lake of fire, the righteous are specifically left behind..

They have never been described as happening together, they both physically cannot happen at the same time. Rev gives the time split between the two , 1000 years.

I haven't got the time now to give verses but will follow up on this.

jeffweeder
Dec 1st 2008, 11:07 AM
Can you give me absolute scriptural proof where the bible specifically states that the 1000 years is not meant to be a literal 1000 years but is definitely only meant figuratively?

Like other things in Rev, do we take them literally?
Did Jesus have 7 eyes or 7 horns with a sword coming out of his mouth?
Is the 144,000 a literal number, or the sum total of believers...etc.----all of rev is signified--shown in symbols.

This is what i was trying to explain to you before, about understanding the rest of the NT( and OT), then applying Rev to the understanding of what is revealed in the epistles.


The first one is the gathering of the righteous into the clouds at the second coming, the unrighteous are specifically left behind. The second one is the gathering of the unrighteous to be thrown into the lake of fire, the righteous are specifically left behind..

What does the rest of the NT have to say about that?--a few examples;


"The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

The son of man comes, sends forth the Angels,--they gather the wicked (tares) first to be burned, then the believers (wheat) shine...clearly then the righteous dont get gathered first.


But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

same thing happens in this example--those on the left at his coming burn, those on his right shine


For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed

Is not this identical----the lord comes and we see the wicked eternally seperated, while all who have ever believed marvel---on that same day.


But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation

On the day of this revealing its either eternal life or wrath, because he comes to render to everyman.



"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."




"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." ]

This fixed day is when?

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

JUDE
It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

The epistles are consistent on what happens when the lord comes

So when is this fixed Judgement day? = its after the millenium according to rev.


The living and the dead hear his voice in that same Hour-On the fixed day.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth;
those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

DIZZY
Dec 1st 2008, 11:33 AM
Referring to the highlighted portion of the verse above, how can the saved be so disobedient that they are punished with no rain when they miss their annual journey to Jerusalem? These nations that are left don't sound like the saved to me.

Rev 20 says that the tribulation saints , those that are around when the beast is around but refuse to get the mark , are RESURRECTED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE TRIBULATION. These same blessed ones are the ones that reign with Christ.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection

Yet verses in Zechariah and Isaiah refer to old men and women in Jerusalem during the tribulation , they refer to nations being ruled by an iron rod, and having no rain for disobedience. These do not sound like the resurrected tribulation saints to me, because they grow old so seem to be mortal.

Hi DurbanDude,

The saints that are saved have children, it is not the saved that are disobedient it is the children of the saved that are disobedient. Not all the children will obey the Lord, even though Satan is bound the children still have free choice to serve the Lord or not. Some choose not to serve the Lord these are the ones who are punished.



Rev 20 says that the tribulation saints , those that are around when the beast is around but refuse to get the mark , are RESURRECTED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE TRIBULATION. These same blessed ones are the ones that reign with Christ.


Yes the saints that are killed during the tribulation period will reign with the Lord, but those saints who survive the tribulation period will go into the kingdom in their mortal bodies. Notice it is the souls of those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus Christ, and for the word of God. It is the dead in Christ that reign with Christ not the living saints that survive the tribulation.

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection



Yet verses in Zechariah and Isaiah refer to old men and women in Jerusalem during the tribulation , they refer to nations being ruled by an iron rod, and having no rain for disobedience. These do not sound like the resurrected tribulation saints to me, because they grow old so seem to be mortal.

No Zechariah and Isaiah talk about old men and women and children at the age of one hundred being in Jerusalem during the millennial kingdom.

Isaiah 65:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=65&verse=20&version=50&context=verse)
“ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

The nations being ruled over are the surviving saints from the nations that attacked Jerusalem, they are not resurrected saints.

Zechariah 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles

Christ destroyed the wicked from the nations and the only people left on the earth are the saints that have been gathered together by the angels.

Matthew 13:40-42
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire.

There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
So at the end of the tribulation you have the angels gathering together the saints from heaven and the saints from the earth that are in Christ.

Mark 13:26-28
26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Those saints from heaven reign from Jerusalem with Christ and those saints on the earth stay in their mortal bodies and are ruled over by Christ with a rod of iron.

Their children grow up living in the presence of the Lord, yet some will turn their backs on the Lord and follow their own desires instead of obeying the Lord. Yes these are the saints out of the tribulation but some of the children go astray and it is those ones that go astray that make up the army of Satan at the final battle.

Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


Zechariah 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 12:55 PM
Hi DurbanDude,

The saints that are saved have children, it is not the saved that are disobedient it is the children of the saved that are disobedient. Not all the children will obey the Lord, even though Satan is bound the children still have free choice to serve the Lord or not. Some choose not to serve the Lord these are the ones who are punished.

Yes the saints that are killed during the tribulation period will reign with the Lord, but those saints who survive the tribulation period will go into the kingdom in their mortal bodies. Notice it is the souls of those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus Christ, and for the word of God. It is the dead in Christ that reign with Christ not the living saints that survive the tribulation.

.

Hi Dizzy, ok thanks, I understand your view better now.

Your interpretation of the blessed ones of Rev 20 is technically accurate , but if you think about it, this would mean that if someone is killed a few days earlier they will be resurrected and reign for 1000 years , but if they survive a few days later to the end, then they will have the destiny of mortals. I prefer to believe this is the resurrection of all the saints , all the blessed ones including the recently martyred.

As for all the verses you quoted , all of those referring to survivors could just as easily apply to ungodly mortals as to tribulation surviving saints. And all those verses applying to those gathered could just as easily apply to all the saved in all the ages at the resurrection , rather than just the tribulation martyred saints.

Matthew 13 is referring to a gathering of the wicked and being cast into the fire , this happens at the end of the millenium if you read Rev 20. This is when the ungodly are cast into the fire, this isn't referring to a separation before the millenium.

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 02:06 PM
What does the rest of the NT have to say about that?--a few examples;




"The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Don't we shine forth as the sun already, are we not even in this age living together with Christ , and made alive spiritually , reigning with christ. I think the verse you quote is metaphorical of our state, especially when the order is the other way around in other verses:



1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.




But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

I believe in a separation at the beginning of the millenium, when the righteous are resurrected, and a separation at the resurrection of the judgement. The fact that the ones on the right are separated could be metaphorical of the resurrection of the righteous , the ones on the left that are cast into the lake of fire is metaphorical, representing their destiny of being cast into the lake of fire, which Rev 20 says will happen 1000 years after the martyred live and reign with Christ. This is all a parable , therefore metaphorical.




For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed
Jesus is often described as coming in fire, I have dealt with this verse already in this thread. Yes , they will pay the penalty, and their destiny is secured on that day , they will never have another chance. They will never know the glory of God's power , even as now during the present age the unbelievers do not know the presence of the Lord and His glory but we do. The current unbelievers at least still have that opportunity. When Jesus comes it will be too late, their destiny of being shut out from the presence of the lord is sealed forever.


But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation

Like I said before , there is no argument here. We both agree that the whole earth , all who are not saved, will experience the wrath of God on that day. And their destiny will be sealed, their deads will have resulted in eternal separation, they have their destiny and will never experience God as we do. They will experience the wrath and indignation of God, and will be separated from the resurrected saints who will rule over them.

I think that maybe like your arguments about the "last days" and the "resurrection" you are fixated on certain phrases. The word "judgment" is also widely applied in the bible, and can refer to a number of different events. Just the fact that Jesus separates all mankind into those that are resurrected and reign, and those surviving nations that are ruled with an iron rod is a judgement in itself , even though 1000 years later there will be a resurrection of the unrighteous and a specific final judgement.


"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." ]


Both the second coming and judgement day 1000 years later fit this verse well. Where does this fit in , my honest answer, I don't know :hmm:. I need more information, I need to see this verse in context.


solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

I need to know where this verse is and read it in context to comment.




JUDE
It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

The same applies here, judgment is executed for the ungodly on the Day of the Lord , this is something I have never denied. It is harsh and there is great wrath, and a great earthquake and every city falls and every mountain falls, and the ungodly are seperated from God's glory forever.


"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.


I don't believe He meant an actual 60 minutes here, this is a metaphorical hour , meaning the time period is now when the dead will receive life , resulting in eternal life and resurrected bodies.


26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth;
those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Again , I don't think a literal 60 minute period is meant here, the time period is metaphorical , referring to a future time period. Note that this verse mentions two resurrections, that of the resurrection of life, and that of the resurrection of judgement. When comparing this to Rev 20 we can easliy define which occurs at Rev 20:4,5,6 and then all the rest at Rev 20:12,13,14

BroRog
Dec 1st 2008, 02:32 PM
Actually untrue, you are actually trying to use a Postmil argument to defend a Premil flaw. That doesn't work. :lol:

You convieniantly label the eating and drinking detail as "the day" (singular) when it is actually part of the preceding "the days" (plural) description. Read it for yourself:

“as it was in the days of Noe,so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage"

Ok, it is "the days" (plural).

Then the detail about "the day" (singular):

"until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all."

We don't need to change the Lord's words to say something different. It is crystal clear that all the wicked were destroyed in the day the flood came.

First, Paul, I'm not defending anything but the text of scripture. Second, I made nothing of the singular or plural for day. Finally, you have yet to explain how a post-millennial destruction of the wicked refutes the idea that we will have mortals in the millennium.

BroRog
Dec 1st 2008, 02:41 PM
I agree, however, you mention everything apart from the fact the actual warning relates to the impending total destruction of the wicked.

He says, “as it was in the days of Noe,so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot;they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed”(Luke 17:26-30).

See the correlation between the approaching days of apathy and indifference and the sudden and total destruction of the wicked. There is no getting round this.

Who said I was getting around anything? Your view is post-millennial. If you want to argue that John 17 is post-millennial, then you have no basis for your rebuttal to those who say that the millennium contains mortals. In fact, since you believe that we are in the millennium now, you must admit that we are living during a millennium of mortals. Are you saying that Luke 17 is not post-millennial?

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 03:10 PM
What you actually believe is that the saints that are killed during the rule of the beast will be resurrected a few years later. This is when Jesus comes, and Jesus will destroy the beast and set up the New Earth.

Yet you somehow manage to spiritualise this actual belief to fit into a bible verse that says the blessed who did not worship the beast will be resurrected and reign with Christ for 1000 years until the New Earth is set up. Sounds a bit far-fetched, add that to the impossibility of two resurrections for the saints and it does not sound like a valid interpretation.

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.





Some questions to clarify what you are saying:

(1) Do you not believe that Jesus resurrection was the first one?
(2) Do you not acknowledge that the believers salvation is inextricably linked to Christ's victorious resurrection?
(3) Do you not hold that without Christ's victorious resurrection there is no salvation?
(4) Do you accept that the believer's conversion is likened unto a spiritual resurrection?
(5) Do you not believe the dead in Christ are in heaven now?
(6) How did they get there?
(7) Was it a resurrection?
(8) If not, what was it?

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 03:17 PM
Rev 12 says that Satan is in two places until the end of the period of Satan's wrath:
Firstly in heaven
Secondly cast to earth.
There is no mention of Satan being in the bottomless pit.

Once again, you did not address (or explain) one single passage. :note:

I suggest this is the only way Premil can survive - namely ignore passage after passage that explicitly teaches that Satan and his minions are bound in spiritual chains now in a spiritual prison.

You press me to exegete passages (and I do) but you repeatedly ignore passages I present. This leads to a lob-sided discussion. I refer you back to the passages I submitted. Are direct responses not part of fruitful discussion?

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 03:25 PM
Think about it , you have described the believers experiencing the first resurrection , yet you say these same believers participate in the physical resurrection at the end of the millenium.


Correct.


Yet Revelation 20 says the believers that experience the first resurrection do not experience the other resurrection, only the "REST of the dead". The two groups are mutually exclusive. If you don't get the point, let's just leave it there.

No, that is not true. It says that those that have their part in the first resurrection escape eternal punishment - the second death, not the physical resurrection as you contend. There is a difference between (1) spiritual resurrection that occurs upon conversion when we have our part in Christ's victorious resurrection, (2) physical resurrection that occurs at the Second Coming, and, (3) the continued existence of the dead in Christ in the Lord's presence during the course of this current symbolic millennial period. The 'living' referred to in Revelation 20:4-5 does not refer to the act of conversion (no. 1) or to the general resurrection (no. 2) even though they have entered into no. 1 on earth (and it was their key for going into the presence of God upon death) and are still awaiting no. 2. It rather refers to no. 3 - to the active ongoing continuous interface of the redeemed with Christ. The righteous enjoy it as an ongoing reality. The wicked are barred from the presence of God upon death, although they experience it at the judgment. They are only brought to life to the degree that they are resurrected at Christ's Coming to encounter Christ, and even then it is for the solemn purpose of condemnation at the judgment and eternal punishment.

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 03:32 PM
Jesus is the first to be resurrected from the dead and receive His immortal body , wpm, I do acknowledge your point. Yet to also use the phrase "the first resurrection" to describe the first mass resurrection from the graves would not contradict this. Its just a phrase describing an order of events. Rev 20 says first the blessed , then 1000 years later the rest.

Well, obviously our physical resurrection isn't the first resurrection then! This isn't just logical but factual and biblical to me. If it is an order of events then the first resurrection is the first and the rest come afterwards. Whatever this first resurrection is, it is the only means of escaping eternal punishment - the second death. Do you agree with my last point?

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 03:39 PM
I believe Rev 20 adds to the many verses that refer to a period after Jesus comes to mount Zion to restore Jerusalem. These verses indicate a period when there are surviving nations on this current earth after the second coming. There is no sin in Jerusalem then and the nations are at peace. These verses are clearly not referring to a New Earth as they are referring to a period when the Messiah restores Jerusalem and rules this current earth with an iron rod.

Then there are other verses in the bible that are referring to the New Earth when the old earth passes away or is destroyed. So outside of Rev 20 there is clarity , the Messiah comes, restores the earth, and then there comes a time when the old earth is destroyed and there is a new earth.

Revelation 20 defines this period as 1000 years, the duration is not defined outside of Rev 20. The fact that Satan is sealed in the abyss during this 1000 year period adds information to the fact that the Old Testament descriptions of earth, after the Messiah starts to rule, describe the world as at peace and without war. (This is way more fitting than believing Satan is somehow in the abyss now when Rev 12 speaks of only 2 places for Satan before Satan's great wrath, Satan in heaven or Satan on earth.)

Some of the verses we have discussed already:
Zechariah 8
Isaiah 2
Zechariah 14
Joel 3
Ezekiel 38 and 39

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God


There are many more about this period, each indicating the same thing, surviving nations; or mortals on earth; or parts of this earth surviving .... all during the physical reign of the Messiah on earth. The basic answer i got from amills was that these verses are referring to the current period in a metaphorical sense , referring to the peace we have now through Christ and should not be taken literally. I then stated that I think they should be literally interpreted and therefore I believe the earth does survive the second coming.

Each one of these chapters has reasons to associate that chapter as relating to the period of peace on earth under Jesus, and also reasons to associate it with this earth rather than a completely new earth. These verses have already been debated here and I think all readers of these posts can see how they have been interpreted by both parties. Some of these verses were mentioned in the opening post.




I havn't yet discussed judgment days in any detail on this thread, only resurrections.



Like I said , the only mention of the 1000 year period is Revelation 20. I find the question a bit extreme. I could ask a similar question, but then this discussion gets a bit ridiculous:
Can you give me absolute scriptural proof where the bible specifically states that the 1000 years is not meant to be a literal 1000 years but is definitely only meant figuratively?

Rev 20 gives us a more detailed description of the resurrections that will happen in the last days. Most of the descriptions involve two separate and mutually exclusive gatherings.

The first one is the gathering of the righteous into the clouds at the second coming, the unrighteous are specifically left behind. The second one is the gathering of the unrighteous to be thrown into the lake of fire, the righteous are specifically left behind..

They have never been described as happening together, they both physically cannot happen at the same time. Rev gives the time split between the two , 1000 years.

I haven't got the time now to give verses but will follow up on this.

These are 3 pertinent questions on Premil fundamentals yet you fail to furnish me with one single statement of corroboration for your assertions. It is on the subject of corroboration that I feel Premil falls apart. I really believe that. None of the detail of Zechariah 8, Isaiah 2, Zechariah 14, Joel 3 and Ezekiel 38 and 39 correlates with Rev 20 - none. There is no binding of Satan, there is no uprising of the wicked in their billion to surround Jesus and the saints 1,000 yrs after Jesus destroys the wicked, there are no 2 resurrections/judgments separated by 1,000 yrs. On top of this, there is no period of peace and perfection described anywhere in them, or even in Rev 20. This is why I oppose it.

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 03:47 PM
First, Paul, I'm not defending anything but the text of scripture. Second, I made nothing of the singular or plural for day. Finally, you have yet to explain how a post-millennial destruction of the wicked refutes the idea that we will have mortals in the millennium.

I actually agree with that. We are in the millennium now in our mortal bodies. When Jesus comes, the righteous are glorified (in total), the wicked are destroyed (in total). The wicked are thrown into hell forever. We inherit the new perfect earth forever. It is only glorified people that can inherit the glorified earth.

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 03:48 PM
Who said I was getting around anything? Your view is post-millennial. If you want to argue that John 17 is post-millennial, then you have no basis for your rebuttal to those who say that the millennium contains mortals. In fact, since you believe that we are in the millennium now, you must admit that we are living during a millennium of mortals. Are you saying that Luke 17 is not post-millennial?

Please explain your point re John 17. I don't see it.

John146
Dec 1st 2008, 05:22 PM
"Paradigm"? Seriously, having scripture fit into a certain POV is exactly why I do not agree with the Amil model. I believe in letting the scripture and the definitions that have been included in the scriptures themselves, fity themselves into a paradigm.I agree. Yet the premil view changes the clear meaning of texts such as John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 and forces a thousand years into them.


The paradigm that scriptures like Zechariah 14, Revelation 19-20, and Matthew 24 fit into is the post-trib premil POV.They do? Why no mention at all of the second coming of Christ in Zech 14 if it's supposedly speaking of a time period following the second coming? Why no mention at all of the supposed thousand year earthly kingdom in Matthew 24 if that chapter fits into the post-trib premil view?


We have not said that there will be 1000 years between resurrections is the fact that it SAYS so in Revelation 20:4-6. We didn't infuse the 1000 years into those scriptures. They clearly say that themselves, without us trying to fit them into a paradigm.You make assumptions about what the first resurrection is, but don't acknowledge that scripture teaches that Christ is the first resurrection and we take part in His resurrection by being born again. Read Romans 6. You also have no explanation for why souls would need to be resurrected. John saw souls in his vision. It says those souls "lived and reigned with Christ". It doesn't say their bodies are resurrected and then they live and reign with Christ.


In my opinion, fitting scripture into one's own POV is the greatest flaw in any discipline, including the Amil paradigm. Let scripture speak for itself.Exactly. So, why don't you let scriptures like Matthew 13:36-43, Luke 17:26-30, John 5:28-29, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 Cor 15:23-24 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 speak for themselves?

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 05:35 PM
These are 3 pertinent questions on Premil fundamentals yet you fail to furnish me with one single statement of corroboration for your assertions. It is on the subject of corroboration that I feel Premil falls apart. I really believe that. None of the detail of Zechariah 8, Isaiah 2, Zechariah 14, Joel 3 and Ezekiel 38 and 39 correlates with Rev 20 - none. There is no binding of Satan, there is no uprising of the wicked in their billion to surround Jesus and the saints 1,000 yrs after Jesus destroys the wicked, there are no 2 resurrections/judgments separated by 1,000 yrs. On top of this, there is no period of peace and perfect in them or even in Rev 20. This is why I oppose it.

The subject of this thread has changed slightly but the main relevance has been about those nations that still exist after the second coming. All the verses quoted are highly relevant to a doctrine about who survives the Day of the Lord and the second coming, and the nature of the survivors and whether the earth survives this Day of the Lord.

This has turned into a debate about the millenium because of our different perspectives , hence the shift on focus to Revelation 20. But the core verses still remain those of the opening post and a few others, and these verses strongly corroborate my view on the nations who survive the Second Coming. As I have said before , Revelation gives us more detail, and gives us a time period, but the Old Testament has a lot to say about the earth after the Day of the Lord , and we have all heard the amill view on those verses too.

So it seems we've both expressed ourselves, I really appreciate that you've been willing to discuss this in so much detail, it takes a lot of patience , thanks :)

John146
Dec 1st 2008, 05:53 PM
To both wpm and john146, I agree that I must take the time to look into those verses that you are using to support your view. I'll focus on the verses listed above by john146.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I don't believe Jesus was meaning a literal 60 minutes here, He is referring to a time period when there would be a resurrection of the righteous and a resurrection of the unrighteous. Notice that He does seperate them. The fact that I believe Rev 20 lists these two resurrections 1000 years apart does not contradict this listing of events at the end times.No one was trying to say that he's speaking of a literal hour. Other translations have the word "time" instead. Based on 1 Cor 15:50-54, I believe it will happen very quickly, in a moment. But why didn't He say "the hours are coming" rather than "the hour is coming" if He had two completely separate resurrections at different times in mind?


Matt 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth
If you read Rev 20, the resurrection of the unrighteous who are cast into the fire occurs at the end of the 1000 years. I therefore believe these are post-millenium verses because they describe being cast into the fire.You need to read this more closely. Notice that the net contained BOTH good and bad. Yes, the bad are cast into the furnace of fire which seems to clearly refer to the lake of fire. But why did you not make any mention of the other side of the story, which is that the good were also gathered at the same time?


The same logic applies to Matthew 13:36-43. Note that no resurrection of the righteous is mentioned here, and the righteous are left behind here and the ungodly are taken. This fits in with the description of the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years, but DOES NOT fit in with the numerous references to the gathering of the elect in the clouds, where the ungodly are left behind. This is confirmation of two seperate events.Once again, you did not appear to put much effort into studying this passage. Just like the other parable, both the righteous and unrighteous are gathered and not just the unrighteous.

Maybe you didn't catch that because you only read Jesus' explanation of the parable. In the parable itself, we can see that the righteous are also gathered.

Matt 13
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Premil has no explanation for both believers and unbelievers being gathered for judgment at the same time, as passages like this one teach. Instead, it has their resurrection and judgment a thousand years apart.


Matthew 24 is referring to the resurrection of the righteous which occurs at the second coming. Here the elect are gathered and the ungodly left behind. There is weeping and gnashing of teeth for the unrighteous, but in the context it is not clear if this will be as a result of them being excluded from the full oneness of God and the gathering of the elect, or if this weeping relates to their eventual destiny of the lake of fire at the end of the millenium. This weeping could also relate to the actual second coming moment before any judgments and resurrection of the unrighteous:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.We don't have to wonder what happens to the ungodly. Jesus tells us here:

Matt 24
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Could He have been any more clear? Just as all the unbelievers were killed in the flood "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.". All unbelievers will be killed when He comes. That's what He taught and what Paul taught in 1 Thess 5:1-6 and 2 Thess 1:7-10, what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:3-13 and what John taught in Rev 19:15-21.


