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TurboLung
Nov 21st 2008, 12:51 PM
Hello everyone,

I need some help, or, more specifically, answers that will help me. I am going through a stage in my life where I am looking for an answer. An answer to what you may ask; well, an answer to how we became, and at the moment, I believe we will probably never know. However, some background first.

I was brought up Greek Orthodox. I went to a Catholic School, Marist Brothers. I grew up knowing one God. Over time though, he changed. At school, he was a God who could send you to eternal hell if bad. As the years passed, his image changed to that of a caring God. In the bible, one could be struck down for collecting sticks on Sabbath.

I am at a cross roads in this time of my life. As I grew, and was taught through my parents to think for myself; and as I studied the sciences, I could not help but question God and any type of religion. I really fought against this, as I was brought up to believe in God - but what could I do? On one hand I had a book, the Bible, which told me certain things, and on the other, I had logic and actual proof of studies [such as evolution of man etc].

I have some questions that nobody who is religious can answer, and, by answer, I don't mean the easy way out, such as, "It's the devil at work" and it's a "conspiracy". That is just plain stupid. You know it and I know it.

Firstly, I would like to know where cave men, AKA, Neanderthals or Cro-Magnon fit into the Bible and mankind. Can any religion explain these humanoids, who where capable of creating fire, art [cave paintings], fashioning tools and wear clothes? There are hundreds of fossils, skeletons located in primitive clothing near camp fires etc? Carbon dating places those wearing clothes about 107,000 years ago. Some claim that carbon dating is inaccurate. Carbon dating is not inaccurate, however, if it was, it could not be 101,000 years inaccurate to fit into the Bible's teachings that man has been around only 6,000 years.

Secondly, why does God favour the one section of the Jews? Why did he not show himself also in Asia, Africa or even Australia to the Aboriginals? Why did he choose one little pocket and just a small group of people? Why not talk to all?

Thirdly, DNA is made up of 80 to 90% junk DNA. There are parts of DNA that contain the growth of our tail. Our bone structure shows we had tails hundreds-of-thousands of years ago. Why would our DNA hold such instruction if we didn't evolve? Some scientists believe that this DNA information has not been discarded but stored in case of further requirement or evolution. There are many examples such as the tail DNA to read about.

And more...

Dinosaurs? Were they part of the animal kingdom created by GOD?

The Arc: An Arc the size of three football fields could not hold enough people to care for the rescued animals, let alone the animals themselves. It is an impossibility. It is estimated that living species range from 10 to 100-million species. That's a lot of animal catching. What about storing the food required to feed them? What about afterwards? What would they eat? How did Moses walk to Africa, Australia etc to catch tigers, rhino's, koalas, elephants, and insects? What about locating and catching beetles? There are 2-million species of beetle alone? Imagine the people required to take care of them.

Some might say that the story is just a parable. I don't accept that all of a sudden, as science broadened that people can all of a sudden alter what is in the Bible by claiming a story that does not make sense as being a "parable".

At the moment I am Agnostic, meaning, I don't think we will ever know. I believe that there is a higher creator through reading Quantum Mechanics and Astronomy etc. I do not believe in a personal God or any religion on the planet today. This saddens me, because I feel as though I have lost something that has kept me hoping. If anything, I wish there were a God, however, logic and the gaping holes in the Bible keep me from being there.

I hope this does not turn into some type of bashing thread, but a discussion that might help me to understand life a little better.

Thank you for your time and input in advance.

TL :hmm:

RJ Mac
Nov 21st 2008, 01:55 PM
Sounds like you've got religion - science! The questions you are asking are dealt with in apologetics.

Jn.7:24 Do not judge according to appearance but judge with righteous judgment.
Jn.7:41 "This is the Christ!" Still others were saying, "Surely the Christ is not going to come from Galilee is He?"
Jn.742 "Has not the scripture said that the Christ comes from the descendants of David and from Bethlehem, the village where David was?'
Jn.7:52 "Search and see that no prophet arises out of Galilee!"

They were all so right and yet so wrong! So many claim to have the ultimate
proof the Bible is wrong and yet when it comes down to indepth study their arguments
fall to the wayside. The Bible always rises to meet the challenge.

