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RevLogos
Nov 20th 2008, 10:59 PM
This is interesting. Pope Benedict predicted the collapse while a Cardinal back in '85. Note the main reason: "The future pope said a decline in ethics ``can actually cause the laws of the market to collapse.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aGSJzqaJm_b0&refer=europe

Paul spoke of the great falling away or apostasy that will precede Jesus' return. This falling away will result in a loss of ethics worldwide. The Cardinal was quite right. A loss of ethics impacts the free market system.

But let me take it a step further. It also affects human rights.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
The US Declaration of Independence and Constitution recognized that human rights were from God, not from Man. These truths are only self-evident to those who believe in a Creator. With no Creator, there are no unalienable rights. With fewer people believing in a Creator, there will be less respect for these rights. Instead of people endowed with rights given by a Creator, people's rights will be given or taken by Man.

I don't need to be a prophet to see where this is leading.

TexasBeliever
Nov 21st 2008, 12:15 PM
I agree completely. It's chilling, isn't it?

RevLogos
Nov 21st 2008, 01:46 PM
I believe this falling away is happening before our eyes. It isn't something we can measure but we can see it's effects.

As Christian values decline, the idea of any kind of moral absolute vanishes to be replaced by moral relativism. People become unable to distinguish right and wrong believing what ever they think, whatever they want to do, is right.

The US is a nation of laws. It has a constitution, it has checks and balances. The nation just South of the US is also a nation of laws. They also have checks and balances. What's the difference? Corruption through and through. The government, police, banks, judicial system, all with levels of corruption so high that nothing gets done without bribes. It's no wonder people stream North to get away from it.

Just a simple example. My brother is lawyer for a large company. A man in South America stole $100,000. It's an open and shut case. But they cannot get the case heard. To get a case heard in that country, one must bribe the judges. Otherwise cases just languish. They won't do it even though the bribe would be less than the amount stolen.

What happens when more and more people in government, our legal system, and in banks, behave as if there is no God? I'll tell you what happens. The laws, the constitution, become nothing more than words on paper. Like fiat money, it's only worth what people think it's worth. This is happening in Congress; its been going on a while. Nothing gets done because special interests throw money around like M&M's. And it's spreading to the judicial system through activist judges. It's infected our banking systems and it's moving down to the local levels.

pinky
Nov 21st 2008, 09:19 PM
I believe this falling away is happening before our eyes. It isn't something we can measure but we can see it's effects.

As Christian values decline, the idea of any kind of moral absolute vanishes to be replaced by moral relativism. People become unable to distinguish right and wrong believing what ever they think, whatever they want to do, is right.

The US is a nation of laws. It has a constitution, it has checks and balances. The nation just South of the US is also a nation of laws. They also have checks and balances. What's the difference? Corruption through and through. The government, police, banks, judicial system, all with levels of corruption so high that nothing gets done without bribes. It's no wonder people stream North to get away from it.

Just a simple example. My brother is lawyer for a large company. A man in South America stole $100,000. It's an open and shut case. But they cannot get the case heard. To get a case heard in that country, one must bribe the judges. Otherwise cases just languish. They won't do it even though the bribe would be less than the amount stolen.

What happens when more and more people in government, our legal system, and in banks, behave as if there is no God? I'll tell you what happens. The laws, the constitution, become nothing more than words on paper. Like fiat money, it's only worth what people think it's worth. This is happening in Congress; its been going on a while. Nothing gets done because special interests throw money around like M&M's. And it's spreading to the judicial system through activist judges. It's infected our banking systems and it's moving down to the local levels.


Yes.

I agree with your points (although I believe the 'falling away' is essentially Christians who fall away from the Gospel Truth in order to follow the traditions of men).

It seems that to rise to positions of influence and power in our world today .......a person has to be a 'player'.

It's a corrupt system and only allows for corruptible people to rise to the top......and honest, Godly people get weeded out early in the process.


It seems to me that over the last few decades our whole system seems to operate more like an organized crime syndicate or mafia cartel than a free republic, "by and for the people".

However, the Lord gives us the leaders we deserve.

