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Firefighter
Nov 21st 2008, 06:09 PM
we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."
NKJV

Answer: The people of all languages could hear in their own dialect, the testimony of the wonderful works of God.

What then do we do with Acts 10:47, 1 Corinthians 14:2, 15-16, 17, 19 ?


That people might become believers, and disciples of Christ.

I agree as long as the context is in the assembly of the saints.:pp

RoadWarrior
Nov 21st 2008, 06:21 PM
What then do we do with Acts 10:47, 1 Corinthians 14:2, 15-16, 17, 19 ?



I agree as long as the context is in the assembly of the saints.:pp

Why don't you tell me, what do you do with those? I quoted the scriptures that answered the question. Please quote and discuss the scriptures which you think are important.

Firefighter
Nov 21st 2008, 06:30 PM
I just gave you the scriptures. You made the claim that tongues were only known languages, so surely you have already considered the verses I have provided that say otherwise, right?

1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

If tongues are KNOWN languages, why is it that no one understands them?

See the problem with your answer?

looking4jesus
Nov 21st 2008, 06:42 PM
I just gave you the scriptures. You made the claim that tongues were only known languages, so surely you have already considered the verses I have provided that say otherwise, right?

1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

If tongues are KNOWN languages, why is it that no one understands them?

See the problem with your answer?

Yes but look how easy it is for Satan to counterfit a bunch of gibberish that no one understands..give me a break anyone can babble gibberish and with auto suggestion being so high in pentecostal churches they will probably belive it is from God..You need to know that there are dispensations in the Bible which means certain things for certain times.
If you lump everything together thed Bible would never make good sense-

God Bless
Randy

RogerW
Nov 21st 2008, 06:54 PM
I just gave you the scriptures. You made the claim that tongues were only known languages, so surely you have already considered the verses I have provided that say otherwise, right?

1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

If tongues are KNOWN languages, why is it that no one understands them?

See the problem with your answer?

Hmmm, because they are speaking in a language that others there do not know... Therefore he is speaking to God through the Spirit, and since no one else knows the language he is speaking in it is a mystery to them what he may be speaking in the Spirit.

Many Blessings,
RW

VerticalReality
Nov 21st 2008, 07:15 PM
Yes but look how easy it is for Satan to counterfit a bunch of gibberish that no one understands..give me a break anyone can babble gibberish and with auto suggestion being so high in pentecostal churches they will probably belive it is from God..You need to know that there are dispensations in the Bible which means certain things for certain times.
If you lump everything together thed Bible would never make good sense-

God Bless
Randy

Are you stating that Satan counterfeits the gift of tongues with "gibberish"? What wicked or evil thing do you suppose Satan is accomplishing through this "gibberish"?

looking4jesus
Nov 21st 2008, 08:35 PM
Are you stating that Satan counterfeits the gift of tongues with "gibberish"? What wicked or evil thing do you suppose Satan is accomplishing through this "gibberish"?

I see your point but actaully alot can be accomplished by letting just gibberish in under the guise of God. The people that are speaking gibberish are under Satan control and do not know it so Satan wil use them in a way to bring down the real church of Jesus Christ. He can use these people in any way he wants. Who knows what the person is saying the person could be praying to Satan and demons in a unknown but acient langguage and who to know. That is why the Bible says to only use the unknown tonque in private prayer not in the assembly of people in a church but no pentecostal church follows that command.
God Bless
Randy

Emanate
Nov 21st 2008, 08:38 PM
Are you stating that Satan counterfeits the gift of tongues with "gibberish"? What wicked or evil thing do you suppose Satan is accomplishing through this "gibberish"?


He certainly has fooled the gibberish speaker into believing they are very spritual. Led astray many by thinking they are worshipping God when they have actually been so consumed by emotionalism and shown their capacity to be fooled (lying sings and false wonders).

looking4jesus
Nov 21st 2008, 08:44 PM
He certainly has fooled the gibberish speaker into believing they are very spritual. Led astray many by thinking they are worshipping God when they have actually been so consumed by emotionalism and shown their capacity to be fooled (lying sings and false wonders).

Amen exactlyI wish that many pentecostals would look at the history of their faith. Looking at the early rivals would be a good start to see if it was from God or Satan..People lying on the ground making all kinds of animals sounds women screaming etc etc.
God Bless
Randy

Emanate
Nov 21st 2008, 08:49 PM
Amen exactlyI wish that many pentecostals would look at the history of their faith. Looking at the early rivals would be a good start to see if it was from God or Satan..People lying on the ground making all kinds of animals sounds women screaming etc etc.
God Bless
Randy


These actions are quite common within Voodoo to this day.

JesusReignsForever
Nov 21st 2008, 08:53 PM
He certainly has fooled the gibberish speaker into believing they are very spritual. Led astray many by thinking they are worshipping God when they have actually been so consumed by emotionalism and shown their capacity to be fooled


I agree with this I have seen it first hand...people are so ready to start "shouting" and "speaking in tounges" but are sure enough on there way to hell if they dont straighten it up and get it right with God. I went to this one church with my grandpa in NYC and the people were dancing and I mean dancing from the time we got there until the time we left....it was insane! I thought those kind of things only happened on You Tube but not so. It was horrible, and the spirit of God was there but very slightly..like there was only a few who were in the spirit. Emotionalism is on the rampage... watch out!:eek:

looking4jesus
Nov 21st 2008, 09:09 PM
I agree with this I have seen it first hand...people are so ready to start "shouting" and "speaking in tounges" but are sure enough on there way to hell if they dont straighten it up and get it right with God. I went to this one church with my grandpa in NYC and the people were dancing and I mean dancing from the time we got there until the time we left....it was insane! I thought those kind of things only happened on You Tube but not so. It was horrible, and the spirit of God was there but very slightly..like there was only a few who were in the spirit. Emotionalism is on the rampage... watch out!:eek:

That was and is my point Satan is very much alive in these churches but is is near impossible to go to a brother or sister in Jesus and tell them this as they will reject you that is how strong a hold Satan has. Most people think as long as they are sincere it must come from God that is their first mistake.
God Bless
Randy

JesusReignsForever
Nov 21st 2008, 09:17 PM
That was and is my point Satan is very much alive in these churches but is is near impossible to go to a brother or sister in Jesus and tell them this as they will reject you that is how strong a hold Satan has. Most people think as long as they are sincere it must come from God that is their first mistake.
God Bless
Randy


True which is why we have to PRAY :pray: prayer is a powerful thing and it changes everything. Pray Pray Pray!! Who can fix a problem better than God? NO ONE! :lol:

I just love HIM more everyday! :kiss:

looking4jesus
Nov 21st 2008, 09:21 PM
True which is why we have to PRAY :pray: prayer is a powerful thing and it changes everything. Pray Pray Pray!! Who can fix a problem better than God? NO ONE! :lol:

I just love HIM more everyday! :kiss:

So very true prayer is truly amazing when you think about it.
God Bles you JRF
Randy:pp

VerticalReality
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:11 AM
I see your point but actaully alot can be accomplished by letting just gibberish in under the guise of God. The people that are speaking gibberish are under Satan control and do not know it so Satan wil use them in a way to bring down the real church of Jesus Christ. He can use these people in any way he wants. Who knows what the person is saying the person could be praying to Satan and demons in a unknown but acient langguage and who to know. That is why the Bible says to only use the unknown tonque in private prayer not in the assembly of people in a church but no pentecostal church follows that command.
God Bless
Randy

So then your belief here is that it isn't exactly "gibberish", as you call it, but in reality some ancient language? What ancient language do think that would be?

VerticalReality
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:13 AM
He certainly has fooled the gibberish speaker into believing they are very spritual. Led astray many by thinking they are worshipping God when they have actually been so consumed by emotionalism and shown their capacity to be fooled (lying sings and false wonders).

So you are contending that those who speak this "gibberish" really aren't spiritual but just emotionally foolish?

How do you make this determination?

looking4jesus
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:35 AM
So then your belief here is that it isn't exactly "gibberish", as you call it, but in reality some ancient language? What ancient language do think that would be?

I said could be nothing is for sure with Satan and that is where most of this tongue speaking and slain in the spirit comes from.

