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Connie Sue
Nov 20th 2008, 03:49 PM
:hmm:What does this mean.... In 1Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. :confused

Emanate
Nov 20th 2008, 03:52 PM
It would appear the focus of this passage is that we, as believers, ought to hold love in the highest regard and not put our focus on the gifts of prophecy, knowledge, or tongues.

Slug1
Nov 20th 2008, 04:05 PM
:hmm:What does this mean.... In 1Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. :confusedTo me this explains the difference with those who do these to get into the emotionalism of the experience of this gift vs. the Holy Spirit bestowing this Gift on people to benefit the Body of Christ... show God's love for us.

As people allow the Holy Spirit to be in control and this Gift done in proper order... the sensational/emotional will go away and God's will, not man's emotion will guide church worship and in the case of Knowledge and Prophesy... church direction.

Whan emotionalism and sensationalism is the means, IMO it's false and any information provided by these three gifts will be false... thus no love is expressed cause it's not from God but from man.

Also, in context all this goes away once Jesus returns. Until then we just have to discern man's emulation of these gifts vs. God's bestowing of these Gifts.

VerticalReality
Nov 20th 2008, 04:14 PM
Specifically to the gift of tongues it means that love is eternal (which means this is what we should focus on), but revelatory gifts like prophecy, knowledge and speaking in tongues are temporary for this life until we are perfected.

RabbiKnife
Nov 20th 2008, 04:14 PM
It says what it says.

When this age is over, tongues, knowledge, and all of the gifts will cease because we will "see even as we are seen."

looking4jesus
Nov 20th 2008, 04:24 PM
It would appear the focus of this passage is that we, as believers, ought to hold love in the highest regard and not put our focus on the gifts of prophecy, knowledge, or tongues.

Exactly but this passage even tells more it says shall cease not that you need to put more attention on love and the gifts will still be there no it says cease which means they will stop. The problem is that people that are today hung up on all the emotions of these gifts do not belive Gods word when he says they shall stop. These gifts were gifts given to the early church. All prophecy has been written in Gods book theHoly Bible..people today that say they speak in tongues and give new prophecy are not of God but are being tricked by Satan. Paul new this would happen that is why the passage is there telling us about these very gifts. Everything we need to know is complete and written in Gods word .
God Bless
Randy

Emanate
Nov 20th 2008, 04:39 PM
Exactly but this passage even tells more it says shall cease not that you need to put more attention on love and the gifts will still be there no it says cease which means they will stop. The problem is that people that are today hung up on all the emotions of these gifts do not belive Gods word when he says they shall stop. These gifts were gifts given to the early church. All prophecy has been written in Gods book theHoly Bible..people today that say they speak in tongues and give new prophecy are not of God but are being tricked by Satan. Paul new this would happen that is why the passage is there telling us about these very gifts. Everything we need to know is complete and written in Gods word .
God Bless
Randy

While I agree fully with the view you presented, I do not believe that is the focus of this passage. The passage is focused on love, not the tongues, prophecy or knowledge. Sure, what we see today is, in my view, a cheap imitation (if it can be called imitation) of the events found in the first century. Perhaps that is why, even then, Saul taught that our focus should be love, not gifts.

looking4jesus
Nov 20th 2008, 05:49 PM
While I agree fully with the view you presented, I do not believe that is the focus of this passage. The passage is focused on love, not the tongues, prophecy or knowledge. Sure, what we see today is, in my view, a cheap imitation (if it can be called imitation) of the events found in the first century. Perhaps that is why, even then, Saul taught that our focus should be love, not gifts.

Ok I see your point I agree it certainly could be view in the way you describe it here.

God Bless
Randy

Mysteryman
Nov 20th 2008, 05:57 PM
While I agree fully with the view you presented, I do not believe that is the focus of this passage. The passage is focused on love, not the tongues, prophecy or knowledge. Sure, what we see today is, in my view, a cheap imitation (if it can be called imitation) of the events found in the first century. Perhaps that is why, even then, Saul taught that our focus should be love, not gifts.

I don't think that is what Paul is saying here. All he is saying, that the greatest is love. It is not that we should not put our focus not on the gifts !

Is it not love to heal someone ? Gift of healing !

looking4jesus
Nov 20th 2008, 06:05 PM
I don't think that is what Paul is saying here. All he is saying, that the greatest is love. It is not that we should not put our focus not on the gifts !

Is it not love to heal someone ? Gift of healing !

Those gifts Paul was mentioning were for the early church however even if you do not belive that and just look at the passage it clearly said that all will fail except love and of course that is where you need to focus all the other gifts even if they were geniune today which I doubt, will have a lots of ego attached with them and self'pride where love real love has none of this.
God Bless
Randy

Emanate
Nov 20th 2008, 07:07 PM
I don't think that is what Paul is saying here. All he is saying, that the greatest is love. It is not that we should not put our focus not on the gifts !

Is it not love to heal someone ? Gift of healing !


Saul is not saying simply that love is the greatest gift. He is saying that all else will fail and/or vanish away, yet love is eternal.

Brett
Apr 4th 2012, 03:01 PM
[quote=Emanate;1874793]It would appear the focus of this passage is that we, as believers, ought to hold love in the highest regard and not put our focus on the gifts of prophecy, knowledge, or tongues.[/quote

Exactly but this passage even tells more it says shall cease not that you need to put more attention on love and the gifts will still be there no it says cease which means they will stop. The problem is that people that are today hung up on all the emotions of these gifts do not belive Gods word when he says they shall stop. These gifts were gifts given to the early church. All prophecy has been written in Gods book theHoly Bible..people today that say they speak in tongues and give new prophecy are not of God but are being tricked by Satan. Paul new this would happen that is why the passage is there telling us about these very gifts. Everything we need to know is complete and written in Gods word .
God Bless
Randy

Randy.... That which is perfect is the return of Jesus Christ. If he were refering to the Bible as being that which is perfect, Every person that hears the Word would believe in Jesus. When Jesus comes the second time everyone will know He is the true King and every knee will bend. Jesus is THE ONLY THING WHICH IS PERFECT.

Arrow
Apr 4th 2012, 03:11 PM
One day all things will cease, not only tongues.

John 8:32
Apr 4th 2012, 03:30 PM
:hmm:What does this mean.... In 1Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. :confused

Are you asking concerning the tongues, or all three? If just tongues...

Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

Remember, Paul knew more of the OT and understood more than most do today. Christ will give everyone just one pure language. Just one of the many wonderful things Jesus Christ shall bring when He returns and sets His Kingdom over the earth for the Millenium.

Colight
Apr 4th 2012, 03:39 PM
Randy.... That which is perfect is the return of Jesus Christ. If he were refering to the Bible as being that which is perfect, Every person that hears the Word would believe in Jesus. When Jesus comes the second time everyone will know He is the true King and every knee will bend. Jesus is THE ONLY THING WHICH IS PERFECT.

Not every one who heard Christ believed and he was standing right in front of them...

Perfect is referred to in Gender neutral.
Christ is referred to in gender male.

Greek: teleios

1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness

It is in the gender neutral;
Therefore it is referring to non-human.

Paul also lists that which is in part being knowledge and prophesy ; and states that it will be brought to completeness.
Thus it is referring to the completeness of Knowledge and prophesy;
This is the Bible.

With the Complete scripture there is no need for these partial gifts.

Brett
Apr 4th 2012, 04:03 PM
Not every one who heard Christ believed and he was standing right in front of them...

Perfect is referred to in Gender neutral.
Christ is referred to in gender male.

Greek: teleios

1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness

It is in the gender neutral;
Therefore it is referring to non-human.

Paul also lists that which is in part being knowledge and prophesy ; and states that it will be brought to completeness.
Thus it is referring to the completeness of Knowledge and prophesy;
This is the Bible.

With the Complete scripture there is no need for these partial gifts.

Of course not every person who saw Jesus believed in Him when He walked the earth. He came as a man and if everyone knew Him to be The Son of God it would have been impossible for him to die for our sins. I'm glad you know Biblical Greek but actually it's telos not teleios. The scripture we are discussing uses telos which means all coming to a end. The word teleios which is not used in this particular passage means to finish a work or a work coming to an end. The Baptist church has stood on that mistranslated word for so long nobody has bothered to bring it up for correction. For that matter we should actually call the Baptist denomination Dippers since the actual translation for the Greek Baptizo is to dip. You can be a First Dipper or a Freewill Dipper.

Colight
Apr 4th 2012, 05:34 PM
Of course not every person who saw Jesus believed in Him when He walked the earth. He came as a man and if everyone knew Him to be The Son of God it would have been impossible for him to die for our sins. I'm glad you know Biblical Greek but actually it's telos not teleios. The scripture we are discussing uses telos which means all coming to a end. The word teleios which is not used in this particular passage means to finish a work or a work coming to an end. The Baptist church has stood on that mistranslated word for so long nobody has bothered to bring it up for correction. For that matter we should actually call the Baptist denomination Dippers since the actual translation for the Greek Baptizo is to dip. You can be a First Dipper or a Freewill Dipper.

From my studies and research material I have on hand... teleios is the word used there.
Telos is a root word that teleios comes from but teleios is used in the passage of 1 Corinthians 13:10; And it comes to mean mature, of full age.
..
Since there is a immature reference in previous verses of prophecy and knowledge.
This is about the completeness of prophecy and knowledge, that completeness is contained in the Bible.
Since tongues was not part of 'being in part', when the 'complete' matured.
Tongues faded for they had a limited use and life span.


If you have a link to the study of Telos being used instead.. please reference it.

I am not a baptist, therefore I have no opinion on what they believe.

Rullion Green
Apr 4th 2012, 05:50 PM
Thread date circa 2008

no one ever resurrects my old threads........ wonder why ?

Colight
Apr 5th 2012, 12:33 AM
Some thing I am mulling over the Tongues thing.

Paul states...

1 cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as he Law also says.

I guess that would mean that women would not have the legitimate gift of tongues since they are to keep silent in the Churches,
To state a women can have the gift of tongues would be in direct conflict with Gods word as the spirit moved Paul to write for them to be silent.

-SEEKING-
Apr 5th 2012, 01:24 AM
Thread date circa 2008

no one ever resurrects my old threads........ wonder why ?

Challenge accepted!!!!!

awestruckchild
Apr 5th 2012, 02:48 AM
Challenge accepted!!!!!

Lol!
I already looked. The pages didn't go back very far - 2011

Rullion Green
Apr 5th 2012, 06:30 AM
Challenge accepted!!!!!

This could be embarrassing....:blush:

Tony N
Apr 5th 2012, 08:55 AM
To me this explains the difference with those who do these to get into the emotionalism of the experience of this gift vs. the Holy Spirit bestowing this Gift on people to benefit the Body of Christ... show God's love for us.

As people allow the Holy Spirit to be in control and this Gift done in proper order... the sensational/emotional will go away and God's will, not man's emotion will guide church worship and in the case of Knowledge and Prophesy... church direction.

Whan emotionalism and sensationalism is the means, IMO it's false and any information provided by these three gifts will be false... thus no love is expressed cause it's not from God but from man.

Also, in context all this goes away once Jesus returns. Until then we just have to discern man's emulation of these gifts vs. God's bestowing of these Gifts.

Hi I am new on here.

I really like what you said. We have a similar problem to the thing you described in our locality. With a particular person, everything that emerges is being pushed along by tears or hysteria.

But it won't turn me into a cessationist, because i have seen and participated in spiritual gifts in proper order, many times. I know what a blessing they can be.

Tony N
Apr 5th 2012, 09:11 AM
[QUOTE=looking4jesus;1874847]

Randy.... That which is perfect is the return of Jesus Christ. If he were refering to the Bible as being that which is perfect, Every person that hears the Word would believe in Jesus. When Jesus comes the second time everyone will know He is the true King and every knee will bend. Jesus is THE ONLY THING WHICH IS PERFECT.

You are correct. If the perfect were here, there would be no sin in the church, there would be no divisions or denominations. We ourselves would be perfected, indeed we would have been resurrected. Gifts of the spirit are essential, to guide the church along. We cannot always guarantee that the sermon being preached on a particular day was guided by God for every person present in their current situation. It may have just popped out of a lectionery (a church calendar for ruling what sermon to preach). God may have something particular to say to a person who is present. Whilst the sermon was talking about generous giving, God may want to challenge a person about their need for salvation, or the way they treat their wife. A timely word spoken by a spiritual member of the congregation could reveal a persn's own heart to them just in the nick of time. it can also convict an ungodly person to return or to God or a Sinner to repent.
Then we have the gift of healing. Do we want the sick to suffer in Satan's hands? You may say, if it is God's will I will not get better. If that were true, it would be a sin to go to a doctor. However, we know it is not true. That is why I believe that divine healing is for today.

Ta-An
Apr 5th 2012, 09:32 AM
Hi I am new on here.

. Welcome Tony :)

awestruckchild
Apr 5th 2012, 01:39 PM
This could be embarrassing....:blush:

HAHA!
Is that embarrassment I see tattooed all over your face?
You guys are too funny!

Watchman
Apr 5th 2012, 01:47 PM
Some thing I am mulling over the Tongues thing.

Paul states...

1 cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as he Law also says.

I guess that would mean that women would not have the legitimate gift of tongues since they are to keep silent in the Churches,
To state a women can have the gift of tongues would be in direct conflict with Gods word as the spirit moved Paul to write for them to be silent.
1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head...

Perhaps a new, or resurrected, thread re: women's role(s) in the church is in order??

blessings,

W :)

Watchman
Apr 5th 2012, 01:49 PM
Several have hit on the essence of the passage in the OP. Love is the key. Love is patient. Let patience have her perfect work, that we may be complete. When we are complete, then we are as Christ. Then we see Him face to face and know Him as He knows us. Then, and only then, will incomplete knowledge, tongues, and prophecy pass away.

blessings,

W :)

awestruckchild
Apr 5th 2012, 02:13 PM
Good luck telling women to be silent. My guess is you'll get more tongue than you care to hear.
This is just like what happens with the words of Jesus and scripture. If things appear to war with each other, we need to work on them so we are sure we have good understanding.
Paul also said there was no more male or female.

So instead of only focusing on one verse from Paul, how do we integrate them, the two together AND fit them with all Jesus said?

By the way, Saved7 posted a link to a very good teaching on men and women and the mess we get into over a few words from Paul.

Colight
Apr 5th 2012, 02:40 PM
Good luck telling women to be silent. My guess is you'll get more tongue than you care to hear.

So we should avoid seeking the truth, in order as not to offend a bunch of women?

In scripture..there is a natural order of things.
1 Tim 2
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

When it comes to the Church the men are to have the authority, that is the natural order.
To avoid that which is natural is in essence to rebel against God.
It would be no worse than for men to seek to lay with men for pleasure, that also is in violation of the natural order God has laid out.



This is just like what happens with the words of Jesus and scripture. If things appear to war with each other, we need to work on them so we are sure we have good understanding.

There really is no war, when one is in subjection to the commands given as to the order of the church, when mans or a womans pride and rebellion get in the mix. Then is when strife occurs.



Paul also said there was no more male or female. So instead of only focusing on one verse from Paul, how do we integrate them, the two together AND fit them with all Jesus said?

There was way more than one verse written on this issue..

If there is no male of female.. then why go to the problem of assigning gender roles? - that would be illogical.

Also back to my original point...

If women to to keep silent in the Church assembly, then it would be logical that they would not have the gift of tongues.

Watchman
Apr 5th 2012, 02:51 PM
So we should avoid seeking the truth, in order as not to offend a bunch of self righteous women?

When it comes to the Church the men are to have the authority, that is the natural order. To avoid that which is natural is in essence to rebel against God.

There really is no war, when one is in subjection to the commands given as to the order of the church, when mans or a womans pride and rebellion get in the mix. Then is when strife occurs. There was way more than one verse written on this issue..If there is no male of female.. then why go to the problem of assigning gender roles? - that would be illogical.

Also back to my original point...

If women to to keep silent in the Church assembly, then it would be logical that they would not have the gift of tongues.
Hi Colight,

Your opening question, above, is out of line, IMO. Who says those who disagree with your view of scripture are self-righteous? You haven't addressed the scripture I quoted re: women prophesying...and I'm quite sure they didn't prophesy silently! I don't want to hijack this thread, but...

blessings,

Watchman :)

Colight
Apr 5th 2012, 02:59 PM
Hi Colight,

Your opening question, above, is out of line, IMO. Who says those who disagree with your view of scripture are self-righteous? You haven't addressed the scripture I quoted re: women prophesying...and I'm quite sure they didn't prophesy silently! I don't want to hijack this thread, but...

blessings,

Watchman :)

Would their prophesy be a gift used in the Church to lead men, from what Paul wrote, it would not seem so.

Would it be something used to lead other women and raise the kids...that would seem to be where it would fit in.

Slug1
Apr 5th 2012, 03:03 PM
If women to to keep silent in the Church assembly, then it would be logical that they would not have the gift of tongues.

You may want to pick that "self-righteous" card that you dropped onto the floor in this thread... it's littering up the place.

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

v15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples[c] (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord[a] in one place.

v3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Women were clearly receiving the empowerment to speak in tongues along with the men.

Colight
Apr 5th 2012, 03:17 PM
You may want to pick that "self-righteous" card that you dropped onto the floor in this thread... it's littering up the place.

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

v15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples[c] (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord[a] in one place.

v3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Women were clearly receiving the empowerment to speak in tongues along with the men.

Would you consider that a proper church setting seeing as they had not even been given the Rules on how to conduct them self in that Environment.

Paul wasnt even a Apostle at that point to give them the rules. ( they thought they had the power to choose the Apostle, Christ made the choice for Paul)

Therefore As a refute for women to keep silent in church, when the Church was not even started at that point is a rather illogical position for you to stand on.

John 8:32
Apr 5th 2012, 03:19 PM
You may want to pick that "self-righteous" card that you dropped onto the floor in this thread... it's littering up the place.

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

v15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples[c] (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord[a] in one place.

v3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Women were clearly receiving the empowerment to speak in tongues along with the men.

There is a prescribed method of worship and there are certain precedents, but women are just as much heirs of salvation as men. In the Kingdom, some of the macho, self-righteous men may very well be under the authority of former women in the governmental structure. (kings and priests - no one thinks God is an anarchist do they?)

awestruckchild
Apr 5th 2012, 03:31 PM
So we should avoid seeking the truth, in order as not to offend a bunch of women?

In scripture..there is a natural order of things.
1 Tim 2
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

When it comes to the Church the men are to have the authority, that is the natural order.
To avoid that which is natural is in essence to rebel against God.
It would be no worse than for men to seek to lay with men for pleasure, that also is in violation of the natural order God has laid out.




There really is no war, when one is in subjection to the commands given as to the order of the church, when mans or a womans pride and rebellion get in the mix. Then is when strife occurs.




There was way more than one verse written on this issue..

If there is no male of female.. then why go to the problem of assigning gender roles? - that would be illogical.

Also back to my original point...

If women to to keep silent in the Church assembly, then it would be logical that they would not have the gift of tongues.

It is NOT an attempt to avoid the truth when you take ALL of the words of God and swallow them whole. They can turn bitter to you in your mouth, but when they do, it is not good to spit out and reject the ones that appear bitter to your taste. It is your tastebuds that are the problem - NOT the words.

It IS avoiding the truth if you are a picky eater and insist that you will not swallow what He has seen fit to give us, but instead insist on picking off the crust and the sour pickles.

You are doing the same thing with Paul's words that you do with the words of Jesus.
You have already said that you will live forever, but that to use the words of Jesus in the church only brings confusion because He did not speak them for the gentiles. You accept when He says you will live forever because it is sweet in your mouth. Then you reject the turning of your cheek to your enemies because it isn't to your taste.

Now, you seem to want to rabidly follow Paul, yet do the same thing with his words. It is to your liking that he said for women to keep silent, so you eat it. It is not to your liking that he said there is no more male or female for us, so you spit it out.

A child who eats only the dessert but not the brussel sprouts does not have health in his bones.

Slug1
Apr 5th 2012, 03:40 PM
Would you consider that a proper church setting seeing as they had not even been given the Rules on how to conduct them self in that Environment.

Paul wasnt even a Apostle at that point to give them the rules. ( they thought they had the power to choose the Apostle, Christ made the choice for Paul)

Therefore As a refute for women to keep silent in church, when the Church was not even started at that point is a rather illogical position for you to stand on.Your stance is that women can't have the gift of tongues due to what Paul said later... so did God stop empowering women to speak in tongues after Paul corrected the Corinthians' misuse of tongues as a congregation?

Women speak in tongues today just as men speak in tongues today... just as they did the moment the gifts were given to the Body of Christ on the day of Pentecost.

The gifts are for the Body of Christ, not a church or the church... based on definition of "church". Due to the use of "church" as a ref to the Body of Christ we have various denominations and thus, some "churches" deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit and some don't. Some "churches" abuse the gifts the same as the Corinthians did and some don't.

"Church" is NOT the Body of Christ... ALL who are in the Body of Christ CAN be empowered with any of the the gifts of the Holy Spirit. However, "churches" have both SUPPRESSED and even DENY the Holy Spirit from doing this in "their church".

"The Church" is NOT the Body of Christ.

The Gifts are for the Body of Christ so to say that the "church" hadn't been formed yet on that day of Pentecost... don't make much sense. The Body of Christ instantly began at the moment the Holy Spirit finally CAME UPON those 120 people.

Man is who segregates the Body of Christ into flavors or "denominations" that SUIT THEM.

Start a thread in Bible Chat about the topic of women talking in church and I'm sure it will be edifying as long as the "self-righteous" cards remain in the trash where they belong... OK?

Colight
Apr 5th 2012, 03:49 PM
It is NOT an attempt to avoid the truth when you take ALL of the words of God and swallow them whole. They can turn bitter to you in your mouth, but when they do, it is not good to spit out and reject the ones that appear bitter to your taste. It is your tastebuds that are the problem - NOT the words.
It IS avoiding the truth if you are a picky eater and insist that you will not swallow what He has seen fit to give us, but instead insist on picking off the crust and the sour pickles.


We are told to RIGHTLY divide the word of truth...
not jam huge chucks of it down..
We divide it nicely and properly.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.




You are doing the same thing with Paul's words that you do with the words of Jesus.

Doing what? At least in two of Pauls letters he tell women to be silent in Church, I didnt write his letters, nor can I ignore what he wrote to the Church.
Us being the Gentile Church and Paul being the Apostle to the Gentiles, we may wish to have a listen to what he says. .

You have already said that you will live forever
Dont know where you got that from..., men die. That is the natural order of things.
After death we have a eternal existence, but we must still pass thru death..



, but that to use the words of Jesus in the church only brings confusion because He did not speak them for the gentiles.
Christ was sent to the Jews, He sent Paul to minister to the gentiles.


You accept when He says you will live forever because it is sweet in your mouth. Then you reject the turning of your cheek to your enemies because it isn't to your taste.

So we will not have eternal life if we fail to turn the cheek...
Would that be salvation by works?
Also if no one slaps your cheek and you never even give you a chance to turn it, would you be lost or saved?


Now, you seem to want to rabidly follow Paul, yet do the same thing with his words. It is to your liking that he said for women to keep silent, so you eat it. It is not to your liking that he said there is no more male or female for us, so you spit it out.

Yet Paul was QUITE vivid on gender roles with in the church... Perhaps when he is stating we are one in Christ he is not stating that nullifies the gender roles he laid out for the operation of the church.


Paul was stating positionally we are one in Christ, however physically we still have our different genders, gifts and roles to play.




A child who eats only the dessert but not the brussel sprouts does not have health in his bones.

It is not healthy to ignore the natural order of things, for a little poison will kill the whole body.
The natural order if for women to be submissive to the men, to be in rebellion to that order is a poison that will kill the body that digests that.

awestruckchild
Apr 5th 2012, 04:01 PM
Doing what? At least in two of Pauls letters he tell women to be silent in Church, I didnt write his letters, nor can I ignore what he wrote to the Church.
Us being the Gentile Church and Paul being the Apostle to the Gentiles, we may wish to have a listen to what he says. .


Christ was sent to the Jews, He sent Paul to minister to the gentiles.


How odd. Paul preached to the gentiles every word of Jesus. Yet you have said the words of Jesus only confuse the church if we insist on using them in the church.

Yes, we may definitely want to have a listen to what Paul says, because he preached every word from the mouth of Jesus to the gentile church.

Eat your brussel sprouts!

Colight
Apr 5th 2012, 04:03 PM
Your stance is that women can't have the gift of tongues due to what Paul said later... so did God stop empowering women to speak in tongues after Paul corrected the Corinthians' misuse of tongues as a congregation?

My stance is if women are to keep silent in Church, and tongues is used in Church, would they have the gift that would violate the command for them to be silent.


Women speak in tongues today just as men speak in tongues today... just as they did the moment the gifts were given to the Body of Christ on the day of Pentecost.

Careful, not all believe tongues is a valid and active gift TODAY. Would hate for you to make doctrinal pronouncements with out taking their views into consideration.



The gifts are for the Body of Christ, not a church or the church... based on definition of "church". Due to the use of "church" as a ref to the Body of Christ we have various denominations and thus, some "churches" deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit and some don't. Some "churches" abuse the gifts the same as the Corinthians did and some don't.

Yes but these passages go into the gifts and their operation with in the church, there for the power structure of the church is in play with the used of these gifts. There is order, for God is not the author of confusion.

1 cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


"Church" is NOT the Body of Christ... ALL who are in the Body of Christ CAN be empowered with any of the the gifts of the Holy Spirit. However, "churches" have both SUPPRESSED and even DENY the Holy Spirit from doing this in "their church".

"The Church" is NOT the Body of Christ.

So then the order God has set down, being the pastor-teachers leading flocks,is in error.. instead it is more of a lone-wolf maverick thing?


The Gifts are for the Body of Christ so to say that the "church" hadn't been formed yet on that day of Pentecost... don't make much sense. The Body of Christ instantly began at the moment the Holy Spirit finally CAME UPON those 120 people.

Yet Paul was writing to how proper order should be handled in the Church.
The doctrine of the church had not been written at the time of Pentecost, it was immature and in part.
Which leads us to That being in part is done away when the complete handbook is done.
Even the Children of Israel had to get the Commandments from God at mount Sinai before they could really properly operate as a nation.
The same it is for the body of Christ.
Why would that concept be hard to grasp?




Man is who segregates the Body of Christ into flavors or "denominations" that SUIT THEM.

We each run our own race...some dont have the finish line as the goal... others do..that is freedom.

Colight
Apr 5th 2012, 04:08 PM
How odd. Paul preached to the gentiles every word of Jesus.

Every word huh, care to prove that. Being as Paul never walked with Christ on his ministry.

Most of Paul's writings was stuff Christ never addressed.... that being the Church,
Paul even had to correct many of the other Apostles.



Yet you have said the words of Jesus only confuse the church if we insist on using them in the church.

Yes if they are not presented in the context of what they was spoken in, it can lead to confusion.. Why would you have issue with CONTEXT?


Yes, we may definitely want to have a listen to what Paul says, because he preached every word from the mouth of Jesus to the gentile church.

Eat your brussel sprouts!

And Paul said more than once for women to keep silent in Church.

Again Paul covered many things Christ never did, for the rejection of Christ by the Jews spawned the gentile Church.
This Church has even more blessings than any other period in human history.

Arrow
Apr 5th 2012, 04:29 PM
Every word huh, care to prove that. Being as Paul never walked with Christ on his ministry.

I really wonder about some of your ideas...

Paul said He follows Christ, and he said he has the mind of Christ, therefore awestruckchild is far closer to the right idea than you are.

I haven't seen you prove one thing you believe yet, so why do you ask others to?

awestruckchild
Apr 5th 2012, 04:37 PM
Oh, you are just a mess, colight.
You are hopped up on sugar, bouncing off the walls and slamming into all of the other children.

You try to make this about everything BUT the gospel of Christ.
There is no soundness in anything you say.
The only post I have even seen you agree with at all is when you encouraged one poor child named Mark in his doubt, and told him how his doubt was good.

The only reason I still talk with you is for the benefit of children like Mark, so they will not listen to guile. I refuse to let you have them.

Personally, I think you need to be sent to your room with the gospel and with your plate of brussel sprouts. But since no one will make you go, I will be here to try to snatch even one for Christ, who died to have them.

One more thing. My brother slug? He NEVER preaches a doctrine of man unless it agrees with the words of His Savior. And if he ever finds himself doing it, he repents and gets immediately back to Christ and Him crucified.

awestruckchild
Apr 5th 2012, 04:43 PM
Every word huh, care to prove that. Being as Paul never walked with Christ on his ministry.


Paul walked with Christ every DAY of his ministry.

awestruckchild
Apr 5th 2012, 05:10 PM
So we should avoid seeking the truth, in order as not to offend a bunch of women?

In scripture..there is a natural order of things.
1 Tim 2
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

When it comes to the Church the men are to have the authority, that is the natural order.
To avoid that which is natural is in essence to rebel against God.
It would be no worse than for men to seek to lay with men for pleasure, that also is in violation of the natural order God has laid out.




There really is no war, when one is in subjection to the commands given as to the order of the church, when mans or a womans pride and rebellion get in the mix. Then is when strife occurs.




There was way more than one verse written on this issue..

If there is no male of female.. then why go to the problem of assigning gender roles? - that would be illogical.

Also back to my original point...

If women to to keep silent in the Church assembly, then it would be logical that they would not have the gift of tongues.

I notice that you do this a lot. You go back and revise your post to remove portions that have made you look bad. The first sentence previously said: SELF-RIGHTEOUS women.
Maybe you wouldn't have to sneak back and revise so much if you would think before you speak.

Watchman
Apr 5th 2012, 05:34 PM
Would their prophesy be a gift used in the Church to lead men, from what Paul wrote, it would not seem so.

Would it be something used to lead other women and raise the kids...that would seem to be where it would fit in.
Well, there you go again. Priscilla helped Aquila teach Apollos..and they were all part of the church. You are trying to make the scriptures fit your interpretation instead of vice versa. Have you considered that when Paul spoke of the church, he was NOT speaking about what we know as 'worship services'?

W :)

Watchman
Apr 5th 2012, 05:37 PM
Would you consider that a proper church setting seeing as they had not even been given the Rules on how to conduct them self in that Environment.
Please give book, chapter, and verse regarding and defining a 'proper church setting.'

Thank you,

Watchman :)

Watchman
Apr 5th 2012, 05:39 PM
Therefore As a refute for women to keep silent in church, when the Church was not even started at that point is a rather illogical position for you to stand on.
The ekklesia was started the day the Head of her rose from the grave. He is the firstborn; consequently, His resurrection began the ekklesia, yes?

W :)

Watchman
Apr 5th 2012, 05:49 PM
Start a thread in Bible Chat about the topic of women talking in church and I'm sure it will be edifying as long as the "self-righteous" cards remain in the trash where they belong... OK?
Well, sir, I'm not Colight, but I started just such a thread.

blessings,

Watchman the hijacker :D

Slug1
Apr 5th 2012, 05:55 PM
Well, sir, I'm not Colight, but I started just such a thread.

blessings,

Watchman the hijacker :D
Hooah!!

Admin Note: Any posts off topic from this point, can be and will be deleted. Direct any unrelated discussion about the role of women in the Body of Christ to the new thread. Thanks! It's located here >> Click (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/237175-Women-speaking-in-the-church) <<

Watchman
Apr 5th 2012, 06:19 PM
:hmm:What does this mean.... In 1Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. :confused
1 Corinthians 13:8-12 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Paul has been talking about the maturity gained through love. Compare how he opened this portion in the first part of chapter 13, vv 1-2:

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Note that he mentions tongues, knowledge (understanding mysteries), and prophecy. The thrust of the entire letter of 1 Corinthians is that the Corinthian saints were immature and unloving...and that these things must change. Incomplete knowledge, tongues, and prophecy will not be needed any longer...at the time the Lord determines His work is complete.

blessings,

W :)

John 8:32
Apr 5th 2012, 06:32 PM
The ekklesia was started the day the Head of her rose from the grave. He is the firstborn; consequently, His resurrection began the ekklesia, yes?

W :)

I would disagree on the day, but I would say it occurred 50 days later.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You must have the Holy Spirit to be a Christian. Christ's. Now when was the HS given?