Matthew 25 has some parables relating to the end-times. I believe these are parables to show that we must be ready and to show the eventual destiny of the righteous and the unrighteous. The parable of the sheep and the goats doesn't necessarily mean that the destiny of the goats occurs at the same time as their separation from the sheep, but is a parable to show what their destiny is.Where does it at all indicate that the sheep and goats are not gathered and separated at the same time? Just because they are parables doesn't mean that we can't derive any sense of timing from them. It clearly implies that the sheep (believers) and goats (unbelievers) are all there at the same time.


1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ......................................

5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape
This mentions the resurrection of the righteous yet there is no mention of the resurrection of the unrighteous. Here there is a gathering of the church/brethren in the clouds, and no mention of a gathering of the "tares" and the lake of fire. Not every passage related to the second coming contains all the details surrounding it. That's why we have to put them all together and see what they teach as a whole.


I believe there will be wholesale destruction across earth at the second coming, it is a day of wrath that will affect every one of the ungodly, no-one will escape. They will lose families and homes and most will lose their lives, every city will be destroyed and the landscape will be changed forever. But to conclude that no-one will live , when the only description of this destruction involves a comparison to a woman travailing with child (great pain that ends) is reading too much into it.Perhaps left to its own, it would be reading too much into it, but not when combined with what is taught elsewhere.


1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
The same concept applies here. There is vengeance (ref Revelation bowls of wrath , earthquake etc) This does not specify when their eventual judgement occurs, we know only that they will be eternally separated from the presence of the Lord and His glory. Theses verses do not indicate if there is immediate casting into the lake of fire. We know from other scripture like Rev 19 that He will be physically destroying people when He comes. This passages indicates that He will take vengeance on them that don't know God and don't obey the gospel of Christ. What unbeliever does not fit into that description? How does any unbeliever manage to escape this destruction? What is it that would allow some to escape it?


2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men
Here is where I apply the principle of progressive fulfilment. This chapter speaks of the day of the Lord as the day that the whole earth is destroyed. Because there are many other verses that refer to a period of peace on the current earth under the reign of Christ starting from the day of the Lord, (and Rev 20 that mentions the 1000 year period on earth that starts with the first resurrection) I understand this prophecy to be progressively fulfilled , firstly at the second coming , and then 1000 years later.There is not even a hint of such a concept to be found in 2 Peter 3. Instead, we see that the day of the Lord comes (arrives) as a thief in the night and with it comes the burning up of the earth. That is why Peter says we look forward to the new heavens and new earth. There is no way that any mortal could survive what he describes. There is no indication whatsoever that it will be a long process. We know from 1 Thess 5 that the day of the Lord brings sudden destruction.

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 05:53 PM
In the context of Rev 20 , there is a resurrection of the saved and then a 1000 year period and then the resurrection of the unrighteous.

So calling Christ's resurrection the "first resurrection" after you have just read that "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" ..."this is the first resurrection" doesn't make any sense to me.


So far I have heard a few posts that seem to be hinting that for Christians our first resurrection was with Christ because we have eternal life. The bible makes it clear that we only receive that eternal life at salvation, which happens at different moments for each of us. The resurrection is an event that involves all the believers simultaneously. Thus there are 3 separate events:

1) Jesus crucifixion, and resurrection, which open the way of salvation
2) Our personal salvation, us choosing to believe, becoming believers, receiving our eternal destiny
3) The physical resurrection

All three events are separate , it would be incorrect to start combining any of these events.

Durbandude, we were legally represented "in Christ" in His life, death and resurrection. It was substitutionary, just like we were legally represented "in Adam" when He fell. Regardless of when we were saved, our salvation was secured 2,000 years ago. There is nothing man can add to it.

Luke 24:46-47 is very interesting as it describes the Lord’s appearance to His disciples after the resurrection. Here He speaks to them and explains the significance of the resurrection, saying, “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations (ethnos), beginning at Jerusalem.”

The resurrection of Christ was the means that the penitent could make heaven. Moreover, it opened up the Gospel to the ethnos. This thought is repeated by John in Rev 20. The earthly ministry of Christ, including His death, burial and resurrection was the victory that opened up the Gospel to the Gentiles. This is simply what Rev 20 is explaining.

When a Christian gets saved they identify with Christ and experience the reality of the first resurrection. The Lord’s victory over sin, death and the grave through His sinless life, substitutionary death and glorious resurrection secured the eternal deliverance of all those that would put their trust in Christ. Christ’s encounter with death followed by His victory over the same was on behalf of God’s redeemed. He was man’s federal head or representative – taking upon Himself the penalty and judgment due to sinful man. In salvation, the sinner enters into the merits, effect and blessing of that transaction – thus partaking in the outcome by faith. In Christ’s physical resurrection they experience dual resurrection – both spiritual and some day physical.

1 Corinthians 15:14 & 17 makes clear: “if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain ... if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.”

Why? Christ’s resurrection secured our salvation. Christ took upon Himself our sin (being made sin for us). He was punished for our sin. He also conquered our sin paying the full penalty for it on Calvary’s tree.

John146
Dec 1st 2008, 06:02 PM
I disagree with this as complete over-spiritualisation of very clear verses concerning the day of the Lord , and the nations, and the survivors, behold Zechariah 14:

Zech 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Let the reader of this debate decide for themselves if there is still going to be a literal outworking of these verses , or if they were fulfilled in a spiritual way as john146 says. john146 I just disagree with the way you interpret the bible, it seems to be stretching interpretations beyond their original meaning. I'm sure Jesus and the disciples were accused of the same kind of thing that you're accusing me of when you consider how they interpreted some of the OT prophecies. They certainly did not always interpret them literally the way you do. Take Malachi 4:5-6, for instance. Your method of interpretation would demand that it's not yet fulfilled. But Jesus said it was (Matthew 17:10-13).

John146
Dec 1st 2008, 06:06 PM
For the record, I believe that the New Earth occurs at the end of the millenium as the bible describes, there is no dispute there.

I know that Revelation isn't always consecutive, but I believe from Chapter19 it is. There is a great war (Chapter 19), then the first resurrection followed by 1000 years followed by the final resurrection (Chapter 20) followed by the New Earth and New Heaven (chapter 21). It is simply described and that is the wayI believe it.

NIV Isaiah 65:

20 "Never again will there be in it
infants who live but a few days,
or older people who do not live out their years;
those who die at a hundred
will be thought mere youths;
those who fail to reach [a (http://www.ibs.org/bible/verse/?tniv=yes&q=Isa%2065#fen-TNIV-18921a)] a hundred
will be considered accursed.


The NIV explains it more clearly, but the meaning is there in the KJV, I just don't think you analysed the context clearly.

Even Isaiah 65:22 implies long life but mortality describing "the days of a tree" , instead of eternal life.
65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.Do you have any explanation for people dying but no one mourning their deaths?


I believe that the reference to the new heavens and the new earth in verse 17 is just an aside about the far future, the rest is referring to the millenium.I don't find that explanation to be acceptable at all. What is your basis for believing that? It's way too convenient for you to see it that way. Instead, I believe Revelation 21:1-8 must correlate with Isaiah 65:17-25. There is no reason to think that the new heavens and new earth are mentioned in verse 17 and then the topic is immediately changed one verse later. I don't buy that at all.

John146
Dec 1st 2008, 06:11 PM
The ones that go into the Millennial Kingdom are saints who were not killed by the beast. Even though the beast ordered all those who would not worship him to be killed, he was not able to kill them all. Why do you have flesh and blood (people still with their mortal bodies) inheriting the kingdom when 1 Cor 15:50 clearly says that is not possible?

John146
Dec 1st 2008, 06:32 PM
The context of Rev 19:18 shows that the phrase "the flesh of all men" is referring to all the various types of men "free and slave" that are gathered at Megiddo.

Even Rev 19 indicates survivors that Jesus rules with an iron rod:

19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Wait a minute here. Where are you getting the idea that anyone survives what is described there? Look at the context of what this ruling with a rod of iron entails. He smites the nations. He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. That means He destroys them. Look at this depiction of treading the winepress of the wrath of God and then explain to me how anyone survives this:

Rev 14
18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

John146
Dec 1st 2008, 06:48 PM
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Point completely missed. Just like the days of Noah, so will it be on the days (plural) of the Son of Man. This means that the day of the Lord is not one day as you suppose, but more than one day. Otherwise, it would be called, "the day (singular) of the Lord", which in Luke 17 it is not. It is the days (plural) of the Lord. Also, just like unto the days of Noah, the destruction of the people did not happen in one day, but 40. The rains lasted fourty days, and all that were on the earth then perished, not instantly when the rains started to fall, but by the end of those forty days. We see this pattern throughout the OT, and that was when the Lord judged the nations atr least once per generation. This, unlike your presupposition, is irrefutable.You are completely missing the context. Let's take another look.

26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

The days of Noah refers to the days PRECEDING the flood. Not the days following. It is clearly referring to the days when people "did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage" prior to the flood. The same thing will happen before the second coming of Christ. People will eat, drink, and marry as if everything is just great and the next thing they know sudden destruction will come upon them when Christ returns.

People were warned in Noah's day about the coming flood and they ignored it and kept living it up as if nothing was going to happen. In the days before Christ comes, the same thing will happen. People will be warned that He is coming soon to judge the world and people ignore it as if He will never come.

The days of Noah clearly only referred to the days leading up to the flood so therefore the days of the Son of man refer only to the days leading up to His coming.


Wrong yet again. Jesus makes the comparisons between His return and the days of both Noah and Sodom. His point is that when H returns, He will judge the nations and remove the wicked, just like Matthew 25:31-46 states and Revelation 19:11-20 confirms.If He removes the wicked, who does that leave? Believers. But believers will all have immortal bodies at that point. There will be no mortals left to populate a supposed earthly millennial kingdom.


What happened on both accounts? Were there not survivors? Did God not spare Noah and Lot? Were they worthy of being spared? Take a look at Lot, for instance. Do you think that incest is something that God approves? And yet, He had mercy on Lot, just like He mentions in Matthew 25:31-46 that of the nations that are left, he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy on.Noah and Lot were both believers. That is why they were spared.


This concept was actually predicted by Daniel in Daniel 7:11-12. It is only the amil brand that equates figurations to reality and attempts to take reality and figurate it. This is not what the Premil brand does. We take scripture as is, as it is written. When we look at a passage, we look at the context of that passage to determine whether a passage has symbolism in it or not. The Amil brand seems to attempt to manipulate scripture into it's own likeness, figurating things that ought not to be figurated, and making reality things that are obviously figurations, like the "fiery wrath" example that I have shown earlier in this thread.Are you suggesting that unbelievers can be included among the sheep who inherit the kingdom (Matt 25:34) and receive "life eternal" (Matt 25:46) at that time?

third hero
Dec 1st 2008, 08:30 PM
But you just admitted that the beast's army is wiped (as per you opinion of Rev 20). Now you are saying some survive. I am a little confused. Who are included in the beast's army and what is their end-time activities? Please furnish me with clear Scripture.


Not in the least. What happens when the Lord returns? Is not the nations that fought against Jerusalem and caused it's desolation gathered to fight against Him, as mentioned in Revelation 16:13-14, 16? Are those nations not the very same nations of the Beast that are wiped from the face of the earth at Megiddo, which is just east of Jerusalem?

I wish that simple English is understandable by all, including yourself, but in order ot relate my message to you, I have to figurate it, which I am not so inclined to do. Zechariah 14 is clear, and it has a clear timeline of events that include the coming of the Lord and the time of the ruling of the remnant of the nations who had attacked Jerusalem.

Here, let's walk through this chapter, since you have such a hard time understanding it.

Verses 1-2. The nations attack Jerusalem, doing exactly what Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:15-21 warned about. The nations kill all that they see, including ravishing of women and the senseless murdering of innocent children.

Verse 3-5a. The Lord sees all of this and decides to take action. First He splits the Mount of Olives and creates an escape route for all of the survivors, thus fulfilling both Revelation 12:6, 12:12-17.

Verse 5b-11. The Lord returns, thus fulfilling Matthew 24:29-31, Joel 2:10-11, Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:27-28, 1 Corinthians 15:51, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Revelation 14:14-16 and Revelation 16:15.

Verse 12-15. The Lord takes revenge against those armies who attacked Jerussalem, fulfilling Joel 3:2, 3:9-17, Ezekiel 39:1-8, 39:17-23, Matthew 24:37-51, Revelation 19:11-20, and many other verses that I have not mentioned. (I believe this is where your question is answered, although I am certain that because I have not spiritualized it, you will not understand).

Verse 16-21. This is where the Lord establishes His Kingdom in Jerusalem, fulfilling Matthew 25:31-46, Ezekiel 39:9-16, Daniel 7:12, Isaiah 65, Psalm 2, Revelation 20:1-7, and many, MANY other verses in Isaiah and in other books of the OT that I really do not have the time to list.

And there you have it. The entire chapter of Zechariah 14 explains in some detail what will happen once the Lord comes, in cluding the battle between the nations that fought against Jerusalem, (Abomination that causes Desolation in Matthew 24:14-21), and what He will require the survivors of His return, aka the remanant of the nations. Not to be confused with the armies of the nations that will be wiped out at Megiddo, which is explained in verses 12-15, these are those who did not, I repeat, DID NOT participate in the battle at Megiddo. The entire world does not gather at Magiddo, only all of the military of the nations, and their leaders. Those who survive being pelted by 100lb hailstones, survive the crumbling of the cities and the mountains and those who survive the sinking of the islands, those who are given permission to live after Lord Jesus establishes His Kingdom on Earth; those people are the remnant of the nations.

I can't be any clearer than that. This is what scripture says, and not my beliefs. This is the main difference between me and you, wpm. I change my beliefs to fit scripture, you change scripture to fit your beliefs. We will never agree, because our basis of beliefs are as night and day.

third hero
Dec 1st 2008, 08:41 PM
I think that maybe like your arguments about the "last days" and the "resurrection" you are fixated on certain phrases. The word "judgment" is also widely applied in the bible, and can refer to a number of different events. Just the fact that Jesus separates all mankind into those that are resurrected and reign, and those surviving nations that are ruled with an iron rod is a judgement in itself , even though 1000 years later there will be a resurrection of the unrighteous and a specific final judgement.

According to Daniel 7:13-14, th entire return of the Lord is a judgment all by itself, and all of the events that happen as a result is the result of the Judgment that the Ancient of Days renders on the earth. In fact, there are many judgments that God has rendered throughout history, including the destruction of the Temple and the desolation of Jerusalem.

third hero
Dec 1st 2008, 08:57 PM
I agree. Yet the premil view changes the clear meaning of texts such as John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 and forces a thousand years into them.

Really? So the nations is the church now. That's what you are saying. Since when? The nations have always represented the heathen peoples all around the world. But yet, you want to change the meaning of the word "nations" to fit your POV. Who is changing what here?


They do? Why no mention at all of the second coming of Christ in Zech 14 if it's supposedly speaking of a time period following the second coming? Why no mention at all of the supposed thousand year earthly kingdom in Matthew 24 if that chapter fits into the post-trib premil view?

And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee. -Zechariah 14:5

It doesn't mention the Lord's return? Then tell me what does the reddened portion of that scripture mean? Tell me, what does the other verses from verse 6-9 mean? Talk about changing scripture, I am wondering which cliff notes version of Zechariah 14 did you read, because the things you claim are omitted are clearly present there.


You make assumptions about what the first resurrection is, but don't acknowledge that scripture teaches that Christ is the first resurrection and we take part in His resurrection by being born again. Read Romans 6. You also have no explanation for why souls would need to be resurrected. John saw souls in his vision. It says those souls "lived and reigned with Christ". It doesn't say their bodies are resurrected and then they live and reign with Christ.


It's nice to know that you believe that premils forged Revelation 20:1-10. I'll take that under advisement.


Exactly. So, why don't you let scriptures like Matthew 13:36-43, Luke 17:26-30, John 5:28-29, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 Cor 15:23-24 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 speak for themselves?

According to my research, it appears that I am not the one who is altering scripture. Matthew 25:32 clearly states that the nations are being judged, and Matthew 25:32 shows that the nations are judged accordingto the actions they have one to "my brethern", which is, according to scripture, the Believers. I have not altered John 5:28-29 at all, you instead want that scripture to say things that it does not say. It says that the Lord will judge, and I totally agree with it. It does NOT give th e time in which He will do so, an error that you fail to acknowledge. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24 has verses 25-26 to go along with it, furthering the clarification that Revelation 20 clearly presents, which is a time period after His return when He will rule the world until the last enemy is defeated, which is Death,. which happens after this earth and this heavens flee from His presence, AFTER the Millennium and the Rebellion that happens afterward. Neither I, nor the premils, changed a single word. 2 Peter 3:10-13 has verses 3-6 to go along with them, which clearly talks of the time in which the world is to be destroyed. You want to make it the return of the Lord, when Peter is clearly talking about the final destruction fo the world, as highlighted in Revelation 20:10, which AGAIN is AFTER the Millennium, and AFTER the return of the Lord.

third hero
Dec 1st 2008, 09:15 PM
You are completely missing the context. Let's take another look.

26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

The days of Noah refers to the days PRECEDING the flood. Not the days following. It is clearly referring to the days when people "did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage" prior to the flood. The same thing will happen before the second coming of Christ. People will eat, drink, and marry as if everything is just great and the next thing they know sudden destruction will come upon them when Christ returns.

People were warned in Noah's day about the coming flood and they ignored it and kept living it up as if nothing was going to happen. In the days before Christ comes, the same thing will happen. People will be warned that He is coming soon to judge the world and people ignore it as if He will never come.

The days of Noah clearly only referred to the days leading up to the flood so therefore the days of the Son of man refer only to the days leading up to His coming.

I guess that you have a hard time comprehending what I was writing, and since I can not break down what I have said any further, I'll just have to repeat myself.

1. The rain lasted 40 days. The flood lasted 40 more days. Hence the Judgment of the destruction of the world by means of water lasted 80 days. This is more than one day of destruction.

2. Since just like the days (plural) of Noah, so will it be at the days (plural) of the Son of Man. Lord Jesus's judgment does not happen in one day, but like Zechariah 14:12-15 and Matthew 25:31-46 suggests, the judgments lasts longer than one day.

3. The days of the Lord's wrath are more than one, just like in the days of Noah. Just like the judgment on Sodom and Gamorrah, the judgment against the wicked will be complete, with no one surviving it other than the ones in whom the Lord spares, hence the Lot reference. And pleae, do not say that that man was righteous, because incest does not a righteous man does, even when he is drunk.


If He removes the wicked, who does that leave? Believers. But believers will all have immortal bodies at that point. There will be no mortals left to populate a supposed earthly millennial kingdom.


Noah and Lot were both believers. That is why they were spared.

The believers are NOT left, because they are taken to Him the MOMENT HE SHOWS UP IN THE AIR! So, since all of the righteous are removed from the earth and given immortality, then only the wicked are left, as Lot represents in my book. The only reason why he was spared is because he did not participate in the type of wickedness that Sodom and Gamorrah was participating in. But a guy who commits incest, in my book, is just as wicked as the ones who participate in homosexuality, and yes, the Lord spared him. Noah was righteous, yet, but Lot was not.


Are you suggesting that unbelievers can be included among the sheep who inherit the kingdom (Matt 25:34) and receive "life eternal" (Matt 25:46) at that time?

I am not suggesting it. I am stating it. The nations are judged in Matthew 25:31-32. Verse 40 shows why He spares some of the heathen, and verse 45 shows the reason why the Lord will throw people into the Lake. None of them are righteous. If they were, they would be counted as part of the tribulation saints. Therefore, those who are counted as sheep wil be ruled by Lord Jesus with a rod of iron. Look up the meaning of rod of iron, and maybe you'll get it. Jesus would never rule over His brethern with a rod of iron, for He always gives us mercy. Therefore, th heathen are the only ones who would get this kind of treatment.

David Taylor
Dec 1st 2008, 09:28 PM
Really? So the nations is the church now. That's what you are saying. Since when? The nations have always represented the heathen peoples all around the world. But yet, you want to change the meaning of the word "nations" to fit your POV. Who is changing what here?
Not so much that the nations is the church now, but rather, the church is comprised from the nations now.

Prior to calvary, the nations were all heathen people; but since calvary, millions upon millions of believers have come out of the nations into the church.






And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee. -Zechariah 14:4-5

It doesn't mention the Lord's return? Then tell me what does the reddened portion of that scripture mean?


Zechariah was looking forward to the day that the Messiah would walk on the Mt of Olives, along with all of his followers with him....using dramatic hyperbole to show the effect it would have upon everyone just like the upheaval of mountains would have if they were moved.

What does the reddened portion above mean? Let's ask the gospel writers.

John 8:1 "Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came"

Matthew 15:30 "And great multitudes came unto him"

Luke 5:15 "But so much the more went there a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came"

John 6:2 "And a great multitude followed him"


When did Luke think the Moutains would be leveled?

Luke 3:5 "Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God."

Zechariah, like Luke, was speaking in figurative hyperbole, not literal sisemic and tectonic expectation of the ground...but of the hearts of the people.






Tell me, what does the other verses from verse 6-9 mean?

Zech 14:6-9
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


The expectation that Jesus would come, walk the earth with His people at the Mt of Olives, and would be the complete and true fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles....just as Jesus would later explain.

As Zechariah foretold, Jesus would come and fulfill Sukkot; the Feast of Tabernacles/Booths/Dwellings/Ingatherings....the water of life, the light of the world, indwelling His followers forever.

John 7:2, 37 "Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand. In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit"

John 8:12 "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world"

Paul knew the pilgrimage would not be to earthly Jerusalem; but rather, to the Heavenly Zion....Heb. 11:15 "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem"

third hero
Dec 1st 2008, 09:41 PM
Not so much that the nations is the church now, but rather, the church is comprised from the nations now.

Prior to calvary, the nations were all heathen people; but since calvary, millions upon millions of believers have come out of the nations into the church.

So, you are saying that the church is a part of the world, instead of being separate from this world?


Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. -John 18:36

According to this scripture alone, the church, which is the kingdom of Lord Jesus, is NOT a part of this world. Hence when the term "nations" is used by Lord Jesus, He is using it in the same reference as every other person who writes anything in the NT. The Kingdom is the church, and the nations are the heathen, completely separate. Like Lord Jesus said, His kingdom, and those who are a part of that kingdom, are NOt of this world. Isn't this another reason why Lord Jesus proclaimed that all must be "born again"?


Zechariah was looking forward to the day that the Messiah would walk on the Mt of Olives, along with all of his followers with him....using dramatic hyperbole to show the effect it would have upon everyone just like the upheaval of mountains would have if they were moved.