I have seen the exact same reaction in differt yoga camps it is all a lie from Satan. He gets the ball rolling then the high emotionlism takes over and then unknowing you gave Satan permission to enter so you have a spirit filled church but the spirit is not of God. This has always been my experience and almost always these types of churches will teach false doctrine and that is what Satan wants so he can accuse the real christians
God Bless
Randy

VerticalReality
Nov 22nd 2008, 02:27 AM
I said could be nothing is for sure with Satan and that is where most of this tongue speaking and slain in the spirit comes from.

I have seen the exact same reaction in differt yoga camps it is all a lie from Satan. He gets the ball rolling then the high emotionlism takes over and then unknowing you gave Satan permission to enter so you have a spirit filled church but the spirit is not of God. This has always been my experience and almost always these types of churches will teach false doctrine and that is what Satan wants so he can accuse the real christians
God Bless
Randy

I'm still just not seeing what you're saying here. How can you tell this "gibberish" is from Satan? What about what they're saying makes it this "gibberish" that you speak of?

looking4jesus
Nov 22nd 2008, 04:39 AM
I'm still just not seeing what you're saying here. How can you tell this "gibberish" is from Satan? What about what they're saying makes it this "gibberish" that you speak of?

How can you tell it is not..
The reason your not seeing is because you do not wnt to see.
God bless
Randy

Lamplighter
Nov 22nd 2008, 04:52 AM
Why would God have a man, woman, or child, stand up in an all English speaking church in the USA, and prophesy in a foreign language they can't understand, nor can anybody else understand? What purpose does this serve? Talk about a misunderstanding of spiritual gifts. No way this is Biblical. The church in Corinth was a port city with people visiting it from all cultures and many different languages being spoken, hence the need for interpreters. What Pentecostals today are doing is not from Satan, it's just something they have been taught to do, and it simply comes from the flesh. It's not evil, but it's also not genuine.

VerticalReality
Nov 22nd 2008, 05:56 AM
How can you tell it is not..
The reason your not seeing is because you do not wnt to see.
God bless
Randy

What am I not wanting to see? It seems to me by how you are following up with these questions that you really don't have an answer for what makes this "gibberish" from the devil. Why are you attributing something to the devil when it is obvious you really just aren't sure? Do you not think that is a little dangerous? I would hate to find out down the road that I was attributing something to the devil when it was from God. If you are going to be calling things like this of the devil it would probably be a good idea to be 100% certain.

Now, again I'm asking you . . .

This is your opportunity to make your case and show us all here why those who speak in these tongues are deceived and need to stop. What can you show us here that proves that these tongues are from the devil? Are you simply speculating? Let's put a stop to all the fear tactics and actually talk about truth. What proves these tongues are from the devil?

VerticalReality
Nov 22nd 2008, 06:12 AM
Why would God have a man, woman, or child, stand up in an all English speaking church in the USA, and prophesy in a foreign language they can't understand, nor can anybody else understand? What purpose does this serve? Talk about a misunderstanding of spiritual gifts. No way this is Biblical. The church in Corinth was a port city with people visiting it from all cultures and many different languages being spoken, hence the need for interpreters. What Pentecostals today are doing is not from Satan, it's just something they have been taught to do, and it simply comes from the flesh. It's not evil, but it's also not genuine.

That's a mighty large blanket you're using. Why is it folks are always trying to speak for other people? The fact of the matter is that if I was to tell some folks that I've witnessed blind eyes being opened and healed in the name of Jesus many would say, "Yeah right." If I was to say that I've seen the deaf made to hear again instantaneously many would say, "This guy is off his rocker," or worse yet, "This guy is a liar."

The fact is I can use the same approach that many others want to use. I could say that these folks don't have any firsthand knowledge about whether or not folks are truly speaking in legitimate tongues, and they are simply speaking forth what has been taught and engrained in their mind through man-made religion and fear tactics. Regardless of whether some of the skepticism is legitimate . . . that broad brush is just dangerous.

It's not difficult to state that there are some folks that are not speaking in legitimate tongues. However, to just pull out a large brush and swipe an entire denomination is not accurate at all. In fact, there are many Pentecostals on this forum that I respect a great deal that have many great testimonies of this gift in operation according to the biblical direction given. Regardless, as unfortunate as it is there will still be many calling it of the devil or of the flesh. Nevermind the fact that many have been blessed through this gift. Nevermind that many have come to the Lord through this gift. Nevermind the positive fruit that is still produces. It's not conforming to the logic of man, so therefore it must either be of the devil or of the flesh.

godsgirl
Nov 22nd 2008, 11:49 AM
I served satan for 28 years and not once did he give me the ability to speak in tongues as the Spirit enabled me. Tongues are the first evidence the Bible gives of being baptised in the Holy Spirit. Jesus is our baptiser in the Spirit and He only gives good and perfect gifts.

looking4jesus
Nov 22nd 2008, 03:45 PM
I served satan for 28 years and not once did he give me the ability to speak in tongues as the Spirit enabled me. Tongues are the first evidence the Bible gives of being baptised in the Holy Spirit. Jesus is our baptiser in the Spirit and He only gives good and perfect gifts.

Does not mean anything. I can show you firsthand Voodo, Yoga andothers where prople speak in te same unknown tongues.
This is why you and so many fall victum of this lie because you think just because your in a church and your sincere and the pastor says that you should speak in tongues as evidence that you been baptised well you belive all this stuff and none of it is true.
God Bles
Randy

looking4jesus
Nov 22nd 2008, 03:48 PM
What am I not wanting to see? It seems to me by how you are following up with these questions that you really don't have an answer for what makes this "gibberish" from the devil. Why are you attributing something to the devil when it is obvious you really just aren't sure? Do you not think that is a little dangerous? I would hate to find out down the road that I was attributing something to the devil when it was from God. If you are going to be calling things like this of the devil it would probably be a good idea to be 100% certain.

Now, again I'm asking you . . .

This is your opportunity to make your case and show us all here why those who speak in these tongues are deceived and need to stop. What can you show us here that proves that these tongues are from the devil? Are you simply speculating? Let's put a stop to all the fear tactics and actually talk about truth. What proves these tongues are from the devil?

God words tells you that speaking in tongues will cease..now I ask you show me the evidence where speaking in tongues is not from the devil.
God Bless
Randy

VerticalReality
Nov 22nd 2008, 03:48 PM
Does not mean anything. I can show you firsthand Voodo, Yoga andothers where prople speak in te same unknown tongues.
This is why you and so many fall victum of this lie because you think just because your in a church and your sincere and the pastor says that you should speak in tongues as evidence that you been baptised well you belive all this stuff and none of it is true.
God Bles
Randy

When the early church spoke in other tongues how were they supposed to know that they were speaking in tongues from the Spirit or tongues from the devil? The only reason you know that they spoke tongues from the Spirit is because the bible says so. However, how were they supposed to know that?

VerticalReality
Nov 22nd 2008, 03:49 PM
God words tells you that speaking in tongues will cease..now I ask you show me the evidence where speaking in tongues is not from the devil.
God Bless
Randy

Yes, it says they will cease when we are perfected. That hasn't happened yet, so those tongues are still active.

looking4jesus
Nov 22nd 2008, 03:54 PM
Yes, it says they will cease when we are perfected. That hasn't happened yet, so those tongues are still active.

That is not in scripture you assumed and added that as your opinion.
As far as the early church goes they were speaking in the native tongue of the listener and all were saying the same message of Gods word.
Any way his has ben exhusted here on this thread. the day wil come where you will surely know the truth coming from our lord Jesus mouth so you willhave no excuse until then I will agree to disagree with you.
God bless
Randy

VerticalReality
Nov 22nd 2008, 06:30 PM
That is not in scripture you assumed and added that as your opinion.

It most certainly is in Scripture . . .


As far as the early church goes they were speaking in the native tongue of the listener and all were saying the same message of Gods word.

That's not the direction that Paul gives in 1 Corinthians 14. He says that folks need to speak in tongues silently to themselves in the church because the rest will not understand, so they were not speaking in their native tongue. So, how were they supposed to know, since nobody understood the tongue, that they were speaking the tongues of the Spirit or the tongues of the devil?

looking4jesus
Nov 22nd 2008, 06:56 PM
It most certainly is in Scripture . . .