Praise Him in His righteous judgment.

sincerely,
pinky

TexasBeliever
Nov 21st 2008, 09:49 PM
The Constitution and Declaration of Independence were both drafted by men who believed the Bible to be the Word of God. The only way the spirit of these documents can function as intended is if our government and the people hold to this truth.

When critical mass of rejection of the Word of God is reached in the branches of our government it will be the end of fair, just and moral rule in this country. And it is well on it's way.

When men and governments no longer answer to God, the Adversary steps in as you know how nature abhors a vacuum.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 21st 2008, 10:47 PM
I honestly do not think it is Christians who 'fall away' but the tares from the wheat. They grew up together.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

pinky
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:56 AM
I honestly do not think it is Christians who 'fall away' but the tares from the wheat. They grew up together.




Good point.

However, do you think those tares claim to be Christian, or appear as such outwardly?

God bless in Christ,
pinky

Marc B
Nov 22nd 2008, 02:26 AM
Not all who claim to be christian are, just as not all christian churches are truly God's church. There is more counterfeit christianity out there than many people realize. That's why all the warnings are there in scripture.

possumliving
Nov 26th 2008, 03:39 AM
In the Amplified:

2 Thess 2:3 Let no one deceive {or} beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),

2 Thess 2:9 The coming [of the lawless one, the antichrist] is through the activity {and} working of Satan and will be attended by great power and with all sorts of [pretended] miracles and signs {and} delusive marvels--[all of them] lying wonders--
2 Thess 2:10 And by unlimited seduction to evil {and} with all wicked deception for those who are perishing (going to perdition) because they did not welcome the Truth {but} refused to love it that they might be saved.
2 Thess 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error {and} a strong delusion to make them believe what is false,
2 Thess 2:12 In order that all may be judged {and} condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness.

So my understanding of it is this...

These are people that we see go to churc with us every Sunday. They profess to be Christians, they probably even act like Christians and talk like Christians, but there's one thing they do not do. According to the passage above, they do not love the truth that they might be saved.

My boyfriend and I talk about this all of the time. We both came to Christ with the belief that we were being asked to lay down our lives for Christ. No if's, and's or butt's! We are slaves to Christ and to the Gospel. We have no choice but to be obedient to God. Jesus paid a great price for our lives with His precious blood.

Neither of us knew each other until this year. My husband passed away in Sept from cancer and he introduced us before he died.

We knew almost immediately that we had found someone that we were 'equally yoked' with. We have the same belief and attitude about salvation, obedience and being called by God and therefore being a bond servant.

We also have the distinct experience of being thought crazy, even by other "Christians", because we take our relationship with the Lord so seriously.

We both see, that very soon, things are going to go from bad to worse and we are to help prepare the remnant. Tonight we were in church and while people were giving testimony, God said, "There's your remnant" meaning, these are the people that we were supposed to help.

All of these people that were testifying had come through some fiery ordeals. God is sending these people to our little church. They are many of them hurt and wounded. Exhausted.

God is blessing us. He's bringing us one by one together. We are waiting on Him.

Steph

Ashley274
Nov 26th 2008, 03:43 AM
I am with you 100% Rev I see it all around.....makes sense what he said ...and look at all the Christians that are saying sin is OK ...that we who want to help bring someone back to Christ are haters because we point out a spade is a spade.....So much lawlessness.

All as in NOT ALL christians but in how many are either not christians or fell away

possumliving
Nov 26th 2008, 04:34 AM
Or, we are "judging"... Perhaps what they hear is God's Word judging their actions.

1 Pet 4:17 For the time [has arrived] for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will [be] the end of those who do not respect {or} believe {or} obey the good news (the Gospel) of God?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 26th 2008, 02:38 PM
Good point.

However, do you think those tares claim to be Christian, or appear as such outwardly?

God bless in Christ,
pinky

Hi Pinky!

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

pinky
Nov 28th 2008, 08:42 PM
Hi Pinky!

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Hello Partaker of Christ.

Amen!

Rhyfelwr
Nov 28th 2008, 11:50 PM
I wouldn't say there are any set rights given to people by God. Remember, we're born slaves to Satan, only God can bring us to Him to be His servant. Nowhere does free-will come into the equation.

Constitutions such as those of the USA are designed to limit the government, to let people pursue what is good to them. In the days of the founding fathers, this would have been great! A Christian nation whose people could worship God according to their own beliefs, whether Baptist, Calvinist, Lutheran, or whatever.