I do not agree. I guess if we were to use that logic, then the Sun will not blacken, the moon willl continue to show it's light and the stars will not fall whenthe Lord returns. Let's go a bit further. The Lord isn't really coming, because it is a hyperbole, the whole thing. See where I am going with this?


What does the reddened portion above mean? Let's ask the gospel writers.

John 8:1 "Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came"

Matthew 15:30 "And great multitudes came unto him"

Luke 5:15 "But so much the more went there a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came"

John 6:2 "And a great multitude followed him"


When did Luke think the Moutains would be leveled?

Luke 3:5 "Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God."

Zechariah, like Luke, was speaking in figurative hyperbole, not literal sisemic and tectonic expectation of the ground...but of the hearts of the people.

Explain Revelation 12:16 means then, if the earth is not to be split when Jerusalem is attacked by Satan.


Zech 14:6-9
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


The expectation that Jesus would come, walk the earth with His people at the Mt of Olives, and would be the complete and true fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles....just as Jesus would later explain.

As Zechariah foretold, Jesus would come and fulfill Sukkot; the Feast of Tabernacles/Booths/Dwellings/Ingatherings....the water of life, the light of the world, indwelling His followers forever.

John 7:2, 37 "Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand. In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit"

John 8:12 "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world"

Paul knew the pilgrimage would not be to earthly Jerusalem; but rather, to the Heavenly Zion....Heb. 11:15 "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem"

Sorry, but this does not negate or fulfill the idea that the Lord will require all of the remnant of the nations who attacked Jerusalem to come to Jerusalem to worship the King of Kings during the feasts of tabernacles. Turning a statement into an allegory is not going to change it by any means. Besides, the specifics are too detailed to be allegorical.

BroRog
Dec 2nd 2008, 02:31 AM
Please explain your point re John 17. I don't see it.

The talk is about the Millennium mortals. If we are in the Millennium now, then we are the Millennium mortals.

If John 17 is post-millennial, then it serves to prove that the wicked do not survive the millennium. But it does not prove that the wicked do not populate the Millennium.

It's been a few days down the road, but I thought you were attempting to use Luke 17 to prove that there were no wicked in the Millennium.

wpm
Dec 2nd 2008, 03:44 AM
And there you have it. The entire chapter of Zechariah 14 explains in some detail what will happen once the Lord comes, in cluding the battle between the nations that fought against Jerusalem, (Abomination that causes Desolation in Matthew 24:14-21), and what He will require the survivors of His return, aka the remanant of the nations. Not to be confused with the armies of the nations that will be wiped out at Megiddo, which is explained in verses 12-15, these are those who did not, I repeat, DID NOT participate in the battle at Megiddo. The entire world does not gather at Magiddo, only all of the military of the nations, and their leaders. Those who survive being pelted by 100lb hailstones, survive the crumbling of the cities and the mountains and those who survive the sinking of the islands, those who are given permission to live after Lord Jesus establishes His Kingdom on Earth; those people are the remnant of the nations.

I can't be any clearer than that. This is what scripture says, and not my beliefs. This is the main difference between me and you, wpm. I change my beliefs to fit scripture, you change scripture to fit your beliefs. We will never agree, because our basis of beliefs are as night and day.

There is no need for insults.

Is the armies in Zech 14 not part of the beast's army?

mdo757
Dec 2nd 2008, 03:52 AM
During the time that Jesus is to rule here on earth , known by pre-mills as the millenium , there seem to be mortals who did not receive their immortal resurrection bodies. I believe these are the ungodly survivors of the tribulation. I haven't researched every possible verse here , but listed some that I believe support this view. I believe that every ungodly person will experience some destruction on the Day of The Lord, all participating in the war in Israel will die, there will be destruction of homes, destruction of families, even their cities will be destroyed, but some will still survive.

DISCUSSION: What are your objections to this, if any, or what are your own views?

Who are these people who don't know the ways of God and want to go to Israel to learn? Who are the nations that will be rebuked and who beat their swords into plowshares? They are the seven Thunders.

third hero
Dec 2nd 2008, 04:20 AM
There is no need for insults.

Is the armies in Zech 14 not part of the beast's army?

How many times do I have to say it? Didn't you read my last post? Oh, I get it. I didn't spiritualize the answer, and thus you could not see it.

Here, this might help you out. The nations that rise up against Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:1-2 is as much the Lord's Army as Satan is God's Son. Maybe you can understand that.

For everyone else who isn't insulted by reading plain ordinary 5th grade level English, I have answered this question over and over again. The remnant, the remnant of the nations that attack Jerusalem, are the peoples of the nations that will not participate in the Battle at Megiddo. They are those who, like the Americans who are still in America while we are fighting foes in Iraq, are left in their native towns and cities, those who are not soldiers or generals, or leaders.

The nations that overtake Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:1-2 is the very same army that is under the control of the Beast, the army that is called Magog in Ezekiel 38, who is ruled by Gog, the spirit of the Beast. These are those who will be slaughtered at the return of the Lord, as written in both Revelation 19 and Ezekiel 39, and none of them will survive.

What has wpm and others confused is the idea that the battle in Revelation 19 is limited to one area, the area designated as the place of the winepress of God's wrath, which is identified in both Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 16:15 as Megiddo, the place that is called Hamongog in Ezekiel, (the valley where Gog is buried), and in Revelation it is called Armageddon. It is the same place, the modern-day Valley of Megiddo, to the east of Jerusalem. Unlike what some have tried to insiluate, the Lord does not slaughter all of the earth with the sword in His mouth. He slaughters everyone that is found in the winepress of God's wrath, the Valley of Megiddo. The Son's sacrifice to the birds does not encompass the entire earth, but entails all who are slaughtered at the winepress of the Lord's wrath, the Valley of Megiddo. (see Ezekiel 39 for more information, especially verses 9-16.)

The rest of the world will have their own problems, with all of their cities being destroyed by a massive earthquake, the mountains falling, the islands sinking, and the people being pelted by large 100lb hailstones.(Revelation 16:17-21) And if that wasn't enough, they will have to face the Victorious King, who will set up His Throne in Jerusalem, as is written in Zechariah 14, and will judge the world. (matthew 25:31-46). The remnant will be lucky enough to live and reproduce in a world free of both Satan and war. These are they which Zechariah 14 focuses on, and not the armies of the Beast.

And finally, in keeping with the OP, I still maintain, and have shown my evidence, stating that the heathen are those who will be ruled by Lord Jesus after He returns. They are the Millennium mortals.

And I forgot one more piece of evidence. And this is why Zechariah 14 is so important. Verse 18 clearly says who is to come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord every year from the time of His return to the end. Let's see what the scripture says.

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

In case anyone doesn't know, the heathen is a term to identify those nations that do not believe in the Lord Jesus. IN order to be a heathen, you have to reject Lord Jesus. The only people who are being ruled during the Millennium are those who are remnants of the world, otherwise called in scripture, the heathen. This is something that has not happened yet, for:

1. The original believers are still on this earth,
2. The Lord Jesus has not returned yet
3. The Lord's kingdom is not set up in Jerusalem, and
4. No one has ever had to go up to Jerusalem annually to worship Lord Jesus.

With that, I rest my case.

mdo757
Dec 2nd 2008, 04:28 AM
Mark 3:16. These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter 17 James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder); 18Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot 19and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. Revelation 10
The messenger and the Little Scroll

1Then I saw another strong messenger coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. 4And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down."

third hero
Dec 2nd 2008, 04:36 AM
Mark 3:16. These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter 17 James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder); 18Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot 19and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. Revelation 10
The messenger and the Little Scroll

1Then I saw another strong messenger coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. 4And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down."

I may be dense, but I do not see how any of this is relevant to the topic at hand, which is who are the ones who end up being the ones who are deceived by Satan after his release in Revelation 20. Please explain.

mdo757
Dec 2nd 2008, 04:50 AM
I may be dense, but I do not see how any of this is relevant to the topic at hand, which is who are the ones who end up being the ones who are deceived by Satan after his release in Revelation 20. Please explain. The people left in control are the seven Thunders, they are the Mount of the Congregation Zion. The thousand year reign of Christ is in Heaven and on earth.

wpm
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:03 AM
How many times do I have to say it? Didn't you read my last post? Oh, I get it. I didn't spiritualize the answer, and thus you could not see it.

Here, this might help you out. The nations that rise up against Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:1-2 is as much the Lord's Army as Satan is God's Son. Maybe you can understand that.

For everyone else who isn't insulted by reading plain ordinary 5th grade level English, I have answered this question over and over again. The remnant, the remnant of the nations that attack Jerusalem, are the peoples of the nations that will not participate in the Battle at Megiddo. They are those who, like the Americans who are still in America while we are fighting foes in Iraq, are left in their native towns and cities, those who are not soldiers or generals, or leaders.

The nations that overtake Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:1-2 is the very same army that is under the control of the Beast, the army that is called Magog in Ezekiel 38, who is ruled by Gog, the spirit of the Beast. These are those who will be slaughtered at the return of the Lord, as written in both Revelation 19 and Ezekiel 39, and none of them will survive.

What has wpm and others confused is the idea that the battle in Revelation 19 is limited to one area, the area designated as the place of the winepress of God's wrath, which is identified in both Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 16:15 as Megiddo, the place that is called Hamongog in Ezekiel, (the valley where Gog is buried), and in Revelation it is called Armageddon. It is the same place, the modern-day Valley of Megiddo, to the east of Jerusalem. Unlike what some have tried to insiluate, the Lord does not slaughter all of the earth with the sword in His mouth. He slaughters everyone that is found in the winepress of God's wrath, the Valley of Megiddo. The Son's sacrifice to the birds does not encompass the entire earth, but entails all who are slaughtered at the winepress of the Lord's wrath, the Valley of Megiddo. (see Ezekiel 39 for more information, especially verses 9-16.)

The rest of the world will have their own problems, with all of their cities being destroyed by a massive earthquake, the mountains falling, the islands sinking, and the people being pelted by large 100lb hailstones.(Revelation 16:17-21) And if that wasn't enough, they will have to face the Victorious King, who will set up His Throne in Jerusalem, as is written in Zechariah 14, and will judge the world. (matthew 25:31-46). The remnant will be lucky enough to live and reproduce in a world free of both Satan and war. These are they which Zechariah 14 focuses on, and not the armies of the Beast.

And finally, in keeping with the OP, I still maintain, and have shown my evidence, stating that the heathen are those who will be ruled by Lord Jesus after He returns. They are the Millennium mortals.

And I forgot one more piece of evidence. And this is why Zechariah 14 is so important. Verse 18 clearly says who is to come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord every year from the time of His return to the end. Let's see what the scripture says.

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

In case anyone doesn't know, the heathen is a term to identify those nations that do not believe in the Lord Jesus. IN order to be a heathen, you have to reject Lord Jesus. The only people who are being ruled during the Millennium are those who are remnants of the world, otherwise called in scripture, the heathen. This is something that has not happened yet, for:

1. The original believers are still on this earth,
2. The Lord Jesus has not returned yet
3. The Lord's kingdom is not set up in Jerusalem, and
4. No one has ever had to go up to Jerusalem annually to worship Lord Jesus.

With that, I rest my case.

In my view there are several weaknesses in what you are suggesting.

Premils have argued on these boards for yrs that Megiddo is the actual meeting place for the beast's army before the final attack upon Jerusalem. They identify this as the beast's attack on physical Jerusalem. Of course I reject this proposal - I will outline a couple of the reasons in this post. But what you are saying runs against this common Premil belief.

1. There is no mention of Meggido in Rev 19. It must be inserted.
2. You fail to see that there are only 2 peoples in this world - saved and lost. The saved belong to the Lord's army the wicked belong to the beast's.

After “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7), which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked.

John sees “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True … And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean” (11-14).

3. The beast's army is totally destroyed in Rev 19. There are no goats to inherit the millennium, as you contend. They are wiped. You have tried to minimise the destruction in Sodom a few days ago, and extend the destruction of the wicked to 40 days when Christ said they were destroyed in a day (Luke 17).

Everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” He destroys them by the very utterance[s] of His mouth. He then “treadeth (or tramples) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

The picture being portrayed here is that of the grapes being crushed by the vineyard worker making wine. The reference to “the winepress” is symbolic language denoting the fate of the wicked when Christ appears – that is why it is called “the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” The Christ-rejecter misses the catching away, and is consequently trampled underfoot like grapes being crushed in a winepress. The grapes are the disobedient of all nations.

How can these rebels possibly escape such a furious end? True judgment and righteousness has now arrived in the form of Christ and the glorified saints. Like every other Second Coming passage, this is climactic language describing the final end of rebellious man.

4. Zechariah shows the armies of the wicked/beast surviving. You then divorce them from the Meggido army. This is where I believe your theory hits problems. In fact your proof-texts totally conflict with each other.

This reminds me of what I contend is a similar contradiction for Premil in their locating Zechariah 14:18-19 at the Second Advent - where they have Egypt surviving the Second Advent and being ushered into a future millennial kingdom. However, Joel 3 refers to the complete destruction that accompanies Christ’s Coming.

Premillennialism overlooks the detail contained within Joel 3:15-19 that proves the Second Advent is all-consummating, saying, “The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake:but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim. Egypt shall be a desolation.”

5. For their attack against Jerusalem you reward them, ushering them unto the new earth. You know the Bible forbids them access.

The Amillennialist believes that Christ destroys every vestige of corruption and consequence of the fall at His return. Romans 8:19-23 confirms, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be (future tense) delivered from the bondage of corruption (death, sin and decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Creation and the creature will see a final and complete deliverance from the current bondage of corruption. Paul locates this liberation for creation at the time when the saints experience "the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body." This conclusively proves that the glorification of the earth occurs simultaneously with the glorification of our bodies.

I Corinthians 15:50 - makes it explicitly clear, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” This passage is speaking of the period immediately following the Coming of Christ. The whole context is man's ultimate deliverance from the corruptible state. It is talking of glorification and the eternal state on the new earth. This reading confirms that the new earth that is to be inherited is totally free of corruption. It is a perfect state. Man must therefore be changed to be worthy to inhabit it. Every vestige of the old must be removed. The fact is, “when that which is perfect is come” then “that which is in part shall be done away” (1 Corinthians 13:12).

DurbanDude
Dec 2nd 2008, 08:21 AM
wpm and john146, you can see from my post 126 that I was trying to wind down the discussion. I don't think it was deliberate of the two of you to suddenly increase the pace of the discussion immediately after my post, this was possibly just because of the timing on a Monday morning after the weekend.

But regardless , I don't see how this discussion will ever stop if both parties keep having the last say. I don't mind if others continue to discuss on this thread, but personally I want to wind down my involvement here. I believe both parties have had their say. A lot of the new material and questions are just continuations of arguments already made and repetitions.

If there is just one or two specific verses that you would like to focus on that you feel that should still be addressed I don't mind answering on this thread, and you are free to then have the last say on those. This debate has gone on far too long for me.

DIZZY
Dec 2nd 2008, 11:12 AM
Why do you have flesh and blood (people still with their mortal bodies) inheriting the kingdom when 1 Cor 15:50 clearly says that is not possible?


Hi John146,
I have answered this with a thread called who are these motals in the millennial kingdom.

forum lurker
Dec 2nd 2008, 12:00 PM
3. The beast's army is totally destroyed in Rev 19. There are no goats to inherit the millennium, as you contend.

Hello,

I believe the armies are destroyed, but some of the unbelievers will make it to the millennium. Otherwise releasing Satan would be completely pointless, since believers are already promised not to experience the 2nd death.

David Taylor
Dec 2nd 2008, 03:49 PM
So, you are saying that the church is a part of the world, instead of being separate from this world?


Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. -John 18:36

According to this scripture alone, the church, which is the kingdom of Lord Jesus, is NOT a part of this world.


No, now (as opposed to prior to Calvary) the church is comprised of people from the nations of the world.

Luke 24:45 "Then opened Jesus their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. "

Romans 1:4 "And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ"

John 17:16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world."

Acts 26:17 "Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."



Sorry, but this does not negate or fulfill the idea that the Lord will require all of the remnant of the nations who attacked Jerusalem to come to Jerusalem to worship the King of Kings during the feasts of tabernacles. Turning a statement into an allegory is not going to change it by any means. Besides, the specifics are too detailed to be allegorical.

I didn't say it negated it; but that those scriptures show Jesus fulfilled the Feast of Tabernacles. It's ok though, I don't have any problems with you looking for another future fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles.

I just believe that the remant from among the nations are presently today coming to the Holy Jerusalem to worship the King whom gives forth the living waters of life to them.

If that's allegorical, then I'm OK with it. Jesus being the bread of life and the door of the sheepfold and the vine and the lamb are all also figurative allegories; and I am OK with them too.

wpm
Dec 2nd 2008, 03:55 PM
Hello,

I believe the armies are destroyed, but some of the unbelievers will make it to the millennium. Otherwise releasing Satan would be completely pointless, since believers are already promised not to experience the 2nd death.

Thanks for your comments.

Who are in the beast's army and what unsaved are excluded?

What wicked are destroyed at Jesus return?

Paul

wpm
Dec 2nd 2008, 04:16 PM
wpm and john146, you can see from my post 126 that I was trying to wind down the discussion. I don't think it was deliberate of the two of you to suddenly increase the pace of the discussion immediately after my post, this was possibly just because of the timing on a Monday morning after the weekend.

But regardless , I don't see how this discussion will ever stop if both parties keep having the last say. I don't mind if others continue to discuss on this thread, but personally I want to wind down my involvement here. I believe both parties have had their say. A lot of the new material and questions are just continuations of arguments already made and repetitions.

If there is just one or two specific verses that you would like to focus on that you feel that should still be addressed I don't mind answering on this thread, and you are free to then have the last say on those. This debate has gone on far too long for me.

Discussions have a life of their own. If you are bowing out I would like to thank you for the time and effort you have put into your responses. There can be times of frustration when it seems others can't or won't grasp our point/position. What seems clear to us, is obscure to others.

I would also like to thank you for the manner in which you conducted these discussions. I wish you well.

John146
Dec 2nd 2008, 05:05 PM
Really? So the nations is the church now. That's what you are saying. Since when? The nations have always represented the heathen peoples all around the world. But yet, you want to change the meaning of the word "nations" to fit your POV. Who is changing what here?I have no idea what you're talking about. These comments don't have anything to do with what I said.


And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee. -Zechariah 14:5

It doesn't mention the Lord's return? Then tell me what does the reddened portion of that scripture mean? Tell me, what does the other verses from verse 6-9 mean? Talk about changing scripture, I am wondering which cliff notes version of Zechariah 14 did you read, because the things you claim are omitted are clearly present there.That is speaking about God the Father and His "holy ones". It's most likely speaking of the angels rather than the saints. Scripture uses language like that whenever God "comes" to deliver punishment. There is no mention of the coming of Christ in that verse. What is described in those verses is what happened in 70 AD. If it had to do with the second coming of Christ then why doesn't it line up with what is described in passages like Matthew 25:31-46? Where is the mention of believers being resurrected, caught up and gathered to Christ?

We have to start with what is clear and go from there. Zechariah 14 is one of the most debated chapters in all of scripture. Your understanding of it conflicts with clear scripture from the NT regarding the second coming of Christ. I understand that the chapter contains some things that make it seem similar to the second coming of Christ, but I don't believe it's good practice to force all other scripture to fit into your understanding of that one passage. This results in you blatantly changing clear NT scripture and coming up with interpretations of those NT passages that, frankly, boggle my mind. Such as entire nations being given eternal sentences (Matt 25:31-46).


According to my research, it appears that I am not the one who is altering scripture. Matthew 25:32 clearly states that the nations are being judged, and Matthew 25:32 shows that the nations are judged accordingto the actions they have one to "my brethern", which is, according to scripture, the Believers.Can you explain how entire nations could be told to enter the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34) and how they receive "life eternal" (Matt 25:46) and how entire nations could be cast into everlasting fire (Matt 25:41) for everlasting punishment (Matt 25:46)? Those are sentences that other scripture clearly indicates are given out to INDIVIDUALS on the day of judgment.

You're way off base in your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46. The sheep and goats are individuals that are from all nations. They are not sheep and goat nations. It is just like the parable of the wheat and tares. The wheat clearly refer to believers while the tares clearly refer to unbelievers. The tares/unbelievers are cast into a furnace of fire while the wheat/believers shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matthew 13:42-43). The same concept is taught in Matthew 25:31-46. Instead of wheat and tares, it's sheep and goats. But it's the same concept. Believers and unbelievers are all gathered before the throne at the same time with unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire.


I have not altered John 5:28-29 at all, you instead want that scripture to say things that it does not say. It says that the Lord will judge, and I totally agree with it. It does NOT give th e time in which He will do so, an error that you fail to acknowledge.It says an hour or time is coming in which all of the dead will be raised. At that same hour or time. It doesn't say two separate hours or times are coming, but that is how you read it.


1 Corinthians 15:23-24 has verses 25-26 to go along with it, furthering the clarification that Revelation 20 clearly presents, which is a time period after His return when He will rule the world until the last enemy is defeated, which is Death,. which happens after this earth and this heavens flee from His presence, AFTER the Millennium and the Rebellion that happens afterward.Death is defeated when Christ returns. There will be no more death at that point. It is soon after cast into the lake of fire, but it is actually defeated when He returns because no one will die after that. All we have to do is read further in the chapter to see when death is defeated.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

If death is swallowed up in victory, how can it not also be defeated?

Another thing that doesn't line up with your view is the fact that mortal flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God at that time. Yet you have many people of mortal flesh and blood entering into the supposed millennial kingdom. You do believe the kingdom that is mentioned in 1 Cor 15:50 is the millennial kingdom, right? The context of this passage demands that it has to be the kingdom that is manifested at the last trumpet.


Neither I, nor the premils, changed a single word. 2 Peter 3:10-13 has verses 3-6 to go along with them, which clearly talks of the time in which the world is to be destroyed. You want to make it the return of the Lord, when Peter is clearly talking about the final destruction fo the world, as highlighted in Revelation 20:10, which AGAIN is AFTER the Millennium, and AFTER the return of the Lord.The whole context of the chapter is the return of the Lord. That should be obvious.

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Here we see scoffers mocking and asking where is the promise of His coming? Then Peter says this:

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The scoffers think that if the Lord was coming He would have already come by now because it's been a long time. But it says that Lord is not slack concerning the promise of His coming. It hasn't been a long time in His terms and He is being patient because He wants to give people a chance to repent. But when Christ returns it will be too late because all the wicked will be destroyed and even the earth itself will be burned up. That's why Peter says we look forward to the new heavens and new earth because only righteousness will be found there.

John146
Dec 2nd 2008, 05:51 PM
I guess that you have a hard time comprehending what I was writing, and since I can not break down what I have said any further, I'll just have to repeat myself.