That's not the direction that Paul gives in 1 Corinthians 14. He says that folks need to speak in tongues silently to themselves in the church because the rest will not understand, so they were not speaking in their native tongue. So, how were they supposed to know, since nobody understood the tongue, that they were speaking the tongues of the Spirit or the tongues of the devil?

Ok show me the scripture that says tongues will cease when we are perfected.
OK
God Bless
Randy

VerticalReality
Nov 22nd 2008, 08:33 PM
Ok show me the scripture that says tongues will cease when we are perfected.
OK
God Bless
Randy

Okay . . .

First of all the verse you are referencing that says tongues will cease . . .

1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

This passage is obviously comparing and contrasting love with that of prophecy, tongues and knowledge. While the latter three will fail or cease at some point, love will continue on and never fail. So, when will these things fail or cease? Let's continue reading . . .

1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

Why do we know in part and prophesy in part? Well, prophecy, knowledge and tongues are spiritual gifts. Unfortunately, we are not always tuned into the spirit. We have a flesh the battles against us receiving from the spirit. It's just as Paul states in Galatians 5:16-17

Galatians 5:16-17
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

If we were able to walk by the spirit non-stop and never have the hinderance of the flesh then we would not just receive prophecy and so forth in part. We would receive it fully. When we are with the Lord we will not receive in part any longer. We will have full revelation then.

However, let us continue on and see when these gifts will no longer be necessary . . .

1 Corinthians 13:10
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

So, Paul tells us here that when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. What is "that which is in part"? That would be prophecy, tongues and knowledge. When that which is perfect has come then all those things which are in part will be done away. They will no longer be needed.

Now, immediately you have many folks who claim that the "that which is perfect" is the bible. They state that when the bible was canonized "that which is perfect" had arrived in the the completion of the Scriptures.

While I do believe that the Scriptures are inerrant and given by inspiration of God, Paul goes on in verse 12 to prove that the "that which is perfect" is not the bible. Let's have a look . . .

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Here Paul tells us that at the moment he only knows in part. Get that? Paul says that even he only knows in part. However, he then says that when "that which is perfect" has come then he will know just as he also is known. Now this presents a huge problem for those who claim that the bible is "that which is perfect" because Paul says here that he is going to see it. However, Paul never saw and witnessed the completion of the canonized bible. Parts of Scripture were not even written until after his death. So if Paul states that he is going to see "that which if perfect" he cannot be talking about the bible. However, he does tell us the context of what he is referencing . . .

1 Corinthians 13:10-11
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Now, after Paul tells us that those things which are in part will be done away when that which is perfect has come he immediately begins talking about himself in verse 11. He begins to discuss how when he grew from a child into a man he stopped doing those things he did as a child.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Here at the beginning of verse 12 Paul continues addressing himself and other Christians stating that we only see in a mirror dimly. What are we looking at in this mirror? Well, when you look in a mirror you see a reflection of yourself. However, he states that we only see this reflection dimly. Why? It is because we only know in part. When we look in this mirror we are seeing our spirit man dimly. Our spirit man has been perfected and is in the image of our Lord and Savior. He then states that when "that which is perfect" has come then we will see "face to face". He says that we will know just as we also are known. In other words, when "that which is perfect" has come then we will no longer just know in part but we will know fully. When "that which is perfect" has come then we will no longer be looking in this mirror dimly. We will see a reflection in that mirror that is completely clear. We will come face to face with that perfect spirit man that is seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus and has been resurrected in His image.

There are other Scriptures referring to this same thing . . .

2 Corinthians 3:17-18
Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face,beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The reason we currently see in this mirror dimly is because our soul has not been perfected yet. Our mind, will and so forth still needs to be transformed back into the image of the Lord. We are going through a daily process of renewal known as sanctification. When we have been completely sanctified, then we will have seen that which is perfect face to face. We will be completed in Him . . .

This is the confidence that Paul spoke of here . . .

Philippians 1:3-6
I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

As we can see here . . . God has begun a perfect work in us. However, this perfect work has not yet been completed. We are completed and perfected in spirit. However, in our body and soul we are not perfected. 1 Corinthians 13 is talking about this perfection. When we are perfected fully, we will no longer know in part. We will know just as we are known in the spirit.

So, until this perfection takes place we are still in need of prophecy, knowledge and tongues along with the rest of the gifts of the Spirit.

That which is perfect has come when we have been perfected and completed in Him.

looking4jesus
Nov 22nd 2008, 09:37 PM
Okay . . .

First of all the verse you are referencing that says tongues will cease . . .

1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

This passage is obviously comparing and contrasting love with that of prophecy, tongues and knowledge. While the latter three will fail or cease at some point, love will continue on and never fail. So, when will these things fail or cease? Let's continue reading . . .

1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

Why do we know in part and prophesy in part? Well, prophecy, knowledge and tongues are spiritual gifts. Unfortunately, we are not always tuned into the spirit. We have a flesh the battles against us receiving from the spirit. It's just as Paul states in Galatians 5:16-17

Galatians 5:16-17
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

If we were able to walk by the spirit non-stop and never have the hinderance of the flesh then we would not just receive prophecy and so forth in part. We would receive it fully. When we are with the Lord we will not receive in part any longer. We will have full revelation then.

However, let us continue on and see when these gifts will no longer be necessary . . .

1 Corinthians 13:10
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

So, Paul tells us here that when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. What is "that which is in part"? That would be prophecy, tongues and knowledge. When that which is perfect has come then all those things which are in part will be done away. They will no longer be needed.

Now, immediately you have many folks who claim that the "that which is perfect" is the bible. They state that when the bible was canonized "that which is perfect" had arrived in the the completion of the Scriptures.

While I do believe that the Scriptures are inerrant and given by inspiration of God, Paul goes on in verse 12 to prove that the "that which is perfect" is not the bible. Let's have a look . . .

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Here Paul tells us that at the moment he only knows in part. Get that? Paul says that even he only knows in part. However, he then says that when "that which is perfect" has come then he will know just as he also is known. Now this presents a huge problem for those who claim that the bible is "that which is perfect" because Paul says here that he is going to see it. However, Paul never saw and witnessed the completion of the canonized bible. Parts of Scripture were not even written until after his death. So if Paul states that he is going to see "that which if perfect" he cannot be talking about the bible. However, he does tell us the context of what he is referencing . . .

1 Corinthians 13:10-11
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Now, after Paul tells us that those things which are in part will be done away when that which is perfect has come he immediately begins talking about himself in verse 11. He begins to discuss how when he grew from a child into a man he stopped doing those things he did as a child.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Here at the beginning of verse 12 Paul continues addressing himself and other Christians stating that we only see in a mirror dimly. What are we looking at in this mirror? Well, when you look in a mirror you see a reflection of yourself. However, he states that we only see this reflection dimly. Why? It is because we only know in part. When we look in this mirror we are seeing our spirit man dimly. Our spirit man has been perfected and is in the image of our Lord and Savior. He then states that when "that which is perfect" has come then we will see "face to face". He says that we will know just as we also are known. In other words, when "that which is perfect" has come then we will no longer just know in part but we will know fully. When "that which is perfect" has come then we will no longer be looking in this mirror dimly. We will see a reflection in that mirror that is completely clear. We will come face to face with that perfect spirit man that is seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus and has been resurrected in His image.

There are other Scriptures referring to this same thing . . .

2 Corinthians 3:17-18
Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face,beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The reason we currently see in this mirror dimly is because our soul has not been perfected yet. Our mind, will and so forth still needs to be transformed back into the image of the Lord. We are going through a daily process of renewal known as sanctification. When we have been completely sanctified, then we will have seen that which is perfect face to face. We will be completed in Him . . .

This is the confidence that Paul spoke of here . . .

Philippians 1:3-6
I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

As we can see here . . . God has begun a perfect work in us. However, this perfect work has not yet been completed. We are completed and perfected in spirit. However, in our body and soul we are not perfected. 1 Corinthians 13 is talking about this perfection. When we are perfected fully, we will no longer know in part. We will know just as we are known in the spirit.

