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Yukerboy
Nov 21st 2008, 06:57 AM
Wikipedia definition in Black, Scripture in Purple

None who are truly saved can be condemned for their sins or finally fall away from the faith (For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.; whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.; All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.; The sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.; there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.; Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.; for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.; He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.; he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.; it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.; it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.; Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession; he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.; When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.; May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.; by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy; we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.; who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.; They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.; No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.; Everyone born of God overcomes the world.; I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.; anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.)

You could almost type out the whole Bible to prove this point. Wikipedia...5 for 5.

9Marksfan
Nov 21st 2008, 10:04 AM
Agreed - this is such an important doctrine. OSAS folk think we don't really need to persevere - we'll just lose our reward if we drift. NOSAS folk think we have to persevere ourselves - and God is waiting to reject us if we screw up once too often - only POTS has the right balance!!!!!

Diolectic
Nov 21st 2008, 05:29 PM
None who are truly saved can be condemned for their sins or finally fall away from the faith.Why can't one appostisize. do they still not have free will?

theBelovedDisciple
Nov 21st 2008, 05:43 PM
Agreed...

Perseverance... Perseverance Perseverance........

As a part of that perserverance... 'testing', being sober, being vigilant, 'watching'.... praying in the Holy Ghost.. 'keeping' yourselves in the Love of God.. looking for His mercy unto Eternal Life...

But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

theBelovedDisciple
Nov 21st 2008, 05:49 PM
Why can't one appostisize. do they still not have free will?
-----------------------------------------------------

Now unto HIM, that is 'able' to 'keep' you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24-25

RogerW
Nov 21st 2008, 05:54 PM
Agreed...

Perseverance... Perseverance Perseverance........

As a part of that perserverance... 'testing', being sober, being vigilant, 'watching'.... praying in the Holy Ghost.. 'keeping' yourselves in the Love of God.. looking for His mercy unto Eternal Life...

But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Greetings TBD,

All God centered! If we try to perservere in our strength then we will fail. But when our focus is on what God does, rather than what we think we can do for Him, we look to Him to sustain us through this life.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Many Blessings,
RW

Diolectic
Nov 21st 2008, 06:42 PM
-----------------------------------------------------

Now unto HIM, that is 'able' to 'keep' you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24-25Notice that HE is only able to keepr from falling.
It don't say that HE will keep you from falling.

Diolectic
Nov 21st 2008, 06:46 PM
Greetings TBD,

All God centered! If we try to perservere in our strength then we will fail. That is why we apostasize. One does not remain Christ centered.
I know one who was full of the Spirit and faith.
However she fell away in the "Toronto blessing" junk and now she will have nothing to do with the chusrch.

There are to many examples of aposatcy to claime that Perseverance of the Saints is true.
If it was, there would not be any warning in the Bible about doung so.

Yukerboy
Nov 21st 2008, 10:19 PM
The warnings are to make your election sure. Those who "fall away" never belonged to Christ as John says "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

Those who remain with us belong to us. Those who do not remain with us did not really belong to us.

looking4jesus
Nov 21st 2008, 10:33 PM
Wikipedia definition in Black, Scripture in Purple

None who are truly saved can be condemned for their sins or finally fall away from the faith (For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.; whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.; All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.; The sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.; there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.; Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.; for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.; He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.; he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.; it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.; it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.; Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession; he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.; When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.; May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.; by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy; we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.; who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.; They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.; No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.; Everyone born of God overcomes the world.; I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.; anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.)

You could almost type out the whole Bible to prove this point. Wikipedia...5 for 5.

I do not get it every word in this post makes vaild the OSAS doctrine and so many simply do not get the truth of it.
God Bless
Randy

Butch5
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:09 AM
-----------------------------------------------------

Now unto HIM, that is 'able' to 'keep' you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24-25


Just because He can doesn't mean He will.

Butch5
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:10 AM
I do not get it every word in this post makes vaild the OSAS doctrine and so many simply do not get the truth of it.
God Bless
Randy

It's simple they are out of context.

Yukerboy
Nov 22nd 2008, 02:38 AM
It's simple they are out of context.

The above quote is the standard NOSAS euphemism for "I don't care what the Bible says, I'm sticking to my guns".

If I had quoted the whole Bible, it wouldn't matter to you.

Either all of the Bible is true, or none of it is. Even if one or two verses is taken out of context as you say, then the other 468 passages would still be applicable.

God doesn't make mistakes, he shows throughout the Bible that Perseverance of the Saints is a fact.

looking4jesus
Nov 22nd 2008, 02:48 AM
The above quote is the standard NOSAS euphemism for "I don't care what the Bible says, I'm sticking to my guns".

If I had quoted the whole Bible, it wouldn't matter to you.

Either all of the Bible is true, or none of it is. Even if one or two verses is taken out of context as you say, then the other 468 passages would still be applicable.

God doesn't make mistakes, he shows throughout the Bible that Perseverance of the Saints is a fact.

Amen I am afraid that some here have their hearts harden That is why they cannot see the truth.
God Bless
Randy

9Marksfan
Nov 22nd 2008, 11:21 PM
Notice that HE is only able to keepr from falling.
It don't say that HE will keep you from falling.

Well it wouldn't be much of a promise if He didn't, now, would it? But elsewhere it actually says He will.....

Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful. 1 Cor 1:7-9 NIV

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it. 1 Thess 5:23-24 NIV

I'd make the letters even bigger if I could! Notice that it's all about God's faithfulness and commitment to us - we can't apostasize because He won't let us do so ultimately - He WILL bring us back, if we are His. And if we are those who persist in apostasy - we were never His in the first place - "I never knew you" - not "I no longer know you".

9Marksfan
Nov 22nd 2008, 11:22 PM
Just because He can doesn't mean He will.

See my post #15.

Diolectic
Nov 23rd 2008, 01:35 AM
Notice that HE is only able to keep from falling.
It don't say that HE will keep you from falling.Well it wouldn't be much of a promise if He didn't, now, would it? But elsewhere it actually says He will.....It ain't a promise.
It is an acclamation, adulation, commendation...ect...


Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful. 1 Cor 1:7-9 NIVNotice, it says that "as you eagerly wait for Him".
One needs to continue to eagerly wait for Him to keep you strong and for you to not lack in any spiritual gift.


May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it. 1 Thess 5:23-24 NIVSure He will if you don't apostasize.


I'd make the letters even bigger if I could! Notice that it's all about God's faithfulness and commitment to us Yah, but what about our faithfulness to Him?


-we can't apostasize because He won't let us do so ultimatelyIf I'm correct, your talking about that God will have you die before you actually fall from grace.
How do you know this?
Why so many warning about it if one can not do so?


He WILL bring us back, if we are His.John 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.


And if we are those who persist in apostasy - we were never His in the first place - "I never knew you" - not "I no longer know you".Were those of His that didn't receive him in John 1:11 ever his in the first place?

Butch5
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:53 AM
See my post #15.

Nigel,

The problem is that you will not consider context. You have your doctrine and you use Scripture verses to prove it. If you notice the Scripture verses are written to believers, so the most you can prove from this is that God "will" keep believers. In order to prove that a person cannot apostatize you need to prove that a person cannot turn away from God, And Scripture is clear on this point.


Hebrews 3:12 ( KJV ) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hebrews 10:38-39 ( KJV ) 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 Timothy 1:19 ( KJV ) 19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 ( KJV ) 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Matthew 24:10-14 ( KJV ) 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

There are plenty more, you see it is these Scriptures that you must reconcile with you doctrine. The Scriptures you posted are 100% true, however, they are only true of the person who continues to believe, or as Jesus said he who endures to the end. You see all of hte Scriptures that say, He will, are referring to believers, they do not say that a person cannot turn away from God.

Butch5
Nov 23rd 2008, 04:03 AM
The above quote is the standard NOSAS euphemism for "I don't care what the Bible says, I'm sticking to my guns".

If I had quoted the whole Bible, it wouldn't matter to you.

Either all of the Bible is true, or none of it is. Even if one or two verses is taken out of context as you say, then the other 468 passages would still be applicable.

God doesn't make mistakes, he shows throughout the Bible that Perseverance of the Saints is a fact.


My friend, all of those verses are written to believers, I don't think anyone will say that God will not keep believers. Now, if you want to prove perseverance of the saints, post Scripture that says a believer cannot turn from Christ. Here are a few that state a believer "CAN: turn from Christ.
Hebrews 3:12 ( KJV ) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hebrews 10:38-39 ( KJV ) 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 Timothy 1:19 ( KJV ) 19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 ( KJV ) 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Matthew 24:10-14 ( KJV ) 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Butch5
Nov 23rd 2008, 04:04 AM
Amen I am afraid that some here have their hearts harden That is why they cannot see the truth.
God Bless
Randy

I think it is more like some people will not.

RogerW
Nov 23rd 2008, 06:39 PM
My friend, all of those verses are written to believers, I don't think anyone will say that God will not keep believers. Now, if you want to prove perseverance of the saints, post Scripture that says a believer cannot turn from Christ. Here are a few that state a believer "CAN: turn from Christ.
Hebrews 3:12 ( KJV ) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

How could you think this is believers departing from the living God, when very clearly it is those who have hearts of UNBELIEF? If they have hearts of unbelief, they cannot be believers!



Hebrews 10:38-39 ( KJV ) 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

"THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH"...so the one who draws back is not among the just who live by faith! Did you miss that part of the verse that says, "But we are NOT of them who draw back"..."but of them that believe [live by faith] to the saving of the soul"?



1 Timothy 1:19 ( KJV ) 19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

If this is speaking to believers that God will keep, how can they make shipwreck of faith? What kind of faith are they making shipwreck? If it is saving faith, what happened to God keeping them from falling? So who made shipwreck of faith? Blasphemers!!!

1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.



2 Thessalonians 2:3 ( KJV ) 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And who exactly is falling away? "...them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."



Matthew 24:10-14 ( KJV ) 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

How will believers endure to the end? Through God Who justifies us, and Christ Who is making intercession for us continually.

Butch,

You are sending the most conflicted commentary I have ever heard. On one hand you agree that God will keep believers...but then you insist that He will not??? And your arguement is based on the assumption that believers can turn from Christ??? This makes zero sense! If God keeps believers, then certainly He will also keep them from turning away.

It is God Who justifies us, and Christ is at the right hand of God making intercession for us. What would cause a believer to turn from the love of God? Not tribulation, not distress, not persecution, not famine, not nakedness, or peril, or sword. No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Christ Who loves us. What else could cause the believer to turn away from Christ? Not death, NOR LIFE, not messengers, not principalities, not powers, NOT THINGS PRESENT OR THINGS TO COME, not height, not death, nor any other creature shall be able to separate believers from the love of God, which is not in ourselves, but in Christ.

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Ro 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now you'll argue that nothing can separate us from Him, but we can separate ourselves if we choose to. What part of NOTHING, or NO CREATED ANYTHING do you not understand? Would you not agree that we are created beings, and would you not also agree that if we could separate ourselves from His love...that we would be separated, and He promises we can never be separated from His love?

To believe your doctrine I would have to conclude that the Bible is contradictory and a lie.

Blessings,
RW

Rhyfelwr
Nov 23rd 2008, 09:05 PM
If you think that Jesus is in the heart of believers, how then could you possibly think that someone with Jesus in their heart would reject him for sin? Is sin more powerful than the love of the Lord?

Diolectic
Nov 23rd 2008, 11:39 PM
If you think that Jesus is in the heart of believers, how then could you possibly think that someone with Jesus in their heart would reject him for sin? Is sin more powerful than the love of the Lord?If one becaome decieve in another gosple, what do you think?
2Corinth 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
11:4 For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him.

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 01:38 AM
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How could you think this is believers departing from the living God, when very clearly it is those who have hearts of UNBELIEF? If they have hearts of unbelief, they cannot be believers!

[/font][/color]

"THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH"...so the one who draws back is not among the just who live by faith! Did you miss that part of the verse that says, "But we are NOT of them who draw back"..."but of them that believe [live by faith] to the saving of the soul"?

[/font][/color]

If this is speaking to believers that God will keep, how can they make shipwreck of faith? What kind of faith are they making shipwreck? If it is saving faith, what happened to God keeping them from falling? So who made shipwreck of faith? Blasphemers!!!

1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

[/font][/color]

And who exactly is falling away? "...them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."



How will believers endure to the end? Through God Who justifies us, and Christ Who is making intercession for us continually.

Butch,

You are sending the most conflicted commentary I have ever heard. On one hand you agree that God will keep believers...but then you insist that He will not??? And your arguement is based on the assumption that believers can turn from Christ??? This makes zero sense! If God keeps believers, then certainly He will also keep them from turning away.

It is God Who justifies us, and Christ is at the right hand of God making intercession for us. What would cause a believer to turn from the love of God? Not tribulation, not distress, not persecution, not famine, not nakedness, or peril, or sword. No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Christ Who loves us. What else could cause the believer to turn away from Christ? Not death, NOR LIFE, not messengers, not principalities, not powers, NOT THINGS PRESENT OR THINGS TO COME, not height, not death, nor any other creature shall be able to separate believers from the love of God, which is not in ourselves, but in Christ.

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Ro 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now you'll argue that nothing can separate us from Him, but we can separate ourselves if we choose to. What part of NOTHING, or NO CREATED ANYTHING do you not understand? Would you not agree that we are created beings, and would you not also agree that if we could separate ourselves from His love...that we would be separated, and He promises we can never be separated from His love?

To believe your doctrine I would have to conclude that the Bible is contradictory and a lie.

Blessings,
RW

Roger, your entire doctrine is based on assumptions, every one of the verses that I posted is speaking of believers, yet you claim otherwise, in spite of what the Scripture says.

There is no conflicting commentary in what I have stated. It is your assumptions that will not allow the commentary that I have stated.

I have stated that God will absolutely keep everyone who believes in, and continues, to believe in Him. However, as Scripture states, a person "CAN" turn form Christ and God "WILL NOT" keep the person who turns from Christ.

God is able to keep anyone, yet He has said that He will only keep those who love Him.

Do you care to show Scripture that says a person cannot, at some point love God, and Later not love God.

Consider this,

John 15:1-8 ( KJV ) 1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Definition for Abide,

Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

G3306 μένω menō men'-o A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):—abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

Here is Young's literal tranlation,

John 15:5-7 ( YLT ) 5‘I am the vine, ye the branches; he who is remaining in me, and I in him, this one doth bear much fruit, because apart from me ye are not able to do anything; 6if any one may not remain in me, he was cast forth without as the branch, and was withered, and they gather them, and cast to fire, and they are burned; 7if ye may remain in me, and my sayings in you may remain, whatever ye may wish ye shall ask, and it shall be done to you.

"IF ANYONE MAY NOT REMAIN", You cannot remain in Christ, if you were not in Christ to begin with.


Roger---How could you think this is believers departing from the living God, when very clearly it is those who have hearts of UNBELIEF? If they have hearts of unbelief, they cannot be believers!



Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

The High Priest of "OUR" profession.


Roger--- "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH"...so the one who draws back is not among the just who live by faith! Did you miss that part of the verse that says, "But we are NOT of them who draw back"..."but of them that believe [live by faith] to the saving of the soul"?


No, I didn't miss it. However, consider the part you quoted. The writer says we are not of them. So clearly there is a group that does draw back, He says they are not of that group. So, the part you quoted, clearly shows that a person can draw back.

Also, a person cannot draw back from where they have never been. You can't leave a place that you were never at.



Roger---If this is speaking to believers that God will keep, how can they make shipwreck of faith? What kind of faith are they making shipwreck? If it is saving faith, what happened to God keeping them from falling? So who made shipwreck of faith? Blasphemers!!!

1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.



The Bible doesn't differentiate, people either have faith or they don't.

Saving faith is a phrase that is used by those who try to disprove the conditional aspects of the Scriptures. It is a phrase used to support the doctrine of OSAS. It is not a phrase of Scripture.

God only keeps those who want to be kept.


Roger---And who exactly is falling away? "...them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."


Again Roger, you overlook the obvious, they "FELL AWAY", you cannot fall away from where you never were. In order to fall away form Christ, one "MUST" have been "IN CHRIST".


Roger---How will believers endure to the end? Through God Who justifies us, and Christ Who is making intercession for us continually.


Revelation 3:1-5 ( KJV ) 1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

That my friend is how one endures to the end. Your works before God.


Roger---It is God Who justifies us, and Christ is at the right hand of God making intercession for us. What would cause a believer to turn from the love of God? Not tribulation, not distress, not persecution, not famine, not nakedness, or peril, or sword. No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Christ Who loves us. What else could cause the believer to turn away from Christ? Not death, NOR LIFE, not messengers, not principalities, not powers, NOT THINGS PRESENT OR THINGS TO COME, not height, not death, nor any other creature shall be able to separate believers from the love of God, which is not in ourselves, but in Christ.

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Ro 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now you'll argue that nothing can separate us from Him, but we can separate ourselves if we choose to. What part of NOTHING, or NO CREATED ANYTHING do you not understand? Would you not agree that we are created beings, and would you not also agree that if we could separate ourselves from His love...that we would be separated, and He promises we can never be separated from His love?


No, see the problem is, you read what you want the Sccripture to say. It doesn't say, nothing can separate us from God. It says nothing can separate us from the "LOVE" of God. Big difference. What can separate us from the love of God, nothing, remember what Jesus said?

John 3:16 ( KJV ) 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Is everyone going to be saved? God loved the world, so no, nothing can separate us from His love. However that does not mean that everyone will be saved.

The question isn't can anything separate us from the love of God? The questoion is can anything seaprate "US" from God? And the answer is yes,


Hebrews 3:12 ( KJV ) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Again, you can't depart if you were never there.

Continued,

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 01:39 AM
Or here,


Ezekiel 3:16-21 ( KJV ) 16And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.


Ezekiel 33:10-20 ( KJV ) 10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. 13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. 17Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. 18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 19But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. 20Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

This verse is powerful,

13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.


God has declared Him righteous, He calls him a righteous man and says he shall surely live. Is that not declared righteous? Yet God say in the day he trusts in his own righteousness (himself) and commits iniquity, he will die. So clearly, according to God, if He declares a man righteous, it is not permanent. The man must continue in being righteous or he will die.

Your doctrine simply tries to explain these away.

BroRog
Nov 24th 2008, 01:57 AM
Just because He can doesn't mean He will.

Why wouldn't he!

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 02:03 AM
Why wouldn't he!

If a man chooses not to remain in Him.


John 15:6 ( KJV ) 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

BroRog
Nov 24th 2008, 02:38 PM
If a man chooses not to remain in Him.


John 15:6 ( KJV ) 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

The verse in question speaks concerning what God will do. Why do you quote a verse concerning what man will do?

Butch5
Nov 24th 2008, 08:16 PM
The verse in question speaks concerning what God will do. Why do you quote a verse concerning what man will do?

It's simply, Jesus said that God will do according to what we do.


John 14:21 ( KJV ) 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23 ( KJV ) 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

If we keep His commands, He promised to dwell with us. Notice Jesus said He will manifest Himself to those who love Him. Those who love Him? Aren't they the called according to His purposed, those He foreknew, those He predestined?

9Marksfan
Nov 25th 2008, 10:15 AM
It ain't a promise.
It is an acclamation, adulation, commendation...ect...

Well if we're going to quibble about semantics........:B

Yes, it is a doxology - praise to God for His keeping power!!!! It wouldn't be that great is He chose not to exercise it just because we fell out of line (which we all do, of course.....).


Notice, it says that "as you eagerly wait for Him".
One needs to continue to eagerly wait for Him to keep you strong and for you to not lack in any spiritual gift.

You have it the wrong way round - he has witnessed the genuineness of their faith (not lacking/eagerly waiting) and BECAUSE of that evidence, he knows they are genuine - and that God's covenant promises apply to them!


Sure He will if you don't apostasize.

Then why isn't there a humoungous "if" in there?


Yah, but what about our faithfulness to Him?

Indeed, he will be made to stand, because God is able to make him stand. Rom 14:4b NKJV


If I'm correct, your talking about that God will have you die before you actually fall from grace.
How do you know this?

I'm not saying that Christians can't fall from grace - of course they can. But God will ULTIMATELY bring them back, if they are His - Peter is the classic example. He fell, but he did not apostasize - because Christ prayed for him - as he prays for ALL believers to be kept - ultimately.


Why so many warning about it if one can not do so?

Because the warnings are to the visible church and always have to be - the perfect, 100% regenerate church only exists in Heaven - down here it's sheep and goats, wise and foolish virgins/builders, good and bad servants/fish and wheat and tares - the NT writers give everyone the benefit of their professions of faith when addressing them as "brethren" - but they know that there are those among them who will have an evil heart of unbelief - those "named as a brother" among them (1 Cor 5:11) who are make-believers.......hence the warnings - to get ourselves to make sure we ARE truly saved - perseverance doesn't take place in a vacuum - it involves our wholeheearted consecration - on that I'm sure we are agreed.


John 1:11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

Were those of His that didn't receive him in John 1:11 ever his in the first place?

Not salvifically - it means the Jews - and He was "born King of the Jews".

9Marksfan
Nov 25th 2008, 10:35 AM
Nigel,

The problem is that you will not consider context. You have your doctrine and you use Scripture verses to prove it. If you notice the Scripture verses are written to believers, so the most you can prove from this is that God "will" keep believers. In order to prove that a person cannot apostatize you need to prove that a person cannot turn away from God,

I completely believe that even elect believers can apostasize temporarily - but I do not believe that Scripture teaches that those who apostasize permanently were elect believers - predestined, called, justified and glorified. Apostasy would interrupt and eternally frustrate that truth.


And Scripture is clear on this point.


Hebrews 3:12 ( KJV ) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hebrews 10:38-39 ( KJV ) 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

As I said in post #30, I believe that the writer of Hebrews (in common with all NT writers) is making a gracious assumption about his readers - they profess to be believers so he calls them brethren - but only God knows how many of them are genuine - the writer knows the reality of professing believers apostasizing and he knows that we are ALL capable of doing this - APART FROM THE PERSEVERING GRACE OF GOD. So the warnings are appropriate for all - so that those who DO apostasize permanently will have no excuse on the Day - so that those who think they are saved but aren't might repent and BE saved - and so that true believers might persevere, which is God's plan and will for all of His elect - that they might make their calling and election SURE.


1 Timothy 1:19 ( KJV ) 19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: [quote]

Not all faith is saving faith, as James makes clear in his letter. It could also be referring to "the faith" - ie the body of divinity that was once subscribed to, which they have now (possibly temporarily) rejected.