1. The rain lasted 40 days. The flood lasted 40 more days. Hence the Judgment of the destruction of the world by means of water lasted 80 days. This is more than one day of destruction. This is besides the point of this discussion, but just so you know, the rain lasted 40 days and the flood lasted 150 days (Gen 7:24, Gen 8:3). Anyway, the point that is being made is that no unbelievers survived. How long the destruction lasts isn't the issue. You are trying to say that some will survive the destruction that will come on the day Christ returns, but Jesus taught otherwise when He compared it to the days of Lot and the days of Noah when no unbelievers survived.


2. Since just like the days (plural) of Noah, so will it be at the days (plural) of the Son of Man. Lord Jesus's judgment does not happen in one day, but like Zechariah 14:12-15 and Matthew 25:31-46 suggests, the judgments lasts longer than one day.The days of Noah clearly refer to the days prior to the flood when people were eating and drinking and marrying. Do some research on this and you will see that a vast majority of Bible commentators agree on that and therefore disagree with you.


3. The days of the Lord's wrath are more than one, just like in the days of Noah. Just like the judgment on Sodom and Gamorrah, the judgment against the wicked will be complete, with no one surviving it other than the ones in whom the Lord spares, hence the Lot reference. And pleae, do not say that that man was righteous, because incest does not a righteous man does, even when he is drunk.Lot had faith. That doesn't mean he was perfect. He was rewarded for his faith. His wife did not have that kind of faith and that is why she looked back and ended up being killed like the rest of them that were still in Sodom. Likewise, the only one who will survive the Lord's coming are those who have faith and are saved.


The believers are NOT left, because they are taken to Him the MOMENT HE SHOWS UP IN THE AIR! So, since all of the righteous are removed from the earth and given immortality, then only the wicked are left, as Lot represents in my book.You are way off base by saying that Lot represents the wicked. Unbelievable. If he was truly among the wicked then he would have looked back just like his wife did. But he didn't because He feared God and had faith in Him.

2 Peter 2
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds )



The only reason why he was spared is because he did not participate in the type of wickedness that Sodom and Gamorrah was participating in. But a guy who commits incest, in my book, is just as wicked as the ones who participate in homosexuality, and yes, the Lord spared him. Noah was righteous, yet, but Lot was not. I totally disagree. He was spared because he had faith. If being perfect was required then no one would ever be spared. Scripture disagrees with you.

2 Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds )


I am not suggesting it. I am stating it. The nations are judged in Matthew 25:31-32. Verse 40 shows why He spares some of the heathen, and verse 45 shows the reason why the Lord will throw people into the Lake. None of them are righteous. If they were, they would be counted as part of the tribulation saints. Therefore, those who are counted as sheep wil be ruled by Lord Jesus with a rod of iron. Look up the meaning of rod of iron, and maybe you'll get it. Jesus would never rule over His brethern with a rod of iron, for He always gives us mercy. Therefore, th heathen are the only ones who would get this kind of treatment.You are saying the sheep are heathen? That is unbelievable. Since when do the heathen inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34) and since when are the heathen given eternal life (Matt 25:46)?

John146
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:12 PM
wpm and john146, you can see from my post 126 that I was trying to wind down the discussion. I don't think it was deliberate of the two of you to suddenly increase the pace of the discussion immediately after my post, this was possibly just because of the timing on a Monday morning after the weekend.I did read that post but I didn't realize your intent was to wind down the discussion. I personally still see some unresolved issues that we're trying to get at. If you want to bow out I'm fine with that, but there seems to be others that would like to continue the discussion, so why not?


But regardless , I don't see how this discussion will ever stop if both parties keep having the last say. I don't mind if others continue to discuss on this thread, but personally I want to wind down my involvement here.No problem


I believe both parties have had their say. A lot of the new material and questions are just continuations of arguments already made and repetitions.I believe some issues are being avoided such as the issue of your interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-19 conflicting with Revelation 19:15-21. You guys seem to see Zechariah 14:16-19 as allowing the beast army to survive the second coming of Christ while Revelation 19 clearly does not allow for that. I don't see how your view reconciles those two passages.


If there is just one or two specific verses that you would like to focus on that you feel that should still be addressed I don't mind answering on this thread, and you are free to then have the last say on those. This debate has gone on far too long for me.Well, the ones I just mentioned. I'd just like to know how you reconcile your interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-19 with your interpretation of Rev 19:15-21.

John146
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:15 PM
Thanks for your comments.

Who are in the beast's army and what unsaved are excluded?

What wicked are destroyed at Jesus return?

PaulTo add to your questions:

What is the criteria for some of the wicked to survive Christ's return while the rest do not?

What is the difference between those who survive and those who do not?

forum lurker
Dec 2nd 2008, 07:20 PM
Thanks for your comments.

Who are in the beast's army and what unsaved are excluded?

What wicked are destroyed at Jesus return?

Paul


To add to your questions:

What is the criteria for some of the wicked to survive Christ's return while the rest do not?

What is the difference between those who survive and those who do not?

Well, I don't have verses to support the idea that some of the wicked would survive. Maybe these survivers are agnostics, last minute believers, skeptics, etc. They certainly can't be true believers if Satan is able to decieve many of them.

John146
Dec 2nd 2008, 07:54 PM
Well, I don't have verses to support the idea that some of the wicked would survive.I think that is because there are none.


Maybe these survivers are agnostics, last minute believers, skeptics, etc. They certainly can't be true believers if Satan is able to decieve many of them.Of course, I'm sure you agree that is nothing more than speculation. If someone could actually show me scripture that tells us who exactly these survivors are and what it is about them that allows them to survive while the rest do not, then I'm willing to consider those. At the same time, it would be helpful if someone could explain how and why passages like Luke 17:26-30, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Rev 19:15-21 do not teach that all unbelievers will be destroyed when Christ returns.

Anyway, welcome to the forum. I noticed that this was only your second post.

wpm
Dec 2nd 2008, 08:08 PM
Well, I don't have verses to support the idea that some of the wicked would survive. Maybe these survivers are agnostics, last minute believers, skeptics, etc. They certainly can't be true believers if Satan is able to decieve many of them.

But Jesus said in Luke 17,“the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (v27).

Jesus continues,“the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29).

The Lord concludes,“Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (v 30).

Paul says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day” (II Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-11, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved.”

The writer of the Hebrews says in Heb 10:27, “a certain fearful looking forof judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

DIZZY
Dec 2nd 2008, 10:31 PM
Hello,

I believe the armies are destroyed, but some of the unbelievers will make it to the millennium. Otherwise releasing Satan would be completely pointless, since believers are already promised not to experience the 2nd death.

Hi forum lurker,
Yes, the armies of Satan are destroyed every single wicked person is destroyed off the face of this earth.

Revelation 16:12-16
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon
We must remember it is a thousand year reign and in that thousand year reign the believers have children. These children have a choice to serve the Lord or to disobey.

When the Lord was here the first time people had a choice to believe or not to believe, to live in darkness or to come into the light, those who believed gained eternal life, those who did not believe will die the eternal death in the lake of fire.

The same will happen to those who choose to disobey the Lord in the millenial kingdom. Satan will gather them together as his army and go up against the camp of the Lord. Then God will rain fire down from heaven and destroy them all. Satan will be cast into the lake of fire where his friends the Beast and the False Prophet are.

The you have the Great White Throne Judgment and all those who are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire.

The believers that went into the millennial kingdom were promised they would not take part in the second death. But their unbelieving children will.

crush
Dec 3rd 2008, 01:56 AM
At the same time, it would be helpful if someone could explain how and why passages like Luke 17:26-30, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Rev 19:15-21 do not teach that all unbelievers will be destroyed when Christ returns.


I'll give it a shot

Luke 17:26-30:
I really don't see where you are getting total destruction of the wicked from this text so I might have trouble answering before you clarify. I understand that all wicked on earth were destroyed by the flood, but the destruction at Sodom and Gomorrah was a localized event leaving plenty of wicked elsewhere on the Earth? Likewise the fiery destruction against the Beast and his armies at Armageddon is also localized.

Remember the "wheat and tares" parable? The wicked are gathered into bundles on the field [earth] and burned, the field is not burned, the bundles on the field are burned leaving scorched places on the field but a relatively unburned field [earth]. The "wheat" has already been gathered into the barn at the Second Coming, so if it was the intention of the Lord to destroy all wicked he could simply burn the whole field instead of just the bundles. This does not happen regardless of what 2 Peter 3:10 in your bible says;)

The gist of this text IMO is that the destruction comes on those leading wicked lives unexpectedly or without warning as it did in S&G. Of course those in Noah's day were well warned, but did not believe it was coming, so they were also surprised.

Besides this, if you keep reading past vs. 30, to vs. 31-37, you will see that on this very day of destruction at least half of the people are not killed.

Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

If you'll notice in vs. 37 the disciples ask the Lord where these people are "taken" and his answer is they are killed. So I think that you have a strong case here for half of the wicked being killed, that's about it though.

Peter 3:10-12:

Okay, this is the granddaddy of them all and I would say that you have an ironclad case to hang your doctrine on based on this text, if this text was correct as written. It is not. 3:10 as it appears in your bible, and every bible based on the "textus receptus" texts is miscopied, and is not what Peter originally wrote.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

All modern scholars agree that "shall be burned up" or katakaio is a replacement by later copyist for the original "discovered" or heurisko. So this drastically changes the meaning of the verse. So on the "day of the Lord", when he comes as a thief, the earth is not burned up katakaio, it is heurisko.

G2147. heurisko hyoo-ris'-ko, a prolonged form of a primary heuro hyoo'-ro, which (together with another cognate form) heureo hyoo-reh'-o is used for it in all the tenses except the present and imperfect to find (literally or figuratively):--find, get, obtain, perceive, see.

Now as for the earth burning up, being utterly destroyed as it appears to be in vs. 3:12,I agree with you 100% that it does just like Rev 21:1 says it does. The trouble is that Rev 20 puts the chronology of this event 1000 years after the "day of the Lord".


2 Thess 1:7-10:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The Lord does indeed take vengeance with fire at his coming, and they are certainly cast into the "lake of fire" at that time. And we are told exactly who also, with a little searching.

The Beast and False prophet:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

His armies:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Now I don't disagree that All that have the "mark of the beast" are cast into the "lake of fire", just not at the time of the second coming, later at "sheep and goats".

At the time of the second coming there are two things that happen against these particular wicked mentioned in 2 Thess 1:7-10. Christ takes "vengeance with fire" and he "cast them into the lake of fire". These "two" punishments limit the wicked that are directly effected at the SC to the "armies of the Beast" at Armageddon, this does not contradict the text of 2 Thess 1:7-10, and it is not to say that the rest with "the mark of the Beast" don't get what's coming to them soon after....



Rev 19:15-21:
Well for starters in Rev 19 we are told that the Lord "smites" the nations then "rules them with a rod of iron", it really wouldn't stand to reason that everyone from these "nations" were killed otherwise he'd have no one to rule over....

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

And next, we are told exactly who is defeated on that day (Armageddon):

1)The Beast
2)The False Prophet
3)their armies

How you get that this is every wicked person on Earth I don't understand.....Does the Beast have everyone on Earth in his army.....even babies LOL

And on another note, in Daniel we are told that on this day when the Beast is defeated and cast into the Lake of Fire the other "beasts" (which are also wicked and are assembled against Israel at the battleground of the valley of Jehosophat) are not killed but allowed to live a specified amount of time, "a season and a time". In keeping with the Daniel timekeeping method of a "time" equaling one year (ex. time, times, and halving of time = 3 1/2 yrs) this would mean that the "other beasts" are allowed to live for more than a year after the battle at Armageddon... how do you reconcile this with all wicked being destroyed on that day?

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

third hero
Dec 3rd 2008, 04:41 AM
I didn't say it negated it; but that those scriptures show Jesus fulfilled the Feast of Tabernacles. It's ok though, I don't have any problems with you looking for another future fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles.

I just believe that the remant from among the nations are presently today coming to the Holy Jerusalem to worship the King whom gives forth the living waters of life to them.

If that's allegorical, then I'm OK with it. Jesus being the bread of life and the door of the sheepfold and the vine and the lamb are all also figurative allegories; and I am OK with them too.

David,
Jesus CAN NOT fulfill the requirement of the feast of tabernacles. That IS my point. Th4e refugees from the return of the Lord have to fulfill it, for the contextual requirement does not fall upon Lord Jesus, but the heathen that He commands to come to Jerusalem yearly to worship Him. That has not, nor will be fulfilled until AFTER the Lord has returned to set up the requirement.


What I am saying, and what I have been saying, is that the verses in Zechariah 14 can not be allegorical for the simple fact that the things that are mentioned there are too specific to be allegory. The detail that Zechariah gives to these passages leads me to conclude that this is not allegory at all, but rather a prophecy that gives exact details, like the heathen coming to Jerusalem yearly in order to worship the Lord, and the punishment for those who refuse to carry out His requirement. That is not allegory, and I can not accept such an explanation.

You see, the worshippers today do not go to any sort of Jerusalem to worship the King of Kings, as Lord Jesus explains in John 4. Worshippers are not required to worship in Jerusalem, but in spirit and in truth. When the Lord comes, those who are labeled "the heathen" will be required to worship Lord Jesus at one given place at one given time. Therefore, I can not accept the allegory explanation, because it does not make biblical sense.

wpm
Dec 3rd 2008, 05:26 AM
David,
Jesus CAN NOT fulfill the requirement of the feast of tabernacles. That IS my point. Th4e refugees from the return of the Lord have to fulfill it, for the contextual requirement does not fall upon Lord Jesus, but the heathen that He commands to come to Jerusalem yearly to worship Him. That has not, nor will be fulfilled until AFTER the Lord has returned to set up the requirement.


What I am saying, and what I have been saying, is that the verses in Zechariah 14 can not be allegorical for the simple fact that the things that are mentioned there are too specific to be allegory. The detail that Zechariah gives to these passages leads me to conclude that this is not allegory at all, but rather a prophecy that gives exact details, like the heathen coming to Jerusalem yearly in order to worship the Lord, and the punishment for those who refuse to carry out His requirement. That is not allegory, and I can not accept such an explanation.

You see, the worshippers today do not go to any sort of Jerusalem to worship the King of Kings, as Lord Jesus explains in John 4. Worshippers are not required to worship in Jerusalem, but in spirit and in truth. When the Lord comes, those who are labeled "the heathen" will be required to worship Lord Jesus at one given place at one given time. Therefore, I can not accept the allegory explanation, because it does not make biblical sense.

Revelation 21:9-10 confirms: “Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”

DIZZY
Dec 3rd 2008, 05:37 AM
The bible tells us that when the Lord comes all the wicked will be destroyed. We are shown this by the two pictures painted for us in Matthew 24:36-38 and Luke 17:27-29. The ark was finished and God said to Noah come into the ark, Noah entered the ark with His family and all were saved from the flood that came upon the whole world.

Lot and his family lived in Sodom and the wicked cries of Sodom went up to God in heaven, so God decided to destroy Sodom for the evil that was in it. Yes it was a localized destruction because that is what God had planned. Lot and his family were dragged out of Sodom and then Sodom was destroyed.
The picture we have in both of these books is that God will save the righteous and the wicked will be destroyed, this is what Matthew and Luke are saying. God will destroy the wicked leaving the righteous to go into the millennial kingdom.

Matthew 24:36-38
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

Luke 17:27-29
27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

In all the verses below we have a picture of the wicked been taken and the righteous being left behind

Matthew 24:39-42
39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 2 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

Luke 17:33-35
33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”7And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Psalm 37:9-11
9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the LORD,
They shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

third hero
Dec 3rd 2008, 05:40 AM
In my view there are several weaknesses in what you are suggesting.

Premils have argued on these boards for yrs that Megiddo is the actual meeting place for the beast's army before the final attack upon Jerusalem. They identify this as the beast's attack on physical Jerusalem. Of course I reject this proposal - I will outline a couple of the reasons in this post. But what you are saying runs against this common Premil belief.

1. There is no mention of Meggido in Rev 19. It must be inserted.
2. You fail to see that there are only 2 peoples in this world - saved and lost. The saved belong to the Lord's army the wicked belong to the beast's.

I grow weary of this prattle. IN my explanation, I mentioned how one phrase in Revelation 19 brings into effect scriptures from other portions of the book. "Winepress of God's wrath" brings into effect Revelation 14:16-20 and chapter 16;13-14 and 16; verse 16 explicitly identifies the name of the place as Armageddon. Your "no mention in chapter 19" excuse is not going to cut the mustard. The fact that it mentions the winepress gives credence to the other chapters in the book of Revelation that gives more details as to what place is the place of God's wrath. I know that you don't care, mainly because you participate in questionable tactics for the purpose of winning a debate, and thus evidence that matters are shuffled under the rug.


After “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7), which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked.

Where does it say that all saints ar glorified? All I see here is that the marriage is happening and the saints are arrayed in white linen, the linen are the righteousness of the saints. It does not mention that all of the saints from all times and ages are here, and there is a reason why. Revelation 20:4-6 is that reason.


John sees “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True … And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean” (11-14).

3. The beast's army is totally destroyed in Rev 19. There are no goats to inherit the millennium, as you contend. They are wiped. You have tried to minimise the destruction in Sodom a few days ago, and extend the destruction of the wicked to 40 days when Christ said they were destroyed in a day (Luke 17).


You say that the armies of the Beast are destroyed, and indeed they are destroyed at Megiddo. But you stretch the Beast's armies to include the citizens of the earth, something that is not mentioned, or implied in chapter 19.

Did you read Genesis 7? It is not me who "extended" the days of God's wrath during the time of Noah. Scripture does. Here, take a look.

And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. Genesis 7;10-12

As scripture clearly states, the days of the wrath of the Lord during the time of Noah was fourty days. BUt that's not all, the actual time extended more than 100 days, as 7:24 clearly state. This is not Premil metling, this is scripture talking.


Everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” He destroys them by the very utterance[s] of His mouth. He then “treadeth (or tramples) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

Conclusion based on assumptions refuted earlier in this post.


The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath, indignation and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Go to the Greek to prove what context and other scripture disproves. I am sorry, but Greek and the meaning of the Greek, especially coming from those who have no other desire but to win at all costs, means nothing to me. We are dealing with Biblical scripture here, and even by using your cherished "using scripture to interpret scripture" contradicts your conclusions.

IN this case, nothing you say can refute all of the scriptures that mentions God's wrath as being fiery while the methods of His vengeance is being anything other than all consuming fire. My latest example is Revelation 19, where in verse 12 the Lord's eyes are ablaze with the Wrath of God, while the instrument of His wrath, as described in verse 15, is the double-edged sword in His mouth.



The picture being portrayed here is that of the grapes being crushed by the vineyard worker making wine. The reference to “the winepress” is symbolic language denoting the fate of the wicked when Christ appears – that is why it is called “the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” The Christ-rejecter misses the catching away, and is consequently trampled underfoot like grapes being crushed in a winepress. The grapes are the disobedient of all nations.

Again, using your "scripture to interpret scripture", the phrase "winepress of God's wrath" brings in other verses that are connected to that phrase. First, in chapter 14, where there are two gatherings, one being th saints gathered to the Son of Man, and the other by an angel that gathers the grapes into the winepress of God's wrath. Second, in chapter 16, where we see Satan, who is a fallen "angel", gathering the grapes of wrath together, to challenge the Son of God, and the Lord gathering His people, (verse 15). Verse 16 tells us the place of the winepress of God's wrath, namely Armageddon, the valley of Megiddo. This is not conjecture from Premil myth, but actual scripture detailing what you propose to be figurative.


How can these rebels possibly escape such a furious end? True judgment and righteousness has now arrived in the form of Christ and the glorified saints. Like every other Second Coming passage, this is climactic language describing the final end of rebellious man.

4. Zechariah shows the armies of the wicked/beast surviving. You then divorce them from the Meggido army. This is where I believe your theory hits problems. In fact your proof-texts totally conflict with each other.

WRONG, YET, AGAIN!

1. The grapes of the Lord's wrath, those mentioned in Revelation 19, so not survive. These are the very same as those who are called Magog in Ezekiel 38-39. None of them survive.

2. Zechariah 14 mentions the people who did not participate in the Battle at Megiddo. You see examples of peoples and nations at war even today, and yet, even though the nations are at war, not all of the citizens of that nation are participating. This is a simple concept that those without agendas can understand.


This reminds me of what I contend is a similar contradiction for Premil in their locating Zechariah 14:18-19 at the Second Advent - where they have Egypt surviving the Second Advent and being ushered into a future millennial kingdom. However, Joel 3 refers to the complete destruction that accompanies Christ’s Coming.

Premillennialism overlooks the detail contained within Joel 3:15-19 that proves the Second Advent is all-consummating, saying, “The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake:but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim. Egypt shall be a desolation.”

Premils do not ignore Joel 3. You ignore what Zechariah 14:18-19 brings to Joel 3. For instance, Joel 3 states that Egypt will become a desolation, while Zechariah 14 shows us what they will do to make this desolation happen. They do not clash, but complement each other. Both happen during the time when the Lord rules over all of the earth, which happens AFTER He makes His grand return to the earth, a point that Amils miss somehow.



5. For their attack against Jerusalem you reward them, ushering them unto the new earth. You know the Bible forbids them access.


How many more times do I have to show that I am not the one rewarding anyone, but rather, the Lord is giving mercy to whom He gives mercy to, as shown in Matthew 25:31-46, which again happens AFTER the Lord returns, which again proves that the Lord does not completely destroy the World at His return. In fact, Jesus doesn't destroy the world at all. God the Father does. This is the point that you miss in 2 Peter 3, and Revelation 20:10.

The New earth does not happen until the old earth and the old system is completely destroyed, and that does not happen until the last enemy of God is destroyed, which is Death itself. Revelation 20 clearly explains this, while your explanations only give credence to confusion. The Earth is not New as in Revelation 21 new. The Millennium happens on this earth, although according to chapter 16, this earth will be seriously altered, it is still this earth. The New Earth, the earth that will house New Jerusalem, will not come into being until ALL evil is removed from existence. this is why it is not even mentioned until after the Lord judges all mankind in chapter 20:11-15. Therefore, the millennium can house people who were considered "the heathen" while not being sent to the bitterness of the Lake, hence buffering my stance on Matthew 25:31-46.



The Amillennialist believes that Christ destroys every vestige of corruption and consequence of the fall at His return. Romans 8:19-23 confirms, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be (future tense) delivered from the bondage of corruption (death, sin and decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Well, 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 refutes your idea, since according to verse 23 alone, the end comes AFTER the Lord's return, with verse 25 stating that the Lord must reign until the last enemy is defeated, with vberse 26 mentioning the name of that last enemy being death itself. One thing that amils get confused is the fact that this form of death is not just the death that He gives the believers victory over at His return, but death over all of humanity. That enemy has to be defeated first, and then the Lord will hand over the earth to the Father, as mentioned in verse 24. Again, this is not premil imaginings, but scripture readings, as per the context of the passages without the need for altering or interpreting.