So, until this perfection takes place we are still in need of prophecy, knowledge and tongues along with the rest of the gifts of the Spirit.

That which is perfect has come when we have been perfected and completed in Him.

Understood however your still making a big leap trying to connect that passage where tongues will cease with a perfections. That is noting but a big assumptions on your part.
God Bless
Randy

VerticalReality
Nov 22nd 2008, 09:41 PM
Understood however your still making a big leap trying to connect that passage where tongues will cease with a perfections. That is noting but a big assumptions on your part.
God Bless
Randy

I don't see the assumption. I laid out what the Scriptures say. What part is the assumption? Our perfection isn't the assumption. I gave you clear Scripture stating we are in need of being perfected. Tongues isn't an assumption. The Scriptures clearly say they will cease.

What is an assumption?

looking4jesus
Nov 22nd 2008, 10:02 PM
I don't see the assumption. I laid out what the Scriptures say. What part is the assumption? Our perfection isn't the assumption. I gave you clear Scripture stating we are in need of being perfected. Tongues isn't an assumption. The Scriptures clearly say they will cease.

What is an assumption?

linking up the 2 one has nothing to do with the other.
Paul was speaking about the early church
Back to my orginal point most if not all tongue speaking today is false brought on by high emotions and also by Satan deceptons.
There simply is no need for speaking in tongues today but there was a need for all the gifts of the spirit for the early church think about it we are speaking about the first few churches in the world surely the need for prophecy and speaking in tongues was there. They we front runners building the new Church. Today you simply have some people where the word of God and his promise of our salvation is not enough they want more they want a feeling and that is where you get in trouble seeking experiences is not of God.
Ok enough said.
God Bless
Randy

VerticalReality
Nov 22nd 2008, 10:14 PM
linking up the 2 one has nothing to do with the other.

What two things have nothing to do with each other?

Can you please provide some Scripture backing what you are stating. You have made the claim the tongues are now of the devil but have no Scripture supporting your claim. You are claiming that tongues have ceased but have not provided a biblical assertion for this claim. It would really help others to see where you are coming from if you would lay out for us how you have arrived at such a position.


Paul was speaking about the early church

So the rest of Paul's writings we can only apply to the early church as well? What are we supposed to live by today?



Back to my orginal point most if not all tongue speaking today is false brought on by high emotions and also by Satan deceptons.

So why have you not taken the opportunity here in this thread to show everyone how you have come to this conclusion? What Scriptures do you use to support this? How did the early church know they were speaking by the power of the Spirit and not the power of the devil?


There simply is no need for speaking in tongues today but there was a need for all the gifts of the spirit for the early church think about it we are speaking about the first few churches in the world surely the need for prophecy and speaking in tongues was there.

Why wouldn't we need them? I don't think you or anyone can claim to have perfect knowledge and understanding. Therefore, you still know in part just as the Scriptures in 1 Corinthians 13 declare.


They we front runners building the new Church. Today you simply have some people where the word of God and his promise of our salvation is not enough they want more they want a feeling and that is where you get in trouble seeking experiences is not of God.

I've already shown you where the Word of God is not the "that which is perfect" spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13. So, the bible is not what brought about the end of prophecy, knowledge and tongues.


Ok enough said.

Not really . . . you haven't really said anything yet about how you have arrived at these conclusions, and you haven't given anyone in this thread a reason to believe the position you are preaching. Aren't we to preach from God's Word? What Scriptures are you using to arrive at these conclusions? We cannot simply accept what you say simply because you claim it is true. We need to see where the Word of God backs your position. So far you have not provided us with sufficient evidence to accept your claim.

I've provided you with an abundant amount of Scriptures from our Lord's Word to us backing what I have preached. I would expect the same in return from you. Otherwise, we will have to reject this notion that prophecy, knowledge and tongues are no longer for today.

looking4jesus
Nov 22nd 2008, 10:29 PM
What two things have nothing to do with each other?

Can you please provide some Scripture backing what you are stating. You have made the claim the tongues are now of the devil but have no Scripture supporting your claim. You are claiming that tongues have ceased but have not provided a biblical assertion for this claim. It would really others to see where you are coming from if you would lay out for us how you have arrived at such a position.



So the rest of Paul's writings we can only apply to the early church as well? What are we supposed to live by today?




So why have you not taken the opportunity here in this thread to show everyone how you have come to this conclusion? What Scriptures do you use to support this? How did the early church know they were speaking by the power of the Spirit and not the power of the devil?



Why wouldn't we need them? I don't think you or anyone can claim to have perfect knowledge and understanding. Therefore, you still know in part just as the Scriptures in 1 Corinthians 13 declare.



I've already shown you where the Word of God is not the "that which is perfect" spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13. So, the bible is not what brought about the end of prophecy, knowledge and tongues.



Not really . . . you haven't really said anything yet about how you have arrived at these conclusions, and you haven't given anyone in this thread a reason to believe the position you are preaching. Aren't we to preach from God's Word? What Scriptures are you using to arrive at these conclusions? We cannot simply accept what you say simply because you claim it is true. We need to see where the Word of God backs your position. So far you have not provided us with sufficient evidence to accept your claim.

I've provided you with an abundant amount of Scriptures from our Lord's Word to us backing what I have preached. I would expect the same in return from you. Otherwise, we will have to reject this notion that prophecy, knowledge and tongues are no longer for today.

I still hold the belief that speaking in tongues today has cease so ha the author who wrote this piece below.

At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language (1 Corinthians 14:10 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Corinthians%2014.10)). It would be for the purpose of communicating God's Word with a person of another language (Acts 2:6-12 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%202.6-12)). It would be in agreement with the command that God gave through the Apostle Paul, "If anyone speaks in a tongue, two — or at the most three — should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God" (1 Corinthians 14:27-28 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Corinthians%2014.27-28)). It would also be in submission to 1 Corinthians 14:33 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Corinthians%2014.33), “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

God most definitely can give a person the gift of speaking in tongues to enable him/her to communicate with a person who speaks another language. The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the dispersion of the spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:11 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Corinthians%2012.11)). Just imagine how much more productive missionaries could be if they didn’t have to go to language school, and were instantly able to speak to people in their own language. However, God does not seem to be doing this. Tongues does not seem to occur today in the form it did in the New Testament despite the fact that it would be immensely useful. The vast majority of believers who claim to practice the gift of speaking in tongues do not do so in agreement with the Scriptures mentioned above. These facts lead to the conclusion that the gift of tongues has ceased, or is at least a rarity in God's plan for the church today.

VerticalReality
Nov 22nd 2008, 10:58 PM
I still hold the belief that speaking in tongues today has cease so ha the author who wrote this piece below.

Just a reminder, if you are going to be referencing the work of other people according to board rules you need to cite the source and where you found it.


At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language (1 Corinthians 14:10 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Corinthians%2014.10)). It would be for the purpose of communicating God's Word with a person of another language (Acts 2:6-12 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%202.6-12)). It would be in agreement with the command that God gave through the Apostle Paul, "If anyone speaks in a tongue, two — or at the most three — should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God" (1 Corinthians 14:27-28 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Corinthians%2014.27-28)). It would also be in submission to 1 Corinthians 14:33 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Corinthians%2014.33), “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

So this person you are referencing is stating that if the gift of tongues was truly active today then it would only take place if it is in total agreement with Scripture. According to this source if the gift of tongues was truly given today then there would be nobody speaking out of order. There would only be two or three speaking at a time. There would be no confusion and so on. Tell me, if this is true what is the point of Paul giving this instruction in 1 Corinthians 14 to begin with? If it is a guarantee that the true gift of tongues by the Spirit is going to be in agreement with this person's interpretation stated above then there would be no need for Paul to give the instruction he gave in 1 Corinthians 14. The truth of the matter is that you can have disorder in a service, too many folks speaking in tongues and so on with the actual gift of tongues still being from the Lord. The gift is still from God . . . the order in which it is used is up to the person operating in it.


God most definitely can give a person the gift of speaking in tongues to enable him/her to communicate with a person who speaks another language.