[quote]2 Thessalonians 2:3 ( KJV ) 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Yes, many in the visible, professing church will fall away from the faith - but their assent to it was not real - only intellectual and/or emotional - no heart change - no new birth.


Matthew 24:10-14 ( KJV ) 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Agreed - but it doesn't say the many were saved - indeed, this is one of my favourite verses on POTS - genuine faith MUST and WILL endure to the end - otherwise it was never real inm tjhe first place - eternal life is not only eternal in its duration - but also in its quality - once it is received, it cannot be lost.


There are plenty more, you see it is these Scriptures that you must reconcile with you doctrine.

I always thought it was the other way round. But I believe my doctrine can indeed be reconciled with these Scriptures. Once one accepts the glaringly obvious truth of a mixed, visible church that is not 100% regenerate, then it all falls into place.


The Scriptures you posted are 100% true, however, they are only true of the person who continues to believe, or as Jesus said he who endures to the end.

Amen - glad we're agreed on that! :)


You see all of hte Scriptures that say, He will, are referring to believers, they do not say that a person cannot turn away from God.

Again, agreed - that maybe surprises you, but that's the difference between OSAS and POTS! I believe that both OSAS and NOSAS are unbiblical and that POTS is the closest to the teaching of all these Scriptures, in context, as a whole.

Yukerboy
Nov 25th 2008, 02:36 PM
Everyone born of God overcomes the world.
He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us

I really don't know how much more blunt the Bible has to be...

BroRog
Nov 25th 2008, 02:51 PM
It's simply, Jesus said that God will do according to what we do.


John 14:21 ( KJV ) 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23 ( KJV ) 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

If we keep His commands, He promised to dwell with us. Notice Jesus said He will manifest Himself to those who love Him. Those who love Him? Aren't they the called according to His purposed, those He foreknew, those He predestined?

Listen Butch, what I am about to say is not directed at you personally. But I need to say it because I think these kinds of discussions can be destructive to those others reading this discussion who might lose hope can give up on the faith.

To continually emphasize the verses with a conditional aspect has the potential of causing another brother to stumble, robbing him or her of hope. Sometimes hope is all we got at the moment; and when hope dies, we die, physically and spiritually.

Later today I will show you some scriptures that will raise the hopes of many on this board but I don't have time this morning to post them. In the mean time, please find a balance between what the Bible says about man's capability and what it says about God's capability.

John146
Nov 25th 2008, 06:49 PM
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How could you think this is believers departing from the living God, when very clearly it is those who have hearts of UNBELIEF? If they have hearts of unbelief, they cannot be believers! Let's take a closer look at the context to determine who Paul (or whoever wrote Hebrews) is writing to.

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

This verse shows clearly that he is writing to believers. That is the proper context here.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Here, he is warning these same believers that he earlier called "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" about being careful not to harden their hearts to the point that they would "depart from the living God".

Butch5
Nov 25th 2008, 09:22 PM
I completely believe that even elect believers can apostasize temporarily - but I do not believe that Scripture teaches that those who apostasize permanently were elect believers - predestined, called, justified and glorified. Apostasy would interrupt and eternally frustrate that truth.


As I said in post #30, I believe that the writer of Hebrews (in common with all NT writers) is making a gracious assumption about his readers - they profess to be believers so he calls them brethren - but only God knows how many of them are genuine - the writer knows the reality of professing believers apostasizing and he knows that we are ALL capable of doing this - APART FROM THE PERSEVERING GRACE OF GOD. So the warnings are appropriate for all - so that those who DO apostasize permanently will have no excuse on the Day - so that those who think they are saved but aren't might repent and BE saved - and so that true believers might persevere, which is God's plan and will for all of His elect - that they might make their calling and election SURE.


1 Timothy 1:19 ( KJV ) 19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:


Not all faith is saving faith, as James makes clear in his letter. It could also be referring to "the faith" - ie the body of divinity that was once subscribed to, which they have now (possibly temporarily) rejected.


Yes, many in the visible, professing church will fall away from the faith - but their assent to it was not real - only intellectual and/or emotional - no heart change - no new birth.


Agreed - but it doesn't say the many were saved - indeed, this is one of my favourite verses on POTS - genuine faith MUST and WILL endure to the end - otherwise it was never real inm tjhe first place - eternal life is not only eternal in its duration - but also in its quality - once it is received, it cannot be lost.


I always thought it was the other way round. But I believe my doctrine can indeed be reconciled with these Scriptures. Once one accepts the glaringly obvious truth of a mixed, visible church that is not 100% regenerate, then it all falls into place.


Amen - glad we're agreed on that! :)


Again, agreed - that maybe surprises you, but that's the difference between OSAS and POTS! I believe that both OSAS and NOSAS are unbiblical and that POTS is the closest to the teaching of all these Scriptures, in context, as a whole.

Please show me Scripture that speaks of this mixed church.

Butch5
Nov 25th 2008, 09:23 PM
Everyone born of God overcomes the world.
He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us

I really don't know how much more blunt the Bible has to be...

Put it in context.

Butch5
Nov 25th 2008, 09:39 PM
Listen Butch, what I am about to say is not directed at you personally. But I need to say it because I think these kinds of discussions can be destructive to those others reading this discussion who might lose hope can give up on the faith.

To continually emphasize the verses with a conditional aspect has the potential of causing another brother to stumble, robbing him or her of hope. Sometimes hope is all we got at the moment; and when hope dies, we die, physically and spiritually.

Later today I will show you some scriptures that will raise the hopes of many on this board but I don't have time this morning to post them. In the mean time, please find a balance between what the Bible says about man's capability and what it says about God's capability.


BroRog,

I have not once denied that God is capable and willing to save. However there are those who for whatever reason refuse to acknowledge their responsibility. Scripture clearly states that we are responsible for good works, and it clearly states that we will be judged according to these good works. I don't see how stating this will cause a brother to stumble. What will cause a brother to stumble is someone telling them that they cannot be lost no matter what they do. I KNOW, I WAS ONE WHO STUMBLED. I was taught this same teaching. It is a farce, we need to remember that we will be held accountable as teachers, we will be held to a higher standing. Remember what Paul said in 1 Corinthians, whoever builds on this foundation. If we Build with wood and stubble it will be burned up, but if we build with gold and silver, it will last when tried. However, if what I say makes someone live holy, and it turns out that I am wrong what has been lost? Nothing. However, what if someone believes OSAS and lives according to the world, and it turns out that they are wrong, what is lost??? Eternal life. What will God require at the hand of the man who taught OSAS???

I have made my statement and no one has as yet provided a single verse of Scripture to prove that a person cannot be lost.

In order to prove OSAS, one "MUST" prove that a person cannot turn from Christ. "NO ONE" has yet done this.

People will post verse after verse that states that God will save the believer, or the believer will endure because God will keep him.

I don't think anyone doubts that God will keep a believer. I think God will do anything in His power to keep a believer.So all of these verses that keep getting posted over and over are "NOT" dealing with the issue and are "NOT" proving that a person cannot be lost. It is a simple matter,

SHOW ONE VERSE THAT SAYS A PERSON CANNOT TURN FROM CHRIST.

Butch5
Nov 25th 2008, 10:06 PM
Marksfan9---I completely believe that even elect believers can apostasize temporarily - but I do not believe that Scripture teaches that those who apostasize permanently were elect believers - predestined, called, justified and glorified. Apostasy would interrupt and eternally frustrate that truth.

Nigel, you are interpreting Scripture based on your presuppositions. Look at what you said.
Apostasy would interrupt and eternally frustrate that truth.
How would it frustrate the truth? You have already determined what hte truth is, so what ever doesn't fit into your doctrine you must modify.



Marksfan9---As I said in post #30, I believe that the writer of Hebrews (in common with all NT writers) is making a gracious assumption about his readers - they profess to be believers so he calls them brethren - but only God knows how many of them are genuine - the writer knows the reality of professing believers apostasizing and he knows that we are ALL capable of doing this - APART FROM THE PERSEVERING GRACE OF GOD. So the warnings are appropriate for all - so that those who DO apostasize permanently will have no excuse on the Day - so that those who think they are saved but aren't might repent and BE saved - and so that true believers might persevere, which is God's plan and will for all of His elect - that they might make their calling and election SURE.


That's a mighty big assumption based on no Scriptural evidence from that passage. You are assuming to know what the writers thought and meant???


Marksfan9---Not all faith is saving faith, as James makes clear in his letter. It could also be referring to "the faith" - ie the body of divinity that was once subscribed to, which they have now (possibly temporarily) rejected.

Sorry, you either have faith or you don't. James is making a distinction between those who say they have faith, and yet have no works and those who have faith and works. Faith with no works is dead, if is not faith.


Marksfan9---Yes, many in the visible, professing church will fall away from the faith - but their assent to it was not real - only intellectual and/or emotional - no heart change - no new birth.
Now you know what those in the Church at thessalonica thought??? How do you know they their assent was not real??? Based on you presuppositions. Does Paul say their faith was not real????


Again you cannot fall away form where you have never been.


Marksfan9---Agreed - but it doesn't say the many were saved - indeed, this is one of my favourite verses on POTS - genuine faith MUST and WILL endure to the end - otherwise it was never real inm tjhe first place - eternal life is not only eternal in its duration - but also in its quality - once it is received, it cannot be lost.


Again, you interpret Scripture based on your presupposition. But he who endures to the end, is of the same group, as those whose love waxes cold. Only believers can endure to the end, therefore the group has to be believers.

I'll agree eternal life can't be lost once you get it, however, you don't get it till the judgment. Notice Jesus words,

Revelation 2:7 ( YLT ) 7He who is having an ear—let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: To him who is overcoming—I will give to him to eat of the tree of life that is in the midst of the paradise of God.



Marksfan9---I always thought it was the other way round. But I believe my doctrine can indeed be reconciled with these Scriptures. Once one accepts the glaringly obvious truth of a mixed, visible church that is not 100% regenerate, then it all falls into place.

The Scriptures DO NOT speak of this mixed church that you speak of. Therefore you are imposing this on the text. My guess is to support your doctrine of OSAS. Show me where the Scriptures speak of this mixed church.


Marksfan9---Again, agreed - that maybe surprises you, but that's the difference between OSAS and POTS! I believe that both OSAS and NOSAS are unbiblical and that POTS is the closest to the teaching of all these Scriptures, in context, as a whole.

Again, show me where Scripture says a believer cannot turn away from Christ, and I will be in agreement with you.

Yukerboy
Nov 25th 2008, 11:10 PM
show me where Scripture says a believer cannot turn away from Christ

The sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Jesus states here He has given His sheep eternal life. His sheep cannot be led astray. His sheep follow Him.

for God's gifts (the gift of God is eternal life, a gift of God is faith, a gift of God is repentance, a gift of God is grace) and his call are irrevocable.;

God gives eternal life. It is irrevocable. If a believer turns away, then either he never had eternal life given to him, or he will never turn away. God doesn't make mistakes.

it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ and we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved

This one is as blunt as it gets. If you do not stand firm in Christ, then you never really belonged to Christ. It is nothing you do to persevere, but God working in you who MAKES you persevere.

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God

If you have been born of God, you will not sin. You cannot sin, because you have been born of God. Is turning away sin? If so, then the person turning away was not born of God.

Everyone born of God overcomes the world.

Not most everyone. Nope, every single one of those who have been born of God will overcome, will persevere.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life

Not may have eternal life. Not put any conditions on it. You who believe have eternal life, and as Paul said, eternal life is a gift and God's gifts are irrevocable.

I know, I know, the whole last resort thing. Go ahead. Tell me the whole Bible is being taken out of context....

BroRog
Nov 26th 2008, 01:55 AM
BroRog,

I have not once denied that God is capable and willing to save.

Granted, however, and this is extremely important, I have never heard you say that a believer can have a confident expectation of salvation. The picture you paint of the saint is a man or woman in a constant state of ambiguity, not ever knowing whether he or she will be saved. You give the reader no reason to expect that salvation will be the final outcome of their life because anytime hope raises its head you bop it like a carnival gopher.

Your picture constantly robs the gospel of hope.

You may not think so, but it does. In your picture, a person can never have a confident or reasonable expectation of salvation because, in your view, the saint can never be sure that he or she might fall from grace. You continually argue that since a person is able to fall from grace, it means that for the rest of our lives we can never be sure we won't. The picture you paint, as you constantly beat the drum of contingency, is one of a foolish saint who walks by a naive faith, not really sure where it will lead.


However there are those who for whatever reason refuse to acknowledge their responsibility. Scripture clearly states that we are responsible for good works, and it clearly states that we will be judged according to these good works. I don't see how stating this will cause a brother to stumble.

If someone were convinced by your constant emphasis on the contingency of salvation that all hope is lost, then you have caused that brother to stumble.


What will cause a brother to stumble is someone telling them that they cannot be lost no matter what they do.


Yes, that is certainly the other end of the spectrum. But I don't remember reading anything in this thread that remotely sounds like that.


However, what if someone believes OSAS and lives according to the world, and it turns out that they are wrong, what is lost??? Eternal life. What will God require at the hand of the man who taught OSAS???


Maybe you don't know this, but this thread has nothing at all to do with OSAS. As Marksfan says, POTS is different than OSAS.


I have made my statement and no one has as yet provided a single verse of Scripture to prove that a person cannot be lost.

Certainly they have. You just don't share the same interpretation of the relevant passages with them.


I don't think anyone doubts that God will keep a believer. I think God will do anything in His power to keep a believer.

The question is, how much power do you think God has? :)


So all of these verses that keep getting posted over and over are "NOT" dealing with the issue and are "NOT" proving that a person cannot be lost.


I suspect the reason for this has to do with how we shape the question.

This thread is not about OSAS, but since we have gone that way, I'll share this.

This debate never ends because either one side or the other, or both sides start with an incorrect notion: when a man or woman becomes a believer he or she is saved. Consequently, those who argue against OSAS demonstrate from scripture, like you have done, that it is possible for a believer to fall away from the faith.

I absolutely agree that the Bible teaches that a man is capable of falling away from the faith. Nonetheless, to prove that a man can fall away from the faith is simply a rebuttal of "once believed always believed". You and the others who argue against OSAS on this basis can't understand why the rest of us are not convinced. After all, if we begin with the notion that a man is saved as soon as he confesses his faith, then obviously, if he falls from the faith he has lost his salvation. The syllogism looks like this.

a. a man is saved as soon as he believes.
b. it is possible for a man to fall from belief.
c. therefore a man can abdicate his salvation.

The conclusion logically follows from the premise. And so why the debate?

The reason I debate the issue is because I do NOT affirm the first premise: that a man (or a woman) is saved as soon as he believes. You can argue for the second premise all day long and well into the cold dark night and it won't make a difference, because unless a person affirms both of the predicates, the conclusion will not follow.

Of course, we can multiply the number of verses that indicate a man can fall from faith and turn from Christ. We have tons of them. But unless you can prove that the first premise is scriptural, as well as the second, the conclusion does not follow.

But I can show you where three seperate apostles teach us that a man can know for certain, with 100% certainty that he (or she) belongs to God and the final outcome of his life will definitely be salvation. I can show you this if you are willing to conclude your attempt to prove the second premise, which many if not all those in this thread already concede.

Butch5
Nov 26th 2008, 03:16 AM
BroRog---Granted, however, and this is extremely important, I have never heard you say that a believer can have a confident expectation of salvation. The picture you paint of the saint is a man or woman in a constant state of ambiguity, not ever knowing whether he or she will be saved. You give the reader no reason to expect that salvation will be the final outcome of their life because anytime hope raises its head you bop it like a carnival gopher.

Your picture constantly robs the gospel of hope.

You may not think so, but it does. In your picture, a person can never have a confident or reasonable expectation of salvation because, in your view, the saint can never be sure that he or she might fall from grace. You continually argue that since a person is able to fall from grace, it means that for the rest of our lives we can never be sure we won't. The picture you paint, as you constantly beat the drum of contingency, is one of a foolish saint who walks by a naive faith, not really sure where it will lead.

Maybe you should read more of my posts. I have stated that a person is in a saved state at belief. (not ultimately saved until the judgment). So I do not start with the premise you claim. I have stated that God will keep the believer. When these guys posted verses saying no can snatch us from the fathers hand, I said verse like this are 100% true, for the believer. So I don't see where you say I give people no hope.


BroRog---If someone were convinced by your constant emphasis on the contingency of salvation that all hope is lost, then you have caused that brother to stumble.


I have never said all hope is lost. I have said that one is kept as long as one continues to believe.



BroRog---Yes, that is certainly the other end of the spectrum. But I don't remember reading anything in this thread that remotely sounds like that.


Maybe you don't know this, but this thread has nothing at all to do with OSAS. As Marksfan says, POTS is different than OSAS.


Semantics, my friend, there are the same thing. POTS---one perseveres to the end because God keeps him. OSAS--- one cannot lose salvation because God keeps him.



BroRog---Certainly they have. You just don't share the same interpretation of the relevant passages with them.

It's not a matter of interpretation, it's a matter of context.


BroRog---The question is, how much power do you think God has?

That's not the question.


BroRog---I suspect the reason for this has to do with how we shape the question.

This thread is not about OSAS, but since we have gone that way, I'll share this.

This debate never ends because either one side or the other, or both sides start with an incorrect notion: when a man or woman becomes a believer he or she is saved. Consequently, those who argue against OSAS demonstrate from scripture, like you have done, that it is possible for a believer to fall away from the faith.

I absolutely agree that the Bible teaches that a man is capable of falling away from the faith. Nonetheless, to prove that a man can fall away from the faith is simply a rebuttal of "once believed always believed". You and the others who argue against OSAS on this basis can't understand why the rest of us are not convinced. After all, if we begin with the notion that a man is saved as soon as he confesses his faith, then obviously, if he falls from the faith he has lost his salvation. The syllogism looks like this.

a. a man is saved as soon as he believes.
b. it is possible for a man to fall from belief.
c. therefore a man can abdicate his salvation.

The conclusion logically follows from the premise. And so why the debate?

The reason I debate the issue is because I do NOT affirm the first premise: that a man (or a woman) is saved as soon as he believes. You can argue for the second premise all day long and well into the cold dark night and it won't make a difference, because unless a person affirms both of the predicates, the conclusion will not follow.

Of course, we can multiply the number of verses that indicate a man can fall from faith and turn from Christ. We have tons of them. But unless you can prove that the first premise is scriptural, as well as the second, the conclusion does not follow.

But I can show you where three seperate apostles teach us that a man can know for certain, with 100% certainty that he (or she) belongs to God and the final outcome of his life will definitely be salvation. I can show you this if you are willing to conclude your attempt to prove the second premise, which many if not all those in this thread already concede.

Well, as I stated above I do not hold the premise, I have stated this several times. You can show your 100% certainty if you wish, however it is not necessary. I have already stated that the one who is believing and continues to believe can be certain of eternal life and belonging to God.
As far a conceding the second point, I think you are the only one, other than those who are discussing this from the same position that I am.

Butch5
Nov 26th 2008, 03:51 AM
Yukerboy---The sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Jesus states here He has given His sheep eternal life. His sheep cannot be led astray. His sheep follow Him.

No, He says I give, not has given. Big difference. No one however, actually gets eternal life until the judgment.


Yukerboy---for God's gifts (the gift of God is eternal life, a gift of God is faith, a gift of God is repentance, a gift of God is grace) and his call are irrevocable.;

God gives eternal life. It is irrevocable. If a believer turns away, then either he never had eternal life given to him, or he will never turn away. God doesn't make mistakes.

As I said eternal life is given at the end, Jesus said,

Revelation 2:7 ( KJV ) 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.



Yukerboy---it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ and we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved

This one is as blunt as it gets. If you do not stand firm in Christ, then you never really belonged to Christ. It is nothing you do to persevere, but God working in you who MAKES you persevere.

Again, you "CANNOT" draw back if you were never there. You "CANNOT" draw back from Christ is you were never in Christ.



Yukerboy---No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God

If you have been born of God, you will not sin. You cannot sin, because you have been born of God. Is turning away sin? If so, then the person turning away was not born of God.

You are about the only one I know of who thinks a Christian can't sin.

Genesis 19:20-25 ( KJV ) 20Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live. 21And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken. 22Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. 23The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 25And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

So, I guess Jesus we unable to do anything at all until Lot got to Zoar??? He was incapable???

Genesis 31:35 ( KJV ) 35And she said to her father, Let it not displease my lord that I cannot rise up before thee; for the custom of women is upon me. And he searched, but found not the images.

I guess she was unable to stand???

Matthew 27:41-42 ( KJV ) 41Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, 42He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

Could Jesus not save Himself??? Was He incapable????

I think when John says a person born of God cannot sin, he means the person does not have permission to sin, he not to sin. John himself admits a Christian can sin.



Yukerboy---Everyone born of God overcomes the world.

Not most everyone. Nope, every single one of those who have been born of God will overcome, will persevere.

You forgot the rest of the verse,

1 John 5:4 ( KJV ) 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Everyone born of God that overcomes the world does it by faith. As I said, the one who continues to believe, will overcome, will get eternal life



Yukerboy---I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life

Not may have eternal life. Not put any conditions on it. You who believe have eternal life, and as Paul said, eternal life is a gift and God's gifts are irrevocable.

I know, I know, the whole last resort thing. Go ahead. Tell me the whole Bible is being taken out of context....

The condition is listed right in the verse you quoted, you who believe. As I said if you continue to believe then you will have eternal life.

Now, can you shoe me Scripture that says a person cannot turn from Christ. We all know and agree that God can and will keep believers.

possumliving
Nov 26th 2008, 04:09 AM
John 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. Whoever lives in Me and I in him bears much (abundant) fruit. However, apart from Me [cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a person does not dwell in Me, he is thrown out like a [broken-off] branch, and withers; such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If you live in Me [abide vitally united to Me] and My words remain in you {and} continue to live in your hearts, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.
John 15:8 When you bear (produce) much fruit, My Father is honored {and} glorified, and you show {and} prove yourselves to be true followers of Mine.
John 15:9 I have loved you, [just] as the Father has loved Me; abide in My love [continue in His love with Me].
John 15:10 If you keep My commandments [if you continue to obey My instructions], you will abide in My love {and} live on in it, just as I have obeyed My Father's commandments and live on in His love.