Creation and the creature will see a final and complete deliverance from the current bondage of corruption. Paul locates this liberation for creation at the time when the saints experience "the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body." This conclusively proves that the glorification of the earth occurs simultaneously with the glorification of our bodies.

I Corinthians 15:50 - makes it explicitly clear, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” This passage is speaking of the period immediately following the Coming of Christ. The whole context is man's ultimate deliverance from the corruptible state. It is talking of glorification and the eternal state on the new earth. This reading confirms that the new earth that is to be inherited is totally free of corruption. It is a perfect state. Man must therefore be changed to be worthy to inhabit it. Every vestige of the old must be removed. The fact is, “when that which is perfect is come” then “that which is in part shall be done away” (1 Corinthians 13:12).


If it was final at His return, then explain Revelation 20:7-10, which happens 1000 years after the Lord returns and gives the tribulation saints total victory over death and all of it's forms.

third hero
Dec 3rd 2008, 06:29 AM
I have no idea what you're talking about. These comments don't have anything to do with what I said.

Actually, it does. You want to make Matthew 25:31-46 to mean that the Lord is judging His people, but the truth of the matter is that the Lord is judging the nations, which have always meant in both the OT and the NT as the heathen nations. You want the term "nations" to mean one thing in one phrase in the Bible where it doesn't mean that in any other verse in the entire Bible. Hopefully, this will clear up the clouds in your memory.


That is speaking about God the Father and His "holy ones". It's most likely speaking of the angels rather than the saints. Scripture uses language like that whenever God "comes" to deliver punishment. There is no mention of the coming of Christ in that verse. What is described in those verses is what happened in 70 AD. If it had to do with the second coming of Christ then why doesn't it line up with what is described in passages like Matthew 25:31-46? Where is the mention of believers being resurrected, caught up and gathered to Christ?

1. The term used in Zechariah 14:5 is "saints". These are not angels, or "holy ones" as you claim. They are saints, and the saints are the people of Lord Jesus, the church.

2. When the scripture says, "then the Lord my God will come, and all of His saints with thee", that says to me, the Lord returns, not the Lord allows the Temple to be destroyed. Context prevents me from making any of the presupppositions that you propose.

3. Zechariah 14:18 lines up with Matthew 25:32, for the Lord judges the "nations", and the "heathen" must adhere to those judgments in Zechariah 14:18.


We have to start with what is clear and go from there. Zechariah 14 is one of the most debated chapters in all of scripture. Your understanding of it conflicts with clear scripture from the NT regarding the second coming of Christ. I understand that the chapter contains some things that make it seem similar to the second coming of Christ, but I don't believe it's good practice to force all other scripture to fit into your understanding of that one passage. This results in you blatantly changing clear NT scripture and coming up with interpretations of those NT passages that, frankly, boggle my mind. Such as entire nations being given eternal sentences (Matt 25:31-46).

1. Revelation 20 is the most debated scripture, because that chapter takes no prisoners.

2. Zechariah 14 is the OT evidence of the things mentioned in Revelation 20:1-7, along with Daniel 7.

3. the reason why it is debated among the amils is because these chapters disprove your positions, and thus, likened to the Jw's you have to figure out a way to debunk them, something that premils like me make it increasingly difficult.

4. The judgments in Matthew 25:31-46 entend throughout the time period of the Lord's kingdom on this earth, and not the one on the next. The New Earth, as mentioned in Revelation 21, does not have sin, or sinners, on the face of it, for it is the place where God will finally live amongst men, and God can not reside in a place where sin abides. This is why the Lord judges all mankind in Revelation 20:11-15, before the New heaven and New Earth comes into existence.


Can you explain how entire nations could be told to enter the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34) and how they receive "life eternal" (Matt 25:46) and how entire nations could be cast into everlasting fire (Matt 25:41) for everlasting punishment (Matt 25:46)? Those are sentences that other scripture clearly indicates are given out to INDIVIDUALS on the day of judgment.

What was this earth originally made for, if it is not made for men to inhabit with the Lord ruling over it directly? This is why God walked in Eden when Adam and Eve walked the earth. This is why Eden had to be removed from the earth when sin was found in Adam and Eve. This world was not made for sin to infect. This earth was made for mankind to live under the direct rule of God, and He will make that happen, when the Lord, God's Son, comes to this earth to extinguish the evil in the midst of it, and give the people who are left a taste of what the earth was suppose to be like during Adam and Eve's time.

Matthew 25:46 sums up the entire chapter, which includes the parable of the ten virgins, which deal with the righteous, and the judgment of the wicked, which are sent into everlasting destruction.


You're way off base in your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46. The sheep and goats are individuals that are from all nations. They are not sheep and goat nations. It is just like the parable of the wheat and tares. The wheat clearly refer to believers while the tares clearly refer to unbelievers. The tares/unbelievers are cast into a furnace of fire while the wheat/believers shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matthew 13:42-43). The same concept is taught in Matthew 25:31-46. Instead of wheat and tares, it's sheep and goats. But it's the same concept. Believers and unbelievers are all gathered before the throne at the same time with unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire.

I am not "way off" at all. You neglect the simple word that changes everything in reference to whom the Lord is Judging. Like it or not, the term "nations" appear in verse 32.

Moreover, you neglect to see what the Lord uses to judge the nations, and that judgment is dependent on how the people treated HIS BRETHERN, the church.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me. Matthew 25:40

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. Matthew 25:45

Who are the "these" in verse 45? The "my brethern" in verse 40. Who are the King's brethern? Those who obey the Will of His Father, as mentioned in Matthew 12:50.


It says an hour or time is coming in which all of the dead will be raised. At that same hour or time. It doesn't say two separate hours or times are coming, but that is how you read it.

No, that is what Revelation 20 states. Revelation 20 mentions 2 resurrections, one of the Tribulation saints, and the other being the rest of humanity. I didn't read into chapter 20. You do not include the reading of Revelation 20 into your paradigm, which is a mistake.


Death is defeated when Christ returns. There will be no more death at that point. It is soon after cast into the lake of fire, but it is actually defeated when He returns because no one will die after that. All we have to do is read further in the chapter to see when death is defeated.

Death is defeated against the believers at His return. Death is finally defeated when Jesus goes to judge all of mankind, as mentioned in Revelation 20:14 and 1 Corinthians 15:26. The "gap" which is clearly explained in BOTH 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 and Revelation 20:4-15 is at least 1000 years.


50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

If death is swallowed up in victory, how can it not also be defeated?

Who is freed from the grip of death at the Lord's return? The believers. Is death defeated in totality? According to the same author in the same chapter just a few verses earlier, at the end, when heaven and earth are given back to the Father, after Lord Jesus reigns until the last foe, Death, is defeated. Now, it is up to you to determine how Death is swallowed up when the believers recieve their incorruptible bodies and not defeated until after Christ reigns over this earth. To me, I do not have to worry about such prattle, since Paul mentions in verse 23-26 what John reinforces in chapter 20:10-14. Therefore, upon the testimony of two or more witnesses, such a thing is established.


Another thing that doesn't line up with your view is the fact that mortal flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God at that time. Yet you have many people of mortal flesh and blood entering into the supposed millennial kingdom. You do believe the kingdom that is mentioned in 1 Cor 15:50 is the millennial kingdom, right? The context of this passage demands that it has to be the kingdom that is manifested at the last trumpet.

Now the burden of proof is to you. Prove that 1 Corinthians 15 is all about who is allowed to enter the Kingdom fo Christ, and prove where not one of the remnant of the nations are being ruled by Christ.


The whole context of the chapter is the return of the Lord. That should be obvious.

Sorry, but the entire chapter is concerning the Lord's victory over death, which is exhaustively explained throughout the entire chapter. this includes both the Return, and the end of the earth, which occurs AFTER the Millennium of Peace, at the end of days, after Satan, Gog and Magog is finally and completely defeated, with no survivors in the world, let alone in Megiddo.


3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Here we see scoffers mocking and asking where is the promise of His coming? Then Peter says this:

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The scoffers think that if the Lord was coming He would have already come by now because it's been a long time. But it says that Lord is not slack concerning the promise of His coming. It hasn't been a long time in His terms and He is being patient because He wants to give people a chance to repent. But when Christ returns it will be too late because all the wicked will be destroyed and even the earth itself will be burned up. That's why Peter says we look forward to the new heavens and new earth because only righteousness will be found there.

Again, verses 2-4 explains that the earth is reserved for destruction by means of fire, and the coming is that of it's destruction, hecne the scoffers. The scoffers are not denying the existence of God, but rather, are scoffing at the fact that the earth is devoted to destruction by fire, which happens at the end of that chapter. This has nothing to do with Lord Jesus's return. The term coming is not exclusive to the return of the Lord.

One thing I find funny though, you are easy to say that the term "coming" refers to the Lord's return, but you utterly deny it when Zechariah 14:5b clearly mentions the Lord's coming with His saints, something that you do not find in 2 Peter 3. So you only pick and choose only those definitions that suit your causes, and deny those that run counter to your POV? Again, another mistake, one that I can not help but point out. Consistency is an issue with the Amil POV, and this is yet another reason why I could never accept it. It has more leaps in iit's logic than dispensationalism, another POV that I can not help but to reject.

wpm
Dec 3rd 2008, 06:33 AM
I grow weary of this prattle. IN my explanation, I mentioned how one phrase in Revelation 19 brings into effect scriptures from other portions of the book. "Winepress of God's wrath" brings into effect Revelation 14:16-20 and chapter 16;13-14 and 16; verse 16 explicitly identifies the name of the place as Armageddon. Your "no mention in chapter 19" excuse is not going to cut the mustard. The fact that it mentions the winepress gives credence to the other chapters in the book of Revelation that gives more details as to what place is the place of God's wrath. I know that you don't care, mainly because you participate in questionable tactics for the purpose of winning a debate, and thus evidence that matters are shuffled under the rug.

First, I am not going to get into your chides and insults - that is for others to censure. Again, this does not do you or your argument any favours.

Second, you create groups and sub-groups within the wicked and righteous in order to facilitate the mass re-population of the wicked into the Premil millennium. Amils strongly reject this. They believe there are only 2 peoples on this earth - as there has always been - saved and lost. When Jesus comes the righteous will all be rescued, the wicked will all be destroyed. This is a repeated and clear truth throughout Scripture. In all Christ's teaching He only saw 2 peoples, not 3 or 4 as you submit. His parables are a case-in-point.

He described the wicked as goats or tares, the righteous as sheep and wheat. Rev 19 fits into this undoubted and repeated pattern.

The Lord encounters only types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. Premils invent a third group in order to populate a supposed future millennium after the Coming of the Lord. They say they are a company of mortals too wicked to be sheep (and be raptured) but also too good to be goats. However, Scripture knows nothing of such half-breeds.

In Revelation the Lord describes two people and two marks. We see that both of these two spiritual marks are referred to in generous detail:

God’s Mark – Revelation 3:12, 7:3, 4 (x2), 5 (x3), 6 (x3), 7 (x3), 8 (x3), 9:4, 14:1, 22:4.

This favoured company are found in the heavenly Mount Zion.

Beast's Mark – Revelation 13:16, 14:9, 11, 15:2, 16:2, 19:20, 20:4.

This rebellious company are found shut out of that great heavenly city.

God's people are viewed as an army and so are the wicked. Revelation 19:11-19 records Christ’s victorious return as Judge to destroy all wickedness: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

Christ is not coming as Saviour of the world at the end but as its Judge. This is a solemn day for the wicked. Here we see the great final battle of the ages between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. On one side on earth you have the wicked confederacy of the beast’s armies on earth (namely all the wicked) arrayed against the armies of heaven (appearing in the sky) which relates to the people of God that are redeemed.

There are clearly two opposing armies in view here in this reading: the army of God, led by Christ, and the army of Satan. One is totally victorious; the other one is totally annihilated. This is talking about two kingdoms that are at war - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. This is consistent with repeated Scripture.

These 2 peoples/armies carry one of 2 marks - God's mark or the world's mark of reprobation. This is a book full of symbolism denoting the great battle between light and darkness. There are only two different peoples in this life, they are walking two different roads, in two different directions, to two different destinations. The Christian is bound for heaven; the sinner is bound for hell. One group has the mark of the Father the other the mark of the beast. One is rescued in the marriage of the lamb, the other is destroyed.

The army of heaven (embodying the redeemed of all ages) returns after being caught up for the marriage of the lamb, leaving just one army on earth – the wicked. That is why this passage makes clear that this 'left behind' army is totally destroyed. This clearly rebuts Premil and forbids it. It leaves no goats left to saturate its millennium. Revelation 19:19 describes the righteous redeemed army, which includes the elect of all time (those that possess the spiritual robes of Christ's righteousness). It is this company that is rescued by Christ before He pours out His wrath upon the wicked. This will be like the destruction of the wicked in Noah and Lot’s day. The world was destroyed by water in Noah’s day and Sodom was obliterated by fire in his day.


Where does it say that all saints ar glorified? All I see here is that the marriage is happening and the saints are arrayed in white linen, the linen are the righteousness of the saints. It does not mention that all of the saints from all times and ages are here, and there is a reason why. Revelation 20:4-6 is that reason.

Again, this is where is see the achilles heel of Premil. This reveals a notable weakness in the Premil position. Their cry is constantly, 'what saith Rev 20' instead of the correct "what saith Scripture." Everything in Scripture is interpretated in the light of Rev 20. This is unfortunate, not only because it is a mistaken way of biblical hermeneutics, because that the Premil view of Rev in my opinion is gravely flawed.

Anyway, 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 reinforces the 2 peoples truth, saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then (or) eita (or thereupon)cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down (or) katargeésee (or abolished) all rule and all authority and power.”

Again, Scripture only sees saved and lost - here described as those "in Christ" and those "in Adam." There can me no sub-groups or sub-divisions as you suggest. All the righteous are glorified at the catching away, all the wicked are killed. Moreover, the Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” This all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.


You say that the armies of the Beast are destroyed, and indeed they are destroyed at Megiddo. But you stretch the Beast's armies to include the citizens of the earth, something that is not mentioned, or implied in chapter 19.

We the Church are soldiers in an army fighting for truth (2 Timothy 2:3-4). The devil's army is the beast's troops - the wicked. You try to make more sub-groups of wicked to sustain the Premil theory and facilitate the swamping of the Premil new earth with the wicked. This to me is an error. This runs against the biblical teaching of only two peoples saved and lost - Christ's or Satan's, heaven or hell. First, there is no mention of Meggiddo or Jerusalem or any local battle here. One would have to import it in.



You say that the armies of the Beast are destroyed, and indeed they are destroyed at Megiddo. But you stretch the Beast's armies to include the citizens of the earth, something that is not mentioned, or implied in chapter 19.

Whilst you try to limit the beast's influence, Scripture doesn't. His army is bigger than you think. Revelation 13:8 states, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

The aforementioned verse tells us that his/its adherents include every single person “whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Therefore, the beast specifically and symbolically must relate to some all-embracing Christ-rejecting influence or body that controls the affections of the sum total of the non-elect, those that will be eternally damned. I believe it is talking about the Christ-rejecting world. All the rejecters of Christ are classed in the beast's camp. They take the mark and lose their eternal soul.

DurbanDude
Dec 3rd 2008, 06:59 AM
I believe some issues are being avoided such as the issue of your interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-19 conflicting with Revelation 19:15-21. You guys seem to see Zechariah 14:16-19 as allowing the beast army to survive the second coming of Christ while Revelation 19 clearly does not allow for that. I don't see how your view reconciles those two passages.

Well, the ones I just mentioned. I'd just like to know how you reconcile your interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-19 with your interpretation of Rev 19:15-21.

john146,

I have never seen any conflict there. The two chapters support eachother in many ways.

I have never even implied that there will be survivors from the beast's army, because even in the opening post you can see that I categorically state that I believe this army will be destroyed. I think that the reason you are battling to understand this is your assumption that the war in Rev 19 and the war in Rev 20 are the same war, involving all the inhabitants of earth. Pre-mills obviously separate these wars. The Rev 19 war involves the nations just as WW2 involved most nations on earth. Many nations were involved as allies in Europe during WW2 , but this does not imply that their entire populations were in Europe.

Rev 19:17-21 is specifically about a war; and clearly indicates that there is complete destruction of the armies , all men , both free and slave are destroyed. Some say that the phrase "all men" means all on the face of the earth, but this would contradict other verses and doesn't make sense in the context it was written, the context was a specific war. For example if I am describing a war, let's say the Battle of Isandlwana and state that the Zulu's were victorious and "every man was destroyed", there is no assumption that this means every briton was destroyed throughout earth.

Yet earlier in Rev 19:15 the bible states that at the second coming He will "smite the nations" and "He shall rule them with a rod of iron"

The very nations that Jesus strikes, are the nations to be ruled over. The "rod of iron" indicates a rule of discipline. We reign with Christ, so I doubt this is in any way referring to surviving resurrected saints. You stated that this rule could be referring to the nations' destruction, but the words "shall rule" implying a later event show that this ruling happens after the striking of the nations. Also we all know what the word "rule" means.

Taking this all into account Rev 19 is referring to total destruction of the attacking armies at the second coming, and then He rules the nations with a rod of iron.

Zechariah 14 describes the same situation, the destruction of the armies in Zech 14:12
Zechariah 14 describes the same situation: the survival of the nations under a rule of discipline:
14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain

In this way I believe both Rev 19 and Zechariah 14 strongly support eachother with regard to the events surrounding the second coming.

This is different to the war involving Rev 20 when it seems that all the inhabitants of the earth gather against the city, there are no survivors on earth, all are cast into the lake of fire, there is a new earth.

wpm
Dec 3rd 2008, 07:09 AM
Did you read Genesis 7? It is not me who "extended" the days of God's wrath during the time of Noah. Scripture does. Here, take a look.

And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. Genesis 7;10-12

As scripture clearly states, the days of the wrath of the Lord during the time of Noah was fourty days. BUt that's not all, the actual time extended more than 100 days, as 7:24 clearly state. This is not Premil metling, this is scripture talking.



In my opinion, this is a completely moot point. It matters nothing how long it rained and how long the waters were on the earth. The issue at stake is how the wicked were destroyed on the day the ark door was closed. Nowhere does it say it took 40 days to destroy the wicked. Again, you need to import that into the text.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

This couldn't be clearer. I don't see how I could have made it clearer myself. After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then explains of a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed. Whilst the Lord presents the rebellion and debauchery that preceded both of these judgments as a sign of how things will exist prior to the day of His all-consummating appearing, the main focus of His teaching relates to the focus and scale of the wrath which did fall on these two solemn days of destruction and how they accurately reflect what will happen at the Second Coming.

Both individually and jointly, they supply us with a stunning insight into the nature of the actual day that Christ’s returns and to the days that precede His glorious Second Coming. In their substance and importance these two Old Testament days are distinct and unique. And whilst the nature of the judgment and geographical extent of both appreciably varies, brought-together, they graphically represent (1) the type of catastrophe coming, and (2) the scale of the destruction at the end. Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.




Conclusion based on assumptions refuted earlier in this post.


Go to the Greek to prove what context and other scripture disproves. I am sorry, but Greek and the meaning of the Greek, especially coming from those who have no other desire but to win at all costs, means nothing to me. We are dealing with Biblical scripture here, and even by using your cherished "using scripture to interpret scripture" contradicts your conclusions.

IN this case, nothing you say can refute all of the scriptures that mentions God's wrath as being fiery while the methods of His vengeance is being anything other than all consuming fire. My latest example is Revelation 19, where in verse 12 the Lord's eyes are ablaze with the Wrath of God, while the instrument of His wrath, as described in verse 15, is the double-edged sword in His mouth.



Please see post above.



Again, using your "scripture to interpret scripture", the phrase "winepress of God's wrath" brings in other verses that are connected to that phrase. First, in chapter 14, where there are two gatherings, one being th saints gathered to the Son of Man, and the other by an angel that gathers the grapes into the winepress of God's wrath. Second, in chapter 16, where we see Satan, who is a fallen "angel", gathering the grapes of wrath together, to challenge the Son of God, and the Lord gathering His people, (verse 15). Verse 16 tells us the place of the winepress of God's wrath, namely Armageddon, the valley of Megiddo. This is not conjecture from Premil myth, but actual scripture detailing what you propose to be figurative.


These are all climactic. He is not coming to rescue the wicked but trample in each of them.



WRONG, YET, AGAIN!

1. The grapes of the Lord's wrath, those mentioned in Revelation 19, so not survive. These are the very same as those who are called Magog in Ezekiel 38-39. None of them survive.

2. Zechariah 14 mentions the people who did not participate in the Battle at Megiddo. You see examples of peoples and nations at war even today, and yet, even though the nations are at war, not all of the citizens of that nation are participating. This is a simple concept that those without agendas can understand.


There is no battle mentioned at Megiddo. Where do you get this? They simply meet there. Revelation 16:15-16 confirms: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."



Premils do not ignore Joel 3. You ignore what Zechariah 14:18-19 brings to Joel 3. For instance, Joel 3 states that Egypt will become a desolation, while Zechariah 14 shows us what they will do to make this desolation happen. They do not clash, but complement each other. Both happen during the time when the Lord rules over all of the earth, which happens AFTER He makes His grand return to the earth, a point that Amils miss somehow.

Amils would hold that as another conflict in the Premil "proof-texts." Egypt like every other wicked nation is wiped at Christ's return. It is wrong to usher them unto the new earth.




How many more times do I have to show that I am not the one rewarding anyone, but rather, the Lord is giving mercy to whom He gives mercy to, as shown in Matthew 25:31-46, which again happens AFTER the Lord returns, which again proves that the Lord does not completely destroy the World at His return. In fact, Jesus doesn't destroy the world at all. God the Father does. This is the point that you miss in 2 Peter 3, and Revelation 20:10.


Jesus shows His appearing to be the concluding day of time in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46. Again, He only recognises 2 peoples saved and lost. Your paradigm is rebutted by this text to,saying,“When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and(1) he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but(2)the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

Before analysing this familiar passage, a straight, yet important, question must be asked in relation to this familiar parable: Are the sheep (who all agree are the righteous) and the goats (who all agree are the wicked) standing before the same throne at the same time or are they standing before two different thrones separated by 1,000 years? The answer is very simple to the unbiased / un-indoctrinated mind: the same throne at the same time. Furthermore, when does this all-encompassing event occur? Again, to those who view this passage in the straightforward manner that it is described, they can only have one answer: “When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him.” It is at this climactic stage that all will finally see Christ resplendently “sit upon the throne of his glory” in judgment. It is now that He will judge the nations.

The Lord encounters only types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. Premils invent a third group in order to populate a supposed future millennium after the Coming of the Lord. They say they are a company of mortals too wicked to be sheep (and be raptured) but also too good to be goats. However, Scripture knows nothing of such half-breeds.