So what does it take - Heb.11:6 and without faith it is impossible to please Him,
for He who comes to God must believe that He is and He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Do you have what it takes. Oh you can run away from God with childish reasonings
and you can cling to scientific arguments to your own destruction
Or you can rise up, take on the challenge and defend your faith in God and see where that takes you.

Ro.12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind,
so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Yes your going to run into dead end roads with some Christians but don't let their failures effect you,
just because you haven't found the answer doesn't mean there isn't one. It only means you haven't
searched long and hard enough for it. But wait that takes work and in this day and age everybody
wants fast food, have their cake and eat it to, the Bible for Dummies, after all there is so much
else to do with my life. Really?

Mk.12:31,32 You SHALL Love the Lord your God with ALL your heart, and
with ALL your soul, and with ALL your mind and with ALL your strength.

Do this and you SHALL find God, that's a promise from God.

Good luck in your quest, give it your all, the rewards are eternal.
The world is full of quitters and nay sayers, we don't need anymore.

RJ

Dragonfighter1
Nov 21st 2008, 02:06 PM
Hello everyone,

I need some help, or, more specifically, answers that will help me. I am going through a stage in my life where I am looking for an answer. An answer to what you may ask; well, an answer to how we became, and at the moment, I believe we will probably never know. However, some background first.

I was brought up Greek Orthodox. I went to a Catholic School, Marist Brothers. I grew up knowing one God. Over time though, he changed. At school, he was a God who could send you to eternal hell if bad. As the years passed, his image changed to that of a caring God. In the bible, one could be struck down for collecting sticks on Sabbath.

I am at a cross roads in this time of my life. As I grew, and was taught through my parents to think for myself; and as I studied the sciences, I could not help but question God and any type of religion. I really fought against this, as I was brought up to believe in God - but what could I do? On one hand I had a book, the Bible, which told me certain things, and on the other, I had logic and actual proof of studies [such as evolution of man etc].

I have some questions that nobody who is religious can answer, and, by answer, I don't mean the easy way out, such as, "It's the devil at work" and it's a "conspiracy". That is just plain stupid. You know it and I know it.
I'll try but to be honest this many questions in one thread is going to be disastrous. May I suggest posing each question an a separate thread if that happens. That way you can keep all the issues separated more easily.
There are many web sites you can visit for intelligent answers and a few that are just straight up religious answers. Answers in genesis is one organization that tries to return a biblical answer to every question on origins. There is another one: reasons.org this dude is a true scientist and although I dont understand all of his scientific intellectual answers he gives some pretty educated solutions that rely on data rather than religion per se.
They will both answer the tail bone question, which to me is more a problem for evolution than us. Its the same issue with the foetus looking like a fish, an absolutely ridiculous answer that the more cerebral evolutionists no longer bother to use. I think because to fight an intellectual battle you must not stoop to obvious idiocy... and for that I respect them.


Firstly, I would like to know where cave men, AKA, Neanderthals or Cro-Magnon fit into the Bible and mankind. Can any religion explain these humanoids, who where capable of creating fire, art [cave paintings], fashioning tools and wear clothes? There are hundreds of fossils, skeletons located in primitive clothing near camp fires etc? Carbon dating places those wearing clothes about 107,000 years ago. Some claim that carbon dating is inaccurate. Carbon dating is not inaccurate, however, if it was, it could not be 101,000 years inaccurate to fit into the Bible's teachings that man has been around only 6,000 years.
These answers can also be found at that site. Essentially there is no argument that they existed. There is discussion as to how much skeletal form was based on living conditions and nutritional deprivation, (though I don't think that solves the issue at all, but it may explain some small portion). That they are smaller is not an issue, man has been steadily growing taller throughout history. That's established and easily researchable.
The 6000 year lifespan of the earth you talk about in NOT held by everyone. In fact although I am generally more inclined to believe in a young earth the 6000 yr claim is hard to prove from scripture. Using genealogy is not precise as the books skipped unimportant people sometimes and gaps in the lineage can give 100's of years of missing data. If we are 80,000 or 60,000 or 10,000 I am not concerned.