Rom 11:22 Then note {and} appreciate the gracious kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's gracious kindness to you--provided you continue in His grace {and} abide in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off (pruned away).

1 John 2:27 But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].

possumliving
Nov 26th 2008, 04:12 AM
Oh, I forgot one very important passage:

Rev 2:5 Remember then from what heights you have fallen. Repent (change the inner man to meet God's will) and do the works you did previously [when first you knew the Lord], or else I will visit you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you change your mind {and} repent.

BroRog
Nov 26th 2008, 05:42 AM
Maybe you should read more of my posts. I have stated that a person is in a saved state at belief.

Well, that's the first predicate (a), in the syllogism.

a. a man is saved as soon as he believes.
b. it is possible for a man to fall from belief.
c. therefore a man can abdicate his salvation.


I have stated that God will keep the believer. When these guys posted verses saying no can snatch us from the fathers hand, I said verse like this are 100% true, for the believer. So I don't see where you say I give people no hope.

The Biblical term "hope" is not like the modern, English version of the term. The difference can best be seen in the statement,

"I hope the sun will not fall from the sky."

In our idiom, this statement is silly because when we use the word "hope" we tend to express a general optimism. Sometimes we even hope in a positive outcome when their is strong evidence to the contrary. Essentially, when we hope for things, we know that life can rob us of our dreams because contingency is always present. Consequently, we would never express a "hope" that the sun won't fall from the sky because the chances of that happening are so minuscule as to be almost non-existent.

By contrast, the Bible uses the term "hope" to express a very high degree of confidence especially if we are hoping in something that God has promised. If God has promised it, there remains no contingency. If there is contingency, there is no hope in the Biblical sense. If God removes the contingency from the promise, we are right to hope in it by faith. If the contingency remains, then we have no business hoping for it, in the Biblical sense.

You say no one can snatch us from the father's hand as long as we believe, which implies that it's certainly possible for us to stop believing. But if we must live with that contingency for the rest of our lives, we can not have hope; we can not have the very high degree of expectation mentioned in the Bible. All we can really have, in your view, is a general optimism about the future, but not a real, substantial expectation of the outcome.


I have never said all hope is lost. I have said that one is kept as long as one continues to believe.


No, of course you didn't say all hope is lost. I'm not saying you did. I'm saying that all your view can provide is a lifetime of ambiguity, which is certainly less than what the Apostles offer, which is a lifetime of solid hope for the future.


Semantics, my friend, there are the same thing. POTS---one perseveres to the end because God keeps him. OSAS--- one cannot lose salvation because God keeps him.


I think your summary doesn't do either view justice. The doctrine of OSAS is the daughter of American Evangelism in which revival preachers like Billy Graham pushed for the "decision." The idea behind this form of preaching was the understanding that once a person was brought forward to pray the sinners prayer, the person was saved. In this view, there is no mention of God "keeping" a person. Rather, the basis for the push to get "the decision" is Romans 10:9-10 (TNT) in which Paul says that if a man confesses with his mouth and believes in his heart, he is saved. Whatever he does after that is strictly for the gain or loss of rewards.

In my own personal view, based on the scriptures I think, a man or woman whom God is saving as undergone a postive and substantial inner transformation such that the subsequent life and maturity is the direct result of the Holy Spirit's intervention, washing, regeneration, intercession, teaching, indwelling, etc.


It's not a matter of interpretation, it's a matter of context.


Well, sometimes we supply our own context rather than using the one we are given. :)


That's not the question.

It's always been the question behind the question. In these discussionsl the unspoken question is "how much does God play and how much does the believer play in his or her salvation?" Some would say that God gets us only so far, but we must go the rest of the way. Others would say, in order for salvation to truly be by grace, it has to all rest in God's hands and nothing from me -- ultimately.


Well, as I stated above I do not hold the premise, I have stated this several times. You can show your 100% certainty if you wish, however it is not necessary. I have already stated that the one who is believing and continues to believe can be certain of eternal life and belonging to God.

You evade the central issue. It's one thing to say that the one who continues to believe can be certain of eternal life. But it's another thing to be certain of continuous belief. In your view, a man can NOT be certain of continuing in belief, whereas I can show you where to find 100% certaintly of perseverance. :)

Yukerboy
Nov 26th 2008, 06:14 AM
No, He says I give, not has given. Big difference. No one however, actually gets eternal life until the judgment.

His sheep listen to His voice.
He leads the sheep.
They cannot be led astray.
He gives them eternal life.
They will never perish.

Would you agree with these facts? If so, then every single one of His sheep will be saved. The ones who seem to be believers and then turn away were never of His sheep. His sheep will never turn away.



As I said eternal life is given at the end, Jesus said,

Revelation 2:7 ( KJV ) 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


I won't debate this. I believe that those who are His sheep have everlasting life. If you wish to believe they receive everlasting life at the judgement, I wouldn't disagree.


Again, you "CANNOT" draw back if you were never there. You "CANNOT" draw back from Christ is you were never in Christ.

The only ones that "draw back" are addressed in 1 John. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. If they had drawn back or turned away, they did not belong to us. The only sheep of Christ's continue to follow Christ.



You are about the only one I know of who thinks a Christian can't sin.


Trust me, going against the grain with most everyone on this board on that one point is probably the most difficult thing I have done internet-wise.

I agree that it is not a popular idea, but it is one that Paul and John have pointed out in conjunction to resolve the OSAS/POTS/NOSAS ideas.

John states that sin is transgression of the law.
John states that one who is born of God cannot sin and will not continue to sin. John very easily could have used the word should not, but he chose cannot, which implies inability.
Paul says that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law
Paul says where there is no law there is no transgression.
Paul states sin is not taken into account when there is no law
Paul states you (the Christians) are not under law, but under grace.
Paul states we have been released from the law
Paul states I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Paul states if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Paul then goes on to this very difficult tongue twister.....

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Paul points out here that now that we have been changed from slaves of sin to being Spiritually led, we now will to do good, but the sin we commit will continue to be done at times, though we will not to sin, because sin dwells in the flesh. However, it is no longer you (your soul) that commits the sin, but the sin residing within your flesh.

It is an exceedingly difficult concept to grasp and one I struggled with time and again. But this is why sin is not imputed to the Christian and exactly how a Christian is made to persevere until the end.

I know a lot say about this meaning we can do what we want. True, and if you are saved and have been changed into a new creature by God, what you want to do is righteous. But you will also find that sometimes, you will do that which you do not want to do, which is sin. However, it is not you (your soul) sinning, but the sin abiding within you.

Now, with all that said, this is why Paul talks about running a race and making your election sure. You may believe in Christ for a while and then not believe. It is not Christ that failed. If a believer turns to unbelief, that Christian was never one of Christ's sheep. The person would even be able to claim "haven't I prophecied in your name", but Christ's response would be "I never knew you".

Butch5
Nov 26th 2008, 06:18 AM
Well, that's the first predicate (a), in the syllogism.

a. a man is saved as soon as he believes.
b. it is possible for a man to fall from belief.
c. therefore a man can abdicate his salvation.



The Biblical term "hope" is not like the modern, English version of the term. The difference can best be seen in the statement,

"I hope the sun will not fall from the sky."

In our idiom, this statement is silly because when we use the word "hope" we tend to express a general optimism. Sometimes we even hope in a positive outcome when their is strong evidence to the contrary. Essentially, when we hope for things, we know that life can rob us of our dreams because contingency is always present. Consequently, we would never express a "hope" that the sun won't fall from the sky because the chances of that happening are so minuscule as to be almost non-existent.

By contrast, the Bible uses the term "hope" to express a very high degree of confidence especially if we are hoping in something that God has promised. If God has promised it, there remains no contingency. If there is contingency, there is no hope in the Biblical sense. If God removes the contingency from the promise, we are right to hope in it by faith. If the contingency remains, then we have no business hoping for it, in the Biblical sense.

You say no one can snatch us from the father's hand as long as we believe, which implies that it's certainly possible for us to stop believing. But if we must live with that contingency for the rest of our lives, we can not have hope; we can not have the very high degree of expectation mentioned in the Bible. All we can really have, in your view, is a general optimism about the future, but not a real, substantial expectation of the outcome.



No, of course you didn't say all hope is lost. I'm not saying you did. I'm saying that all your view can provide is a lifetime of ambiguity, which is certainly less than what the Apostles offer, which is a lifetime of solid hope for the future.



I think your summary doesn't do either view justice. The doctrine of OSAS is the daughter of American Evangelism in which revival preachers like Billy Graham pushed for the "decision." The idea behind this form of preaching was the understanding that once a person was brought forward to pray the sinners prayer, the person was saved. In this view, there is no mention of God "keeping" a person. Rather, the basis for the push to get "the decision" is Romans 10:9-10 (TNT) in which Paul says that if a man confesses with his mouth and believes in his heart, he is saved. Whatever he does after that is strictly for the gain or loss of rewards.

In my own personal view, based on the scriptures I think, a man or woman whom God is saving as undergone a postive and substantial inner transformation such that the subsequent life and maturity is the direct result of the Holy Spirit's intervention, washing, regeneration, intercession, teaching, indwelling, etc.



Well, sometimes we supply our own context rather than using the one we are given. :)



It's always been the question behind the question. In these discussionsl the unspoken question is "how much does God play and how much does the believer play in his or her salvation?" Some would say that God gets us only so far, but we must go the rest of the way. Others would say, in order for salvation to truly be by grace, it has to all rest in God's hands and nothing from me -- ultimately.



You evade the central issue. It's one thing to say that the one who continues to believe can be certain of eternal life. But it's another thing to be certain of continuous belief. In your view, a man can NOT be certain of continuing in belief, whereas I can show you where to find 100% certaintly of perseverance. :)

BroRog,

I don't like to play games, You have read enough of my posts to know where I stand. I said a person, upon belief is in a saved state, (not saved, but in a saved state). They are in a relationship with God. Now surely you know that when the Scriptures speak of believing, they use the present tense Greek. literally "is believing", not believed in the past tense or will believe in the future, but present tense is believing. If it is in the present tense does that not indicate a conditional state???

As I said I "DO NOT" hold to the premise because I do not consider a person saved when they believe. How could a person be saved upon belief when Jesus clearly say, he who endures to the end shall be saved?

Sometime we supply our own context?????? Care to show where I have done so??

I have do so for others, I have shown the context on many passages quoted here. As a matter of fact I haven't even seen anyone show that the context that I put forth was wrong. So, if I have messed up so, why hasn't anyone been kind enough to correct me and show me the errors which I posted?

People keep saying that I am in error, some please show how. Not by posting verse that say a "BELIEVE" cannot be lost.

And BroRog, please, I am interested to see your presentation of 100% surety of perseverance.

9Marksfan
Nov 26th 2008, 11:27 AM
Please show me Scripture that speaks of this mixed church.

All the kingdom parables.

Do you really think that every single church is made up 100% of saved people? Do you think that ANY church is made up 100% of believers?

9Marksfan
Nov 26th 2008, 12:07 PM
Nigel, you are interpreting Scripture based on your presuppositions.

And you're not? We ALL have presuppositions, Butch - but I believe mine come from the clearest verses in Scripture - and I use them when interpreting the less clear verses. You seem to take the less clear verses that appear to back your conditional security/eternal life later, not now theology - and try to use your flawed interpretation to negate the ultraclear verses!


Look at what you said.
Apostasy would interrupt and eternally frustrate that truth.
How would it frustrate the truth? You have already determined what hte truth is, so what ever doesn't fit into your doctrine you must modify.

Surely the truth is obvious? Those whom God predestined, called and justified were (and therefore will be, if we are not already in Glory) glorified! Those who apostasize were not and will not be glorified, will they? Because they'll be in Hell!


That's a mighty big assumption based on no Scriptural evidence from that passage. You are assuming to know what the writers thought and meant???

I believe it is the correct way to read Hebrews - James is written in a similar way, as is 2 Peter and many of Paul's letters.


Sorry, you either have faith or you don't. James is making a distinction between those who say they have faith, and yet have no works and those who have faith and works. Faith with no works is dead, if is not faith.

I agree it's not saving faith, but why then does james say "can THAT faith save him?" - in other words, a faith that is without works = an intellectual and/or emotional faith that involves no change of behaviour - a form of godliness that denies the power.


Again you cannot fall away form where you have never been.

So if I was a red-hot Communist as a young man and become a passionate capitalist in later years, was I ever a Communist? If so, why? And is there a difference between believing in Communism and believing in Christianity?


Again, you interpret Scripture based on your presupposition. But he who endures to the end, is of the same group, as those whose love waxes cold. Only believers can endure to the end, therefore the group has to be believers.

No - the group has to be the visible church - the sheep will endure the end - the goats are those whose love will wax cold - because it wasn't real...."love [agape] NEVER gives up". So love that gives up is not agape - and if I have not agape, I am nothing......


I'll agree eternal life can't be lost once you get it, however, you don't get it till the judgment.

Hmm :hmm: - what about this?

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has [not WILL have] everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but HAS passed [not WILL pass] from death unto life. Jn 5:24 NKJV


Notice Jesus words,

Revelation 2:7 ( YLT ) 7He who is having an ear—let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: To him who is overcoming—I will give to him to eat of the tree of life that is in the midst of the paradise of God.

That's the realisation of what we have tasted here and now - none of us will EAT of the tree of life until we get there - but that doesn't mean we can't TASTE of it now!


The Scriptures DO NOT speak of this mixed church that you speak of.

The kingdom parables.


Therefore you are imposing this on the text.

Sorry, I think that's what you are rather doing.


My guess is to support your doctrine of OSAS.

I DON'T believe in OSAS - I agree with you that those who profess faith in Christ and fall away/don't persevere to the end will indeed be in Hell forever. OSAS says they will just be ashamed and lose their reward. I think we both agree this is dangerous heresy - right?


Show me where the Scriptures speak of this mixed church.

Paul says to those in Corinth that some of them do not have the knowledge of God - he says in Romans (I think) that not all have faith. The kingdom parables show that there are those side by side in the churches who all hear God's word - but only some put it into practice - only they [ie true believers] are saved.


Again, show me where Scripture says a believer cannot turn away from Christ, and I will be in agreement with you.

I'm not saying that a believer cannot temporarily turn away from Christ - but God will ensure that they turn back - that is the difference between Judas and Peter - Jesus prayed for Peter and KNEW he would turn back because of that - we don't hear of Him praying for Judas - because he was never Christ's - he was the son of perdition.

9Marksfan
Nov 26th 2008, 12:14 PM
Maybe you should read more of my posts. I have stated that a person is in a saved state at belief. (not ultimately saved until the judgment).

Huh?!?! :confused How is that possible?!?! Actually, I think I know where you are coming from - do you believe in the three tenses of salvation - I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved? If so, I think we just disagree on whether the ultimate salvation is certain or not - right?


Semantics, my friend, there are the same thing. POTS---one perseveres to the end because God keeps him. OSAS--- one cannot lose salvation because God keeps him.

It's not semantics at all - POTS is actually far closer to NOSAS than you realise:-

POTS - only those who persevere to the end will be saved.

NOSAS - only those who persevere to the end will be saved.

OSAS - you don't need to persevere to the end to be saved.

Why?

POTS - because God causes them to persevere.

NOSAS - because they persevere.

OSAS - because God doesn't require them to persevere.

See what I mean?

BroRog
Nov 26th 2008, 02:48 PM
BroRog,

I don't like to play games, You have read enough of my posts to know where I stand. I said a person, upon belief is in a saved state, (not saved, but in a saved state). They are in a relationship with God. Now surely you know that when the Scriptures speak of believing, they use the present tense Greek. literally "is believing", not believed in the past tense or will believe in the future, but present tense is believing. If it is in the present tense does that not indicate a conditional state???

As I said I "DO NOT" hold to the premise because I do not consider a person saved when they believe. How could a person be saved upon belief when Jesus clearly say, he who endures to the end shall be saved?

Sometime we supply our own context?????? Care to show where I have done so??

I have do so for others, I have shown the context on many passages quoted here. As a matter of fact I haven't even seen anyone show that the context that I put forth was wrong. So, if I have messed up so, why hasn't anyone been kind enough to correct me and show me the errors which I posted?

People keep saying that I am in error, some please show how. Not by posting verse that say a "BELIEVE" cannot be lost.

And BroRog, please, I am interested to see your presentation of 100% surety of perseverance.

I'm not playing games either. :)

To suggest that a person is in a "saved state" is a cleaver way of saying their salvation remains conditional. I understood your distinction. Nonetheless, to suggest that a person is in a saved state upon belief, and this is the salient point, places your statement in premise (a).

The point is, you believe salvation is conditional because belief is conditional.

Now, in order for me to prove the perseverance of the saints, I need to get you to see that belief or trust can grow and mature to the point at which it becomes hardened against attack or loss. Not all belief is of the same quality.

If I were to show you a passage in which Jesus teaches this concept, would you like to see it?

And if you found that not all belief was the same, would you amend your view to include the possibility that the conditional aspect of salvation can be removed if a person attains to a quality of belief that will never fail?

Butch5
Nov 27th 2008, 04:47 AM
I'm not playing games either. :)

To suggest that a person is in a "saved state" is a cleaver way of saying their salvation remains conditional. I understood your distinction. Nonetheless, to suggest that a person is in a saved state upon belief, and this is the salient point, places your statement in premise (a).

The point is, you believe salvation is conditional because belief is conditional.

Now, in order for me to prove the perseverance of the saints, I need to get you to see that belief or trust can grow and mature to the point at which it becomes hardened against attack or loss. Not all belief is of the same quality.

If I were to show you a passage in which Jesus teaches this concept, would you like to see it?

And if you found that not all belief was the same, would you amend your view to include the possibility that the conditional aspect of salvation can be removed if a person attains to a quality of belief that will never fail?

well, have at it.

Butch5
Nov 27th 2008, 04:50 AM
All the kingdom parables.

Do you really think that every single church is made up 100% of saved people? Do you think that ANY church is made up 100% of believers?

They don't speak of fake believers.

9Marksfan
Nov 27th 2008, 09:16 AM
They don't speak of fake believers.

What - the kingdom parables? So what do you think they speak of?

And would you please answer my questions.

BroRog
Nov 27th 2008, 08:58 PM
well, have at it.

Jesus speaks about a quality of faith which depends on the condition of a person's heart in the parable of the sower.

You can read the parable here Luke 8:4-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%208:4-13;&version=49;)

The strategy for understanding a parable is to first understand the story on its own terms.

In this story, a farmer is planting a crop using a broadcasting technique, by which he holds a handful of seed in his hand, swings his arms in a circular motion and allows a small amount of seed to fall out of his hand. Prior to spreading the seed, the farmer prepares the ground for the seed with a plow, in which the plow breaks up the hard ground so as to allow the seed to penetrate to an optimum level below the soil.

Because the farmer must restrict his crop to his own plot of land, his seed tends to fall on the roads, and other hard packed ground near the boundaries of his property, which he has not plowed. If his seed falls on solid rock, or a hard-packed road surface, the seed will lay out in the open where birds can find it. If his seed falls on areas of his field where the plow did not dig deep enough, the seed will fall below ground, but the root system will be too close to the surface and not able to find as much water.

In the final analysis, only the seed that has fallen in the plowed soil at the proper depth will survive the birds and the summer sun to produce a crop for the farmer.

Simple enough. We are fortunate that Jesus has explained his own parable so that we might understand what he means by it. We know, before reading his explanation, that he intends to draw an analogy between a familiar agricultural process and outcome with something else.

Jesus is about to send 70 of his disciples out to preach through out the land. Before he does, he teaches them a lesson about preaching to prepare them for what they are about to experience. In his parable, Jesus draws an analogy between farming and preaching.

Just as a farmer will broadcast his seed broadly, not knowing whether any particular grain will fall on the hard-packed road or on his freshly plowed field, the disciples are going to preach the gospel broadly to every man and woman, not knowing which of them are prepared to hear the message.

And just as a particular soil type determines whether the farmer will get a crop, a particular heart disposition will determine which person will continue to believe the gospel.

Just as hardened ground will not allow the seed to penetrate; a hardened heart will not even give the word a second thought. Just as a seed that falls on shallow ground will not be able to survive the hot summer sun, a double-minded man will not stay with the word when persecution comes. And just as weeds can choke out a plant so that it can not compete with the weeds for water and nutrients, the worries and distractions of the world can choke out the plant so that it also dies.

And finally, just as a soil properly prepared is ready to accept a seed and produce a crop, only a good and honest heart is properly prepared to accept the Gospel message and persevere in the face of both persecution and the worries and distractions of the world.

The strong implication for the disciples who are given the task to preach the gospel is to realize the fact that not everyone will accept the message, and even those who accept the message with great enthusiasm may not continue to believe it. Only those with a heart properly and adequately prepared to hear the message will receive it and persevere in it.

Conclusion: only those with a certain heart constitution, i.e. a good and honest heart, will receive the gospel and believe it to the end.

Corollary: Jesus' parable does not leave any room for the event that a person with a good and honest heart does NOT persevere. A good and honest heart, is a necessary and sufficient condition for perseverance. Both are either true or false at the same time. It can not be that a person without a good and honest heart will persevere, and it can not be that a person with a good and honest heart will not persevere. Jesus analogy indicates that when you find the one, you find the other too.

The question is, how do I know whether I am a person with that kind of heart? How do I know for certain whether I will persevere?

I will present three passages in my next post, which give an answer to that question.

Butch5
Nov 28th 2008, 04:54 AM
Jesus speaks about a quality of faith which depends on the condition of a person's heart in the parable of the sower.

You can read the parable here Luke 8:4-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%208:4-13;&version=49;)

The strategy for understanding a parable is to first understand the story on its own terms.

In this story, a farmer is planting a crop using a broadcasting technique, by which he holds a handful of seed in his hand, swings his arms in a circular motion and allows a small amount of seed to fall out of his hand. Prior to spreading the seed, the farmer prepares the ground for the seed with a plow, in which the plow breaks up the hard ground so as to allow the seed to penetrate to an optimum level below the soil.

Because the farmer must restrict his crop to his own plot of land, his seed tends to fall on the roads, and other hard packed ground near the boundaries of his property, which he has not plowed. If his seed falls on solid rock, or a hard-packed road surface, the seed will lay out in the open where birds can find it. If his seed falls on areas of his field where the plow did not dig deep enough, the seed will fall below ground, but the root system will be too close to the surface and not able to find as much water.

In the final analysis, only the seed that has fallen in the plowed soil at the proper depth will survive the birds and the summer sun to produce a crop for the farmer.