The New earth does not happen until the old earth and the old system is completely destroyed, and that does not happen until the last enemy of God is destroyed, which is Death itself. Revelation 20 clearly explains this, while your explanations only give credence to confusion. The Earth is not New as in Revelation 21 new. The Millennium happens on this earth, although according to chapter 16, this earth will be seriously altered, it is still this earth. The New Earth, the earth that will house New Jerusalem, will not come into being until ALL evil is removed from existence. this is why it is not even mentioned until after the Lord judges all mankind in chapter 20:11-15. Therefore, the millennium can house people who were considered "the heathen" while not being sent to the bitterness of the Lake, hence buffering my stance on Matthew 25:31-46.

I thought you applied Isa 65 to your millenial earth?



Well, 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 refutes your idea, since according to verse 23 alone, the end comes AFTER the Lord's return, with verse 25 stating that the Lord must reign until the last enemy is defeated, with vberse 26 mentioning the name of that last enemy being death itself. One thing that amils get confused is the fact that this form of death is not just the death that He gives the believers victory over at His return, but death over all of humanity. That enemy has to be defeated first, and then the Lord will hand over the earth to the Father, as mentioned in verse 24. Again, this is not premil imaginings, but scripture readings, as per the context of the passages without the need for altering or interpreting.


If it was final at His return, then explain Revelation 20:7-10, which happens 1000 years after the Lord returns and gives the tribulation saints total victory over death and all of it's forms.



First, you again avoid Romans 8:19-23. 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 perfectly correlates with Romans 8 showing the Coming of Christ is the end. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then (or) eita (or thereupon)cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down (or) katargeésee (or abolished) all rule and all authority and power.”

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” This all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

third hero
Dec 3rd 2008, 07:28 AM
First, I am not going to get into your chides and insults - that is for others to censure. Again, this does not do you or your argument any favours.

Are you calling me immature? Is this the prattle that I must alway endure from you whenever you can not hold your arguments up with scripture? Is this how you intend to win debates?

Like I have said, these questionable tactics are sickening me, and really, the only reason why I am continuing with the debate in this thread, even though Durbandude has already told you that the only place this debate is going is circular, is so that you can not say that you "won" this debate. IF this is what you call immaturity, then point in the mirror as well. As staunch as you are with your beliefs, so am I with mine. The difference, method of interpretation. You rely on amil proselyzers while I rely on Sola Scriptura. This difference is night and day, something that this debate in particular is highlighting.

This debate is going nowhere, and yet, you continue on. Calling me immature? Accusing me of insults? Really? I find that your pattern is to do such things when you are not getting your way during a debate, and this is something that truly must be addressed.

My answer to this accusation? Stop being judgmental, and things which are not intended to be insults would be seen as the comparisons that they are. I have resolved myself to not allow anyone to control the debate to the point that triggering my anger, and cause the infractions to come as a result. So even the sly tactics that you use no longer affect me, as I am showing here today. This is my first point.


Second, you create groups and sub-groups within the wicked and righteous in order to facilitate the mass re-population of the wicked into the Premil millennium. Amils strongly reject this. They believe there are only 2 peoples on this earth - as there has always been - saved and lost. When Jesus comes the righteous will all be rescued, the wicked will all be destroyed. This is a repeated and clear truth throughout Scripture. In all Christ's teaching He only saw 2 peoples, not 3 or 4 as you submit. His parables are a case-in-point.

Second. I do not create anything. I have shown through scripture that God has decided what He has decided, whether you agree with His decisions or not. You want the Lord to Come, show himself in the air, gather the righteous and then zap the earth to death with the fire from His eyes, something that Revelation 19 and 20 refute. I am not creating any group. It is you that want to maintain that there is a group throughout history known as "the saved" and another group called "the lost", a purely NT concept that started at the Cross, and not before. As Paul correctly stated, none are righteous, no not one. That means that from Adam to Jesus, none was righteous. There were those who were called blameless, which includes Job, Enoch, Noah and David, but none are righteous. Therefore, there is not group of people called the saved before Christ died. I am not categorizing anything, you are.


He described the wicked as goats or tares, the righteous as sheep and wheat. Rev 19 fits into this undoubted and repeated pattern.

SO, the heathen nations that are judged in Matthew 25:31-46 are righteous? I think not. Just like Noah, Lot, Jonah, and many others in the OT were spared, even though they were not righteous, they were considered to be sheep... oh wait, no they weren't. The whole sheep and goats thing was started by Lord Jesus Himself, which makes the whole wheat and tares, sheep and goats thing a purely New Testament concept, which is not to be extended beyond the scope of the New Terstament. Revelation 19 does not fit this pattern, but rather this chapter exemplifies the righteous, and shows thge destruction of the wicked armies at the winepress of God's wrath, which is Megiddo.


The Lord encounters only types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. Premils invent a third group in order to populate a supposed future millennium after the Coming of the Lord. They say they are a company of mortals too wicked to be sheep (and be raptured) but also too good to be goats. However, Scripture knows nothing of such half-breeds.


Again, you evidently did not read any of my posts that show conclusively that your ideology is based on error. It is based on YOUR assumption that there are two groups of people that inhabit the earth, as though the term wicked is to be applied to all of those people who do not acept the Lord Jesus. This is yet another critical error, as your assumptions has created a method of interpreting scripture that the Bible does not support. Hence when you see the term "heathen", you equate to "wicked", something that Zecharia h14:18 and MAtthew 25:31-45 refutes.



In Revelation the Lord describes two people and two marks. We see that both of these two spiritual marks are referred to in generous detail:

God’s Mark – Revelation 3:12, 7:3, 4 (x2), 5 (x3), 6 (x3), 7 (x3), 8 (x3), 9:4, 14:1, 22:4.

This favoured company are found in the heavenly Mount Zion.

Beast's Mark – Revelation 13:16, 14:9, 11, 15:2, 16:2, 19:20, 20:4.

This rebellious company are found shut out of that great heavenly city.

Look at what you do not highlight when you quote Revelation 19. You want to make the Lord's return be the period when the Lord destroys all mankind, when even a portion of the scripture you quote refutes your belief. Take a look at this, the scripture you quote.


God's people are viewed as an army and so are the wicked. Revelation 19:11-19 records Christ’s victorious return as Judge to destroy all wickedness: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

Why did you omit that very important scripture? Maybe because it shows that the world, the people that are on the earth, the "nations" the very same word used in Matthew 25:32 is not only supposed to be smited, but ruled over, as Psalm 2 and Isaiah 7 clearly state, which Zechariah 14 further explains, and what Revelation 20 confirms.


Christ is not coming as Saviour of the world at the end but as its Judge. This is a solemn day for the wicked. Here we see the great final battle of the ages between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. On one side on earth you have the wicked confederacy of the beast’s armies on earth (namely all the wicked) arrayed against the armies of heaven (appearing in the sky) which relates to the people of God that are redeemed.

Jesus is not coming back as the suffering Messiah, that is certain, but to say that the Lord is not coming back as Savior is totally false. He is coming as the Savior.

1. He saves the believers from the wrath of God by bringing them to Himself in th air.

2. He is the Savior of the remnant of Israel, who will return to their land when the Lord comes and restores the Kingdom.

3. He is the savior of mankind, for he will save all humanity, at least all that is left, from the influence of Satan, who will be sealed away after his army is defeated at Megiddo.


There are clearly two opposing armies in view here in this reading: the army of God, led by Christ, and the army of Satan. One is totally victorious; the other one is totally annihilated. This is talking about two kingdoms that are at war - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. This is consistent with repeated Scripture.

The armies of Satan do not encompass the entire world. His armies extend to the armies of the entire world, and not all of the people, another clear mistake that comes from your method in interpretation. The heathen people do not necessarily equate to all of the heathen armies.


These 2 peoples/armies carry one of 2 marks - God's mark or the world's mark of reprobation. This is a book full of symbolism denoting the great battle between light and darkness. There are only two different peoples in this life, they are walking two different roads, in two different directions, to two different destinations. The Christian is bound for heaven; the sinner is bound for hell. One group has the mark of the Father the other the mark of the beast. One is rescued in the marriage of the lamb, the other is destroyed.

This is not a fictional comic book that is only written to enflame the imaginations of mankind. Even though the book is full of symbols, the book itself is not a book of symbolism. This is another error that I have continued to expose throughout not only this thread, but in all of the thread that you and I have debated in for the last 3 years.


Again, this is where is see the achilles heel of Premil. This reveals a notable weakness in the Premil position. Their cry is constantly, 'what saith Rev 20' instead of the correct "what saith Scripture." Everything in Scripture is interpretated in the light of Rev 20. This is unfortunate, not only because it is a mistaken way of biblical hermeneutics, because that the Premil view of Rev in my opinion is gravely flawed.

On the contrary, Revelation 20 is the achilles heel of Amillennialism, because it seriously debunks it, in it's totality. Yes, the premils stand oin Revelation 20, as we stand on every other scripture in the Bible. It is the Amil POV that refuses to acknowledge the content of Revelation 20, and thus instad of acceptence, you use figuration, which is your way of changing the context and the wording of the chapter without coming under the curse of chapter 22. Either way, as a proud member of the Premil group, likened to my brethern, I stand on Revelation 20, and it is unfortunate that you can not simply accept scripture as written. If accepting Revelation 20 is flawed, then I rest in my flaws, because it make a lot more sense than the figurations that you attempt to fuse into it. To me, your take on Revelation 20 is no different than the JW take on John 1:1.


Anyway, 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 reinforces the 2 peoples truth, saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then (or) eita (or thereupon)cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down (or) katargeésee (or abolished) all rule and all authority and power.”

Actually, 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 reinforces the two resurrections, one at His return, and the other at the end, when Death is defeated, which according to Revelation 20, is when the dead are emptied from death, and what is left of death is hurled into the Lake.


Again, Scripture only sees saved and lost - here described as those "in Christ" and those "in Adam." There can me no sub-groups or sub-divisions as you suggest. All the righteous are glorified at the catching away, all the wicked are killed. Moreover, the Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” This all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

Only those who wish to categorize everything into groups see things as you do. The rest of the believers only let scripture define what is what. According to the OT, there were the heathen, who did not acknowledge the God of Israel, the God-fearing who are those who acknowledge God and fear him, (although whether or not they followed the torah is unclear, although they are clearly Gentile), and the blameless who are the practicing Israelites. The New testament brings into focus the idea of the "saved" and "lost". In fact, the first person to even use the term "lost" is Lord Jesus. That term wasn't even attached to any people before the Caananite woman was tested. This is a clear example of letting scripture speak for itself, and not allowing wycliff or anyone else to make that decision for you.


We the Church are soldiers in an army fighting for truth (2 Timothy 2:3-4). The devil's army is the beast's troops - the wicked. You try to make more sub-groups of wicked to sustain the Premil theory and facilitate the swamping of the Premil new earth with the wicked. This to me is an error. This runs against the biblical teaching of only two peoples saved and lost - Christ's or Satan's, heaven or hell. First, there is no mention of Meggiddo or Jerusalem or any local battle here. One would have to import it in.

Is that why Lord Jesus had Peter put down His sword when he struck the ear of that priest at the time of His capture? You misunderstand, and Jesus made this point clear. If His Kingdom is of this world, then 10,000 batallions of angels would've descended to proteect their King. We are not the Lord's soldiers, the angels are. We are the Lord's brethern, who have to survive in this world, although we are not a part of it. Hence in order to protect ourselves, the Lord has given us weapons, all based on faith and obedience.

And in all of this jousting, you have yet to debunk a single point that I have made concerning the survivors of the return of the Lord, and you will be hard pressed to do so, since scripture tells a tale that you can not refute, no matter how much figurating you do.

third hero
Dec 3rd 2008, 07:53 AM
In my opinion, this is a completely moot point. It matters nothing how long it rained and how long the waters were on the earth. The issue at stake is how the wicked were destroyed on the day the ark door was closed. Nowhere does it say it took 40 days to destroy the wicked. Again, you need to import that into the text.

Of course you think this is a moot point, because you can not refute it. It is not a moot point as it confirms that my interpretation of Luke 17 is correct. there is a reason why Luke wrote "days" when he compared Noah's time to the time of the Son of Man. And therefore, on that evidence alone, I have proven that the Lord's return does not equate to the world being destroyed on that one day. There is more than one day of the Son of Man, as Revelation 20 confirms. It is not a moot point, it is a deal-breaker. Amillennialism can not stand against this one truth, and this is only one of many truths that I have and will continue to use to further the cause of proving that Classical Premillennialism is the one true interpretation of the End Times, as scripture completely confirms it. This POV debunks both amillennialism and dispensationalism.


Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

This couldn't be clearer. I don't see how I could have made it clearer myself. After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then explains of a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed. Whilst the Lord presents the rebellion and debauchery that preceded both of these judgments as a sign of how things will exist prior to the day of His all-consummating appearing, the main focus of His teaching relates to the focus and scale of the wrath which did fall on these two solemn days of destruction and how they accurately reflect what will happen at the Second Coming.

Both individually and jointly, they supply us with a stunning insight into the nature of the actual day that Christ’s returns and to the days that precede His glorious Second Coming. In their substance and importance these two Old Testament days are distinct and unique. And whilst the nature of the judgment and geographical extent of both appreciably varies, brought-together, they graphically represent (1) the type of catastrophe coming, and (2) the scale of the destruction at the end. Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.

Another tactic of yours. When you find a dead end, restart, and try to use the same material that has been disproven to prove what has already been successfully refuted. Do I need to comment further on this point?



There is no battle mentioned at Megiddo. Where do you get this? They simply meet there. Revelation 16:15-16 confirms: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."


According to Revelation 14, an angel gathers the grapes into a place together. IN chapter 16, Satan, although a fallen angel still qualifies as an angel, gathers the nations of the world, their kings and their armies, to one spot. The spot that he gathers them to is the place that is the winepress of God's wrath. That place is named as Armageddon. I'm sorry, but figurating is not going to aid in your quest to defeat premillennialism.


Amils would hold that as another conflict in the Premil "proof-texts." Egypt like every other wicked nation is wiped at Christ's return. It is wrong to usher them unto the new earth.

Again, your conclusion is based on the assumption that the battle at Megiddo extends to the rest of the world, when it clearly does not. The death at Megiddo is limited only to Megiddo, as the fowl of the earth will feast on the flesh of the mortals that Satan gathered to fight against Him, at Megiddo. Egypt is not prophesied to be destroyed, but to be left desolate, and that dos not happen until after they disobey the rule that the Lord will set into place as written in Zechariah 14.



Jesus shows His appearing to be the concluding day of time in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46. Again, He only recognises 2 peoples saved and lost. Your paradigm is rebutted by this text to,saying,“When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and(1) he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but(2)the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

Again, "nations" is clearly written in Matthew 25:32, thus making the judgment found in this passage to be given to the heathen of the earth. Until you remove that word from that passage, none of your figurating will make sense, for even in Revelation 7, the righteous are never called the nations, but rather those who have come out of the nations, thus separating the believers from the nations of the world, whom according to Matthew 4, is currently in the posession of the devil.


Before analysing this familiar passage, a straight, yet important, question must be asked in relation to this familiar parable: Are the sheep (who all agree are the righteous) and the goats (who all agree are the wicked) standing before the same throne at the same time or are they standing before two different thrones separated by 1,000 years? The answer is very simple to the unbiased / un-indoctrinated mind: the same throne at the same time. Furthermore, when does this all-encompassing event occur? Again, to those who view this passage in the straightforward manner that it is described, they can only have one answer: “When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him.” It is at this climactic stage that all will finally see Christ resplendently “sit upon the throne of his glory” in judgment. It is now that He will judge the nations.

I am not creating a rift in the timeline as you are trying to do. I am simply saying this. When the Lord establishes His throne in Jerusalem and fulfill every other scripture in both the Ot and the NT concerning the Lord ruling the earth, He will judge the nations, for the righteous are already judged, and are given eternal life BEFORE He establishes his throne in Jerusalem. You err because you are injecting your POV into the scripture, insted of allowing the scripture to project itself. This is yet another error that "interpretors" do all of the time.


The Lord encounters only types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. Premils invent a third group in order to populate a supposed future millennium after the Coming of the Lord. They say they are a company of mortals too wicked to be sheep (and be raptured) but also too good to be goats. However, Scripture knows nothing of such half-breeds.

The only people left on the earth that are judged after the Lord establishes His Kingdom here on this earth are the heathen. The God-fearing are given mercy, for they will be the ones who will visit the Believers in prison during the Great Tribulation, they will be the ones who will aid the believers in surviving the greatest period of human suffering ever. They will be the ones whom the Lord will grant mercy to. The rest are hurled int othe Lake. The Lord will create the groups, and no one else.


I thought you applied Isa 65 to your millenial earth?

I do, and there are even more scriptures in Isaiah, Psalms, 2 Samuel, and many other places in the OT that I do not feel compelled to include. Just because I did not include them does not mean that I have rejected them.


First, you again avoid Romans 8:19-23. 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 perfectly correlates with Romans 8 showing the Coming of Christ is the end. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then (or) eita (or thereupon)cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down (or) katargeésee (or abolished) all rule and all authority and power.”

Romans 8 has no bearing on 1 Corinthians 15. Last time I checked, Romans 8 was a part of the series of chapters that are meant to show how the Gentiles are in the same group as believing Jews, which has no bearing on the topic at hand.


The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” This all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

And still, 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 show a series of events that lead up to the destruction of the world, which starts at the return of the Lord.

wpm
Dec 3rd 2008, 04:16 PM
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Are you calling me immature? Is this the prattle that I must alway endure from you whenever you can not hold your arguments up with scripture? Is this how you intend to win debates?

Like I have said, these questionable tactics are sickening me, and really, the only reason why I am continuing with the debate in this thread, even though Durbandude has already told you that the only place this debate is going is circular, is so that you can not say that you "won" this debate. IF this is what you call immaturity, then point in the mirror as well. As staunch as you are with your beliefs, so am I with mine. The difference, method of interpretation. You rely on amil proselyzers while I rely on Sola Scriptura. This difference is night and day, something that this debate in particular is highlighting.

This debate is going nowhere, and yet, you continue on. Calling me immature? Accusing me of insults? Really? I find that your pattern is to do such things when you are not getting your way during a debate, and this is something that truly must be addressed.

My answer to this accusation? Stop being judgmental, and things which are not intended to be insults would be seen as the comparisons that they are. I have resolved myself to not allow anyone to control the debate to the point that triggering my anger, and cause the infractions to come as a result. So even the sly tactics that you use no longer affect me, as I am showing here today. This is my first point.

I have no interest in winning the debate, if that is what you want you can have it. You need to remember we are brethren not enemies. I am not trying to offend you. I simply disagree with many of your end-time views. Notwithstanding, I'm sure there is much that we agree on re end-times. As far as the other fundamentals probably a lot more.

John146
Dec 3rd 2008, 04:57 PM
I'll give it a shot

Luke 17:26-30:
I really don't see where you are getting total destruction of the wicked from this text so I might have trouble answering before you clarify. I understand that all wicked on earth were destroyed by the flood, but the destruction at Sodom and Gomorrah was a localized event leaving plenty of wicked elsewhere on the Earth? Likewise the fiery destruction against the Beast and his armies at Armageddon is also localized.

Remember the "wheat and tares" parable? The wicked are gathered into bundles on the field [earth] and burned, the field is not burned, the bundles on the field are burned leaving scorched places on the field but a relatively unburned field [earth]. The "wheat" has already been gathered into the barn at the Second Coming, so if it was the intention of the Lord to destroy all wicked he could simply burn the whole field instead of just the bundles. This does not happen regardless of what 2 Peter 3:10 in your bible says;)

The gist of this text IMO is that the destruction comes on those leading wicked lives unexpectedly or without warning as it did in S&G. Of course those in Noah's day were well warned, but did not believe it was coming, so they were also surprised.

Besides this, if you keep reading past vs. 30, to vs. 31-37, you will see that on this very day of destruction at least half of the people are not killed.

Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

If you'll notice in vs. 37 the disciples ask the Lord where these people are "taken" and his answer is they are killed. So I think that you have a strong case here for half of the wicked being killed, that's about it though.Nice try, but your view doesn't hold water. When one is taken and the other left it is speaking of the contrasting fates of believers and unbelievers. For some reason, you see both as being wicked, but that is simply not the case. When the Lord comes, believers will be changed and caught up to meet Him in the air and unbelievers will be destroyed.


Peter 3:10-12:

Okay, this is the granddaddy of them all and I would say that you have an ironclad case to hang your doctrine on based on this text, if this text was correct as written. It is not. 3:10 as it appears in your bible, and every bible based on the "textus receptus" texts is miscopied, and is not what Peter originally wrote.Oh, brother. Here we go.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

All modern scholars agree that "shall be burned up" or katakaio is a replacement by later copyist for the original "discovered" or heurisko. So this drastically changes the meaning of the verse. So on the "day of the Lord", when he comes as a thief, the earth is not burned up katakaio, it is heurisko.

G2147. heurisko hyoo-ris'-ko, a prolonged form of a primary heuro hyoo'-ro, which (together with another cognate form) heureo hyoo-reh'-o is used for it in all the tenses except the present and imperfect to find (literally or figuratively):--find, get, obtain, perceive, see.

Now as for the earth burning up, being utterly destroyed as it appears to be in vs. 3:12,I agree with you 100% that it does just like Rev 21:1 says it does. The trouble is that Rev 20 puts the chronology of this event 1000 years after the "day of the Lord".I'm not buying what you're selling. The earth has to be literally burned up because there is going to be a new earth.


2 Thess 1:7-10:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The Lord does indeed take vengeance with fire at his coming, and they are certainly cast into the "lake of fire" at that time. And we are told exactly who also, with a little searching.

The Beast and False prophet:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

His armies:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Now I don't disagree that All that have the "mark of the beast" are cast into the "lake of fire", just not at the time of the second coming, later at "sheep and goats".What do you mean "later at sheep and goats"? The sheep and goats judgment occurs at the second coming of Christ.

Matt 25
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


At the time of the second coming there are two things that happen against these particular wicked mentioned in
2 Thess 1:7-10. Christ takes "vengeance with fire" and he "cast them into the lake of fire". These "two" punishments limit the wicked that are directly effected at the SC to the "armies of the Beast" at Armageddon, this does not contradict the text of 2 Thess 1:7-10, and it is not to say that the rest with "the mark of the Beast" don't get what's coming to them soon after....

Rev 19:15-21:
Well for starters in Rev 19 we are told that the Lord "smites" the nations then "rules them with a rod of iron", it really wouldn't stand to reason that everyone from these "nations" were killed otherwise he'd have no one to rule over....

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

And next, we are told exactly who is defeated on that day (Armageddon):

1)The Beast
2)The False Prophet
3)their armies

How you get that this is every wicked person on Earth I don't understand.....Does the Beast have everyone on Earth in his army.....even babies LOLTake a closer look.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This says He is going to destroy "all men, both free and bond, both small and great". This is not just limited to the beast, false prophet and their armies, as you claim.