Unfortunately, such a system does not work when the majority of people want to use this freedom for selfish purposes. When they pursue what they think to be their happiness at the expense of the rest of society, it ruins the system for everyone else, the honest Christians. It only takes a few rotten apples to ruin the barrel.

The US is now in the situation where much of the population are immoral, and a lack of government control gives them the ability to pursue their evil ways. Look for example at homosexuals demanding the right to marry. There's nothing against it in the Constitution - its such an absurd idea the founding fathers would never have thought of putting it there!

To maintain Christian principles nowadays, it would only be possible through government intervention and restriction on freedoms.

It's a sad sign of the times, and I can't see it happening until the reign of King Jesus.

RevLogos
Nov 30th 2008, 05:38 PM
So far we’ve talked about the loss of human rights, and the increase in corruption at every level of state and government. Let me add a third effect of the great falling-away.

The US and other westernized countries are nations of law. Laws codify right and wrong. But interpreting laws still requires something we usually call “common sense”. I believe “common sense” is derived from a common moral foundation. When fewer and fewer people have this foundation then judgment of right and wrong becomes subject only to the letter of the law. The legal scale becomes the only scale in a morally relativistic society. People or organizations are considered morally right when they conform to the letter of the law.

A frequent example we see are so called “zero tolerance” policies in schools. A child brings a tiny pink squirt gun to school, and is punished severely and sent to counseling for violating a no-guns policy. Where’s common sense?

Another example I just read came from Israel, where the Jewish Mumbai victims of terror are not eligible for any state aid because the terrorist organization claiming responsibility is not on a list of known terror organizations. (The only news link I have for this story is in Hebrew). The letter of the law says these people are not terror victims. Where’s common sense?

Alexander Solzhenitsyn said in a speech he gave to Harvard back in 1978:

“A society which is based on the letter of the law and never reaches any higher is taking very scarce advantage of the high level of human possibilities. The letter of the law is too cold and formal to have a beneficial influence on society. Whenever the tissue of life is woven of legalistic relations, there is an atmosphere of moral mediocrity, paralyzing man's noblest impulses.”

So what happens? We become a litigious society in which the letter of the law defines righteousness and morality. The law becomes the supreme solution, not God. Laws define morality, not God. Laws become more and more complicated to address every possible contingency. And without morality people will conform to the letter of the law but without restraint. If one is right by a legal point of view, then nothing more is required. A legalistic society crushes creativity and innovation because of fear of the law.

Solzhenitsyn concludes: “And it will be simply impossible to stand through the trials of this threatening century with only the support of a legalistic structure.”

thepenitent
Nov 30th 2008, 07:03 PM
I believe this falling away is happening before our eyes. It isn't something we can measure but we can see it's effects.

As Christian values decline, the idea of any kind of moral absolute vanishes to be replaced by moral relativism. People become unable to distinguish right and wrong believing what ever they think, whatever they want to do, is right.

The US is a nation of laws. It has a constitution, it has checks and balances. The nation just South of the US is also a nation of laws. They also have checks and balances. What's the difference? Corruption through and through. The government, police, banks, judicial system, all with levels of corruption so high that nothing gets done without bribes. It's no wonder people stream North to get away from it.

Just a simple example. My brother is lawyer for a large company. A man in South America stole $100,000. It's an open and shut case. But they cannot get the case heard. To get a case heard in that country, one must bribe the judges. Otherwise cases just languish. They won't do it even though the bribe would be less than the amount stolen.

What happens when more and more people in government, our legal system, and in banks, behave as if there is no God? I'll tell you what happens. The laws, the constitution, become nothing more than words on paper. Like fiat money, it's only worth what people think it's worth. This is happening in Congress; its been going on a while. Nothing gets done because special interests throw money around like M&M's. And it's spreading to the judicial system through activist judges. It's infected our banking systems and it's moving down to the local levels.

I'm temted to compare us to the time of the Judges when everyone did what was "right in their own eyes". However, it seems contemporary sinners do what they know is wrong but they just don't care. As morals fall away too many do only what is in their own interest, by fair or foul. The ends justify the means.