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The birth of the Ekklesia, the called out ones, was on Pentecost, Sunday, June 17, 31AD.

Colight
Apr 5th 2012, 06:37 PM
A proper understanding of tongues would be in order to know when they should cease..

What was the purpose of tongues?
Paul give us that purpose in...


1 Cor 14:21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(of Israel); and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The purpose of tongues was a sign to the UNBELIEVING JEWS of upcoming destruction and discipline.
When that destruction occurred in 70ad, the sign of that destruction came to a end.

Therefore proper tongues ended around 70ad.

Slug1
Apr 5th 2012, 06:42 PM
A proper understanding of tongues would be in order to know when they should cease..

What was the purpose of tongues?
Paul give us that purpose in...


1 Cor 14:21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(of Israel); and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The purpose of tongues was a sign to the UNBELIEVING JEWS of upcoming destruction and discipline.
When that destruction occurred in 70ad, the sign of that destruction came to a end.

Therefore proper tongues ended around 70ad.You do realize that Corinth is in the region of Greece and the Body of Christ was both Jew and Gentile that Paul was speaking to. Both Jews and Gentiles were speaking out of order as they exercised this gift in a way to "show off"... IOWs, without love.

So was he only correcting 1/2 the Body of Christ in that area?

Colight
Apr 5th 2012, 06:45 PM
You do realize that Corinth is in the region of Greece and the Body of Christ was both Jew and Gentile that Paul was speaking to. Both Jews and Gentiles were speaking out of order as they exercised this gift in a way to "show off"... IOWs, without love.

So was he only correcting 1/2 the Body of Christ in that area?''
From what I read..
Tongues was not directed at the body of Christ.
Rather towards the unbelievers.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:

Imagine being a self righteous pharisee of that day being witnessed to by some gentile speaking your tongue..it would be rather shocking.
These Judizers where though out the area, remember it was Jews From Asia ( Turkey) that accused Paul in the temple.

Slug1
Apr 5th 2012, 07:26 PM
''
From what I read..
Tongues was not directed at the body of Christ.
Rather towards the unbelievers.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:

Imagine being a self righteous pharisee of that day being witnessed to by some gentile speaking your tongue..it would be rather shocking.
These Judizers where though out the area, remember it was Jews From Asia ( Turkey) that accused Paul in the temple.

It will be a blessing and with much edification to discuss this and all related scriptures concerning tongues with you.

However, before I continue I'll ask a question and based on the answer I will know if this is going to be an edifying discussion or a debate.

Concerning tongues, it's clear that you believe they have ended back about 70AD based on a previous post of yours. So here is my question... Since tongues continues today all throughout the Body of Christ all over the world, are you willing to discuss these scriptures with a heart to learn, or DESPITE the fact that tongues are spoken all throughout the Body of Christ today, you will stick to your belief that tongues is ended and you will continue to choose to either ignore that tongues are being spoken today, or you will actually force yourself to disbelieve that tongues are spoken today?

Yeah, I know.... long question but this will establish if you are seeking God's truth based on the fact He's still empowering Christians to speak in tongues.

If you take that ONE SINGLE scripture (v22) and apply it the way you did, what you state would be correct. However, in the context of ALL the scriptures of 1 Cor 12-14... you are OUT of context and thus... INcorrect.

Tongues was also spoken to the Body of Christ in any given church, 2-3 would speak in tongues and 1 would give a interpretation (gift of interpretations of tongues) of what the Holy Spirit was empowering the other 2-3 to speak. This was TO the Body of Christ for the EDIFICATION of all those present in the congregation.

You're read those scriptures, I know you must have but you CAN'T post them it seems because then your statement that, "Tongues was not directed at the Body of Christ" would then be proven false.

Well, I'm telling you, your statement is false because tongues was directed at the congregation while one interpreted.

Concerning v22... define "unbelievers" also please?

chad
Apr 5th 2012, 08:43 PM
Paul is teaching on Love in Corinthians 13:1-9. Love triumphs over gifts. What use are the gifts of the Holy Spirit, if not used in it's correct purpose. That is to build up the church in love, for Gods Glory.

In verse 8, Paul starts with love never fails. Where there are prophecies, they will cease, Where there are tongues, they shall be stilled, where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

But then we come back to the first part of verse 8 - Love never fails.

(1 Cor 13:8 NIV) Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.




:hmm:What does this mean.... In 1Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. :confused

Colight
Apr 6th 2012, 03:56 AM
Concerning tongues, it's clear that you believe they have ended back about 70AD based on a previous post of yours. So here is my question... Since tongues continues today all throughout the Body of Christ all over the world, are you willing to discuss these scriptures with a heart to learn, or DESPITE the fact that tongues are spoken all throughout the Body of Christ today, you will stick to your belief that tongues is ended and you will continue to choose to either ignore that tongues are being spoken today, or you will actually force yourself to disbelieve that tongues are spoken today?

Yeah, I know.... long question but this will establish if you are seeking God's truth based on the fact He's still empowering Christians to speak in tongues.

On the flip side, can your heart be open to the truth as I see it.. that tongues are stilled, and the tongues today are counterfeit.

If tongues today was in fact a great blessing and a sign of great spiritual advance, then why today is the nation of America in such dire straights ?
Many churches in the USA are filled with tongues. You cant walk more than a block in some cities with out bumping into 3 or 2 Churches ..

With all that huge spiritual growth occurring, there should be blessing with out end.
I think that perhaps that great spiritualism is a delusion and the churches in the USA have strayed from the path it should be on, this is why the courts of heaven have commenced their judgements.

Also....
Why should the bases for this conversation be that my position is wrong and your position is Gods truth.
Why should you operate from a position that I don't have a 'heart to learn' if I do not see things your way.
From the get go that is not a way to start a honest discussion.

BTW
I saw tongues in action the other day.
I was in the tombs of these Long dead Muslim kings.
A Muslim was there doing his chants.. and he did some speaking in tongues that would have impressed the most avid holy roller.
But first he had to set his jaw and crank his neck, as he was trained, so that he could get the proper gutteral tone that would make his chants come out in such a way.



If you take that ONE SINGLE scripture (v22) and apply it the way you did, what you state would be correct. However, in the context of ALL the scriptures of 1 Cor 12-14... you are OUT of context and thus... INcorrect.

Tongues either are or are not a sign.
That is the context.


Tongues was also spoken to the Body of Christ in any given church, 2-3 would speak in tongues and 1 would give a interpretation (gift of interpretations of tongues) of what the Holy Spirit was empowering the other 2-3 to speak. This was TO the Body of Christ for the EDIFICATION of all those present in the congregation.


The gospel presented edifys the body, in those days those who spoke tongues presented the gospel in other languages that certain members of the crowd would understand. So if some captured ZULU slaves was in the crowd and suddenly some Jew started to minister to them in their native language, that would be quite impressive. These ZULU slaves would take what was being said as something to listen to, for there is no way that Jew could have know their language by other means.



You're read those scriptures, I know you must have but you CAN'T post them it seems because then your statement that, "Tongues was not directed at the Body of Christ" would then be proven false.

Well, I'm telling you, your statement is false because tongues was directed at the congregation while one interpreted.

Concerning v22... define "unbelievers" also please?

22so that the tongues are for a sign, not to the believing, but to the unbelieving; and the prophesy [is] not for the unbelieving, but for the believing,

Tongues are a sign to the The unbelieving jews

For in

2 cor 14: 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

This people.. is a reference to the unbelieving Jew.

Slug1
Apr 6th 2012, 01:36 PM
On the flip side, can your heart be open to the truth as I see it.. that tongues are stilled, and the tongues today are counterfeit.Let me give you a little bit of testimony that many on this board already know. I lived on the flip side for many, many years. When I came to this board back in 2005 I was in bondage to the Cessationist doctrine. Much of what you say and how you apply scripture... I did the same.

A member of this board simply kept testifying when I kept telling that person that tongues had ended, any tongues today was nothing but emotionalism and/or counterfeit. This person kept testifying, kept asking me to seek God and to STOP looking at the emotionalism and counterfeit tongues going on around me. After about a year of this member challenging me (was was that deep in bondage), I did as they asked. I begin to seek God... it was rough because I was going against what I BELEIVED was the truth.

It took about a full year of seeking Him, of allowing the Holy Spirit to help me understand all the scriptures I didn't (want) believe and I began to actually see the scriptures in God's context. Not the arrangement that the Cessationist doctrine arranges them.

When my heart was in a condition of surrender and humility, this "unbeliever" in the POWER of God experienced the Power of God in action. I happened to visit a church I'd never been before, a Hispanic church even and I don't speak a lick of Spanish and I experienced tongues that night. Not me speaking in tongues but another as they were baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gave utterance.

So, I've been on both your side and I'm now on... God's side.

Like I said, if you want to debate this... I've been in so many debates over the years I'm discouraged sometimes. If you want to learn, as I asked... then I will do what I can in testimony

The reason I asked for you to define "unbeliever" is that while their are always unbelievers in the sense that they have NO relationship with God, their are also many who do have that relationship with God but are still unbelievers in the Power of God. I was a believer in God as in relationship, but a hardcore UNBELIEVER in the Power of God.

If I walked into a church and some members spoke in tongues (the real deal, Holy Spirit empowered tongues) and interpretation was given, I'd be one of those unbelievers thinking... these people are NUTS.

I've also experience false tongues as you described in your post... this does NOTHING but cause an unbeliever to be bound up deeper and harder in their unbelief. It is one of the reason's that satan empowers people to do false signs... to entice the unbelievers (no real relationship in Christ), to lure those of faith (Christ said even His children can be lured away), and how you (and I was) are affected (to drive you away from God's power) and to keep you an unbeliever.

Gotta go to school... cya later!

Colight
Apr 6th 2012, 04:19 PM
Let me give you a little bit of testimony that many on this board already know. I lived on the flip side for many, many years. When I came to this board back in 2005 I was in bondage to the Cessationist doctrine. Much of what you say and how you apply scripture... I did the same.

A member of this board simply kept testifying when I kept telling that person that tongues had ended, any tongues today was nothing but emotionalism and/or counterfeit. This person kept testifying, kept asking me to seek God and to STOP looking at the emotionalism and counterfeit tongues going on around me. After about a year of this member challenging me (was was that deep in bondage), I did as they asked. I begin to seek God... it was rough because I was going against what I BELEIVED was the truth.

It took about a full year of seeking Him, of allowing the Holy Spirit to help me understand all the scriptures I didn't (want) believe and I began to actually see the scriptures in God's context. Not the arrangement that the Cessationist doctrine arranges them.

When my heart was in a condition of surrender and humility, this "unbeliever" in the POWER of God experienced the Power of God in action. I happened to visit a church I'd never been before, a Hispanic church even and I don't speak a lick of Spanish and I experienced tongues that night. Not me speaking in tongues but another as they were baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gave utterance.

So, I've been on both your side and I'm now on... God's side.

Like I said, if you want to debate this... I've been in so many debates over the years I'm discouraged sometimes. If you want to learn, as I asked... then I will do what I can in testimony

The reason I asked for you to define "unbeliever" is that while their are always unbelievers in the sense that they have NO relationship with God, their are also many who do have that relationship with God but are still unbelievers in the Power of God. I was a believer in God as in relationship, but a hardcore UNBELIEVER in the Power of God.

So now there are new terms, that being a unbeliever in the power of God..
Where did that one crop up?
Oh my.... hate to be accused of that one...does it come with a penalty of hell fire?

My Bet is.. that some churches they will tell you that it does...

For me there does not have to be any tricks, side shows, or struggles.
Doctrine is stated in scripture, therefore I believe it.
I know that makes boring a testimonies, will not get that many A-MENS in the Holy Rollar churches.
Not very exciting, nor does it get the ol goose bumps flowing over the listeners.
But when the night is silent and the music is stopped, that is all you are left with.
Is what doctrine do you know and have you applied it..



If I walked into a church and some members spoke in tongues (the real deal, Holy Spirit empowered tongues) and interpretation was given, I'd be one of those unbelievers thinking... these people are NUTS.
Since we are sharing testimonies, perhaps you will allow me the liberty of sharing mine..

I would know they are nuts, for I grew up in that briar patch..
They are quite mad.
They fall apart at the slightest breeze.
Churches full of Strife... Contention.. gossip... SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.. ( I know you do not like that term, but that was what these churches was full of in my experience with them)

Churches full of evil nagging women running the men of the church with their hate and slander
( mostly at any pastor that would dare tell the truth.)
The men are a bunch of shallow weak sisters where if you dont speak the correct clucking noises at the right times then you have a hard heart.

oh I can spot it right on... miles away..
I call it my gift... I can dial them out like a childhood phone number.

That is my experience.. perhaps yours is more pleasant.



I've also experience false tongues as you described in your post... this does NOTHING but cause an unbeliever to be bound up deeper and harder in their unbelief. It is one of the reason's that satan empowers people to do false signs... to entice the unbelievers (no real relationship in Christ), to lure those of faith (Christ said even His children can be lured away), and how you (and I was) are affected (to drive you away from God's power) and to keep you an unbeliever.


For me there is no difference, they are both false..
Dont believe me?
See how upset people get when you question its validity, it knocks them properly out of shape.


They do not build layer upon layer of solid teaching, instead it just this passage and that passage, here a line and there a line.. back and forth like a drunk man.

They will first spatter irrelevent bible passages accuse you of being hard hearted, non christian, or in some cult, if you dont see the meaning as they do in those passages.
Then if that does not penetrate
They go the nice route..
They try to lay emotional guilt trips upon you, about how nice they are and how closed minded you are. They are only trying to help you understand God better. Smooth words to test the weak..

Their goal is to make you doubt your positions,
Make you doubt what you have learned and tested,
Make you question the almost divine strength you had when the night was silent and the pain was screaming.
Make you question the calmness you had in God when that what you once loved now has eyes of hate.
They try to make you doubt that you can even have a relationship with God, unless you are part of their particular thing.


Ok....I am done with the personal testimony thing, and I am sure many would find it offense.
But at least it is honest. You shared.. I shared..

You want to impress me, make a doctrinal case for your position. Layer upon layer of supporting dogmas.

Tongues is a sign (doctrine)
Tongues is a sign to unbelievers ( doctrine 2)
From Isaiah Tongues is a sign to non-believer jews of incoming judgement ( doctrine 3)
The judgement occurred in 70 ad, therefore the need of the sign ended. ( doctrine 4)
Paul states tongues thru their use will in effect cause itself to fade away.-- think of a wind up spring loosing tension thru its use ( doctrine 5)

Now how can that which is a sign to unbelievers, something that fades thru its use..be a point of modern day edification of the church in which unbelievers of foreign tongues are not even present in the listening audience..
( Doctrine Clash... therefore to be rejected)

Slug1
Apr 6th 2012, 06:02 PM
( Doctrine Clash... therefore to be rejected)For years my doctrine clashed... cept it was with God. I am free of doctrine now (not bound) and God's power (gifts of the Holy Spirit) flow freely.

I would be where you are at if I didn't surrender... in a relationship with God, but no power of God on the miraculous level. I denied the Holy Spirit's flow and freedom to move through me for many years due to the bondage to doctrine and my unbelief.

Corinth was a hub for both Jew's and Gentiles and the gifts flowed for ALL, through all, not ONLY the Jews. Cornelius proves the fact that Gentiles can speak in tongues.

Slug1
Apr 6th 2012, 06:10 PM
The judgement occurred in 70 ad, therefore the need of the sign ended. ( doctrine 4)Paul would disagree, he said this was when the signs would end:

1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Paul even emphasized something for us all in the Body of Christ as God concluded His instruction through Paul:

1 Cor 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.[e]

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

I was SO ignorant, not anymore.

Colight
Apr 6th 2012, 06:32 PM
Paul would disagree, he said this was when the signs would end:

1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Actually is says that which was in part will be done away... Tongues was not in part. they will just cease the ceasing is cause by their use..for their purpose was to warn the jews, when they served their purpose they faded.

Prophecies and knowledge was in part.


Paul even emphasized something for us all in the Body of Christ as God concluded His instruction through Paul:

1 Cor 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.[e]

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

I was SO ignorant, not anymore.

In the TIME this was written... Tongues was a gift that was given as a SIGN to Israel, so in that time they should not be forbidden.

Watchman
Apr 6th 2012, 06:36 PM
Colight,

May I ask where you studied, or from whom you got many of your ideas re: the meaning of scriptures?

Thanks,

Andy aka Watchman :)

Colight
Apr 6th 2012, 06:38 PM
I would be where you are at if I didn't surrender... in a relationship with God, but no power of God on the miraculous level. I denied the Holy Spirit's flow and freedom to move through me for many years due to the bondage to doctrine and my unbelief.

You see the issue is I dont look for signs or miraculous events..
God states it in doctrine, I believe it.
We are to live by faith.. faith is not looking for event or for God to show him self to us.

Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


We are to plot ahead only on faith, no signs..no miracles... only faith.

Colight
Apr 6th 2012, 06:41 PM
Colight,

May I ask where you studied, or from whom you got many of your ideas re: the meaning of scriptures?

Thanks,

Andy aka Watchman :)

Many places,
I grew up in a Southern Baptist Private school, then a fundamental baptist school.

Then i have studied under various pastors at various churches.
I tend to focus more on those who teach from the Hebrew and Greek.
I like meat and challenges in the doctrine over a feel good emotional message, I grew up in the feel good messages.

Watchman
Apr 6th 2012, 06:43 PM
Many places,
I grew up in a Southern Baptist Private school
Then i have studied under various pastors at various churches.
I tend to focus more on those who teach from the Hebrew and Greek.
I like meat and challenges in the doctrine over a feel good emotional message..
Thanks. That helps me relate to you much better.

blessings,

W :)

PS: and FWIW...I grew up in the Church of Christ tradition and have been mostly taught by the Spirit through authors, situations, my pastor, and directly. I, too, like to delve into the Greek and Hebrew..both of which are more rich languages than English. My native tongue is Texan!

Colight
Apr 6th 2012, 06:46 PM
Thanks. That helps me relate to you much better.

blessings,

W :)
I love a pastor who does point by point exegetical teaching, based off Hebrew, Latin and Greek of the scriptures.

Colight
Apr 6th 2012, 06:50 PM
PS: and FWIW...I grew up in the Church of Christ tradition and have been mostly taught by the Spirit through authors, situations, my pastor, and directly. I, too, like to delve into the Greek and Hebrew..both of which are more rich languages than English. My native tongue is Texan!

Honestly, I could not enter certain churches even if it was for a friends wedding.
Wife teases me that she is going to get me in some falling out of the spirit church and lock the doors just to watch me go crazy.
Women are evil.


Texas is a great state.
If I had my choice of states to live in, it would be Tennessee .

Slug1
Apr 9th 2012, 01:35 AM
You see the issue is I dont look for signs or miraculous events..
God states it in doctrine, I believe it.
We are to live by faith.. faith is not looking for event or for God to show him self to us.

Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


We are to plot ahead only on faith, no signs..no miracles... only faith.Faith however is what God uses to show us and OTHERS that our faith is real. James speaks about this in detail.

Paul states that:

1 Cor 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

I actually TOTALLY agree with you that we are NOT to LOOK for signs and miraculous events. This however, does not mean that God will not move in power through men and women of God today.

You seem to imply that living "by" faith... means God won't or CAN'T move in power in a Christian's life or through the Body of Christ at all.

Seems man does fear the supernatural. That word alone generates thoughts of "evil" and not good. God works in power as Paul states and this is the supernatural. So what man fears, they avoid. What man don't understand, they avoid. What man don't want to accept, they avoid.

This is why we have churches without the power of God and people believing that God don't do miracles or empower the Body of Christ with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Better to be "safe" in a church that God has NEVER moved supernaturally. This is also why when a person who has this lack of understanding, don't want to HAVE this understanding, or actually fear the power of God... they speak out against God Himself when He is manifesting any of His supernatural gifts through the Body of Christ today in other churches. They speak out against other Christians who testify of God moving in their lives supernaturally.

We just can't take a single scripture about faith as in Hebrew 10:38 and say that God isn't gonna do a miracle in a person's life or NOT allow them to walk in the POWER of God. Relationship in God is to experience His power and also to be USED in power by God so He is glorified when a person is empowered to do any of the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Scary stuff... I ran away from the supernatural for years when I would rather hold to my belief that God HAD NO POWER to be exercised through servants obedient to Him.

Watchman
Apr 9th 2012, 02:13 AM
I don't look for signs and wonders, either...but have certainly seen both real and counterfeits!

W :)

John 8:32
Apr 9th 2012, 02:59 PM
I don't look for signs and wonders, either...but have certainly seen both real and counterfeits!

W :)

If anyone ever saw signs and wonders it would be Israel as God brought them out of Egypt and the wandered for 40 years. Manna everyday for six days, water from rock, quails til they came out of their noses, a cloud by day for cooling, and a fire by night for warmth, etc. But it did not convert them, their bones dropped in the wilderness and they did not inherit the land. Miracles do not convert people, the Spirit of God does.

Watchman
Apr 9th 2012, 03:15 PM
If anyone ever saw signs and wonders it would be Israel as God brought them out of Egypt and the wandered for 40 years. Manna everyday for six days, water from rock, quails til they came out of their noses, a cloud by day for cooling, and a fire by night for warmth, etc. But it did not convert them, their bones dropped in the wilderness and they did not inherit the land. Miracles do not convert people, the Spirit of God does.
Neither miracles, nor stirring eloquence, nor manipulation converts people. ONLY His Spirit does that...amen! I've never seen anything like the Israelites saw, but am thankful to have been involved in healings, deliverances, and prophecies that were real. I have a friend in Albuquerque who doesn't speak Spanish, yet, when he goes deep into southern Mexico to minister, the people hear him in their native language. I love the way God works!

W :)

Slug1
Apr 9th 2012, 04:48 PM
If anyone ever saw signs and wonders it would be Israel as God brought them out of Egypt and the wandered for 40 years. Manna everyday for six days, water from rock, quails til they came out of their noses, a cloud by day for cooling, and a fire by night for warmth, etc. But it did not convert them, their bones dropped in the wilderness and they did not inherit the land. Miracles do not convert people, the Spirit of God does.

Amen! Miracles are what God has used and continues to use to simply glorify Himself and people have the choice to believe in Him with or without miracles in their lives or the lives of others. When He does knock out a sign/wonder/miracle to give proof to the message of the Gospel, why do Christians today say that's not needed? They aren't telling the people who God is using to do sign/wonders/miracles that they are not needed... such Christians are simply obedient servants, so why DIRECT a dislike of God doing a s/w/m through them... AT them? When Christians speak out against the Body of Christ being used by God to do s/w/m, they are speaking out AGAINST the Holy Spirit.

One more step over the line of speaking out against the Holy Spirit as He manifests in power and say it's of the devil, the Christian has committed blasphemy.

This is the ENTIRE a sole purpose for the false cessationist doctrine. To blind Christians so strongly to the power of God and the movement of the Holy Spirit upon and through the Body of Christ that when people do speak in tongues and prophetic edification is brought forth by the one empowered to interpret... some may do one of three things... 1) Run away, 2) Just say it's fake and not really God, 3) Say it's the devil.

Now... if it is counterfeit... and DISCERNMENT revealed it's counterfeit, COOL! Call it for what it is... but if the cessationist doctrine is used to discern the gift of tongues then ALL supernatural tongues are fake and thus not of God. So if a person who is bound in the cessationist doctrine states... THOSE TONGUES are OF THE DEVIL, because the false doctrine has led them to believe ALL tongues have ceased... they have STILL committed the sin of blasphemy, WHEN, big WHEN... the Holy Spirit actually is the source of the supernatural empowerment being exercised by Christians out there in the world today.

Discernment of God is needed when s/w/m are experienced or witnessed because the devil DOES counterfeit and imitate. If God has actually CEASED all s/w/m... then satan isn't imitating anymore. he's revealing himself with each s/w/m happening out there in the world.

If Christians would just to the math and add this up... since satan is still doing false signs and God has actually CEASED ALL signs/wonders/miracles... then the moment there is any sign/wonder/miracle... that would mean that satan has immediately revealed himself in a church body.

That DON'T add up.

God still does signs/wonders/miracles today... thus the reason satan continues to imitate and also counterfeit as well. The gift of DISCERNMENT is what empowers the Body of Christ by the power of God to ID these false s/w/m.


Neither miracles, nor stirring eloquence, nor manipulation converts people. ONLY His Spirit does that...amen! I've never seen anything like the Israelites saw, but am thankful to have been involved in healings, deliverances, and prophecies that were real. I have a friend in Albuquerque who doesn't speak Spanish, yet, when he goes deep into southern Mexico to minister, the people hear him in their native language. I love the way God works!

W :)Amen, I know a person who has experienced this kind of tongues while they were in Africa. They didn't manifest the gift of "kinds of tongues" the pastor who they visited did and her native language was what she heard this pastor speaking in and he stated that he was only speaking his native language while praying. She heard him praying in her native language and all present heard in theirs as well.

John 8:32
Apr 9th 2012, 06:44 PM
I don't look for signs and wonders, either...but have certainly seen both real and counterfeits!

W :)

Yes, and so have I my friend.

Colight
Apr 10th 2012, 05:44 AM
Faith however is what God uses to show us and OTHERS that our faith is real. James speaks about this in detail.
If there is something God has to "show" us, would be a sign..
Therefore not faith.
We are to live by faith, not signs.

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.



I actually TOTALLY agree with you that we are NOT to LOOK for signs and miraculous events. This however, does not mean that God will not move in power through men and women of God today.

That would be a sign.
Today it is only about faith, no signs, no miraculous events.



You seem to imply that living "by" faith... means God won't or CAN'T move in power in a Christian's life or through the Body of Christ at all.
Again that would not fall under the banner of faith. God gave us all we needed. We need no signs, we need no miracles.
For

Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.


Seems man does fear the supernatural. That word alone generates thoughts of "evil" and not good. God works in power as Paul states and this is the supernatural. So what man fears, they avoid. What man don't understand, they avoid. What man don't want to accept, they avoid.

Why is faith not enough?
If one is focused on signs and wonders, soon that is all they are into.
the thrill of the events, rather than the silence of the doctrine.


This is why we have churches without the power of God and people believing that God don't do miracles or empower the Body of Christ with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Better to be "safe" in a church that God has NEVER moved supernaturally. This is also why when a person who has this lack of understanding, don't want to HAVE this understanding, or actually fear the power of God... they speak out against God Himself when He is manifesting any of His supernatural gifts through the Body of Christ today in other churches. They speak out against other Christians who testify of God moving in their lives supernaturally.

Since you take a jab at those churches who dont need signs or wonders, would it be only fair to analyze the motives that occur in the worship services of each Church?
Remember you opened this can of worms, by stating they have a lack of understanding.

Shall I go into what the understanding is that occurs in churches of power.
I have over 30 years of personal observation of the POWER LUSTS, the Gossip circles, the show offs, the women gone batty after a pastor who dared speak a word of truth in their presence, the spiritual bullying..etc....

I guarantee you would shut down a thread after one in depth post as to the real motivations occurring in those churches.




We just can't take a single scripture about faith as in Hebrew 10:38 and say that God isn't gonna do a miracle in a person's life or NOT allow them to walk in the POWER of God. Relationship in God is to experience His power and also to be USED in power by God so He is glorified when a person is empowered to do any of the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Scary stuff... I ran away from the supernatural for years when I would rather hold to my belief that God HAD NO POWER to be exercised through servants obedient to Him.


Sorry but:
To seek an emotional experience repudiates the command to walk by faith and is, in fact, an insult to God.

2 Cor 5: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

Tony N
Apr 10th 2012, 07:13 AM
Jesus said that signs will follow believers. He didn't say just for a few years. The imbalance come when believers seek signs. The early church fathers testify to the continuation of spiritual gifts. By the wag don't confuse the writing of the New testament with the gift of prophecy. The NT was not written by prophets but by apostles, in contrast to the OT.NT prophets like Agabus did not write scripture, they just prophesied.prophecy today does not write scripture, it speaks in line with what has already been written down, just as in NT days

Colight
Apr 10th 2012, 11:03 AM
Jesus said that signs will follow believers. He didn't say just for a few years. The imbalance come when believers seek signs. The early church fathers testify to the continuation of spiritual gifts. By the wag don't confuse the writing of the New testament with the gift of prophecy. The NT was not written by prophets but by apostles, in contrast to the OT.NT prophets like Agabus did not write scripture, they just prophesied.prophecy today does not write scripture, it speaks in line with what has already been written down, just as in NT days

IT was quite clear when Pauls stated :



1 Cor 14:21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(of Israel); and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The purpose of tongues was a sign to the UNBELIEVING JEWS of upcoming destruction and discipline.
When that destruction occurred in 70ad, the sign of that destruction came to a end.

Therefore proper tongues ended around 70ad.

Tongues their their used worked to their own end, their purpose was to warn of the destruction of Israel. When that warning as complete they ended and so did Israel as a nation of God in 70ad.

Slug1
Apr 10th 2012, 02:34 PM
2 Cor 5: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)Amen! Are those who are faithful allowed to say NO to the Holy Spirit when God is to use them as a vessel to knock out a miracle or manifest any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Slug1
Apr 10th 2012, 02:39 PM
IT was quite clear when Pauls stated :



1 Cor 14:21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(of Israel); and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The purpose of tongues was a sign to the UNBELIEVING JEWS of upcoming destruction and discipline.
When that destruction occurred in 70ad, the sign of that destruction came to a end.

Therefore proper tongues ended around 70ad.

Tongues their their used worked to their own end, their purpose was to warn of the destruction of Israel. When that warning as complete they ended and so did Israel as a nation of God in 70ad.Can you support all this through the scriptures... especially with Jesus telling the Body of Christ to go out into the entire world and for those who believe and do the work of spreading the Gospel, signs/wonders will follow?

This task was only for the next several decades?

Also, if what you say is true, then why are those who spread the Gospel and who are faithful... STILL used by God today and the manifestation of tongues continues?

If you believe these supernatural manifestations of tongues aren't from God and the power of the Holy Spirit moving in power upon the Body of Christ... then who/what/how are Christians empowered in supernatural tongues today?

divaD
Apr 10th 2012, 03:04 PM
Can you support all this through the scriptures... especially with Jesus telling the Body of Christ to go out into the entire world and for those who believe and do the work of spreading the Gospel, signs/wonders will follow?

This task was only for the next several decades?

Also, if what you say is true, then why are those who spread the Gospel and who are faithful... STILL used by God today and the manifestation of tongues continues?

If you believe these supernatural manifestations of tongues aren't from God and the power of the Holy Spirit moving in power upon the Body of Christ... then who/what/how are Christians empowered in supernatural tongues today?




I would think Mark 16:20 gives us the correct context of Mark 16:15 and 17.

Here's what 16:15 and 17 says.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Here's what Mark 16:20 says.

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Who would be the 'they'? Everyone from that time until Christ returns, or just those that Christ said that to in verse 15? I would think it was meaning those at the time. And it looks like to me they did exactly as Jesus had instructed them to do when He said...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature..in which they did...And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them.

Then verse 17 states this...And these signs shall follow them that believe...which then too was fulfilled here...the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs. The way it looks to me then, you would have to show how the 'they' in verse 20 is meaning anyone other than those at the time, being this is based on historic events at the time. All I'm trying to do is to keep things in context, in regards to this particular passage. Not trying to imply anything in relation to what is happening or not happening in the church these days.

Colight
Apr 10th 2012, 03:22 PM
slug1


Also, if what you say is true, then why are those who spread the Gospel and who are faithful... STILL used by God today and the manifestation of tongues continues?

Here goes,.
You will not like what I state..

Being raised in that environment I was raised in and the work I do in the entertainment industry...

They are quite counterfeit.
From what I have seen they are nothing more than a learned act.
They are a source of confusion, they in no way enhance growth in the spiritual life.
God is not the author of confusion, tongues today are the very essence of confusion,.



If you believe these supernatural manifestations of tongues aren't from God and the power of the Holy Spirit moving in power upon the Body of Christ... then who/what/how are Christians empowered in supernatural tongues today?

Again you are asking me personally, so I will tell you..
You will not like what I say.
It is not edifying, but it is the truth as from a view out of my experience from a professional in the entertainment industry.