And on another note, in Daniel we are told that on this day when the Beast is defeated and cast into the Lake of Fire the other "beasts" (which are also wicked and are assembled against Israel at the battleground of the valley of Jehosophat) are not killed but allowed to live a specified amount of time, "a season and a time". In keeping with the Daniel timekeeping method of a "time" equaling one year (ex. time, times, and halving of time = 3 1/2 yrs) this would mean that the "other beasts" are allowed to live for more than a year after the battle at Armageddon... how do you reconcile this with all wicked being destroyed on that day?

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.I believe Daniel 7:12 is just a parenthetical note regarding what happened to the other beasts and is not suggesting that they were allowed to continue on after the day of judgment. The day of judgment comes after the thousand years, not before. The only thing that follows the judgment is eternity for believers on the new earth and unbelievers will be in the lake of fire.

John146
Dec 3rd 2008, 05:01 PM
john146,

I have never seen any conflict there. The two chapters support eachother in many ways.

I have never even implied that there will be survivors from the beast's army, because even in the opening post you can see that I categorically state that I believe this army will be destroyed. I think that the reason you are battling to understand this is your assumption that the war in Rev 19 and the war in Rev 20 are the same war, involving all the inhabitants of earth. Pre-mills obviously separate these wars. The Rev 19 war involves the nations just as WW2 involved most nations on earth. Many nations were involved as allies in Europe during WW2 , but this does not imply that their entire populations were in Europe.

Rev 19:17-21 is specifically about a war; and clearly indicates that there is complete destruction of the armies , all men , both free and slave are destroyed. Some say that the phrase "all men" means all on the face of the earth, but this would contradict other verses and doesn't make sense in the context it was written, the context was a specific war. For example if I am describing a war, let's say the Battle of Isandlwana and state that the Zulu's were victorious and "every man was destroyed", there is no assumption that this means every briton was destroyed throughout earth.

Yet earlier in Rev 19:15 the bible states that at the second coming He will "smite the nations" and "He shall rule them with a rod of iron"

The very nations that Jesus strikes, are the nations to be ruled over. The "rod of iron" indicates a rule of discipline. We reign with Christ, so I doubt this is in any way referring to surviving resurrected saints. You stated that this rule could be referring to the nations' destruction, but the words "shall rule" implying a later event show that this ruling happens after the striking of the nations. Also we all know what the word "rule" means.

Taking this all into account Rev 19 is referring to total destruction of the attacking armies at the second coming, and then He rules the nations with a rod of iron.

Zechariah 14 describes the same situation, the destruction of the armies in Zech 14:12
Zechariah 14 describes the same situation: the survival of the nations under a rule of discipline:
14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain

In this way I believe both Rev 19 and Zechariah 14 strongly support eachother with regard to the events surrounding the second coming.

This is different to the war involving Rev 20 when it seems that all the inhabitants of the earth gather against the city, there are no survivors on earth, all are cast into the lake of fire, there is a new earth.I believe you are not accepting what Rev 19:18 tells us.

Rev 19
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

John146
Dec 3rd 2008, 05:03 PM
The bible tells us that when the Lord comes all the wicked will be destroyed. We are shown this by the two pictures painted for us in Matthew 24:36-38 and Luke 17:27-29. The ark was finished and God said to Noah come into the ark, Noah entered the ark with His family and all were saved from the flood that came upon the whole world.

Lot and his family lived in Sodom and the wicked cries of Sodom went up to God in heaven, so God decided to destroy Sodom for the evil that was in it. Yes it was a localized destruction because that is what God had planned. Lot and his family were dragged out of Sodom and then Sodom was destroyed.
The picture we have in both of these books is that God will save the righteous and the wicked will be destroyed, this is what Matthew and Luke are saying. God will destroy the wicked leaving the righteous to go into the millennial kingdom.

Matthew 24:36-38
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

Luke 17:27-29
27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

In all the verses below we have a picture of the wicked been taken and the righteous being left behind

Matthew 24:39-42
39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 2 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

Luke 17:33-35
33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”7And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Psalm 37:9-11
9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the LORD,
They shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. One problem. The righteous will be changed and will have immortal bodies when Christ returns. This doesn't leave any mortals to populate this supposed earthly millennial kingdom.

forum lurker
Dec 3rd 2008, 05:24 PM
I think that is because there are none.

I think so too.


Of course, I'm sure you agree that is nothing more than speculation. If someone could actually show me scripture that tells us who exactly these survivors are and what it is about them that allows them to survive while the rest do not, then I'm willing to consider those. At the same time, it would be helpful if someone could explain how and why passages like Luke 17:26-30, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Rev 19:15-21 do not teach that all unbelievers will be destroyed when Christ returns.

Anyway, welcome to the forum. I noticed that this was only your second post.

Thanks for the welcome! Yes, what I wrote was only speculation. But At least Luke 17 does in fact leave room for unbelievers:


28"It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

If we look at Genesis 19:


12 The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it." 14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=19&version=31#fen-NIV-472a)] his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.


It seems to me that Lot had permission to save his relatives regardless of their religious stance. Everyone was not divided into sheep and goats.

wpm
Dec 3rd 2008, 06:14 PM
I think so too.

Thanks for the welcome! Yes, what I wrote was only speculation. But At least Luke 17 does in fact leave room for unbelievers:

If we look at Genesis 19:

It seems to me that Lot had permission to save his relatives regardless of their religious stance. Everyone was not divided into sheep and goats.

Whilst the man of God under the leading of the Holy Spirit makes an appeal to the crowd, it is only the elect that truly hear and respond. This demonstrates a reality that continues throughout the scene of time: procrastination or hesitancy is always fatal to the soul.

Jesus actually says, in Matthew 22:14, "For many are called, but few are chosen."

third hero
Dec 3rd 2008, 06:23 PM
I believe you are not accepting what Rev 19:18 tells us.

Rev 19
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

It seems as though the one who is having difficulty with Revelation 19 is yourself. IN verse 15, the Lord is to both Smite and rule over the nations. On top of that, the sword in His mouth, as identified in the very same verse, destroys all who are "at the winepress of God's wrath", which is the place where an angel gathers the grapes at, which in chapter 16:16 is identified as Armageddon, the Valley of Megiddo. And so you see, all men whyo are at the winepress of God's wrath are destroyed, but not all of mankind throughout the world, as the battle at Armageddon is t he place where kings and slaves alike are mercilessly destroyed, with not one survivor.

Reading Revelation 19:18 without taking into account both the verses before it and the chapters before it often result in errors like the one you have committed, john146.

forum lurker
Dec 3rd 2008, 07:03 PM
Whilst the man of God under the leading of the Holy Spirit makes an appeal to the crowd, it is only the elect that truly hear and respond. This demonstrates a reality that continues throughout the scene of time: procrastination or hesitancy is always fatal to the soul.

Jesus actually says, in Matthew 22:14, "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Lot was the only one righteous one, but his daughters were also saved.

Luke 17:


26"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28"It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

If the days of Lot are similar to what the days of the Son of Man will be, then believers will be able to warn at least their relatives (family members). Do you think every one of those people, hundreds of millions them, will think they are only joking? I don't think that's very likely.

John146
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:03 PM
Actually, it does. You want to make Matthew 25:31-46 to mean that the Lord is judging His people, but the truth of the matter is that the Lord is judging the nations, which have always meant in both the OT and the NT as the heathen nations. You want the term "nations" to mean one thing in one phrase in the Bible where it doesn't mean that in any other verse in the entire Bible. Hopefully, this will clear up the clouds in your memory.Tell me how heathen nations could possibly inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34) and receive "life eternal" (Matt 25:46)? The sheep and goats are individuals. We have to keep in mind what scripture teaches as a whole regarding the day of judgment when we read Matthew 25:31-46. Entire nations are not ever going to be given eternal sentences. That doesn't correspond with any other scripture. Instead, we repeatedly see that individuals will receive eternal rewards or punishment on that day.


1. The term used in Zechariah 14:5 is "saints". These are not angels, or "holy ones" as you claim. They are saints, and the saints are the people of Lord Jesus, the church. The word that the KJV translated as "saints" is the Hebrew word qadowsh (Strong's H6918). Here are all the possible meanings:

1) sacred, holy, Holy One, saint, set apart

Here is Young's Literal Translation:

5And ye have fled [to] the valley of My mountains, For join doth the valley of the mountains to Azal, And ye have fled as ye fled before the shaking, In the days of Uzziah king of Judah, And come in hath Jehovah my God, All holy ones [are] with Thee.

It does not have to refer to saints. It's a matter of interpretation. But, again, this is not referring to Jesus here, but to the Father.


2. When the scripture says, "then the Lord my God will come, and all of His saints with thee", that says to me, the Lord returns, not the Lord allows the Temple to be destroyed. Context prevents me from making any of the presupppositions that you propose.

3. Zechariah 14:18 lines up with Matthew 25:32, for the Lord judges the "nations", and the "heathen" must adhere to those judgments in Zechariah 14:18.You seem to not see that the judgments handed out in Matthew 25:31-46 are eternal. Eternal judgment is reserved for individuals, not nations.



1. Revelation 20 is the most debated scripture, because that chapter takes no prisoners.

2. Zechariah 14 is the OT evidence of the things mentioned in Revelation 20:1-7, along with Daniel 7.

3. the reason why it is debated among the amils is because these chapters disprove your positions, and thus, likened to the Jw's you have to figure out a way to debunk them, something that premils like me make it increasingly difficult.You are comparing amils to JW's? I see you still are not able to debate without throwing insults around. I'm starting to wonder if you will never grow up.


4. The judgments in Matthew 25:31-46 entend throughout the time period of the Lord's kingdom on this earth, and not the one on the next. Show me that within the passage itself. I don't see that at all.


The New Earth, as mentioned in Revelation 21, does not have sin, or sinners, on the face of it, for it is the place where God will finally live amongst men, and God can not reside in a place where sin abides. This is why the Lord judges all mankind in Revelation 20:11-15, before the New heaven and New Earth comes into existence.Jesus is coming to remove the wicked and all wickedness from the earth. He returns at the end of the age and this is what happens at that time:

Matt 13
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


What was this earth originally made for, if it is not made for men to inhabit with the Lord ruling over it directly?That's what will happen on the new earth. He will rule over His people. Everyone else will be cast into the lake of fire.


This is why God walked in Eden when Adam and Eve walked the earth. This is why Eden had to be removed from the earth when sin was found in Adam and Eve. This world was not made for sin to infect. This earth was made for mankind to live under the direct rule of God, and He will make that happen, when the Lord, God's Son, comes to this earth to extinguish the evil in the midst of it, and give the people who are left a taste of what the earth was suppose to be like during Adam and Eve's time. He is going to remove the wicked and wickedness entirely, as we can see from that passage I quoted from Matthew 13 along with passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12.


Matthew 25:46 sums up the entire chapter, which includes the parable of the ten virgins, which deal with the righteous, and the judgment of the wicked, which are sent into everlasting destruction. Matthew 25:46 speaks of everlasting punishment and everlasting life. How can you associate those things with heathen nations?


I am not "way off" at all. You neglect the simple word that changes everything in reference to whom the Lord is Judging. Like it or not, the term "nations" appear in verse 32. Yes, it does. But what you are missing is that people from all nations will be taken and separated into two groups. It's not referring to sheep and goat nations. Entire nations are not given eternal sentences. The sheep are individual believers and the goats are individual unbelievers. It's no different than the wheat and tares where the wheat are believers and the tares are unbelievers.


Moreover, you neglect to see what the Lord uses to judge the nations, and that judgment is dependent on how the people treated HIS BRETHERN, the church.No, it's about how people treated the least of His brethren, which we can see from the context are the poor and needy: those who are sick, in prison, hungry, thirsty, and so on.


And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me. Matthew 25:40

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. Matthew 25:45

Who are the "these" in verse 45? The "my brethern" in verse 40. Who are the King's brethern? Those who obey the Will of His Father, as mentioned in Matthew 12:50.Exactly, but this does not mean that the sheep are not His brethren. He commends the sheep for how they treated the least of these. How can you think that He would commend heathen nations for their treatment of the least of these? No, He is speaking to individuals. Do entire nations go to visit those who are sick or in prison?


No, that is what Revelation 20 states. Revelation 20 mentions 2 resurrections, one of the Tribulation saints, and the other being the rest of humanity. I didn't read into chapter 20. You do not include the reading of Revelation 20 into your paradigm, which is a mistake.Yes, I do, and you know it. I have explained my view of that chapter many times. If it is referring to a physical resurrection of only the tribulation saints, then what about the rest of believers? Scripture like 1 Cor 15:50-54 and John 5:28-29 indicates that all believers will be resurrected at the same time. Also, what about all the scripture that says Christ is the first resurrection? Should we just ignore those?

1 Cor 15
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

What about the scripture that says all people will be resurrected at the same time? Should we ignore those as well?

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Death is defeated against the believers at His return. Death is finally defeated when Jesus goes to judge all of mankind, as mentioned in Revelation 20:14 and 1 Corinthians 15:26. The "gap" which is clearly explained in BOTH 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 and Revelation 20:4-15 is at least 1000 years.There is no gap. Death is defeated when He returns. No one will die after He returns.


Who is freed from the grip of death at the Lord's return? The believers. Is death defeated in totality?Yes


According to the same author in the same chapter just a few verses earlier, at the end, when heaven and earth are given back to the Father, after Lord Jesus reigns until the last foe, Death, is defeated. Now, it is up to you to determine how Death is swallowed up when the believers recieve their incorruptible bodies and not defeated until after Christ reigns over this earth.If it's swallowed up in victory, it's defeated.


To me, I do not have to worry about such prattle, since Paul mentions in verse 23-26 what John reinforces in chapter 20:10-14. Therefore, upon the testimony of two or more witnesses, such a thing is established.Your rhetoric aside, we need to look at the context of 1 Cor 15:54.

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

What prophecy is this referring to? This one:

Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

This prophecy is also quoted in another place. Take a look:

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Notice the similarity between Isaiah 25:8 and Rev 21:4. When is death swallowed up in victory according to Isaiah 25:8? At the same time that "the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces"? When does that happen? According to Rev 21:1-4, it happens when the new heavens and new earth appear. At that time, there is no more death. These scriptures all line up with each other and indicate that the time when death is swallowed up in victory and defeated is the same time when God will wipe away all the tears from our eyes. This happens at the last trumpet, when Christ returns, the resurrection occurs and the judgment takes place. These scriptures place His coming, the resurrection of the dead, the judgment and the appearing of the new heavens and new earth at the same general time with no thousand year gap to be found within there.


Now the burden of proof is to you. Prove that 1 Corinthians 15 is all about who is allowed to enter the Kingdom fo Christ, and prove where not one of the remnant of the nations are being ruled by Christ.I think the burden is actually on you to show how and why mortal flesh and blood will be allowed to inherit the kingdom of God at the last trumpet. You do believe the kingdom mentioned in 1 Cor 15:50 is the millennial kingdom, right?


Sorry, but the entire chapter is concerning the Lord's victory over death, which is exhaustively explained throughout the entire chapter. this includes both the Return, and the end of the earth, which occurs AFTER the Millennium of Peace, at the end of days, after Satan, Gog and Magog is finally and completely defeated, with no survivors in the world, let alone in Megiddo.Did you just acknowledge that His return occurs after the millennium or did you just make a mistake? ;)


Again, verses 2-4 explains that the earth is reserved for destruction by means of fire, and the coming is that of it's destruction, hecne the scoffers. The scoffers are not denying the existence of God, but rather, are scoffing at the fact that the earth is devoted to destruction by fire, which happens at the end of that chapter. This has nothing to do with Lord Jesus's return. The term coming is not exclusive to the return of the Lord.

One thing I find funny though, you are easy to say that the term "coming" refers to the Lord's return, but you utterly deny it when Zechariah 14:5b clearly mentions the Lord's coming with His saints, something that you do not find in 2 Peter 3. So you only pick and choose only those definitions that suit your causes, and deny those that run counter to your POV? Again, another mistake, one that I can not help but point out. Consistency is an issue with the Amil POV, and this is yet another reason why I could never accept it. It has more leaps in iit's logic than dispensationalism, another POV that I can not help but to reject.I can say the same to you. You choose to see Zechariah 14 as referring to the second coming of Christ, but you don't see 2 Peter 3 as referring to the second coming. So, I could say you pick and choose at your convenience as well.

But, despite your claim, that's not how I base my interpretations. We have to reconcile those two passages rather than adhere to one while changing the meaning of the other. It's all about context. We can go to 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 and 2 Thess 2:1-2 to see that the day of the Lord is directly related to the second coming of Christ. That's how I know that the scoffers are asking where is the promise of the coming of Christ. Zechariah 14, on the other hand, is speaking of "a day for Jehovah" and relates to what happened in Jerusalem in 70 AD and not to the future day of the Lord when Christ returns.

If 2 Peter 3 is not referring to the second coming of Christ but to a future coming of the Father then where is the scripture that prophesies about that? And, since you believe 2 Peter 3 occurs after the millennium, is that how you see 1 Thess 5:1-6 as well?

Also, I notice that you didn't respond when I pointed out your error in trying to say that Lot represents the wicked when Jesus compares His coming to the days of Lot. Are you willing to acknowledge your error that is proven wrong by the following passage?

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

third hero says: Lot represented the wicked.

scripture says: Lot represented the righteous.

You may want to reconsider your understanding of Luke 17:26-30.

28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

In Noah's day and Lot's day all the wicked were killed. No exceptions. Only the righteous survived. As Jesus said, "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.".

John146
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:09 PM
It seems as though the one who is having difficulty with Revelation 19 is yourself. IN verse 15, the Lord is to both Smite and rule over the nations. On top of that, the sword in His mouth, as identified in the very same verse, destroys all who are "at the winepress of God's wrath", which is the place where an angel gathers the grapes at, which in chapter 16:16 is identified as Armageddon, the Valley of Megiddo. And so you see, all men whyo are at the winepress of God's wrath are destroyed, but not all of mankind throughout the world, as the battle at Armageddon is t he place where kings and slaves alike are mercilessly destroyed, with not one survivor.

Reading Revelation 19:18 without taking into account both the verses before it and the chapters before it often result in errors like the one you have committed, john146.Reading Revelation 19:18 without taking scripture as a whole into account is your mistake. Your view contradicts passages like Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

John146
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:11 PM
Thanks for the welcome! Yes, what I wrote was only speculation. But At least Luke 17 does in fact leave room for unbelievers:

If we look at Genesis 19:

It seems to me that Lot had permission to save his relatives regardless of their religious stance. Everyone was not divided into sheep and goats.I totally disagree. His daughters were the only ones that were also believers. It took faith to believe what he was telling them about what was going to happen. His other relatives just assumed he must be joking because they didn't have any fear of God or faith in God. If his daughters weren't true believers then they would have looked back like Lot's wife and would have turned into pillars of salt like she did.

wpm
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:21 PM
Lot was the only one righteous one, but his daughters were also saved.


The Bible doesn't say that.

third hero
Dec 4th 2008, 04:54 AM
Reading Revelation 19:18 without taking scripture as a whole into account is your mistake. Your view contradicts passages like Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:10-12.
Just because you say so does not make it so. I have shown through scripture how you have misinterpreted scripture after scripture, including all of the ones that you continue to accuse me of contradicting. I have in several previous posts in this thread refuting your bogus charges. Now, why not show your evidence and refute what I have written on page 10, when you first wrote this same accusation.

And by the way, I was not throwing insults, I was making comparisons. I grew up as a Jw, and they figurate away John 1:1, so that the Lord Jesus is not God, but rather the archangel Michael. Like them, you amils figurate scripture that does not agree with your doctrine. That is not an insult; it is an observation. Otherwise, you would not attempt to figurate Revelation 20, especially verses 4-6.

third hero
Dec 4th 2008, 05:17 AM
Tell me how heathen nations could possibly inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34) and receive "life eternal" (Matt 25:46)? The sheep and goats are individuals. We have to keep in mind what scripture teaches as a whole regarding the day of judgment when we read Matthew 25:31-46. Entire nations are not ever going to be given eternal sentences. That doesn't correspond with any other scripture. Instead, we repeatedly see that individuals will receive eternal rewards or punishment on that day.

Your argument is not with me, but with Matthew 35:32 and Zechariah 14:18. I didn't write those words there, te authors inspired by God did.


The word that the KJV translated as "saints" is the Hebrew word qadowsh (Strong's H6918). Here are all the possible meanings:

1) sacred, holy, Holy One, saint, set apart

Here is Young's Literal Translation:

5And ye have fled [to] the valley of My mountains, For join doth the valley of the mountains to Azal, And ye have fled as ye fled before the shaking, In the days of Uzziah king of Judah, And come in hath Jehovah my God, All holy ones [are] with Thee.

It does not have to refer to saints. It's a matter of interpretation. But, again, this is not referring to Jesus here, but to the Father.

The picking and choosing again. How is the Lord my God coming in Zechariah the Father, and the same line in 2 Peter 3 be the Son? Are you saying that the Father is going to come to the earth, and require all men to come to Jerusalem yearly to worship Him? If we did not have Revelation 19 to read, you would be right. However, we KNOW that this coming is the coming of the Son.


You seem to not see that the judgments handed out in Matthew 25:31-46 are eternal. Eternal judgment is reserved for individuals, not nations.

I do not see anything here that screams out, "this is an eternal judgment". I do see the nations being separated, and I can also see how you could draw the conclusion that Lord Jesus is separating the righteous from the sinners. However, the judgment of the nations as written in 25 is based on the people's treatment of the Believers, and that is why I see this as the judgment after Megiddo, and not the Last Day Judgment.


You are comparing amils to JW's? I see you still are not able to debate without throwing insults around. I'm starting to wonder if you will never grow up.

Calling me immature, just because I have shown a similarity between amil doctrine and JW doctrine? Seriously? You amils are the onesd that can not accept the phrase, "and the rest of the dead are not raised until the 1000 years are completed". How is that different than the Jw's refusal to accept John 1:1? There isn't. That is not me throwing insults. This is an observer making observations.



Jesus is coming to remove the wicked and all wickedness from the earth. He returns at the end of the age and this is what happens at that time:

Matt 13
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So what is it? Matthew 24:29-31 clearly states that the Lord is going to remove the believers from the earth immediately after the Tribulation of that time. Yet you want to show Matthew 13 as evidence of the Lord destroying the earth at His coming, and the ones removed are the wicked. There appears to be a contradiction... but there isn't, and here's why.

1. The second coming of Christ is not the end of the world. It is only the end of an age. (the age of Satan).

2. Matthew 13:40 makes the tares comparison and says that "so shall it be in the end of this world." According to Revelation 20, that happens after the 1000 years end, and Satan is released from his prison.