Simple enough. We are fortunate that Jesus has explained his own parable so that we might understand what he means by it. We know, before reading his explanation, that he intends to draw an analogy between a familiar agricultural process and outcome with something else.

Jesus is about to send 70 of his disciples out to preach through out the land. Before he does, he teaches them a lesson about preaching to prepare them for what they are about to experience. In his parable, Jesus draws an analogy between farming and preaching.

Just as a farmer will broadcast his seed broadly, not knowing whether any particular grain will fall on the hard-packed road or on his freshly plowed field, the disciples are going to preach the gospel broadly to every man and woman, not knowing which of them are prepared to hear the message.

And just as a particular soil type determines whether the farmer will get a crop, a particular heart disposition will determine which person will continue to believe the gospel.

Just as hardened ground will not allow the seed to penetrate; a hardened heart will not even give the word a second thought. Just as a seed that falls on shallow ground will not be able to survive the hot summer sun, a double-minded man will not stay with the word when persecution comes. And just as weeds can choke out a plant so that it can not compete with the weeds for water and nutrients, the worries and distractions of the world can choke out the plant so that it also dies.

And finally, just as a soil properly prepared is ready to accept a seed and produce a crop, only a good and honest heart is properly prepared to accept the Gospel message and persevere in the face of both persecution and the worries and distractions of the world.

The strong implication for the disciples who are given the task to preach the gospel is to realize the fact that not everyone will accept the message, and even those who accept the message with great enthusiasm may not continue to believe it. Only those with a heart properly and adequately prepared to hear the message will receive it and persevere in it.

Conclusion: only those with a certain heart constitution, i.e. a good and honest heart, will receive the gospel and believe it to the end.

Corollary: Jesus' parable does not leave any room for the event that a person with a good and honest heart does NOT persevere. A good and honest heart, is a necessary and sufficient condition for perseverance. Both are either true or false at the same time. It can not be that a person without a good and honest heart will persevere, and it can not be that a person with a good and honest heart will not persevere. Jesus analogy indicates that when you find the one, you find the other too.

The question is, how do I know whether I am a person with that kind of heart? How do I know for certain whether I will persevere?

I will present three passages in my next post, which give an answer to that question.

What about unseen events that change the disposition of this heart? What about the person who loves and follows God, but when the death of a child comes along, they cannot bear it, get angry with God, and turn?

Butch5
Nov 28th 2008, 05:28 AM
Marksfan---And you're not? We ALL have presuppositions, Butch - but I believe mine come from the clearest verses in Scripture - and I use them when interpreting the less clear verses. You seem to take the less clear verses that appear to back your conditional security/eternal life later, not now theology - and try to use your flawed interpretation to negate the ultraclear verses!

I look at what the Scripture says and that is what it means.

What "less clear" verses have I used? You use verses that speak of what God will do for the believer. There is "NO" doubt about what God will do for the believer. Take "ALL" of hte verses that speak of salvation and reconcile "ALL" of them not just the ones that support your position.

Let me ask you a question, according to you a true believer will persevere to the end correct?

Why?


Marksfan---Surely the truth is obvious? Those whom God predestined, called and justified were (and therefore will be, if we are not already in Glory) glorified! Those who apostasize were not and will not be glorified, will they? Because they'll be in Hell!


I believe it is the correct way to read Hebrews - James is written in a similar way, as is 2 Peter and many of Paul's letters.


but there is nothing there to warrant your doing so.



Marksfan---I agree it's not saving faith, but why then does james say "can THAT faith save him?" - in other words, a faith that is without works = an intellectual and/or emotional faith that involves no change of behaviour - a form of godliness that denies the power.

Agreed



Marksfan---So if I was a red-hot Communist as a young man and become a passionate capitalist in later years, was I ever a Communist? If so, why? And is there a difference between believing in Communism and believing in Christianity?

You're making my argument for me, that is what I have been saying. If you were a red-hot communist and became a passionate capitalist, you fell away from communism. If you were never a true communist (believer) you could not fall away. However if you are a true communist (believer) and later became a passionate capitalist, you have fallen away.


Marksfan---No - the group has to be the visible church - the sheep will endure the end - the goats are those whose love will wax cold - because it wasn't real...."love [agape] NEVER gives up". So love that gives up is not agape - and if I have not agape, I am nothing......

What warrants this? What in the context of the passage states that this is the visible church?


Marksfan---Hmm - what about this?
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has [not WILL have] everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but HAS passed [not WILL pass] from death unto life. Jn 5:24 NKJV


It's the way people speak, It's assumed they will continue. It is a promise, the one who "is believing" has the promise. Consider this, you have Scriptures such as this that you have posted. There are Scriptures that say we do not yet have eternal life. So which is? How can Scripture say we have and we don't have it? It is the way we use language. Paul makes the statement that he is in hope of eternal life, Why would Paul say this, if he already had eternal life? If Paul says He didn't have eternal life yet, we have to draw some conclusions, I don't think he was lost, so the only other conclusion that I see, is that he is waiting for it. So, Paul says he is in hope of eternal life. Paul also said in Ephesians, that the holy Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance, given to us until the redemption of the purchased possession, That's us. The holy Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance, we don't get the rest of it until we are redeemed. Jesus said whoever overcomes He will give to eat of the tree of life. We have some rather clear Scriptures here that state that we do not yet possess eternal life, so how do we reconcile the verse that you posed?

John 5:24 ( YLT ) 24‘Verily, verily, I say to you—He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
The one who "is believing", present tense, so this must be a continual present tense believing. It says he has passed from death to life, however, as we have seen, we do not yet possess this life. It is a promise, Jesus has promised that the one who "is believing" has (.the promise of ) eternal life. Jesus says this elsewhere also,

1 John 5:12-13 ( KJV ) 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Jesus says that you may know that you have eternal life. It is a promise. If we read it this way we can reconcile both sets of Scriptures. However if we say we already possess it, how do we reconcile both sets of verses? If we already have it, then why would Paul be in hope of it? Why would Jesus give to eat of the tree of life?

However, even if we read the verse your way, and say that the one who is believing has eternal life, we still have no problem. Jesus made it clear the the only one who has eternal life is the one who "IS" believing, not will believe or did believe. The one who "IS" currently believing.



Marksfan---That's the realisation of what we have tasted here and now - none of us will EAT of the tree of life until we get there - but that doesn't mean we can't TASTE of it now!

What do you mean taste of it?


Marksfan---The kingdom parables.


They speak of fake believers?





Marksfan---I DON'T believe in OSAS - I agree with you that those who profess faith in Christ and fall away/don't persevere to the end will indeed be in Hell forever. OSAS says they will just be ashamed and lose their reward. I think we both agree this is dangerous heresy - right?

But, were the ones who didn't persevere ever (in your words) a true believer?



Marksfan---Paul says to those in Corinth that some of them do not have the knowledge of God - he says in Romans (I think) that not all have faith. The kingdom parables show that there are those side by side in the churches who all hear God's word - but only some put it into practice - only they [ie true believers] are saved.


I'm not saying that a believer cannot temporarily turn away from Christ - but God will ensure that they turn back - that is the difference between Judas and Peter - Jesus prayed for Peter and KNEW he would turn back because of that - we don't hear of Him praying for Judas - because he was never Christ's - he was the son of perdition.


How do you know He was never Christ's?? He was one of those chosen to come to Christ. Jesus said no one can come to me unless the father draws him, Judas came to Christ, so He must have been drawn by the Father. So, apart from you doctrine, what in this passage or elsewhere in the Scriptures, tells us that Judas was never Christ's

Also where in Scripture do we find support for the idea that God will ensure that a believer who turns away will turn back?

Thaddaeus
Nov 28th 2008, 05:50 AM
LOOK, folks the Bible says
1jo 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.1jo 4:2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:1jo 4:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.1jo 4:4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.


If I confess this then I am of God, If you tell me different then you are the one going against God and I don't care if you are Justin Martyr or Billy Graham, It is not our place to judge anyone into hell or condemn anyone to a life in hell, I am sure glad that God didn't leave my salvation up to anyone But Himself for there is 41 verses Inhis Word that reassures me That His Mercy endureth forever, if anyone could had worked their way into heaven then the cross and the works of Christ becomes vain. People please do not take from what Christ did for the World at calvary. Don't preached that we can either save ourself by what we do or even keep ourselves saved, for truly His mercy endures forever and has allowed us to become overcomers Because he is greater than anyone that is in the world and that includes you

1co 1:17 (http://bibleforums.org/1co+1:17)For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the CROSS of Christ should be made of none effect.

Butch5
Nov 28th 2008, 05:57 AM
All the kingdom parables.

Do you really think that every single church is made up 100% of saved people? Do you think that ANY church is made up 100% of believers?

No, I do not think so.

Butch5
Nov 28th 2008, 06:06 AM
Huh?!?! :confused How is that possible?!?! Actually, I think I know where you are coming from - do you believe in the three tenses of salvation - I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved? If so, I think we just disagree on whether the ultimate salvation is certain or not - right?



It's not semantics at all - POTS is actually far closer to NOSAS than you realise:-

POTS - only those who persevere to the end will be saved.

NOSAS - only those who persevere to the end will be saved.

OSAS - you don't need to persevere to the end to be saved.

Why?

POTS - because God causes them to persevere.

NOSAS - because they persevere.

OSAS - because God doesn't require them to persevere.

See what I mean?

I have stated several times about the three tenses of salvation. The tenses show that salvation is a process not a one time deal. That is why Jesus says, he who endures to the end shall be saved. The end of what? Obviously life. So, from the time a person believes until the time they die, a lot can happen. If a person continues to believe throughout this time He will be saved, if a person does not endure and turns away from Christ, he will not be saved.

Butch5
Nov 28th 2008, 06:07 AM
What - the kingdom parables? So what do you think they speak of?

And would you please answer my questions.

Which ones in particular?

9Marksfan
Nov 28th 2008, 09:45 AM
Which ones in particular?

These ones (although I accept there were a lot in the following posts too! But these are from the "kingdom parables" one.

Do you really think that every single church is made up 100% of saved people? Do you think that ANY church is made up 100% of believers?

BroRog
Nov 28th 2008, 04:42 PM
What about unseen events that change the disposition of this heart? What about the person who loves and follows God, but when the death of a child comes along, they cannot bear it, get angry with God, and turn?

I already anticipated your objection at the end of my post. Jesus' parable does not leave room for the situations you posit. If the gospel meets a good and honest heart, that gospel will result in a man or woman of faith who will persevere until the end.

BroRog
Nov 28th 2008, 06:11 PM
In a previous post, I reminded us of the parable of the sower in which Jesus draws an analogy between four different kinds of soils and four different kinds of dispositions of the heart to suggest that only one out of the four will result in a belief that perseveres to the end. It is important to note, that three conditions resulted in an initial state of belief, but only one resulted in a state of permanence.

We could ask the reader at this point to consider what it would be worth to know for sure whether he or she might persevere to the end. Would you pay money to find out? Would it be worth it to you to know? It's one thing to say that God is saving those with a good an honest heart. But it's an entirely different thing to know whether or not this is true for you personally.

Well, please forgive my crass introduction to Peter's answer. In his first epistle, he says that this kind of personal information is worth more than gold.

Read his wonderful statement of hope here . . . (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%201%20:6-9;&version=49;)

Notice the strong link between a testing of our faith and our being given honor at the second coming of Jesus Christ. We go through various trials that test our faith today, which has it's final outcome at the revelation of Jesus Christ tomorrow. By analogy, Peter says, our faith is tested by fire and like things that survive the fire, our faith might survive these tests. And if they do survive these tests, we can have confidence that we will stand with Jesus Christ in glory and honor when he returns.

Moreover, Peter is not the only Apostle to mention that the testing of our faith is a joyous occasion since the survival of our faith is positive proof that we will stand with Jesus at the end.

James says the exact same thing using different words here . . .
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james%201;&version=49;)

I would say that this entire chapter is speaking about what it means to be a true believer, one that will survive to the end. James is not like Paul in his writings, who lays everything out in a linear step-by-step fashion. James seems to pick a subject to look at it from all the different angles. But for our purposes, let's focus on a few verses from that chapter.

2Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

. . .

11For the sun rises with a scorching wind and withers the grass; and its flower falls off and the beauty of its appearance is destroyed; so too the rich man in the midst of his pursuits will fade away.

12Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

At first James seems to be saying something insane. To take joy in suffering is a sign of insanity. But once we understand what James is saying, we understand that he is not finding joy in the suffering itself, but he finds reason to be joyful in the outcome of the suffering. We don't like it when our faith is tested, but when our faith endures we have reason to rejoice. If our faith endures, then we know our faith is perfect and lacks nothing.

I included his statement about the rich man because the rich man seems to stand in contradistinction with the man of faith. Unlike a rich man's wealth which will fade away and be totally lost, a man of enduring faith will receive the crown of life, which refers to a life that will never pass away. A tested faith will endure forever, unlike a man's riches, which will eventually fade away.

Those who argue against OSAS are right to point out that a believer may fall away from the faith. That is on the one hand, but on the other hand both James and Peter speak about a certain quality of faith that will endure trials of faith, and the imperishable quality of this faith causes those who have it to rejoice that they will find themselves in glory and honor at the return of Jesus Christ.

Notice also, that a man or woman will not need to wait until the end of life to know they have an imperishable faith. James says that God brings on trials of faith today, so that the believer will know today whether he or she has the imperishable faith that will result in joy today.

The third apostle to raise the same issue, by which he intends to offer his readers hope for the future, is Paul.

Paul's same message is found in the book of Romans, chapter five . . . (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%205:1-11;&version=49;)

In this passage, Paul speaks about our exultation in contrast with those who exult in the law. Rather than finding our exultation in our ability to keep the law, we find our exultation in what God is doing for us. We exult in God, certainly, but we also exult in our tribulations because these trials of faith give us precious information about ourselves.

And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

In these two verses Paul draws a straight and uninterrupted line between our tribulations and our hope, which in this instance indicates a confident expectation of an outcome guaranteed to take place.

His reasoning goes like this. Faith is first tested. Once it passes the test it is certified as being able to sustain other tests. This certification becomes the basis for our hope. The analogy I have in mind is making a sword.

To have a good sword, we need our metal to have certain qualities suitable to its use. The sword should remain sharp for long periods, shouldn't remain bent after being flexed, should be hard enough to withstand a blow from another sword or a human body, but not brittle so as to shatter when struck. These qualities depend on the steel having the correct ratio of carbon and other impurities to iron, and the correct heat treatment, annealing, etc.

The point is this. A shinny, polished sword just pulled out of the sheath may look good, but until it is actually put to the test, we don't know if the sword will hold an edge, remain bent, or shatter after the first blow. However, once we put the sword to the test and prove the quality of its craftsmanship, we can continue to use the sword with complete confidence. After one or two tests, we know the sword will continue to remain a good sword.

Likewise, not all those of faith are the same, but those who have endured tests of faith, can continue to have confidence in the indestructible quality of that faith. A testing of faith leads to a perseverance through trial, which is an "attestedness" that becomes the basis of our hope. A tested faith is a certified faith. And a man with a certified faith is a man who has reason to expect a good outcome of his faith at the end.

Now Paul offers us an additional aspect to our basis for hope. He says that our hope will not disappoint us because "the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit." In this we understand that God and the Holy Spirit are taking an active role in our perseverance and will guarantee that our hope will not disappoint.

Therefore, let the reader rejoice when his or her faith is put to the test, because the trials of our faith are more precious than Gold. The trials of our faith cause us to rejoice because the outcome of these things is to stand with honor and glory at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. And our hope will not disappoint us because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

Butch5
Nov 30th 2008, 02:16 AM
I already anticipated your objection at the end of my post. Jesus' parable does not leave room for the situations you posit. If the gospel meets a good and honest heart, that gospel will result in a man or woman of faith who will persevere until the end.

And thus we have POTS OR OSAS.

You cannot know what you will do in the future.

Butch5
Nov 30th 2008, 02:20 AM
These ones (although I accept there were a lot in the following posts too! But these are from the "kingdom parables" one.

Do you really think that every single church is made up 100% of saved people? Do you think that ANY church is made up 100% of believers?

I already answered this question, the answer is no.

I meant which parables in particular?

BroRog
Nov 30th 2008, 05:22 PM
And thus we have POTS OR OSAS.

You cannot know what you will do in the future.

You are incorrect.

Again, you will not allow the Apostle to give you hope. Will you?

Not only does Paul give his readers a reason to hope, he guarantees that a faith that passes the test, leads to a hope that will not disappoint. Paul says that we CAN know what we will do in the future because the certification of our faith proves it to be a faith that will last.

Don't you agree with James, Peter, and Paul?

Your belief system has no basis for Biblical hope does it?

9Marksfan
Nov 30th 2008, 10:16 PM
I already answered this question, the answer is no.

I meant which parables in particular?

The wise/foolish builders/virgins, the sheep and the goats, the good/bad builders/servants/fish and the wheat and the tares. All teach the same basic question - there is a visible church made up of true Christians and those who appear to be Christians but aren't - the difference is that true Christians live their faith out in practical obedience to the word.

Butch5
Dec 1st 2008, 05:42 AM
The wise/foolish builders/virgins, the sheep and the goats, the good/bad builders/servants/fish and the wheat and the tares. All teach the same basic question - there is a visible church made up of true Christians and those who appear to be Christians but aren't - the difference is that true Christians live their faith out in practical obedience to the word.

But the Bible doesn't present unbelievers as fake believers, it presents them as unbelievers.

Butch5
Dec 1st 2008, 05:45 AM
You are incorrect.

Again, you will not allow the Apostle to give you hope. Will you?

Not only does Paul give his readers a reason to hope, he guarantees that a faith that passes the test, leads to a hope that will not disappoint. Paul says that we CAN know what we will do in the future because the certification of our faith proves it to be a faith that will last.

Don't you agree with James, Peter, and Paul?

Your belief system has no basis for Biblical hope does it?

You can say this if you want, however, no one can be absolutely certain of what they will do in the future. Therefore, no one can guarantee that they will not turn away. It's not that I have no hope, I have all the hope in the world, as long as I continue to abide "in Christ".

Sirus
Dec 1st 2008, 06:14 AM
The wise/foolish builders/virgins, the sheep and the goats, the good/bad builders/servants/fish and the wheat and the tares. All teach the same basic question - there is a visible church made up of true Christians and those who appear to be Christians but aren't - the difference is that true Christians live their faith out in practical obedience to the word.there is no harvesting in the kingdom of God parable. The harvest is come. Good trees bear good fruit. To be IN the kingdom of God you must be born again. There are no unsaved people that are born again.

The kingdom of God is God's kingdom, it's spiritual, can not be threatened, is eternal, is not normally visible (does not come with observation), except when God decides to show it with angels, mount of transfiguration etc...

The kingdom of heaven is earthy, tangible, can and has been taken by force, visible, God's government on earth through man.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Mar 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mar 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
Mar 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

9Marksfan
Dec 1st 2008, 11:30 AM
there is no harvesting in the kingdom of God parable.

Which one is a kingdom of God parable?

9Marksfan
Dec 1st 2008, 11:33 AM
But the Bible doesn't present unbelievers as fake believers, it presents them as unbelievers.

Au contraire - we have several examples - Judas, Simon the Sorcerer, Demas, Anaias and Sapphira, those in 1 Jn 2:19, etc etc.

And in those parables, the foolish virgins were looking for the bridegroom - the foolish builders were building just like the wise builders - the sheep and the goats in Palestine look very alike - only the shepherd can tell them apart!

Veretax
Dec 1st 2008, 12:45 PM
Here's my question, and I don't care whether you are NOSAS or OSAS when you answer. Who perseveres? Is it the believer or the one who is within the believer? Is it God who preserves us in the faith? Or is it us who does it?


I'm afraid I believe more in the power of God's spirit within us then I believe in my own ability to persevere. Paul essentially wrote that I could do nothing without God who gives me Strength. So why do some of us assume that we have to persevere as if we ourselves do the maintaining, when it is in fact God's spirit within us that maintains us all along?

BroRog
Dec 1st 2008, 02:53 PM
You can say this if you want, however, no one can be absolutely certain of what they will do in the future. Therefore, no one can guarantee that they will not turn away. It's not that I have no hope, I have all the hope in the world, as long as I continue to abide "in Christ".

I showed you four different passages. In the first passage, I showed you that not all belief is the same. Jesus quantifies belief in terms of its ability to survive until the end, i.e. persevere based on a particular heart constitution.

The other three passages are words from three different Apostles, each saying the same thing in different words to the effect that we can rejoice in our trials because the trials lead to perseverance and perseverance leads to hope.

These three passages stand in stark contrast to your insistence that no one can be absolutely certain. As I tried to explain earlier, Biblical hope is absolute certainty. The hope you speak about isn't really hope in the Biblical sense; it is merely a vague sense of optimism. It isn't really based on faith, but on positive thinking and positive affirmation -- a luxury of living in our modern world.

longtooth
Dec 1st 2008, 03:57 PM
Why can't one appostisize. do they still not have free will?

Yes we do. Why can I not? Because it is not in me to do so.

I have a free will but I cannot turn my back on my Mother in her time of illness because it is not in me to do so. I am committed to her.

I have a free will but I cannot stay seated when the colores of my country are posted. It is not in me to do so. I am committed to honor my Flag w/ all my life.

I have a free will but I cannot take a mistress because it is not in me to do so. I am committed to my wife for life.

I know I am saved to the uttermost & therefore I will persever. I will persevere only because I am saved to the uttermost.

I am a new Creature in Christ Jesus that will persevere because it is not in this new & different man to turn my back on the one who changed me from what I was. My will is fully free now, no longer chained w/ a sin debt, & my free will chooses to remain faithful. I want no other Master. It is not in me to lick up the vomit of the old life.

I am saved by grace, kept by grace, & will persevere by grace because it is not in me now to deny Him any more than I could my Mother, Wife, or Country.

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 1st 2008, 04:18 PM
The Bible specifically declares that those 'elected' by God Himself will 'know' their election..

they won't be tossed and turned in their faith.. nor their beliefs or conviction.. but they 'know' their election.. they will not be caught up in the 'idea' that you can really never know... They 'know' and understand and believe that God chose them.. they did not choose Him.. and they understand and believe that 'no one'.. and I mean 'no one' can separate them from the Father.. no man can pluck them out His hand... period..