He can give the gift even if there is noone speaking another language to preach to. Otherwise there would be no need for Paul to state in 1 Corinthians 14 that they should speak those tongues to themselves if there is no interpreter. This person you are referencing is placing qualifications on the gift of tongues that the Scriptures do not give.


Just imagine how much more productive missionaries could be if they didn’t have to go to language school, and were instantly able to speak to people in their own language. However, God does not seem to be doing this.

Sure He is. There are countless testimonies to this fact. Some are just choosing to remain in unbelief and not accept those testimonies. Instead, they are choosing to remain in the belief that they have been taught that states these gifts are no longer for today.


Tongues does not seem to occur today in the form it did in the New Testament despite the fact that it would be immensely useful.

It surely does still operate that way. The writer you are referencing is using the error of some and acting as if this is the same all across the board. This couldn't be further from the truth. This is the same as me saying that all Church of Christ folks feel it is against the Lord's Word to play musical instruments in church. Not all folks who affiliate themselves with the Church of Christ denomination agree or practice this belief. However, it would be mighty sad and wrong if I were to paint the entire denomination with the same broad brush.


The vast majority of believers who claim to practice the gift of speaking in tongues do not do so in agreement with the Scriptures mentioned above. These facts lead to the conclusion that the gift of tongues has ceased, or is at least a rarity in God's plan for the church today.

As I pointed out, even the Corinthians did not use this gift in agreement with Paul's instructions, which is why he had to give those instructions to begin with. So to say that tongues have ceased simply because poeple use the gift in error is just flatout wrong and contrary to the very Word of God that this individual you are referencing claims to follow.

ears2hear
Nov 22nd 2008, 11:03 PM
Why would God have a man, woman, or child, stand up in an all English speaking church in the USA, and prophesy in a foreign language they can't understand, nor can anybody else understand? What purpose does this serve? Talk about a misunderstanding of spiritual gifts. No way this is Biblical. The church in Corinth was a port city with people visiting it from all cultures and many different languages being spoken, hence the need for interpreters. What Pentecostals today are doing is not from Satan, it's just something they have been taught to do, and it simply comes from the flesh. It's not evil, but it's also not genuine.

Thank you for posting this lamplighter.

My dh and I were involved in a Pentecostal church for most of our christian walk. We had both been prayed over to "receive the Holy Spirit" (:note:) and of course were immediatly expected to speak in tongues. It didn't happen then and it hasn't happened yet. We both beat ourselves up quite a bit regarding this issue. Sheesh....what on earth were we doing wrong that God would not gift us with this?! I mean...we kept getting told that this was a lesser gift...so why not?

Before we even started researching in books and internet, we prayed. Imagine...we prayed first for God's revelation on why we were not receiving this gift.:pray:

What we believe He revealed to us was exactly what you have posted in a nut shell. We are Believers. We received the Holy SPirit (our helper) the day we came to the saving knowlege of Jesus Christ. There are indeed active gifts of the Spirit today...however...if I may add just a little bit more to your post...:blush:?

Biblical tongues is a super natural gift given by God to bring those who do not know Him to the saving knowlege of Christ and what He did for us on the cross. It is to be used when those who are seeking or are lost can not understand what is being said..hence Missionaries etc.

Now, I have heard God speak through man. IN MY LANGUAGE...ENGLISH. I have heard a man of God speak during worship service things that have directly impacted me, challenged me, encouraged me and convicted me. All of this was done in english. It was spoken for the entire congregation to hear...and I do believe that it was God speaking through this man. It brought honor and glory to God. It confirmed things in my spirit that needed to be confirmed.

So, I guess what I am trying to say is thank you for posting this...(sorry, said it again).

looking4jesus
Nov 23rd 2008, 12:11 AM
Why would God have a man, woman, or child, stand up in an all English speaking church in the USA, and prophesy in a foreign language they can't understand, nor can anybody else understand? What purpose does this serve? Talk about a misunderstanding of spiritual gifts. No way this is Biblical. The church in Corinth was a port city with people visiting it from all cultures and many different languages being spoken, hence the need for interpreters. What Pentecostals today are doing is not from Satan, it's just something they have been taught to do, and it simply comes from the flesh. It's not evil, but it's also not genuine.

Exactly what does it serve. First of all you walk in a penetecostal church and you will son hear people speaking what I call Giberish. Now it is clear in the Bible that the unknown tongue is to be used in private not in a assembly thats the first clue something is very wrong.
Secondly you cannot say it is not of Satan or evil speaking in tongues that are unknown have been used by deomons for centuries. My belief Satan gets the ball rolling and then the person want these spiritual highs(fixes)
continue the process on their own. When I would visit these types of Chuches I would always walk away with a creeping feeling like exiting a horror moive and th movie stay with you.
God Bless
Randy

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 12:27 AM
Exactly what does it serve.

As the Scriptures say, it edifies the one speaking . . . which is a good thing.


First of all you walk in a penetecostal church and you will son hear people speaking what I call Giberish.

Which is out of order, but this does not mean that the tongues are of the devil.


Now it is clear in the Bible that the unknown tongue is to be used in private not in a assembly thats the first clue something is very wrong.

Which indicates a good purpose for the gift still being given. If they are to be spoken in private to edify the speaker this is a good thing. Therefore, the gift still serves a purpose even when others are not around who speak a different language.


Secondly you cannot say it is not of Satan or evil speaking in tongues that are unknown have been used by deomons for centuries.

Demons have even used the Word of God through false teachers to bring division and other such nonsense as well, but I'm not going to throw the bible out just because it has been used inappropriately.



My belief Satan gets the ball rolling and then the person want these spiritual highs(fixes)
continue the process on their own.


Yet no evidence to suggest this is what is going on in these churches.


When I would visit these types of Chuches I would always walk away with a creeping feeling like exiting a horror moive and th movie stay with you.
God Bless
Randy

Paul indicated that many who visited the Corinthian church left feeling the same way. However, that did not mean that the tongues the Corinthians were speaking were of the devil.

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 12:37 AM
Thank you for posting this lamplighter.

My dh and I were involved in a Pentecostal church for most of our christian walk. We had both been prayed over to "receive the Holy Spirit" (:note:) and of course were immediatly expected to speak in tongues. It didn't happen then and it hasn't happened yet. We both beat ourselves up quite a bit regarding this issue. Sheesh....what on earth were we doing wrong that God would not gift us with this?! I mean...we kept getting told that this was a lesser gift...so why not?

Before we even started researching in books and internet, we prayed. Imagine...we prayed first for God's revelation on why we were not receiving this gift.:pray:

What we believe He revealed to us was exactly what you have posted in a nut shell. We are Believers. We received the Holy SPirit (our helper) the day we came to the saving knowlege of Jesus Christ. There are indeed active gifts of the Spirit today...however...if I may add just a little bit more to your post...:blush:?

Biblical tongues is a super natural gift given by God to bring those who do not know Him to the saving knowlege of Christ and what He did for us on the cross. It is to be used when those who are seeking or are lost can not understand what is being said..hence Missionaries etc.

Now, I have heard God speak through man. IN MY LANGUAGE...ENGLISH. I have heard a man of God speak during worship service things that have directly impacted me, challenged me, encouraged me and convicted me. All of this was done in english. It was spoken for the entire congregation to hear...and I do believe that it was God speaking through this man. It brought honor and glory to God. It confirmed things in my spirit that needed to be confirmed.

So, I guess what I am trying to say is thank you for posting this...(sorry, said it again).

You are welcome.:hug:

I am all too familiar with the Pentecostal version of tongues(glossa).

They told me since I do not speak in their version of tongues, that I don't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They told me not only is it the only initial evidence, it's the only evidence. They have no scriptural evidence to back this up of course, because the gift of languages is the last in rank, not the first in rank(1 Cor 12:28). First in rank is apostles(apostolos) not tongues(glossa). So if they used scripture, then if you were not apostle, then you would not be baptized in the Holy Spirit, which of course we know this is not true either.

Acts 11:13-17.


And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?


Where are the Pentecostal tongues(Unknown Heavenly Languages) in this baptism of the Holy Spirit event? Where are any spiritual gift evidences for this matter?