They are a learned act, just like how one learns a song to sing.
The tongues that are uttered are a result of coaching from others.
If it is coached, it is not of the Spirit..

Ever Notice how they all follow the same patterns.
Lots of music and emotion..huge drum sets and sound systems..
the only way you can really belong is if you join in the show..
a great build up.. a release...
Now you are all comrades after going thru that experience together.
The show has givin its participants the ( mental or physical) release they needed, no different than a rock concert.

These are not my words, rather the word of several professionals in the music industry..
There is certain format they follow in shows they do are to get a release out of the audience..
they compare that release to more of a sexual nature.
The same formats are performed in these churches where tongues are practiced.
They are serving the flesh and their emotions rather than Christ.

My very business is show business, this is what they do... it is all a show.. a act.
And you bought into it as reality.

Rom 16:18
For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.”

We are to live by faith not supernatural manifestations..
if you want supernatural manifestations watch ghost hunters or something.
That stuff is really not part of the church.

we are NEVER to take experience over doctrine.
we are never ordered to go seek a supernatural experience
We are order to renew our minds to the thinking of Christ and this is done thru study.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We are not order to go have a emotion high to show our self approved onto God, rather the silence of study of God word is one of the most beautiful sounds there is to heaven

Slug1
Apr 10th 2012, 03:42 PM
I would think Mark 16:20 gives us the correct context of Mark 16:15 and 17.

Here's what 16:15 and 17 says.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Here's what Mark 16:20 says.

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Who would be the 'they'? Everyone from that time until Christ returns, or just those that Christ said that to in verse 15? I would think it was meaning those at the time. And it looks like to me they did exactly as Jesus had instructed them to do when He said...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature..in which they did...And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them.

Then verse 17 states this...And these signs shall follow them that believe...which then too was fulfilled here...the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs. The way it looks to me then, you would have to show how the 'they' in verse 20 is meaning anyone other than those at the time, being this is based on historic events at the time. All I'm trying to do is to keep things in context, in regards to this particular passage. Not trying to imply anything in relation to what is happening or not happening in the church these days.I've always read those scriptures as the "theys, them, those" as the present Body of Christ until Christ returns. I added the emphasis points between all the ().

v15 And He said to them (the Apostles), “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He (= everyone else BESIDES the Apostles) who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those (= the Body of Christ) who ( = all believers and faithful in Christ): In My name they ( = the Body of Christ) will cast out demons; they ( = any faithful believer) will speak with new tongues; 18 they ( = any faithful believer) will take up serpents; and if they ( = any faithful believer) drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them ( = any faithful believer); they ( = any faithful believer) will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Here is another reason why this scripture (the Great Commission) isn't ONLY for those 11. Paul did it, Phillip did it, Timothy did it and others as well. Check this scripture out where a bunch of UNKNOWNS were successfully casting out demons in Jesus' name and this upset the Apostles:

Mark 9: 38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

Luke 9:49 Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”

So by these examples (Paul, Philip, Timothy) and scriptures about these "unknowns" doing some of the work that the Great Commission is ALL about... we can't even ASSUME that the Great Commission was ONLY for those 11 men and would only last for a period of several decades.

Jesus even prepared the model... first He prepared the 12, then he empowered the 12, then he prepared and empowered the 70, then He prepared and empowered the Body of Christ. The scriptures are all in sequential order in the Bible as Jesus prepared ultimately what was to be the Body of Christ.

So based on the progression of the work that Jesus established for this model... it is continued today THROUGH the Body of Christ today and will continue until His return. All that goes WITH the task of the Great Commission which also continues today.

Slug1
Apr 10th 2012, 04:29 PM
They are quite counterfeit.

You discerned this through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit?

If the only tongues you have witnessed are what you describe in the rest of your post... I get you 100%. There is NO need for the gift of discernment to be in action. Common sense discerns they are fake.

However, if satan supernaturally empowered people to speak in tongues (like your experience in India)... was the gift of discernment active through you and the Holy Spirit even revealed what type of demon was using that man to speak in "tongues" as a false sign on a supernatural level?



From what I have seen they are nothing more than a learned act.I have witnessed this as well. I am not speaking about this. In all my posts, I stress... "supernatural" tongues empowered by the Holy Spirit. If you continue to talk about the fake tongues and I keep talking about tongues in accordance with scripture, then we will forever be talking about two entirely different topics. This thread is about scriptural supernatural tongues empowered ONLY through the Holy Spirit.



They are a source of confusion, they in no way enhance growth in the spiritual life.AMEN... now, lets talk about the proper ORDER of supernatural tongues that brings edification and not confusion.



God is not the author of confusion, tongues today are the very essence of confusion,.AMEN... many in the Body of Christ are suffering from the same LACK OF LOVE that the Corinthians suffered from due to a lack of discipleship in the proper and orderly operation of the gift of "different kindS of tongeus".

Are you willing to disciple those who are in the same error as the Corinthians or just use them as a reason not to believe in the gift of tongues in operation today?



It is not edifying, but it is the truth as from a view out of my experience from a professional in the entertainment industry.

They are a learned act, just like how one learns a song to sing.
The tongues that are uttered are a result of coaching from others.
If it is coached, it is not of the Spirit.. Hooah, I agree. I have witnessed Christians telling other Christians that they can "teach" them to speak in tongues. This is a travesty.


Ever Notice how they all follow the same patterns.
Lots of music and emotion..huge drum sets and sound systems..
the only way you can really belong is if you join in the show..
a great build up.. a release...
Now you are all comrades after going thru that experience together.
The show has givin its participants the ( mental or physical) release they needed, no different than a rock concert. Hooah! Have you ever been in a church where the gift of tongues operates in the order per the scriptures... you can hear a pin drop unless the people are speaking. All others are receiving edification. If music was being played... it is lowered so the church can hear the tongues being spoken and then listen to the person interpreting.



Rom 16:18
For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.”

We are to live by faith not supernatural manifestations..
if you want supernatural manifestations watch ghost hunters or something.
That stuff is really not part of the church.As long as God wants to glorify Himself, is He then limited to only those who won't say NO to the Holy Spirit?


we are NEVER to take experience over doctrine.I totally agree and have expressed this. However, scripture is clear that God can and will and does move miraculously when He wants... who are we to say NO to the Holy Spirit when God wants to glorify Himself?

Let me ask you this... a church full of MATURE meat eating Christians, their faith is SO secure in Christ that the Holy Spirit doesn't need to move in "power" or supernaturally for any of them. Then one day a person is drawn by the Holy Spirit from the street as they walk by the church during a Sunday service. They come in to attend and listen to the service/sermon.

Now... if God wants to add credence to the message for this person so that they would KNOW that God is real and He plans to do this through a sign/wonder... is the faith of those already members of the church SO STRONG that they can be bold enough to NOT allow themselves to be used by the Holy Spirit?

I wonder... this is me thinking, I WONDER if a simple reason why some/many churches who ARE mature have never moved in the POWER of God on a supernatural level, that this is the reason? That they have matured themselves right away from being able to be USED BY God on a supernatural level? That if God plans to do a s/w/m for those who are weaker in faith, then He's restricted to churches who WILL allow Him to move on a supernatural level?

Something to think about.

divaD
Apr 10th 2012, 05:05 PM
I've always read those scriptures as the "theys, them, those" as the present Body of Christ until Christ returns. I added the emphasis points between all the ().

v15 And He said to them (the Apostles), “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He (= everyone else BESIDES the Apostles) who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those (= the Body of Christ) who ( = all believers and faithful in Christ): In My name they ( = the Body of Christ) will cast out demons; they ( = any faithful believer) will speak with new tongues; 18 they ( = any faithful believer) will take up serpents; and if they ( = any faithful believer) drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them ( = any faithful believer); they ( = any faithful believer) will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Here is another reason why this scripture (the Great Commission) isn't ONLY for those 11. Paul did it, Phillip did it, Timothy did it and others as well. Check this scripture out where a bunch of UNKNOWNS were successfully casting out demons in Jesus' name and this upset the Apostles:

Mark 9: 38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

Luke 9:49 Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”

So by these examples (Paul, Philip, Timothy) and scriptures about these "unknowns" doing some of the work that the Great Commission is ALL about... we can't even ASSUME that the Great Commission was ONLY for those 11 men and would only last for a period of several decades.

Jesus even prepared the model... first He prepared the 12, then he empowered the 12, then he prepared and empowered the 70, then He prepared and empowered the Body of Christ. The scriptures are all in sequential order in the Bible as Jesus prepared ultimately what was to be the Body of Christ.

So based on the progression of the work that Jesus established for this model... it is continued today THROUGH the Body of Christ today and will continue until His return. All that goes WITH the task of the Great Commission which also continues today.

Your conclusions are very logical. I indeed see how you conclude that. So at this point in time, I'm not going to argue with your conclusions, I'll ponder them tho. So instead, I'll give you my perspective, so that you can at least see how I might be reasoning things as well.


Here's my perspective, be it right or wrong. As to what was recorded in Mark 16, these folks never had the NT as of yet. So a lot of it would be via word of mouth, door to door so to speak. Notice again what it says here.

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


Mainly this part...and confirming the word with signs following. This would be before we would have all this in written form, IOW the NT. Now notice what this following passage states, keeping in mind, trying to keep things in context.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Verse 30 says....And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. That then agrees with what was recorded while He physically walked the earth, plus .Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Except of course, some of it wasn't recorded. But doesn't the book of Acts also show how that happened, the word being confirmed with signs following? It wouldn't be required that Jesus has to be bodily present, in order to be in the presence of His disciples, right?. Remember, I said those at the time, which would eventually include Paul.


According to John 20, since this would now be in written form for all to read, the reason these things were done, these signs in the presence of his disciples, is so that you and I, when we read these accounts that we might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing we might have life through his name. With that in mind, why in these days, after the written word, would the Lord still need to be confirming the word with signs following, when what is written is all that we need in order to believe? I was raised a Baptist.. So that meant that it was faith alone in the written word is the reason I believed, since Baptists weren't known to be Charismatic or anything. At least not back then. I have no clue about these days tho, since I'm no longer a Baptist. But the point is, many of us believe simply based on the facts of what is stated in the Word. Why do we need more than that? Jesus told Thomas that one is blessed when they believe, yet have not seen.

Colight
Apr 10th 2012, 05:17 PM
slug1



I totally agree and have expressed this. However, scripture is clear that God can and will and does move miraculously when He wants... who are we to say NO to the Holy Spirit when God wants to glorify Himself?

Sorry but it does not work that way..
You are trying a emotional appeal.. a plea to the heart..we are in a state where emotions are never to be trusted.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked....

Now we should trust that which is wicked for doctrinal choices??

The same BIBLE states the use of tongues.
And it was ONLY used as a sign to Israel, when that destruction occurred that sign ended.

So how is a by-gone sign of destruction some thing that God would need to use to glorify and prove him self to man?

If man is not even content with the existence of creation as proof of God.
Some tongues is really not going to improve their belief.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Are you trying to add external teaching to the solid teaching of the scripture in effort justify some emotional act that in no way adds to spiritual growth or soundness. For the church of Corinth exercised tongues,and they were labeled "carnal" and "babies". 1Cor.3:1-3.




Now... if God wants to add credence to the message for this person so that they would KNOW that God is real and He plans to do this through a sign/wonder... is the faith of those already members of the church SO STRONG that they can be bold enough to NOT allow themselves to be used by the Holy Spirit?

I wonder... this is me thinking, I WONDER if a simple reason why some/many churches who ARE mature have never moved in the POWER of God on a supernatural level, that this is the reason? That they have matured themselves right away from being able to be USED BY God on a supernatural level? That if God plans to do a s/w/m for those who are weaker in faith, then He's restricted to churches who WILL allow Him to move on a supernatural level?

Yet,
We have the complete word of God, there is no need for signs or prophecy when we have the mind of Christ in written form, if they want to learn more or have validation, they can read the bible.

Only the wicked seeks signs.

Matt 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;.....




Why Tongues are not active today
1) They are a learned and coached act
2) Believers are to live by Faith, not emotional signs and glorious miracles.
3) Tongues was a sign to the Unbelieving Jews of up and coming destruction. When that destruction occurred, the sign ended.
4) The use of tongues to day, is a service to ones own belly for tongues encourages the sins of pride and envy, neglecting the diversity and balance in the Holy Spirit's distribution of spiritual gifts: 1Cor.12:4-1; Rom.12:4-8.
5) Tongues did not mark spirituality or maturity as seen for the Corinthians who were labeled "carnal" and "babies", 1Cor.3:1-3, and yet who exercised tongues, 1Cor 12-14. - So Never is "tongues" a sign to a believer that he/she is "spiritual"

Slug1
Apr 10th 2012, 05:34 PM
Only the wicked seeks signs.

Matt 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;.....


You have this in the wrong context... the correct context is that the Pharisees were seeking for Christ to do a miraculous work so they could USE it as evidence AGAINST Him. Jesus clearly discerned this and that is why He called them wicked.

It is NOT in the context that people are wicked for seeking God's s/w/m. Scripture must be kept in proper context and understanding.

Colight
Apr 10th 2012, 05:43 PM
You have this in the wrong context... the correct context is that the Pharisees were seeking for Christ to do a miraculous work so they could USE it as evidence AGAINST Him. Jesus clearly discerned this and that is why He called them wicked.

It is NOT in the context that people are wicked for seeking God's s/w/m. Scripture must be kept in proper context and understanding.

Oh but it is in the right Context..
If God has to prove him self with some sign,
then the one he has to prove himself to is a "A wicked and adulterous generation"

One who is living by faith has no need of signs.
God will not give us signs when we are commanded to LIVE by Faith.

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

In faith there is no signs.

Slug1
Apr 10th 2012, 06:01 PM
Oh but it is in the right Context..
If God has to prove him self with some sign,
then the one he has to prove himself to is a "A wicked and adulterous generation"

One who is living by faith has no need of signs.
God will not give us signs when we are commanded to LIVE by Faith.

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

In faith there is no signs.Negative... only those who will use a s/w/m AGAINST God... is wicked. The Pharisee's and the people on their side were not seeking of the heart. They were seeking in the flesh to pin a charge against Jesus. Their purpose was unjust and wicked, thus Jesus called them out on this truth.

I agree with you, for about the 5th time... those of faith don't NEED s/w/m.

However, if God is to WANT to do one, they (those of faith in Christ) also can't say NO because their faith don't need it. It's NOT FOR THEIR FAITH, it's for God to bring glory to Himself.

Watchman
Apr 10th 2012, 06:15 PM
Lots of assumptions being made in this thread. Here are two:

1. faith and miracles are mutually exclusive
2. all present-day miracles are counterfeit

While I agree that believers do not need signs to confirm their faith, they often need healing or other manifestations of the Spirit such as prophesy, discernment, etc. Further, if faith and miracles are mutually exclusive, then why does the Holy Spirit manifest through some miraculously? Even if you're a cessationist, the Spirit manifested through some of the Corinthian saints via miracles...according to Paul. If they were believers, then why the miracles. Finally, there are millions and billions of unbelievers on the planet today. Since tongues were a sign to unbelievers (and NOT only to the Jews) in the days of Paul, then why would they not still be the same? The ONLY gifts that were said would cease in 1 Corinthians 13 are tongues, prophecy, and knowledge; consequently the rest should be considered as ongoing...even to a cessationist. It is eisegesis to try to claim that Paul really meant all the manifestations of the Spirit would cease when he specifically named only 3!

blessings,

Watchman :)

Colight
Apr 10th 2012, 06:16 PM
However, if God is to WANT to do one, they (those of faith in Christ) also can't say NO because their faith don't need it. It's NOT FOR THEIR FAITH, it's for God to bring glory to Himself.

To me you are squirming again.
Tongues has always been a issue of confusion, not glory.
Why is it that tongues bring glory, but yet other gifts do not.

I am not coming to the same conclusion as you on this.
To me you seem mislead.

Watchman
Apr 10th 2012, 06:29 PM
Being raised in that environment I was raised in and the work I do in the entertainment industry...

They are quite counterfeit.
From what I have seen they are nothing more than a learned act.
They are a source of confusion, they in no way enhance growth in the spiritual life.
God is not the author of confusion, tongues today are the very essence of confusion,.
You are both right and wrong. First, I've been in services that were obviously fleshly. One time, at a Friday night service at a Church on the Rock in Dallas, some dude in a purple zoot suit was preaching and he told everyone to stand to their feet and to pray aloud. So we all did. After a few minutes of this, he yelled, "now switch to your prayer language!" A woman behind me started into this 'bah bah bah bahlooo, bah bah bah bahlooo" and clamped her hand tightly on my shoulder. Having been raised in the Churches of Christ, this was all very unsettling to me. I silently prayed, "Father, if that is a demon, please make it stop." Instantly the woman's hand literally flew off my shoulder. I turned to see her wide-eyed and trying to speak but unable to do so...and I left right then.

However, I know a small handful of folks who regularly minister outside the US, but speak only English. When they preach to foreigners who don't know English, the foreigners hear in their native languages. How does this NOT glorify the Lord? How can this possibly be counterfeit?

blessings,

Watchman :)

Slug1
Apr 10th 2012, 06:34 PM
To me you are squirming again. You are welcomed to your opinion, believe me, I don't squirm and you can ask anyone on this site about that ;)


Tongues has always been a issue of confusion, not glory.If used as the Corinthians used this gift of the Holy Spirit, sure. If faked, sure. However, I'm not talking about fake tongues, but REAL tongues which even the Corinthians used incorrectly so, I agree with you. Is this the 6th time I've agreed with you now?



Why is it that tongues bring glory, but yet other gifts do not.Any manifestation of the Holy Spirit is glory to God. Man is who makes a s/w/m either confusing (by exercising them wrong as the Corinthians did), or NOT glorifying to God by not accepting them.

For example... if God manifested any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in your church, are you gonna accept God's move in POWER or are you gonna continue as you have throughout this thread and say... NOT NEEDED? If you would continue as you have throughout this thread, then NO, the s/w/m is not glorifying to God IN YOUR HEART.

So then... why would He contemplate using you as a servant to move in the power of the Holy Spirit and do a s/w/m?? As I said, it won't be FOR you but for someone else. First God needs a servant in obedience for Him to move in power, through. Any who believe can be of use... cept those who say, "NO, my faith don't need a s/w/m".


I am not coming to the same conclusion as you on this.
To me you seem mislead.At least I only "seem" to be misled in your eyes. Some say I AM misled because I tell them the truth of the scriptures in the proper context and they REFUSE to move away and separate themselves from their personal doctrines.

As a matter of fact, 6 years ago I said the EXACT same thing to those talking with me the way I'm talking with you. Cept what I said was exactly what you are saying and what I was listening to back then, is what I'm saying to you know.

God had to change me and it took... Him moving in power after I reached a point of surrender where I'd accept a s/w/m done in my presence and into my life. The only part of "me" in all this was me surrendering and seeking God. He did the rest and when the change of heart happened... my life has never been the same since.

I encourage you to do a study of the Matthew 16 scriptures... if you pursue them seeking God's truth, you will see that to seek a s/w/m is NOT wicked at all. What the Pharisee's and those with them were seeking (a s/w/m to PIN evidence AGAINST Jesus), this was what Jesus called... WICKED!

If you look in any study Bible concerning these very scriptures... it will be laid right out for you to either accept (and you change your stance) or continue to ignore (remain in your stance) and stick with your incorrect usage of those scriptures and use them AGAINST God when He's manifesting s/w/m through servants today.

Slug1
Apr 10th 2012, 06:52 PM
You are both right and wrong. First, I've been in services that were obviously fleshly. One time, at a Friday night service at a Church on the Rock in Dallas, some dude in a purple zoot suit was preaching and he told everyone to stand to their feet and to pray aloud. So we all did. After a few minutes of this, he yelled, "now switch to your prayer language!" A woman behind me started into this 'bah bah bah bahlooo, bah bah bah bahlooo" and clamped her hand tightly on my shoulder. Having been raised in the Churches of Christ, this was all very unsettling to me. I silently prayed, "Father, if that is a demon, please make it stop." Instantly the woman's hand literally flew off my shoulder. I turned to see her wide-eyed and trying to speak but unable to do so...and I left right then.

However, I know a small handful of folks who regularly minister outside the US, but speak only English. When they preach to foreigners who don't know English, the foreigners hear in their native languages. How does this NOT glorify the Lord? How can this possibly be counterfeit?

blessings,

Watchman :)Hooah... be bold and walk into a psychic fair and shut off demons words and sever the connections that "psychics" have with these demons.

Some Christian's seriously don't have a clue concerning the forces of darkness in both the world AND the Body of Christ. Yes, shut of the words of a "prophet" of "god" prophesying... demons are at work deep in the Body of Christ and causing MUCH of the confusion that Colight is talking about. The problem is that Colight don't see the connection that God still DOES glorify Himself. All Colight focuses on, is the false supernatural manifestations (demons) or the FAKING of manifestations, nothing supernatural AT ALL... just man.

Colight won't even see that the Corinthians WERE manifesting the gifts of the Holy Spirit but without LOVE and in an UNdiscipled manner. Thus my question, if he'd be willing to HELP those today acting LIKE the Corinthians were back then causing nothing but confusion.

So in the Body of Christ there are some problems...

1) Christians undiscipled in the exercising of proper tongues. (they need to be discipled)

2) Demons providing empowerment on a supernatural level (as you experienced).

3) Christians simply faking (their own ability).

4) Some Christians pointing at 1-3 and saying, God don't NEED to do s/w/m.

divaD
Apr 10th 2012, 08:55 PM
As a matter of fact, 6 years ago I said the EXACT same thing to those talking with me the way I'm talking with you. .



Do you have any links to any of these earlier posts? I would love to read some of them, then try and determine when exactly you did a 360. Mostly out of curiosity tho, and not to try to pit your past against you. Did it happen overnight when you finally changed your mind? Or were you still fighting it, yet slowly changing your mind all the while? Ironically, I did the exact opposite. In the 80s I would have been where you are today. But now I'm where you were yesterday, meaning before you changed your mind, and you're where I was in the 80s before I changed my mind in the 90s.

Slug1
Apr 10th 2012, 09:05 PM
Do you have any links to any of these earlier posts? I would love to read some of them, then try and determine when exactly you did a 360. Mostly out of curiosity tho, and not to try to pit your past against you. Did it happen overnight when you finally changed your mind? Or were you still fighting it, yet slowly changing your mind all the while? Ironically, I did the exact opposite. In the 80s I would have been where you are today. But now I'm where you were yesterday, meaning before you changed your mind, and you're where I was in the 80s before I changed my mind in the 90s.See post #59 >>Click (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/148232-quot-Speaking-In-Tongues-quot-shall-cease?p=2831649#post2831649)<<

This is a very brief testimony.

divaD
Apr 10th 2012, 09:17 PM
I've also experience false tongues as you described in your post

How exactly did you determine they were false tongues? I mean...if there's false tongues among legit tongues, then how can one actually discern the difference? With this in mind, I don't think I recall this being a problem 2000 years ago, where there was false tongues among legit tongues. So when in church history did these false tongues start becoming an issue?

Saved7
Apr 10th 2012, 11:58 PM
1 Cor 14:21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(of Israel); and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The purpose of tongues was a sign to the UNBELIEVING JEWS of upcoming destruction and discipline.
.

Hm, interesting I don't see where it states that tongues was a sign limited to the unbelieving Jews. All I see there is it is a sign to the unbelieving. I see now where you get your doctrine, you imagine words that are not there.

Saved7
Apr 11th 2012, 12:05 AM
slug1



Here goes,.
You will not like what I state..

Being raised in that environment I was raised in and the work I do in the entertainment industry...
Is this supposed to impress us, not sure why you would include this otherwise.


They are quite counterfeit.

Yup, most of the tongues I've heard speak are indeed counterfeit. HOwever, I've heard BOTH false and real tongues. The real tongues I've heard I was able to interpret and though I was not the one to speak and do the interpretting (I was new and didn't know what to do), the message was well received and many got saved that day. The story of someone I went to Church with who had never spoken in tongues and didn't know if it was even real found himself speaking in tongues in a foreign country to reach a lost soul. That person and those listening got saved.



From what I have seen they are nothing more than a learned act.
They are a source of confusion, they in no way enhance growth in the spiritual life.
God is not the author of confusion, tongues today are the very essence of confusion,.




Yup, fake tongues is a learned act and a source of confusion...but REAL TONGUES is not. But since you've never been exposed to real tongues that must mean it's not real. Guess Jesus isn't real either, since those who don't believe say it's all a bunch of lies....what they say must be true too because they've never had an encounter with Jesus, therefore, guess we're all out of luck when it comes to eternity.:rolleyes:

Mark2012
Apr 11th 2012, 12:38 AM
Is this supposed to impress us, not sure why you would include this otherwise.



Yup, most of the tongues I've heard speak are indeed counterfeit. HOwever, I've heard BOTH false and real tongues. The real tongues I've heard I was able to interpret and though I was not the one to speak and do the interpretting (I was new and didn't know what to do), the message was well received and many got saved that day. The story of someone I went to Church with who had never spoken in tongues and didn't know if it was even real found himself speaking in tongues in a foreign country to reach a lost soul. That person and those listening got saved.


Someone in a foreign country spoke in an actual language they had never learned? People actually understood what he was saying?

Watchman
Apr 11th 2012, 01:14 AM
Someone in a foreign country spoke in an actual language they had never learned? People actually understood what he was saying?
Yes. I related about this, too...but a different person, I'm sure. (Unless Saved7 and I know each other and don't know it!) :D

W :)

divaD
Apr 11th 2012, 01:54 AM
Yes. I related about this, too...but a different person, I'm sure. (Unless Saved7 and I know each other and don't know it!) :D

W :)



I recall reading that earlier. If I recall, the language was Spanish, except your friend knows no Spanish. What puzzles me then, they understood your friend, so how then did your friend understand them and know that they understood him? Wouldn't that have to mean they too spoke in tongues back to your friend, but that they were speaking English that they didn't know, the same way he was speaking Spanish that he didn't know? Or perhaps they were bilingual? If so, why not just speak to them in English? I'm just trying to determine if it fits with the account recorded in Acts 2.

When I was a Charismatic in the 80s, I used to speak in tongues all the time. Don't ever recall it sounding like any discernible human language tho, nor anyone ever understanding a single word I spoke, including myself..

Watchman
Apr 11th 2012, 01:58 AM
I recall reading that earlier. If I recall, the language was Spanish, except your friend knows no Spanish. What puzzles me then, they understood your friend, so how then did your friend understand them and know that they understood him? Wouldn't that have to mean they too spoke in tongues back to your friend, but that they were speaking English that they didn't know, the same way he was speaking Spanish that he didn't know? Or perhaps they were bilingual? If so, why not just speak to them in English? I'm just trying to determine if it fits with the account recorded in Acts 2.

When I was a Charismatic in the 80s, I used to speak in tongues all the time. Don't ever recall it sounding like any discernible human language tho, nor anyone ever understanding a single word I spoke, including myself..
Charlie hired a translator the first time he went. After he spoke for awhile, the people started raising their hands, smiling, and speaking in spanish. He didn't understand them and the translator had said nothing. He asked the translator if he was going to translate the first part of the message and the translator told him there was no need because they've understood you and are praising God for what has been said. These people knew no english, and Charlie knew no spanish.

W :)

Slug1
Apr 11th 2012, 02:23 AM
I recall reading that earlier. If I recall, the language was Spanish, except your friend knows no Spanish. What puzzles me then, they understood your friend, so how then did your friend understand them and know that they understood him? Wouldn't that have to mean they too spoke in tongues back to your friend, but that they were speaking English that they didn't know, the same way he was speaking Spanish that he didn't know? Or perhaps they were bilingual? If so, why not just speak to them in English? I'm just trying to determine if it fits with the account recorded in Acts 2.

When I was a Charismatic in the 80s, I used to speak in tongues all the time. Don't ever recall it sounding like any discernible human language tho, nor anyone ever understanding a single word I spoke, including myself..

Read the scripture describing the gift:

1 Cor 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

See what I underlined... too many Christians ignore that word.

Through the scriptures we find one kind that the Corinthians are abusing. This is a "kind" of tongues that also requires the gift of interpretation if listeners are to be edified. Otherwise, if no interpretation is manifested, then the person speaking in tongues is to do it quietly ONLY to themselves (1 Cor 14:28) and NOT to be crying out in tongues that does nothing but cause problems because this is UNloving as Paul was stressing to the Corinthians. It caused confusion and problems back then, same today.

This is the kind that is more common throughout the Body of Christ because the purpose for these tongues are for edification. Either for the speaker only (no interpretation) or for a church body (with interpretation).

The other "kind" of tongues is the kind scripture shows us in Acts 2. This is when a person speaks in their native language and the Holy Spirit enables all the listeners to hear the speaking in "their" native language. As both Watchman and Saved7 have talked about and I did as well. If a speaker is speaking in English and there are a Russian, a Chinese, and an Arab standing next to each other... the Russian hears the speaker in Russian, while the respective others, in Chinese and Arabic. The three may be confused as those listening to Peter and all the others from the upper room were confused and Peter had to explain to them what was happening.

This is the kind specifically for witnessing purpose in spreading the Gospel to others. While not as common within the Body of Christ (since the Gospel has already been received) this is more common out there in the world where the Gospel is brought to people who speak other languages and God empowers speakers to speak to anyone.

These two examples in scripture is what is meant by verse 10 of 1 Cor 12... different kindS of tongues!

So you see that tongues can be confusing until proper understanding is given and proper exercising is done (discipleship).

I'll answer your other question later... concerning when false tongues began to show up.

I will say this... the key to always keep is that UNLESS God has continued signs/wonders/miracles, then the devil can't do false s/w/m without INSTANTLY exposing himself as the source of supernatural manifestations. IOWs, if God has stopped ALL s/w/m, then ANY and ALL supernatural occurrences that are happening all over the world today throughout the Body of Christ can ONLY be sourced to satan... now, DOES THAT truly make any sense?

ESPECIALLY if tongues are utilized to bring the Gospel to people out there in the world? The Gospel is being spoken by a pastor in English and all listening in a remote tribe located in an uncharted portion of the world and the listeners are hearing the speaker in "their native" language AS the speaker is speaking English... they receive the Gospel in their hearts and accept Jesus. To say that satan is imitating this sign/wonder... ummmmm, I don't know WHAT to make of a Christian who would say it's counterfeit when the fruit of such a manifestation of tongues is MORE people accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior.

For such Christians who would INSIST it's counterfeit, I will say this... they are standing on the line of blasphemy and I will actually say some have crossed based on their fruit in speaking out against the Holy Spirit in the way that they do.

Colight
Apr 11th 2012, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by Saved7;Yup, most of the tongues I've heard speak are indeed counterfeit. HOwever, I've heard BOTH false and real tongues. The real tongues I've heard I was able to interpret and though I was not the one to speak and do the interpretting (I was new and didn't know what to do), the message was well received and many got saved that day. The story of someone I went to Church with who had never spoken in tongues and didn't know if it was even real found himself speaking in tongues in a foreign country to reach a lost soul. That person and those listening got saved.

Yeah I am sure many was saved..cant dare be critical of any thing that people claims saves a lot of people.

Why was they saved?
What did they believe in?
What was the message that day?

Does any know that?
I find the whole story suspect, it does not require any proof, yet you are anti God if you find it suspect.





Yup, fake tongues is a learned act and a source of confusion...but REAL TONGUES is not. But since you've never been exposed to real tongues that must mean it's not real. Guess Jesus isn't real either, since those who don't believe say it's all a bunch of lies....what they say must be true too because they've never had an encounter with Jesus, therefore, guess we're all out of luck when it comes to eternity.http://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Now tongues is on the same doctrinal level as Christ.
A minor temporary gift is now as of the same great importance as Christ.
Do you find any error to have that attitude?

Colight
Apr 11th 2012, 02:52 AM
Charlie hired a translator the first time he went. After he spoke for awhile, the people started raising their hands, smiling, and speaking in spanish. He didn't understand them and the translator had said nothing. He asked the translator if he was going to translate the first part of the message and the translator told him there was no need because they've understood you and are praising God for what has been said. These people knew no english, and Charlie knew no spanish.