Who elects? God elects His own.. and this not man made or man initiated

As a young Christian I used to get caught up in this idea that Monday I could lose my faith or salvation.. and then Wednesday get it back again.. only to lose it again Saturday by something I did wrong or some standard I didn't meet as a 'christian'... you were taught that you could really never 'know'... whether you were really
saved... until I found the Truth in Gods Word and it was in this verse..

Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.


This verse set me free and I begin to understand that Its all about Him.. He started it and He will finish it... When a person is 'unsure' or taught or led to 'believe' that your never sure about your 'election' , salvation, or faith.. then you 'never' have the chance to grow and learn as a Christian... you go in a vicious cycle believing that you can lose your salvation at the snap of finger...


What I've learned is that this type teaching and vicious circle of condemnation is non other than a 'tactic' of the enemy to keep one from growing and learning in the Faith.

When you know the Truth.. it will set you free... and if the Son Sets you free then you are 'free indeed'... When you walk in this freedom then you are able to grow and learn from the Master Himself. Not being tossed and turned by this doctrine or that doctrine.. winds of teaching that keep oneself in a cycle of condemnation... which is not from God...

Why do you think Jesus went to that Bloody Tree? From here is where the 'power of God' is at... Humility, Meekness, Obedience, Un conditional love... etc.. God's love demonstrated... He didn't go to the Cross so that you would 'be unsure' of your faith, election, salvation. He went there so that you would 'be SURE'... 'KNOW'... this knowing that its about Him.. He is the Author and Finisherof Your Faith and Walk with Him..

You will not get into Heaven any other way.. but thru Him and its thru His atoning Work on that bloody Tree... belief in that..

Salvation 'belongs' to God 'ALONE', and nobody else..

Do you 'know' Him today?

9Marksfan
Dec 1st 2008, 05:22 PM
Here's my question, and I don't care whether you are NOSAS or OSAS when you answer. Who perseveres? Is it the believer or the one who is within the believer? Is it God who preserves us in the faith? Or is it us who does it?


I'm afraid I believe more in the power of God's spirit within us then I believe in my own ability to persevere. Paul essentially wrote that I could do nothing without God who gives me Strength. So why do some of us assume that we have to persevere as if we ourselves do the maintaining, when it is in fact God's spirit within us that maintains us all along?

Amen and amen! EXCELLENT post! Well said!

Veretax
Dec 1st 2008, 05:39 PM
Amen and amen! EXCELLENT post! Well said!


Thank You. :D

Sirus
Dec 2nd 2008, 03:14 AM
Which one is a kingdom of God parable?On what basis do you think the kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are the same? It can only be 'just because'. It can't be because Matthew used the term 'heaven' so not to offend Jews because he used both terms and not only that, he did so in back to back verses. Not to mention no where does scripture show anyone concerned about saying the name of God so not to offend another. The argument simply is not true historically.

Can you argue they are the same because of all their similarities? Of course not, because you cannot explain their differences using scripture and sound doctrine.

Are you seriously going to tell me the unsaved are in the body of Christ? Of course not, that's why there's no separating the harvest in Mar 4:29. I believe that was Butch5's point and one that no one can refute.

Tell me, if they are the same, why is it hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven but impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God? Because you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God.

What does it take to enter the kingdom of heaven? If the two terms describe the same one kingdom now you'd have to be born again, right? Is that what it says? No! Mat 5:20 says your righteousness must exceed the scribes and pharisees to enter the kingdom of heaven. Mat 25 says you must have works. He who doesn't is cast into outer darkness. How does that jive with by grace through faith alone? It doesn't.

The Luke 19 kingdom of God parallel jives with by grace through faith alone! The servant without works was not cast into outer darkness!!!

The kingdom of heaven is for the poor in spirit (Mat 5:3) the kingdom of God is for the poor (Luk 6:20)

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

What time was fullfilled when John who preached kingdom of heaven was put in prison? Also 'believe the gospel' is not said for the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

People in the church use these against the church

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be........
......
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
........
...
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

-I pointed them out because they are often used to support salvation by faith+works. Salvation is by grace through faith alone, “for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” People try to reconcile this by saying faith produces works, which is true, but that’s not at all what the passages in Matthew state. They say nothing about faith. Only that entrance into a kingdom is granted based on works. More on that in a minute.

-We are forgiven all sin. There is not one verse or passage that suggest a believer in fellowship with God has any sin that is not forgiven or that forgiveness needs to be asked for. Sorry, but that’s misconstruing 1Joh 1:9 and would be a complete contradiction of the rest of Scripture, both OT and NT.

-We must be born again to see the kingdom of God (Joh 3:3). That’s THE requirement that is accomplished by faith in Christ’s complete and finished work. Not one verse says works has anything to do with salvation. They all say it is ‘not of works, so that no one may boast’ (Eph 2:9) and ‘to him that doesn’t work but believes on Him that justifies the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness.“ (Rom 4:5)

As I stated above these say nothing about faith or belief, just works. That entrance into ‘a kingdom’ is granted based on works. Why is this and how can this be? Well, who was Jesus talking to? In Matthew 5 and 7 He was speaking to Israel only!!! Salvation was of the Jews and He did not come FIRST to the Gentiles but to the Jews as their King. To the Jew first, then the Gentile. Matthew chapters 5 and 7 are before chapter 10 where Jesus said
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 25 is at His return (in that day). Now unless one is post-trib the ‘church’ is not the ones being judged. Faith in what is not seen is NOT required here because the King of Kings IS here, and the whole world knows it (after tribulation)!

For some reason it is assumed by many that the separation of the sheep and goats is the judgment seat of Christ for believers, but no scripture says any such thing. In fact scripture is not totally clear when that occurs and whether it happens corporately or individually. Matthew 25 is a judgment of what is left after the tribulation. Plain and simple. If the gathering of the nations is for all time then it would be the Great White Throne Judgment but since we know that is not until the end we have to conclude this is the King setting up His earthly kingdom with the remains of the tribulation.

Butch5
Dec 2nd 2008, 05:18 AM
Au contraire - we have several examples - Judas, Simon the Sorcerer, Demas, Anaias and Sapphira, those in 1 Jn 2:19, etc etc.

And in those parables, the foolish virgins were looking for the bridegroom - the foolish builders were building just like the wise builders - the sheep and the goats in Palestine look very alike - only the shepherd can tell them apart!

You are interjecting you belief. You assume that none of these were saved. Can you show me from Scripture that none of these were saved?

The foolish virgins weren't fake believers, they were believers that were not ready when Christ returned. Same with the builders. The sheep and the goats, are believers and unbelievers.

The Scriptures do not speak of fake believers.

9Marksfan
Dec 2nd 2008, 11:59 AM
On what basis do you think the kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are the same?

Hold on, hold on - before you SERIOUSLY derail the thread - I did NOT say that - in fact, I'm actually very interested to hear your views on the distinction between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven, because I too believe they may well not be one and the same. I'm afraid I was being a bit lazy when I asked, because I thought they were all "kingdom of heaven" parables - but maybe there was one that was a "kingdom of God" one - is there? I think you may have misunderstood my question......

9Marksfan
Dec 2nd 2008, 12:29 PM
You are interjecting your belief. You assume that none of these were saved. Can you show me from Scripture that none of these were saved?

The goats were always goats - never sheep. The foolish builders always built on the wrong foundation. The foolish virgins had no oil in their lamps (if you are going to argue "extra" oil, I'll concede that point - there is the work of the Spirit in conviction and illumination in millions who have never RECEIVED Him at conversion). The tares were never wheat. The bad fish and servants were never good.


The foolish virgins weren't fake believers, they were believers that were not ready when Christ returned.

Because they did not POSSESS the oil of the Holy Spirit - Rom 8:9.


Same with the builders.

No - wrong foundation.


The sheep and the goats, are believers and unbelievers.

Agreed - but of course the goats thought they were going to be OK - but they were blind to their true state.


The Scriptures do not speak of fake believers.

What about these passages then?

But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. 1 Cor 5:11 NKJV

in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 2 Cor 11:26 NKJV

Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 2 Cor 13:5 NKJV

And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage) Gal 2:4 NKJV

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. 1 Jn 2:19 NKJV

In fact the whole of 1 John deals with true believers and false believers.

Veretax
Dec 2nd 2008, 01:00 PM
You are interjecting you belief. You assume that none of these were saved. Can you show me from Scripture that none of these were saved?

The foolish virgins weren't fake believers, they were believers that were not ready when Christ returned. Same with the builders. The sheep and the goats, are believers and unbelievers.

The Scriptures do not speak of fake believers.

Except where paul had mentioned False Brethren.

BroRog
Dec 2nd 2008, 02:31 PM
Hold on, hold on - before you SERIOUSLY derail the thread - I did NOT say that - in fact, I'm actually very interested to hear your views on the distinction between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven, because I too believe they may well not be one and the same. I'm afraid I was being a bit lazy when I asked, because I thought they were all "kingdom of heaven" parables - but maybe there was one that was a "kingdom of God" one - is there? I think you may have misunderstood my question......


Heaven is a metonymy for God.

9Marksfan
Dec 2nd 2008, 04:37 PM
Heaven is a metonymy for God.

That had been my thought for many years, but the "mixed nature" of those in the kingdom parables has made me question this - as Sirus rightly says, only born again people are in the kingdom of God. I don't have time just now to get into profound arguments on this thread, so if you'd like to "take up the cudgels", be my guest!

kenrank
Dec 2nd 2008, 04:45 PM
That had been my thought for many years, but the "mixed nature" of those in the kingdom parables has made me question this - as Sirus rightly says, only born again people are in the kingdom of God. I don't have time just now to get into profound arguments on this thread, so if you'd like to "take up the cudgels", be my guest!

Wow...9marksfan was the 666th page visit to this thread. Could he be????

Ken

grit
Dec 2nd 2008, 05:14 PM
Wow...9marksfan was the 666th page visit to this thread. Could he be????

Ken
:) I added up the English numerical equivalents for both your moniker (kenrank = 74) and 9marksfan (= 92), and then added them both together and divided by 2 (= 83), and then multiplied that by the number of Beatitudes (8 x 83), and you know what I got? 664. boy, that was really close. ;)

RogerW
Dec 2nd 2008, 05:45 PM
That had been my thought for many years, but the "mixed nature" of those in the kingdom parables has made me question this - as Sirus rightly says, only born again people are in the kingdom of God. I don't have time just now to get into profound arguments on this thread, so if you'd like to "take up the cudgels", be my guest!

The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are synonymous.

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven:
Is There a Difference?
By Ward Fenley HARMONY OF THE KINGDOMS

There are several passages that show that the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are synonymous. Some futurists believe that there are as many as three kingdoms of God and possibly even more. However, in examining the Scriptures we will see that there is one kingdom that is identified in several ways: two of which are the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven.

First let us present the harmony of the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven. The first words out of John the Baptist's mouth were: Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.So we immediately see that the kingdom of heaven was said to be at hand. Jesus basically reiterated this identical statement when His ministry began:
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.Here is the harmony of the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven in the gospels:
Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." Mark 1:14-15 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, {15} And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
We certainly cannot view Mark as having written an entire separate account. If this hermeneutic were implemented, we would then have to completely change our designation of the Gospels as synoptic. The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are the same. If they are different then we would have to decide which one was nearer-the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven. Then, once we figured out which one was nearer, we would have to identify when the first came and when the second came. Let us suppose, as many futurists do, that the kingdom of God took place at Pentecost. Was this imminent? If so, how were the apostles to know this? Did they know this because Jesus said in Mark that the kingdom of God was at hand? If the futurist acknowledges this statement of imminence, then how would they interpret the statement of imminence in Matthew's account where Jesus says that the kingdom of heaven is at hand? Should we suddenly revert back to a mystically dechronologizing hermeneutic? If not, then the only alternatives would be to say that either the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God were equally imminent and took place at Pentecost. Or, we would have to say that one of the kingdoms took place at Pentecost and the other at the Parousia in AD 70 when Jesus Christ destroyed the Temple. The last alternative would be that the statement of imminence was referring to the complete establishment of the New Covenant or the kingdom of God, which is the kingdom of heaven.

The kingdom harmony continues: Matthew 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Luke 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
The result of being poor in spirit is inheriting the kingdom of God or heaven.


This same kingdom of heaven that was said to be at hand is the resting place of all those who are the seed of Abraham (believers in Jesus Christ): Matthew 8:11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. Luke 13:28-29 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. {29} And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
The same message Jesus preached at the beginning of His ministry was also the same message with which He commissioned the disciples, i.e., the kingdom of God or heaven is near. Matthew and Luke have different accounts of this commission. Luke shows Christ associating healing with the kingdom of God. Matthew associates imminence with the kingdom of heaven. Both are addressing the same kingdom.
Matthew 10:7 As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' Luke 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
John the Baptist, though the greatest of the prophets, was said to have an inferior position compared to the status of the kingdom of heaven. Luke describes this as the kingdom of God, whereas Matthew describes it as the kingdom of heaven:
Matthew 11:11-12 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. {12} From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
Just what mysteries were to be revealed? Did Jesus reveal to separate sets of mysteries? Or were the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God one and the same?
Matthew 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
In these next passages we see that the inhabitants of the kingdom of God must become as little children:
Matthew 18:3-4 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. {4} Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.")
Mark 10:14-15 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. {15} Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. Luke 18:16-17 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. {17} Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
Once again, the "two" kingdoms are synonymous.

Luke and Mark speak of the difficulty a rich man has in entering the kingdom of God. Matthew speaks of the rich man's difficulty entering the kingdom of heaven. But what is particularly interesting is the fact that Jesus uses both phrases in the account in Matthew: Matthew 19:23-24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. {24} And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mark 10:23-25 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! {24} And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! {25} It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Luke 18:24-25 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! {25} For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Matthew and Mark compare the mustard seed to the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God respectively:
Matthew 13:31 He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Mark 4:30-31 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? {31} It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
In these next passages we find something interesting:
Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
If the kingdom of God was to take place at Pentecost as an entirely separate kingdom from the kingdom of heaven, and this kingdom was a spiritual, inward kingdom, then we can understand Jesus speaking of the violent trying to take it by force. However, if the kingdom of heaven is a far removed kingdom of physical pleasure, and the physical earth has been destroyed, how are the violent taking it by force and pressing into it? This of course is presuming that violent has a negative connotation. If, on the other hand, "violence" speaks of a holy zeal in Jesus Christ (as puritan Thomas Watson says), the futurist still has a problem in that they cannot explain from where these people are coming who are pressing into the kingdom. After all, if all the believers are in heaven, and all unbelievers are in the lake of fire after the cosmic dissolution of the universe, then there simply could not be anymore people trying to enter. All the beneficiaries of the promise would have it and all is well. However, Biblically, we see that the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are the same, regardless of the interpretation defended concerning the violent pressing into the kingdom.

From these passages, it is explicitly clear that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are identical. They are not to separate kingdoms nor are they even two different phases of one kingdom. They are one and the same, just sometimes identified differently. An example of this would be the identification of Jesus Christ as God and yet as the Son of God. We do not negate His deity simply because of the difference in name.

to be continued

RogerW
Dec 2nd 2008, 05:47 PM
THE KINGDOM OF THE SON IS THE KINGDOM OF THE FATHER

In the accounts mentioned in Matthew we saw that Christ would come in His kingdom with His holy angels. This same angelic accompanying is addressed in Matthew 13: Matthew 13:41-44 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; {42} And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. {43} Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. {44} Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. Notice verse 44 continues the parables of Christ in his demonstrating what the kingdom of heaven is like. Jesus is merely continuing the context of the details concerning His coming. But what is fascinating is how Matthew nor Jesus makes any distinction between the kingdom of the Son and the kingdom of the Father. Verse 41 speaks of the kingdom of the Son of man. Verse 43 speaks of the kingdom of the Father. They are identical kingdoms.

In the well-known Lord's prayer, a kingdom for which the apostles were to pray for its coming is designated as the Father's kingdom: Matthew 6:9-10 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. {10} Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
As we have seen, this kingdom is the kingdom of the Son. Even the Son declared His unity with the Father:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one. John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
We first established that the kingdom of God is identical with the kingdom of heaven. Second, we established that the kingdom of God is synonymous with the kingdom of the Son. Therefore we must conclude that the kingdom of the Son is synonymous with the kingdom of heaven, which is synonymous with the kingdom of God. Third, we established that the kingdom of the Son is the kingdom of the Father. They all are referring to the same kingdom. It must follow then, that any passages that speak of the kingdom of the Son must be the same as the kingdom of God, the kingdom of the Father and the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, as we examine the New Testament passages that testify that true believers are in one of these kingdoms, we can conclude that whichever kingdom is mentioned it is synonymous with one eternal and heavenly kingdom.

Besides the fact that word kingdom is used well over a hundred times in the Gospels alone, here are some passages that reveal the immense significance of the message of this kingdom: Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
Acts 1:3 To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. Acts 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Since we have already decisively concluded that there are not many different kingdoms but, rather, different names for one eternal kingdom, it is imperative that we acknowledge the Scriptures that teach the presence of true believers in this eternal kingdom.

to be continued

RogerW
Dec 2nd 2008, 05:49 PM
First, in Romans Paul teaches that some of the characteristics of the kingdom are exactly contrary to the fleshly ordinances of national Israel: Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. From the passages we have already studied, we should have implied that the kingdom of which Jesus and the apostles spoke was none other than the eternal kingdom predicted in the law and the prophets. Paul brings to the attention of the Romans the fact that three characteristics in particular are present in the kingdom of God. Each of these characteristics was prophesied in the law and the prophets concerning the eternal kingdom that was to come:

Righteousness: Psalms 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
Psalms 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Psalms 24:5-6 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. {6} This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
This last reference should be interesting to us in that Jesus Christ said blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. Christ also said, "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness…" Faith in Jesus Christ is seeking Christ, which is seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness. Upon faith in Jesus Christ, the believer in Jesus Christ receives the everlasting righteousness that comes from His sacrifice on the cross. This is why the Psalmist said this righteousness comes from God. Isaiah conveys this same truth:
Isaiah 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD. Here are several passages that speak of righteousness being made known or revealed from heaven:
Psalms 85:9-13 Surely his salvation is nigh them that fear him; that glory may dwell in our land. {10} Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. {11} Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven. {12} Yea, the LORD shall give that which is good; and our land shall yield her increase. {13} Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of his steps.
Psalms 98:2 The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly showed in the sight of the heathen.
Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness. Psalms 50:6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.
Romans tells us that this revealed righteousness is the Gospel of Jesus Christ:
Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. {17} For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Here are a few other passages that speak of righteousness applied to the people of God, or God as their righteousness:
Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Isaiah 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Isaiah 46:13 I bring near my righteousness: it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Isaiah 51:5-8 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust. {6} Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished. {7} Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings. {8} For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.
Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Paul said that the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy. Here are several prophetic passages that speak of a time when these elements in general would be fulfilled:
Psalms 89:15-16 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance. {16} In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
Psalms 132:9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy. Isaiah 32:16-17 Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field. {17} And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Paul understood that in Jesus Christ, righteousness, peace, and joy are fulfilled:
2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Ephesians 2:13-17 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. {14} For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; {15} Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; {16} And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: {17} And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
1 John 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
As we have noted previously, the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the Son are one and the same. Paul explicitly proclaims that believers have been translated into the kingdom of the Son:
Colossians 1:12-14 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: {13} Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: {14} In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: The real difficulty comes with trying to reconcile what futurists describe as the "already but not yet" with the Scripture. There are two primary reasons they have done this: First, they approach the study of the kingdom with the presupposition that there is at least a spiritual kingdom and a physical kingdom. All of the millennial schemes do this, whether pre, post, or amillennial. Second, they do not see the clear Scriptural teaching concerning what we must identify as the transformation period. It is a recognition of this transformation period that will solve the "already but not yet" problem. First, it is necessary to see several passages that speak of the New Covenant being brought to consummation through process:
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Here the Old Covenant (O.C.) is said to have been in the process of waxing old and decaying. It tells us that it was ready to vanish away.
2 Corinthians 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. The phrase, "done away" is translated "is passing away" in the New King James Version clearly implying that the fading glory of the O.C. was approaching its end as the New Covenant (N.C.) was progressing.
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Once again, the present tense is extremely important to our understanding of the gradual progression of the N.C. and the gradual digression of the O.C. From here we turn to chapter 12 of Hebrews to observe the use of the present tense to describe the unfolding of the New Covenant kingdom:
Hebrews 12:18-28 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, {19} And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: {20} (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: {21} And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) {22} But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, {23} To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, {24} And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. {25} See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: {26} Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. {27} And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. {28} Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: The context is definitively speaking of the contrast between the two covenants. Verses 18-21 deal with the mountain and kingdom of the O.C., a covenant that only produced the wrath of God. Verses 22-28 deal with the mountain and kingdom of the N.C., a covenant that produced righteousness and forgiveness. The O.C. is metaphorically described here as the heavens and earth. These were in the process of "being shaken" (vs.27). The verb is in the present tense, showing the gradual removal of the curse upon the people of God. However, this gradual removal was not without a replacement far better:

Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. Hebrews 8:6-7 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. {7} For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


to be continued

RogerW
Dec 2nd 2008, 05:50 PM
The better replacement is very evident in Hebrews 12:
Hebrews 12:27-28 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. {28} Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: Notice the phrase, "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom." The verb receiving is likewise in the present tense, and shows how the N.C. kingdom was being brought to its fulness by progression. This progression or transformation involved the reforming work of the Holy Spirit to bring the church into the image of Christ-an image into which Paul says they were already being changed:
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. The kingdom of which Paul speaks in Hebrews 12:28 is none other than the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven we have already studied.

What we must conclude, therefore, is the fact that three different analyses of the kingdom must be taken into consideration: First, the first-century saints were said to already be in the kingdom: Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
And yet in other passages the kingdom seems to be a future event for the first-century church:
Hebrews 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? 2 Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
However, there is no contradiction or "already but not yet" when the passages dealing with the transformation are observed:
Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 2 Corinthians 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
This last verse uses the present tense for the verb exceed. The passage actually reads, "For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more is the ministration of righteousness exceeding in glory." This is because the New Covenant was growing into fulness as it was exceeding the glory of the Old Covenant.