What I do know is that there is a God. ... That he always provides enough doubt so that belief requires some faith. ...That upon faith action he can then be confirmed, but without it he cannot. ...That he never bribes people to believe in him although he does warn people of the consequences of unbelief.
To explain: if believing in God brings guarantees in THIS life of prosperity, health etc... then everyone would become a believer but not for the right reason, it would be based on greed and selfishness. So Part of your search must accept that no bribery is involved, that consequences of unbelief are involved and that faith is an important step.
.

Secondly, why does God favour the one section of the Jews? Why did he not show himself also in Asia, Africa or even Australia to the Aboriginals? Why did he choose one little pocket and just a small group of people? Why not talk to all?
The favor question is fair. Answer: He had to work with a (one) tribe. He had to provide a way of salvation and it was the Jews who got the lucky straw so to speak. It could just of easily been the nubians or the arabians, or the chinese, but for whatever reason God made his plans through the Jews. No point is asking why beyond that as there is no concrete answer possible until you can ask God directly(In heaven).

Faith has always been available to all these other tribes and God in his wisdom did not require them to speak Hebrew in order to be saved. The book of Romans spells out that all may be saved and that the things of God are evident in the whole world. He would like missionaries to go out and teach them more fully of the accurate truths of the faith but until the missionaries arrive they are still save-able because God is a just God and can be trusted to do the right thing- whatever that may be.

Thirdly, DNA is made up of 80 to 90% junk DNA. There are parts of DNA that contain the growth of our tail. Our bone structure shows we had tails hundreds-of-thousands of years ago. Why would our DNA hold such instruction if we didn't evolve? Some scientists believe that this DNA information has not been discarded but stored in case of further requirement or evolution. There are many examples such as the tail DNA to read about.There are probably over one thousand legitimate scientists that do not believe in evolution AND do not believe in christianity either. Evolution has been so far debunked by rational people however, it will not disappear... because as one man put it:
" to accept that evolution is false is to allow bishops into the laboratory-and we cant allow that. SO no matter how wrong we are, until a more feasable story comes along we will spend our times pointing at the holes in creation and refuse to debate holes in our own story" (this was a paraphrase as I couldnt remember the original book I read it in)

And more...Dinosaurs? Were they part of the animal kingdom created by GOD?Absolutely, and baby dinosaurs may well have been on the ark. Back then the average size of animals was the size of a small sheep. the ark had plenty of room for all the animals, and still more room for food storage etc.. It appears from the studies I read on it that the ark was adequate for the task. (did you know it had no steering rudder or propultion system?)

.

The Arc: An Arc the size of three football fields could not hold enough people to care for the rescued animals, let alone the animals themselves. It is an impossibility. It is estimated that living species range from 10 to 100-million species. That's a lot of animal catching. What about storing the food required to feed them? What about afterwards? What would they eat? How did Moses walk to Africa, Australia etc to catch tigers, rhino's, koalas, elephants, and insects? What about locating and catching beetles? There are 2-million species of beetle alone? Imagine the people required to take care of them.You discount the fact that if there was an ark there was a God involved and miraculous involvement would be necessary. The Bible indicates the animals came of their own accord, presumably led by God's mysterious power. The average size I mentioned earlier is more than sufficient, if the average is a sheep and many of the animals may well have been in their young or even infant form then there would be even more space available.

Then there is also the possibility that due to rough seas and etc,,, the animals may well have slept or not eaten much or even have entered some kind of hibernation. Again, this was a miraculous event or completely impossible. No one is going to build an ark in that day and age, without propulsion or steering on the size and scale mentioned without some kind of massive spiritual intervention. It is unreasonable to think otherwise. Once you accept there was spiritual involvement the details become moot as God can do anything. And on the other hand, if you say there was no God involved then there could be no ark as the task is insurmountable...by your own explanation.
.

Some might say that the story is just a parable. I don't accept that all of a sudden, as science broadened that people can all of a sudden alter what is in the Bible by claiming a story that does not make sense as being a "parable".Answered above. It was real and God managed, or it is a lie and we are all going to end up as space dust. A meanigless existence in that case.