W :)
Not to be the wet blanket on such a warm story...
However reality is different.
Being in Spanish countries many times. Peru, Columbia, Mexico, Costa Rica..etc..
They know a lot of English.
I have been very remote, even there they know English, because many of them have worked in the USA.

RandyHJ
Apr 11th 2012, 02:53 AM
Exactly but this passage even tells more it says shall cease not that you need to put more attention on love and the gifts will still be there no it says cease which means they will stop. The problem is that people that are today hung up on all the emotions of these gifts do not belive Gods word when he says they shall stop. These gifts were gifts given to the early church. All prophecy has been written in Gods book theHoly Bible..people today that say they speak in tongues and give new prophecy are not of God but are being tricked by Satan. Paul new this would happen that is why the passage is there telling us about these very gifts. Everything we need to know is complete and written in Gods word .
God Bless
Randy

They were not given to the "early" church (that is our term, not God's). They were given to THE Church because they are manifestations of the Holy Spirit who was given to THE Church and who is still with us. These are not "gifts" seperate from the Holy Spirit Himself, they are manifestations of His presence and His power, and He is still with us and still manifests Himself among us. The New Testament was not given to us to "replace" the Holy Spirit. The New Testament was given to us so that we would have a standard by which we can test and judge the spirits to see whether they are from God. The Scripture itself does not say, "Those who read the Bible are the sons of God", rather it says, "Those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God". God's intention is for each one of us to have an interaction with the Holy Spirit in daily lives. God isn't dealing with us from a distance through a book, He is dealing with us in Person, that is, in the Person of the Holy Spirit. We need to stop being afraid of the Holy Spirit and having more faith in the demonic than we do in the Divine.

Colight
Apr 11th 2012, 02:58 AM
Hm, interesting I don't see where it states that tongues was a sign limited to the unbelieving Jews. All I see there is it is a sign to the unbelieving. I see now where you get your doctrine, you imagine words that are not there.



When Paul states it is written in the LAW..

Who did God give the law to ?

1 Cor 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(of Israel);.....
Paul was referencing...
Isaiah 28:11 - For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Care to take back that snide remark now?

Colight
Apr 11th 2012, 03:25 AM
Slug1
Can you define s/w/m.. somewhere that came in and I missed the reference.




Any manifestation of the Holy Spirit is glory to God. Man is who makes a s/w/m either confusing (by exercising them wrong as the Corinthians did), or NOT glorifying to God by not accepting them.

For example... if God manifested any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in your church, are you gonna accept God's move in POWER or are you gonna continue as you have throughout this thread and say... NOT NEEDED? If you would continue as you have throughout this thread, then NO, the s/w/m is not glorifying to God IN YOUR HEART.

So then... why would He contemplate using you as a servant to move in the power of the Holy Spirit and do a s/w/m?? As I said, it won't be FOR you but for someone else. First God needs a servant in obedience for Him to move in power, through. Any who believe can be of use... cept those who say, "NO, my faith don't need a s/w/m".

There are gifts that are active for the Church of today, Pastor teacher, Gift of helps, Administrator gifts,.

The position I have is That Tongues have ceased as of 70 ad, The gifts of Prophecy and knowledge ended as of 97 ad when the Bible was finished.


At least I only "seem" to be misled in your eyes. Some say I AM misled because I tell them the truth of the scriptures in the proper context and they REFUSE to move away and separate themselves from their personal doctrines.

As a matter of fact, 6 years ago I said the EXACT same thing to those talking with me the way I'm talking with you. Cept what I said was exactly what you are saying and what I was listening to back then, is what I'm saying to you know.

God had to change me and it took... Him moving in power after I reached a point of surrender where I'd accept a s/w/m done in my presence and into my life. The only part of "me" in all this was me surrendering and seeking God. He did the rest and when the change of heart happened... my life has never been the same since.

I encourage you to do a study of the Matthew 16 scriptures... if you pursue them seeking God's truth, you will see that to seek a s/w/m is NOT wicked at all. What the Pharisee's and those with them were seeking (a s/w/m to PIN evidence AGAINST Jesus), this was what Jesus called... WICKED!

If you look in any study Bible concerning these very scriptures... it will be laid right out for you to either accept (and you change your stance) or continue to ignore (remain in your stance) and stick with your incorrect usage of those scriptures and use them AGAINST God when He's manifesting s/w/m through servants today.

If you recall Satan knows scripture very well, he even used it to tempt Christ.

Matt 4
5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Satan is very quick to distort, with lies and false teaching .

Behind scripture is Doctrine or lessons that we are to live by.
The bible is VERY strong on how we should be on doctrine.

It should be sound, uncorrupted, and serious...

Titus 2:7
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

We are not to be carried back and forth, like a drunk staggering or a ship in a storm.

Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

You position is not really meshing with sound doctrine.
There is a lot of emotional pleading as to why I need to accept it.
A lot of real life stories,

But there is not any doctrinal foundation for it.
This is why I am not accepting it.

Slug1
Apr 11th 2012, 03:32 AM
Slug1
Can you define s/w/m.. somewhere that came in and I missed the reference. Signs/Wonders/Miracles




There are gifts that are active for the Church of today, Pastor teacher, Gift of helps, Administrator gifts,.I agree with this as well.


The position I have is That Tongues have ceased as of 70 ad, The gifts of Prophecy and knowledge ended as of 97 ad when the Bible was finished.I cannot agree with this. Paul states:

1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

This is when these specific s/w will end... ONCE the "perfect" has returned and we are face to face with the perfect. Jesus has not returned yet, we are not face to face with Him yet. The perfect cannot be the Bible because "who" we will be face to face with as Paul describes AS the "perfect"... KNOWS us (//...as I also am known.).

Slug1
Apr 11th 2012, 03:53 AM
They were not given to the "early" church (that is our term, not God's). They were given to THE Church because they are manifestations of the Holy Spirit who was given to THE Church and who is still with us. These are not "gifts" seperate from the Holy Spirit Himself, they are manifestations of His presence and His power, and He is still with us and still manifests Himself among us. The New Testament was not given to us to "replace" the Holy Spirit. The New Testament was given to us so that we would have a standard by which we can test and judge the spirits to see whether they are from God. The Scripture itself does not say, "Those who read the Bible are the sons of God", rather it says, "Those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God". God's intention is for each one of us to have an interaction with the Holy Spirit in daily lives. God isn't dealing with us from a distance through a book, He is dealing with us in Person, that is, in the Person of the Holy Spirit. We need to stop being afraid of the Holy Spirit and having more faith in the demonic than we do in the Divine.Amen... repping you!

I like the way you put it in your post as in knowing "about" God (those who read the Bible) compared to those who KNOW God (those led by the Holy Spirit). Hooah!!!

I know a person who was a cessationist until someone simply made this statement: "The power of the Holy Spirit is NOT only between the covers of the Bible." This simple statement convicted the man and since then, this man has operated in the power of the Holy Spirit in a healing ministry. Not possible until his heart (beliefs in the truth of scriptures) was changed and the Holy Spirit used that simple statement to literally tear down the cessationist belief (doctrine) that he was bound up in.

satan has been imitating God since waaaayyyy back. Take Moses when he tossed down the staff and it became a snake, the sorcerers of the Pharaoh did the same. We see what happened though... God's snake (sign/wonder) ate all the counterfeit snakes (false signs/wonders).

The problem today is many Christians will only "see" the counterfeit (false) signs/wonders even when the REAL signs/wonders are happening also. Such Christians can't even discern the real from the counterfeit... so ALL are counterfeit to them.

I agree... Paul began to disciple the Corinthians in that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are FOR the Body of Christ. Only MAN has added the "early church" belief to this... not God. This is how man had twisted God's truth to fit their desire to understand... that s/w/m are only for the "early" church. God was clear when He gave Paul the mission to disciple the Corinthians... the gifts are for the ENTIRE Body of Christ, BOTH Jew and Gentile who make up the entire Body of Christ.

Another twist of the scriptures... many say the unbelievers in 1 Cor 14:22-25 are ONLY Jews. Whelp, we have to take into account that Corinth is in the region of Greece and this "church" is made up of both Jew and Gentiles. So who are the "unbelievers"?? BOTH Jews and Gentiles are in the church at Corinth manifesting the Gift of Tongues but were exercising this gift in an UNdisciplined manner (amongst a TON more mistakes they were making as well).

But specifically concerning this topic of the Gift of Tongues (or any of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit) Paul established that the gifts are for the ENTIRE Body of Christ. The Bible establishes (in context) that the ENTIRE Body of Christ are both Jews and Gentiles. This was completely IN EFFECT at Corinth.

So to twist those scriptures into meaning that signs/wonders/miracles are ONLY for Jews... is really a MAJOR twisting of the scriptures to fit what MAN chooses to believe as truth OVER the true meaning, that God intends.

Colight
Apr 11th 2012, 05:05 AM
ONCE the "perfect" has returned and we are face to face with the perfect. Jesus has not returned yet, we are not face to face with Him yet. The perfect cannot be the Bible because "who" we will be face to face with as Paul describes AS the "perfect"... KNOWS us

The Perfect is gender neutral, Christ is gender male.
Therefore the perfect reefers to a gender neutral object.
Paul is using the mirror object to describe how good the images is ( remember in those days they did not have the fine mirrors we have today) They was blurry, when the perfect was complete the images will be clear, as clear as seeing some one face to face. It is obvious he is talking of a metaphor thru that whole verse passage. Since you have taken my potion before( As you stated), you should have known that one.

Slug1
Apr 11th 2012, 05:48 AM
Do you have any links to any of these earlier posts? I would love to read some of them, then try and determine when exactly you did a 360. Mostly out of curiosity tho, and not to try to pit your past against you. Did it happen overnight when you finally changed your mind? Or were you still fighting it, yet slowly changing your mind all the while? Ironically, I did the exact opposite. In the 80s I would have been where you are today. But now I'm where you were yesterday, meaning before you changed your mind, and you're where I was in the 80s before I changed my mind in the 90s.


See post #59 >>Click (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/148232-quot-Speaking-In-Tongues-quot-shall-cease?p=2831649#post2831649)<<

This is a very brief testimony.

OK... in doing some investigating. At the bottom of this thread is a link to a thread titled: The "faith" of Speaking in Tongues". This thread, you will see that I made no posts in this thread. I was in the process of surrender to God and He was preparing me for the day I'd witness (in person and experiencing the POWER of the Holy Spirit manifest in my presence) some speaking in tongues, and interpretation edified me (and my wife).

Here is a thread I posted in the day AFTER this experience: >>Click (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/90819-Is-Speaking-in-Tongues-Essential-for-Salvation)<< (hmmmm, maybe the surrendering was longer than a year... I know it began about the beginning of 2006)

As for threads where I was completely AGAINST tongues due to what I witnessed on TV, vids, whatever and only drove me deeper into the cessationist bondage (due to this bondage I AVOIDED ALL churches or Christians who allowed the Holy Spirit the freedom to manifest in power and in so doing this, satan was always leading me to view vids and TV where he was moving people in counterfeit or faking tongues)... I don't think they are on the open board. Most were closed back then or many of my posts were deleted by the Mods anyway. The bondage made me a very ugly person as I treated any who allowed the Holy Spirit the freedom to use them as vessels, as a BUNCH OF NUT CASES. So many posts were deleted due to my "ugly" comments and attitude back then.

divaD
Apr 11th 2012, 01:21 PM
Here is a thread I posted in the day AFTER this experience: >>Click<< (hmmmm, maybe the surrendering was longer than a year... I know it began about the beginning of 2006)

Thanks. I just browsed thru that thread. Post #33 seems to be when you say you experienced someone speaking in tongues for the first time in person and not on tv. It's ironic how you mentioned you were only familiar with tongues via tv. In the 80s, that's how I was tirst familiar with tongues myself. Especially via Robert Tilton. He was my hero back then, so to speak. I was convinced there was no greater man of God on the planet, well until I started watching Benny Hinn. Man was I naive back in those days, in regards to these folks on tv. As far as these days tho, I don't watch any religious programming on tv anymore.

As to that thread you provided a link to, I was going to also read what the starter of that thread had to say, but he was too long winded for my tastes.

Watchman
Apr 11th 2012, 01:39 PM
Charlie hired a translator the first time he went. After he spoke for awhile, the people started raising their hands, smiling, and speaking in spanish. He didn't understand them and the translator had said nothing. He asked the translator if he was going to translate the first part of the message and the translator told him there was no need because they've understood you and are praising God for what has been said. These people knew no english, and Charlie knew no spanish.

W :)

Not to be the wet blanket on such a warm story...
However reality is different.
Being in Spanish countries many times. Peru, Columbia, Mexico, Costa Rica..etc..
They know a lot of English.
I have been very remote, even there they know English, because many of them have worked in the USA.
It is irrelevant where you've been with regard to this true story. These people did not know english...the speaker does not know spanish. That is a fact in this case. That is not to say that some might know a few words of english, or that Charlie might know a few spanish words. But the entire message was heard and received and it was of God. You cannot honestly dispute that with any sort of credibility. Now, if remaining for you is questioning my veracity, that of my sources, or that of the other posters in this thread, then kindly bow out of this discussion, because you have nothing of edifying value to offer. Barbs and jabs have no place here. You have failed to prove your exegesis of the passages referenced by yourself, which transforms it to eisegesis--and that is the equivalent of putting words in our Father's mouth. :no: :thumbsdn:

Tongues were given to all...not just for the Jews. Paul plainly stated that tongues are a sign for unbelievers in 1 Corinthians 14:22. Yes, they started as a sign for the Jews; however, once the Gentiles began to receive Christ, and Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles specifically, tongues became a sign for any who did not and do not believe. This, too, is a fact in this discussion. You're playing prooftext poker by taking a single verse and camping on it. Your hermeneutic is absolutely flawed.

blessings,

Andy :)

PS: Since the tone of this post cannot be adequately perceived in this medium, I will add that I'm not angry or upset...just being straightforward.

Colight
Apr 11th 2012, 02:31 PM
It is irrelevant where you've been with regard to this true story. These people did not know english...the speaker does not know spanish. That is a fact in this case. That is not to say that some might know a few words of english, or that Charlie might know a few spanish words. But the entire message was heard and received and it was of God. You cannot honestly dispute that with any sort of credibility.

Sorry but I can,
I have spent months perhaps years in Spanish countries, English is quite wide spread.
To say it is not, means frankly you and not familiar with the area and willing to believe any warm stories that comes down the pike.


Now, if remaining for you is questioning my veracity, that of my sources, or that of the other posters in this thread, then kindly bow out of this discussion, because you have nothing of edifying value to offer.

Truth is quite edifying, frankly it is a lie to state that English is not wide spread in Spanish countries.
Many of the road signs are in English as is restaurant menus news papers there is s a huge push in the school to learn English so they can go to Gringo land and make lots of Yankee Dollars.

Also keep in note that when workers return from the USA they know English and teach others English.

And there are perhaps thousands if not tens of thousands of American jobs in Mexico and other Latin Countries many of these jobs require a familiarity of the English language.

Many older Americans retire to Latin countries to have their retirement money spread out longer they hire nannies, House keepers, drivers, and security personal. Not to mention the tourists, many English people I have encountered in Latin countries know little Spanish, yet they are hiking across country staying in Hostels and motels, to get in tune with local culture.

Exactly what Latin countries have you spent time in?


Barbs and jabs have no place here. You have failed to prove your exegesis of the passages referenced by yourself, which transforms it to eisegesis--and that is the equivalent of putting words in our Father's mouth.

Questioning the validity of no one in a Spanish country knowing English is not a barb or job, especially when I have been there and seen wide spread English use. Again that does not make a nice warm little testimony, but it gets down to the truth. We are not to be slaves to warm emotional stories we are to seek and love truth.



Tongues were given to all...not just for the Jews. Paul plainly stated that tongues are a sign for unbelievers in 1 Corinthians 14:22. Yes, they started as a sign for the Jews; however, once the Gentiles began to receive Christ, and Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles specifically, tongues became a sign for any who did not and do not believe. This, too, is a fact in this discussion. You're playing prooftext poker by taking a single verse and camping on it. Your hermeneutic is absolutely flawed.

Yes it is limited amount on tongues because it was such a small gift in both time it was used and who it was meant to minister too.
You figure if it was SUCH as great a gift as you are making it out to be they would have spent more time discussing it. It was a temporary gift, that had faded by 70ad, there fore not much time was spent on it. Even Paul stated they would CEASE, thru their USE they brought about their own stillness.
What is being added to scripture is when you say they started out as a sign, but now we still need them, that IS NOT in scripture.
Paul him self stated

1 Cor 14:19
14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Paul him self stated that tongues are 2000 times inferior to sound teaching, so why focus on trying to duplicate something that is so inferior to sound teaching? We have the complete Bible now.. They didnt.. The Complete is here... tongues are not.

Watchman
Apr 11th 2012, 03:16 PM
Sorry but I can,
I have spent months perhaps years in Spanish countries, English is quite wide spread.
To say it is not, means frankly you and not familiar with the area and willing to believe any warm stories that comes down the pike.
You are entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is. I'll not argue with you about this. It happened exactly as related. End of discussion.



Truth is quite edifying, frankly it is a lie to state that English is not wide spread in Spanish countries.
Many of the road signs are in English as is restaurant menus news papers there is s a huge push in the school to learn English so they can go to Gringo land and make lots of Yankee Dollars.

Also keep in note that when workers return from the USA they know English and teach others English.

And there are perhaps thousands if not tens of thousands of American jobs in Mexico and other Latin Countries many of these jobs require a familiarity of the English language.

Many older Americans retire to Latin countries to have their retirement money spread out longer they hire nannies, House keepers, drivers, and security personal. Not to mention the tourists, many English people I have encountered in Latin countries know little Spanish, yet they are hiking across country staying in Hostels and motels, to get in tune with local culture.

Exactly what Latin countries have you spent time in?
I have spent considerable time in Mexico...which is the country referenced above. As I said, end of discussion.


You figure if it was SUCH as great a gift as you are making it out to be they would have spent more time discussing it. It was a temporary gift, that had faded by 70ad, there fore not much time was spent on it. Even Paul stated they would CEASE, thru their USE they brought about their own stillness. What is being added to scripture is when you say they started out as a sign, but now we still need them, that IS NOT in scripture. Paul him self stated

1 Cor 14:19
14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Paul him self stated that tongues are 2000 times inferior to sound teaching, so why focus on trying to duplicate something that is so inferior to sound teaching? We have the complete Bible now.. They didnt.. The Complete is here... tongues are not.
Nobody is promoting tongues as being a great sign. I agree with Paul. Prophecy is always better...which is my gifting. The complete being the Bible is the weakest interpretation imaginable...even weaker than the gender argument about perfect being neuter and Jesus being masculine...because there are exceptions to that 'rule' found in the NT. It's off-topic to continue this part here, so another thread is forthcoming! :D

blessings,

W :)

Colight
Apr 11th 2012, 03:39 PM
Watchman
The complete being the Bible is the weakest interpretation imaginable...even weaker than the gender argument about perfect being neuter and Jesus being masculine...because there are exceptions to that 'rule' found in the NT. It's off-topic to continue this part here, so another thread is forthcoming!

The Fact is.... we have the BIBLE, they didn't.
All the prophecy and knowledge that we need to know is complete in the Bible.
What do we need to know that is not contained in it?
We have everything needed to reach the spiritual maturity.

It is the complete. As Paul stated...
1 cor 13
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child(Tongues), think like a child( gift of prophesy) , reason like a child( gift of knowledge); when I became a man, I did away with childish things.


With the Bible here the life of acting like a Child has come to a end.
Therefore tongues , gift of prophesy, gift of knowledge.. are all compared to being Childish, Immature.

Even Paul stated the Corinth Congregation was babies, when it came to spiritual matters.. ( 1 cor 3:1)
And they had legit tongues as a gift.
Why would you want to act like a bunch of babies?
( this is the bible speaking here, Paul used the word child.. not me.. if it offends take it up with Paul.)
Why would you want to strive to stay in Child hood, when we have access to full maturity?

Think it is time to grow up ( In a spiritual sense)?

Watchman
Apr 11th 2012, 03:48 PM
:OFFT: There is now a thread on this topic, sir.

W :)

Slug1
Apr 11th 2012, 08:44 PM
Even Paul stated the Corinth Congregation was babies, when it came to spiritual matters.. ( 1 cor 3:1)
And they had legit tongues as a gift.
Why would you want to act like a bunch of babies?
( this is the bible speaking here, Paul used the word child.. not me.. if it offends take it up with Paul.)
Why would you want to strive to stay in Child hood, when we have access to full maturity?

Think it is time to grow up ( In a spiritual sense)?Context, Context, Context!!!

If your conclusion of 1 Cor 3:1 is correct, then why does Paul CONCLUDE his entire discipling of the Corinthians of PROPER usage and orderly exercising of the Gift of speaking in different kinds of tongues as this?

1 Cor 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.[e]

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

If what you state is accurate, then why does Paul conclude the EXACT opposite as you would? Paul is NOT telling the Corinthians it is childish to speak in tongues. All the way back in 1 Cor 3, the proper context is Paul telling the Corinthians they are childish due to NOT having the mind of Christ at the moment (read scriptures before and after 1 Cor 3:1). Thus another reason why Paul had to go to Corinth and knock some sense into their heads through proper discipleship and learning.

So... we all have the choice to say NO to the Holy Spirit, in so doing... we have also chosen to be ignorant. We are told to LET them be ignorant, hard to do sometimes when all one has to do is offer help as Paul does.

You see the problem with your understanding is all about what I mentioned earlier in a post. If you are in a church full of mature MEAT eating Christians and one day a person accepts Christ, they (the new Christian) is now as the Corinthians were... a babe.

Are a bunch of mature Christians gonna tell that babe to not speak in tongues if the Holy Spirit empowers them to speak in tongues? Now that is childish as well and not Christ minded. If the Holy Spirit is empowering and anyone says NO... not good.

If they do... they are acting far from mature, the fruit of telling ANY Christian NOT to speak in tongues if the Holy Spirit has gifted them with this specific gift is... ignorant.

Paul SPECIFICALLY said NOT to prevent Christians from speaking in tongues, what he instructed are commandments of the Lord.

Slug1
Apr 11th 2012, 08:49 PM
Thanks. I just browsed thru that thread. Post #33 seems to be when you say you experienced someone speaking in tongues for the first time in person and not on tv. It's ironic how you mentioned you were only familiar with tongues via tv. In the 80s, that's how I was tirst familiar with tongues myself. Especially via Robert Tilton. He was my hero back then, so to speak. I was convinced there was no greater man of God on the planet, well until I started watching Benny Hinn. Man was I naive back in those days, in regards to these folks on tv. As far as these days tho, I don't watch any religious programming on tv anymore.

As to that thread you provided a link to, I was going to also read what the starter of that thread had to say, but he was too long winded for my tastes.I wouldn't worry about the OP of that thread, old and the message of that OP was that IF a person doesn't speak in tongues, then they are NOT in Christ.

Another false doctrine.

I found it ironic that once God had freed me from the cessationist bondage, I find myself immediately in a discussion where the OPer is trying to tell us all that if we don't speak in tongues, we are not in Christ.

The enemy was trying to get some licks in... didn't work, I was free!

Colight
Apr 11th 2012, 11:07 PM
Context, Context, Context!!!

Paul SPECIFICALLY said NOT to prevent Christians from speaking in tongues, what he instructed are commandments of the Lord.

As you said..
CONTEXT!!!

in that day Tongues was active.
For Jerusalem had not be judged.

Today it is not.... for today is after the event that tongues was was the sign of.
That is context.

Slug1
Apr 11th 2012, 11:34 PM
As you said..
CONTEXT!!!

in that day Tongues was active.
For Jerusalem had not be judged.

Today it is not.... for today is after the event that tongues was was the sign of.
That is context.Then how are Christians still speaking in supernatural tongues today?

Not the fake ones you are taking about, not the imitation supernatural ones you say you witnessed in India. I'm talking about the tongues spoken by Christians, in the order that Paul gave as instruction, 2-3 speak in an unknown tongue by the power of the Holy Spirit and then 1 is empowered to interpret for the edification of all those listening whether it is a prophetic word, direction, correction (which is still edification), etc?

You see, you can say context and then drop in your opinion that tongues have ended but while you keep saying tongues have ended, Christians around you are being servants of God and allowing the Holy Spirit to freely moving in and through them and the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues is going on today, all around you.

Of course, satan is doing his work empowering counterfeit tongues, and/or he's just tempting Christians to "fake" it.

Think about this... if satan is the ONLY source of supernatural tongues (not the faked type, or learned), then why are we still warned in the Bible to "test" the spirits?

If the only spirit's empowering supernatural tongues were demonic, then why test? As I keep informing... if tongues ended, all tongues would do today is REVEAL satan is present.

Yet, God still glorifies Himself through ALL the gifts of the Holy Spirit to include all those three that you say are ended.

So... who/what/how are Christians empowered to speak supernaturally. Again, not fake tongues but supernatural type.

Also, you say it's a sign for only the Jews yet scripture doesn't say that. Cornelius was not a Jew yet he spoke in tongues. All those in Samaria when Philip preached, they were not ALL Jews yet they witnessed all the signs/wonders. Also, what did Simon SEE when the Holy Spirit fell upon all those Jews and Gentiles a couple days/weeks after they accepted Christ and had previously received their water baptism days/weeks before JOhn and Peter prayed over them? Also, those in Corinth are NOT ONLY Jews, yet not only do they (both Jew and Gentile) witness signs/wonders... they also DID them as regular members of the Body of Christ.

The context of the Bible, specially the NT and specifically the teaching that God gives to the Body of Christ through Paul shows us that the Body of Christ is BOTH Jew and Gentile. That there is NO difference and signs/wonders are FOR BOTH as we see in all the examples of scripture I just pointed out. Do I need to point out even more for you?

Saved7
Apr 12th 2012, 01:42 AM
When Paul states it is written in the LAW..

Who did God give the law to ?

1 Cor 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(of Israel);.....
Paul was referencing...
Isaiah 28:11 - For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Care to take back that snide remark now?

No, I don't. In fact I don't see that as a "limitation" on the gift. No where is there a statement that says all gifts, or tongues or any other gift were given only for a specific time period. If that were the case, then we have pastors and teachers operating in their own power, and not one of them has that gift. Because These things are gifts and callings, and if they continue then so do the rest. That comment about gifts ceasing, is about when that "perfect" which is the KINGDOM of God, it's not about the Bible, which we all know has flaws in it, or else we wouldn't snip and bite over which version is correct and we wouldn't notice little errors. No...that which is perfect is the literal setting up of the Kingdom in a physical way. After we have all been changed and given glorified bodies..that's the perfect that is to come. You're the one that keeps pointing out that it's gender neutral, don't you think that you may be missing another possible option, like that which I just spoke of. Love is one thing that will never cease, because it is always necessary, but tongues will not be needed in that Kingdom time.
But hey, if you want to keep disbelieving that we must get our power (the reason for the gifts) from God in order to serve Him, you go ahead. But know this, you are robbing yourself of a much greater blessing of walking in the spirit.

Saved7
Apr 12th 2012, 01:47 AM
Someone in a foreign country spoke in an actual language they had never learned? People actually understood what he was saying?

Yes, that's what it's for.:saint: (primarily)
Did you get my PM that I replied to you?

Saved7
Apr 12th 2012, 01:51 AM
Yes. I related about this, too...but a different person, I'm sure. (Unless Saved7 and I know each other and don't know it!) :D

W :)

I doubt it was the same person. He was sharing what happened on a first time mission trip, I can't remember the circumstances, something about getting directions through an interpreter, but something else happened, he spoke and another language came out.

Zack702
Apr 12th 2012, 01:56 AM
In context does this mean that it will fail in certain people?

Meaning certain people will not understand the gift of tounges and they will not be amazed at it. Or rather they would, while seeing it, not see it and instead believe it is fake. Or while others would see miracles yet they would think they also were faked. ect ect.

We know that miracles, tounges and prophecy can be faked. Or they could be by chance.

In other words these things are not the heart of the matter.

If you ever witnessed to someone over a long period of time you will know that love is all powerfull. Love is the way that is greater than all. Or if love fails then there is no hope. Miracles may fail. What if you saw a miracle and you didn't care ? Of course we all care since we are mostly christians or believers. But what about the people who see miracles and they still don't believe. These people are hard hearted. First soften there heart and then they can understand why they should believe.

Saved7
Apr 12th 2012, 02:21 AM
Yeah I am sure many was saved..cant dare be critical of any thing that people claims saves a lot of people.

Why was they saved?
What did they believe in?
What was the message that day?

Does any know that?



I honestly don't recall, though I'm certain it was the gospel....just don't recall the details is all.


I find the whole story suspect, it does not require any proof, yet you are anti God if you find it suspect.

Or could it be that you simply don't want to admit that you might be wrong and so you are letting pride get in your way of believing that God still works like this?








Now tongues is on the same doctrinal level as Christ.
A minor temporary gift is now as of the same great importance as Christ.
Do you find any error to have that attitude?

Nope, just showing you the logic that seems to permeate your posts. You have experienced or seen any real tongues, therefore, you reason within yourself that it no longer exists. People do the same thing with believing in God...they want proof or else they refuse to believe, or they've never gotten a selfish self serving prayer answered, there they reason there is no God. Is the same kind of logic, you are going by your own experience or lack thereof to determine a doctrine not found in the Bible unless you do a lot of twisting and denying. My point is this, you....YOU are not the be all to end all, you do not have all the answers, so turning to your logic when reading the Bible is what is hindering you from believing. When you have several people here who have testified the truth to you, yet you call us liars, our posts and stories suspect. Somehow you feel you are above us and can simply over rule anything we say, therefore in your mind that makes what you say true, and what we say false. It's dangerous and will only lead you further down the path of doubt. People have been debating and debating non stop with you, yet you refuse to see, you refuse to accept that you could be wrong. Put your pride aside and look at what has been testified of here. For your sake, stop hanging on to doubts that make you feel comfortable, and just accept that you might be wrong. If you are honest with yourself, you will see that you have willingly rejected all the truths laid out before you, why? Because your doctrine makes you comfortable?

I've witnessed fake tongues dozens of times. But that doesn't negate the fact that I've witnessed real tongues 3 times, and happen to be very good friends with a woman who has spoken in real tongues twice, and fake tongues several times. She went to one of those churches that told her that she's not saved without it, therefore she did what they said and she spoke alright, but she felt filthy afterwards, but continued to do it until God convicted her heart so much she left that church. I prayed that she would see it was fake and not of God, and my prayer was answered. A year later, she spoke in tongues, real tongues, quite suddenly and she was very surprised by it and she knew that she was praising God. This was on her way into work. We pulled up around the same time, and when I saw her she was weeping tears of joy, rejoicing and shared with me what happened. I know her, and I know she was not lying, in fact, I've never known her to lie. But as far as you're concerned, she lied and I am lying....or you could check your heart and seek God about this.

Saved7
Apr 12th 2012, 02:32 AM
In context does this mean that it will fail in certain people?

Meaning certain people will not understand the gift of tounges and they will not be amazed at it. Or rather they would, while seeing it, not see it and instead believe it is fake. Or while others would see miracles yet they would think they also were faked. ect ect.

We know that miracles, tounges and prophecy can be faked. Or they could be by chance.

In other words these things are not the heart of the matter.

If you ever witnessed to someone over a long period of time you will know that love is all powerfull. Love is the way that is greater than all. Or if love fails then there is no hope. Miracles may fail. What if you saw a miracle and you didn't care ? Of course we all care since we are mostly christians or believers. But what about the people who see miracles and they still don't believe. These people are hard hearted. First soften there heart and then they can understand why they should believe.


In context, this whole chapter is speaking of gifts and service in the Name of God. All of which are either for adding more people to the Body of Christ, or to edify the believers. Though adding is also edification. The purpose of these gifts is to take care of the Body while it is in this fallen world, where we suffer and have need for communication, healings, money, miracles, whatever. But by the end of the chapter we see that in the end, all those gifts will cease one day, and the only thing that will remain is "love". Because those gifts won't be needed when this present world system is changed into that perfect thing that was intended by God. But love will be needed and will carry on through eternity. :saint:

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


See how he points out that we see through a glass "darkly"....would you say that you see perfectly now? I don't think we see perfectly, considering Paul HIMSELF says that he only knows IN PART NOW But then, one day he will know perfectly just as Jesus knows him perfectly. If we could see perfectly, we wouldn't disagree on doctrines. Before we were blind, but now we see, though we do not see perfectly.