The ministration of righteousness, the N.C. kingdom, was exceeding in glory while the ministration of death, the O.C. kingdom, was diminishing in glory. In fact, though the literal veil was torn in two at the crucifixion of Christ, the actual veil of spiritual death was still upon the elect unsaved Jews, but was in the process of being done away as the remnant according to the election of grace were believing in Christ. Not only this, but for those who were believers, the veil was in the process of being removed as they had not yet entered into the holiest of holies. 2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is being done away in Christ. It is also important to realize that the first-century Christians honestly believed they were serving a King:
Acts 17:7 Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus. 1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jesus Christ the King was ruling over the kingdom that was being transformed into the fulness of the New Covenant. This one kingdom was in the process of being received by the first-century believers.


From what we have studied, it is evident that the kingdom of which it was said that it was at hand began to unfold at Pentecost and was brought to its fulness at the Parousia. This occurred at the destruction of the Jewish Temple. This was the outward sign that the inward kingdom was in its full form and Christ the King was, at last, in His people who had previously had the Spirit as the deposit of the guarantee of their inheritance. This inheritance was that prepared for those who would be made kings and priests: Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Peter called them a royal priesthood:
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: This light of the kingdom was prophesied in the O.T.:
Isaiah 60:19-21 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. {20} Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. {21} Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. The Psalmist predicted the presence of the Bride with Christ her King:
Psalms 45:10-15 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; {11} So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. {12} And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall entreat thy favour. {13} The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. {14} She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. {15} With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace. The Psalmist relates the city of the great King to Mount Zion:
Psalms 48:1-2 A Song and Psalm for the sons of Korah. Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness. {2} Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King. As does the writer of Hebrews:
Hebrews 12:22-23 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, {23} To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, The Psalmist predicts the relationship of the creation of the spiritual Israel of God as the children of Zion with their King:
Psalms 149:2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King. This creation is none other than that which is created in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Notice that the passage in Psalms speaks of Israel rejoicing in the King that made him. Paul says if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature.

Isaiah predicted the eternity of the government of this King of Israel: Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. {7} Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. There was one kingdom predicted in the prophets. There was one kingdom of which our Lord spoke. And there was one kingdom that began at Pentecost and was brought to its fulness at the Parousia. This is the heavenly kingdom of God, the Kingdom of the dear Son, the kingdom of the Father-a kingdom in which all the elect of God are ruling with their King and rejoicing in the God of their salvation.

RogerW
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:35 PM
Are you seriously going to tell me the unsaved are in the body of Christ? Of course not, that's why there's no separating the harvest in Mar 4:29. I believe that was Butch5's point and one that no one can refute.

Where do we find the body of Christ manifested in time? The universal church of course! Therefore we either believe the Scripture warning us repeatedly that there are false professors within the external body of Christ or we must believe that every baptized member, professing faith is born again. Scripture very clearly tells us that many who offend and work iniquity are in His kingdom, but they will be gathered out in the fullness of time. Then and only then will it be made manifest unto all those who truly belong in His everlasting Kingdom, and those who do not.

Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Had you considered that Mk 4:29 is speaking of Christ? The seed sown may mean the gospel which he was preaching. In Judea its beginnings were small. Yet he would leave it; commit it to his disciples; and return to his Father. The gospel in the meantime, left by Him, would take root, spring up, and produce an abundant harvest. In due time He would return, send forth the angels, and gather in the harvest, and save His people for ever.

To enter into His eternal kingdom one must be born again. And who can exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees? Can anyone, other than Christ alone? For this reason we must not lean upon our own righteousness, but only upon the righteousness of Christ alone.

What kingdom suffers violence and is taken by force? Certainly not the eternal/everlasting Kingdom? Or what kingdom do men press into?



-We must be born again to see the kingdom of God (Joh 3:3). That’s THE requirement that is accomplished by faith in Christ’s complete and finished work. Not one verse says works has anything to do with salvation. They all say it is ‘not of works, so that no one may boast’ (Eph 2:9) and ‘to him that doesn’t work but believes on Him that justifies the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness.“ (Rom 4:5)

As I stated above these say nothing about faith or belief, just works. That entrance into ‘a kingdom’ is granted based on works. Why is this and how can this be?

Exactly! Salvation is by grace through faith alone! Why does Scripture appear to say we must do works to enter His kingdom? Because believing is work, but not our own "lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:9). This is the work of God, not of any man.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The work of salvation is all of the Lord and none of our own. Even the faith we received when we "heard" the gospel of salvation is a gift of God's grace.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Salvation is work that Christ came to do in order to save His people.

Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.



For some reason it is assumed by many that the separation of the sheep and goats is the judgment seat of Christ for believers, but no scripture says any such thing. In fact scripture is not totally clear when that occurs and whether it happens corporately or individually. Matthew 25 is a judgment of what is left after the tribulation. Plain and simple. If the gathering of the nations is for all time then it would be the Great White Throne Judgment but since we know that is not until the end we have to conclude this is the King setting up His earthly kingdom with the remains of the tribulation.

There is only one Day of Judgment in the fullness of time, and only those whose names are found in the Book of Life will inherit His eternal Kingdom, and life everlasting.

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Dec 3rd 2008, 01:01 AM
Marksfan---The goats were always goats - never sheep. The foolish builders always built on the wrong foundation. The foolish virgins had no oil in their lamps (if you are going to argue "extra" oil, I'll concede that point - there is the work of the Spirit in conviction and illumination in millions who have never RECEIVED Him at conversion). The tares were never wheat. The bad fish and servants were never good.

Again, Scripture please. Show from Scripture that the goats were never sheep, or that the tares were never wheat, etc.


Marksfan---Because they did not POSSESS the oil of the Holy Spirit - Rom 8:9.

Not to rude, but how does Romans 8:9 bear on this passage?




Marksfan---Agreed - but of course the goats thought they were going to be OK - but they were blind to their true state.

Where is this in Scripture?



What about these passages then?


Marksfan---But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. 1 Cor 5:11 NKJV

This is speaking of a Christian who is living in sin.


Marksfan--- in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 2 Cor 11:26 NKJV


You need to look at the context, just because it says false brethren does not mean they were Christians.



Marksfan---Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 2 Cor 13:5 NKJV

Yes, be disqualified. Only a believer could be disqualified. An unbeliever would not be qualified.


Marksfan---And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage) Gal 2:4 NKJV

These are not believers, read the context. They pretended to be believers for the purpose of spying out Paul's liberty.


Marksfan---They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. 1 Jn 2:19 NKJV

In fact the whole of 1 John deals with true believers and false believers.


The book of 1 John is dealing with false teachers not fake believers.

Sirus
Dec 3rd 2008, 02:17 AM
Hold on, hold on - before you SERIOUSLY derail the thread - I did NOT say that - in fact, I'm actually very interested to hear your views on the distinction between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven, because I too believe they may well not be one and the same. I'm afraid I was being a bit lazy when I asked, because I thought they were all "kingdom of heaven" parables - but maybe there was one that was a "kingdom of God" one - is there? I think you may have misunderstood my question......Oh, I thought is was obvious because I posted two parables. One starts like
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened.......

and the other like

Mar 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God,.....
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1887071&postcount=71

Or am I still not understanding?

Diolectic
Dec 3rd 2008, 02:53 AM
Why can't one appostisize. do they still not have free will?Yes we do. Why can I not? Because it is not in me to do so.

I have a free will but I cannot turn my back on my Mother in her time of illness because it is not in me to do so. I am committed to her.

I have a free will but I cannot stay seated when the colores of my country are posted. It is not in me to do so. I am committed to honor my Flag w/ all my life.

I have a free will but I cannot take a mistress because it is not in me to do so. I am committed to my wife for life.

I know I am saved to the uttermost & therefore I will persever. I will persevere only because I am saved to the uttermost.

I am a new Creature in Christ Jesus that will persevere because it is not in this new & different man to turn my back on the one who changed me from what I was. My will is fully free now, no longer chained w/ a sin debt, & my free will chooses to remain faithful. I want no other Master. It is not in me to lick up the vomit of the old life.

I am saved by grace, kept by grace, & will persevere by grace because it is not in me now to deny Him any more than I could my Mother, Wife, or Country.
I'll agree, however, anyone may be decieved.
The deception can draw you away, so far away that you come off the correct path of truth.
This is undenyable.

Sirus
Dec 3rd 2008, 03:50 AM
RogerW,
I'm sorry, but it is very hard for me to seriously consider anything from a Preterist. All he does is point out similarities. Big deal. When there is a difference, he says there is none. As he did here

"The kingdom harmony continues: Matthew 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Luke 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
The result of being poor in spirit is inheriting the kingdom of God or heaven."

As I would expect from a Preterist, he said
"Luke and Mark speak of the difficulty a rich man has in entering the kingdom of God. Matthew speaks of the rich man's difficulty entering the kingdom of heaven. But what is particularly interesting is the fact that Jesus uses both phrases in the account in Matthew:"
Excuse me? It just says there is difficulty? Not quite. Hard in one and impossible in the other! Hello!

Now I will read your post........

Sirus
Dec 3rd 2008, 06:28 AM
Where do we find the body of Christ manifested in time? The universal church of course! Therefore we either believe the Scripture warning us repeatedly that there are false professors within the external body of Christ or we must believe that every baptized member, professing faith is born again. Scripture very clearly tells us that many who offend and work iniquity are in His kingdom, but they will be gathered out in the fullness of time. Then and only then will it be made manifest unto all those who truly belong in His everlasting Kingdom, and those who do not.

Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.You used a kingdom of heaven passage. You will not find a cleaning like this in a kingdom of God passage.



Had you considered that Mk 4:29 is speaking of Christ? The seed sown may mean the gospel which he was preaching. In Judea its beginnings were small. Yet he would leave it; commit it to his disciples; and return to his Father. The gospel in the meantime, left by Him, would take root, spring up, and produce an abundant harvest. In due time He would return, send forth the angels, and gather in the harvest, and save His people for ever.You were doing great til
"send forth the angels, and gather in the harvest"
The kingdom of God parable doesn't say send the angels and gather harvest. It says the it bear fruit of itself (good) and HE put forth the sickle.



To enter into His eternal kingdom one must be born again. And who can exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees? Can anyone, other than Christ alone? For this reason we must not lean upon our own righteousness, but only upon the righteousness of Christ aloneHe didn't have a high opinion of them. The good samaritan sure showed them up! ;) Again, you are applying the wrong kingdom.



What kingdom suffers violence and is taken by force? Certainly not the eternal/everlasting Kingdom? Or what kingdom do men press into?This physical kingdom of earth allows violence and was and is taken by force.



Exactly! Salvation is by grace through faith alone! Why does Scripture appear to say we must do works to enter His kingdom? Because believing is work, but not our own "lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:9). This is the work of God, not of any man.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The work of salvation is all of the Lord and none of our own. Even the faith we received when we "heard" the gospel of salvation is a gift of God's grace.No, The work of God in John 6 is Christ and Him crucified.

In fact it is the same passage you will see Christ and Him crucified is how the Father draws us. ;) That is not a passage to support faith as a gift.

So no, I am not a calvinist nor reformed, in any sense. Faith is not a gift. No where in scripture is faith given for salvation. No where.



There is only one Day of Judgment in the fullness of time, and only those whose names are found in the Book of Life will inherit His eternal Kingdom, and life everlasting.Death and hell are judged there at the end of the earthly reign. Long after the dead in Christ have already been resurrected and ruling and reigning with him.

Yukerboy
Dec 3rd 2008, 06:57 AM
I'll agree, however, anyone may be decieved.
The deception can draw you away, so far away that you come off the correct path of truth.
This is undenyable.

Let me be the first to deny it then.

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

RogerW
Dec 3rd 2008, 03:58 PM
RogerW,
I'm sorry, but it is very hard for me to seriously consider anything from a Preterist. All he does is point out similarities. Big deal. When there is a difference, he says there is none. As he did here

"The kingdom harmony continues: Matthew 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Luke 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
The result of being poor in spirit is inheriting the kingdom of God or heaven."

As I would expect from a Preterist, he said
"Luke and Mark speak of the difficulty a rich man has in entering the kingdom of God. Matthew speaks of the rich man's difficulty entering the kingdom of heaven. But what is particularly interesting is the fact that Jesus uses both phrases in the account in Matthew:"
Excuse me? It just says there is difficulty? Not quite. Hard in one and impossible in the other! Hello!

Now I will read your post........

Greetings Sirus,

Perhaps you should consider the many corresponding passages presented rather than simply saying "it is very hard for me to seriously consider anything from a Preterist". This is a tactic often employed by those who would rather label another Christian than to carefully consider what sayeth the Scriptures.

Neither Luke, Mark nor Matthew tell us that it is impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom.

Mt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mt 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Mt 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:

Mr 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mr 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mr 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Lu 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Lu 18:26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
Lu 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

You see in all three gospels we read the same thing, it is difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom, but with God all things are possible. Therefore nowhere do we read that it is impossible for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God/heaven.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Dec 3rd 2008, 04:54 PM
You used a kingdom of heaven passage. You will not find a cleaning like this in a kingdom of God passage.

Sirus, you are making it a kingdom of heaven passage to satisfy your opinion. The passage simply says, "out of his kingdom" without reference to either heaven or God. Why? Because His (Son of man) Kingdom is both of God and heaven.

Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;



You were doing great til
"send forth the angels, and gather in the harvest"
The kingdom of God parable doesn't say send the angels and gather harvest. It says the it bear fruit of itself (good) and HE put forth the sickle.

The parable tells us that His Kingdom is real. It also shows us that not all who are in His kingdom in this world (church) belong there. When the harvest comes in the fullness of time, Christ will send His angels to gather out of His Kingdom the tares, and will burn them up, but the righteous will shine brightly in the Kingdom of their Father

Mr 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mr 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Mr 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
Mr 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mt 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

No man can abide in Christ and bear fruit of himself. Not only must we abide in Him, but He must also abide in us, for without Him we can do nothing. There would be no bearing of fruit unless He is enabling us.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.



Again, you are applying the wrong kingdom.

There are only two kingdoms. The kingdom of Satan, and the Kingdom of the Father; that is the Kingdom of God/heaven. You want to divide the Father's Kingdom into the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God, and the kingdom of Christ, as though they differ and are not all the Kingdom of the Father and Christ, the Kingdom prepared for believers from the foundation of the world is ONE KINGDOM, not two or three. And the other kingdom is of Satan, and his kingdom is only darkness and pain. The Kingdom of God/heaven/Father/Christ wars against the kingdom of satan, but his kingdom will end.

Mt 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Re 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Mt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mt 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.



So no, I am not a calvinist nor reformed, in any sense. Faith is not a gift. No where in scripture is faith given for salvation. No where.

You don't have to be reformed or Calvinist to understand that faith is a gift of God's grace. This FACT is found in passages like the one in Eph 2 I gave you as well as:

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Many Blessings,
RW

Diolectic
Dec 3rd 2008, 05:55 PM
Let me be the first to deny it then.

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.The fact that it says, "if that were possible" does not discount the posibility.
What is the use of bringing it up if it truly was not posible?

"I will start my car in sub-zero weather if that is possible"
It is posible, but only doudfull.

"After sleeping all day, I will fall asleep at night, if that is possible"
It is posible, but only doudfull.

Get the picture?

Veretax
Dec 3rd 2008, 07:10 PM
I believe the point of that passage is to demonstrate HOW STRONG the deception will be, by saying even the elect may be deceived, if that is even possible.

Yukerboy
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:30 PM
The fact that it says, "if that were possible" does not discount the posibility.
What is the use of bringing it up if it truly was not posible?

"I will start my car in sub-zero weather if that is possible"
It is posible, but only doudfull.

"After sleeping all day, I will fall asleep at night, if that is possible"
It is posible, but only doudfull.

Get the picture?

Take it as you will, but to me, and in accordance with the rest of Scripture, it is impossible for false christs and prophets to deceive the elect.

Therefore, Christ did not mean that it was possible, but doubtful. No, Christ meant as he said, the signs and miracles would deceive even the elect...if it was possible to deceive the elect, but it is not.

Yuke

Diolectic
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:42 PM
Take it as you will, but to me, and in accordance with the rest of Scripture, it is impossible for false christs and prophets to deceive the elect.Adam & Eve were surly the elect, they were surly deceived.

To think that you are imune to deception proves that you are already decieved.


Therefore, Christ did not mean that it was possible, but doubtful. No, Christ meant as he said, the signs and miracles would deceive even the elect...if it was possible to deceive the elect, but it is not.
If it ain't posible, then why the warning?

You'd better beware of flying piggs.

Watch out for fatal smooches from your wife, their leathal.

Keep an eye out for pebbles of sand that will crush you.

If it ain't posible, the warning is moot, impractical & insignificant.

What are we suposed to do with a warning of such that can not be posible?

jesuslover1968
Dec 3rd 2008, 09:43 PM
Adam & Eve were surly the elect, they were surly deceived.

To think that you are imune to deception proves that you are already decieved.


If it ain't posible, then why the warning?

You'd better beware of flying piggs.

Watch out for fatal smooches from your wife, their leathal.

Keep an eye out for pebbles of sand that will crush you.

If it ain't posible, the warning is moot, impractical & insignificant.

What are we suposed to do with a warning of such that can not be posible?


Why do you think Adam and Eve were the elect? Is there scripture to that effect?
Do you think God is all powerful? I do. If it weren't for God, you couldn't even come to Christ. The same miracle that draws you to Himself, keeps you there.( phil. 1:5-6 ) When Adam and Eve were created, they were created perfect. They had the choice to remain in fellowship with God. ( Genesis 2:17 )They chose not to. Every person born after Adam and Eve has the sin nature.( Psalm 51:5 ) We CANNOT, of our own accord, remain in fellowship with God because we are not IN fellowship with God. ( Romans 9 for starters...) We are born in sin. We are fatally flawed, so to speak.( Romans 3:23 ) In order for us to HAVE fellowship with God, HE has to make a change in us. ( call us ) we are changed from the old...( fallen wicked natures...) to the new...( changed natures that stay IN Him...) ( Romans 6:6, 2 Cor. 5:17,Eph. 4:22-25,Col. 3:1-12 ) if God is with you, who can be against you?( Romans 8:31 ) even Paul makes it clear that if you are in God, no one can take that away from you...( Romans 8:38-39 )

Veretax
Dec 3rd 2008, 10:10 PM
Adam & Eve were surly the elect, they were surly deceived.

To think that you are imune to deception proves that you are already decieved.


If it ain't posible, then why the warning?

You'd better beware of flying piggs.

Watch out for fatal smooches from your wife, their leathal.

Keep an eye out for pebbles of sand that will crush you.

If it ain't posible, the warning is moot, impractical & insignificant.

What are we suposed to do with a warning of such that can not be posible?


I'm going to disagree with you here. First what kind of deception is Christ talking about? This is not general deceit, or someone lying generally, it seems as if the deception is that Christ had returned when he had not. This is wholy different than what happened in the Garden and your analogy doesn't hold up under scrutiny in this case.

John146
Dec 3rd 2008, 10:24 PM
The fact that it says, "if that were possible" does not discount the posibility.
What is the use of bringing it up if it truly was not posible?

"I will start my car in sub-zero weather if that is possible"
It is posible, but only doudfull.

"After sleeping all day, I will fall asleep at night, if that is possible"
It is posible, but only doudfull.

Get the picture?I agree. Why would Jesus be warning people who were among the elect about being deceived if it was not possible for them to be deceived? Why bother?

This is what He said to the disciples:

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Now, why would He tell the disciples, who were among the elect, to "take heed that no man deceive you" if it wasn't possible for them to be deceived? Was that something Jesus would do, to warn people about something that couldn't possibly happen? No.

This would mean He was saying "Watch out that you are not deceived...even though it's not possible that you will be". Does that make any sense? No. The verse is being misunderstood.

Here is the verse from Young's Literal Translation:

Matt 24:24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.

This is not saying that it is impossible to lead the chosen astray. It's translated in the KJV as "if it were possible" but the words "it were" were added by the translators. Let's look at another verse where that phrase is used. Again, from the YLT:

Acts 27:39 And when the day came, they were not discerning the land, but a certain creek were perceiving having a beach, into which they took counsel, if possible, to thrust forward the ship,

Like Matthew 24:24, the KJV adds the words "it were" so in that version it says "if it were possible". Now, is this verse saying that it was impossible for them to "thrust forward the ship"? No. It is actually saying that it was possible, but not certain.

We see this same concept in Acts 20:16.

Acts 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

Is this saying that it was not possible for Paul to be at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost? No. But if we read it the way some read Matthew 24:24 then we would say it was not possible for him to be at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost.

So, Matthew 24:24 should be understood the same way these other verses are. The false Christs and false prophets would try to deceive even the elect, if possible. It is possible, but it's not a certainty. We even talk like this today. We say things like "I'm going to climb that huge mountain, if possible.". Well, it is possible because others have done it, but it wouldn't be easy. It wouldn't be easy for false prophets to deceive the elect, especially if it's a mature believer who understands scripture well and has a close relationship with Christ. But, the reality is that it's actually saying that it is possible but not certain rather than saying that it's impossible.

Diolectic
Dec 3rd 2008, 10:40 PM
Why do you think Adam and Eve were the elect? Is there scripture to that effect?
First of all, it's common sense.
Second: why would God create the very first man & women as not elect?


Do you think God is all powerful? I do. If it weren't for God, you couldn't even come to Christ.I could have, but I wouldn't have.


The same miracle that draws you to Himself, keeps you there.( phil. 1:5-6The only "miracles" which draws people to Him are:
The creation, all that involves the atonement, that God's Word is still undefiled by man, and that His witnesses came to us and did not give up on us.
Integrity is another thing along with faith which keeps us.


When Adam and Eve were created, they were created perfect.Just as all other men are.
They would have died weather or not they sinned if they never ate from the tree of life.


They had the choice to remain in fellowship with God. ( Genesis 2:17 )They chose not to. Every person born after Adam and Eve has the sin nature.
( Psalm 51:5)
One can only come to that conclusion by misinterpreting the Scriptures.
Just as you misinterpreting this one -------> ( Psalm 51:5 )


We CANNOT, of our own accord, remain in fellowship with God because we are not IN fellowship with God. ( Romans 9 for starters...) We are born in sin. We are fatally flawed, so to speak.( Romans 3:23 ) In order for us to HAVE fellowship with God, HE has to make a change in usThe only thing He must to in order for us to HAVE fellowship with Him is forgive us, reconcile us by His blood.
Since He has already done that, it remains up to every one to acknowledge this for them to fellowship with God.
By putting their very own faith in & on what Christ has said & done along with repentance is actually acknowledging the reconciliation between God & man


( call us ) we are changed from the old...( fallen wicked natures...) to the new...( changed natures that stay IN Him...) ( Romans 6:6, 2 Cor. 5:17,Eph. 4:22-25,Col. 3:1-12)
If it was about a "sin nature", then how is sin wrong?
Nothing is wrong about living according to ones nature.