Spiritual gifts(tongues included) are not the evidence of the baptism, boldly proclaiming the gospel of Christ is the evidence.

Acts chapter 2 is KNOWN languages, not UNKNOWN languages. Pentecost is known languages, not mystery languages of Heavenly origin.Too bad Pentecostals don't realize this fact.

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 01:14 AM
Acts chapter 2 is KNOWN languages, not UNKNOWN languages. Pentecost is known languages, not mystery languages of Heavenly origin.Too bad Pentecostals don't realize this fact.

Again with the broad brush . . .

There are Pentecostals on this very site who have witnessed folks speaking in tongues that were KNOWN languages.

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 01:23 AM
Again with the broad brush . . .

There are Pentecostals on this very site who have witnessed folks speaking in tongues that were KNOWN languages.

That is what I said. Tongues(glossa) are known human languages from every culture around the world. Not some mystical Heavenly unknown to any man superhuman language.

I know some Baptist missionaries with the gift of tongues who can preach the gospel in Spanish to Spanish speaking people. They can also obviously interpret English into Spanish for their English only speaking ministry partners.

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 01:46 AM
That is what I said. Tongues(glossa) are known human languages from every culture around the world. Not some mystical Heavenly unknown to any man superhuman language.

Actually, in the prior post you stated that the "Pentecostal version" of tongues that you are "all too familiar with" was just some unknown language, as if Pentecostals do not believe that the gift of tongues can be a known language. The gift of tongues can very well be a known language, and there are Pentecostals on this forum who have witnessed this truth. So painting the entire Pentecostal denomination with this "version" of tongues you attribute to them is just wrong.


I know some Baptist missionaries with the gift of tongues who can preach the gospel in Spanish to Spanish speaking people. They can also obviously interpret English into Spanish for their English only speaking ministry partners.

The folks who spoke in tongues in Acts 2 did not go to a university beforehand to learn how to do it. Additionally, Paul stated that even he didn't understand the tongues he spoke, so these weren't tongues that he learned through his education.

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 01:53 AM
The folks who spoke in tongues in Acts 2 did not go to a university beforehand to learn how to do it. Additionally, Paul stated that even he didn't understand the tongues he spoke, so these weren't tongues that he learned through his education.

The tongues in Acts chapter 2 was a 1 time event in history to add 1000's of people to the body of Christ in one day.

Name another place in scripture where the Holy Spirit spoke through the apostles in every man's language and dialect all at the same time? There is no other event in scripture like this, or in recorded Church history either. The tongues of fire in Acts chapter 2 was a 1 time event in history.

looking4jesus
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:07 AM
The tongues in Acts chapter 2 was a 1 time event in history to add 1000's of people to the body of Christ in one day.

Name another place in scripture where the Holy Spirit spoke through the apostles in every man's language and dialect all at the same time? There is no other event in scripture like this, or in recorded Church history either. The tongues of fire in Acts chapter 2 was a 1 time event in history.

Exactly well said..I am afraid that VR just likes to argue I think it is a high for him. Hence I will not waste more time with him. I met many like him they will stick to their guns even when face to face with the absolute truth.
God Bless
Randy

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:09 AM
The tongues in Acts chapter 2 was a 1 time event in history to add 1000's of people to the body of Christ in one day.

Name another place in scripture where the Holy Spirit spoke through the apostles in every man's language and dialect all at the same time? There is no other event in scripture like this, or in recorded Church history either. The tongues of fire in Acts chapter 2 was a 1 time event in history.

Actually, the burden of proof is on your end. Name one spot in Scripture where it states that someone learned these tongues before speaking them. The fact is, there isn't one example in the Scriptures of this happening. Every occasion that we see in the Scriptures where someone spoke in tongues it was not according to any education that they received beforehand. You will not see this in Acts 2, Acts 10 or Acts 19. Likewise, you will not see that anywhere in Corinthians.

And again, the fact that Paul stated that even he didn't understand the tongues he spoke in eliminates that theory all together.

If it's learned . . . it's not a spiritual gift. You don't have to be a Christian to learn a language. Christians are not unique to learning. However, Christian's are unique to the power of the Holy Spirit working through them and using them despite their education.

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:12 AM
Exactly well said..I am afraid that VR just likes to argue I think it is a high for him. Hence I will not waste more time with him. I met many like him they will stick to their guns even when face to face with the absolute truth.
God Bless
Randy

You are correct. I will certainly stick to what the Scriptures say.

looking4jesus
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:23 AM
You are correct. I will certainly stick to what the Scriptures say.

Have your way then you will face Jesus sometime soon. So will all the holy rollers which I am sure is disgusting to God to see people falling on the floor, barking like animals speaking giberish yup that will be a special dy for sure when the lord Jesus sets the record straight.
Ok done for good now..really
God Bless you VR
Randy

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:28 AM
Have your way then you will face Jesus sometime soon. So will all the holy rollers which I am sure is disgusting to God to see people falling on the floor, barking like animals speaking giberish yup that will be a special dy for sure when the lord Jesus sets the record straight.
Ok done for good now..really
God Bless you VR
Randy

Okay . . . I don't roll on floors, bark like an animal or speak gibberish.

However, I would appreciate it if you would change your tone and actually address the topic of the thread. We are not here to get personal with one another. That is not at all how our Lord wants us to conduct ourselves. If you want to continue on please address the topic of the thread and take the personal shots out of your posts. Thanks.

looking4jesus
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:38 AM
Okay . . . I don't roll on floors, bark like an animal or speak gibberish.

However, I would appreciate it if you would change your tone and actually address the topic of the thread. We are not here to get personal with one another. That is not at all how our Lord wants us to conduct ourselves. If you want to continue on please address the topic of the thread and take the personal shots out of your posts. Thanks.

All i Said was the truth we all will face Jesus someday. What kind of personal shot is that. The holy rollers part of my post was from own Obsveration I have no ide why you thought that part was directed to you

God Bless
Randy

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:46 AM
All i Said was the truth we all will face Jesus someday. What kind of personal shot is that. The holy rollers part of my post was from own Obsveration I have no ide why you thought that part was directed to you

God Bless
Randy

Regardless of who it is directed to such a term is derogatory in nature and really serves no edifying purpose. This term will do nothing but offend people and really has no place on these forums. We are not here to offend. We are here to discuss the Scriptures in love and come to a knowledge of the truth.

Now, let's get this thread back on topic. If there is nothing left to be said then leave it at that.

looking4jesus
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:51 AM
Regardless of who it is directed to, such a term is derogatory in nature and really serves no edifying purpose. This term will do nothing but offend people and really has no place on these forums. We are not here to offend. We are here to discuss the Scriptures in love and come to a knowledge of the truth.

Now, let's get this thread back on topic. If there is nothing left to be said then leave it at that.

What term holy rollers?
Your correct about the knowledge of truth as I said it was my own Observation so you have a problem with people sharing if it offends anyone or pushes a button then something is going on with that person.
I do not take pot shots at anyone if the truth is offense to you then keep it to yourself I just shared what I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears.
God Bless
Randy

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:57 AM
What term holy rollers?

Yes . . .

The term has no place on these forums.


Your correct about the knowledge of truth as I said it was my own Observation so you have a problem with people sharing if it offends anyone or pushes a button then something is going on with that person.
I do not take pot shots at anyone if the truth is offense to you then keep it to yourself I just shared what I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears.
God Bless
Randy

This is the last time I'm going to ask . . .

Let's get this thread back on track and address the topic. Addressing me is not going to get this thread anywhere, and referring to others with derogatory names is only going to close the thread.

Do you have anything else you would like to share regarding the topic of this thread?

ears2hear
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:02 AM
You are welcome.:hug:

I am all too familiar with the Pentecostal version of tongues(glossa).

They told me since I do not speak in their version of tongues, that I don't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They told me not only is it the only initial evidence, it's the only evidence. They have no scriptural evidence to back this up of course, because the gift of languages is the last in rank, not the first in rank(1 Cor 12:28). First in rank is apostles(apostolos) not tongues(glossa). So if they used scripture, then if you were not apostle, then you would not be baptized in the Holy Spirit, which of course we know this is not true either.