13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Notice this, he says, ABIDETH...which suggests remains, or continues. faith and hope are interlinked, and are needed only for what we cannot see. We cannot see that Kingdom come yet. But there is one that is mentioned above the other two. It is love/charity. God is love, love will continue forever, and so will we in Christ continue in love forever. When that Kingdom finally comes, we will no longer have need of any other gifts.:pp

Zack702
Apr 12th 2012, 03:35 AM
Here is a little bit of how I see what I have been shown.

37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

42Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

43For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Colight
Apr 12th 2012, 03:46 PM
Then how are Christians still speaking in supernatural tongues today? Simple they are not. They are frankly making it up as part of a learned emotional high. The same as the Muslim I witnessed Crock his neck and unset his jaws so he could do a deep guttural chant.
Not the fake ones you are taking about, not the imitation supernatural ones you say you witnessed in India. I'm talking about the tongues spoken by Christians Which today are quite false. Probably again to the heart of the matter why the USA is failing in economic, Political and other woes. Christians are too busy speaking as spiritual Children ( Then calling that spiritual.. do not deny that is what occurs ) Rather they should be putting away the Childish things and thinking as mature.
, in the order that Paul gave as instruction, 2-3 speak in an unknown tongue by the power of the Holy Spirit and then 1 is empowered to interp}ret for the edification of all those listening whether it is a prophetic word, direction, correction (which is still edification), etc? Which was a legit gift for the Church of Corinth in that day.
You see, you can say context and then drop in your opinion that tongues have ended but while you keep saying tongues have ended, Christians around you are being servants of God and allowing the Holy Spirit to freely moving in and through them and the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues is going on today, all around you. There are plenty of things going on around me.. it does not mean they are the correct things to be going on. Just because other MEN do something does not mean it is the correct path to be on.. ( Now you have to resort to peer pressure to make your point? )
Of course, satan is doing his work empowering counterfeit tongues, and/or he's just tempting Christians to "fake" it. Since all tongues today are counterfeit, Satan really does not have to work that hard.. many Christians are jumping right aboard that right with little to no Coaxing.
Think about this... if satan is the ONLY source of supernatural tongues (not the faked type, or learned), then why are we still warned in the Bible to "test" the spirits? Man is quite able to make his own tongues... then claim it is of God.. and make all the right clucking noises in all the right places.. This is why we are to focus on doctrine, not emotional displays.
If the only spirit's empowering supernatural tongues were demonic, then why test? As I keep informing... if tongues ended, all tongues would do today is REVEAL satan is present. Dont get you on that one.... If one doesn't understand the devil is out there and needs tongues to help em sort that out.. They really should stop the chatter and hit some bible class.
Yet, God still glorifies Himself through ALL the gifts of the Holy Spirit to include all those three that you say are ended. God has the angels if he wanted glory, therefore what could man do better than angels when it comes to glory?
So... who/what/how are Christians empowered to speak supernaturally. Again, not fake tongues but supernatural type. As I pointed out.. My steadfast position is All tongues today are fake. Especially the "supernatural type."
Also, you say it's a sign for only the Jews yet scripture doesn't say that. Yet it does...
Cornelius was not a Jew yet he spoke in tongues. All those in Samaria when Philip preached, they were not ALL Jews yet they witnessed all the signs/wonders. Also, what did Simon SEE when the Holy Spirit fell upon all those Jews and Gentiles a couple days/weeks after they accepted Christ and had previously received their water baptism days/weeks before JOhn and Peter prayed over them? Also, those in Corinth are NOT ONLY Jews, yet not only do they (both Jew and Gentile) witness signs/wonders... they also DID them as regular members of the Body of Christ. Do I really have to spell it out for you once more.. Please JUST read what I post, this was all answered. Gentiles, witnessing and carrying the word, They witnessed to Jews. The PEOPLE of God being witnessed to. Gentiles speaking Hebrew, when they never learned Hebrew.. That is the SIGN the People of Israel was to lose the Torch as Gods message bearers to the gentiles.. That was the sign. 1 Cor 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(of Israel)
The context of the Bible, specially the NT and specifically the teaching that God gives to the Body of Christ through Paul shows us that the Body of Christ is BOTH Jew and Gentile. That there is NO difference and signs/wonders are FOR BOTH as we see in all the examples of scripture I just pointed out. Do I need to point out even more for you? The CHURCH is to live by faith and ONLY faith. Our calling is to have zero signs or wonders, only the SPIRITUAL LIFE... The same prototype Spiritual life CHRIST used.. even while he was on the cross. We have so much more available to us yet you wish to focus on the Childish gifts that had to be used in the early Church to help it get a foot hold, prior to the completion of the Complete word of God.

Slug1
Apr 12th 2012, 03:56 PM
Simple they are not. They are frankly making it up as part of a learned emotional high. The same as the Muslim I witnessed Crock his neck and unset his jaws so he could do a deep guttural chant. Which today are quite false. Probably again to the heart of the matter why the USA is failing in economic, Political and other woes. Christians are too busy speaking as spiritual Children ( Then calling that spiritual.. do not deny that is what occurs ) Rather they should be putting away the Childish things and thinking as mature. Which was a legit gift for the Church of Corinth in that day. There are plenty of things going on around me.. it does not mean they are the correct things to be going on. Just because other MEN do something does not mean it is the correct path to be on.. ( Now you have to resort to peer pressure to make your point? ) Since all tongues today are counterfeit, Satan really does not have to work that hard.. many Christians are jumping right aboard that right with little to no Coaxing. Man is quite able to make his own tongues... then claim it is of God.. and make all the right clucking noises in all the right places.. This is why we are to focus on doctrine, not emotional displays. Dont get you on that one.... If one doesn't understand the devil is out there and needs tongues to help em sort that out.. They really should stop the chatter and hit some bible class. God has the angels if he wanted glory, therefore what could man do better than angels when it comes to glory? As I pointed out.. My steadfast position is All tongues today are fake. Especially the "supernatural type." Yet it does... Do I really have to spell it out for you once more.. Please JUST read what I post, this was all answered. Gentiles, witnessing and carrying the word, They witnessed to Jews. The PEOPLE of God being witnessed to. Gentiles speaking Hebrew, when they never learned Hebrew.. That is the SIGN the People of Israel was to lose the Torch as Gods message bearers to the gentiles.. That was the sign. 1 Cor 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(of Israel) The CHURCH is to live by faith and ONLY faith. Our calling is to have zero signs or wonders, only the SPIRITUAL LIFE... The same prototype Spiritual life CHRIST used.. even while he was on the cross. We have so much more available to us yet you wish to focus on the Childish gifts that had to be used in the early Church to help it get a foot hold, prior to the completion of the Complete word of God.Your entire post denies the POWER of God in and through the lives of faithful Christians.

Slug1
Apr 12th 2012, 04:13 PM
Do I really have to spell it out for you once more.. Please JUST read what I post, this was all answered. Gentiles, witnessing and carrying the word, They witnessed to Jews. The PEOPLE of God being witnessed to. Gentiles speaking Hebrew, when they never learned Hebrew.. That is the SIGN the People of Israel was to lose the Torch as Gods message bearers to the gentiles.. That was the sign. You opinion isn't alined with scripture though. In Acts 2, Jews are not the only people listening, so "Hebrew" wasn't the only language being manifested through the gift of tongues. Greeks, Arabs, Romans, Asians plus others were present and they didn't hear "Hebrew" being spoken.

So was this a sign for them as well, or NOT?

Watchman
Apr 12th 2012, 04:16 PM
Your entire post denies the POWER of God in and through the lives of faithful Christians.
Reminds me of...having a form of godliness but denying its power. I've also noticed that Colight hasn't offered any exegetic proof of his claims that the perfect is the Bible up in the thread, That which is perfect. (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/237329-That-which-is-perfect?p=2833320#post2833320)

W :)

Colight
Apr 12th 2012, 04:22 PM
Or could it be that you simply don't want to admit that you might be wrong and so you are letting pride get in your way of believing that God still works like this?

Seems you dropped that Pride trash on the floor...

You may wish to pick it up.


Is the same kind of logic, you are going by your own experience or lack thereof to determine a doctrine not found in the Bible unless you do a lot of twisting and denying.

Lovely.


When you have several people here who have testified the truth to you,
I guess I should Just take their word on it.. Wow!!
I thus far have found their case lacking.. an it is.
To state that a small temporary gift its day, now is of Huge use is baffling, considering there really is no mention of it in many of the other books of the new testament.
If it was such a HUGE importance, all the new testament authors would have had a crack at it.



It's dangerous and will only lead you further down the path of doubt.

Yet I have no doubts..



When you have several people here who have testified the truth to you, yet you call us liars, our posts and stories suspect.
Well When I have been in the environments they claim are one way, and from my experience they are totally another way.
It raises questions about the validity of their tales.



People have been debating and debating non stop with you, yet you refuse to see, you refuse to accept that you could be wrong.
Put your pride aside and look at what has been testified of here.

Why Must I be the one that is wrong, perhaps it is your pride that is in the way



For your sake, stop hanging on to doubts that make you feel comfortable, and just accept that you might be wrong.

I have no doubts,
It is quite clear to me.


If you are honest with yourself, you will see that you have willingly rejected all the truths laid out before you, why?


Truth according to whom?
Certainly not to scripture.
Certainly not to many other doctrines that go into great depth as to what our focus is to be on.
We MOST certainly are not to focus on the partials and the mists when we have the complete right in our very hands.


Because your doctrine makes you comfortable?


Guess what... That is one of the side effects of solid doctrine.



I've witnessed fake tongues dozens of times. But that doesn't negate the fact that I've witnessed real tongues 3 times, and happen to be very good friends with a woman who has spoken in real tongues twice, and fake tongues several times.


'''':o''''''




She went to one of those churches that told her that she's not saved without it, therefore she did what they said and she spoke alright, but she felt filthy afterwards, but continued to do it until God convicted her heart so much she left that church. I prayed that she would see it was fake and not of God, and my prayer was answered. A year later, she spoke in tongues, real tongues, quite suddenly and she was very surprised by it and she knew that she was praising God. This was on her way into work. We pulled up around the same time, and when I saw her she was weeping tears of joy, rejoicing and shared with me what happened. I know her, and I know she was not lying, in fact, I've never known her to lie. But as far as you're concerned, she lied and I am lying....or you could check your heart and seek God about this.

Oh boy..:o...:note:

You really need to sort out your Priorities.

Colight
Apr 12th 2012, 04:29 PM
Your entire post denies the POWER of God in and through the lives of faithful Christians.

We have the same Spiritual Life Christ used on earth, the SAME mechanics that carried Christ on the Cross we have.

Yet your focus is on some tongues issue, so that Christians can act like a bunch emotional Kids in Church where they should be in bible study...

Exactly Who is focused on the Power of God again?

Colight
Apr 12th 2012, 04:31 PM
Reminds me of...having a form of godliness but denying its power. I've also noticed that Colight hasn't offered any exegetic proof of his claims that the perfect is the Bible up in the thread, That which is perfect. (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/237329-That-which-is-perfect?p=2833320#post2833320)

W :)

Nor will I..
I saw how your last one on women speaking went.

Slug1
Apr 12th 2012, 04:39 PM
We have the same Spiritual Life Christ used on earth, the SAME mechanics that carried Christ on the Cross we have.

Yet your focus is on some tongues issue, so that Christians can act like a bunch emotional Kids in Church where they should be in bible study...

Exactly Who is focused on the Power of God again?Discipled Christians do NOT act like the Corinthians. Undisciplined Christians... DO.

If you keep saying any and all do, then how would Paul react to your opinion? He corrected the Corinthians of their exercising of that gift and then concluded the instruction by telling the Body of Christ NOT to prevent the speaking of tongues.

Your continued accusation that any Christian who speaks in tongues makes them childish... reveals your heart for brothers and sisters in Christ.

Watchman
Apr 12th 2012, 04:39 PM
Nor will I..
I saw how your last one on women speaking went.
What meaneth that? The study on women speaking comes directly from scripture and is ongoing. In fact, I've been moving rather hurriedly through some of the background material in that thread in order to accomodate your wishes of reaching the pertinent NT passages...and am almost there.

If you have credible arguments, or refutation, to what I posted re: the perfect, then are you not duty bound as my brother in Christ to show it to me? And if you have credible, exegetic evidence--which you have yet to supply sans your own opinions and assumptions--that the perfect is the Bible, are you afraid to post it? Just curious. You mix your opinion in very liberally with scripture and you've come to a discussion board...why, then, are you avoiding some discussions?

Andy :hmm:

Colight
Apr 12th 2012, 04:51 PM
then TOLD the Body of Christ NOT to prevent the speaking of tongues.

As I have Covered with you twice before..
In that day that was the correct thing for Paul to say to them.
In This day, it would nt be correct.


Your continued accusation that any Christian who speaks in tongues makes them childish... reveals your heart for brothers and sisters in Christ.


It is Paul's words NOT MINE!!!

Again, it is PAUL who stated..

1 cor 13
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child(Tongues), think like a child( gift of prophesy) , reason like a child( gift of knowledge); when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

With the Bible here.... the life of acting like a Child has come to a end.

Therefore tongues , gift of prophesy, gift of knowledge.. are all compared to being Childish, Immature.

Watchman
Apr 12th 2012, 05:04 PM
With the Bible here.... the life of acting like a Child has come to a end. Therefore tongues , gift of prophesy, gift of knowledge.. are all compared to being Childish, Immature.
Sooo, you draw a flawed conclusion from a faulty, assumptive premise.......and expect it will automatically be accepted? You cannot and have not proven that the Bible is the perfect. Until you do, you are spitting into the wind. Who taught you that stuff, anyway? A careful, prayerful examination of 1 Corinthians would never lead anyone to that conclusion. Why on earth would Paul tell the Corinthians they are acting immaturely, then tell them when the Bible comes (in a couple or three hundred years after a council of folks decides exactly what it is), that they would no longer need their childish ways. That would be condemning them to immaturity. Sheesh.

W :no:

Colight
Apr 12th 2012, 05:05 PM
then are you not duty bound as my brother in Christ to show it to me?

Heh... saved7 (#128) would just say that is my pride coming out .. And I would hate for you to feel I am above you.. and God forbid if I actually feel I am right about a point or two.

Now you are telling me I am duty bound..

Slug1
Apr 12th 2012, 05:09 PM
1 cor 13
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child(Tongues), think like a child( gift of prophesy) , reason like a child( gift of knowledge); when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

With the Bible here.... the life of acting like a Child has come to a end.

Therefore tongues , gift of prophesy, gift of knowledge.. are all compared to being Childish, Immature.Colight... if you read these scriptures where Paul talks about HOW he presently speak and ALSO sings in tongues... how are YOU to balance the context of the scriptures in total.

SO I'm gonna show you where Paul informs us that he presently continues to speaks and sing in tongues and also plans to CONTINUE speaking and singing in tongues.

1 Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Cor 13&version=NKJV;#fen-NKJV-28669a)] but have not love, it profits me nothing.

1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

v18I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;

So the question is... is Paul double-minded and beaten around like a wave on the ocean that he would say speaking in tongues is childish in one breath and in the next, THANK GOD that he speaks in tongues?

OR... is your understanding of a single scripture when NOT in the context of the scriptures... in error?

If you take that ONE SINGLE scripture, remove it from context, then you are right!

If you balance that ONE SINGLE scripture in context with the full meaning of what God is using Paul to teach the Body of Christ... you are not right.

So, are you gonna hold to YOUR opinion of WHAT you want that ONE SINGLE scripture to mean when you remove it from it's contextual placement in the scriptures... or are you gonna place that ONE SINGLE scripture BACK into it's proper place and see that Paul must mean something else because he is telling us that he speaks in tongues, he sings in tongues, he THANKS GOD that he is given this gift and then he even concludes his discipleship of the Corinthians that they are NOT TO PREVENT the speaking of tongues.

So does the truth of scripture really line up with your opinion???

v20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.

This is the context of the other verse you pulled away from the context of God's truth and turned it into what YOU want to believe.

Paul is talking about the present understanding of the Corinthians as childish... it's not about talking in tongues is childish (as you say base don a single scripture removed from context), it's ABOUT HOW they lack the proper discipline to PROPERLY speak in tongues in an ORDERLY manner and they don't understand the PURPOSE of tongues to be of edification. All they do with the gift is "SHOW IT OFF"... THAT is what is childish!!!!

It's not childish THAT they speak in tongues (as you say), it's childish in the MANNER in which they speak in tongues.

This is the same problem today... in MANY churches all throughout the entire Body of Christ all over the world.

Which is why, are you gonna stick to your belief or are you gonna submit to the truth of scripture and help correct and disciple today's Christians who are childish in their USAGE of tongues?

Watchman
Apr 12th 2012, 05:11 PM
If you believe I'm wrong and have proof of it and do not show me...then you have erred. You are simply dodging a serious study. It is as simple as that. If you're right and are able to show me that you are right without mixing in your opinions, then I'll gladly thank you and change my pov. I'm not above changing as the Lord grows me. In fact, I daresay that if anyone who believes exactly now as they did a few years ago, then that person is not growing. You've given no cogent reason why you refuse to engage on the perfect in a thread of its own. Are you simply here to waste the time of others?

Andy

I hope that you will seek the Lord to rid you of the religious spirit that is clouding your sight.:pray:

Watchman
Apr 12th 2012, 05:16 PM
if you read these scriptures where Paul talks about HOW he presently speak and ALSO sings in tongues... how are YOU to balance the context of the scriptures in total.

SO I'm gonna show you where Paul informs us that he presently continues to speaks and sing in tongues and also plans to CONTINUE speaking and singing in tongues.

1 Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Cor 13&version=NKJV;#fen-NKJV-28669a)] but have not love, it profits me nothing.

1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

v18I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;

So the question is... is Paul double-minded and beaten around like a wave on the ocean that he would say speaking in tongues is childish in one breath and in the next, THANK GOD that he speaks in tongues?

OR... is your understanding of a single scripture when NOT in the context of the scriptures... in error?

If you take that ONE SINGLE scripture, remove it from context, then you are right!

If you balance that ONE SINGLE scripture in context with the full meaning of what God is using Paul to teach the Body of Christ... you are not right.

So, are you gonna hold to YOUR opinion of WHAT you want that ONE SINGLE scripture to mean when you remove it from it's contextual placement in the scriptures... or are you gonna place that ONE SINGLE scripture BACK into it's proper place and see that Paul must mean something else because he is telling us that he speaks in tongues, he sings in tongues, he THANKS GOD that he is given this gift and then he even concludes his discipleship of the Corinthians that they are NOT TO PREVENT the speaking of tongues.

So does the truth of scripture really line up with your opinion???
Amen. Opinions come and go...but the truth of the Lord doesn't change. This entire fiasco of an interpretation that tongues will cease when the Bible arrives on the scene is a house of doctrinal cards that comes tumbling down when one considers the context and balance of scripture.

W :)

Slug1
Apr 12th 2012, 05:19 PM
Amen. Opinions come and go...but the truth of the Lord doesn't change. This entire fiasco of an interpretation that tongues will cease when the Bible arrives on the scene is a house of doctrinal cards that comes tumbling down when one considers the context and balance of scripture.

W :)Hooah, I even just made an edit to that post to point it out even stronger in the truth of scripture.

Saved7
Apr 13th 2012, 01:09 AM
Colight, I am certain you know full well that I am not comparing the gifts with being equal with God; I am merely using a spiritual example that even you should be able to see. However, since you choose to play the devil's advocate with your accusations about my priorities, I will only say this; I am responsible for what I say, but I am NOT responsible for your interpretation. If you choose to misinterpret God's Word in light of all that everyone has said to you, then who am I to expect you to properly interpret my fallible words? That being said, I will let you to your own ways, I hope you eventually see what you are missing, so you no longer miss out on the joy of knowing God and operating in the gifts He gives.

Brother Mark
Apr 13th 2012, 01:24 AM
How can tongues be over when Paul states that

1 Cor 13:10-12
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face
NASU

We will see face to face when that which is perfect has come. As an example of what seeing face to face means, Paul uses himself as an example:

1 Cor 13:12
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
NASU

So when someone knows as well as they are known, then the gift of tongues will have ceased.

Colight
Apr 13th 2012, 03:28 PM
How can tongues be over when Paul states that

1 Cor 13:10-12
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face


NASU

We will see face to face when that which is perfect has come. As an example of what seeing face to face means, Paul uses himself as an example:

1 Cor 13:12
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
NASU

So when someone knows as well as they are known, then the gift of tongues will have ceased.

Scripture is also like a mirror that we use too to Check our selves..
James 1:23-25

23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.
25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty( Bible ), and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

Oh My and look at this too....

my... my....

Our little Friend "the perfect " is here too in its gender neutral...teleios..
The same teleios.. that appears in 1 Corinthians 13:10...

So It seems in the early Church...they would call the completed Scripture,
the perfect or the complete... and they would compare its use to a mirror.

It also Seems that After the writing of 1 Corinthians and before the writing of James.
Tongues ceased!!!
Because JAMES did not have a LICK to say about TONGUES!!!
And he referred to "the perfect" as being virtually complete, for instead of a cloudy mirror, it was now a excellent mirror to use to judge ones self.
Maybe James did have something to say about tongues...

James 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.


Also here is another note...

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Another reference, with the result that the man of God maybe Perfect ( complete ), thru scripture..
Now only something that is complete can train men to that same completeness.
Again this was written way after 1 Corinthians..( Which looked forward to having the perfect)
Also there is NOT one peep of TONGUES in 2 Timothy..
IF it was such of HUGE importance..Why is it not mentioned?

My Mistake.... Paul did Mention Tongues in 2 Timothy...
2 Tim 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.


...........

Watchman
Apr 13th 2012, 03:34 PM
Scripture is also like a mirror that we use too to Check our selves..
James 1:23-25

23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.
25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty( Bible ), and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

Oh My and look at this too....

my... my....

Our little Friend "the perfect " is here too in its gender neutral...teleios..
The same teleios.. that appears in 1 Corinthians 13:10...

So It seems in the early Church...they would call the completed Scripture,
the perfect or the complete... and they would compare its use to a mirror.

It also Seems that After the writing of 1 Corinthians and before the writing of James.
Tongues ceased!!!
Because JAMES did not have a LICK to say about TONGUES!!!
And he referred to "the perfect" as being virtually complete, for instead of a cloudy mirror, it was now a excellent mirror to use to judge ones self.
Maybe James did have something to say about tongues...

James 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.


Also here is another note...

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Another reference, with the result that the man of God maybe Perfect ( complete ), thru scripture..
Now only something that is complete can train men to that same completeness.
Again this was written way after 1 Corinthians..( Which looked forward to having the perfect)
Also there is NOT one peep of TONGUES in 2 Timothy..
IF it was such of HUGE importance..Why is it not mentioned?

My Mistake.... Paul did Mention Tongues in 2 Timothy...
2 Tim 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.


...........
Well played, sir, well played...as far as eisegesis goes. You are simply superimposing your preconceived notion onto scripture, rather than interpreting, you are reading into scripture.

Colight
Apr 13th 2012, 03:40 PM
Well played, sir, well played...as far as eisegesis goes. You are simply superimposing your preconceived notion onto scripture, rather than interpreting, you are reading into scripture.

Excuse me, It is fact..
In books written after 1 Corinthians, Tongues really is not mentioned.

As I have pointed out...
Tongues thru their use, caused them self to fade.
Therefore this is in line with my position.

Your position is left struggling ( If you are honest ) to explain why SUCH a HUGE spiritual gift as tongues has really no further mention beyond 1 Corinthians.

Brother Mark
Apr 13th 2012, 03:44 PM
Your position is left struggling ( If you are honest ) to explain why SUCH a HUGE spiritual gift as tongues has really no further mention beyond 1 Corinthians.

If you argument is that the scriptures are that which is perfect, why then, did tongues die (according to your argument) out prior to the last scriptures being written? IOW, Based on your statement above, it appears you are saying they died out before the scriptures were completed which contradicts what 1 cor 13 states IF it is talking about the scriptures being perfect.

Colight
Apr 13th 2012, 03:51 PM
If you argument is that the scriptures are that which is perfect, why then, did tongues die (according to your argument) out prior to the last scriptures being written? IOW, Based on your statement above, it appears you are saying they died out before the scriptures were completed which contradicts what 1 cor 13 states IF it is talking about the scriptures being perfect.


My Position has been that Tongues was to warn Israel of the up coming Roman Firestorm of 70 ad and ended before or around that time.

The Position of the tongues speakers here on this board has been that Tongues will die out when Christ returns ( aka they say the gender neutral Perfect = Christ ).
Therefore by providing the PERFECT = Scriptures, which is the context of that passage.
Now they have some explaining to do.

Brother Mark
Apr 13th 2012, 04:14 PM
Therefore by providing the PERFECT = Scriptures, which is the context of that passage

Then why wasn't tongues mentioned in later scriptures? Did it die out before the scriptures were completed?

divaD
Apr 13th 2012, 04:23 PM
My Position has been that Tongues was to warn Israel of the up coming Roman Firestorm of 70 ad and ended before or around that time.




Why would tongues needed to be used to convey that? A lot of folks conclude that Jesus conveyed that to them when He walked the earth, and that it is recorded in the gospels. If this is so, I don't see where Jesus ever used tongues to convey this message to them. My guess might be that other tongues could be meaning Gentiles, as opposed to Jews. So IOW, Gentiles might be a sign to the unbelieving Jews. IOW..maybe like this.

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With GENTILES will I speak unto this people THE ETHNIC UNBELIEVING JEWS; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Now compare that to this.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

It seems to me then, that God might be trying to get thru to His people via Gentiles, IOW with men of other tongues and other lips, while at the same time having mercy upon all, because now salvation is for all, including the branches that were broken off, if they abide not still in unbelief.

Slug1
Apr 13th 2012, 04:53 PM
My Position has been that Tongues was to warn Israel of the up coming Roman Firestorm of 70 ad and ended before or around that time.

The Position of the tongues speakers here on this board has been that Tongues will die out when Christ returns ( aka they say the gender neutral Perfect = Christ ).
Therefore by providing the PERFECT = Scriptures, which is the context of that passage.
Now they have some explaining to do.Explaining has been done... there is an entire NEW thread devoted to this topic here: >>Click (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/237329-That-which-is-perfect)<<

Seems to me, no more explaining is needed.

LISTENING is what needs to happen.

Paul explained that WHEN that which IS Perfect has come, we will be known... we will be face to face. This is about "personal" relationship. Christ is the Perfect. Also... he states in verse 12 that... "//....BUT THEN...// this is all about when the "perfect" IS come. He died before the canonization/completion of what was to become the Bible, YET... Paul is still led by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to write that he WILL experience the perfect on a PERSONAL level.

v10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Also... this is what the Bible accomplishes for us as a Body of Christ:

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The Bible is "profitable" enough to accomplish all what it specified in these scriptures. Complete... NOT perfect.

As God proves all throughout the world when supernatural tongues, knowledge and prophetic words are manifested in glory to God, people have a choice... either hold to their belief and ignore what God is doing all around them or remove the blindness (man made doctrines, false belief, misunderstanding of scripture due to contextual removal, religion) and SEE that these gifts of the Holy Spirit are still manifested throughout the Body of Christ, all throughout the world.

Watchman
Apr 13th 2012, 04:55 PM
Scripture is also like a mirror that we use too to Check our selves..
James 1:23-25

23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.
25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty( Bible ), and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

Oh My and look at this too....

my... my....

Our little Friend "the perfect " is here too in its gender neutral...teleios..
The same teleios.. that appears in 1 Corinthians 13:10...

So It seems in the early Church...they would call the completed Scripture,
the perfect or the complete... and they would compare its use to a mirror.

It also Seems that After the writing of 1 Corinthians and before the writing of James.
Tongues ceased!!!
Because JAMES did not have a LICK to say about TONGUES!!!
And he referred to "the perfect" as being virtually complete, for instead of a cloudy mirror, it was now a excellent mirror to use to judge ones self.
Maybe James did have something to say about tongues...

James 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Also here is another note...

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Another reference, with the result that the man of God maybe Perfect ( complete ), thru scripture..
Now only something that is complete can train men to that same completeness.
Again this was written way after 1 Corinthians..( Which looked forward to having the perfect)
Also there is NOT one peep of TONGUES in 2 Timothy..
IF it was such of HUGE importance..Why is it not mentioned?

My Mistake.... Paul did Mention Tongues in 2 Timothy...
2 Tim 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness............
For starters, your sarcasm is duly noted and unappreciated. Next, you have, as you are wont to do, cherry-picked a couple of passages that seem to support your pov. So let’s take a closer look, shall we?
You are really stretching in you assumption that, since James was written after 1 Corinthians, and since James doesn’t mention tongues, then tongues have died out. That is the poorest of logic. Your first premise is correct, your second premise is correct, your conclusion does not follow. Ever heard of a non sequitur? You just gave a textbook example of such. Eisegesis also describes this.

Our little friend, teleios, does not appear in 2 Timothy 3:16-17; consequently, your comparison is moot and irrelevant. Also, you neglected to mention the other uses of teleios:


Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hebrews 11:4 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Given such a great cloud of witnesses to the uses of teleios, and its deriviatives, how can you possibly pick out one verse, or two, and apply it to mean the Bible? Eisegesis, that’s how. Not one of Paul's uses of teleios references the completed canon of the Bible...not ONE!

Next, you’ve yet to prove that the Corinthians would even have a notion of the Bible. The word, scripture, does not appear in the OT, but refers to it in all but one instance in the NT. The Bible, as we know it, is NOT prophesied in OT scripture, so the Corinthians surely would NOT have understood the perfect to be something that would come nearly 300 years after their collective demise.

Finally, the perfect law of liberty can be construed to be either the law of Moses or the law of Christ. I prefer the latter. The law of Christ is love…period. It has never been the scriptures. Your idea that the scriptures somehow equip, mature, prepare, fit…or whatever descriptor you want to use…people for works of service is not the meaning Paul conveyed to Timothy. The scriptures tell us the Holy Spirit will be put in us (see Ezekiel 36). The NT scriptures tell us the Holy Spirit will guide and teach us. Yes, He can, and does, use the scriptures…but they are NOT His only means of working.

W :)

Hawkins
Apr 13th 2012, 05:06 PM
From my experience and study, "tongue" could be something totally different from what we think it is. This could be heretic though but for your reference only.

"Tongue" is part of the off-body language for you to speak off-bodily and for others to hear off-bodily. Souls in Hades may speak this way, as they don't have a body. The main characteristic of "tongue" is that, no matter who speaks, you shall hear your own native tongue. Mostly you speak in your own native tongue while all others will hear their own native tongue respectively.

There are usually 2 symptoms when people with a physical body speaking in "tongue".

1. One tries to speak his own native language while God makes him speak off-bodily, and at the same time making all his audience listenning off-bodily. This shall be the case in Pentecost.

2. You (you could be gifted in this case) tried to speak off-bodily but by your effort somehow your physical tongue is out of control that your physical voice turns into gibberish to others who are unable to hear off-bodily. If God would like your message to be heard in this case, He might choose to allow one or several of your audience to be able to hear off-bodily to understand what you said, and in this case they shall hear their own native language respectively. In theory, you are still intending to speak your own native lauguage though in voice it appears to be gibberish.


("tongue" might have been ceased (?not sure yet) because most likely speaking in this way will leave physical evidence of His existence)


2 Corinthians 12:2 (http://bibleforums.org/passage/?search=2 Corinthians+12:2&version=NIV)
Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.

If you are ever brought to this state, you may have a clue about what I am talking about.


Acts 2
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 13th 2012, 06:04 PM
Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for [fn1] he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

What is everyone's take on the prayer language when we pray in the Spirit? Paul said we "edify", or build up ourselves. It's apparent in corporate worship we seek to edify others, but when we are communing with God, Paul made it plain that it's a good thing, a great thing to pray in the Spirit.