Is it wrong for a pig to wallow in the mud after being washed!
No, because it is it's nature, but it is for us because it against our nature.

Is it wrong for a dog to return to his vomit?
No, because it is it's nature, but it is for us because it against our nature.
If we had a so called "sin nature" it would not be wrong to sin.

Quit using your nature as an excuse for your free will to sin


if God is with you, who can be against you?( Romans 8:31 ) even Paul makes it clear that if you are in God, no one can take that away from you...( Romans 8:38-3So, according to that, Adam was never "in" God, because he was hell bound until he trusted God to put him back in a right relationship with Him.
So it is with all mankind.

Sirus
Dec 4th 2008, 04:30 AM
Greetings Sirus,

Perhaps you should consider the many corresponding passages presented rather than simply saying "it is very hard for me to seriously consider anything from a Preterist". This is a tactic often employed by those who would rather label another Christian than to carefully consider what sayeth the Scriptures.

Neither Luke, Mark nor Matthew tell us that it is impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom.

Mt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mt 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Mt 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:

Mr 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mr 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mr 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Lu 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Lu 18:26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
Lu 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

You see in all three gospels we read the same thing, it is difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom, but with God all things are possible. Therefore nowhere do we read that it is impossible for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God/heaven.

Many Blessings,
RWYou did the same as Ward Fenley and ignored the text!
It says impossible for men in the kingdom of God, not difficult.
Jesus used both terms back to back and the disciples knew the difference so they rightly asked, ‘who can be saved’?

I have studied these corresponding passages for 2 years my friend and I read what Ward Fenley the Preterist wrote.

So, now you say it is possible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God by his own means. How so? How will he enter what does not come with observation and is within us (Luk 17:20-21)? How does he, by his own means, become a part of the body of Christ to partake of the heavenly nature, sit in heavenly places, and walk in works predestined? Please tell me!




Sirus, you are making it a kingdom of heaven passage to satisfy your opinion. The passage simply says, "out of his kingdom" without reference to either heaven or God. Why? Because His (Son of man) Kingdom is both of God and heaven.

Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; The disciple asked for an explanation of the previously given parables that were ALL kingdom of heaven parables. Please try and stay in context!



The parable tells us that His Kingdom is real. It also shows us that not all who are in His kingdom in this world (church) belong there. When the harvest comes in the fullness of time, Christ will send His angels to gather out of His Kingdom the tares, and will burn them up, but the righteous will shine brightly in the Kingdom of their Father

Mr 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mr 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Mr 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
Mr 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mt 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. No, the kingdom of heaven is real. The kingdom of God for now is not observable according to Jesus. You don’t know who is saved and who is not. You can only go by fruit. You can't see a healing. No one in Christ’s body is going to be burned up else we’d be burned also! See, you posted kingdom of heaven passages again in an attempt to harmonize.



There are only two kingdoms. The kingdom of Satan, and the Kingdom of the Father; that is the Kingdom of God/heaven. You want to divide the Father's Kingdom into the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God, and the kingdom of Christ, as though they differ and are not all the Kingdom of the Father and Christ, the Kingdom prepared for believers from the foundation of the world is ONE KINGDOM, not two or three. And the other kingdom is of Satan, and his kingdom is only darkness and pain. The Kingdom of God/heaven/Father/Christ wars against the kingdom of satan, but his kingdom will end.

Mt 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Re 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Mt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mt 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. This is correct! However you fail to see the big picture. The mystery of Christ that was hid from the foundation of the world. One kingdom divided in the garden of Eden to be more than just restored, but to be magnified in Christ far beyond what Adam ever had. I haven’t divided anything the Word Himself has not divided. It is temporary and we see through glasses darkly. The glory will be revealed. It’s a glory Adam never knew because he too was earthly and natural.



You don't have to be reformed or Calvinist to understand that faith is a gift of God's grace. This FACT is found in passages like the one in Eph 2 I gave you as well as:

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus ChristNone of these say faith is a gift. Not even close! To establish this doctrine one has to subscribe to total depravity. So yes one must subscribe to reformed theology or Calvinism because that doctrine was not held by either Judaism or the Apostles and is certainly not found in Scripture.

Sirus
Dec 4th 2008, 04:36 AM
First of all, it's common sense.
Second: why would God create the very first man & women as not elect?

I could have, but I wouldn't have.

The only "miracles" which draws people to Him are:
The creation, all that involves the atonement, that God's Word is still undefiled by man, and that His witnesses came to us and did not give up on us.
Integrity is another thing along with faith which keeps us.

Just as all other men are.
They would have died weather or not they sinned if they never ate from the tree of life.


One can only come to that conclusion by misinterpreting the Scriptures.
Just as you misinterpreting this one -------> ( Psalm 51:5 )

The only thing He must to in order for us to HAVE fellowship with Him is forgive us, reconcile us by His blood.
Since He has already done that, it remains up to every one to acknowledge this for them to fellowship with God.
By putting their very own faith in & on what Christ has said & done along with repentance is actually acknowledging the reconciliation between God & man


If it was about a "sin nature", then how is sin wrong?
Nothing is wrong about living according to ones nature.

Is it wrong for a pig to wallow in the mud after being washed!
No, because it is it's nature, but it is for us because it against our nature.

Is it wrong for a dog to return to his vomit?
No, because it is it's nature, but it is for us because it against our nature.
If we had a so called "sin nature" it would not be wrong to sin.

Quit using your nature as an excuse for your free will to sin

So, according to that, Adam was never "in" God, because he was hell bound until he trusted God to put him back in a right relationship with Him.
So it is with all mankind.Excellent post! Love it! I could rant an hour on the same. Except I don't think A & E were created perfect, as in absolute perfect. I believe what scripture says....it is very good. Good is not perfect. Good for the plan of redemption. Good for the purpose and will of God in Christ the mystery, but not absolutely perfect. They were earthly natural beings just as we are, no?
Carry on!

Yukerboy
Dec 4th 2008, 10:46 AM
Was Judas deceived? Absolutely.

Was Judas elect? Absolutely not.

The man doomed to perdition.

What does God say about those He has chosen?

He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ

He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come

Did God make Judas stand firm in Christ? If He didn't, and Judas was elect, then Paul is a liar, rip Paul's Epistles out of your Bible.

For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.;

Did Judas belong to Christ? If so, rip John's epistles out of your Bible, for the Bible cannot lie.

the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

Did the evil one enter Judas?

Just because Christ talked to His disciples does not mean he was warning the elect. No, for there was one who was not elect.

Yuke

RogerW
Dec 5th 2008, 12:13 AM
I agree. Why would Jesus be warning people who were among the elect about being deceived if it was not possible for them to be deceived? Why bother?

This is what He said to the disciples:

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Now, why would He tell the disciples, who were among the elect, to "take heed that no man deceive you" if it wasn't possible for them to be deceived? Was that something Jesus would do, to warn people about something that couldn't possibly happen? No.

This would mean He was saying "Watch out that you are not deceived...even though it's not possible that you will be". Does that make any sense? No. The verse is being misunderstood.

Here is the verse from Young's Literal Translation:

Matt 24:24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.

This is not saying that it is impossible to lead the chosen astray. It's translated in the KJV as "if it were possible" but the words "it were" were added by the translators. Let's look at another verse where that phrase is used. Again, from the YLT:

Acts 27:39 And when the day came, they were not discerning the land, but a certain creek were perceiving having a beach, into which they took counsel, if possible, to thrust forward the ship,

Like Matthew 24:24, the KJV adds the words "it were" so in that version it says "if it were possible". Now, is this verse saying that it was impossible for them to "thrust forward the ship"? No. It is actually saying that it was possible, but not certain.

We see this same concept in Acts 20:16.

Acts 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

Is this saying that it was not possible for Paul to be at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost? No. But if we read it the way some read Matthew 24:24 then we would say it was not possible for him to be at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost.

So, Matthew 24:24 should be understood the same way these other verses are. The false Christs and false prophets would try to deceive even the elect, if possible. It is possible, but it's not a certainty. We even talk like this today. We say things like "I'm going to climb that huge mountain, if possible.". Well, it is possible because others have done it, but it wouldn't be easy. It wouldn't be easy for false prophets to deceive the elect, especially if it's a mature believer who understands scripture well and has a close relationship with Christ. But, the reality is that it's actually saying that it is possible but not certain rather than saying that it's impossible.

Eric,

What have you proven? That it is possible for the elect of God to be deceived? It is true that if possible the elect might be deceived...Problem is there are many other passages found in Scripture showing us it is NOT possible. If false christs and false prophets could deceive the elect, then they could pluck us from Him, but Scripture tells us that is not possible. If false christs and false prophets could deceive the elect, then how can Paul say that nothing can separate us from the love of God? Nay, we are more than conquerors through Him that loves us, for He is at the right hand of God making intecession for us.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Re 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So what you have shown is that the elect could be deceived...if possible. Since we know it is not possible, we can rest in Christ, knowing He has begun a good work in us and He will complete it.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Dec 5th 2008, 12:54 AM
You did the same as Ward Fenley and ignored the text!
It says impossible for men in the kingdom of God, not difficult.
Jesus used both terms back to back and the disciples knew the difference so they rightly asked, ‘who can be saved’?

I have studied these corresponding passages for 2 years my friend and I read what Ward Fenley the Preterist wrote.

So, now you say it is possible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God by his own means. How so? How will he enter what does not come with observation and is within us (Luk 17:20-21)? How does he, by his own means, become a part of the body of Christ to partake of the heavenly nature, sit in heavenly places, and walk in works predestined? Please tell me!

Perhaps I am simply slow, but you'll have to show me exactly where the text says it is impossible for a rich man or any man to enter the kingdom. Any man can enter into the kingdom of God/heaven!

Neither have I, nor does the text even hint that a rich man can enter the kingdom by his own means. Every man, including the rich man called Joseph of Arimathaea must enter through Christ. Very clearly the FACT that this rich man was saved is proof that a rich man can be saved by grace through faith that is not his own but the gift of God's grace.



No, the kingdom of heaven is real. The kingdom of God for now is not observable according to Jesus. You don’t know who is saved and who is not. You can only go by fruit. You can't see a healing. No one in Christ’s body is going to be burned up else we’d be burned also! See, you posted kingdom of heaven passages again in an attempt to harmonize.

The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are one kingdom not two.

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.




This is correct! However you fail to see the big picture. The mystery of Christ that was hid from the foundation of the world.

What was the hidden mystery until Christ came was that salvation was unto all man. This was hidden from the Jews, who thought they alone would be saved. The word means that which is concealed or hidden; that which has not yet been known; and is applied to those truths which, until the revelation of Jesus Christ, were concealed from men, which were either hidden under obscure types and shadows or prophecies, or which had been altogether unrevealed, and unknown to the world.

The word is most commonly applied by Paul to the secret and long concealed design of God to make known his gospel to the Gentiles; to break down the wall between them and the Jews; and to spread the blessings of the true religion everywhere.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Ro 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Eph 6:20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.



One kingdom divided in the garden of Eden to be more than just restored, but to be magnified in Christ far beyond what Adam ever had. I haven’t divided anything the Word Himself has not divided. It is temporary and we see through glasses darkly. The glory will be revealed. It’s a glory Adam never knew because he too was earthly and natural.

Opinion without Scripture support is simply opinion.



None of these say faith is a gift. Not even close! To establish this doctrine one has to subscribe to total depravity.

Yes, since the Bible teaches there is none righteous, no, not one, and also that all who are born in Adam are born in bondage to satan, sin and death...yep I subscribe to total depravity. That is not that every man is as evil as he can be, but that every part of man, his whole being was effected by the fall of the first man. Since then every man is born with a nature or natural inclination for sin. We aren't called sinners because we sin, we sin because we are born with a nature in bondage to sinning.

Many Blessings,
RW

Diolectic
Dec 5th 2008, 01:53 AM
If false christs and false prophets could deceive the elect, then they could pluck us from Him, but Scripture tells us that is not possible. It's not them doing the plucking out. It would be you, yourself not take heed that no man deceive you.
You would be at falt not the ones deceiving.
Sure, they are at fault, but you must answer for yourself as Eve did when she was deceived.


If false christs and false prophets could deceive the elect, then how can Paul say that nothing can separate us from the love of God?That is why God would always be attempting to bring you back by the truth, but if you will not listen to truth but only the deception, there is no way for God to get through to you.
Some have iching ears which will only listen to what they like. They shall turn their ears away from the truth, if they love not the truth, then what?
(2Tim 4:3)

Sirus
Dec 5th 2008, 03:34 AM
One kingdom divided in the garden of Eden to be more than just restored, but to be magnified in Christ far beyond what Adam ever had. I haven’t divided anything the Word Himself has not divided. It is temporary and we see through glasses darkly. The glory will be revealed. It’s a glory Adam never knew because he too was earthly and natural.

Opinion without Scripture support is simply opinion. So let me get this straight....your opinion is

The kingdom is not divided.
Jesus is just going to restore what Adam had
This is it. All we see now is not temporary and we see perfectly.
There is no future glory to be revealed.
Adam knew and experienced what we have hope for and look for.

:spin:

RogerW
Dec 5th 2008, 04:49 AM
So let me get this straight....your opinion is

The kingdom is not divided.
Jesus is just going to restore what Adam had
This is it. All we see now is not temporary and we see perfectly.
There is no future glory to be revealed.
Adam knew and experienced what we have hope for and look for.

:spin:


Hmmm...still no support from Scripture for your opinions! Rather than concern yourself with what I believe why not simply prove your opinions are biblical with Scripture?

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Dec 5th 2008, 05:04 AM
Because they did not POSSESS the oil of the Holy Spirit - Rom 8:9.That's not exactly how that parable goes though. Didn't they run out? If they "ran out" then wouldn't they have had to possess it in order to in fact run out of oil?

9Marksfan
Dec 5th 2008, 11:37 AM
That's not exactly how that parable goes though. Didn't they run out? If they "ran out" then wouldn't they have had to possess it in order to in fact run out of oil?

Good to see you chiming in on this thread, Ken! It is fascinating to try to ascertain what the "oil" is in the parable - I've heard it said it's grace but other Scriptures speak of it as a symbol of the Spirit. I believe that the Spirit works in many (those who hear the external call) by way of illumination and conviction - I believe it is these who are referred to in the Heb 6:4-6 passage - and in a real sense, they DO partake of the Holy Spirit - as the foolish virgins did - yet the oil of conviction/illumination is not enough to save - RECEIVING the Spirit (going all Pentecostal here!) takes place following true repentance and faith - Acts 2:38, Eph 1:13, Jn 1:12. Only those who are truly converted (the few who are chosen)possess the Spirit in this saving way - remember, He convicts the WORLD (Jn 16:8) - yet the WORLD won't be saved!

John146
Dec 5th 2008, 02:31 PM
Eric,

What have you proven? That it is possible for the elect of God to be deceived? It is true that if possible the elect might be deceived...Problem is there are many other passages found in Scripture showing us it is NOT possible. If false christs and false prophets could deceive the elect, then they could pluck us from Him, but Scripture tells us that is not possible. If false christs and false prophets could deceive the elect, then how can Paul say that nothing can separate us from the love of God? Nay, we are more than conquerors through Him that loves us, for He is at the right hand of God making intecession for us.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Re 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So what you have shown is that the elect could be deceived...if possible. Since we know it is not possible, we can rest in Christ, knowing He has begun a good work in us and He will complete it.

Many Blessings,
RWRoger, I understand there are arguments to be made on both sides. But that doesn't mean you can just ignore everything I said. You didn't respond specifically to anything I said and instead brought up these other verses. I'm not denying that arguments can be made on both sides of this issue.

But why aren't you willing to address the points I made? Can you explain why Jesus would warn the disciples about being deceived if it was not possible for them to be deceived?

Matt 24
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

He was clearly telling the disciples to take heed that no one deceive them. Was He just saying that for no real reason or was it a real warning that they needed to heed?

Can you comment on what I said about how the phrase "if possible" is used elsewhere, such as Acts 20:16 and Acts 27:39?

I understand that no one can take us from God's hand and that He would never leave us nor forsake us. I completely agree with that. But could we leave or forsake Him? There are passages such as Hebrews 3:6-19 and Hebrews 6:4-6 that suggest believers can fall away. None of those verses you listed say that it's not possible for someone to fall away from the faith.

BroRog
Dec 5th 2008, 02:55 PM
That's not exactly how that parable goes though. Didn't they run out? If they "ran out" then wouldn't they have had to possess it in order to in fact run out of oil?

Mark and Peter, not everything in a parable has to have a direct correlation to the analogy. If we first understand the story on it's own terms, we simply have a tale of ten bride's maids waiting for the bride and groom to come. Five were prepared for an extended delay and five were not. To attempt to assign meanings to each and every item in the story might be pushing the analogy too far.

But if Jesus intended the oil to have significance in his analogy, the oil must help him make his analogy. I don't recall anywhere in the New Testament where it speaks about the Holy Spirit as something that is expendable, perishable, has a limited supply, or runs out.

If we understand the parable on its own terms, we know from our experience that lamps can be shared amongst those on a dark trail. My wife and I must walk two blocks at night to get the mail. She holds a single flashlight for the both of us. I don't really NEED my own flashlight. It would be nice to have another one. But it isn't necessary. So, I think it is a fair question to ask why the five virgins who had no oil didn't just walk along the trail in between the other virgins that had light?

Maybe the reason the foolish virgins didn't make it through the door is, not because they ran out of oil, but because they had wasted time going back to the store. The important thing, it seems to me, is to be available when the call comes, not to be off fussing with other stuff, i.e. returning to the store to buy more oil.

What was the indication that the wise virgins were wise? They anticipated the possibility that the bridegroom would be late, and prepared accordingly. The foolish virgins were foolish because they only brought enough oil for the typical duration of a wedding party procession. But had they stayed with the five wise virgins, they would have made it to the wedding.

Perseverance sometimes requires us to remain with Jesus, even if our personal resources are exhausted. I'm learning this by personal experience right now.

ProjectPeter
Dec 5th 2008, 03:22 PM
Good to see you chiming in on this thread, Ken! It is fascinating to try to ascertain what the "oil" is in the parable - I've heard it said it's grace but other Scriptures speak of it as a symbol of the Spirit. I believe that the Spirit works in many (those who hear the external call) by way of illumination and conviction - I believe it is these who are referred to in the Heb 6:4-6 passage - and in a real sense, they DO partake of the Holy Spirit - as the foolish virgins did - yet the oil of conviction/illumination is not enough to save - RECEIVING the Spirit (going all Pentecostal here!) takes place following true repentance and faith - Acts 2:38, Eph 1:13, Jn 1:12. Only those who are truly converted (the few who are chosen)possess the Spirit in this saving way - remember, He convicts the WORLD (Jn 16:8) - yet the WORLD won't be saved!
Good to be back posting. Been busy with a couple of projects here at the church but have them finished and thus some extra time on my hands. :)

There is a problem with all that though I figure. Biggest one being that now you're creating two different types of oil which the parable itself doesn't specify such as that. It was simply the same oil which they used to keep their lamps lit. Simple reading of the parable... they all had oil in their lamps. Five had enough and five ran out. When the bridegroom came along... they were out trying to get the oil to refill their lamp and by the time they got back... time was up. Too late for them to enter the chambers.

Be it signifying grace, Holy Spirit, mercy, salvation, ______________ (insert whatever)... the point is still the same. They had it (same oil as the others) and simply ran out. To read more into it than that... we really have to do some pretty intense addition to the parable don't you think?

ProjectPeter
Dec 5th 2008, 03:36 PM
Mark and Peter, not everything in a parable has to have a direct correlation to the analogy. If we first understand the story on it's own terms, we simply have a tale of ten bride's maids waiting for the bride and groom to come. Five were prepared for an extended delay and five were not. To attempt to assign meanings to each and every item in the story might be pushing the analogy too far. I agree with that Roger. Just making the point with the points that folks have made so far in their post. If we're going to make all of this significant to something then we must do so within the confines of the parable itself. When folks do that... one will usually find it all sorts of problematic.


But if Jesus intended the oil to have significance in his analogy, the oil must help him make his analogy. I don't recall anywhere in the New Testament where it speaks about the Holy Spirit as something that is expendable, perishable, has a limited supply, or runs out.

If we understand the parable on its own terms, we know from our experience that lamps can be shared amongst those on a dark trail. My wife and I must walk two blocks at night to get the mail. She holds a single flashlight for the both of us. I don't really NEED my own flashlight. It would be nice to have another one. But it isn't necessary. So, I think it is a fair question to ask why the five virgins who had no oil didn't just walk along the trail in between the other virgins that had light?

Maybe the reason the foolish virgins didn't make it through the door is, not because they ran out of oil, but because they had wasted time going back to the store. The important thing, it seems to me, is to be available when the call comes, not to be off fussing with other stuff, i.e. returning to the store to buy more oil.

What was the indication that the wise virgins were wise? They anticipated the possibility that the bridegroom would be late, and prepared accordingly. The foolish virgins were foolish because they only brought enough oil for the typical duration of a wedding party procession. But had they stayed with the five wise virgins, they would have made it to the wedding.

Perseverance sometimes requires us to remain with Jesus, even if our personal resources are exhausted. I'm learning this by personal experience right now.Why not just make the same point that Jesus made? Be on alert... be ready because we don't know when the bridegroom comes? That's the point that Jesus made beginning in the 28th verse of the 24th chapter. He's just continuing the point with a couple of other parables. That would seem to make much more sense and thus it keeps us from going outside of the simple truth that Jesus was trying to portray. As to would they have made it if they'd of not had oil... doesn't say one way or the other so can't say that would or wouldn't be the case. Wasn't Jesus' point I figure.

BroRog
Dec 5th 2008, 07:31 PM
I agree with that Roger. Just making the point with the points that folks have made so far in their post. If we're going to make all of this significant to something then we must do so within the confines of the parable itself. When folks do that... one will usually find it all sorts of problematic.