Acts 11:13-17.


And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?


Where are the Pentecostal tongues(Unknown Heavenly Languages) in this baptism of the Holy Spirit event? Where are any spiritual gift evidences for this matter?

Spiritual gifts(tongues included) are not the evidence of the baptism, boldly proclaiming the gospel of Christ is the evidence.

Acts chapter 2 is KNOWN languages, not UNKNOWN languages. Pentecost is known languages, not mystery languages of Heavenly origin.Too bad Pentecostals don't realize this fact.

:hug:
We were also told that we were struggling in our walk because we had not been filled with the power of the Holy Spirit and given this gift that was like a direct line to God. Soooooo....I know how off some Pentecostals can be and I said some...not all. I believe that true tongues is indeed a known tongue..there is no need as you said, for someone to speak gibberish in a congregation that speaks the same language and I have experienced God speak through man...so I know it to be true.
I still struggle in understanding the prayer language and all that stuff.:(

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:07 AM
there is no need as you said, for someone to speak gibberish in a congregation that speaks the same language

I'm not sure why it is being referred to as "gibberish", but Paul tells us the reason in 1 Corinthians 14 . . .

1 Corinthians 14:4
He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

The Lord often does a lot of things we may question. For example, why does the Spirit intercede for us with "groanings" as the Scriptures proclaim? What's the significance of these "groanings"? Why can't the Spirit just intercede for us in some other fashion that would be easier to explain with our logic? The reason, quite frankly, is that God is not accountable to man's logic.

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:36 AM
Actually, the burden of proof is on your end. Name one spot in Scripture where it states that someone learned these tongues before speaking them.

Here is your scriptural proof right from Paul.


1 Corinthians 12:28 (http://bibleforums.org/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1%20Corinthians+ 12:28&version=9)
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

"hath set" in the Greek is (tithemi) it means placed.

"first" in the Greek is (proton) it means first in rank or time.

So God placed some in the church with gifts they had from leadership to bilingual people, and ranked them in order from first to last. The bilingual people were last in rank. It says God placed then in the Church, not made them in the Church, so as you can see, they already had the gifts naturally. Paul goes on to tell the Church at Corinth to covet the "best gifts". Paul wrote the letter to the Church, not an individual person in the church, so he tells the entire Church to covet the best gifts.

"best" in the Greek is (kreitton) it means more useful.

"gifts" in the Greek is (charisma) it means unmerited favor. In other words, you have what gifts you have already. They are unmerited.

As you can see, tongues(glossa) is last in rank, and is the least useful. Seek the best gifts, or more useful to the Church gifts as Paul said.

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:43 AM
Here is your scriptural proof right from Paul.


1 Corinthians 12:28 (http://bibleforums.org/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1%20Corinthians+ 12:28&version=9)
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

"hath set" in the Greek is (tithemi) it means placed.

"first" in the Greek is (proton) it means first in rank or time.

So God placed some in the church with gifts they had from leadership to bilingual people, and ranked them in order from first to last. The bilingual people were last in rank. It says God placed then in the Church, not made them in the Church, so as you can see, they already had the gifts naturally. Paul goes on to tell the Church at Corinth to covet the "best gifts". Paul wrote the letter to the Church, not an individual person in the church, so he tells the entire Church to covet the best gifts.

"best" in the Greek is (kreitton) it means more useful.

"gifts" in the Greek is (charisma) it means unmerited favor. In other words, you have what gifts you have already. They are unmerited.

As you can see, tongues(glossa) is last in rank, and is the least useful. Seek the best gifts, or more useful to the Church gifts as Paul said.

So, you're claiming that Paul had the gift of an apostle naturally? You're saying that those who operated as prophets were prophets before they ever came to the Lord? This was something they just had naturally? Is the fact that I'm a pastor now because I was somehow gifted with this even before I came to know the Lord?

This is not even close to any Scriptural backing for your position, Lamplighter. Such a teaching is heretical, IMO. Paul was nowhere near an apostle in his own ability. In fact, he proclaims several times in the Scriptures that the only reason he is an apostle is through the grace of God. He didn't receive that grace of God until he accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior by faith.

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:51 AM
So, you're claiming that Paul had the gift of an apostle naturally? You're saying that those who operated as prophets were prophets before they ever came to the Lord? This was something they just had naturally? Is the fact that I'm a pastor now because I was somehow gifted with this even before I came to know the Lord?

This is not even close to any Scriptural backing for your position, Lamplighter. Such a teaching is heretical, IMO. Paul was nowhere near an apostle in his own ability. In fact, he proclaims several times in the Scriptures that the only reason he is an apostle is through the grace of God. He didn't receive that grace of God until he accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior by faith.

Paul was placed in his position by God with unmerited favor. He already had the ability, just not the Holy Spirit to direct him in his ability. Before Paul's conversion, he was the best there was at what he did, getting Christians convicted of crimes against the empire. After Paul's conversion he was the best there was at what he did, convicting the empire that they needed Christ. Paul had the natural gift to spread any message, no matter what that message was.

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:53 AM
Paul was placed in his position by God with unmerited favor. He already had the ability, just not the Holy Spirit to direct him in his ability. Before Paul's conversion, he was the best there was at what he did, getting Christians convicted of crimes against the empire. After Paul's conversion he was the best there was at what he did, convicting the empire that they needed Christ. Paul had the natural gift to spread any message, no matter what that message was.

Just because you can "spread the message" it does not make you an apostle. I've "spread the message" to quite a few people in my day and that doesn't make me an apostle. What about Paul before his conversion made him an apostle, and what Scripture do you have to back your position?

And again, how do you explain the fact that even Paul stated that he didn't understand the tongues he spoke in?

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 04:02 AM
And again, how do you explain the fact that even Paul stated that he didn't understand the tongues he spoke in?

Paul was both a Jew and an educated Roman citizen. He was well versed in quite a few different languages. He even wrote the Corinthian church and told them he spoke in more languages then any of them did. Paul used many superlative adjectives and adverbs in his letters to the Corinthian church, such as saying though I speak in the language of angels for example, to get his point across about their wrongful seeking of the gifts over their love and charity. Paul was a master at using superlatives in his letters.

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 04:05 AM
Paul was both a Jew and an educated Roman citizen. He was well versed in quite a few different languages. He even wrote the Corinthian church and told them he spoke in more languages then any of them did. Paul used many superlative adjectives and adverbs in his letters to the Corinthian church, such as saying though I speak in the language of angels for example, to get his point across about their wrongful seeking of the gifts over their love and charity. Paul was a master at using superlatives in his letters.

And yet with all these languages that Paul spoke through his education he stated very clearly that even he did not understand the tongues he was speaking when he addressed the Corinthians in chapter 14.

Again, why would Paul not understand these tongues that you claim he learned through his education? I know a bit of Spanish, and I understand the words that I know. I know that if I say amigo I'm talking about a friend. I know that if I say hola I'm saying hello. Why didn't Paul understand these tongues that you claim he learned through his education?

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 04:19 AM
And yet with all these languages that Paul spoke through his education he stated very clearly that even he did not understand the tongues he was speaking when he addressed the Corinthians in chapter 14.

Again, why would Paul not understand these tongues that you claim he learned through his education? I know a bit of Spanish, and I understand the words that I know. I know that if I say amigo I'm talking about a friend. I know that if I say hola I'm saying hello. Why didn't Paul understand these tongues that you claim he learned through his education?

Paul is using superlatives. He is saying "if I" were to not understand etc.., not that he does not himself understand. Paul uses superlatives all through his letters to the Corinthian church. They were repeating languages that they heard in church that they did not understand themselves, or they understood what they were saying in the language they were speaking, but did not interpret the language to those that did not speak it. But Paul never did this in church himself, which is why he told the people in the church at Corinth to quit doing it.

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 04:26 AM
Paul is using superlatives. He is saying "if I" were to not understand etc.., not that he does not himself understand.