Also, Paul said to come behind in no gift until the return of the Lord. Joel 2 says that in the last day God would pour out His Spirit among all flesh and the sons and daughters would prophecy. We are STILL in the last days, the same covenant. God is still healing, delivering and yes, giving His saints the prayer language. 1 Cor. 13 says God would not do away with the gifts until perfection comes. I find it hard to believe he was referring to the 1611 King James Bible ;)

Hawkins
Apr 13th 2012, 06:23 PM
Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for [fn1] he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

What is everyone's take on the prayer language when we pray in the Spirit? Paul said we "edify", or build up ourselves. It's apparent in corporate worship we seek to edify others, but when we are communing with God, Paul made it plain that it's a good thing, a great thing to pray in the Spirit.

Also, Paul said to come behind in no gift until the return of the Lord. Joel 2 says that in the last day God would pour out His Spirit among all flesh and the sons and daughters would prophecy. We are STILL in the last days, the same covenant. God is still healing, delivering and yes, giving His saints the prayer language. 1 Cor. 13 says God would not do away with the gifts until perfection comes. I find it hard to believe he was referring to the 1611 King James Bible ;)

IMO, whenever you claim that "this is from the Holy Spirit", and when this is not an easy discernment, the best advice is just as Paul did. He recommended you to leave it between you and God. You are not recommended to refute any claim like this which is difficult to discern. Because in case he is correct, you are risking yourself of the unforgivable sin of offending the Holy Spirit. Risking of this kind shall be forbbiden.

On the other hand, whenever you claim that "this is done by the Holy Spirit", you are already risking yourself of such an offense. So better leave it between God and you, unless you have a witness who can interpret what you said. In this case, it will be truly the Holy Spirit's deed, but at the same time God leaves physical evidence for you, you are truly gifted in this case.

As for prayers, Paul said that God will not listen to the prayers of the sinners, the Holy Spirit will convey your prayers to God, in whatever language, in body or out of body. Other gifts are very much different from "speaking in tongue", they don't have such a "risk". So people with such a gift, even when it is true, better leave it between God and yourself, unless this can be confirmed by an interpreter.

In essence, Paul will not rebuke you even when you deserve a big flog in this case. Instead, he sets an example of how this should be dealt with, just ask whoever claims to have this gift to leave it between him and God.

That's my take.

Colight
Apr 14th 2012, 04:56 AM
For starters, your sarcasm is duly noted and unappreciated. Next, you have, as you are wont to do, cherry-picked a couple of passages that seem to support your pov. So let’s take a closer look, shall we?

Again If Tongues was So important It would have been mentioned in the books that was written after 1 Corinthians ( which was one of the earlier books of the NT))



You are really stretching in you assumption that, since James was written after 1 Corinthians, and since James doesn’t mention tongues, then tongues have died out. That is the poorest of logic. Your first premise is correct, your second premise is correct, your conclusion does not follow. Ever heard of a non sequitur? You just gave a textbook example of such. Eisegesis also describes this.

Here is Logic for you..
If 1 Corinthians says that Knowledge and prophecy are Partial and Dim, and when used as a mirror you get a Foggy Image, Yet James says When Scripture is used as a mirror you get a sharp image.. There was a change in the amount and quality of scripture they had between 1 Corinthians and James.

The PERFECT is a reference to Scripture in context with Knowledge and Prophecy in the previous verses that was partial before it.


Our little friend, teleios, does not appear in 2 Timothy 3:16-17; consequently, your comparison is moot and irrelevant


I never stated it did:

What I did state Is thru Scripture one can be Perfect (lacking in nothing), or (completely supplied). Therefore one doesn't have to wait till Christs return to be Perfect and complete. Paul was Stating in 1 Corienth that there was a lacking, what they only had then was dim visions and immature reasoning and knowledge.

Therefore the QUALITY of their knowledge and Prophecy had changed between 1 Corinthians and 2 Timothy. The Perfect ( Bible) was there and it was there Enough that people had thorough stocking in knowledge and Prophecy.

There is no other way to ignore the fact that THE PERFECT of 1 Cor is a reference to Complete Knowledge and COMPLETE Prophecy. For other Books of scripture are stating there is a completeness in scripture that was not in some of earlier books of the NT.


Next, you’ve yet to prove that the Corinthians would even have a notion of the Bible. The word, scripture, does not appear in the OT, but refers to it in all but one instance in the NT. The Bible, as we know it, is NOT prophesied in OT scripture, so the Corinthians surely would NOT have understood the perfect to be something that would come nearly 300 years after their collective demise.

The Church was not a prediction.
The Bible is a result of the forming of the Gentile Church, were we are to live by Faith not signs and wonders.
So we need a handbook to , to help tech us doctrine, that is the Bible.
It is considered a result of Israel rejecting their King.
This is really simple dispensationist doctrine, why is it you do not know it?
This is the ONLY age that Christ is in every Believer, The Spirit is in EVERY Believer, EVERY Believer is a priest, the Church is the Bride of Christ, Those in the Church are Royalty thru Christ, the very Royalty of heaven it self. This will not be giving to other peoples before and after the church.


Finally, the perfect law of liberty can be construed to be either the law of Moses or the law of Christ. I prefer the latter. The law of Christ is love…period. It has never been the scriptures.


James 1
22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror
....
25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.
26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless.


The Word = The perfect Law that givers freedom..



Your idea that the scriptures somehow equip, mature, prepare, fit…or whatever descriptor you want to use…people for works of service is not the meaning Paul conveyed to Timothy. The scriptures tell us the Holy Spirit will be put in us (see Ezekiel 36). The NT scriptures tell us the Holy Spirit will guide and teach us. Yes, He can, and does, use the scriptures…but they are NOT His only means of working.

W :)

In this age it is scriptures..
The HS uses the scripture to teach, for they Contain the truth and perfection of God.
What else contains the Truth and perfection of God that we should us?

2 Tim 3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Thru scripture one is totally equipped, complete and lacking in nothing needed in the campaign that is before them.

Paul also states...

2 Tim 2
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

He really does not beat around the Bush, Doctrinal Study is God approved and has no SHAME.
Nothing else is needed to finish the race that is before us.. no experiences, no Miracles...
All we need is a bible, a Pastor that knows how to teach it and a good study habit.
Those who say more is needed, are adding to scripture.

Colight
Apr 14th 2012, 05:35 AM
Paul explained that WHEN that which IS Perfect has come, we will be known... we will be face to face.

Which is not what he is stating, He is using a metaphor of looking in a mirror at ones self.. Not another looking at us.

In James the MIRROR is much more clear. For there was a vast improvement in knowledge and Prophecy that it was a lot more clear to the NT Authors.


This is about "personal" relationship. Christ is the Perfect. Also... he states in verse 12 that... "//....BUT THEN...// this is all about when the "perfect" IS come. He died before the canonization/completion of what was to become the Bible, YET... Paul is still led by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to write that he WILL experience the perfect on a PERSONAL level.

The personal level he is writing here is a maturity of that which is incomplete.
That being Knowledge and prophecy. In Later books such as James, they see the mirror more sharply,
In 2 timothy Paul sees Knowledge and Prophecy more complete, as able to furnish all that is needed.

Therefore there was a change from the Partial in 1 Corinth to 2 Tim,
That Changes was the Arrival of the more in completeness in Knowledge and Prophecy,
Which is more in Line as to why he would state the Gifts of Prophecy and Knowledge will fade...

1 cor 13
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

There is a link between the Perfect( Complete ) and the partial.
The COMPLETE finishes the partial so that the partial is no longer needed.
There is nothing here that even remotely hints this is a reference to Christ, to state it does takes it grossly out of Context, and ignores the linkage to the partial.
Also this is a IMMATURE congregation babies in spirit if you will.
Paul would not use vague phrases with them, he would not vaguely link to Christs return.
For Christ is not FINISHED when he returns. This is about bringing to a completeness, a maturity of that which is partial..
He was very straight forward with them.
in latter Chapters he very PLAINLY stated Christ, his return and the orders of his return.

The PERFECT -teleios
- brought to its end, finished
- wanting nothing necessary to completeness
- The Completeness of men being...full grown, adult, of full age, mature


This Goes very well with the example Paul used..

11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

The PERFECT {complete}, is a reference to Complete Knowledge and Compete prophecy, therefore a reference to doctrine ( Scripture )

Slug1
Apr 14th 2012, 06:06 AM
The question remains...

Not fake, not abused, not imitation, not counterfeit etc.... BUT these three specific gifts still in operation today all over the world by Christians in the Body of Christ... and God being glorified.

Who/how/what is empowering Christians to speak in tongues, words of knowledge, and prophetic words today?

Colight
Apr 14th 2012, 06:12 AM
The question remains...

Not fake, not abused, not imitation, not counterfeit etc.... BUT these three specific gifts still in operation today all over the world by Christians in the Body of Christ... and God being glorified.

Who/how/what is empowering Christians to speak in tongues, words of knowledge, and prophetic words today?

Actually,
According to scripture They are not in operation today.
Therefore
All instances of these operations must be seen as counterfeit or worse..

Take it or leave it.
Each Must go on their on path, and what they do or believe will be between them and God.
If they have been shown the truth and reject it and press on.

That is now between them and God, they have been warned.
The Same as the People of Israel was warned of 70ad.

tsheya
Apr 14th 2012, 09:24 AM
This is one of the subject that many believer are ignore about.1cor13:9-10 for we know in part and we prophesy in part.
Bt when that which is complete has come,then that which is in part will be done away
This gifts are distributed in part for idification of the church until the complete\whole pefect law of liberty come (Js1:25)
The purpose of this gifts is to confirm the word. (Mark16:20)
Today we have the whole bible(a complete word)
The corinthians are instructed not to forbid to speak in languages 1cor14:39
In order to confirm the word.
But us this generation we hv the complete bible.

Slug1
Apr 14th 2012, 01:04 PM
Actually,
According to scripture They are not in operation today.
Therefore
All instances of these operations must be seen as counterfeit or worse..

Take it or leave it.
Each Must go on their on path, and what they do or believe will be between them and God.
If they have been shown the truth and reject it and press on.

That is now between them and God, they have been warned.
The Same as the People of Israel was warned of 70ad.OK... so, we come to the point of this question then.

If... BIG IF... you are sure that you're interpretation of those scriptures are correct, then why can't you call supernatural tongues of the devil?

I couldn't back then when I was asked, you can't know...WHY?

When you seek God for that answer and that seeking is in submission to Him and the power He displays upon and THROUGH the Body of Christ as the Holy Spirit moves in power... with a heart seeking HIS truth, humbled before Him and not placing faith in a belief based on a man-made doctrine called Cessationism... God will show you His answer.

You may go on for many more years denying the POWER of the Holy Spirit and while you do this, you will also NEVER find enough strength to call supernatural tongues, supernatural words of knowledge, and prophetic words... demonic IN ORIGIN.

When you want to know why, seek God, but... BIG BUT, when He answers.... be prepared to toss out your present belief and understanding. It's build on logic, reason, and NO faith in the power of God and the supernatural ministry of the Holy Spirit upon and through the Body of Christ.

Pride must first be set aside, that was my first step. It is the VERY first step ALL WHO testify of being freed of the doctrine of Cassationism, that they speak about.

To admit error and that I COULD BE wrong, STEP NUMBER ONE.

Once I made that step, God clearly began to work inside my heart as I surrendered TO Him.

God Bless you Colight.

There is no more helping, their is only praying to be done FOR you. Only God can help you know the truth and in that truth, experience the FULLNESS of a faithful relationship in God, through Christ, led by the Holy Spirit.

Years ago, I had the Cessationist doctrine placed in that linup after Christ and I was LED by that and actually many other man-made doctrines and those doctrines pushed the Holy Spirit away from me and suppressed Him in my life.

Let me point something else out to you...

How many times did Jesus say, "Ye of little faith" and how many times did He also say, "You are healed BY or IN ACCORDANCE to your faith???"

Faith is what ENABLES God to move in POWER upon and through a person's life as God glorifies Himself.

Faith plays a MUCH GREATER role in a relationship with God than you think based on what can be assessed by your words.

Praying for you dude!!

Slug1
Apr 14th 2012, 01:09 PM
This is one of the subject that many believer are ignore about.1cor13:9-10 for we know in part and we prophesy in part.
Bt when that which is complete has come,then that which is in part will be done away
This gifts are distributed in part for idification of the church until the complete\whole pefect law of liberty come (Js1:25)
The purpose of this gifts is to confirm the word. (Mark16:20)
Today we have the whole bible(a complete word)
The corinthians are instructed not to forbid to speak in languages 1cor14:39
In order to confirm the word.
But us this generation we hv the complete bible.What is ignored today is that God is still doing those three gifts upon and through the Body of Christ.

The Bible is not complete in the way you define... this is how it's complete and why:



Explaining has been done... there is an entire NEW thread devoted to this topic here: >>Click<<

Seems to me, no more explaining is needed.

LISTENING is what needs to happen.

Paul explained that WHEN that which IS Perfect has come, we will be known... we will be face to face. This is about "personal" relationship. Christ is the Perfect. Also... he states in verse 12 that... "//....BUT THEN...// this is all about when the "perfect" IS come. He died before the canonization/completion of what was to become the Bible, YET... Paul is still led by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to write that he WILL experience the perfect on a PERSONAL level.

v10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Also... this is what the Bible accomplishes for us as a Body of Christ:

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The Bible is "profitable" enough to accomplish all what it specified in these scriptures. Complete... NOT perfect.

As God proves all throughout the world when supernatural tongues, knowledge and prophetic words are manifested in glory to God, people have a choice... either hold to their belief and ignore what God is doing all around them or remove the blindness (man made doctrines, false belief, misunderstanding of scripture due to contextual removal, religion) and SEE that these gifts of the Holy Spirit are still manifested throughout the Body of Christ, all throughout the world.

All you have to do is read the final 2 chapters of John and John tells us that the Bible isn't complete in the manner YOU define. There are many things we are NOT told. There are many mysteries of God that writers were TOLD NOT TO EXPLAIN. Thus we are NOT allowed to see clearly and thus, Paul explains this to us in the 1 Cor 13 scriptures as in seeing dimly.

This truth shows us that the Bible isn't complete as you define, thus... it's not "the perfect".

We are ONLY given "enough" completeness and the reason as explained to us by Paul in 2 Tim 3.

Watchman
Apr 14th 2012, 01:53 PM
My Position has been that Tongues was to warn Israel of the up coming Roman Firestorm of 70 ad and ended before or around that time.

The Position of the tongues speakers here on this board has been that Tongues will die out when Christ returns ( aka they say the gender neutral Perfect = Christ ).
Therefore by providing the PERFECT = Scriptures, which is the context of that passage.
Now they have some explaining to do.
Paul said otherwise. He said the manifestations of the Spirit were given for the profit of all...including tongues. Your gender argument is twisted. The return of Christ is telos...a neuter noun. Christ isn't even a noun, it is an adjective. Your context argument is flawed, too. The immediate context is the maturity brought about by love. Paul would have been doing the Corinthians a disservice to tell them, "When God's book comes out in a couple hundred years, then you'll be fine...you'll all be dead, but so what?" Your idea fits the context like a bull fits in a china shop. You're the one with explaining to do...sheesh. Further, you've not only perfected the use of the non sequitur, you've also refined the use of the circulus in probando.

W :)

Colight
Apr 14th 2012, 04:24 PM
As God proves all throughout the world when supernatural tongues, knowledge and prophetic words are manifested in glory to God, people have a choice... either hold to their belief and ignore what God is doing all around them or remove the blindness (man made doctrines, false belief, misunderstanding of scripture due to contextual removal, religion) and SEE that these gifts of the Holy Spirit are still manifested throughout the Body of Christ, all throughout the world.


If ones faith is strong enough where they have zero desire to go seeking such things, why do you call them blind and full of false doctrine?

The JUST are to live by FAITH.. Period... when we go seeking experiences is when we end up getting into trouble.
If one has total faith with out the side show, why do you see that as wrong?
Why must I be accepting of the side shows?
I don't need or want them, plus my back ground and studies has lead me to believe they are nothing but trouble.
I dont need to SEE any thing.
Gods word is good enough for me.

Matt 8
5 And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him,
6 and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented.”
7 Jesus *said to him, “I will come and heal him.”
8 But the centurion said, “Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9 For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.”
10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.





All you have to do is read the final 2 chapters of John and John tells us that the Bible isn't complete in the manner YOU define. There are many things we are NOT told. There are many mysteries of God that writers were TOLD NOT TO EXPLAIN. Thus we are NOT allowed to see clearly and thus, Paul explains this to us in the 1 Cor 13 scriptures as in seeing dimly.

This truth shows us that the Bible isn't complete as you define, thus... it's not "the perfect".

We are ONLY given "enough" completeness and the reason as explained to us by Paul in 2 Tim 3.

Which is it is complete for what we need to know, there is nothing beyond it that we really need to know.
Therefore we are completely equipped for the tasks we are to face ahead.
Trouble is when Man starts to think God is holding back, That is how the serpent tempted Eve.
We see VERY Clearly, with the doctrine we have today.... As James stated

Or do you risk putting some experience over scripture.. that is not a risk I am willing to gamble on.

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 14th 2012, 04:26 PM
I have some issue with the interpretation of Paul's quote in 1 Cor. 14 that the prophesy in Isaiah was also referring to the end of tongues in 70AD? The Bible DOES NOT SAY THAT. Even if the verse is referring to the destruction of the Temple, it does not say that the gift of tongues would end at that time. 1 Cor. 13 does not say that when a series of letters were put together, the gift of tongues would cease. It is simply saying that gifts without love are pointless. The verse that says tongues will cease when perfection comes, what does that have to do with a series of letters being put together? Are people saying that when the catholic Church put the NT letters together, Paul prophesied this would be the "Perfection"? What about people who didn't have access to the Bible back then? Or even now? I guess in America, we think everyone can go hear the gospel, buy a Bible or log on to blueletterbible and read. The truth is, we need the Holy Spirit to help us pray God's perfect Will, magniy God and give thanks. Paul said that if you give thanks in tongues(1 Cor. 14), you give thanks well. Did we need the catholic church to put the NT letters together to give thanks to God perfectly? Sounds strange to me...

Colight
Apr 14th 2012, 04:28 PM
Paul said otherwise. He said the manifestations of the Spirit were given for the profit of all...including tongues. Your gender argument is twisted. The return of Christ is telos...a neuter noun. Christ isn't even a noun, it is an adjective. Your context argument is flawed, too. The immediate context is the maturity brought about by love. Paul would have been doing the Corinthians a disservice to tell them, "When God's book comes out in a couple hundred years, then you'll be fine...you'll all be dead, but so what?" Your idea fits the context like a bull fits in a china shop. You're the one with explaining to do...sheesh. Further, you've not only perfected the use of the non sequitur, you've also refined the use of the circulus in probando.



W :)

Well you have stated your view, which I completely reject.
The Doctrine needed for the Church was pretty much complete by the time of writings of 2 Timothy and James.
It was not complete at the time 1 Corinthians was written.
Which was under a span of 20 or so years, and with in the life time of Paul... That was not a couple of hundred.

Colight
Apr 14th 2012, 04:47 PM
If... BIG IF... you are sure that you're interpretation of those scriptures are correct, then why can't you call supernatural tongues of the devil?

Honest truth...
Is because you and your mods would ban me if I made such open claims.
This is why I stated they are Counter fit or Worse...

Pride is not the Issue for me, rather the structures of doctrine I know do not allow for me to support it.
If the structures I have come across allow for it, I would support it.
But they do not, therefore I can never support it.

Prayer for me to support false teaching, is not a prayer that probably will not go very high.

As I stated before, Gods word is good enough For me..
I don't need signs, I don't need miracles.

For signs and miracles are not really of faith.

AS Christ stated.

Matt 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah. And he left them, and departed.
Matt 12:39
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah:
Luke 11:29
And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

Following Signs and wonders is a sign of weak faith..faith of one who can be lead astray very easy.

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 14th 2012, 04:54 PM
1Cr 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Cr 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no early Church, latter Church, there is one Church. The gifts are still in operation because the power of the Spirit helps us minister and edify. Romans 8, 1 Cor. 14 talk about how the gift of tongues help us pray for God's perfect Will, for things we don't know to pray about. Ephesians 6 tells us to pray for all saints in all manner of prayer. Jude tells us to build up our selves on our most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit. I remember when God gave me the gift of tongues eight years ago in my bedroom while I was praying. I didn't want tongues because I had a lack of faith and needed the gift so I could believe in God, I simply wanted to receive it because I wanted the prayer language that Paul spoke about in 1 Cor. 14. When we pray in the spirit, we don't speak to man, but to God. We speak "mysteries", or as one translation puts it, "divine secrets".

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 14th 2012, 05:00 PM
Honest truth...
Is because you and your mods would ban me if I made such open claims.
This is why I stated they are Counter fit or Worse...

Pride is not the Issue for me, rather the structures of doctrine I know do not allow for me to support it.
If the structures I have come across allow for it, I would support it.
But they do not, therefore I can never support it.

Prayer for me to support false teaching, is not a prayer that probably will not go very high.

As I stated before, Gods word is good enough For me..
I don't need signs, I don't need miracles.

For signs and miracles are not really of faith.

AS Christ stated.

Matt 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah. And he left them, and departed.
Matt 12:39
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah:
Luke 11:29
And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

Following Signs and wonders is a sign of weak faith..faith of one who can be lead astray very easy.

Jesus said in John 10:38 that if they didn't believe who He was, at least looks at the works He was doing. Acts says that the Apostles confirmed the Word with Signs, Wonders and Miracles.

Its actually good that you don't need signs and miracles to believe in Christ. The Word of God is enough, it's fulfillment of prophecy, scientific facts, accuracy of historical events, and the confirmation of archeological evidence is enough for anyone to see God's Word is different from any other book ever written. I believe the gifts are for our edification, and for the edification of the Body of Christ. Salvation is the Well of Living Water inside of us satisfying our thirst for sin and springing up into everlasting life, and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the River of Living Waters flowing out of our bellies to minister to others.

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 14th 2012, 05:22 PM
From what I understand, even Macarthur doesn't believe 1 Cor. 13 is referring to the "scripture cannon". His commentary reads, "that idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians. Nowhere in this letter does he mention or allude to such a scriptural completion. The Corinthian believers would have taken Paul's meaning in the plainest and simplest way: as a reference to spiritual and moral perfection…By process of elimination, the only possibility for the perfect is the eternal heavenly state of believers."

Slug1
Apr 14th 2012, 05:33 PM
Following Signs and wonders is a sign of weak faith..faith of one who can be lead astray very easy.I will have to disagree because Jesus promised that signs and wonders WILL follow, those OF FAITH!

Colight
Apr 14th 2012, 05:36 PM
From what I understand, even Macarthur doesn't believe 1 Cor. 13 is referring to the "scripture cannon". His commentary reads, "that idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians. Nowhere in this letter does he mention or allude to such a scriptural completion. The Corinthian believers would have taken Paul's meaning in the plainest and simplest way: as a reference to spiritual and moral perfection…By process of elimination, the only possibility for the perfect is the eternal heavenly state of believers."

1St) why would I care what Macarthur thinks?

2Nd)

1 cor 13

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect ( Mature or complete ) comes, the partial will be done away.( vs 8 )
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child(Tongues), think like a child( gift of prophesy) , reason like a child( gift of knowledge); when I became a man( Mature or complete), I did away with childish things ( vs 8 ).

The perfect or complete is in reference to the knowledge that is no longer in part and prophecy that is no longer in part.
This is what has occurred in our current bible.

The Completed scriptures are here, therefore these Gifts of Knowledge and prophecy are no longer with us.

Colight
Apr 14th 2012, 05:39 PM
I will have to disagree because Jesus promised that signs and wonders WILL follow, those OF FAITH!

Well I am sure if you look ... you will find them.
For me.. that is not something I look for.

Slug1
Apr 14th 2012, 05:42 PM
Matt 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah. And he left them, and departed.
Matt 12:39
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah:
Luke 11:29
And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

I suggested for you to do a study of these scriptures... they don't mean what you say they mean.

Jesus was pointing out that He discerned the reason for them all asking for Him to do a sign/wonder was to CONVICT Him of doing something wrong. So He called them wicked due to their motive for seeking a sign/wonder.

If Christians came to your church and gave a prophetic word of edification and your attitude was the same... to USE what God did through them (sign/wonder) AGAINST them... you'd be JUST AS wicked as they were all back then.

Slug1
Apr 14th 2012, 05:45 PM
Well I am sure if you look ... you will find them.
For me.. that is not something I look for.You don't HAVE to look... God provides them for those who are faithful. The matter at heart is about... ACCEPTING what God provides to glorify Himself.

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 14th 2012, 06:07 PM
1St) why would I care what Macarthur thinks?

2Nd)

1 cor 13

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect ( Mature or complete ) comes, the partial will be done away.( vs 8 )
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child(Tongues), think like a child( gift of prophesy) , reason like a child( gift of knowledge); when I became a man( Mature or complete), I did away with childish things ( vs 8 ).

The perfect or complete is in reference to the knowledge that is no longer in part and prophecy that is no longer in part.
This is what has occurred in our current bible.

The Completed scriptures are here, therefore these Gifts of Knowledge and prophecy are no longer with us.

Paul said right after in the next chapter that he was thankful he spoke in tongues more than all of them. So Paul contradicted himself saying when he became a man, he put away tongues, yet in the next chapter he is thankful he spoke in tongues more than them? And he is also saying he's thankful he "speaks as a child"? Read the context in full, he is talking about love being the motivation for the gifts. Christians who do not have love are childish and immature babes in Christ, not Christians who speak in tongues, prophecy and use the gift of knowledge.

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 14th 2012, 06:09 PM
[QUOTE=Colight;2834439]1St) why would I care what Macarthur thinks?

true

Slug1
Apr 14th 2012, 07:17 PM
Paul said right after in the next chapter that he was thankful he spoke in tongues more than all of them. So Paul contradicted himself saying when he became a man, he put away tongues, yet in the next chapter he is thankful he spoke in tongues more than them? And he is also saying he's thankful he "speaks as a child"? Read the context in full, he is talking about love being the motivation for the gifts. Christians who do not have love are childish and immature babes in Christ, not Christians who speak in tongues, prophecy and use the gift of knowledge.All this has been illuminated for him in previous posts and replies... it's now a matter of accepting the truth of scripture so LISTENING TO the scriptures can enable the Holy Spirit to make change.

I agree and pointed out, Paul is NOT double-minded, nor beaten around like a wave on an ocean. He will not say in one breath, tongues is childish and in the next breath, THANK GOD for the fact that he presently speaks in tongues MORE then who he is writing and discipling concerning the proper order and usage of the gift of tongues.

I explained that CONTEXT is what shows the truth of the MEANING of the scriptures... yet Colight presently continues to pull out a scripture here, and a scripture there and arrange them into what he wants to believe.

I did the same when I was in bondage to the cassationist doctrine. I even arranged them the same way that he presently does when I wasn't listening either. I said all the same words and had the same attitude as him. Its what bondage to that doctrine causes and turns Christians into.

Only God and the truth of the Bible will freedom from that doctrine be available.

Took a lot of prayer by others for the process to freedom to begin... so that's why I posted that it's reached that point because proper context has been laid out many times all throughout this thread.

Now it's about listening and accepting God's truth.

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 14th 2012, 07:47 PM
I see both sides of the argument...honestly, at the end of the day. do the ones who believe in the gift of tongues believe those who do not speak in tongues are of the devil, and those who do not speak in tongues believe that those who do are full of the devil? Is it possible to have fellowship with one another? Some of the ministers i love to listen to the most do not, to my knowledge, speak in tongues and perhaps believe in it. If I have learned anything from this thread, it's that there needs to be a walls of division broke down for believers to fellowship with one another regarding this topic. Forgive me If I have seemed ungodly or perhaps reaching for discussions that cause division among the brethren. C.S. Lewis said something to the effect that division among the brethren hinders those on the outside looking in from coming into the fold.

Watchman
Apr 14th 2012, 08:27 PM
Well you have stated your view, which I completely reject.
The Doctrine needed for the Church was pretty much complete by the time of writings of 2 Timothy and James.
It was not complete at the time 1 Corinthians was written.
Which was under a span of 20 or so years, and with in the life time of Paul... That was not a couple of hundred.
It was circa 300 when the 'canon' was assembled and 'complete.' You have given no credible reasons why you believe the perfect is the Bible...you just keep on stating that, and building upon that premise sans proof. Oh well...

Slug1
Apr 14th 2012, 09:35 PM
do the ones who believe in the gift of tongues believe those who do not speak in tongues are of the devil, How could this thought even enter the mind of a Christian, let alone be expressed as a possibility to even be a thought in any Christian's thought process??


Is it possible to have fellowship with one another? I don't see there would be any trouble. I'm in a Pentecostal church. For the life of me, when God moved me to this church I questioned Him as to... WHY? Of the 150 members (on the books presently, when I was told to move to this church, there we only about 20 on the books), hmmmm, presently about ten are gifted with the gift of tongues and only 2 are gifted with the gift of interpretation of tongues. Or that I know have been used by God in the manifestation of interpretation.

So, would a person think the rest can't be fellowshipped with? In all my years of relationship with Christ, fellowshipping with Christians who do not believe in any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit... fellowshipping has not been hindered in anyway. Not before when I didn't believe in the gifts and today, even though I do believe in ALL the gifts of the Holy Spirit fully in operation through the Body of Christ today.

Now when I was bound in Cessationism, I could not and WOULD not have ANYTHING to do with Christians who DID believed in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Back then, ONLY with those who where likewise in bondage to Cessationism. If I met a Christian who wasn't sure and I could not convince them that the gifts ended... then I didn't want to have anything to do with them either.

This fruit alone and Colight even expressed it... JUST how I felt back then when I was bound in that doctrine! I would NOT go to any church where there was ANY possibility that the Holy Spirit MIGHT manifest supernaturally. As Colight said, any who joked to me that they'd tie me to a pew or lock the doors... I would have the same thoughts that he expressed in a post awhile back.

That fruit of what the Cessationist doctrine causes is clearly not Godly based on my personal thoughts/experiences and Colights as well based on his comments in this thread.


Some of the ministers i love to listen to the most do not, to my knowledge, speak in tongues and perhaps believe in it. Same here and I could not imagine how speaking in tongues or not would be a factor in a choice to listen to a person who is speaking/writing etc.



If I have learned anything from this thread, it's that there needs to be a walls of division broke down for believers to fellowship with one another regarding this topic.

Hooah! Check my last line of my signature... this is a man-made problem and man has to set aside his pride if God is to be allowed to fix it. Or, we wait till Jesus returns and then everything will be perfect as He does away from denominations that suit us.


Forgive me If I have seemed ungodly or perhaps reaching for discussions that cause division among the brethren. C.S. Lewis said something to the effect that division among the brethren hinders those on the outside looking in from coming into the fold.Which is why members of this messageboard continue to post and reply with scripture in contextual truth and point out when something is not in contextual truth.

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 14th 2012, 10:32 PM
How could this thought even enter the mind of a Christian, let alone be expressed as a possibility to even be a thought in any Christian's thought process??

Sorry, i know that sounds absurd but you would just have to go to some of the churches i'v been to lol

Colight
Apr 14th 2012, 11:38 PM
Paul said right after in the next chapter that he was thankful he spoke in tongues more than all of them. So Paul contradicted himself saying when he became a man, he put away tongues, yet in the next chapter he is thankful he spoke in tongues more than them? And he is also saying he's thankful he "speaks as a child"? Read the context in full, he is talking about love being the motivation for the gifts. Christians who do not have love are childish and immature babes in Christ, not Christians who speak in tongues, prophecy and use the gift of knowledge.
1 Cor 3
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


The whole Church of Corinth is a carnal, immature Church. Yet they spoke in tongues. Had the gifts of Prophecy and Knowledge.
Why?
Because in that day they was legit gifts.
They are not gifts given to day.

Colight
Apr 14th 2012, 11:42 PM
It was circa 300 when the 'canon' was assembled and 'complete.' You have given no credible reasons why you believe the perfect is the Bible...you just keep on stating that, and building upon that premise sans proof. Oh well...


Ok..
I will take Gods word over your "timeline"
In James it stated they had a very clear view of the word, which is the law of liberty.