At the moment I am Agnostic, meaning, I don't think we will ever know. I believe that there is a higher creator through reading Quantum Mechanics and Astronomy etc. I do not believe in a personal God or any religion on the planet today. This saddens me, because I feel as though I have lost something that has kept me hoping. If anything, I wish there were a God, however, logic and the gaping holes in the Bible keep me from being there.Please do yourself a favor and stop believing in religion. No true christian believes in religion. Its a long explanation but religion is for the morons and the ill educated and those who do not want to think.
There is a God. He is smarter than we can ever imagine. He dumbed down a lot of biblical info for the sake of man because until two or three hundred years ago we were largely (more than 95%) illiterate and stupid grunts. A smart God does not provide E=MC2 formulas to cave dwellers and superstitious gits!:lol:

No My friend God really is smart. I think part of Christianities struggle right now is to move forward to a greater understanding of God without making him something of our own definition. That means no easy way out for you and I who want intelligence in the pulpit, nor is it easy for the religious types who want emotion and baser loyalty in the pulpit.
.

I hope this does not turn into some type of bashing thread, but a discussion that might help me to understand life a little better.

Thank you for your time and input in advance.

TL :hmm:[/quote]

No one is allowed to bash or malign here. Occasional someone from the less intellectual camp will post pulpit pounding drivel or quote a hundred verses thinking that they are doing the right thing. When that happens do what the smarter ones do and do not reply at all. Then they will leave you alone. There are many very conservative and very smart Christians (who will use well targeted and germaine scripture references where appropriate) in this site. I would like to be included in the list but I may be only c minus grade compared to them. However I stand ready to try to help you so long as your agenda is honest and you maintain that agenda.

God Bless
DF

Br. Barnabas
Nov 21st 2008, 02:11 PM
I am going to tell you what one of my professors told a group of students in a on campus religious group.

He was talking about students that came to him with questions like yours. He said that they are asking the wrong questions of the Bible. The Bible is not a science book; it is not even a history book. It is a religious text. It does not have to have all the answers. It tells stories that are meant to give a message one about how to, as the authors felt, have a better life or to serve a great God.

If you want to believe in evolution and the other things that you asked questions about that is fine you can be a Christian and hold to the ideas that you have about science. Those are not really important issues in the larger scope of Christian beliefs. What is important is believing in the message laid out in the ancient creeds which growing up Orthodox and going to Catholic school I am sure you are familiar with.

But really all the other issues are secondary and don't really effect salvation. There is a large number of Christians who believe like you do about evolution and other matters that are science related. I am not a scientist, thus I cannot answer your questions but I can say don't let your questions keep you from something that you think is missing in your life. Because in the end those questions that you have are not all that important in the grand scheme of Christian belief. They are controversial so they get a lot of attention; but really not that important.

RogerW
Nov 21st 2008, 07:10 PM
Hello everyone,

I need some help, or, more specifically, answers that will help me. I am going through a stage in my life where I am looking for an answer. An answer to what you may ask; well, an answer to how we became, and at the moment, I believe we will probably never know. However, some background first.

I was brought up Greek Orthodox. I went to a Catholic School, Marist Brothers. I grew up knowing one God. Over time though, he changed. At school, he was a God who could send you to eternal hell if bad. As the years passed, his image changed to that of a caring God. In the bible, one could be struck down for collecting sticks on Sabbath.

I am at a cross roads in this time of my life. As I grew, and was taught through my parents to think for myself; and as I studied the sciences, I could not help but question God and any type of religion. I really fought against this, as I was brought up to believe in God - but what could I do? On one hand I had a book, the Bible, which told me certain things, and on the other, I had logic and actual proof of studies [such as evolution of man etc].

I have some questions that nobody who is religious can answer, and, by answer, I don't mean the easy way out, such as, "It's the devil at work" and it's a "conspiracy". That is just plain stupid. You know it and I know it.

Firstly, I would like to know where cave men, AKA, Neanderthals or Cro-Magnon fit into the Bible and mankind. Can any religion explain these humanoids, who where capable of creating fire, art [cave paintings], fashioning tools and wear clothes? There are hundreds of fossils, skeletons located in primitive clothing near camp fires etc? Carbon dating places those wearing clothes about 107,000 years ago. Some claim that carbon dating is inaccurate. Carbon dating is not inaccurate, however, if it was, it could not be 101,000 years inaccurate to fit into the Bible's teachings that man has been around only 6,000 years.