Why not just make the same point that Jesus made? Be on alert... be ready because we don't know when the bridegroom comes? That's the point that Jesus made beginning in the 28th verse of the 24th chapter. He's just continuing the point with a couple of other parables. That would seem to make much more sense and thus it keeps us from going outside of the simple truth that Jesus was trying to portray. As to would they have made it if they'd of not had oil... doesn't say one way or the other so can't say that would or wouldn't be the case. Wasn't Jesus' point I figure.

I believe we're on the same page. Thanks for responding. :)

RogerW
Dec 5th 2008, 09:19 PM
Roger, I understand there are arguments to be made on both sides. But that doesn't mean you can just ignore everything I said. You didn't respond specifically to anything I said and instead brought up these other verses. I'm not denying that arguments can be made on both sides of this issue.

But why aren't you willing to address the points I made? Can you explain why Jesus would warn the disciples about being deceived if it was not possible for them to be deceived?

Matt 24
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

He was clearly telling the disciples to take heed that no one deceive them. Was He just saying that for no real reason or was it a real warning that they needed to heed?

Can you comment on what I said about how the phrase "if possible" is used elsewhere, such as Acts 20:16 and Acts 27:39?

I understand that no one can take us from God's hand and that He would never leave us nor forsake us. I completely agree with that. But could we leave or forsake Him? There are passages such as Hebrews 3:6-19 and Hebrews 6:4-6 that suggest believers can fall away. None of those verses you listed say that it's not possible for someone to fall away from the faith.

Greetings Eric,

"If possible" Paul will be in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. And "if possible" they would anchor the ship at a certain creekshore. Christ warns His disciples because many have already been deceived by the false. Does that mean that His disciples can be so deceived that they can be eternally lost?

I was deceived for a time by the doctrine of free will. Does that mean that I was, or am eternally lost? No! But it did mean that I had no comfort and joy, thinking, like Martin Luther, what if I should die in some unconfessed or unrepentant sin? There would be no hope for me in my deception. But, then also like Martin Luther, I understood "salvation is by grace." WOW! What a revelation! It was not up to me to keep myself saved. But it was up to me to make sure I test, against the Word of God, all that men teach from the Scripture. Can I again become deceived? Of course I can! But do I need worry that being deceived will cause me to fall away from Christ and lose my salvation? NO WAY!

This is not just any warning from Christ to His elect. It specifically speaks of false christs and false prophets who claim to be of Christ, showing signs and wonders, and saying Christ is here or there. Don't let these false prophets and false christs deceive you into believing they are of Christ. When they show you signs and wonders and say that Christ is here or there do not believe them, for they are liars. He has foretold His elect all things, so it is not possible for the elect to be deceived by these false christs and false prophets who say they are of Christ. This is why Christ says, "if possible." If they could deceive His elect why would He add "if possible"? That doesn't make any sense. He adds it because He has forewarned His own, so it is not possible that these false christs and false prophets, coming with signs and wonders, saying Christ is here or there to be deceived by them.

Mr 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
Mr 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mr 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Dec 5th 2008, 09:40 PM
Greetings Eric,

"If possible" Paul will be in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. And "if possible" they would anchor the ship at a certain creekshore. Christ warns His disciples because many have already been deceived by the false. Does that mean that His disciples can be so deceived that they can be eternally lost? I don't know for sure about that, quite frankly. Regardless of that, though, He clearly was warning them about taking heed that they would not be deceived. Whether He was speaking in terms of being deceived to the point of losing their salvation would be debatable. What it certainly seems to imply is that it was possible for them to be deceived if they did not take heed and were not careful.


I was deceived for a time by the doctrine of free will.Oh, brother. Nice subtle way of saying that those who believe in free will are deceived there, Roger. :rolleyes:


Does that mean that I was, or am eternally lost? No!We probably all at one point believed in a false doctrine even after we are saved. Obviously, that doesn't mean we are no longer saved. Unless we no longer believed in Christ. But, obviously, what we believe regarding free will or end times doctrine and things like that doesn't determine whether we're saved or not. The question is whether Jesus was speaking in terms of being deceived by false doctrines like that or being deceived into following after false Christs. It's a bit hard to imagine someone could decide to follow a false Christ and still be considered a Christian.


But it did mean that I had no comfort and joy, thinking, like Martin Luther, what if I should die in some unconfessed or unrepentant sin? There would be no hope for me in my deception. But, then also like Martin Luther, I understood "salvation is by grace." WOW! What a revelation! It was not up to me to keep myself saved. But it was up to me to make sure I test, against the Word of God, all that men teach from the Scripture. Can I again become deceived? Of course I can! But do I need worry that being deceived will cause me to fall away from Christ and lose my salvation? NO WAY!That is your opinion. I would want to be very sure of that, though. Perhaps you have been deceived into thinking that, which could then easily lead to a feeling of complacency and eventually to doubts about what you believe? I'm not saying that is the case, I'm just throwing the possibility out there.


This is not just any warning from Christ to His elect. It specifically speaks of false christs and false prophets who claim to be of Christ, showing signs and wonders, and saying Christ is here or there. Don't let these false prophets and false christs deceive you into believing they are of Christ.Is that what it's saying, just not to be deceived that they are of Christ? Or not to be deceived that they are the Christ rather than Jesus being the Christ? That's what I always assumed the term "false Christ" meant. Seems like He's saying that these false prophets would try to claim that someone else was the Christ besides Jesus.


When they show you signs and wonders and say that Christ is here or there do not believe them, for they are liars. He has foretold His elect all things, so it is not possible for the elect to be deceived by these false christs and false prophets who say they are of Christ. This is why Christ says, "if possible." If they could deceive His elect why would He add "if possible"? That doesn't make any sense.I showed you what the phrase "if possible" means in other verses and it didn't mean "impossible". Are you willing to consider that or are you going to insist that it means what you think it means, regardless? If it truly wasn't possible for them to be deceived then why would He tell them to take heed that they are not deceived? Can you not see how little sense that would make?


He adds it because He has forewarned His own, so it is not possible that these false christs and false prophets, coming with signs and wonders, saying Christ is here or there to be deceived by them.

Mr 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
Mr 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mr 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Many Blessings,
RWYou don't seem to have taken into consideration what I said about other verses containing that phrase "if it were possible". The words "it were" were added by the translators. Here, again, are those verses and I would hope you would be willing to consider them.

Acts 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

Does the phrase "if it were possible for him" mean it was impossible for him to be at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. That's what it would mean if you read it that way you read Matthew 24:24. But that is not what it means. It was possible for him to be at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, but it wasn't certain whether he would be or not.

Acts 27:39 And when it was day, they knew not the land: but they discovered a certain creek with a shore, into the which they were minded, if it were possible, to thrust in the ship. 40And when they had taken up the anchors, they committed themselves unto the sea, and loosed the rudder bands, and hoised up the mainsail to the wind, and made toward shore.
41And falling into a place where two seas met, they ran the ship aground; and the forepart stuck fast, and remained unmoveable, but the hinder part was broken with the violence of the waves.

Does the phrase "if it were possible" mean that it was not possible for them to thrust in the ship? Clearly, it didn't mean that because they ended up doing just that. It means that they would do so if they could, but it was not certain whether they would be able to do it or not. That is how the phrase should be understood in Matthew 24:24 as well. False prophets would try to deceive even the elect, if they could, but it would not be certain whether or not they would succeed. But the implication, based on how the phrase is used elsewhere, that it would be possible, and not that it would be impossible, for them to do so.

ProjectPeter
Dec 5th 2008, 09:59 PM
I believe we're on the same page. Thanks for responding. :)
Cool... I'll cherish that for a bit! :lol:

RogerW
Dec 5th 2008, 10:21 PM
I don't know for sure about that, quite frankly. Regardless of that, though, He clearly was warning them about taking heed that they would not be deceived. Whether He was speaking in terms of being deceived to the point of losing their salvation would be debatable. What it certainly seems to imply is that it was possible for them to be deceived if they did not take heed and were not careful.

Oh, brother. Nice subtle way of saying that those who believe in free will are deceived there, Roger. :rolleyes:

We probably all at one point believed in a false doctrine even after we are saved. Obviously, that doesn't mean we are no longer saved. Unless we no longer believed in Christ. But, obviously, what we believe regarding free will or end times doctrine and things like that doesn't determine whether we're saved or not. The question is whether Jesus was speaking in terms of being deceived by false doctrines like that or being deceived into following after false Christs. It's a bit hard to imagine someone could decide to follow a false Christ and still be considered a Christian.

That is your opinion. I would want to be very sure of that, though. Perhaps you have been deceived into thinking that, which could then easily lead to a feeling of complacency and eventually to doubts about what you believe? I'm not saying that is the case, I'm just throwing the possibility out there.

Is that what it's saying, just not to be deceived that they are of Christ? Or not to be deceived that they are the Christ rather than Jesus being the Christ? That's what I always assumed the term "false Christ" meant. Seems like He's saying that these false prophets would try to claim that someone else was the Christ besides Jesus.

I showed you what the phrase "if possible" means in other verses and it didn't mean "impossible". Are you willing to consider that or are you going to insist that it means what you think it means, regardless? If it truly wasn't possible for them to be deceived then why would He tell them to take heed that they are not deceived? Can you not see how little sense that would make?

You don't seem to have taken into consideration what I said about other verses containing that phrase "if it were possible". The words "it were" were added by the translators. Here, again, are those verses and I would hope you would be willing to consider them.

Acts 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

Does the phrase "if it were possible for him" mean it was impossible for him to be at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. That's what it would mean if you read it that way you read Matthew 24:24. But that is not what it means. It was possible for him to be at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, but it wasn't certain whether he would be or not.

Acts 27:39 And when it was day, they knew not the land: but they discovered a certain creek with a shore, into the which they were minded, if it were possible, to thrust in the ship. 40And when they had taken up the anchors, they committed themselves unto the sea, and loosed the rudder bands, and hoised up the mainsail to the wind, and made toward shore.
41And falling into a place where two seas met, they ran the ship aground; and the forepart stuck fast, and remained unmoveable, but the hinder part was broken with the violence of the waves.

Does the phrase "if it were possible" mean that it was not possible for them to thrust in the ship? Clearly, it didn't mean that because they ended up doing just that. It means that they would do so if they could, but it was not certain whether they would be able to do it or not. That is how the phrase should be understood in Matthew 24:24 as well. False prophets would try to deceive even the elect, if they could, but it would not be certain whether or not they would succeed. But the implication, based on how the phrase is used elsewhere, that it would be possible, and not that it would be impossible, for them to do so.

How would you interpret this verse Eric? Is it possible that the hour for which Christ came might pass from Him?

Mr 14:35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

What about this verse? Is it possible or impossible that one would pluck out his own eyes to give to Paul?

Ga 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

Saying "if possible" doesn't always mean it is possible.

Many blessings,
RW

RANGER65
Dec 5th 2008, 11:31 PM
The truth is as plain as the words on the page in the last 3 verses of James chpt 5.

One last thought....the bible says it is God's will that all men be saved.

Is HE going to save all men? Or is it simply HIS will and everyone else has their own free will?
Ok if everyone who is saved can't miss it then why would you need to send "ye who are spiritual .....less you fall. (Para) Fall where? fall from what? How about the great falling away. That book is written to the church not the world. Who is going to fall from what? How can you fall from a tree if you were never in the tree. How could Judas have his name written in the Lamb's book of life and then have the devil enter into him? Judas was among the seventy that had the signs of "those who believe" cast out demons, speak with new tongues and then he fell. I guess he went on to Heaven from there. It is easy the scripture says "He that endures to the end shall be saved". :hmm: and I think you should stop coasting and "Work out your own salvation with FEAR and TREMBlING" and I do not think HE is going to do that for you.:B

9Marksfan
Dec 6th 2008, 09:05 AM
One last thought....the bible says it is God's will that all men be saved.

Will = desire here - wishing and willing are not the same thing.


Is HE going to save all men? Or is it simply HIS will and everyone else has their own free will?

If that is all it boils down to, then man is more powerful than God! Man's will trumps God's will every time! What kind of an omnipotent God is that?!? In theory, it's possible no one might have been saved and Christ would have died in vain!


Ok if everyone who is saved can't miss it then why would you need to send "ye who are spiritual .....less you fall.

Because the visible church is always a mixed body of believers and make-believers - surely that's obvious?!?


(Para) Fall where? fall from what? How about the great falling away. That book is written to the church not the world. Who is going to fall from what? How can you fall from a tree if you were never in the tree.

It's falling from a mere intellectual/emotional/psychological adherence to the faith that falls short of being born again. Just like a former Communist could decide that it was better to be a capitalist in later life....


How could Judas have his name written in the Lamb's book of life

What makes you think he ever did?


and then have the devil enter into him? Judas was among the seventy that had the signs of "those who believe"

Did the seventy include the twelve?


cast out demons, speak with new tongues and then he fell.

Well, I'll agree he was involved in preaching the gospel and deliverance ministry with the rest of the twelve - but the chilling warning there is that you can even be involved in that (Matt 7:21ff) and never have been saved....


I guess he went on to Heaven from there.

What makes you think that? Or were you being ironic?


It is easy the scripture says "He that endures to the end shall be saved". :hmm: and I think you should stop coasting and "Work out your own salvation with FEAR and TREMBlING"

Amen!


and I do not think HE is going to do that for you.:B

But WE are only able to do it BECAUSE of His work in us - how does the next verse put it?

...for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

God's decisive work ensures and enables our dependent work.

ProjectPeter
Dec 6th 2008, 05:52 PM
If that is all it boils down to, then man is more powerful than God! Man's will trumps God's will every time! What kind of an omnipotent God is that?!? In theory, it's possible no one might have been saved and Christ would have died in vain!I think this is the one argument that Reformed folk make that always leaves me scratching my head. In this sort of belief... you just as well could be asked "what kind of omnipotent God is that?" I mean seriously.... your belief is simply saying that God (being all omnieverything) isn't omnieverything enough to give man free will (I like free moral agency much better because that describes it better but for words sake that folks are familiar with I'll use the "will"). If God, in His omniwhateverstate He was in at the time, decided to give man free agency.... why can't God do that? Who's to tell Him that He can't... religion?

RogerW
Dec 6th 2008, 06:14 PM
I think this is the one argument that Reformed folk make that always leaves me scratching my head. In this sort of belief... you just as well could be asked "what kind of omnipotent God is that?" I mean seriously.... your belief is simply saying that God (being all omnieverything) isn't omnieverything enough to give man free will (I like free moral agency much better because that describes it better but for words sake that folks are familiar with I'll use the "will"). If God, in His omniwhateverstate He was in at the time, decided to give man free agency.... why can't God do that? Who's to tell Him that He can't... religion?

Hi Ken,

Been missing your wisdom! What makes you think that Reformed Christians deny that man can do whatsoever he/she wills? The problem comes from the nature behind our will. If we are still in our natural man, having been born in Adam, then we, including our will is in bondage to satan, sin and death. Therefore in this natural condition we WILL always choose according to our nature or natural state. In this natural state we will not choose Christ for life, because we have no desire to, therefore in our natural state we will not choose Him.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Dec 6th 2008, 06:21 PM
Hi Ken,

Been missing your wisdom!Ha! In having some time free up... I take a look around and all the cool threads are already well established. So have to jump in where there's a spot. :)


What makes you think that Reformed Christians deny that man can do whatsoever he/she wills? The problem comes from the nature behind our will. If we are still in our natural man, having been born in Adam, then we, including our will is in bondage to satan, sin and death. Therefore in this natural condition we WILL always choose according to our nature or natural state. In this natural state we will not choose Christ for life, because we have no desire to, therefore in our natural state we will not choose Him.

Many Blessings,
RWIf that is how the "sinful nature" works for unbelievers yet when one becomes an unbeliever they no longer work like that... then why do you, in your new nature, still sin just like the man in the sinful nature?

RogerW
Dec 6th 2008, 06:34 PM
Ha! In having some time free up... I take a look around and all the cool threads are already well established. So have to jump in where there's a spot. :)

If that is how the "sinful nature" works for unbelievers yet when one becomes an unbeliever they no longer work like that... then why do you, in your new nature, still sin just like the man in the sinful nature?

Hmmm...is this a trick question ;)?

Because I am not yet perfected??? I won't be as long as I am wearing this physical body of death??? Is this the answers you're looking for???

Yep, my new nature tells me not to sin, but I have this struggle going on within, due to the weakness of my flesh, so I try not to sin, but I do admit that at times I do succomb to temptation. Praise be to God...He has fully pardoned my every sin, so when I sin I don't lose my salvation, but I sure might feel the sting of chastisement that I might learn to sin NOT!

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Dec 6th 2008, 06:45 PM
Hmmm...is this a trick question ;)?

Because I am not yet perfected??? I won't be as long as I am wearing this physical body of death??? Is this the answers you're looking for???

Yep, my new nature tells me not to sin, but I have this struggle going on within, due to the weakness of my flesh, so I try not to sin, but I do admit that at times I do succomb to temptation. Praise be to God...He has fully pardoned my every sin, so when I sin I don't lose my salvation, but I sure might feel the sting of chastisement that I might learn to sin NOT!

Many Blessings,
RW
So then... the only difference between your "old" and "new" nature is telling you not to sin?

Doesn't sound like the "new nature" that the Scripture speaks of does it? Just taking that logic full circle and in the end... don't see any real difference between the old and new nature that you are speaking of. Sounds like you simply have a "modified" nature... nothing really new about it.

RANGER65
Dec 6th 2008, 06:45 PM
Why would you care so much about missing the train if you are living the lesson of true grace?

"12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 ¶ These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee." (Tit 2:12-15 AV):o If you are truly living holy to the best of your ability and are not caught up in presumptous sin and pray for the Lord to forgive you daily of the secet sins of your heart and the daily dust on your feet, why would this doctrine be such a sticking point. I know why.:hmm:

Be ye Holy for I am Holy. Greasy Grace is for children in the Lord. The more that is given, the more that is expected. If you have been a saint for 10 years, why would you expect the same lieniancy as a new born believer. No my friend "accountability" is God's program. Every branch that does not produce fruit is cut off and cast in the fire. If God did not demand growth he would have been happy with the evil servant that buried his talents. You will not be able to hide a mediocre life from God and just get by.

Sirus
Dec 6th 2008, 06:48 PM
Praise be to God...He has fully pardoned my every sin,
Actually is says "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord" I have been delivered from the body of this death.

ProjectPeter
Dec 6th 2008, 07:20 PM
Why would you care so much about missing the train if you are living the lesson of true grace?

"12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 ¶ These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee." (Tit 2:12-15 AV):o If you are truly living holy to the best of your ability and are not caught up in presumptous sin and pray for the Lord to forgive you daily of the secet sins of your heart and the daily dust on your feet, why would this doctrine be such a sticking point. I know why.:hmm:

Be ye Holy for I am Holy. Greasy Grace is for children in the Lord. The more that is given, the more that is expected. If you have been a saint for 10 years, why would you expect the same lieniancy as a new born believer. No my friend "accountability" is God's program. Every branch that does not produce fruit is cut off and cast in the fire. If God did not demand growth he would have been happy with the evil servant that buried his talents. You will not be able to hide a mediocre life from God and just get by.

I'll speak for both Roger and for 9Marks... neither of them are speaking about a greasy grace. While I disagree with them in several theological areas... I want to keep it honest here. Neither of them are fans of that either.

manichunter
Dec 7th 2008, 10:05 PM
I'll speak for both Roger and for 9Marks... neither of them are speaking about a greasy grace. While I disagree with them in several theological areas... I want to keep it honest here. Neither of them are fans of that either.


Was is greasy grace? Easy or what. Did not understand. Help........ :hmm:

Vhayes
Dec 7th 2008, 10:22 PM
Why would you care so much about missing the train if you are living the lesson of true grace?

"12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 ¶ These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee." (Tit 2:12-15 AV):o If you are truly living holy to the best of your ability and are not caught up in presumptous sin and pray for the Lord to forgive you daily of the secet sins of your heart and the daily dust on your feet, why would this doctrine be such a sticking point. I know why.:hmm:

Be ye Holy for I am Holy. Greasy Grace is for children in the Lord. The more that is given, the more that is expected. If you have been a saint for 10 years, why would you expect the same lieniancy as a new born believer. No my friend "accountability" is God's program. Every branch that does not produce fruit is cut off and cast in the fire. If God did not demand growth he would have been happy with the evil servant that buried his talents. You will not be able to hide a mediocre life from God and just get by.

I've been that unfruitful branch, my brother. God is patient; He disciplines and trains us in the way He would have us grow. I believe it would help you to look at this scripture as well:
Luke 13
6-And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.

7-"And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
8-"And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9-and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"
He is the God of second chances. The fertilizer certainly burns and stings but it is used judiciously and with results. I know that for a fact.
V

ProjectPeter
Dec 7th 2008, 10:55 PM
Was is greasy grace? Easy or what. Did not understand. Help........ :hmm:
Yeah... easy grace. No sweat... it's all good... Jesus died so you don't have to worry about all that "thou shall not" stuff.

ProjectPeter
Dec 7th 2008, 10:55 PM
I've been that unfruitful branch, my brother. God is patient; He disciplines and trains us in the way He would have us grow. I believe it would help you to look at this scripture as well:
Luke 13
6-And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.

7-"And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
8-"And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9-and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"
He is the God of second chances. The fertilizer certainly burns and stings but it is used judiciously and with results. I know that for a fact.
V
But if not? Why do you think that was included in that parable?

Vhayes
Dec 8th 2008, 12:34 AM
But if not? Why do you think that was included in that parable?
I believe it to be a very dire warning. If not? Then I personally believe God will take the unrepentent sinner out of this world.

That's my belief based on personal experience. Also, I think "burned" here doesn't refer to "hell" - but I could be wrong. The entire point becomes moot if I have once again returned to walking with the Lord.

Thanks for asking, by the way -
V

ProjectPeter
Dec 10th 2008, 02:17 AM
I believe it to be a very dire warning. If not? Then I personally believe God will take the unrepentent sinner out of this world.

That's my belief based on personal experience. Also, I think "burned" here doesn't refer to "hell" - but I could be wrong. The entire point becomes moot if I have once again returned to walking with the Lord.

Thanks for asking, by the way -
V
So using the "taken out of this world" as what that means... could you explain to me why it is that a person would be rewarded in such a way? It would be a reward right... taken out of this world and on the way to heaven?

2 Corinthians 5:6 *Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord --
7 *for we walk by faith, not by sight --
8 *we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

If that were the case then think of it... the fastest way to heaven for a Christian is to live in sin. Something awfully wrong with such logic I would think eh?