So was the author of one of the books of the bible lying or what?

Colight
Apr 14th 2012, 11:58 PM
If Christians came to your church and gave a prophetic word of edification and your attitude was the same... to USE what God did through them (sign/wonder) AGAINST them... you'd be JUST AS wicked as they were all back then.

Except for one fact,

We are Command to live by faith, not seek signs or wonders.
There are no signs we are to look for we are to live each day onto God until the rapture or death.
They had the messiah that was fore told.
The cannon is closed, there is no prophetic message they could say that would be worth hearing.
Therefore for the result of such a event would be a fables.

We are to immerse in sound doctrine.. not some visiting side show..
Frankly, my pastor would never give them the floor, it is his flock to lead.

2 tim 4
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Slug1
Apr 15th 2012, 12:03 AM
Ok..
I will take Gods word over your "timeline"
In James it stated they had a very clear view of the word, which is the law of liberty.

So was the author of one of the books of the bible lying or what?The point you're ignoring is when James or Paul, Peter etc "wrote or spoke", it was a bunch of letters and messages. The "Bible" was canonized MANY years AFTER their deaths. Even if they had lived to ripe ages of 100 years old, the "BIBLE" as it is today wasn't "the Bible" until after all the stuff written was chosen as worthy to become the Bible.

Much has been LEFT out, changed, added by man and translated and re-translated many times over and this is what SOME call... "the perfect".

Even if the "first and original" Bible was "complete"... it was STILL many years after any of the Apostles were physically dust in the ground and only bones left behind.

Now... Paul speaks in a way that he has a RELATIONSHIP with the "perfect" and WHEN he is face to face, he will know AS HE IS KNOWN.

The Perfect is Jesus.

You can ignore the timing of the Bible but a google search and about 30 seconds of research will lead you to many sites that can help you see that the Bible was completed MANY years after all the Apostles had died off.

Question since I missed it I guess, which James scripture are you referring to? And in what context are you understanding it?

Slug1
Apr 15th 2012, 12:09 AM
Except for one fact, We are Command to live by faith, not seek signs or wonders. AMEN!

Signs and wonders FOLLOW the faithful. They don't have to go look FOR them.
There are no signs we are to look for we are to live each day onto God until the rapture or death.
They had the messiah that was fore told.AMEN
The cannon is closed, there is no prophetic message they could say that would be worth hearing.Prophetic words are for EDIFICATION according to the instructions that Paul has given to the Body of Christ. Prophetic words are not additions to scripture. Would you like an example of what I mean?
Therefore for the result of such a event would be a fables.Only for those who don't accept the edification that is provided by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.
We are to immerse in sound doctrine.. not some visiting side show..When the Holy Spirit manifests in power, it is supernatural... only those who don't accept the movement of the Holy Spirit upon or through the Body of Christ are wicked enough to call the source of supernatural tongues a "side show".
Frankly, my pastor would never give them the floor, it is his flock to lead.Thus the reason the Holy Spirit is NOT allowed to move supernaturally in MANY churches today. MAN thinks they are in charge and anything not DONE man's way will be considered "out of order".
2 tim 4 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.satan used scripture against Jesus falsely... also. It still don't work when not applied properly or in context.

warfrog
Apr 15th 2012, 12:36 AM
Am i wrong to understand that simply Paul was speaking of when we change?
When mortality puts on immortality and corruption becomes incorruptible.
Thats when all the gifts will cease but love will always continue even when all the gifts cease?

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 15th 2012, 12:37 AM
1 Cor 3
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


The whole Church of Corinth is a carnal, immature Church. Yet they spoke in tongues. Had the gifts of Prophecy and Knowledge.
Why?
Because in that day they was legit gifts.
They are not gifts given to day.

They were carnal in the aspect of the "fruit" of the Spirit, not the gifts. One can excercise gifts, yet not have the fruit of the Spirit. Look at Matthew 7 at the ones who stand before Christ saying they had done mighty miracles, yet they did not "know" Him. Samson was a manhor, yet he operated under the power of the Spirit of God. We do not judge gifts, but fruits. It's not man's charasmatics, but character that we judge.

There are still carnal churches today. Can you give me Scripture saying that when 1 Cor. 13 refers to "perfect" it is speaking of the NT books being put together by the catholic church, and why you believe that the fact that James does not mention the gift of tongues that it is no longer available to us, even though he mentions the gift of healing(call for the elders of the Church and they will anoint you with oil...)

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 15th 2012, 12:39 AM
Am i wrong to understand that simply Paul was speaking of when we change?
When mortality puts on immortality and corruption becomes incorruptible.
Thats when all the gifts will cease but love will always continue even when all the gifts cease?

If you read the context as a whole, that's exactly what I'm getting. Even John Macarthur, who does not believe the gifts are in operation today as in the book of Acts, does not believe that these verses are referring to the removal of gifts when the NT books would be put together. Paul doesn't say that anywhere in this chapter.

Watchman
Apr 15th 2012, 12:42 AM
Ok..
I will take Gods word over your "timeline"
In James it stated they had a very clear view of the word, which is the law of liberty.

So was the author of one of the books of the bible lying or what?
I have no reason to answer this until you show evidence of your opinion! The Bible is the law of liberty, eh? Let's have some BCV for proof, please. BTW, why did you ignore the overwhelming majority of passages using teleios that differ from your pov? You simply ignored the vast majority of passages that do NOT support you. Why?

warfrog
Apr 15th 2012, 12:48 AM
If you read the context as a whole, that's exactly what I'm getting. Even John Macarthur, who does not believe the gifts are in operation today as in the book of Acts, does not believe that these verses are referring to the removal of gifts when the NT books would be put together. Paul doesn't say that anywhere in this chapter.

Simply understanding the Word is a gift, that in itself end's this discussion. If gifts were ceased now, or since whenever back in the day, were all clueless and blind, none of you or I know what im talking about and were all liars and hypocrites wandering in darkness.

So pick one, have the gifts ceased, are they un-needed or was Paul speaking about when Jesus collect His at His return when we all change and are resurrected as He was resurrected.

Id also like to point out that the Holy Spirit is directly called the "Helper" and that no man is Christ unless he has the Holy Spirit.

So what is the point of a Helper if we need no help? Why would it be required to have the Helper if we are His if help is useless or ceased?

Watchman
Apr 15th 2012, 12:51 AM
Warfrog,

You've struck a chord! This thread isn't really about tongues. It is actually about whether the Holy Spirit still manifests Himself through the saints for our edification and profit...or whether we simply read and do the scriptures. This thread is about the power of God...which some seem to be denying!

blessings,

Watchman :)

Slug1
Apr 15th 2012, 01:31 AM
I have no reason to answer this until you show evidence of your opinion! The Bible is the law of liberty, eh? Let's have some BCV for proof, please. BTW, why did you ignore the overwhelming majority of passages using teleios that differ from your pov? You simply ignored the vast majority of passages that do NOT support you. Why?When I was in bondage to the Cessationist doctrine, all the scriptures I was forced to ignore are those all throughout this thread.

That is what bondage does... I would read those scriptures and my eyes were turned away from their truth in the context of the Bible's context. All I was ABLE to view was the few that are allowed to be included in the doctrine. Unfortunately, since I was IN BONDAGE, I was completely unable to open my eyes to the truth of the Bible, as it is for any in bondage to that doctrine.

I always IGNORED the scriptures when they were explained to me in proper context.

One thing I didn't do... I didn't ignore that the Bible wasn't "a Bible" until many years later after all the Gospels, Epistles and OT writings had passed through the various Counsels that selected what was OK to be in today's Bible.

I never followed the line that Colight is following in determining the closing of the Bible/Cannon.

I actually don't understand his line of reason to even say that the cannon was closed when he thinks/ how he thinks it was.

Zack702
Apr 15th 2012, 02:41 AM
It is because believers who have full faith can receive miracles.

And they can see miracles and they can hear miracles and they can feel miracles.

But we know that they are saved allready by faith in Jesus.

Therefor these things are not beneficial to help those who have not yet any faith in Jesus.

But love is what is beneficial towards them that they might recieve salvation and gain faith that way.

Some people readily believe in Jesus as though they were choosen.

Others go many years rejecting and in one day of there old age are converted because they accept love which is ever present no matter how suppressed it may seam.

Watchman
Apr 15th 2012, 02:42 AM
I never followed the line that Colight is following in determining the closing of the Bible/Cannon.

I actually don't understand his line of reason to even say that the cannon was closed when he thinks/ how he thinks it was.
Same here. Since he declined to address this in the thread dedicated to that topic, perhaps he'd lay it out here, line by line, for us to peruse?

Colight
Apr 15th 2012, 03:06 PM
Question since I missed it I guess, which James scripture are you referring to? And in what context are you understanding it?

Yet somehow James had enough of the PERFECT law of liberty to seems it quite Clear...

James 1
22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror
24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.
25 But whoever looks intently into the PERFECT LAW that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

Colight
Apr 15th 2012, 03:16 PM
One can excercise gifts, yet not have the fruit of the Spirit. Look at Matthew 7 at the ones who stand before Christ saying they had done mighty miracles, yet they did not "know" Him.
Those in Matthew 7 are never was believers..
The Spirit is never given the body of a unbeliever as a temple.



There are still carnal churches today. Can you give me Scripture saying that when 1 Cor. 13 refers to "perfect" it is speaking of the NT books being put together by the catholic church, and why you believe that the fact that James does not mention the gift of tongues that it is no longer available to us, even though he mentions the gift of healing(call for the elders of the Church and they will anoint you with oil...)

I never stated any thing about the catholic church, James was written before 70ad. They had the Word, called the law of liberty
In pauls later letter to Timothy.. He is quite solid on scripture being used to Perfectly equip us, In 1 Cor the word was not complete enough to equip us, so they used the Gifts of Prophecy and Knowledge to tide them over until it was..

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Watchman
Apr 15th 2012, 03:30 PM
Colight,

Please state scriptural basis for the idea that the perfect = the Bible. I realize you're dodging me, so please state it for everyone else. Simply referencing James' letter doesn't actually make a connection at all.

Thank you.

Watchman

Colight
Apr 15th 2012, 03:32 PM
why did you ignore the overwhelming majority of passages using teleios that differ from your pov? You simply ignored the vast majority of passages that do NOT support you. Why?

They are not in the context of the discussion, so why bother with them?
Now if you wish to post more solid doctrine ( the lessons behind the verses, I may engage)
I really dont partake in jumping to and fro on this verse and that verse like a drunk staggering down the street.

Here is a start..

Once more, Tongues ceased because they had a meaning..
That meaning Is expressively conveyed is that the serve as a SIGN to the unbelievers, and directly to the unbelievers of Israel.
Sign was stated that their end as a client nation to God was coming and the Gentiles will now be the bearers of the word.
Doctrinally that is the use for Valid Tongues.
When that judgement occurred, there was No longer a need for that sign, so it was done away.

See that is a very simple and easy to understand explanation as to why I dont see tongues as valid today.
And it is based off scriptures..

Now It is your turn to give a easy to understand reason why this is invalid.
OR
You can give a easy to understand reason why tongues are valid.

Try doing so with out posting verses, yet have verses on stand by if certain points should be questioned.

Colight
Apr 15th 2012, 03:43 PM
Colight,

Please state scriptural basis for the idea that the perfect = the Bible. I realize you're dodging me, so please state it for everyone else. Simply referencing James' letter doesn't actually make a connection at all.

Thank you.

Watchman

The Bible is what we call it today, They called the same scriptures, the Law of Liberty.

James 1
25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


Now do you believe there is some other law or book we should look into to Gage our self and our spiritual growth?
Is there any thing else that is complete with what we need to Know, that is complete in Prophecy?

Colight
Apr 15th 2012, 04:10 PM
AMEN!
Prophetic words are for EDIFICATION according to the instructions that Paul has given to the Body of Christ. Prophetic words are not additions to scripture. Would you like an example of what I mean?
Only for those who don't accept the edification that is provided by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.


Is it needed in a state of faith?
Nope.
Therefore counterfeit.


When the Holy Spirit manifests in power, it is supernatural... only those who don't accept the movement of the Holy Spirit upon or through the Body of Christ are wicked enough to call the source of supernatural tongues a "side show".

So I have to accept that side show or be called wicked...
Paul called it Madness... when it was done out of order in his day, When the gift was valid..Was Paul wicked?

1 Corinthians 14:23
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Am I good if I join into this chatter session?
I am good if I embrace it, even when every fiber of my being screams it is false?
Now this is where you error..
I am totally free to reject it, when you call me wicked for doing so, you are making a judgement call that is not yours to make.

This is the EXACT same Mind set that caused the INQUISITION,,,, and to me shows the real mindset behind this movement.


When Saved7 Stated she knew some woman who made false tongues, was that a side show or the real thing when it was false?
Or was it a show till she got it right? How was it known she got it right?
Should a christian respect and be accepting the of false Doctrines.. Like the worship of Mary, or indulgences, or False tongues?
If I reject the worship of Mary, even if it is done in the spirit.. Is that wicked too?


Thus the reason the Holy Spirit is NOT allowed to move supernaturally in MANY churches today. MAN thinks they are in charge and anything not DONE man's way will be considered "out of order".

Thank God for that.
This is the reason why he made Pastors able lead the FLOCKs independently of each other.
If one goes bad, then it does not spread to the rest ( one reason why denominations not really that valid )

Watchman
Apr 15th 2012, 04:54 PM
They are not in the context of the discussion, so why bother with them?
Now if you wish to post more solid doctrine ( the lessons behind the verses, I may engage)
I really dont partake in jumping to and fro on this verse and that verse like a drunk staggering down the street.

Here is a start..

Once more, Tongues ceased because they had a meaning..
That meaning Is expressively conveyed is that the serve as a SIGN to the unbelievers, and directly to the unbelievers of Israel.
Sign was stated that their end as a client nation to God was coming and the Gentiles will now be the bearers of the word.
Doctrinally that is the use for Valid Tongues.
When that judgement occurred, there was No longer a need for that sign, so it was done away.

See that is a very simple and easy to understand explanation as to why I dont see tongues as valid today.
And it is based off scriptures..

Now It is your turn to give a easy to understand reason why this is invalid.
OR
You can give a easy to understand reason why tongues are valid.

Try doing so with out posting verses, yet have verses on stand by if certain points should be questioned.
Thak you, Colight.

Tongues did, and do, in fact, have a meaning. They are for the profit and edification of the church, a sign for unbelievers, and they are for some prayers. All these are found in the passages we've been looking at in 1 Corinthians 13. Yes, the OT stated they were for the Jews, as Paul said, but he also said they are a sign for unbelievers. He was writing to Gentile churches, so the point about Jews is moot. A reason I argue for the continuation of tongues is that they are part of a larger picture. Paul compared the different manifestations to the different functions of different parts of the human body. The purpose of this comparison is to show that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are as vital to the proper functioning of the body of Christ as are the different parts of the human body vital to its proper functioning.

As for the preterist presumption that AD 70 has significance re: this topic, that will be left unaddressed simply because that is your opinion. Should you wish to discuss preterism, I'm sure some here will be glad to oblige.

Watchman

Watchman
Apr 15th 2012, 05:02 PM
The Bible is what we call it today, They called the same scriptures, the Law of Liberty.

James 1
25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
This is the thing difficult thing about communicating with you, Colight. You're making authoritative statements based upon your opinion. Nowhere does scripture refer to itself as the law of liberty. Nowhere is there a command that all the scriptures be compiled, neither is there a comprehensive list of them. If James is talking about the "completed canon" of the Bible, then what about the writings that occurred after ~48 a.d.? You've taken a phrase of James' words, and have arbitrarily stated that "they called the same scriptures the law of Liberty." That is an unsubstantiated opinion. Have you other evidence that is more compelling?



Now do you believe there is some other law or book we should look into to Gage our self and our spiritual growth?
Is there any thing else that is complete with what we need to Know, that is complete in Prophecy?
Absolutely, yes! If we have all we need in scripture, then why were men given to equip the saints for the work of ministry UNTIL the body grows into Christ's full stature? If all we need is found in scripture, then why are we made one Spirit with the Lord and why are we told to follow His inner guidance? The idea of the sufficiency of scripture carries with it, in most circles, the idea that we have the ability to read and do perfectly. It is a fleshly concept. The scriptures do, indeed, tell us how to be equipped, but they do not directly equip us. God does that via His Spirit.

We are told in the OT, that the Lord orders the steps of a righteous man. Paul said that we are created unto good works, prepared in advance, in which for those of us in Christ to walk. So we have order(timing, sequence) and we have premade works. These will be different for each saint, just as the functions of the body are different and must work at the appropriate times, in the appropriate sequences, at the appropriate tasks. Scripture does not contain this list and its order for us, and even if it did, we would fail as miserably as did the Israelites in keeping the law of Moses. The leading, guidance, teaching, enlightening of the Holy Spirit cannot be set aside in favor of the Bible.

W

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 15th 2012, 06:30 PM
The scripture reference in 1 cor. 14 where Paul mentions the Scripture in Isaiah, reading it in context, seems to be an example of God ushering in the new covenant with the gift of tongues, yet the Jews would still not believe. It is a sign to the unbeliever, yet no where does it even mention the temple being destroyed ending the gift on tongues. That would have meant the gentiles would have started speaking Jewish in the Old Testament...

As for the verse in James mentioning the perfect law of liberty being what Paul was referring to, then we must disregard every Writing ever recorded since then since the "Scripture cannon" was closed. What's sad is everyone who didn't have access to the letters of the NT and everyone today who does not have access to the Bible...how does this apply to them?

Bottom line, gift of tongues has more than one purpose, and the Scripture doesn't even specifically refer to the destruction of the temple after Christ's death ending the gift of tongues.

One more thing...how is someone accepting a miracle from God not doing something in faith? Heck, whether God does a miracle or not, I still trust Him. This sounds like a copout. Miracles are not necessarily to help one's faith, but a means for God to move. A miracle is simply an act of God. I have to do what the Bible says, and if Jude telle me to edify myself by praying in the Holy Spirit, I'm going to do that. I am sorry the side shows of cults and ignorant churches has gave you a bad taste for the Spiritual gifts of today. Your assumptions of the Scriptures is one thing, but remember, the pharisees also said that Christ's manifestations were of the devil and counterfeit. They were wrong

Watchman
Apr 15th 2012, 06:34 PM
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hebrews 11:4 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Given such a great cloud of witnesses to the uses of teleios, and its deriviatives, how can you possibly pick out one verse, or two, and apply it to mean the Bible? Eisegesis, that’s how. Not one of Paul's uses of teleios references the completed canon of the Bible...not ONE!

Next, you’ve yet to prove that the Corinthians would even have a notion of the Bible. The word, scripture, does not appear in the OT, but refers to it in all but one instance in the NT. The Bible, as we know it, is NOT prophesied in OT scripture, so the Corinthians surely would NOT have understood the perfect to be something that would come nearly 300 years after their collective demise.

Finally, the perfect law of liberty can be construed to be either the law of Moses or the law of Christ. I prefer the latter. The law of Christ is love…period. It has never been the scriptures. Your idea that the scriptures somehow equip, mature, prepare, fit…or whatever descriptor you want to use…people for works of service is not the meaning Paul conveyed to Timothy. The scriptures tell us the Holy Spirit will be put in us (see Ezekiel 36). The NT scriptures tell us the Holy Spirit will guide and teach us. Yes, He can, and does, use the scriptures…but they are NOT His only means of working.


BTW, why did you ignore the overwhelming majority of passages using teleios that differ from your pov? You simply ignored the vast majority of passages that do NOT support you. Why?

They are not in the context of the discussion, so why bother with them?
Now if you wish to post more solid doctrine ( the lessons behind the verses, I may engage)
I really dont partake in jumping to and fro on this verse and that verse like a drunk staggering down the street.
The verses posted above absolutely have bearing on this discussion. Paul is talking to the Corinthians about perfection coming...and Jesus commanded us to be perfect as our Father is perfect. Our purpose and goal is to be perfect. Each of those verses speaks about perfecting of the saints, of the Lord Jesus while on earth, or of people who believe God. Paul is also talking about perfecting, maturing, completing the saints in 1 Corinthians. You simply reject them out of hand without giving a reason, at least, without giving a real reason. One of the major themes in Paul's writing was presenting the saints as teleios.

The context of 1 Corinthians 12-14 is maturity, growth, completion of the saints to the glory of God. In fact, when Paul began his teaching on the gifts of the Spirit, in chapter 12, he compared them to the human body's parts and proper functioning. Why would the parts of the body, and with them their functions, be done away simply because scripture was partially revealed? The body of Christ must still function and nowhere does scripture claim to take the place of the body's workings. In chapter 13, Paul began by showing that loveless use of the gifts is unprofitable, then taught about love, then showed the maturity brought about by love. Children are selfish; mature adults love selflessly. The coming of the perfect coincides with Ephesians chapter 4, wherein Paul stated that the equipping gifts were given to the church UNTIL the body has grown unto Christ's full stature...and the body builds itself up in love. When the gifts are used selflessly, ie for others' benefit, then they are being used in a loving manner and the body grows closer to the Head. There is no drunken reeling and staggering to what I'm saying. It is quite methodical and scriptural.

Watchman :)

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 15th 2012, 07:49 PM
Those in Matthew 7 are never was believers..
The Spirit is never given the body of a unbeliever as a temple.

So Judas was not with the disciples when they casted out devils and healed the sick?

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 15th 2012, 07:52 PM
[QUOTE=Colight;2834623]He is quite solid on scripture being used to Perfectly equip us, In 1 Cor the word was not complete enough to equip us, so they used the Gifts of Prophecy and Knowledge to tide them over until it was..

But you agree that the other gifts are still in operation, except tongues and interpretation, knowledge, prophecy and miracles? James(in which you state the perfect law of liberty is what Paul is referring to in 1 Cor. 13) states to pray for the sick that they might recover. So, you do believe in the gifts of Healing, right?

Watchman
Apr 15th 2012, 11:49 PM
From what I understand, even Macarthur doesn't believe 1 Cor. 13 is referring to the "scripture cannon". His commentary reads, "that idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians. Nowhere in this letter does he mention or allude to such a scriptural completion. The Corinthian believers would have taken Paul's meaning in the plainest and simplest way: as a reference to spiritual and moral perfection…By process of elimination, the only possibility for the perfect is the eternal heavenly state of believers."
I don't agree with bro MacArthur on some things, but he is precisely correct in this case. Paul was speaking of a future time, a future state of the church, and a perfect relationship...one that is face to face. The scriptures don't cause us to know as we are known. Know what? Know who? The scriptures don't cause us to know God. They can help us know ABOUT Him, but only Jesus, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge can reveal our Father to us intimately. What was said in the thread about this topic is true: too much scripture and you dry up--too much Spirit and you blow up--there has to be a balance. If the scriptures are all we need, then why, upon His ascension, did Jesus give gifts to men for the equipping of the saints? These gifts (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers) were given UNTIL the body, building itself up in love, has reached the full stature of Christ. The church is nowhere near that now, and will need some supernatural help to get there. That is why the scriptures say, He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth. Things will be so bad in the end, that unless the Lord cuts it short, even the elect will perish. We need the equippers, we need the gifts, too, for they were given for our profit, for our building up, for our encouragement, and exhortation. We need the manifest working and power of the Holy Spirit. We need the scriptures, too...desperately. What we do not need is folks trying to short-change us into believing something God gave as a gift is not good, and is in fact, evil at this present time. What we do not need is folks trying to sell us on working with scripture just as did the Israelites did the law. Read and do has never, and will never, succeed.

blessings,

Watchman :)

Watchman
Apr 16th 2012, 12:03 AM
This was brought up in the other thread, and bears repeating here:

i agree. I also think 1C1310-12 fit very nicely thought wise with 1 John 3:1-2
1 John 3:1-2 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24,49-54 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end (telos-neuter gender), when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death...And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

These passages also fit together nicely, along with 1 Corinthians 13:10-12 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

blessings,

Watchman :)

Slug1
Apr 16th 2012, 02:22 AM
This was brought up in the other thread, and bears repeating here:

1 John 3:1-2 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24,49-54 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end (telos-neuter gender), when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death...And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

These passages also fit together nicely, along with 1 Corinthians 13:10-12 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

blessings,

Watchman :)HOOAH!

The 1 Cor 13:10-12 scripture is clearly divided with the 1 John 3:1-2 in showing us that the perfect is ALL ABOUT Christ, not the Bible.

Colight
Apr 16th 2012, 02:40 PM
Thak you, Colight.

Tongues did, and do, in fact, have a meaning. They are for the profit and edification of the church, a sign for unbelievers, and they are for some prayers. All these are found in the passages we've been looking at in 1 Corinthians 13. Yes, the OT stated they were for the Jews, as Paul said, but he also said they are a sign for unbelievers. He was writing to Gentile churches, so the point about Jews is moot. A reason I argue for the continuation of tongues is that they are part of a larger picture. Paul compared the different manifestations to the different functions of different parts of the human body. The purpose of this comparison is to show that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are as vital to the proper functioning of the body of Christ as are the different parts of the human body vital to its proper functioning.

As for the preterist presumption that AD 70 has significance re: this topic, that will be left unaddressed simply because that is your opinion. Should you wish to discuss preterism, I'm sure some here will be glad to oblige.

Watchman

I am in India and away from my specific notes on the subject to give you the exactness I feel I need to address you on this,
I will have to defer for a few weeks till I return.
Quick things though..


Why do you think prayer in regular language is not as good as a prayer in special language.. since God knows the heart...??
Exactly HOW does tongues edify the church?
I feel the point of Jews has merit, since they was the providers of the Gospel Until Pentecost.

Colight
Apr 16th 2012, 02:49 PM
But you agree that the other gifts are still in operation, except tongues and interpretation, knowledge, prophecy and miracles? James(in which you state the perfect law of liberty is what Paul is referring to in 1 Cor. 13) states to pray for the sick that they might recover. So, you do believe in the gifts of Healing, right?

God will heal who he will.


Healing being linked to a man...It Seems healing was more of a Apostle level gift.
And there is example in scripture of where Paul did not heal some of his fellow ministers.
Since there was only 12 Apostles..
I would tend to be skeptical of those who claim they have that gift, but it is not one the I can really go into depth to refute.
( I have not really dug into it, nor personally encountered any who claimed that gift.)

Colight
Apr 16th 2012, 02:54 PM
So Judas was not with the disciples when they casted out devils and healed the sick?

What passage are you referring to.. where they did that?

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 16th 2012, 03:51 PM
God will heal who he will.


Healing being linked to a man...It Seems healing was more of a Apostle level gift.
James said to call for the elders of the Church to anoint the sick.


And there is example in scripture of where Paul did not heal some of his fellow ministers.
Since there was only 12 Apostles..

The man who laid his hands on Paul in Acts was not an Apostle, but Paul received his sight.

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 16th 2012, 04:00 PM
What passage are you referring to.. where they did that?

Mark 6:7 And He called the twelve to Himself, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits. So they went out and preached that people should repent. And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them” (Mark 6:12-13). Matt. 10:1 adds “ …and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.”

Slug1
Apr 16th 2012, 05:45 PM
Healing being linked to a man...It Seems healing was more of a Apostle level gift.Philip, Timothy, Ananias, ALL the 72 who went out to spread the message that the Kingdom is at hand, ANY elders who God has anointed for leadership in churches... NONE of them are Apostles.

Yet God moves through them and heals others.

Miracles are NOT limited to ONLY the Apostles... miracles are limited to ONLY God and He'll use anyone in submission to Him and to allowing of the Holy Spirit to move in them and provide the empowerment to do God's will.

Miracles are NOT limited to position nor title in any church.

Miracles are LIMITED by faith, belief, and submission to God's will and the prompting of and empowerment of, the Holy Spirit.

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 16th 2012, 05:59 PM
I think we got off topic...

Colight, are you from India?

Watchman
Apr 16th 2012, 11:43 PM
I am in India and away from my specific notes on the subject to give you the exactness I feel I need to address you on this,
I will have to defer for a few weeks till I return.
Fair enough...will wait to hear from you. Safe travels!



Quick things though..

Why do you think prayer in regular language is not as good as a prayer in special language.. since God knows the heart...??
Exactly HOW does tongues edify the church?
I feel the point of Jews has merit, since they was the providers of the Gospel Until Pentecost.
I don't think that prayer language is better...didn't say that. I will posit a guess that prayer language is for those times when one is crying out to the Lord and runs out of words. The Spirit is there to help us in these prayers. We are not told how tongued edify the church, rather, we are told that they do edify. How mattereth not when God says this is the way it is.

W :)

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 17th 2012, 12:59 AM
Fair enough...will wait to hear from you. Safe travels!



I don't think that prayer language is better...didn't say that. I will posit a guess that prayer language is for those times when one is crying out to the Lord and runs out of words. The Spirit is there to help us in these prayers. We are not told how tongued edify the church, rather, we are told that they do edify. How mattereth not when God says this is the way it is.

W :)

Also Romans 8 says we don't know how to pray as we ought

Watchman
Apr 17th 2012, 01:45 AM
Also Romans 8 says we don't know how to pray as we ought
Yep, that is the verse I had in mind...Romans 8:26.

W :)

Colight
Apr 17th 2012, 03:02 PM
Fair enough...will wait to hear from you. Safe travels!

Nothing safe here, Next time you wonder where are the angels are..
They are here keeping these people alive, the traffic here is rather insane...( and they let their kids play in traffic )
If there was no angels half this country would die in a instant on their roads.




I don't think that prayer language is better...didn't say that. I will posit a guess that prayer language is for those times when one is crying out to the Lord and runs out of words. The Spirit is there to help us in these prayers.

Like what times is that?? considering God knows our hearts




We are not told how tongued edify the church, rather, we are told that they do edify. How mattereth not when God says this is the way it is.

W :)

Yet God is quite plain on how salvation and other things work.
And they are explained quite well..

I need more from you than this..

Slug1
Apr 17th 2012, 03:13 PM
Like what times is that?? considering God knows our hearts


EXACTLY... what time? The fact that He DOES know our heart, so when we are aching strongly in the heart that we are without words... God provides a means for prayer, THE HOLY SPIRIT does it FOR US!

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 8&version=NKJV;#fen-NKJV-28143b)] with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

All is in accordance with God's will and the Holy Spirit provides the means and empowerment to see that WE, the Body of Christ accomplish God's will.

Even when we are SO WEAK and have NO STRENGTH... when we allow the Holy Spirit to move in us and do as God wants... then we will find ourselves doing what God wants. Even if it's as simple as prayer when we can't pray, heal others when we can't heal, speak a prophetic word and reveal a secret of the heart when we have no words to speak in edification, etc, etc, etc.

God will do it anyway through us.

IF... BIG IF, we allow the Holy Spirit to move freely.

Colight
Apr 17th 2012, 03:28 PM
Even when we are SO WEAK and have NO STRENGTH... when we allow the Holy Spirit to move in us and do as God wants... then we will find ourselves doing what God wants. Even if it's as simple as prayer when we can't pray, heal others when we can't heal, speak a prophetic word and reveal a secret of the heart when we have no words to speak in edification, etc, etc, etc.

Do you really feel that God wants us to be a bunch of weak people who struggle at a drop of a hat?
Honestly you have stated over and over about struggling at this struggling at that, yield over this or that.
It sounds like a really out of shape man who took up mountain climbing, and forget his ropes.

If a person is SO WEAK they have no strength, then perhaps they better get with doctrine and figure out why they lack strength..

IMHO.

Slug1
Apr 17th 2012, 03:44 PM
Do you really feel that God wants us to be a bunch of weak people who struggle at a drop of a hat? Did I imply what you just said... nope. What I said was what God DOES for us WHEN we are weak. I'm not saying we are ONLY weak... as you imply!

Ya REALLY need to STOP putting false words in my mouth. If you don't understand what I'm saying, ask. Don't make it look like I'm saying something I'm not.



Honestly you have stated over and over about struggling at this struggling at that, yield over this or that.A Christian without stuggles in their life is denying they have struggles.



It sounds like a really out of shape man who took up mountain climbing, and forget his ropes.Here's a prime example of your implying bordering on accusation once again... who said anything about mountains, climbing, ropes?