Secondly, why does God favour the one section of the Jews? Why did he not show himself also in Asia, Africa or even Australia to the Aboriginals? Why did he choose one little pocket and just a small group of people? Why not talk to all?

Thirdly, DNA is made up of 80 to 90% junk DNA. There are parts of DNA that contain the growth of our tail. Our bone structure shows we had tails hundreds-of-thousands of years ago. Why would our DNA hold such instruction if we didn't evolve? Some scientists believe that this DNA information has not been discarded but stored in case of further requirement or evolution. There are many examples such as the tail DNA to read about.

And more...

Dinosaurs? Were they part of the animal kingdom created by GOD?

The Arc: An Arc the size of three football fields could not hold enough people to care for the rescued animals, let alone the animals themselves. It is an impossibility. It is estimated that living species range from 10 to 100-million species. That's a lot of animal catching. What about storing the food required to feed them? What about afterwards? What would they eat? How did Moses walk to Africa, Australia etc to catch tigers, rhino's, koalas, elephants, and insects? What about locating and catching beetles? There are 2-million species of beetle alone? Imagine the people required to take care of them.

Some might say that the story is just a parable. I don't accept that all of a sudden, as science broadened that people can all of a sudden alter what is in the Bible by claiming a story that does not make sense as being a "parable".

At the moment I am Agnostic, meaning, I don't think we will ever know. I believe that there is a higher creator through reading Quantum Mechanics and Astronomy etc. I do not believe in a personal God or any religion on the planet today. This saddens me, because I feel as though I have lost something that has kept me hoping. If anything, I wish there were a God, however, logic and the gaping holes in the Bible keep me from being there.

I hope this does not turn into some type of bashing thread, but a discussion that might help me to understand life a little better.

Thank you for your time and input in advance.

TL :hmm:

Greetings TL,

Please take the time to search this link. I think it will answer all of your questions.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

Blessings,
RW

Diolectic
Nov 21st 2008, 07:27 PM
If Evolution is true.
Who or what wrote the DNA code.

Knowing that diferent animals need diferent DNA code, how does the code get re-writen for every othe animal?

There must be an Original code writer for all of creation.
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells not in temples made with hands;
:25 Neither is worshiped with men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he gives to all life, and breath, and all things;
:26 And has made of one blood all nations of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
:27 That they should seek the Lord, if perhaps they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
:29 Therefore then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Deity is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
:30 And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent:

Dinosaurs? Were they part of the animal kingdom created by GOD?Noah carries baby dinosaurs onto the ark.
He most likely caries all baby animals which were weened from the parent by God.
Why wouls Noah bring fully grown animals an the ark when baby ones would live longer?

gpmosely
Nov 22nd 2008, 04:19 AM
Hey TL,

I'm glad your here, mainly because I was in the same boat as you were not to long ago myself. Well lets start by talking about God himself. That was where your first question was.

I'm also going to tell you, I will give this to you very straight. Why? Because again it takes someone who has been there to realize that the usual christian answers don't hold the substinance we crave. I mean, really just saying God said so, you are absolutely right, it doesn't hold water for someone who is logical. It's more of an answer for a blind sheep.

God himself does not change. God is a very logical and is pretty much like any parent. He says I love you but if you get out of line you're gonna suffer the consequences type. So God himself has not changed. Man has changed.

As you grew older you were essentially questioning God's existance from what man had told you God was.

SO lets start on the questions shall we? :)

1) Cavemen: Ok here we go. In the beginning God Created the heavens and the earth. Nowhere does it say *WHEN* God created the earth. No where does it say: about 89,000 years ago God created the earth. It just says God created the earth. Now, here is where it might get a little confusing.