Actually, Paul doesn't use "if I" in 1 Corinthians 14 regarding the tongues he's speaking. He simply makes the statement that he would rather speak five words with his own understanding than ten thousand words in the tongues that he doesn't understand. He's comparing the prophecy that he does understand to the tongues that he doesn't. Doesn't say anything about "if I" in that passage.

divaD
Nov 23rd 2008, 04:51 AM
And yet with all these languages that Paul spoke through his education he stated very clearly that even he did not understand the tongues he was speaking when he addressed the Corinthians in chapter 14.

Again, why would Paul not understand these tongues that you claim he learned through his education? I know a bit of Spanish, and I understand the words that I know. I know that if I say amigo I'm talking about a friend. I know that if I say hola I'm saying hello. Why didn't Paul understand these tongues that you claim he learned through his education?



VR, overall, you state a good case, but what do you do with 1 Corinthians 14:21-22? BTw, this post is mostly directed at all your posts in this thread, and not specifically this one.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.


There is no way that the Pentecostal, nor the Charismatic tongues are in accordance with these two verses. If it weren't for these two verses, I would have to say that I would pretty much agree with most of your posts. So unless you can show how the Pentecostal tongues are in accordance to what is written in these two verses, I'm not sure if I can sincerely agree with your posts or not.

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 05:07 AM
There is no way that the Pentecostal, nor the Charismatic tongues are in accordance with these two verses. If it weren't for these two verses, I would have to say that I would pretty much agree with most of your posts. So unless you can show how the Pentecostal tongues are in accordance to what is written in these two verses, I'm not sure if I can sincerely agree with your posts or not.

Actually, I would make the statement that some of the Pentecostal and Charismatic tongues are in disagreement with those two verses. Look, I'm not denying in this thread that there is not error with the gift of tongues or that there are some folks who think they are operating in the real gift when in reality they are operating in nothing but the flesh. My argument here is that this is not the case with all of those claiming to operate in this gift.

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 05:27 AM
My argument here is that this is not the case with all of those claiming to operate in this gift.

I agree.

But the 90% of the rest of the false tongues gifts Christians make the 10% of the true tongues gifts Christians look bad. It's hard to pick the good fruit buried underneath all of the razor sharp thorns. The abuse and falsification of the gift of tongues has become so bad, I can no longer figure out the genuine from the fake, and neither can anybody else. Nobody i know who thinks they have the gift of tongues will admit to it being anything other then a supernatural unknown language from God, and they have no earthly idea what language it is. I have yet to meet a Christian that can identify the language they speak when it comes to Pentecostal tongues. This is why I have a problem with people practicing this in church today. They have no clue what they are saying. How can they say it's from God, when they don't know what they are even saying? Christ said every man will be judged by every idle word they say. If you don't know what you are saying, you best not say it.

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 05:30 AM
They have no clue what they are saying. How can they say it's from God, when they don't know what they are even saying?

But again, neither did Paul. Even he didn't understand it. However, that did not change the fact that it was from the Lord.

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 06:17 AM
But again, neither did Paul. Even he didn't understand it. However, that did not change the fact that it was from the Lord.

He understood it.

1 Cor 14:2

For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit(conjunction that means and) in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The Greek word for mysteries used here is (mysterion). It means hidden thing, not obvious to the understanding.

Unknown is in italics[] which means the translators added it to their translation. They had good intentions with it however, because they meant the language is unknown to the people receiving the message, not unknown to the messenger. So as you can see, if you speak to a person in a language they don't know, the message is a mystery(mysterion) to them, but not to God. God knows and understands all human languages.

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 06:21 AM
He understood it.

1 Cor 14:2

For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit(conjunction that means and) in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The Greek word for mysteries used here is (mysterion). It means hidden thing, not obvious to the understanding.

Unknown is in italics[] which means the translators added it to their translation. They had good intentions with it however, because they meant the language is unknown to the people receiving the message, not unknown to the messenger. So as you can see, if you speak to a person in a language they don't know, the message is a mystery(mysterion) to them, but not to God. God knows and understands all human languages.

I'm not referring to verse 2. Paul says that he doesn't understand them in verse 19.

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 07:02 AM
I'm not referring to verse 2. Paul says that he doesn't understand them in verse 19.


18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue.





Notice in verse 18 the translators didn't add [unknown] in their translation. This is because Paul was talking about himself being well versed in a variety of languages. Obviously, Paul knew all the languages he could speak. However, not all of the people he was ministering to knew them, which is why he would not speak to a mainly Greek speaking Corinthian church in the Aramaic language for example.


Had rather in verse 19 is (thelo) which means "have in mind or desire to."


understanding in the Greek is (nous) which means "the mind."


So, Paul is saying that he desires to teach others in Church by speaking to them in a language that they understand. Obviously he understands them hence the "understanding" part.

godsgirl
Nov 23rd 2008, 12:12 PM
"If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful-so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will pray with my spirit also, I will sing with my understanding and I will sing with my spirit also."
The Apostle Paul

Sounds pretty plain that Paul prayed in languages he did not know or understand. Same reason we all need to-to build up our faith. However, in church, tounges need the compainion gift of interpretation so that the church can be edified.
The name calling is really kind of childish here. My Grandma used to say people used the term "holy roller" when they meant someone who walks closer to God than they do.

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 06:12 PM
"If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful(akarpos)-so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will pray with my spirit also, I will sing with my understanding and I will sing with my spirit also."
The Apostle Paul

Sounds pretty plain that Paul prayed in languages he did not know or understand.

He didn't say he couldn't understand. Paul used a superlative "If I."

unfruitful(akarpos)- Not yielding what it ought to yield, barren, without fruit.

The verse before the one you quoted is talking about interpreting what you speak. Obviously speaking a foreign language in church without interpretation will be barren or unfruitful to the congregation, just as Paul said.

Context is the key for the "ENTIRE" chapter of 1 Cor 14. It's never speaking of unknown to all men languages, it's talking about man made languages unknown to the congregation(not the speaker), hence the need for an interpretation. Unknown is in [italics] because the translators added it to their translation, but it is not in the original texts, hence it's [].

JesusReignsForever
Nov 23rd 2008, 07:20 PM
I see these tounge threads can go on thru all eternity.... lol

godsgirl
Nov 24th 2008, 02:13 AM
Actually, Paul DID say he didn't understand his prayer in tongues-read the whole quote. (speaking of context)

I WILL PRAY with my mind and I WILL PRAY with my spirit also.

Lamplighter
Nov 24th 2008, 02:30 AM
Actually, Paul DID say he didn't understand his prayer in tongues-read the whole quote. (speaking of context)

I WILL PRAY with my mind and I WILL PRAY with my spirit also.

What does praying with your mind and spirit have to do with a foreign language you don't know? You lost me here?

godsgirl
Nov 24th 2008, 11:22 AM
What does praying with your mind and spirit have to do with a foreign language you don't know? You lost me here?

Praying "with your spirit" is praying in tongues-as we can see from the context.

Paul obviously does both.

If I pray in a tongue-my spirit prays What shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will also pray with my spirit.

Paul even said, "I thank my God I speak in tongues more than all of you." and then added, "I want you all to speak in tongues".

Paul merely taught the Corithian church that praying in tongues was for private prayer and being used in the gift of tongues was for the church. Two seperate things-prayer is speaking to God and the giftd are for "when you come togehter"
Tonges when manifested as a spiritual gift must be accompained by the companion gift of interpretation.

Lamplighter
Nov 24th 2008, 07:44 PM
Praying "with your spirit" is praying in tongues-as we can see from the context.

Paul obviously does both.

If I pray in a tongue-my spirit prays What shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will also pray with my spirit.

Paul even said, "I thank my God I speak in tongues more than all of you." and then added, "I want you all to speak in tongues".

Paul merely taught the Corithian church that praying in tongues was for private prayer and being used in the gift of tongues was for the church. Two seperate things-prayer is speaking to God and the giftd are for "when you come togehter"
Tonges when manifested as a spiritual gift must be accompained by the companion gift of interpretation.

Ok gotcha.

I can see you are a hard core Pentecostal Christian.

We are on polar opposite grounds when it comes to the gift of tongues.

We are still in the body Christ together which is all that matters anyway.:hug:

godsgirl
Nov 24th 2008, 08:10 PM
Just a "hard core" Bible believer. Be blessed!;)