If a person is SO WEAK they have no strength, then perhaps they better get with doctrine and figure out why they lack strength..HOOAH... I agree and will echo that Hooah with an AMEN as long as it's scriptural doctrine of the Bible and not what man has made up!!

WHILE we are doing that, God is providing a means to do it FOR us as we search. That scripture is ALL ABOUT His provision when we are weak.


IMHO.Here's my humble thought... God SAYS that the Holy Spirit will pray FOR those who are weak.

I didn't say it...

No one in this thread said it...

I believe what God says...

Everyone else in this thread believes what God says...

DO YOU?

When I say that God said the Holy Spirit prays for us when we are weak... WHY DO you BLAME me for the fact we are at times... weak?

God says WHEN we are weak, I didn't say it... GOD DID!

v26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 8&version=NKJV;#fen-NKJV-28143b)] with groanings which cannot be uttered.

God even points out to us that this help from the Holy Spirit is during our weaknesses!! PLURAL, "weaknesses", God knows us more then we'll EVER admit that we can be WEAK.

If you have a problem with that... take it up with God, not me or this thread in general.

SuperSonicEvnglst
Apr 17th 2012, 03:45 PM
Do you really feel that God wants us to be a bunch of weak people who struggle at a drop of a hat?
Honestly you have stated over and over about struggling at this struggling at that, yield over this or that.
It sounds like a really out of shape man who took up mountain climbing, and forget his ropes.

If a person is SO WEAK they have no strength, then perhaps they better get with doctrine and figure out why they lack strength..

IMHO.

Christ said the Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. Paul said that in his weakness Christ's strength is made perfect. Paul said he glories in his infirmities2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

We are to be stregthened in the innerman. God does not want us to be weak people, that's why He sent us the Comforter that we might be endued with power. The flesh is weak, but the Spirit is who empowers us.

RollTide21
Apr 17th 2012, 03:48 PM
We are told to RIGHTLY divide the word of truth...
not jam huge chucks of it down..
We divide it nicely and properly.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I see this verse used often in discussions about Scripture. Look at the context...specifically clarified in verses 17-19. This is the NIV:

2 Timothy 2:

14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

I can't see how this passage is instructing us on how to interpret the Bible. It's telling us not to stray from the Truth of the Gospel. The "word of truth" is the Gospel of Christ and our future resurrected bodies. In fact, the passage is warning Timothy not to get caught up in a lot of what we do on this very board. Overcomplicating and overanalyzing the simple Truth of God and Jesus Christ.

Anyway...a little off-topic. Carry on...

Slug1
Apr 17th 2012, 03:55 PM
I see this verse used often in discussions about Scripture. Look at the context...specifically clarified in verses 17-19. This is the NIV:

2 Timothy 2:

14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

I can't see how this passage is instructing us on how to interpret the Bible. It's telling us not to stray from the Truth of the Gospel. The "word of truth" is Christ crucified and bodily resurrected. In fact, the passage is warning Timothy not to get caught up in a lot of what we do on this very board. Overcomplicating and overanalyzing the simple Truth of God and Jesus Christ.

Anyway...a little off-topic. Carry on...I had to write about the lesson Paul provided through these scriptures last week for college.

So true... Paul is warning us about what happens to those who don't teach the Word of God correctly. The lesson HOW has already been given to Timothy, now it's a matter of applying. Paul points out allot in application, what to apply and why.

Here is some of what I had to post in a discussion:



As a lesson from what we can gather from 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy… is first that there is to be NO teaching of any other doctrine. Only the Gospel of the Word of God and unaltered context of the meaning of any scriptures from the Word of God. As an example of the severity of this, we find that Paul has enforced the 1 Cor 5:5 disciplinary action that church leadership can do concerning people who will not submit to church authority in the corrective actions taken to help a Christian who has fallen into error. In 1 Tim 1:18-20, (and another in 2 Tim 2:17) we have the names of three such people who have been booted from the church and given over to satan. Teaching false doctrine is taken THAT seriously by Paul as it should by all church leadership… actually any in the Body of Christ need to take this as a serious matter.

Paul even informs Timothy that the Holy Spirit has warned him of how false doctrine will affect the Body of Christ (1 Tim 4:1-4). So even today, we are to be aware of this and when it is happening (and it is), we know that false doctrine is openly being taught to the Body of Christ.

On the topic of church leadership, Paul outlines to Timothy what should be looked for when leadership is considered to be placed into a position to teach and lead the Body of Christ. Being in church leadership is a serious matter in that God will judge leadership to a stricter extent (James 3:1). So for present church leadership to randomly select “candidates” and place them in a position where Jesus will be more critical in His judgment of them… present church leadership need to follow Paul’s guidance so those who are to lead a flock, will meet their judgment having been fully prepared and qualified to meet Jesus’ standards.

Paul even goes into a lesson on how to treat the congregation and even how to treat church leadership. We all work together and sometimes even the simplest of lessons, “how to treat a brother or sister in Christ” needs to be a subject of discipleship of any specific church body is to be who Christ is in them and they express Christ to others.

Paul teaches and shows Timothy about maintaining his place on solid foundation in Christ. To hold fast, to not doubt, to trust in God, to speak boldly, that God is faithful, to expect persecution, to be strong in the grace God has given to us, to be DILIGENT (one of my favorite words), to be approved, not ashamed of the Gospel (BTW, great song by Jeremy Camp)… I can go on and on!

Both 1-2 Timothy are FULL of lessons for both Bible studies for the discipleship of the Body of Christ and also subjects for sermons as well.

Great stuff!!

Here is a reply to a comment in a discussion:

The lessons that Paul teaches us is SO VERY important!!

For the Body of Christ to flourish as God intends, we do have to begin with the leadership of the church. Christ is the "head" and immediately after that, are the leadership.

In Ephesians 4, Paul is led to write:

v11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

So without proper leadership, 1) Equipping isn't done properly, 2) Work is then not accomplished properly, and 3) no edification by the Body of Christ.

It is VERY important that church leadership meet the requirements that we find laid out in the Bible so that the Body of Christ is effective in the ways of Christ as led by the Holy Spirit!!

RollTide21
Apr 18th 2012, 09:01 PM
I honestly don't recall, though I'm certain it was the gospel....just don't recall the details is all.



Or could it be that you simply don't want to admit that you might be wrong and so you are letting pride get in your way of believing that God still works like this?









Nope, just showing you the logic that seems to permeate your posts. You have experienced or seen any real tongues, therefore, you reason within yourself that it no longer exists. People do the same thing with believing in God...they want proof or else they refuse to believe, or they've never gotten a selfish self serving prayer answered, there they reason there is no God. Is the same kind of logic, you are going by your own experience or lack thereof to determine a doctrine not found in the Bible unless you do a lot of twisting and denying. My point is this, you....YOU are not the be all to end all, you do not have all the answers, so turning to your logic when reading the Bible is what is hindering you from believing. When you have several people here who have testified the truth to you, yet you call us liars, our posts and stories suspect. Somehow you feel you are above us and can simply over rule anything we say, therefore in your mind that makes what you say true, and what we say false. It's dangerous and will only lead you further down the path of doubt. People have been debating and debating non stop with you, yet you refuse to see, you refuse to accept that you could be wrong. Put your pride aside and look at what has been testified of here. For your sake, stop hanging on to doubts that make you feel comfortable, and just accept that you might be wrong. If you are honest with yourself, you will see that you have willingly rejected all the truths laid out before you, why? Because your doctrine makes you comfortable?

I've witnessed fake tongues dozens of times. But that doesn't negate the fact that I've witnessed real tongues 3 times, and happen to be very good friends with a woman who has spoken in real tongues twice, and fake tongues several times. She went to one of those churches that told her that she's not saved without it, therefore she did what they said and she spoke alright, but she felt filthy afterwards, but continued to do it until God convicted her heart so much she left that church. I prayed that she would see it was fake and not of God, and my prayer was answered. A year later, she spoke in tongues, real tongues, quite suddenly and she was very surprised by it and she knew that she was praising God. This was on her way into work. We pulled up around the same time, and when I saw her she was weeping tears of joy, rejoicing and shared with me what happened. I know her, and I know she was not lying, in fact, I've never known her to lie. But as far as you're concerned, she lied and I am lying....or you could check your heart and seek God about this.For perspective's sake and as a truly objective 3rd party observer just interested in this thread, I don't think people would say she is lying. Just that she was experiencing the legitimate presence of God in prayer, which is an overwhelming thing for a person, and perhaps became caught up in the moment and seemed to pray "in tounges".

That's the sense I get mostly from people who are not among believers who worship in charismatic circles.

Colight
Apr 19th 2012, 02:44 AM
Even when we are SO WEAK and have NO STRENGTH... when we allow the Holy Spirit to move in us and do as God wants... then we will find ourselves doing what God wants. Even if it's as simple as prayer when we can't pray, heal others when we can't heal, speak a prophetic word and reveal a secret of the heart when we have no words to speak in edification, etc, etc, etc.




Did I imply what you just said... nope. What I said was what God DOES for us WHEN we are weak. I'm not saying we are ONLY weak... as you imply!

Ya REALLY need to STOP putting false words in my mouth. If you don't understand what I'm saying, ask. Don't make it look like I'm saying something I'm not.


Sorry But you said what you said..
God is not into the puppet business, we are not to just be weak and let him take the strings then enjoy all these wonders that will just flow straight thru you, from healing to secret knowledge..

Frankly to me that sounds more like possession than a solid foundation, we are not mediums that have to relax ( or be weak) and let the "spirit" inside take control to do Gods will.

We are ROYAL PRIESTS of part of the very ROYALTY of heaven it self thru Christ.
Is this really something you would see the royalty of Heaven doing?

Again...To me this does not sound like something built on the solid rock of doctrinal principles.

We are to think with the mind of Christ.
Know his doctrine and principles.
Then Take that doctrine and principles and live in them just as Christ did.

The purpose of the spirit is not some puppet master to pull our strings, but rather its main purpose is a teacher.
To help us understand doctrine and biblical principles.

If we are seeking Gifts and experiences over doctrine, our focus is off Christ.
If our focus is off Christ then we are not going to progress in our spiritual life.
If we are not progressing then we are not following clear commands given to us to finish the race that is set before us.

Also our point of Contact with God is thru Christ, wouldn't catering to the Spirit for gifts and visions be outside bounds of contact.
It is Christ that was judged for us, we are his given to him by the father. If the spirit give us gifts it is because Christ allows it.
Our focus should remain on Christ.

Colight
Apr 19th 2012, 02:57 AM
Christ said the Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. Paul said that in his weakness Christ's strength is made perfect. Paul said he glories in his infirmities2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

We are to be stregthened in the innerman. God does not want us to be weak people, that's why He sent us the Comforter that we might be endued with power. The flesh is weak, but the Spirit is who empowers us.

From what I get is our focus needs to be more on doctrine and the spiritual life, rather and trying to get power out of the spirit.
Thru the spiritual life..we have the same strength Christ had on the Cross when the face of God turned from him.
He only had doctrine and his spiritual life, and he found them sufficient.



So if that spiritual of life can get Christ thru the Cross, we have no excuse to claim huge weakness in our little day to day dulldrums.

Watchman
Apr 19th 2012, 01:08 PM
From what I get is our focus needs to be more on doctrine and the spiritual life, rather and trying to get power out of the spirit.
Thru the spiritual life..we have the same strength Christ had on the Cross when the face of God turned from him.
He only had doctrine and his spiritual life, and he found them sufficient.

So if that spiritual of life can get Christ thru the Cross, we have no excuse to claim huge weakness in our little day to day dulldrums.
Spiritual life is living BY the power of the Spirit...which is what Jesus did. He did nothing but what He saw our Father doing. How did He see? By the Spirit. In fact, His entire life was an offering...how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Nobody is talking about 'getting power out of the Spirit.' We are talking about the scriptural doctrine that the Spirit manifests Himself through saints. There is NO spiritual life apart from walking by His momentary guidance, being thankful for His assistance in prayer, allowing Him to enlighten our understanding, etc. We are to allow Him complete sway with us. Apart from His strength, doctrine is useless. Apart from Him, we have NO power to love, no power to obey, no power to function in the body of Christ as we are meant to function, no power to teach, no power to please God, and no power for anything other than to live carnally. Take the power of the Spirit away, and we have nothing but our own useless strength, which cannot please God. What is your idea of 'the spiritual life'?

W :)

Colight
Apr 19th 2012, 05:02 PM
Spiritual life is living BY the power of the Spirit...which is what Jesus did. He did nothing but what He saw our Father doing. How did He see? By the Spirit. In fact, His entire life was an offering...how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Nobody is talking about 'getting power out of the Spirit.' We are talking about the scriptural doctrine that the Spirit manifests Himself through saints. There is NO spiritual life apart from walking by His momentary guidance, being thankful for His assistance in prayer, allowing Him to enlighten our understanding, etc. We are to allow Him complete sway with us. Apart from His strength, doctrine is useless. Apart from Him, we have NO power to love, no power to obey, no power to function in the body of Christ as we are meant to function, no power to teach, no power to please God, and no power for anything other than to live carnally. Take the power of the Spirit away, and we have nothing but our own useless strength, which cannot please God. What is your idea of 'the spiritual life'?

W :)

Only a few select OT saints had the spirit in them.. how did they function ?
remember the helper ( spirit ) was not sent till Christ sent it.

John 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.

I find more people are about worshiping the spirit, rather than Christ. We are to worship IN Spirit, not the spirit.
For example Prayer..Many Church will pray to the spirit...
The bible tells us how to pray and that is what we should follow.... if we really believe.
No one in scripture ever prays or worships the Spirit individually.
We are to worship God in the manner He has given.
Spirit and truth.

RollTide21
Apr 19th 2012, 05:29 PM
Absolutely, yes! If we have all we need in scripture, then why were men given to equip the saints for the work of ministry UNTIL the body grows into Christ's full stature? If all we need is found in scripture, then why are we made one Spirit with the Lord and why are we told to follow His inner guidance? The idea of the sufficiency of scripture carries with it, in most circles, the idea that we have the ability to read and do perfectly. It is a fleshly concept. The scriptures do, indeed, tell us how to be equipped, but they do not directly equip us. God does that via His Spirit.

We are told in the OT, that the Lord orders the steps of a righteous man. Paul said that we are created unto good works, prepared in advance, in which for those of us in Christ to walk. So we have order(timing, sequence) and we have premade works. These will be different for each saint, just as the functions of the body are different and must work at the appropriate times, in the appropriate sequences, at the appropriate tasks. Scripture does not contain this list and its order for us, and even if it did, we would fail as miserably as did the Israelites in keeping the law of Moses. The leading, guidance, teaching, enlightening of the Holy Spirit cannot be set aside in favor of the Bible.

WAmen to this, my friend. Outstanding.

Watchman
Apr 19th 2012, 08:10 PM
I find more people are about worshiping the spirit, rather than Christ. We are to worship IN Spirit, not the spirit.
For example Prayer..Many Church will pray to the spirit...
The bible tells us how to pray and that is what we should follow.... if we really believe.
No one in scripture ever prays or worships the Spirit individually.
We are to worship God in the manner He has given.
Spirit and truth.
We are talking amongst ourselves...not about what some nebulous other groups may do. No one here (of whom I'm aware) is advocating praying to, or worship of, the Spirit of Christ. What is your definition of worshiping in spirit and truth? What is your idea of 'the spiritual life'?

Thanks,

W :)

Slug1
Apr 19th 2012, 10:06 PM
We are talking amongst ourselves...not about what some nebulous other groups may do. No one here (of whom I'm aware) is advocating praying to, or worship of, the Spirit of Christ. What is your definition of worshiping in spirit and truth? What is your idea of 'the spiritual life'?

Thanks,

W :)AMEN... the Body of Christ is to worship as led by the Holy Spirit. This is what John meant in that we'd (the Body of Christ) would be "in" the Spirit AS we worship.

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Colight
Apr 22nd 2012, 04:30 AM
AMEN... the Body of Christ is to worship as led by the Holy Spirit. This is what John meant in that we'd (the Body of Christ) would be "in" the Spirit AS we worship.

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16:13)

Yet if no truth is being spoken in the Churches, how can he lead?
He lead thru only what he hears.. and if people are only speaking of their heart ( or some emotional display of tongues ) rather than doctrine..there is no truth for him to guide by. For none is being spoken for him to hear.

Watchman
Apr 22nd 2012, 02:29 PM
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16:13)

Yet if no truth is being spoken in the Churches, how can he lead?
He lead thru only what he hears.. and if people are only speaking of their heart ( or some emotional display of tongues ) rather than doctrine..there is no truth for him to guide by. For none is being spoken for him to hear.
What we call the churches would be unrecognizeable to the early saints. "Doctrine" has replaced relationship with our Father in many of the religion clubs. He is not present in many of them, and they've become little more than faux eikons. I'm not sniping at anyone...just stating the truth. Truth is being spoken, but not much of it is found in many of the organized religious circles. The demonic spirit of religion has gained control of much...too much.

W

Slug1
Apr 22nd 2012, 05:48 PM
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16:13)

Yet if no truth is being spoken in the Churches, how can he lead?
He lead thru only what he hears.. and if people are only speaking of their heart ( or some emotional display of tongues ) rather than doctrine..there is no truth for him to guide by. For none is being spoken for him to hear.Yet people's hearts say NO to tongues while the doctrine that Paul was led to write by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit... is ignored.

Ignored in multiple ways... such as NOT speaking in tongues in the order God said to, by saying NO to the gift, by showing off (speaking loudly without interpretation) in the church... are some of the multiple ways that people in the Body of Christ IGNORE the doctrine of the Bible. They do it the way those who do it around them do it, IN CHAOS. Or, the church ignores the gift and don't allow anyone to allow the gift to manifest. They are ALL following some man-made religious RULE based on some man-made denominational or church level doctrine.

They are NOT following doctrine of scripture and they are NOT being obedient to God.

God says that when HE... when HE wants to edify, a WAY (not the ONLY way, but... A way) to do this is when 2-3 people in a congregation will be empowered by the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues and 1 will be empowered to interpret what is being spoken for the EDIFICATION of that entire congregation.

Paul even stresses this is commandments of God.

So if a person says, "NO"... what are they following? If a church leader says no so God isn't ALLOWED to use THIS doctrinal method... what is that leader doing to his congregation by NOT ALLOWING the power of God to flow freely??

What they are following is this: Not the Word of God and the doctrine established by the Holy Spirit and spoken by and written by who God chose to write through.

Colight
Apr 22nd 2012, 07:05 PM
What we call the churches would be unrecognizeable to the early saints. "Doctrine" has replaced relationship with our Father in many of the religion clubs. He is not present in many of them, and they've become little more than faux eikons. I'm not sniping at anyone...just stating the truth. Truth is being spoken, but not much of it is found in many of the organized religious circles. The demonic spirit of religion has gained control of much...too much.

W

Doctrine is the mind of Christ, givin to us thru scripture..
God values his thinking very high..

For even Christ stated a Doctrine that would apply to todays Churches..
Matt 15

7 You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:

8 ‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
9 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”



Since we are on a kick for the truth... can you handle it?
The truth is....
The thinking of man is being taught in today Churches, the emotions of unstable women are being presented in the place of sound truth. That is why the country of the USA is facing judgment from
the High courts of heaven, judgement when there is a church on almost every street corner.

I will agree with you on organized religion.. it is one of the greatest distractions Satan has placed upon the church.

Colight
Apr 22nd 2012, 07:41 PM
Yet people's hearts say NO to tongues while the doctrine that Paul was led to write by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit... is ignored.

Ignored in multiple ways... such as NOT speaking in tongues in the order God said to, by saying NO to the gift, by showing off (speaking loudly without interpretation) in the church... are some of the multiple ways that people in the Body of Christ IGNORE the doctrine of the Bible. They do it the way those who do it around them do it, IN CHAOS. Or, the church ignores the gift and don't allow anyone to allow the gift to manifest. They are ALL following some man-made religious RULE based on some man-made denominational or church level doctrine.

They are NOT following doctrine of scripture and they are NOT being obedient to God.

God says that when HE... when HE wants to edify, a WAY (not the ONLY way, but... A way) to do this is when 2-3 people in a congregation will be empowered by the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues and 1 will be empowered to interpret what is being spoken for the EDIFICATION of that entire congregation.

Paul even stresses this is commandments of God.

So if a person says, "NO"... what are they following? If a church leader says no so God isn't ALLOWED to use THIS doctrinal method... what is that leader doing to his congregation by NOT ALLOWING the power of God to flow freely??

What they are following is this: Not the Word of God and the doctrine established by the Holy Spirit and spoken by and written by who God chose to write through.

We are to focus on Christ.. not tongues..period.
We are to focus on Christ... Not trying to Channel the power of God, like some medium...period.
We are to live by faith, not by sound and sight...period.

Now you are stating we have to live by sound?

The Tongues of today obscures the gospel, it prevents the unbeliever from finding Christ as savior, for those in it appear as mad.
The Tongues of today leads believers into false doctrine and hinders spiritual grow and spiritual production..
Saved7's past post on her friend, who was MORE concerned about speaking in tongues than spiritual growth.. by any evaluation in the light of the word of God. that is spiritually wrong.
Even your post shows that tongues is valued over Christ, that action trumps doctrine, that experience trumps scripture..
That is spiritually a wrong position to embrace, one that one day can lead to the flogging of the great scourge of God the father..

1 tim 6:20
.... keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, ......


It is very doctrineal to avoid profane and vain babblings.. which is a excellent description of tongues today.


IF you are looking for supernatural power.. look to the word of God, not some emotional out break in a way ward church.
Heb 4
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Slug1
Apr 23rd 2012, 01:27 AM
We are to focus on Christ.. Amen


not tongues..period.This is a gift of the Holy Spirit, we can choose NOT to allow the Holy Spirit to manifest. It's not about focusing on that gift, it's about exercising it the proper way when God gives it to a person. That is why Paul laid out the doctrine in the proper order and purpose.



We are to focus on ChristAmen



... Not trying to Channel the power of God, like some medium...period.Negative on the medium comment... now ARE you are calling the power of the Holy Spirit something evil? Clarify please!

People DON'T channel the power of God, His will may require a person to be empowered and His Spirit does the empowering. It's not channeling at all.

So you know... channeling is about satan and his power and to call a Christian who God is empowering supernaturally as channeling power... power from where?

Say it and NEVER be forgiven for saying it, IF it was God empowering the Christian.

There are Christians out there in the world who have done this and because they truly believe that ANY supernatural power in the world is of ONLY of satan, they will IMMEDIATELY call ANY occurrence of any Gift of the Holy Spirit, ESPECIALLY tongues... as OF satan.

They will not be forgiven of that sin... EVER!


We are to live by faith, Amen


not by sound and sight...period.So if by faith a person prays out to God and He answers and does a miracle in answer to the prayer... that's wrong?

If it is... who's wrong?

God for answering?

Or the person for praying?


Now you are stating we have to live by sound?Explain to me how my words mean I'm saying we are to live by sound.



The Tongues of today obscures the gospel, How do tongues obscure anything when done in the ORDER according to doctrine of the Bible in 1 Cor 14?



it prevents the unbeliever from finding Christ as savior, for those in it appear as mad.Define unbeliever.



The Tongues of today leads believers into false doctrine and hinders spiritual grow and spiritual production..NOT when the tongues is done in accordance of the Bible's doctrine as outlined by Paul in 1 Cor 14.



Saved7's past post on her friend, who was MORE concerned about speaking in tongues than spiritual growth.. by any evaluation in the light of the word of God. that is spiritually wrong. OK...



Even your post shows that tongues is valued over Christ, that action trumps doctrine, that experience trumps scripture.. Explain so this statement makes some sense



That is spiritually a wrong position to embrace, one that one day can lead to the flogging of the great scourge of God the father..Explain because I don't know what you are meaning.


1 tim 6:20
.... keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, ......Yes... but this is not in the context of speaking in tongues. This scripture is in the context of like saying the Rosary over and over instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead prayer, they run through the repetition of the beads and the prayer fro each bead.



It is very doctrineal to avoid profane and vain babblings.. which is a excellent description of tongues today.When the Holy Spirit is empowering a person to pray in tongues, to EVEN CALL that babbliing means you are CALLING the Holy Spirit a babbler. Those who exercise this gift, it IS the Holy Spirit speaking. To condemn them for their obedience... you feel you are JUSTIFIED by calling God's power and God's will that THEY speak in tongues and HIS SPIRIT empowers them... you call them a babbler... BROTHER, you are calling God those names!!!



IF you are looking for supernatural power.. look to the word of God, not some emotional out break in a way ward church.
Heb 4
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.When I pray for healing, and I have MANY MANY times and God answers those prayers MANY MANY times... why would any Christian even THINK anyone who prays in obedience... is seeking "power?""

If you have a problem with God empowering people in the Body of Christ to do the supernatural... your PROBLEM isn't with THEM. Your problem is WITH GOD.

Colight
Apr 23rd 2012, 02:35 AM
This is a gift of the Holy Spirit, we can choose NOT to allow the Holy Spirit to manifest. It's not about focusing on that gift, it's about exercising it the proper way when God gives it to a person. That is why Paul laid out the doctrine in the proper order and purpose.

Paul also stated it would end..
you very much choose to ignore that part.
Paul also stated for women to remain SILENT in church.. yet another thing to ignore.
Paul also staed it was the least of spiritual gifts, while they was active..
Yet some how they seen as the most coveted.

So you have no bases to lecture about proper order and purpose when you ignore proper order and purpose.

Instead rewording scripture, to allow it to mean it ends at Christ return( which many gifts are reactivated. )

Now if they had not ended in the first place, why would there be a need for them to be restored?

Also which coming of Christ are they supposed to end at?
The Rapture?
2nd Advent?




Negative on the medium comment... now you are calling the power of the Holy Spirit something evil? People DON'T channel the power of God, His will may require a person to be empowered and His Spirit does the empowering. It's not channeling at all.
Stop on the drama.

They are not of the spirit..period
They are vain babblings of confusion.
GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION!!!



So you know... channeling is about satan and his power and to call a Christian who God is empowering supernaturally as channeling power... power from where?

How about their own pride?
The pride to need to cheers of man.
How about their own emotions, to show them self to be oh so much more spiritual than the next guy.
There is no power in what they do... no more than the power that infests a crowd at a rock concert..


Say it and NEVER be forgiven for saying it, IF it was God empowering the Christian.

Its not, we are to live by faith... not power... to seek power is sorcery.


There are Christians out there in the world who have done this and because they truly believe that ANY supernatural power in the world is of ONLY of satan, they will IMMEDIATELY call ANY occurrence of any Gift of the Holy Spirit, ESPECIALLY tongues... as OF satan.

They will not be forgiven of that sin... EVER!



Oh such a high horse you are on..
Sounds just like a catholic priest calling people heretics in the Inquisition.

What part of avoiding 1 tim 6:20 .... avoiding profane and vain babblings, ...... do you have a problem with..

Let me Guess.... Paul is now of the unforgiven sin type too.




Explain because I don't know what you are meaning.
Yes... but this is not in the context of speaking in tongues. This scripture is in the context of like saying the Rosary over and over instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead prayer, they run through the repetition of the beads and the prayer fro each bead.

And the tongue guys repeat the same noise, there is little or no variance.. for it is a trained trait.




When the Holy Spirit is empowering a person to pray in tongues, to EVEN CALL that babbliing means you are CALLING the Holy Spirit a babbler. Those who exercise this gift, it IS the Holy Spirit speaking. To condemn them for their obedience... you feel you are JUSTIFIED by calling God's power and God's will that THEY speak in tongues and HIS SPIRIT empowers them... you call them a babbler... BROTHER, you are calling God those names!!!

Once again, you are playing the INQUISITOR..which tells me you are grasping to false teaching, for it is now fear or threats that you are doing.
Off that high horse.
ALL DOCTRINE even tongues is open to examination, with out the threats ..

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I am finding the spirit you speak from to be lacking..
It has VIOLATED many doctrines, with lame excuses and twists.
Therefore I must reject it.



When I pray for healing, and I have MANY MANY times and God answers those prayers MANY MANY times... why would any Christian even THINK anyone who prays in obedience... is seeking "power?""


Isnt that wonderful.. even Satan can produce healing.
He cant however produce the truth of God.
I would rather have one truth over 10,000 healings..

Also I notice the tone that you stated these healings occur is somehow based on a action that you do, better than others.
Based on your 'obedience' God heals others, you are like some super pipeline to get healings from God, bet that gets a lively round of AMENs in the Church you attend.....
Therefore it is you trying to gain some credit for these occurrences.

Also is part of that Obedience, speaking in tongues?
Now can every one can do that?... are they dis-obeident if they can not?



If you have a problem with God empowering people in the Body of Christ to do the supernatural... your PROBLEM isn't with THEM. Your problem is WITH GOD.

2 cor 11

14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

What is the works of tongues?
To get the focus off Christ and onto a emotional ride.
There is nothing solid about it.
It lays no sort of foundation.
It edifys no other doctrine..
It produces great confusion...
It distracts from doctrinal teaching,.
It violates the order for women to keep silent in the churches, for there is a God given order for that...
It violates the role of the pastor-teacher.
It causes believers to seek emotional signs over faith..
It is only a show that is played out before man.

Therefore it not of God.

Slug1
Apr 23rd 2012, 12:16 PM
Paul also stated it would end..
AMEN!


you very much choose to ignore that part.

I don't ignore the fact that prophecy, knowledge, and tongues will end. Show me in this thread where I may have said something that shows I ignore this truth of scripture.

What is ignored is the "when"... the when is "when" the PERFECT is come.

Just the fact that we all have to debate the truth of the Bible SHOWS people that the Bible is NOT the perfect.


Paul also stated for women to remain SILENT in church.. yet another thing to ignore.

Not the topic of this thread. Watchmen has been diligent enough to address this topic in a series of 3, maybe 4 threads now.


Paul also staed it was the least of spiritual gifts, while they was active..

Amen


Yet some how they seen as the most coveted.I don't agree and I do agree. For those who are NOT discipled, YES tongues are the most coveted. NO, for those who ARE discipled. Those discipled understand that this is a gift from God for their edification and when interpreted when Interpretation is also granted by God... for the edification of the congregation/listeners.

However, because this specific gift is only listed at the bottom of the list of gifts, DON'T make the gift NOT a gift of the Holy Spirit.

That means WHEN the gift is manifest through a person, that means the Holy Spirit is moving in power IN them and THROUGH them.

Why MOCK the Holy Spirit... or, tread that line of blasphemy and CALL any manifestation of tongues fake due to a belief, or worse CROSS that line and COMMIT blasphemy and call ANY and ALL manifestations of the gift of Tongues... of satan?

If God manifests the gift of knowledge, or discernment, or prophetically reveals that FALSE tongues are being spoken, then by ALL means, call the false tongues FALSE and of satan because God told you what they are. It God reveals them as fake then call them fake.

But... can you truly call any and all manifestation of "supernatural" tongues of satan based on DISCERNMENT ONLY through a doctrinal belief based on the doctrine of Cessationism???

When people base discernment on a man-made doctrine and call a manifestation of tongues "of the devil" and it was REALLY the Holy Spirit but they REFUSE to believe it's the Holy Spirit because of the bondage that false doctrine has over them to believe these gifts have ended... they have COMMITTED blasphemy that WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN!

They will remain in their Holy SpiritLESS church for the remainder of their natural life praising God and calling any and all who are in Holy Spirit FILLED churches where the Holy Spirit freely manifests in power AS GOD'S WILL allows... calling them crazy, nuts, etc.

They will spend the rest of their lives speaking out AGAINST ANY AND ALL occurrences of tongues and they will do all they can to get others to also be in bondage to that false doctrine so that in time, their blindness may cause them to commit blasphemy.

I didn't read the rest of your post past the parts I quoted but I do see your final sentence above this box that I'm presently replying in. So if you conclude that tongues is NOT of God... what ARE they of?

Colight
Apr 23rd 2012, 01:53 PM
I didn't read the rest of your post past the parts I quoted but I do see your final sentence above this box that I'm presently replying in. So if you conclude that tongues is NOT of God... what ARE they of?

I have answered that..therefore if you wish not to read the answer..

Then it is upon you..I have warned.
I need not convince you..only warn..

I am done...