So God creates this planet whenever- sometime in the far past. Then he creates it in a 7000 year time frame (a day in our time is 1,000 years to the lord). So...this begins our answer to another question you had. Now, this is where it will get a bit confusing for you. The Bible itself is a book about a man and his family. The man is Adam and it's his family which branched out. When God created man he created all the races on the sixth day and then he created woman through the helix curve of the DNA. So there we go that establishes that. Of course, during that time, between Adam and his "generation" to lets say Abraham we have a series of groups themselves- the neanderthals, the cave men etc etc.

2)God showed himself to the Jews because of the man and his family as discussed before with Adam. God made a covenant with Adam and later down the lineage Jesus came about. Now, your question is why not the rest of the world? Well the Jews scattered about going across the Caucauses mountains. There were 12 tribes and Judah (the King line of Jesus' lineage) remained in the Jerusalem area. Now, when Jesus was born and grew up etc we have to remember at that time trade was very big. Jesus was pretty much born in the center of the trade routes. So, word of him could travel as far as China and Austrailia etc. So basically what God did was he revealed his son to a group of people - that were in the middle of huge trade thanks to the Romans and so the message COULD be spread.

3) you mean the coccyx bone? Yes, I am well aware of that part of anatomy. :D But the reality is, if you look at any creature without a tail it will also have the coccyx. Now does that mean we had tails? In the embroyonic stage, yes we do. Its a form of human development. It is true that we do have a lot of junk DNA in our DNA but consider our DNA like computers. If something were to happen that we would need to adapt we would be able to because of our ancestors. For example: Look at the people in the Andes Mountains. They live there and their bodys had to adapt by creating larger lungs and hearts.

4) Dinosaurs: Yes, there is a passage in job (I think thats the book) that describes a dinosaur. It talks about a big behemonth and a tail the size of a cedar. So yes, God would have to create that creature in order for it to be there. That then shows us that even through abrahams time- and we really need to tack on an additional couple of thousand years because the record keeper here was Job... there are dinosaurs in the Bible. (I'll have to look up the address for you though!)

5) The Flood. That is a perspective question to be very honest with you. Some will say that the flood covered the entire Earth. I think it just covered Mesopotamia myself. It's just a matter of perspective. Now, it is known that the Ancient Chinneese had a technology (I believe during the Song dynasty) to make a big boat similar to that of Noah's ark. Now that could be something that was used if we want to argue a world wide flood, but again, I just don't believe that happened myself. I think Moses while writing the Bible wrote it that there was a world flood because everything he knew was flooded and by the accounts of what went down from generation to generation it may have gotton a bit bigger and bigger as it went along so he misinterpreted it as a world wide flood. That's what I think though.

ServantofTruth
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:30 PM
Your problem, like many of us, is as a child you believed what you are told. First one version of God was taught to you- the angry hell kind, then the another - the all loving kind.

Then you matured and got very bright and your education taught you other things - basically that the bible is rubbish!? Believe me that is in much education. You may at the moment believe it, but it is just taught to you.

YOU need to think for yourself! :pp

Firstly you assume wrongly that ALL christians believe about creation/ evolution the same way. Very Wrong. I refuse to enter the debates on this subject because they go on for months and pages and hardly anyone moves a millimeter. But believe me the differences are huge and you'll find many that see science exactly as you do. :)

So what are YOU rejecting? Because your starting point should be the gospels - the good news - of Jesus Christ. There is plenty of time to 'argue/ discuss' other issues within the church/ body of Jesus Christ. There is wide view on many issues.

Each time you have a problem with God/ Jesus or the bible - Please ask yourself this question: Is this what the bible actually says, then go and check and ask us Christians - or is it what people have taught me, that only some christians believe, that is there interpretation not God's original Word/ bible.

My best advice to many people is - don't ask me, go read the bible. I'm flawed and a fool. I know it, the bible says it and i rejoice in the Lord my Saviour. God bless, SofTy.

daughter
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:39 PM
Hey there.

I think part of the problem is that you were brought up religious, but you don't know the Bible. Sorry if I've misunderstood, but if you read the Bible you would know that it wasn't Moses who built the Ark, and also, nobody "caught" the animals, they came.

Dragonfighter made a very good point... perhaps you could start several threads with different questions, so you know where to find the specific answers.

May I ask... have you had any chance to study the Bible at all?