Therefore:

3. The example that you use does not fit the timeline set in the Bible, whiich includes all of the events that are to happen in both the OT and NT.


That is what will happen on the new earth. He will rule over His people. Everyone else will be cast into the lake of fire.

I would agree, except this ruling over the new earth happens after all of the events that are suppose to happen on this earth are completed, including the chaining and sealing of Satan, the Son's direct rule over this planet, with His capital being Jerusalem, and the release of Satan, the rebellion, and their sudden and swift destruction.


Everything else from this point on is going to be round robin and de ja vu. You and I are goingto go around in circles saying the same things and continuing to disagree with eachb other. So there really isn't any more to say.

forum lurker
Dec 4th 2008, 08:11 AM
The Bible doesn't say that.

No, but it says the angles came to visit Lot, and Lot only. Not Lot and his daughters.

Now let me ask a question: Was Lot's wife righteous? If not, why did the angles ask Lot to take her with him?

modanufu
Dec 4th 2008, 09:44 AM
Hi DurbanDude,


I think that the reason you are battling to understand this is your assumption that the war in Rev 19 and the war in Rev 20 are the same war, involving all the inhabitants of earth. Pre-mills obviously separate these wars.

May I add a point that seems to plead for identify of the two wars? Perhaps it is not convincing to you but to me it is. Through the years I have found out that Revelation contains a consistent network of OT references and that if one passage in the OT is the source of several passages in Revelation all these passages in Revelation will point to the same thing.

I'll show you the relation between Ezekiel 38-39 and the two passages in Revelation:

Ez.38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
Ez. 39;17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Ez. 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Rev.19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev. 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Rev. 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

It looks to me that it cannot be a coincidence that Rev. 19 points to the passage of Gog in Ezekiel. But why should that be done if there were a thousand years between Rev. 19 and Rev. 20:7-10? This would only add to confusion in those who read the book.

And if the two wars are identical then there is no question of survivors nor millennium mortals.

Dik

DIZZY
Dec 4th 2008, 12:35 PM
One problem. The righteous will be changed and will have immortal bodies when Christ returns. This doesn't leave any mortals to populate this supposed earthly millennial kingdom.

No it says and the angels gather those from heaven and the earth.

Mark 13:24-28
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

1. Those who come from heaven are the raptured church and the tribulation saints.

1 Corinthians 15:52 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=52&version=50&context=verse)
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Revelation 20:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=4&version=50&context=verse)
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


2. Those from the earth are the survivers from the tribulation.

Zechariah 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

These two groups are gathered to the same place before the Lord.

One lot reigns with Christ, those who have been resurrected. The church saints and the martyed tribulation saints.

The other lot go into the kingdom in their mortal bodies and they are ruled over by the Lord.

The later saints are the ones remaining from the nations that came up against the Lord. The wicked from all nations are destroyed which left the righteous saints behind to go into the millennial kingdom.

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 01:12 PM
Hi DurbanDude,

May I add a point that seems to plead for identify of the two wars? Perhaps it is not convincing to you but to me it is. Through the years I have found out that Revelation contains a consistent network of OT references and that if one passage in the OT is the source of several passages in Revelation all these passages in Revelation will point to the same thing.

I'll show you the relation between Ezekiel 38-39 and the two passages in Revelation:

Ez.38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
Ez. 39;17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Ez. 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Rev.19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev. 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Rev. 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

It looks to me that it cannot be a coincidence that Rev. 19 points to the passage of Gog in Ezekiel. But why should that be done if there were a thousand years between Rev. 19 and Rev. 20:7-10? This would only add to confusion in those who read the book.

And if the two wars are identical then there is no question of survivors nor millennium mortals.

Dik

I agree with you, the Ezekiel 38/39 war, the Joel war and the Zechariah 14 war , and the many references in Isaiah and other books as well are definitely matching the Rev 19 war, which I see as the second coming war. I went to great length to show john146 this close match between Rev 19 and Zechariah 14 the other day. Thanks for emphasizing the matching with Ezekiel.

The two wars of Rev 19 and Rev 20 appear to be two separate wars, not only because of context, but in the Rev 19 war it is the beast that is destroyed and cast into the lake of fire, the rest are slain with the sword, and their bodies are eaten by birds. There is reference to surviving nations that are subsequently ruled with an iron rod.

In the Rev 20 war there is no mention of swords, it is fire from heaven that destroys them, then their bodies are resurrected and cast into the lake of fire, no chance for the birds to eat the bodies. Satan is cast into the lake of fire, but the beast is already there. The new earth follows and all the ungodly are in the lake of fire, so it is impossible for there to be surviving nations in the Rev 20 war.

Take into account the context of the end of Rev 19 (refers to the beast) and the beginning of Rev 20 (v4 continues to refer to the beast) , and the differences between the two wars, on the balance of arguments it appears that these two chapters are actually consecutive, the two wars are 1000 years apart.

The fact that Gog is mentioned again in Revelation 20 has to be seen in context. Rev 20:8 is referring to the four corners of the earth. Remember Gog is described as the land in the far north. If you think about transport and knowledge at that time , could they name nations to the limits of the East (Japan?) limits of the west (Americas) limits of the south (Antarctica). The other lands remained unknown and unnamed to them, of the four corners of the earth only Gog could be named.

John146
Dec 4th 2008, 04:37 PM
Your argument is not with me, but with Matthew 35:32 and Zechariah 14:18. I didn't write those words there, te authors inspired by God did.If Matthew 25:31-46 is related to Zechariah 14 then why doesn't Zechariah 14 say anything about eternal sentences being handed out?


The picking and choosing again. How is the Lord my God coming in Zechariah the Father, and the same line in 2 Peter 3 be the Son? Are you saying that the Father is going to come to the earth, and require all men to come to Jerusalem yearly to worship Him? If we did not have Revelation 19 to read, you would be right. However, we KNOW that this coming is the coming of the Son.How do you conclude that Zechariah 14 is speaking of the second coming of Christ while 2 Peter 3 is not? Rev 19 lines up more with 2 Peter 3 because Rev 19 says absolutely nothing about anyone surviving the second coming of Christ and instead speaks of "all men, both free and bond, both small and great" being destroyed on that day.


I do not see anything here that screams out, "this is an eternal judgment". Then you must not be reading the passage very carefully. It couldn't be more clear that it refers to eternal judgments. Apparently, you are making it say what you want it to say rather than accepting it at face value.

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


I do see the nations being separated, and I can also see how you could draw the conclusion that Lord Jesus is separating the righteous from the sinners. However, the judgment of the nations as written in 25 is based on the people's treatment of the Believers, and that is why I see this as the judgment after Megiddo, and not the Last Day Judgment.It is not a judgment of nations because nations are not going to be given either everlasting punishment in everlasting fire or eternal life.


Calling me immature, just because I have shown a similarity between amil doctrine and JW doctrine? Seriously?Yes, it was quite immature of you. Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians. Are you implying that you think amils are not Christians? It comes across as if you are saying that amil is a cult. It's a very inappropriate comparison.


You amils are the onesd that can not accept the phrase, "and the rest of the dead are not raised until the 1000 years are completed". How is that different than the Jw's refusal to accept John 1:1? There isn't. That is not me throwing insults. This is an observer making observations.That is you making childish and insulting comments and nothing more.


So what is it? Matthew 24:29-31 clearly states that the Lord is going to remove the believers from the earth immediately after the Tribulation of that time. Yet you want to show Matthew 13 as evidence of the Lord destroying the earth at His coming, and the ones removed are the wicked. There appears to be a contradiction... but there isn't, and here's why.

1. The second coming of Christ is not the end of the world. It is only the end of an age. (the age of Satan).The age of Satan? Where is the scripture that speaks of an age of Satan?


2. Matthew 13:40 makes the tares comparison and says that "so shall it be in the end of this world." According to Revelation 20, that happens after the 1000 years end, and Satan is released from his prison. Yes, the end of the age occurs after the 1000 years. That is what I believe. And Jesus returns at the end of the age (Matt 24:3). That is what you appeart to be in denial about. You are not willing to acknowledge that the end of the world/age that He talks about in Matthew 13 is the very same end of the world/age that is mentioned in Matthew 24.


Therefore:

3. The example that you use does not fit the timeline set in the Bible, whiich includes all of the events that are to happen in both the OT and NT.I'm following the timeline set forth in Matthew 13 and Matthew 24 regarding the end of the age. You apparently are not willing to acknowledge that both are speaking of the very same end of the age.


I would agree, except this ruling over the new earth happens after all of the events that are suppose to happen on this earth are completed, including the chaining and sealing of Satan, the Son's direct rule over this planet, with His capital being Jerusalem, and the release of Satan, the rebellion, and their sudden and swift destruction.

Everything else from this point on is going to be round robin and de ja vu. You and I are goingto go around in circles saying the same things and continuing to disagree with eachb other. So there really isn't any more to say.You, of course, are not obligated to say any more than you want to about this. If you think of a new angle or issue that we haven't covered, feel free to bring it up and let's be civil about it and leave insults and that kind of thing out of it and just stick to the issues.

John146
Dec 4th 2008, 04:52 PM
No it says and the angels gather those from heaven and the earth.

Mark 13:24-28
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

1. Those who come from heaven are the raptured church and the tribulation saints.

1 Corinthians 15:52 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=52&version=50&context=verse)
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Revelation 20:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=4&version=50&context=verse)
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.Wait a minute. Are you saying you believe each of those 3 passages occur at the same time? Don't you, as a premil, believe that Rev 20:4 follows the second coming of Christ? How could you try to use Rev 20:4 for support of pre-trib? And neither 1 Cor 15:52 nor 1 Thess 4:15-17 support pre-trib, either, for that matter.


2. Those from the earth are the survivers from the tribulation.

Zechariah 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

These two groups are gathered to the same place before the Lord.

One lot reigns with Christ, those who have been resurrected. The church saints and the martyed tribulation saints.

The other lot go into the kingdom in their mortal bodies and they are ruled over by the Lord.

The later saints are the ones remaining from the nations that came up against the Lord. The wicked from all nations are destroyed which left the righteous saints behind to go into the millennial kingdom.No, sorry. What you're saying does not line up with these passages, among others:

Matt 25
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

When Christ comes the judgment occurs. All believers inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world and unbelievers are cast into everlasting fire.

2 Peter 3
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Even the earth will be burned up when Christ returns. This does not allow for an earthly millennial reign.

third hero
Dec 4th 2008, 05:37 PM
If Matthew 25:31-46 is related to Zechariah 14 then why doesn't Zechariah 14 say anything about eternal sentences being handed out?

That is because Matthew 25:31-46 deals with th nations, and those who treated the belegered saints well while they were under the duress of the Beast are the ones in whom the Lord will have mercy on. The rest are hurled into the Lake. This matches the "remnant of the nations that attacked Jerusalem" that is presented in Zechariah 14, as the heathen, especially mentioned in verse 18, are the ones who are ruled over by Christ in Jerusalem. Therefore, Matthew25:31-45 is the judgment that happens to the nations BEFORE the final judgment Day which does not happen until after Satan is released, and the final battle happens outside of "the beloved city".

Short version: Zechariah 14 does not mention eternal sentences because it does not have to. It merely mentions that the "wicked" end up turning into walking zombies as a plague from the Lord takes effect. The remnant, the survivors of the Lord's return, will be ruled by Him. Matthew 225:31-45 does not mention how He kills them, (although Zechariah 14 does), but the end results are the same. Those remnants of the heathen nations are spared their lives while the rest of the wicked perish, (and are sent into the Lake, instead of having to wait in hell like everyone else).


How do you conclude that Zechariah 14 is speaking of the second coming of Christ while 2 Peter 3 is not? Rev 19 lines up more with 2 Peter 3 because Rev 19 says absolutely nothing about anyone surviving the second coming of Christ and instead speaks of "all men, both free and bond, both small and great" being destroyed on that day.

IN Zechariah 14, there is no mentioning of the Last Day or the destruction of the earth by fire or anything else. It dos mention that the inhabitants of the earth will have to send representatives to worship Him at Jerusalem, and the resulting punishment for those who refuse is no rain, which is what will happen to Egypt. Thewre is no, "elements will be consumed in the heat of His fervor" like there is in 2 Peter 3. We call this, comparing apples to apples, and not comparing apples to oranges. No final destruction in Zechariah 14 equates to not being the same as the final destruction of the world mentioned in 2 Peter 3.


Then you must not be reading the passage very carefully. It couldn't be more clear that it refers to eternal judgments. Apparently, you are making it say what you want it to say rather than accepting it at face value.

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It is not a judgment of nations because nations are not going to be given either everlasting punishment in everlasting fire or eternal life.

If Matthew 25:31-45 were stand-alone sentences, then we could agree. However, Matthew 25 deals with two subjects. The ten virgins represent the judgment of the Believers, and verses 31-45 deal with the rest, which are the heathen nations. Verse 46 sums up the entire chapter, with the five wise virgins representing the believers who are taken to the marriage supper with the Bridegroom, and judgment representing what happens to the wicked. The only other thing that is mentioned is the reward for those who showed mercy for the saints, which is not mentioned in verse 46.


Yes, it was quite immature of you. Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians. Are you implying that you think amils are not Christians? It comes across as if you are saying that amil is a cult. It's a very inappropriate comparison.

That is you making childish and insulting comments and nothing more.

It is not childish of me to show similarities, and just because you do not like the comparison does not make it an insult. IF you do not want ot be like the JW's then stop figurating around Revelation 20.


The age of Satan? Where is the scripture that speaks of an age of Satan?

The "Age of Satan" is my term to describe the time period that this world has been under the direct influence of Satan. I base this on the temptations of Christ, when Satan showed the Lord all of the nations of the world, and the splendor of the nations, and offered them to the Lord. The Lord did not call Satan a liar, but told him that he is to worship the Lord his God, and serve Him only. This means that the entire nations of the world are Satan's right now, for he is the "god of this world" according to Paul. Therefore, the entire age of this world, from the moment Eden was removed to the point of the Lord's return, I call the "Age of SAtan".


I gotta go to work right now, but, I'll finish my rebuttle when I return.

John146
Dec 4th 2008, 06:10 PM
That is because Matthew 25:31-46 deals with th nations, and those who treated the belegered saints well while they were under the duress of the Beast are the ones in whom the Lord will have mercy on. The rest are hurled into the Lake. This matches the "remnant of the nations that attacked Jerusalem" that is presented in Zechariah 14, as the heathen, especially mentioned in verse 18, are the ones who are ruled over by Christ in Jerusalem. Therefore, Matthew25:31-45 is the judgment that happens to the nations BEFORE the final judgment Day which does not happen until after Satan is released, and the final battle happens outside of "the beloved city".

Short version: Zechariah 14 does not mention eternal sentences because it does not have to. It merely mentions that the "wicked" end up turning into walking zombies as a plague from the Lord takes effect. The remnant, the survivors of the Lord's return, will be ruled by Him. Matthew 225:31-45 does not mention how He kills them, (although Zechariah 14 does), but the end results are the same. Those remnants of the heathen nations are spared their lives while the rest of the wicked perish, (and are sent into the Lake, instead of having to wait in hell like everyone else). You must believe that those survivors of the heathen nations had a kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34) and receive eternal life (Matt 25:46) at that time then, right?


IN Zechariah 14, there is no mentioning of the Last Day or the destruction of the earth by fire or anything else. It dos mention that the inhabitants of the earth will have to send representatives to worship Him at Jerusalem, and the resulting punishment for those who refuse is no rain, which is what will happen to Egypt. Thewre is no, "elements will be consumed in the heat of His fervor" like there is in 2 Peter 3. We call this, comparing apples to apples, and not comparing apples to oranges. No final destruction in Zechariah 14 equates to not being the same as the final destruction of the world mentioned in 2 Peter 3.According to 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 the day of the Lord that comes as a thief in the night is directly related to the second coming of Christ. According to 2 Peter 3 that days brings not only the destruction of unbelievers but the burning up of the earth itself.


If Matthew 25:31-45 were stand-alone sentences, then we could agree. However, Matthew 25 deals with two subjects. The ten virgins represent the judgment of the Believers, and verses 31-45 deal with the rest, which are the heathen nations. Verse 46 sums up the entire chapter, with the five wise virgins representing the believers who are taken to the marriage supper with the Bridegroom, and judgment representing what happens to the wicked. The only other thing that is mentioned is the reward for those who showed mercy for the saints, which is not mentioned in verse 46.The sheep and goats are both mentioned in verse 46. The goats get everlasting punishment. In verse 41, we find that they are cast into everlasting fire. The sheep represent the righteous who inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world, as we see in verse 34. They receive eternal life in that kingdom at that time. Therefore, you are trying to say that these surviving heathen sheep nations had a kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world in which they will live for eternity. Now, why would God do that for unbelievers? Remember, you don't have mortal believers entering into the millennial kingdom. Believers will all be changed and have immortal bodies at that time. You have unbelieving mortals entering into the millennial kingdom and receiving eternal life. How can that be?


It is not childish of me to show similarities, and just because you do not like the comparison does not make it an insult. IF you do not want ot be like the JW's then stop figurating around Revelation 20. Should I compare you to JW's because you don't take passages like Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 25:31-46 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 at face value?


The "Age of Satan" is my term to describe the time period that this world has been under the direct influence of Satan. I base this on the temptations of Christ, when Satan showed the Lord all of the nations of the world, and the splendor of the nations, and offered them to the Lord. The Lord did not call Satan a liar, but told him that he is to worship the Lord his God, and serve Him only. This means that the entire nations of the world are Satan's right now, for he is the "god of this world" according to Paul. Therefore, the entire age of this world, from the moment Eden was removed to the point of the Lord's return, I call the "Age of SAtan".You are making up unbiblical terms. Do you believe that there was no difference in what Satan was able to do before Christ came compared to after He came? Do you believe he had the same amount of power to deceive the nations after Christ came that he had before?

wpm
Dec 4th 2008, 06:52 PM
That is because Matthew 25:31-46 deals with th nations, and those who treated the belegered saints well while they were under the duress of the Beast are the ones in whom the Lord will have mercy on. The rest are hurled into the Lake. This matches the "remnant of the nations that attacked Jerusalem" that is presented in Zechariah 14, as the heathen, especially mentioned in verse 18, are the ones who are ruled over by Christ in Jerusalem. Therefore, Matthew25:31-45 is the judgment that happens to the nations BEFORE the final judgment Day which does not happen until after Satan is released, and the final battle happens outside of "the beloved city".


Who are the sheep nations? Can you name one righteous nation?

John146
Dec 4th 2008, 09:44 PM
Death is defeated against the believers at His return. Death is finally defeated when Jesus goes to judge all of mankind, as mentioned in Revelation 20:14 and 1 Corinthians 15:26. The "gap" which is clearly explained in BOTH 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 and Revelation 20:4-15 is at least 1000 years.Something occurred to me about what you're saying here. You say that "death is defeated against the believers at His return". Do you believe that believers die during the supposed future millennium? If so, how can you say that death is defeated against believers at His return?

third hero
Dec 5th 2008, 10:57 AM
Who are the sheep nations? Can you name one righteous nation?

Am I the judge that will judge the nations as written in Matthew 25:32? Am I the one who is doing the separating? Ask Lord Jesus, since He is the one who will do the judging.

Just because I am unqualified to say which nation fits where does not disqualify the actual wording of 25:32. It says that the Lord will judge the nations, and verse 40 and 44 show what criteria Lord Jesus uses in determnining the sheep from the goats, which is dependent solely of their treatment of His Brethern, the saints. I didn't make that up, it is actual scripture.

But since we are in the moood to ask questions, tell me, why can't you just accept what the scriptures actually say, especially the 20th chapter of Revelation? Why s it so difficult to understand that this earth will continue after the Lord returns?

John146
Dec 5th 2008, 02:58 PM
Am I the judge that will judge the nations as written in Matthew 25:32? Am I the one who is doing the separating? Ask Lord Jesus, since He is the one who will do the judging.

Just because I am unqualified to say which nation fits where does not disqualify the actual wording of 25:32. It says that the Lord will judge the nations, and verse 40 and 44 show what criteria Lord Jesus uses in determnining the sheep from the goats, which is dependent solely of their treatment of His Brethern, the saints. I didn't make that up, it is actual scripture. Are you ever going to attempt to explain how nations are given eternal sentences like everlasting punishment in the everlasting fire or eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world? Doesn't the rest of scripture make it clear that individuals will receive eternal sentences and not nations?

Also, it speaks about how people treated the least of these His brethren. The sheep are clearly believers. The least of these is a subset of believers. Do you actually think that unbelievers would inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world?


But since we are in the moood to ask questions, tell me, why can't you just accept what the scriptures actually say, especially the 20th chapter of Revelation? Why s it so difficult to understand that this earth will continue after the Lord returns?Why can't you accept what John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 25:31-46 say, which is that all the dead, saved and lost, are resurrected at the same time and that all people are gathered for judgment at the same time, which will be at the end of the age when Christ returns?

wpm
Dec 5th 2008, 03:08 PM
Am I the judge that will judge the nations as written in Matthew 25:32? Am I the one who is doing the separating? Ask Lord Jesus, since He is the one who will do the judging.

Just because I am unqualified to say which nation fits where does not disqualify the actual wording of 25:32. It says that the Lord will judge the nations, and verse 40 and 44 show what criteria Lord Jesus uses in determnining the sheep from the goats, which is dependent solely of their treatment of His Brethern, the saints. I didn't make that up, it is actual scripture.

But since we are in the moood to ask questions, tell me, why can't you just accept what the scriptures actually say, especially the 20th chapter of Revelation? Why s it so difficult to understand that this earth will continue after the Lord returns?

Could I suggest the reason why not one single sheep nation comes to mind is because there isn't such a thing? Do you at least admit that every single nation on earth consists of a high percentage of unregenerate men?

quiet dove
Dec 5th 2008, 08:33 PM
You guys are going tit for tat here with the "not accepting" scripture business. And both side know full well that we all believe scripture and "accept" scripture !!

John146
Dec 5th 2008, 09:07 PM
You guys are going tit for tat here with the "not accepting" scripture business. And both side know full well that we all believe scripture and "accept" scripture !!You're right. I agree with you. I apologize for my part in that. It's a waste of time and doesn't contribute anything fruitful to the discussion. Let's just stick to the scriptures, guys, and leave personal accusations out of it.

Joyfulparousia
Jan 23rd 2009, 08:26 PM
Could I suggest the reason why not one single sheep nation comes to mind is because there isn't such a thing? Do you at least admit that every single nation on earth consists of a high percentage of unregenerate men?

The sheep are mortals who have not taken the mark of the beast, yet who did not receive salvation until after the rapture. The 2 groups gathered before Jesus' throne of glory are 1.)the rebellious who have taken the mark, yet survived through the tribulation; these are goats 2.) the group mentioned above; these will be divided to either sheep or goats, depending on whether or not they accept Jesus as Messiah.